#0044 - Elon Musk, Pt. 1

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Speaker 7 On this episode, we cover the Joe Rogan Experience number 2404 with guest Elon Musk. Again,

Speaker 7 the No Rogan experience starts now.

Speaker 7 Welcome back to the show. This is a show where two podcasters with now 129 hours of Joe Rogan experience get to know Joe Rogan.

Speaker 7 It's a show for anyone who's curious about Joe Rogan and his guests and their claims, and also for anyone who just wants to understand Joe's ever-growing media influence. I'm Michael Marshall.

Speaker 7 I'm joined by Cecil Cicarello. And today, we're going to be covering Joe's October 31st interview with Elon Musk.
So, Cecil, how did Joe introduce Elon in the show notes this time?

Speaker 8 This time? Well, this time he says Elon Musk is a business magnate, designer, and engineer known for his work in electronic vehicles, private space flight, and artificial intelligence.

Speaker 8 His portfolio of companies includes Tesla, SpaceX, Neuralink, X, and several others.

Speaker 7 Now, obviously, we covered Joe speaking with Elon in the last series. We weren't expecting to come back and cover him him quite so soon, but this episode really required our attention.

Speaker 7 So we probably talked a lot about what Elon is about when we covered him previously, but is there anything else we should know before we get into this interview?

Speaker 8 Well, you know, since he's made that appearance, he has, he came to talk about Doge and sort of U.S. government programs last time.

Speaker 8 He's left Doge and has gone back to working his 25 different jobs very badly since then.

Speaker 7 Yes, he has. He has.
So what did they talk about on this episode? Well, so here's

Speaker 8 spoiler alert. This is going to be a two-parter episode.
We can't do this in a single episode. This was

Speaker 8 three hours and 15 minutes of tape, and there was so much misinformation that was spread in this. There's just no way you can cover it in just one short episode of our show.

Speaker 8 So we're going to do two main events, an undercard and a toll box, all spread out over two different shows. In this episode,

Speaker 8 they talk about Sam Altman, AI, murdering AI whistleblowers, cyber trucks, SpaceX, trans issues, but not really in any positive way, immigration, democratic corruption, homelessness, and

Speaker 8 whether or not we are in a simulation.

Speaker 7 Yeah, so this time for the main event, we're going to be picking up their discussion of homelessness to really understand what Elon and Joel think about unhoused people.

Speaker 7 But before we get to that, obviously we've got to say a huge thank you to our Area 51 all Access Past patrons, some of whom we met at QET at the live show, which was so much fun.

Speaker 7 They are Blue Ridge True Crime Podcast, Dr.

Speaker 7 Andrew Gibson, the online physics tutor, Angie Matkey, Mike Fish, Carissa Gunderson, Slotty Bardfast, Stargazer97, The Fallacious Trump Podcast, Chonky Cat in Chicago Punches Nazis, Grotius, the End of All Things, Scott Laird, Am I a Robot?

Speaker 7 Capture says no, but maintenance records say yes. Darlene, stoned banana, fine, I'll just put normal names.
Eleven Gruthius. Laura Williams.
No, not that one. The other one.
Cindy Lynch.

Speaker 7 Yes, that's Cindy Lynch. Fred R.
Gruthius. Don't thank me.
Your show is just worth investment. Billionaire oligarchs.
Normal names. And I think a more normal name is not sufficient.
I'm going with.

Speaker 7 They all subscribe to patreon.com forward slash no rogan. You can do that too.
Every one of our patrons will get early access to our episodes.

Speaker 7 They'll get a special patron-only bonus segment every single week, week, too. This week, we're going to be talking about Elon's two favorite children, Grok and the Cybertruck.

Speaker 7 So, you can check that out at patreon.com forward slash no Rokin.

Speaker 7 Now, it's time for our main event.

Speaker 7 It's time. It's time.
Ron Toddins.

Speaker 4 Got it.

Speaker 7 So, a huge thank you to this week's veteran voice of the podcast. That was Veist Rhino of the Weist Rhino YouTube channel announcing our main event.

Speaker 7 Remember that you can also be on the show if you just send us a recording of you giving us your best rendition of It's Time. You can send that to no Roganpod at gmail.com.

Speaker 7 You can also tell us how you'd like to be credited. But now we're going to talk about homelessness.

Speaker 8 Yeah, they spend quite a bit of time in this episode talking about homelessness and

Speaker 8 you can really tell how they feel about it through these. And we only have a short amount of clips for this, you know,

Speaker 8 under 10 clips, but you get an opportunity to really see how they feel about it. So we're going to start talking about homelessness, but how it sort of relates to Twitter.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, I said at the time, like, I think that like

Speaker 4 the reason for acquiring Twitter is because

Speaker 4 it was.

Speaker 4 It was causing destruction at a civilizational level.

Speaker 4 It was,

Speaker 4 I mean, I tweeted on Twitter at the time time that

Speaker 4 it is,

Speaker 4 you know, it's worm tongue for the world.

Speaker 4 You know, like worm tongue from Lord of the Rings, where he would just sort of like whisper these, you know, terrible things to the king, so the king would believe these things that weren't true.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 unfortunately,

Speaker 4 Twitter really got, it got,

Speaker 4 like, the...

Speaker 4 The woke mob, essentially, controlled Twitter.

Speaker 4 And they were pushing a nihilistic, anti-civilizational mind virus to the world.

Speaker 4 And you can see the results of that mind virus on the streets of San Francisco,

Speaker 4 where

Speaker 4 downtown San Francisco looks like a zombie apocalypse.

Speaker 4 It's bad.

Speaker 4 So we don't want the whole world to be a zombie apocalypse. But

Speaker 4 that was essentially, they were pushing this very negative, nihilistic, untrue worldview on the world, and it was causing a lot of damage.

Speaker 4 the stunning thing about it is how few people course-corrected.

Speaker 4 A bunch of people woke up and realized what was going on, people that were all on board with like woke ideology in maybe 2015 or 16, and then and then eventually it comes to affect them, or they see it in their workplace, or they see it, and they're like, Well, we've got to stop this.

Speaker 4 A bunch of people did, but a lot of people never course-corrected.

Speaker 8 I want to mention, as we're working our way through this, when I play these clips, I do alter them slightly because I cut out the pauses. I use a program that cuts the pauses very specifically out.

Speaker 8 I don't do it individually for each clip. I just run it through a program that does it for me.
So understand

Speaker 8 that this is more articulate than it was live.

Speaker 8 Like this is, this sounds more together because he's not pausing for what some of these clips genuinely were cutting 20% of the clip off just with, because I just don't want to make the audience wait that long for him to finally get to the point.

Speaker 8 So I wanted to mention that before we get started.

Speaker 7 Yeah, it's got a real kind of Peter Thial kind of vibe going on. Teal will get quite a few name checks in this, but the speaking style feels a lot like Peter Thiel speaking style to me.

Speaker 8 It certainly does.

Speaker 8 Now, he starts out by saying, you know,

Speaker 8 we'll get to homelessness, but I do want to mention the comment about Twitter here where he says, well, you know, Twitter, I bought Twitter because it was causing destruction at a civilizational level and it was worm tongue for the world.

Speaker 8 It's like, oh, bro, it still is all of those things. It's literally, in fact, it's probably way worse now than it ever was before.

Speaker 7 Yeah, no, absolutely. And the thing is, he's talking about worm tongue.
This is his first Lord of the Rings reference. It's not his last Lord of the Rings reference in this conversation.

Speaker 7 But that actually came as something of a welcome relief because...

Speaker 7 All of his prior references in this, this like 45 minutes into the conversation, all of them up to this point before that were all just memes that he saw that he was telling Joe about.

Speaker 7 When he needs to reference something, he'd say, oh, it's a bit like that meme, which really does kind of make you question what his media diet is like. For sure.

Speaker 7 But again, what we're doing is we're rewriting history here. And we're going to see this throughout the conversation in both this and the next episode.

Speaker 7 We're going to see Musk doing Musk and Joe doing quite a lot of rewriting of history. Pre-Musk Twitter was a woke-controlled hellscape, apparently.

Speaker 7 Well, that ought to be news to Jack Dorsey and the team of moderators he understaffed. As Twitter, as you say, completely helped destroy various elections and various kind of democracies.

Speaker 7 Like Twitter wasn't really a super woke place before Elon came along, but obviously what he did to it really, really changed that significantly.

Speaker 8 Absolutely.

Speaker 8 I also, the reason why I'm playing this clip too, you know, there is a small piece of this where he does talk about homelessness.

Speaker 8 He says, you know, you go to the woke mind virus caused San Francisco to go on its sort of downfall. And if you look around San Francisco, it's like the zombie apocalypse.

Speaker 8 That is not a reference to anything but homeless people, right? So he is talking very specifically about people that are unhoused.

Speaker 8 And you can sort of tell, I think, that Elon Musk has no idea what it's like to be around somebody who isn't a billionaire or somebody who's ultra-rich.

Speaker 7 Yeah, yeah, completely.

Speaker 7 It's almost as if his entire upbringing in one of the countries in the world that has the largest disparity between the rich and the poor was spent wholly in one of those groups and it wasn't the poor.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 8 Okay. That's a good guess.
All right. So now he's going to continue talking about the zombie apocalypse and introduce a concept he calls homeless drug zombie farmers.

Speaker 4 People don't understand like the homeless thing because it sort of preys on people's empathy. And I think we should have empathy and we should try to help people.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 4 the homeless industrial complex is really,

Speaker 4 it's dark, man.

Speaker 4 It should be,

Speaker 4 that...

Speaker 4 That network of NGOs should be called like the drug zombie farmers

Speaker 4 because

Speaker 4 the more homeless people, and really like when you meet like somebody who's totally dead inside, shuffling along down the street with a needle dangling out of their leg,

Speaker 4 homeless is the wrong word.

Speaker 4 Homeless implies that somebody got a little behind on their mortgage payments, and if they just got a job offer, they'd be back on their feet.

Speaker 4 But someone who's, I mean, you see these videos of people that are just shuffling, you know, they're on the fentanyl, they're like, you know, taking a dump in the middle of the street, you know,

Speaker 4 they got like open source and stuff.

Speaker 4 They're not like one drop offer away from getting back on their feet. Right.
This is not a homeless. Homeless is a propaganda word.
Right.

Speaker 4 So, and then

Speaker 4 these sort of charities,

Speaker 4 of course,

Speaker 4 they get money proportionate to the number of homeless people or number of drug zombies. So their incentive structure is to maximize.
the number of drug zombies, not minimize it.

Speaker 7 So here we are, He's talking about his, what he's calling the homeless industrial complex, which is a very dark thing to believe exists.

Speaker 7 We're going to go into exactly how he feels that industrial complex works. But what I think is interesting is he says we should have empathy.

Speaker 7 And then he outlines all the ways in which he shouldn't have empathy.

Speaker 7 We should have empathy, but not if it means me doing something, not if it means taxing me, not if it means investing in the kind of safety nets that will stop people becoming drug zombies, as he decides to call them.

Speaker 7 And what is his point here? He's saying that to say that they're homeless means they're kind of, you implies that they're only a little bit behind on an issue. They're a single job offer away.

Speaker 7 And these people aren't a single job offer away from being

Speaker 7 back on their feet. Well, what is his point? That the people who are further from security than a single job offer are dead inside, zombies, therefore non-humans, therefore ineligible for our empathy.

Speaker 7 It feels like that's the dichotomy he's setting up.

Speaker 7 And I don't think the majority of people who are going to find themselves in an unhoused position aren't just one mortgage payment away and aren't just one job offer away.

Speaker 7 There's all sorts of other things that are going to be intersecting in their lives that are keeping them in that position too.

Speaker 8 I think that's a great point, Marsh. And I think what is really happening here is that he's classifying a group of people that are like...

Speaker 8 There's an entirety of homeless people, and then there's sort of an acceptable level of homeless, and then there's an acceptable level of, or then there's an unacceptable level.

Speaker 8 And I think what he's trying to say is, is that the acceptable level of homeless, it's okay to have empathy for those people. They're just, they're very close to being on their feet.

Speaker 8 And those people, we can, we're okay having empathy for those. But I don't think

Speaker 8 it really does feel like he's saying, we probably shouldn't have empathy for the other people.

Speaker 8 We probably shouldn't have empathy for the person who he described as somebody who's on drugs, who's walking down the street, who's filthy and might have a needle or needle marks or something.

Speaker 8 It makes it seem like he's saying those people are too far gone. Those people are people we shouldn't have empathy for.
At least that's how it sounds, because he sets up sort of a dichotomy there.

Speaker 7 Yeah, either they're too far gone or they deserve it because they're on drugs, because they're dirty, because they're, as he says, taking a dump in the middle of the street.

Speaker 7 It's like he thinks there are the worthy poor and the unworthy poor. And the worthy poor are the ones who don't have other issues going on.

Speaker 7 So it sort of feels like if you're homeless because you are having a mental health crisis and there isn't a social safety net or you haven't got the access to a good job because you haven't had the good education, because you haven't been from the right background, those are the people who are kind of deserving of their lot.

Speaker 7 It's only if you're one of the good guys who happens to have fallen momentarily on hard times that you're worthy of the empathy. Everyone else, you're just a drug zombie and you don't matter really.

Speaker 8 Yeah. And this also feels like something a billionaire would say, right? There's, what's the profit motive here? Why, why are, why are people just helping other people?

Speaker 8 Why would someone want to do that? It's because he's greedy and he's projecting that on everybody else. And he's saying, well, everybody's greedy out there, right? Everybody's like me, right?

Speaker 8 Everybody would look into this and say, there's got to be a for-profit reason for this. Not just a lot of people get into nonprofits because they just want to help other people.
And they want to,

Speaker 8 if homelessness ended tomorrow, there's a lot of those organizations that would be so excited and so happy that it was gone.

Speaker 7 Yeah, yeah, that's completely the case, I think, is that he just can't envisage a world where there isn't profit going on here.

Speaker 7 And it's also this thing where he just does not understand what he's talking about because it's not something he's looked into.

Speaker 7 But as we will come to in the toolbox section, he will constantly make statements where he's expressing a huge amount of confidence in something he just does not have any information on.

Speaker 7 So, you know, are charities really getting money proportionate to the number of homeless people they're helping?

Speaker 7 Maybe they are in some places in the sense that cities with a larger unhoused population are going to attract a charity that's more dedicated to helping because it's a bigger need there.

Speaker 7 It's kind of of a supply and demand thing almost is that this is the need and so somebody will come in and fill it. But how many charities get paid more the less impact they have on an issue?

Speaker 7 So like, you know, you're a homeless charity, but your work isn't in any way fixing or helping out in a homeless crisis, homelessness crisis. You don't get paid more in that situation.

Speaker 7 It's like Elon seems to think there is no oversight and no accountability to charities. He's thinking of corporations, sir.
That's what he's thinking of. Charities have oversight.

Speaker 7 They have accountability.

Speaker 8 Okay, so now he's going to talk about how they keep people homeless.

Speaker 4 That's why they don't arrest the drug dealers. Because if they arrest the drug dealers, the drug zombies leave.
So they know who the drug dealers are.

Speaker 4 They don't arrest them on purpose because otherwise the drug zombies would leave and they would stop getting money from the state of California and from all the charities. Wait a minute.
So

Speaker 4 is that real? So they're in coordination with law enforcement on this? Yeah. So

Speaker 4 how do they have those meetings? They're all in cahoots. Well, when you find this, it's like such.

Speaker 4 This is a diabolical scam.

Speaker 8 This is a great question. Joe asks, how do they have those meetings, Elon? And then he says, oh, they're all in cahoots.
That's literally his answer to this. And he will never return to this.

Speaker 8 He will never explain how these people communicate with each other,

Speaker 8 how somehow the

Speaker 8 charities

Speaker 8 can influence policy on how police officers act in a city. He's literally making this up as he goes along.

Speaker 7 Yeah, he absolutely is.

Speaker 7 And he's saying it incredibly confidently to a point where people assume he must have a clue about this if he's going to go on the biggest podcast in the world and say something like this, which is something that's outside of his area of expertise, but he's saying it very confidently here.

Speaker 7 Even Joe is surprised that he's suggesting that there is a deliberate effort coordinated by the charities to not arrest drug dealers so that the drug dealers can still be there to attract the drug zombies in order for those charities to have enough numbers of zombies to be there to be helping and keep the money flowing in.

Speaker 7 That's the world he's putting forward here. This is not remotely reflective of reality.
And even Joe is able to ask a question, but Elon just deflects that question.

Speaker 7 How are they having the meetings? They're in cahoots. That's not a how.
That is not a how.

Speaker 8 When you say it, when you just explicitly just explained it like that, it sounds like genuinely the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my entire life that someone actually believes this or is saying this.

Speaker 8 I don't even know if he actually believes it, right?

Speaker 8 I can't be sure whether Elon thinks this is true or whether Elon is just saying this because he just has something to say and he just wants to feel important for a minute.

Speaker 8 I don't know why Elon's saying this, but it's so, when you say it out loud like that, it just feels like all you have to do is think about it for 30 seconds and know that this can't be the case.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I'm normally one to say that we should extend the principle of charity to assume that somebody's always arguing in good faith unless we can see a good reason why they're not.

Speaker 7 In this case, that principle of charity actually reflects worse on Elon because if Elon Musk believes all of this that he's saying, this suggests that he's not a particularly strong critical thinker and that his diet of where he brings information is incredibly poisoned and he doesn't bother really thinking about it because this is such a, as you say, factually on the face of it, obviously wrong idea that for him to genuinely believe this is more damning than if he was just saying this just to fill dead air.

Speaker 7 Yeah, right, right.

Speaker 8 Okay, so now they're going to start, they're going to shift their focus. They are going to talk a little about a little bit about DAs, how they prosecute people, things like that.

Speaker 4 So and San Francisco has got this tax, this gross receipts tax,

Speaker 4 which

Speaker 4 is not even on revenue, it's on old transactions, which is why Stripe and Square

Speaker 4 and a whole bunch of financial companies had to move out of San Francisco because it wasn't a tax on revenue, it's taxed on transactions.

Speaker 4 So if you do like, you know, trillions of dollars transactions, it's not revenue, you're taxed on any money going through the system in San Francisco.

Speaker 4 So, like Jack Dorsey pointed this out, and they said, like, look, they had to have to move square from San Francisco to Oakland, I think.

Speaker 4 Stripe had to move from San Francisco to South San Francisco, different city.

Speaker 4 And that money goes to the homeless industrial complex, that tax that was passed.

Speaker 4 So,

Speaker 4 there's billions of dollars that go, as you pointed out, billions of dollars every year that go to

Speaker 4 these

Speaker 4 non-governmental organizations that are funded by the state.

Speaker 4 It's not clear how to turn this off.

Speaker 4 It's a self-licking ice cream cone situation.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 they get this money. The money is proportionate to the number of homeless people

Speaker 4 or number of drug zombies, essentially.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 they try to actually increase. Because

Speaker 4 in some cases,

Speaker 4 somebody did an analysis. When you add up all the money that's flowing, they're getting close to a million dollars per homeless per drug zombie.
It's like $900,000, something.

Speaker 4 Like, some crazy amount of money is going to these organizations. So, if, if, so, so, they want to keep people just barely alive.
They need to keep them in the area so they get the revenue.

Speaker 4 Uh, uh, so and it, so that's why, like I said, they don't arrest the drug dealers because otherwise the drug zombies would leave. Um,

Speaker 4 and and and and they, but, but they don't want them to have too much. If they get too much drugs, then they die.
So they're kept in this sort of perpetual zone of being addicted,

Speaker 4 but just barely alive. So how is this coordinated with like DAs, DAs that don't prosecute people? So

Speaker 4 when they hire the, or they push, so they, they fund the campaigns of the most progressive, most out there left-wing DAs.

Speaker 8 So he lays out at the very beginning why these companies left. They left because of taxes, right? They're trying to paint it, I think, throughout this as if this is a dangerous community.

Speaker 8 It's a place where

Speaker 8 it's unsavory. It's not a place you'd want to do business, that type of thing.
But what really happened was they were paying a lot of money on taxes.

Speaker 8 They were paying taxes to the city, and that's why they left. That's the underlying reason.
And he'll, of course, what he's going to try to say is that that money is wasteful, right?

Speaker 8 He's going to try to say, well, they were taxing them and and they wasted that money on trying to combat homelessness instead of just saying like that, instead of just saying, I'm greedy and I want more money.

Speaker 8 He's going to try to sort of devalue what the state did with it as if what he would have done with that money or what those other people would have done with that money would have been better than what the state actually did with it.

Speaker 8 So I think that's an important piece here.

Speaker 7 I think that's true. But I think even then, he's welcome to say, I think that's a waste of money.
He's welcome to say, I don't want money from corporations going to try and fight homelessness.

Speaker 7 Those are opinions he's very welcome to have, very welcome to express.

Speaker 7 He can even bring some evidence that he thinks that money being invested in those charities isn't the best way to combat homelessness or that he doesn't care about homelessness.

Speaker 7 All of those opinions he'd be welcome to express. What he's doing instead is positing this.

Speaker 7 crazy conspiracy theory where the charities are deliberately in cahoots with DAs and the police and drug dealers in order to farm drug zombies in order to keep the money coming in.

Speaker 7 And that isn't something that's okay to do. Like he either believes that or he's willing to say it in this interview because it supports his other positions, his other opinions.

Speaker 7 But express your opinions. Don't invent this fantasy world of this cyclical economy you've invented just in order to justify why you don't want to be paying taxes on stuff.

Speaker 8 Yeah. And one reason why you would create this or follow this or prescribe to this very specific conspiracy theory is it doesn't make you out to be the villain and the greedy villain.

Speaker 8 It makes you out to be somebody who's actually the hero in this situation. I'm not willing to give money to these people because they're actually hurting people.

Speaker 8 Those people are actually hurting other people.

Speaker 8 And I'm willing to just keep that money for myself, which is way better than us continually farming these homeless people out there and turning them into drug zombies.

Speaker 8 You know, at a certain point, too, it just gets gross and disgusting in how he's talking. He literally corrects himself in this while he's speaking.

Speaker 8 He says, you know, when you add up all the money that's flowing, they're giving close to a million dollars per homeless.

Speaker 7 And then he stops himself mid-sentence and says, per drug zombie so he stops himself from just saying someone is homeless and he has to correct himself to make it seem like you need to have less empathy for this other person yeah it's incredibly telling how he does not see people who are addicted to drugs as rounded human beings with their own lives he's even talking about how you know you have to keep giving them drug drugs otherwise the drug zombies leave but can't give them too much drugs or they'll die and it's like he's talking about a farm animal or something where you just tweak the levels to keep this docile compliant uh uh population uh following you but he's not seen them as human beings and he's even saying like you know they they the charities even because they get paid so much per uh per homeless person that they're dealing with uh they try to even increase is what he says they try to increase where is the evidence that the charities are actually trying to increase the level of homelessness even he backs away from that a little.

Speaker 7 He does not finish that sentence properly. He moves on to they analyzed how much money you get per homeless person and carries on that way.

Speaker 7 But pretty clearly, he was going to be saying there that the homeless charities are there to try and increase homelessness in San Francisco in order to keep getting more money.

Speaker 7 That's the worldview that he's putting forward here.

Speaker 8 And I just did a little bit of searching here and I found that the number of people that are homeless in

Speaker 8 California, in all of California, is 181,000 people, right? So that's across the state.

Speaker 8 Now, understand that 181,000 people, if they were in one place, would be one of the bigger cities cities in the United States. It would be a large city.

Speaker 8 It wouldn't be a small, tiny, it wouldn't be a hamlet, let's say. It would be a large city.
It would be a city you would know of. It might even have an international airport at a city that size.

Speaker 8 So this is a large amount of people that go there. And they go there for a number of reasons.
One of which is the weather. The weather in California is always nice.

Speaker 8 And so they go there very specifically because they have to live outside. And living outside sucks in the United States because most of it is cold for nine months of the year.

Speaker 8 So they go to places where they can actually exist outside and not die in the winter. So that's one of the reasons why California has a large homeless population.

Speaker 8 So I did a little bit of math just to look it up. And the amount of money that they spent over the last five fiscal years was $24 billion.

Speaker 8 So if you take that number and you divide it,

Speaker 8 it's $47,000 a person. Now that's not per year.
That's over a five-year time. That is, just so you know, guys, that's super well below the poverty line.

Speaker 8 If they were to just give that money to that person, right? It was well below.

Speaker 8 But what they're doing is they're paying for lots of different services for a whole bunch of people that are spread out all over the place.

Speaker 8 So it's not an easy problem that you can just throw money at and fix.

Speaker 8 There's a lot of other problems with our society that we have to fix in order for these people to get help and then not return to that position. But I think that's a really great point.

Speaker 7 I think doing the maths is really important there because you've pointed out it's $47,000

Speaker 7 over five years. Elon is saying it's $900,000 per homeless person.
Now, he's not saying where that's per year. Let's give him credit to say that even that is over five years.

Speaker 7 Even then he is 20 times out. So like he is not aware of the numbers here at all.
He's just trying to paint a scary picture.

Speaker 7 And wherever he's found this analysis about all the money that's flowing, there's somebody who's done the analysis.

Speaker 7 I'd argue if he has seen that analysis, that somebody is wrong or Elon has misremembered it.

Speaker 8 Yeah, yeah. And

Speaker 8 we're going to talk about the DAs, I think, a lot, but

Speaker 8 one of the things that happens in our country is that we prosecute people for like drug crimes when we should actually be helping them for like instead of prosecuting them and putting them in jail.

Speaker 8 And then maybe there's a cycle after they get out. We don't bother to help those people.
We just punish those people, right?

Speaker 8 So there's no, we have a vengeance-based system, not a not a rehabilitative system in our country when it comes to punishment. So, you know, he's saying it's the DAs.

Speaker 8 And it's like, well, maybe we shouldn't be prosecuting these people for drug crimes in the first place. Maybe we should be considering other ways.

Speaker 8 And I think that is one of the things that when they say these liberal DAs, they're not throwing the book at all the people that they should be or trying to prosecute as many people as possible.

Speaker 8 And they're trying to help more people. They don't see that as a good thing.
They see that as a bad thing. We need to inflict vengeance on these people for breaking the rules.

Speaker 7 Yeah. I mean, if somebody is addicted to alcohol, they don't go to prison for possession of alcohol or supply of alcohol.
They get treated in order to get off.

Speaker 7 And in that case, they are able to get back into a society where they're able to do more things and have a much more rich and fulfilling lives themselves and also in their local community.

Speaker 7 But yeah, I think it's worth just, again, pointing out the world that Elon seemed to think is existing. He's saying that the people who want drugs move to a place where there are drug dealers.

Speaker 7 That is what he's saying. The drug dealer, they can't arrest the drug dealer because all the drug zombies would just leave if there wasn't a drug dealer there.

Speaker 7 Like, like they are this kind of beacon that attracts, like they are the flame that attracts all of the moths.

Speaker 7 It's like he believes that demand wholly follows supply. Like once there is supply in place, the demand just emerges.

Speaker 7 I'd point out if you were to have a large amount of people who were desperately trying to get their hand on some drugs in a certain area and you took the drug dealer out, another drug dealer would probably find that community.

Speaker 7 There is other supply options out there. Right, exactly.
But what he's got is just a ludicrously simplistic worldview.

Speaker 7 He's conveniently flattening over any element of the homelessness crisis that is contributed to by mass inequality, by poverty, by mental health crises, healthcare crises, any of the other systemic issues that can contribute to a large

Speaker 7 homelessness crisis, a large homeless population of unhoused people.

Speaker 7 For him, no, it's just people are zombies. And they're zombies because of drug dealers, and the drug dealers exist because of charities.
And that explains the whole thing.

Speaker 7 Nobody has to do anything at that point. He doesn't have to help fund the kind of things that would tackle poverty issues and healthcare issues.
And through all of this, Joe isn't pushing back.

Speaker 7 Like Elon's talking an awful lot, but when Joe comes in, his pushback is to clarify and cover how it works. Oh, well, how does that work? Is it must be the DAs?

Speaker 7 Are the DAs the ones that are involved in doing this? Joe isn't saying, this makes no sense. This is ridiculous.

Speaker 7 He's kind of happy to go along and just try to flesh out the worldview rather than challenge it in any way. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 8 We're going to take a short break. We'll be back right after this.

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Speaker 8 All right, we're back. Let's jump right back in.
So the next piece is about a shooting that happened in Austin.

Speaker 8 And it revolves around someone who is homeless.

Speaker 4 They get them into office. We've got that issue in Austin, too, by the way.
Did you see that guy that got shot in the library? No.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I heard a guy got shot and killed in the library. I think that was just like last week or something.
Right.

Speaker 4 So some friends of mine were telling me that the library is unsafe. They took their kids to the library and there were like dangerous people in the library in Austin.

Speaker 4 And I was like, dangerous people in the library? Like that's a strange.

Speaker 4 basically get, like,

Speaker 4 drug zombies and drug zombies in the library. Oh, Jesus.

Speaker 4 And that's when someone got shot? Yeah, I believe this is...

Speaker 6 It should be on the news.

Speaker 4 We might be able to pull it up.

Speaker 4 But I think it was just in the last week or so that there was a shooting in the library in Austin.

Speaker 4 Because Austin's got, you know, it's the most liberal part of Texas that we're in right here.

Speaker 4 So suspect of all the shooting, Austin Park Library Saturday, is accused of another shooting at the Cap Metro bus earlier that day.

Speaker 4 According to an arrest warrant affidavit, Austin police arrested Harold Newton Keene, 55,

Speaker 4 shortly after the shooting in the library, which occurred around noon. One person sustained non-life-threatening injuries in the event.

Speaker 4 Before that shooting, Keene was accused of shooting another person in a bus incident and after reportedly pointing his gun at a child. So this is the fella down here.

Speaker 4 So look, we just seriously have a problem here.

Speaker 4 Yeah. You know, so I think one of the people might have died too that he shot.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 like one of the people I think I think did bleed out.

Speaker 4 But either way, it's like getting shot. It's bad.

Speaker 4 It says the victim told Pisa confronted the suspect who started to eat what appeared to be crystal methamphetamine.

Speaker 4 According to the affidavit, the victim advised the suspect began to trip out, at which time the victim exited the bus.

Speaker 4 Victim told the bus driver, hit the panic button, then exited the bus when he turned around the observer.

Speaker 4 Black male is now standing at the front of the bus with the gun pointed at him the victim advised the black male fired a single round which grazed his left hip so he shot at that dude and then another dude got shot in the library fun yeah i mean in the library yeah you know where you're supposed to be reading books um and there's a children's section in the library and says he pointed his gun at a kid

Speaker 7 so we have this whole story here First of all, it's kind of slightly fascinating to hear Elon Musk recount what happens in a public library, a building he has almost certainly never set foot inside.

Speaker 7 That is not the world from which he came. Notice he tells this story, starting with his friends.
He said, friends of mine told me they were going to the library. And then he tells this whole story.

Speaker 7 But to be clear, his friends weren't in the library when this shooting happened. His story here is, my friends told me they went to a library.
That is where that comes from.

Speaker 7 And then he's saying, oh, and also there was a shooting. And now it's like he just thinks that libraries are inherently dangerous because they are full of drug zombies.

Speaker 7 And that's, you know, his friends have been to a library and, oh, God, it was so awful, like drug zombies everywhere.

Speaker 7 This is French aristocracy levels of being out of touch with the average person's experience.

Speaker 8 It really is. And I just want to point out to people, maybe they might not be familiar with this or understand this.

Speaker 8 A library in the United States is one of the few places you can go to just. be and not have to pay to be there.

Speaker 8 It's one of those places that you can just hang out at and you can hang out there for an extended amount of time.

Speaker 7 Yeah, it's one of the places you can go to the bathroom without having to buy something as the more and more public bathrooms get commodified into commercial zones.

Speaker 7 You can only go there if you're a paying customer. Heaven prevent you try and use the bathroom in a Starbucks without being a paying customer.

Speaker 7 We all know from the conversation we've covered on this show what can happen there. Similarly, public libraries are the kind of places where you can go and use the internet.

Speaker 7 And that can be useful when so many things like government services go online and people don't have access to necessarily the internet and computers at home.

Speaker 7 And these are concerns that Elon Musk, I would argue, is probably quite ignorant of because these aren't concerns he's ever faced. This is just not in his world.

Speaker 8 And really, one of the things that I think they're trying to do throughout this entire piece is tie all of these things, you know, homelessness and the problems with crime and even this shooting with liberal policies.

Speaker 7 Yeah, exactly. And I think there are other types of policies that are exacerbating this whole issue.

Speaker 7 I mean, for example, top of my head, there was a mass public attack in the UK last week on a train, but only nine people were hurt and none of them were seriously hurt, none of them killed because the attacker had a knife and not a gun.

Speaker 7 Can you imagine if somebody who wants to kill people got on a train with a gun rather than a knife?

Speaker 7 We're not talking about this as a few people had to be in hospital for a little while and they're all released now.

Speaker 8 Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.

Speaker 8 The way he goes through this story, it makes it seem as if he was in custody and then he was let go because some liberal DA let him go and he was, and he shot someone later that day.

Speaker 8 He had pointed the gun at someone and he had done all this stuff. And it's, and, and that's not true.

Speaker 8 He did something in the morning, fled the scene, wasn't apprehended, and then did something later that day in a library, right?

Speaker 8 So this isn't, this has nothing to do with whether or not a DA prosecuted him. And that's how he started the story.
That's literally how he starts the story.

Speaker 8 He says, you know, they have a problem with these DAs down here.

Speaker 8 Here's a completely unrelated story that I will twist to make it sound like it was the problem with the DA, but the DA had nothing to do with it.

Speaker 7 Yeah, that's such a great point because as you say, this came in from talking about the DAs in San Francisco allowing drug dealers to continue giving drugs to homeless people.

Speaker 7 And he tags onto that something in Austin that's got nothing to do with any of that. That is his proof point.

Speaker 8 Yeah, exactly. And just, and they say like, oh, they just let these people off.
That's what that's the problem with these liberal DAs.

Speaker 8 I just want to read a tiny piece here from an article that says that this person was booked into Travis County Jail Saturday evening.

Speaker 8 Jail records show he was facing a total of 10 charges, including first and he felony for drug manufacturing and delivery, tampering with evidence, and two applications to revoke probation.

Speaker 8 His total bond was set at $315,000.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I mean, like the way they make it sound is that he was let off scot-free by these liberal DAs. He's facing 10 charges.
These are all very serious charges.

Speaker 8 He will almost certainly be incarcerated for this. Yeah.
All right. So now we're continuing on talking about this sort of thing.

Speaker 8 None of these tape, by the way, any of the tape that we've played so far, this is all one section. So I haven't skipped anything at all.
It's not like we're cutting pieces out.

Speaker 8 This is the next section. They're going to talk about repeat violent offenders.

Speaker 4 I mean, like, we do have a serious issue

Speaker 4 in America where repeat violent offenders need to be incarcerated. Right.

Speaker 4 And, you know, you got cases where somebody's been arrested like 47 times. Right.
Like literally, okay, that's just the number of times they were arrested, not the number of times they did things.

Speaker 4 Like most of the times they do things, they're not arrested.

Speaker 4 So lay this out for people so they understand how this happens. Yeah, and the key is like this, it preys on people's empathy.

Speaker 4 So like if you're a good person, you want good things to happen in the world, you're like, well, we should take care of people

Speaker 4 who are down in their luck or having a hard time in life. And we should, I agree.
But what we shouldn't do is put people who are violent drug zombies in public places where they can hurt other people.

Speaker 4 And that is what we're doing that we just saw, where a guy

Speaker 4 got

Speaker 4 shot in the library.

Speaker 4 But even before that, he shot another guy and pointed his gun at a kid.

Speaker 4 That guy probably has many prior arrests.

Speaker 4 There was that guy that knifed the Ukrainian woman, Irina. Yes.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And she was just quietly on her phone, and he just came up and

Speaker 4 gutted her, basically.

Speaker 8 There's a part of this where Joe says, right. And can you just tell people, can you sort of explain to people what's happening here? Can you explain sort of the situation?

Speaker 8 How can Elon explain any of this? It's literally just him recounting a conspiracy theory he either made up or saw on Twitter.

Speaker 8 What makes him some kind of expert to have on your show to explain any of this to anyone?

Speaker 7 Yeah, completely. Elon should not be the one laying the prison system out or the homelessness crisis out for anyone so they can understand.
He's not someone who's got any information about this.

Speaker 7 He's somebody who, as you say, he's just seen this stuff on Twitter. That's why he comes back to the stabbing of the Ukrainian refugee arena, because that was a big story on Twitter.

Speaker 7 And that's why he's recounting, just the narrow sliver of the world that he serves himself. He delivers himself through the engine that he's built to give him the most outrageous stuff possible.

Speaker 7 This is the problem with Joe Rogan's style of having freewheeling conversations with people who are completely unaware of their own limitations.

Speaker 7 If this was in a pub, if this is just two guys chatting in a pub and neither of them are particularly informed about an issue, it's so much less harmful.

Speaker 7 They're not doing themselves or anyone else any good, but they're less likely to do any harm because there aren't millions of people watching it and thinking that they know what they're talking about.

Speaker 7 They assume that because someone is on the biggest podcast in the world being watched by millions of people, he wouldn't be saying stuff he's completely uninformed about.

Speaker 7 Nobody, for example, nobody disagrees that repeat violent offenders should be arrested. Yeah.
I have friends who are prison abolitionists.

Speaker 7 They don't believe that prison should be a thing, that the entire system of prison is completely fundamentally broken and fundamentally flawed.

Speaker 7 And they would acknowledge you have to have something in place for people who are repeatedly causing violence to themselves or to others in order to protect the public from harm and protect them from harming the public.

Speaker 7 That system may not be prison, but something has to keep keep them from doing that. And it's a way of sort of keeping them from doing further harm.

Speaker 7 So there is nobody who is saying, oh, it's not like there is some walk,

Speaker 7 walk conspiracy to put violent defenders back on the streets so we don't hurt their feelings. That's a complete straw, man.
It's just not a thing that anybody thinks.

Speaker 8 Right. There's also a part too where he talks about, you know, how, you know, we have these violent drugs, zombies in public places that can hurt other people.

Speaker 8 We essentially need to put those people in a different place. And that to me sounds like a social safety net problem more than it sounds sounds like a tough on crime problem.

Speaker 8 Cause it definitely doesn't sound like someone because the way he's explaining it is as if these people are just fundamentally broken.

Speaker 8 So instead of trying to fix the people, you're just trying to get them out of your sight.

Speaker 8 And to me, it feels like there's a much better opportunity to fix the people than it does to try to like remove them from your site.

Speaker 8 And then when they eventually get released, they're going to do the exact same thing they were doing already. You're just continually perpetuating the problem.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I think so. And one thing that is worth bearing in mind, the more that we hear Elon talking about drug zombies and drug dealers and people who are addicted and all that kind of stuff,

Speaker 7 we should be keeping in mind Elon Musk's very well-documented ketamine use.

Speaker 7 But I guess he has enough wealth that he doesn't count as a drug zombie. Yeah, you're right.

Speaker 7 Because he isn't in a place where he might actually, where he might miss a mortgage payment and be out on the street because he has enough wealth that if he does fuck up, it's absolutely fine.

Speaker 7 But we've seen him doing things on drugs very clearly that are the kinds of actions that would be a concern for someone and if he happened to be living paycheck to paycheck he'd be an issue it'd be in a problem by then so his privilege has protected him from becoming one of the drug zombies he's talking about arguably He brings up at the end, he talks about the Ukrainian woman who was stabbed on a train.

Speaker 8 And I found a New York Times article about it. I want to read a piece of that because I think it's really important.
Quote, more consequentially, Mr.

Speaker 8 Brown, the person who had done the stabbing, had been diagnosed with severe mental illness schizophrenia that police departments, jails, and even mental health systems across the country are ill-equipped to handle.

Speaker 8 His family believed he was too dangerous to live at home, but under state law, he was not considered dangerous enough to be treated against his will. End quote.
And I think this is the real problem.

Speaker 8 We've eliminated social safety nets in our country. We're sending police to do mental health care work.

Speaker 8 They might be able to get somebody to calm down or stop a situation, but they have no real way to care for that person long term without actually putting them in jail, which is a bad situation for them.

Speaker 8 So instead, we let that person who we thought needed help and stability back out unsupervised so they can hurt somebody.

Speaker 8 You know, what we need to do is we need to have places where we rehabilitate people that isn't jail. where it isn't because we've removed all those things.

Speaker 7 We used to have places like that and then we cut all the funding for those places and they don't exist and then we wonder why people who genuinely need help hurt other people outside when we have no way to actually help those people yeah it's like uh you had you the the way that things are structured now you've eliminated so many options that the only option you have is set somebody free to to go off and do something or arrest them and put them in prison before they've done something you don't have the option of this person is potentially a risk but hasn't done anything yet we need to get them help so they don't do something and then you have people like elon Musk, like Joe Rorgan, decrying, why wasn't something done?

Speaker 7 Why are we just allowing this to happen? Well, the reason you're allowing it to happen is because you haven't put any interventions in the middle, those safety nets that would stop this happening.

Speaker 8 And I would say that they've actually actively dismantled those safety nets where they existed because they wanted to pay less taxes, as we heard in the beginning of this clip, right?

Speaker 8 I don't want to have to pay taxes for this sort of thing. I don't want my tax dollars to go for that sort of thing.

Speaker 8 Well, now you're complaining about the things that your tax dollars could feasibly fix. And you're saying that you're basically tearing down the system and complaining when it's gone.
Yeah. All right.

Speaker 8 So there's a piece here where they, of course, have to steer over and talk about a black judge who let somebody out. And so it's a liberal judge and it's DEI and all that.

Speaker 8 And there's a couple clips on that.

Speaker 7 Let out the guy who stopped Irina, the Ukrainian refugees. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 8 This is, this is very, again, this is, we haven't skipped any tape. This is the next bit.
They're talking about the judge that let that person out.

Speaker 4 Wasn't there a crazy story about the judge who was involved, who had previously dealt with this person, was also invested in a rehabilitation center and was sending these conflict of interest. Yes.

Speaker 4 So sending people that they were charging to a rehabilitation center instead of putting them in jail, profiting from this rehabilitation center, letting them back out on the street

Speaker 4 with violent insane people.

Speaker 4 And in that case, I believe that judge has no law degree or a significant legal experience that would allow them to be a judge. They were just made a judge.

Speaker 4 You could be a judge without a law degree? Yeah. Wow.
Yeah. You could just be so I could be a judge? Yeah.

Speaker 4 Anyone.

Speaker 4 That's crazy. I thought you'd have to, it's like if you want to be a doctor, you have to go to medical school.
I thought if you're going to be a judge.

Speaker 4 If you're going to be appointed to a judge, you have to have proven that you have an excellent knowledge of the law and that you will make your decisions according to the law.

Speaker 4 That's what we assume should be a role. Until you get the robe.
Right. You don't get the robe unless you do

Speaker 4 got to go to school to get the robe. You got to know what the law is.
Right. And then you've got to need to make decisions in accordance with the law.

Speaker 4 Based on the stuff that you already know because you've read it because you went to school for it. Yes.
Not you just got to point out.

Speaker 4 It can't be just vibing as a judge. Vibing as a left-wing drudge.

Speaker 7 So, first of all, it's not a conflict of interest that the judge was investing or involved in any way with a rehabilitation center, because that rehab center is the middle ground thing that we were just talking about at the end of the previous clip.

Speaker 7 Either you have to let them out or you send them to prison because even though they haven't done anything that warrants prison just yet, because that's the only place they get help, the rehab center is the middle ground where you can send them for help before they do something that warrants them getting into prison.

Speaker 7 So, it's not a conflict of interest for a judge to try to stop people being in a position where they might be in court up in front of the judge to be sent to prison.

Speaker 7 That's not a conflict of interest at all.

Speaker 8 Yeah. And they say that she doesn't have a law degree.
She does have a law degree, right? So she absolutely has a law degree. She graduated law school.

Speaker 8 Now, there are posts online suggesting that she didn't pass the bar. And all I could find was far right-wing sources or

Speaker 8 sources that

Speaker 8 you wouldn't believe if you were to see that newspaper. You'd be like, I don't know that I believe that one.

Speaker 8 That's what was saying that she didn't pass the bar is what they were saying.

Speaker 7 Yeah, and so the question is: given that, why is Elon in a position where he's on Joe Rogan saying, I believe she didn't have a law degree, and then they have an extended conversation about how you shouldn't be able to become a judge if you don't have a law degree, even though he doesn't have evidence.

Speaker 7 And it turns out that wasn't the case, where to get that from? Well, the answer is Twitter.

Speaker 7 And as we'll see in the toolbox section, he actually describes Twitter as the place that he goes to get a good vibe of what's going on.

Speaker 7 He says that's his place where he gets a good idea of what's happening. You can get a great vibe of the world just by going on Twitter.

Speaker 7 Well, no, you can't. One of those accounts that were sharing the false idea that this judge didn't have a law degree was Charlie Kirk, incidentally.

Speaker 7 Charlie Kirk, who only ever wants to have conversations, isn't trying to do any kind of propaganda or anything. He was sharing this canard that she didn't have a law degree.

Speaker 7 But the bigger question here is, why was this person let out? Was this

Speaker 7 an overly sympathetic liberal judge who was just desperately trying to either push things towards a rehab route because she profited from it or just didn't want to upset people, upset the offenders or put them back on the street.

Speaker 7 Well, actually, no, not really. When it comes to a judge making a ruling about whether someone can be held or not, they have to kind of look at,

Speaker 7 was a violent act foreseeable in the future? That's kind of the reasonable standard. Was her ruling to let him out unreasonable at the time?

Speaker 7 I.e., would a different judge have been expected to make a different ruling? Well, I found an article in Newsweek talking about it. I'm going to quote from this here.
Attorney Bradley P.

Speaker 7 Moss told Newsweek, living in a free society where innocence is presumed until guilt is proven and courts assess the criminal allegations in front of them, there are unfortunate and sometimes tragic situations that can result.

Speaker 7 Even assuming the career criminal description of De Carlos Brown is accurate, the magistrate cannot simply hold someone in pre-trial detention for the fun of it.

Speaker 7 The magistrate had to consider the specific crime at issue, which is misuse of the 911 system. That's what he was actually in front of the judge for, misuse of the 911 system.

Speaker 7 Past convictions, which were 10 years previously. So, okay, he had some past convictions, but it was 10 years previously.

Speaker 7 Feasibility of a cash bond and other related factors. Hindsight's 2020 and maybe requiring completion of the competency evaluation prior to release would have been the better course of action.

Speaker 7 But it's not wildly outside the realm of legal procedures for this mistake to have occurred. Fearmongering and politicization will not solve this, nor bring back Irina Zaruska.

Speaker 8 Yeah, and of course,

Speaker 8 a lot of these posts, a lot of the things that I saw, a lot of the conversation I saw on Twitter was because this person was black.

Speaker 8 This judge was black and they were calling her a DEI hire, a far left-wing radical. Of course they're doing that.

Speaker 7 Yeah, and that's why this stuff bubbles to the surface of Elon Musk's Twitter, because these accounts want to sort of pick at this for that particular reason.

Speaker 7 It's the perfect storm for a controversy for those accounts in that the judge was black, the perpetrator was black, and the victim was a young white blonde lady.

Speaker 7 So of course it becomes the scandal of the week.

Speaker 7 Obviously, it's a horrible tragedy, but it's being politicized and used by accounts like Libs of TikTok or Charlie Kirk or Ian Miles Chong, which feed directly into Elon because he's built this system that just delivers those kinds of stories and those kinds of takes on those stories directly into his veins via his Twitter feed.

Speaker 8 Yeah, he's literally engineered the algorithm to give that to everyone else too.

Speaker 7 Yeah, he has, yeah.

Speaker 8 The last bit here, they're talking about left-wing DAs. This is, again, the final bit of this conversation.
And again, we haven't caught anything.

Speaker 4 So you got crazy left-wing DAs Yeah, like I was going to say left-wing because the left-wing used to be normal Yeah, left-wing just meant like like yeah, you're like

Speaker 4 the left used to be like pro-free speech. Yeah.
And now they're against it. It used to be like pro-gay rights, pro-women's right to choose, pro-minorities, pro-you know.
Like, yeah, like.

Speaker 4 20 years ago, I don't know, it used to be like the left would be like the party of empathy or like, you know, caring and being nice and and that kind of thing.

Speaker 4 Not the party of like crushing dissent and crushing free speech

Speaker 4 and, you know, crazy regulation

Speaker 4 and just and being super judgy and calling everyone a Nazi.

Speaker 4 You know,

Speaker 4 like I think they've called you and me Nazis. Oh, yeah, I'm a Nazis.

Speaker 7 So the left still is those things. Joe is saying the left used to be pro-gay rights, pro-women's white, women's right to choose, pro-minorities.

Speaker 7 The left is still those things. The left absolutely is still those things.
The right certainly isn't.

Speaker 7 As America in the right rolls back the women's right to choose, as we see even questions now being asked about a Bergefell and whether

Speaker 7 gay marriage will be the next thing to go, the attitude towards minorities in America, pretty clearly there is a left position on those, which are very pro those rights, and the right is very much against them.

Speaker 7 So for them to say, well, the left used to be all those things, and now they're just really judgy. And now they're just kind of,

Speaker 7 you know, crazy revelation, crazy regulation and crushing free speech and crushing dissent. Maybe it's that these guys are out of touch now.

Speaker 7 You know, maybe Elon always was. Maybe Joe has become out of touch.
Maybe they have no left-wing friends and they've built these golden palaces to protect them from the horrible leftists.

Speaker 7 So the only things that they see now is what their fear engines feeds them. What Elon Musk's fear engine feeds him.

Speaker 7 Think of the opposite of what he's setting up here. He's saying, well, the left used to be the party of empathy.
So are you saying they're not now?

Speaker 7 So who is the party of empathy if it's not the left here? You know, the left used to care about free speech, but now they don't. So who does in this worldview that you're putting forward here?

Speaker 7 They're trying to put forward a right-wing view, essentially. It's that the left aren't free speech.
So maybe the right wing is right. But yeah, the right wing is not the pro-empathy party.

Speaker 7 The right wing is not the pro-women party. It's not the pro-minorities party, that side of the aisle at all.

Speaker 8 Well, I mean, just listen to the clips that we listen to and even the first few where he's trying to very specifically control who you have empathy for, right?

Speaker 8 I mean, like that, that should tell you who a party of empathy is if you have to, if you have to feed your empathy through a filter that Elon Musk gives you.

Speaker 8 We're going to take a quick break and then move on to our toolbox section.

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Speaker 4 Wow. So that's the toolbox, and something just fell out of the toolbox.

Speaker 8 So for the toolbox this time, we're doing confident assertion, which is a little different than we've done done in Kruger before. And that's very similar, but this is a little different spin on it.

Speaker 7 Yeah, so this is a specific rhetorical technique that Elon will rely on quite often, the confident assertion. So Elon, he likes to look very smart.
He likes to look very informed.

Speaker 7 So he will just assert something and then try to use his conviction and his certainty in that assertion to carry it so nobody questions him.

Speaker 7 He might even believe some of it because he is so infrequently in a room where anybody is going to question him in any kind of way.

Speaker 7 Or he might have like warped his access to reality via the media diet he consumes, and that's why he believes it.

Speaker 7 But essentially, what we'll see throughout this interview, and we've got a lot of clips, we could have had twice as many clips. Yeah, easily.

Speaker 7 When in doubt, he'll say something with enough confidence and hope that Joe will believe him. And Joe pretty much unanimously always does.

Speaker 8 All right. So, this first clip, Joe is talking about Cash Patel, a recent guest on his show.

Speaker 4 You should have asked if Epsom killed himself. Did

Speaker 4 that

Speaker 4 tell you?

Speaker 4 Damn Bungino trying to convince everybody of that.

Speaker 4 The guards weren't there and the camera stopped working. And,

Speaker 4 you know, the guards were asleep. The cameras weren't working.
He had a giant steroided-up bodybuilder guy that he was sharing a cell with that was a murderer, who was a bad cop.

Speaker 4 Like, all of it's kind of nuts. All of it's kind of nuts.
Like, that he would just kill himself rather than reveal all of his billionaire friends. Yeah.
And then Chris Cuomo about this.

Speaker 4 I did. He liked the anger.
Chris Cuomo just looked so stupid.

Speaker 4 Tim just listed off all the time. Tim just, and he's like, I agree.
It is strange.

Speaker 8 Like, of course it's strange, Chris.

Speaker 4 Jesus Christ. You can't just go with the tide.
You got to think things through. And if you think that one through, you're like, I don't think he killed himself.
Nobody does.

Speaker 4 You'd have to work for an intelligence agency to think he killed himself.

Speaker 4 It does seem unlikely. It seems highly unlikely.

Speaker 4 Highly, highly unlikely. All roads point to murder.
Yes. Point to they had to get rid of him because he knew too much.

Speaker 4 Whatever the fuck he was doing, whatever kind of an asset he was, whatever thing he was up to,

Speaker 4 you know, it was apparently very effective. Yes.
And a lot of people were compromised.

Speaker 8 Interesting thing to throw in there at the end. They talk about the murder throughout, but then he, of course, throws in the motive as if a lot of people were compromised.

Speaker 4 How the fuck do you know, Joe?

Speaker 7 Yeah, yeah, completely. Elon here, he's asserting this conspiracy angle.
He's kind of doing it like, oh, it's highly unlikely. It's highly unlikely.

Speaker 7 He's doing it in a tone of voice that he uses to make it sound like he knows something.

Speaker 7 And when you listen to him react to things in this conversation, it should make everybody, the more that we'll hear his kind of confident assertions throughout this

Speaker 7 conversation here. I think it should make everyone go back and assess the times they thought he sounded knowledgeable about things in the past.

Speaker 7 Because he's using this tone of voice, as we'll see throughout these clips, that is the same way for things he clearly has no idea about.

Speaker 7 And this is even, you know, it seems highly unlikely, like you don't know anything, but you're trying to make out that you have some sort of insight here to offer. Yeah.

Speaker 8 This next clip is about

Speaker 8 a meteor strike.

Speaker 4 Yeah, there was one that

Speaker 4 hits, there was a one that that hit Siberia and destroyed, I think,

Speaker 4 a few hundred square miles. Oh, that's the Tunguska.
Yeah, that's the one from the 1920s, right? Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's the one that coincides with that meteor, that comet storm that we go through every June and every November that they think is responsible for that younger dryers impact. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 All that shit's crazy.

Speaker 7 So this is a really small one here, but Joe is talking about the Younger Dryers impact, and Elon just signs on to that. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 7 That is Graham Hancock's idea that there was this meteor impact that wiped out an ancient civilization. And Elon is just yesing this.

Speaker 7 Now, I don't think this is proof that Elon Musk believes in the Younger Dreyer's impact theory.

Speaker 7 I think it's proof he'll just say yes to things in a fairly authoritarian, like fairly authoritative voice in order to maintain sounding smart and likable.

Speaker 7 And you'll see these build as we go, but that's what I think he's doing here. Like, I don't think he's a Graham Hancock believer, but you couldn't tell that from listening to this interview.

Speaker 8 All right. So now Joe, Joe is asking him about some of the things that they're working on at Tesla, and they asked him about the Roadster.

Speaker 4 Are you still doing the Roadster? Yes. Eventually? We're getting close to demonstrating the prototype.
Okay. And I think this will be

Speaker 4 one thing I can guarantee is that this product demo will be unforgettable. Unforgettable.
How so?

Speaker 4 Whether it's good or bad.

Speaker 4 It will be unforgettable.

Speaker 4 Can you say more? What What do you mean? Well, you know, my friend Peter Thiel,

Speaker 4 you know,

Speaker 4 once reflected that

Speaker 4 the future was supposed to have flying cars, but we don't have flying cars. So you're going to be able to fly? Well, I mean,

Speaker 4 I think if Peter wants a flying car, we should be able to buy one. So

Speaker 4 are you actively considering making an electric flying car? Is this like a real thing? Well, you have to see in the

Speaker 4 demo. So when you do this, like,

Speaker 4 are you going to have a retractable wing? Like, what is the idea behind this? Don't be sly. Come on.

Speaker 4 I can't do the unveil before the unveil.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 4 tell me off air then.

Speaker 4 Look, I think it has a shot at being the most memorable

Speaker 4 product unveil ever. It has a shot.

Speaker 4 And when do you plan on doing this? What's the goal?

Speaker 4 Hopefully before the end of the year. Really? Before the end of this year? This is, I mean, we're

Speaker 4 going to first. Hopefully in a couple months.

Speaker 4 You know, we need to make sure that it works.

Speaker 4 Like, this is some crazy, crazy technology we've got in this car. Crazy technology.
Crazy, crazy.

Speaker 4 So different than what was previously announced.

Speaker 4 Yes. And is that why you haven't released it yet? Because you keep fucking with it? It has crazy technology.
Okay.

Speaker 7 So, okay, yeah. If Peter Thiel wants a flying car, Elon thinks they should exist.

Speaker 7 I mean, Peter Thial is so-so on whether humanity should continue existing right now, but apparently he needs a flying car. So that's kind of really important to him.

Speaker 7 Very important. Also, it's worth pointing out throughout this interview, he will continually reference his billionaire friends.
He'll do that multiple times.

Speaker 7 This is actually the second time he influenced, he mentioned one. He did one a bit earlier that I don't think we covered.

Speaker 7 This is a billionaire talking about his billionaire friend to this everyman millionaire of Joe Rogan. We hear this a lot.

Speaker 8 I do not want to see flying cars. Chicago drivers are the worst drivers already.
I do not want Chicago flyers. We would have a 9-11-like crash every third day.
Are you kidding me?

Speaker 7 Yeah, exactly. But ultimately, look, Joe is letting him hype the idea that he might actually be about to announce a flying car.

Speaker 7 Now, I can't tell if Joe is just saying that and doesn't believe it or whether he actually believes it. But Elon is very clearly doing the

Speaker 7 what's coming is amazing. The thing is crazy.
We're going to do that. And because he's talking confidently, Joe appears to be believing that something amazing is about to happen.

Speaker 8 Yeah. And here's more about that car.

Speaker 4 Like, is it even a car? I'm not sure.

Speaker 4 It looks like a car.

Speaker 4 Let's just put it this way.

Speaker 4 It's crazier than anything James Bond. If you took all the James Bond cars and combined them, it's crazier than that.

Speaker 4 Very exciting. I don't know what to think of that.
Is it even a car? I don't know. It's the limited amount of information I'm drawing from from here, Jamie's very suspicious over there.
Look at him.

Speaker 7 Excited. I'm interested.

Speaker 4 It's still going to be the same. Well, you know what? I mean,

Speaker 4 if you want to come a little before the

Speaker 4 unveil, I can show it to you. 100%.
Yeah. Let's go.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 8 Oh, man. I hope it has an ejector seat and an oil slick.
That would be amazing because that's what James Bond cars have in them.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I mean, this is such ridiculous over-the-top hype. It's just pure confidence, and Joe's totally on board with it.
I don't believe it. I could be proven wrong.
I'd love to be proven wrong.

Speaker 7 And maybe an American vehicle will emerge in the next five to six weeks before the end of the year. But I can't help remembering the Hyperloop and how that was going to change everything.

Speaker 7 Don't build high-speed rail between two cities because Elon will just dig a massive tunnel underneath and put a super fast vehicle that goes through it.

Speaker 7 And that never happened, but the high-speed rail also never happened. And the investment in automobiles continues in America.

Speaker 7 So I'm pretty skeptical until I see some actual evidence of a miracle product, regardless of how confident Elon comes across here.

Speaker 8 Great point. Okay, so now he's going to switch back to talking about this is something that Joe can't ever not let go.
And he has to talk about it all the time.

Speaker 8 It's about how great Elon was because he bought Twitter and how that affected everything in the world.

Speaker 4 A lot of people didn't course correct, but

Speaker 4 it's gone directionally.

Speaker 4 It's directionally correct. Like you mentioned

Speaker 4 like the massive spike in kids identifying as trans, and then

Speaker 4 that spike dropping after the Twitter acquisition, I think that

Speaker 4 simply allowing the truth to be told

Speaker 4 was just shedding sunlight is the best disinfectant, as they say. And just allowing sunlight kills the virus.
And it also changed the benchmark for all the other platforms.

Speaker 4 You can't just openly censor people on all the other platforms, and Next is available. So everybody else had a Facebook announced they were changing.

Speaker 4 YouTube announced they were changing their policies.

Speaker 4 And they're kind of forced to. And the then Blue Sky doubled down.

Speaker 4 Well, like the problem is, like, if

Speaker 4 essentially the woke mind virus retreated to work to Blue Sky. Yeah.
But it's where they're just a self-reinforcing lunatic asylum. They're all just triple masked.

Speaker 4 I was totally.

Speaker 7 So, first of all, we are going to come back to this thing about the massive spike in kids identifying trans and how that changed. We're going to cover that on the next episode.

Speaker 7 We've got a whole kind of segment on that. But the irony here is that these men have both got themselves to a place where what they consume online almost in no way resembles truth, almost at all.

Speaker 7 Very little of it resembles truth. And so they'll believe absurdities like Elon buying Twitter had this massive influential effect on the world in really serious ways.

Speaker 7 That's because neither of these men are actually around anybody who are willing to expose their ideas to sunlight. Yeah.

Speaker 7 And they've long since built themselves a UV filter around their hyperbaric oxygen chambers to keep the sunlight out.

Speaker 8 Yeah, you know, this is so easy to point out, but I feel like I have to.

Speaker 8 The profit system follows the path of least resistance. So these companies didn't change because they suddenly care about free speech.

Speaker 8 It's cheaper than having people do moderation work to people to not have people do moderation work.

Speaker 8 And so when they saw that Twitter could get away with it and no one was going to change how Twitter was reacting and how Twitter Twitter was interacting with all of its people, they immediately said, well, shit, we don't need any of these people that are doing any of the moderation or checking up on any of the stuff that we have in our, we can fire an entire division of people.

Speaker 8 We don't need to pay those people. And that's what they did.
They know these people don't care about free speech or, or they don't care about censorship. What they care about is making money.

Speaker 8 And they're going to make as much money as possible.

Speaker 8 And if they can cut out entire pieces of their business that they had previously, they would do it in a second if they could make the same amount of money.

Speaker 7 Yeah, like a complete removal of regulation is much cheaper for companies. It's just much more expensive for society when those companies aren't regulated.
That's kind of the true.

Speaker 7 But what's happening is here is these, these men are both committed to this hero story about Elon Musk and history will be rewritten to serve that hero story.

Speaker 7 You know, Facebook were forced into protecting free speech by the moves that Musk made. And we know that because he's saying it with such confidence.

Speaker 7 And honestly, I think the scariest possibility here is that he actually believes that. Yeah.
And I think that's the one that's true. I don't think he's just saying this in order to puff himself up.

Speaker 7 I think he genuinely believes it. And that's the scariest possibility that he genuinely thinks the world changed because he bought Twitter, that he's protected the entire world.

Speaker 8 Okay, so they're still talking about Twitter here. They're saying it's the town square.

Speaker 4 I mean, I can generally get the vibe of like what's taking off by seeing what's showing up on X, because that's the public town square still. Right.

Speaker 4 And or,

Speaker 4 what links show up in group text? You know, if I'm in group chats with friends, like where what links are showing up?

Speaker 4 That's what I try to do now, only get stuff that shows up in my group text because that keeps me productive. So I only check if someone's like, dude, what the fuck? I'm like, all right, what the fuck?

Speaker 4 Let me check it out.

Speaker 4 If it's something that's crazy enough,

Speaker 4 it'll enter the group chat. But there's always something.
That's what's nuts. There's always some new law that's passed, some new insane thing that California is doing.
And it's like

Speaker 4 a giant chunk of it's happening in California. The most preposterous things that I get.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 So, yeah, here we go. Musk gets a vibe of what's going on in the world by seeing what's on his Twitter feed.

Speaker 7 And that's why he keeps resharing the content of overt propagandists like Tommy Robinson or Andy No or Ian Miles Chong or something like that.

Speaker 7 This is why Musk's grip on reality is so slight that he can actually believe that his buying Twitter caused these massive positive effects on the world.

Speaker 7 And it's why he's on Twitter believing Tommy Robinson and saying that the British public should unite behind Tommy Robinson in the oncoming civil war in Britain.

Speaker 7 That's the vibe that he's getting from his Twitter. But he's, because he's so confident in what he's saying, he doesn't think maybe I'm wrong here.
Maybe I should check.

Speaker 7 That instinct is completely gone for him.

Speaker 8 Yeah. I mean, what is so scary when I heard this, Marsh, is Joe talking about how he doesn't really look at Twitter so much.
He just pays attention to his group chat.

Speaker 8 And then, if somebody says there's a crazy story, then he goes to check it out. It's like, holy cow, you're getting the internet curated by either right-wing comedians or people with CTE.

Speaker 4 Holy Christ.

Speaker 7 And Musk has the same thing. He says, like, it's either Twitter or his group chats.
So he's getting it curated by, he's not in a group chat with you and me.

Speaker 7 He's in a group chat with Peter Thiel and Mark Andreessen and people like that. That's who he is getting his internet curated by.

Speaker 7 And that is massively, massively prone to manipulation by somebody who wants to put something in front of those people so that the most powerful people in the world suddenly start believing it.

Speaker 8 So to preface this next clip, there is a portion of the conversation. They shift back and forth to talking about AI multiple times.
This is the first time they sort of touch on it in the episode.

Speaker 8 And this is where Musk is explaining how AI will interact with everyday technology in the future.

Speaker 4 So if there's no apps, what will people use? Like, will X still exist?

Speaker 4 Will they be email platforms or will you get everything through AI? You'll get everything through AI. Everything through AI.
What will be the benefit of that? As opposed to having individual apps?

Speaker 4 Whatever you can think of, or really whatever the AI can anticipate you might want, it'll show you.

Speaker 4 That's my prediction for where things end up. What kind of timeframe are we talking about here? I don't know.

Speaker 4 Well, it's probably five or six years, something like that. So, five or six years, apps are like blockbuster video.
Pretty much. And everything's run through AI.
Yeah. And they'll be

Speaker 4 like

Speaker 4 most of what people consume in five or six years, maybe sooner than that,

Speaker 4 will be just AI-generated content. So,

Speaker 4 you know, music, videos,

Speaker 4 look,

Speaker 4 there's already,

Speaker 4 you know,

Speaker 4 people have made AI videos using Rock Imagine and using, you know, other apps as well

Speaker 4 that are several minutes long or like 10, 15 minutes, and it's pretty coherent. Yeah.
It looks good. No, it looks amazing.

Speaker 7 So, yeah, if pretty coherent is what we're aspiring to in our arts, then

Speaker 7 fantastic.

Speaker 7 His argument here is that you're going to get everything through AI. Everything, including your email, is coming in through EI.
There'll be no more email clients. There'll be no more sending email.

Speaker 7 You'll get your email through AI. I mean, call me a Luddite.
This sounds incoherent to me because where is your AI getting that email from?

Speaker 7 There is still going to be, yeah, there's still going to be email. You just talk about filtering it through a model that's like regurgitating it to you.

Speaker 7 That's still, there's still going to be email kind of going on. But when is this happening? Oh, five to six years.

Speaker 7 Just in the same way that that new car is going to be out by the, you know, launch by the end of the year. Five to six years, it sounds specific.
It sounds like a real number.

Speaker 7 So that must be informed. Elon must know what he's talking about here because he said five to six years.
He didn't say, oh, I don't know at some point in the future. He put a number on it.

Speaker 7 And that's confident. Therefore, this must be true.
You know, he's saying it so confidently. He must be onto something.
We should believe him.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 8 Well, and he's sort of famous for saying like these stupid predictions and never ever getting called on it, even when the things he predicts, even about his own company's product timeline, don't come true.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 8 look, here's the thing. He's saying AI is is the way of the future.
We can pretty much argue with bots right now on Twitter. What's the big difference between AI,

Speaker 8 if we integrate AI into Twitter? So they're talking very specifically in this next clip about budgets, about Dealon's time at Doge, but they shift here and they start talking about the shutdown.

Speaker 8 So most of what they're the conversation they're having here is talking about why the shutdown is happening in the United States government.

Speaker 4 And so their ability to balance budget is dependent upon illegals getting funding? Aaron Powell, the the scam level here is

Speaker 4 so staggering.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 there are hundreds of billions of dollars of transfer payments from the federal government to the states.

Speaker 4 Those transfer payments,

Speaker 4 the states self-report what those transfer payment numbers should be. So California and New York and Illinois lie like crazy

Speaker 4 and say that these are all legitimate payments. Well, these days, I think they're even admitting that they literally want hundreds of billions of dollars for illegals.

Speaker 4 But for a while, they're trying to deny it.

Speaker 4 So you get these transfer payments for every government program you can possibly think of.

Speaker 4 And these are self-reported by the state.

Speaker 4 And at least historically, there was no enforcement of

Speaker 4 California,

Speaker 4 New York, Illinois, and other states. When they would lie, there was no actual enforcement to say, like, hey, you're lying.

Speaker 4 These payments are fraudulent. Now, under the Trump administration,

Speaker 4 the Trump administration does not want to send hundreds of billions of dollars of fraudulent payments to the states.

Speaker 4 And the reason you have the standoff is because if the

Speaker 4 hundreds of billions of dollars

Speaker 4 to create a financial incentive to have this giant magnet to attract illegals from every part of Earth to

Speaker 4 these states, if that is turned off,

Speaker 4 the illegals will leave because they're no longer being paid to come to the United States and stay here. Wow.

Speaker 4 And then they will lose a lot of voters.

Speaker 4 The Democratic Party will lose a lot of voters. And they would have a very difficult job if this is kicked out of reintroducing it into a new bill.
Yes. Especially once things start normalizing.
Yes.

Speaker 8 Look,

Speaker 8 this is so funny because he talks about it as if there's a standoff between the Trump administration and the states, states, and the states are the ones that are lying.

Speaker 8 Somehow we're supposed to believe that

Speaker 8 between the two, the Trump administration, which is notorious for lying, has 30,000 plus lies that he's said throughout the entire time while he's been in office. They're not lying.

Speaker 8 It's the states that are lying.

Speaker 7 Yeah. And the reason we should believe that is because he's saying it incredibly confidently.
Yes. All of this, so confident.
It's based on literally nothing.

Speaker 7 Saying states are all lying about these payments. Where's the evidence for that? It's not here.
He's not presenting anything. The payments are fraudulent.
How do we know that? We take his word for it.

Speaker 7 That fraud was previously unenforced by the previous administration. Where's the evidence for that? No idea.
It's now not being, it's not actually being enforced. Where's the evidence? No idea.

Speaker 7 He's saying about the illegals won't come if they're no longer being paid to come to the U.S.

Speaker 7 So the idea that illegal people, illegal immigrants, as he would put him, are being paid to come to the US already, that was the thing that was happening. Where's the evidence for that?

Speaker 7 We don't have any evidence for that. He's not presenting anything.
He's just saying it confidently.

Speaker 7 And I love that, given that he's saying there was this fraudulent system by which illegal immigrants were being directly paid in order to come from any part of the world to move into a state in the US in order to swing the election there.

Speaker 7 And that system has been gotten away with, Jor said. And that'd be a difficult thing in reintroducing.

Speaker 7 Yeah, it'd be pretty difficult to reintroduce, Jaw, given that that would be a wildly illegal thing, like this wildly illegal corruption.

Speaker 7 It'd be difficult to bring in a bill that would just do that again.

Speaker 8 Yeah. It's real tough.

Speaker 8 You got to slip that one past the goalie for sure.

Speaker 8 All right. So

Speaker 8 this is another piece.

Speaker 8 There's a long piece that we're going to do in the next episode about immigration, very specifically about immigration, but there were a couple of pieces where he's so confident that we had to pull it out.

Speaker 8 This previous one talks about immigration, and this next one is going to talk about immigration too, mostly about non-citizens voting.

Speaker 4 I'm not sure if it's constitutional or

Speaker 4 it is the way the law is written. I'm not sure if it's in the constitutional or not in this way,

Speaker 4 but that is the way the law is written.

Speaker 4 So it is an incentive, but it's an incentive that would be removed with something simple that makes sense to everybody that only the people that should count are people that are official U.S.

Speaker 4 citizens. Yes,

Speaker 4 the way it should work is that only U.S. citizens should count in the census for purposes of determining voting power.

Speaker 4 Because people that aren't legal can't vote, supposedly. They're not supposed to be voting,

Speaker 4 but they do.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 4 even besides that, like I said, I just can't emphasize this enough, because this is a very important concept for people to understand, is that the law

Speaker 4 the law as it stands

Speaker 4 counts all humans with a pulse

Speaker 4 in a state for deciding how many House of Representatives votes and how many presidential electoral college votes

Speaker 4 a state gets. So the incentive, therefore, is to

Speaker 4 for California, New York, York, Illinois to maximize the number of illegals

Speaker 4 so they get so that they take House seats away from red states, assign them to California, New York, Illinois, and so forth.

Speaker 4 Then you combine that with extreme gerrymandering in California, New York, Illinois, and whatnot, so that basically you can't even elect any Republicans, and then they get control of the presidency, control of the House, then they keep doing that strategy

Speaker 4 and cement a supermajority. That is what what they're trying to do.
So that would essentially turn the entire country into California. Yes.

Speaker 4 Where you have differing opinions, but it doesn't matter because one party is always in control. Yes.

Speaker 7 So yeah, these aren't facts. There's another clip of play where he talks about this all being undisputed facts.
This is not true.

Speaker 7 These are things that Elon has read that are wrong, but they scared him.

Speaker 7 And now he's repeating them confidently on the largest podcast in the world in service to what is a racist conspiracy theory that he doesn't even realize he's been sold.

Speaker 7 This is the great replacement theory. We'll talk about it a lot in the next show.

Speaker 7 What he's talking about is that theory right here, and he is confidently explaining that to Joe Rogan.

Speaker 7 And Joe Rogan is listening to it because of his confidence and his status, even though this is based on nothing at all.

Speaker 7 It's an ephemeral conspiracy theory.

Speaker 8 And what's interesting too is he brings up the extreme

Speaker 8 gerrymandering and he says, in California, New York, and Illinois, one, I want to point out that the gerrymandering that is going to take place in California was voted on by the people.

Speaker 8 So the people actually voted on it. In the other places

Speaker 8 in the other states that are doing it, nobody voted on it. It was just the people who were in charge, the Republicans who were in charge, just decided to do it.
So that's a big difference.

Speaker 8 Also, he brings up New York

Speaker 8 and Illinois. Neither of them have actually decided to do this.
They are thinking about it in the future.

Speaker 8 But if you start looking at all the different states that are starting to gerrymander, Texas, and then there's some Carolina states and et cetera, et cetera. All these states are all red states.

Speaker 8 So most of the states that have gone to extreme gerrymandering are red states, and he doesn't even mention a single one.

Speaker 7 Yeah, exactly. And you mentioned California, the people voted.
And obviously that vote happened about four days after this interview was released, but it was all in the conversation at the time. Yeah.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 8 All right. So now they're going to talk, again, they're still talking about NGOs.
This is the time that he had at Doge and how people were getting money from the government to these NGOs.

Speaker 4 Now, when you started getting into the Doge stuff and started finding how much money is being shuffled around and moved around to NGOs and how much money is involved and just

Speaker 4 totally untraceable funds, like this is again something like two years plus ago you weren't aware of at all? No, I was aware of it. I just didn't realize

Speaker 4 how big it was.

Speaker 4 Just how much waste and forward there is in the government is truly vast.

Speaker 4 In fact, the government didn't even know,

Speaker 4 nor did they care. That's crazy.
Yeah. And I mean, just like some of the very basic stuff that Doge did will have lasting effects.

Speaker 4 And some of these things, like, they're so elementary, you can't believe it. So

Speaker 4 the Doge team got the

Speaker 4 most of the main payments computers

Speaker 4 to require

Speaker 4 the congressional appropriation code. So when a payment is made, you have to actually enter the congressional appropriation card.
That used to be optional and often would be just left blank.

Speaker 4 So the money would just go out, but it wasn't even tied to a congressional appropriation. Then

Speaker 4 the Doge team also made the comment field for the payment mandatory. So you have to say something.
We're not saying that what is said, like you can say anything.

Speaker 4 Your cat could run across the keyboard. You could go query ASDF, but you have to say something above nothing.

Speaker 4 Because what we found was that there were tens of billions, maybe hundreds of billions of dollars that were zombie payments. So they're like somebody had approved a payment,

Speaker 4 somebody in the government approved a payment, and some recurring payment, and

Speaker 4 they retired or died or changed jobs, and no one turned the money off. So the money would just keep going out.

Speaker 4 And it's a pretty rare

Speaker 4 company or an individual. And it's a pretty rare company or individual who will complain that they're getting money that they should not get.
And a bunch of the money was just going to

Speaker 4 transfer payments to the states. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: So these are automatic payments? Yeah, just automatic payments.
There's no accounting for them at all.

Speaker 4 Imagine there's an automatic debit of your credit card,

Speaker 4 and you never look at the statement. Right.

Speaker 4 So it's just money going out.

Speaker 4 That's why I call them zombie payments.

Speaker 4 They might have been legitimate at one point, but the person who approved that recurring payment changed jobs, died, retired, or whatever, and no one ever turned the money off.

Speaker 8 So, Musk, this has been Musk's message for most of the time that he was at Doge. He was saying that there was a bunch of waste, and here's the waste.
The waste was essentially just neglect.

Speaker 8 There was a ton of neglect that was happening in these departments, and people were sending out all this kind of money.

Speaker 8 First, I want to address the point where he says that, you know, if you're just getting a bunch of money, who's going to report that? Everybody reports that.

Speaker 8 If the government were to send me a giant check, I wouldn't be like, oh, I'm just going to go run and deposit this check because I know I'm on the hook for that if I spend all that money.

Speaker 8 There's a bunch. I would say more people would immediately question what is happening before actually depositing that check.

Speaker 7 That's a silly thing to think. If it wasn't a lot of money that ended up in your, it was $200 went into your account.

Speaker 7 You might not question that too much because if they have to take that $200 back at some point, you could probably stand that. You'll find a way to stand that.

Speaker 8 If it was $20,000, if this is $20,000 a year, if it's these huge amounts that Elon's talking about, people are going to mention that because if all that has to come out back like to be taken back in one go you're going to you're going to struggle yeah you're going to unless you're elon musk in which case you're going to feel it yeah and and i just don't believe any of the things that he's saying he's making it seem as if all you have to do is enter in like a random string of numbers we're rentering a random what what what security did you put in the system then you did not you essentially did nothing you just allowed somebody to expend one calorie of energy to cheat the system.

Speaker 8 You didn't do anything special. What you did was you changed, if I believe you, which I don't believe you, you changed one thing.

Speaker 8 He had an entire website that was dedicated to this stuff that so many people debunked.

Speaker 8 This is all just him very confidently saying over and over and over again, what he did at Doge without having to prove a single bit of it.

Speaker 7 Yeah, it's just take my word for it. There's another interesting thing that I spotted just as it was going on there.

Speaker 7 He talks about these payments as being zombie payments in that they might have been legitimate at one point.

Speaker 7 And I think it's worth juxtaposing the use of zombie there with the use of zombies for homeless people because a zombie payment is a payment that might have been legitimate at one point.

Speaker 7 And is that what we're talking about when it comes to the drug zombies, the homeless people? Are these people who might have been legitimate at one point but aren't anymore?

Speaker 7 I think his use of zombie in fairly close succession is kind of indicative of what's in his mind. I think

Speaker 8 so. This next bit is still continuing on with the Doge.
He's talking about how much fraud they uncovered.

Speaker 4 And my guess is that's probably at least $100 billion a year, maybe $200. And going where?

Speaker 4 I mean, there are millions of these payments.

Speaker 4 Millions. Yes, yes.
Millions of payments that are going to who knows where.

Speaker 4 Yes, so in a bunch of cases, there are fraud rings that operate, professional fraud rings that operate to exploit the system.

Speaker 4 They figure out some security hole in the system and they just do

Speaker 4 professional fraud.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 that's where we found, for example, people who were 300 years old in the Social Security Administration database.

Speaker 4 Aaron Powell, Jr.: Now, I thought that this was a mistake of not registering their deaths, that people were born like a long time ago, and it had defaulted to a certain number.

Speaker 4 And so, that after time, those people were still in the system. It was just an error of the way the accounting was done.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 that's not true. So there's, or at least one of two things must be true.

Speaker 4 There's a typo or some mistake in the computer or it's fraudulent. But we don't have any 300-year-old vampires living in America.
Allegedly. Allegedly.

Speaker 4 And we don't have people in some cases who are receiving payments who are born in the future.

Speaker 4 Born in the future. Born in the future.
Really? Yes.

Speaker 4 The people are receiving payments whose birth date

Speaker 4 was like in 2100 and something. Okay, so there's like next century.

Speaker 7 So first of all, Elon talks about how much he's saved there. 100 billion, maybe 200 billion.
These are big numbers, millions of payments. These are big numbers.

Speaker 7 So he must know what he's talking about because he's talking in terms of real numbers here, just confidently saying the numbers. I mean, one question.

Speaker 7 Except Joe does actually offer some pushback here. He's starting to push back.
So actually, that stuff you're talking about wasn't, didn't that turn out to just be a mistake in the system?

Speaker 7 It wasn't actually fraud it was just like an error and people were left in after they died and elo's response elon's response is nope that's not true okay we just take your word for it i guess yeah and then his response is well it's not that it's not true one of two things must be true either it's a typo or it's fraud but it's definitely not that they're 300 year old vampires well nobody thought there was people who would really 300 years old

Speaker 7 Joe's pushback was, it's a typo, and you said, that's not true. Well, either it is true or it's fraud.

Speaker 8 Yeah. Right.

Speaker 7 And it's the typo one. It's the typo one that you're saying isn't true.

Speaker 8 Yeah. Yeah.
That's a great point, Marsh. And

Speaker 8 we covered this. He's, he's not telling the truth.
The fact is, is that there are the people who were

Speaker 8 that had death dates and that seemed like they were very old. None of those people were receiving payments.

Speaker 8 They just didn't have the ability to check whether or not there was a death certificate associated with the accounts. They didn't close it out, but they didn't give those people money.

Speaker 8 And that's important piece. Those people were cut off and they haven't proven that they're dead yet.
So they haven't removed them from the system.

Speaker 8 But that's not it's not the same thing so yes he's it is either a typo or there's something wrong with it but genuinely none of those people were getting money anyway so we should just stop talking about it as if they were the the another really important piece to remember is is that the agency could have updated the database to fix it but that would cost nine million dollars to do and we've cut the funding of the social security administration so much that they don't have the the people the manpower or the money to put to this to fix the system.

Speaker 8 So that's why the system isn't fixed. And ask yourself why Elon's department was given this amount of money to hire a bunch of people and they didn't fix the system either.

Speaker 8 They didn't wind up fixing it either. And they had billions of dollars in their very specific Doge.
A Doge wound up costing us more money than it actually saved us.

Speaker 7 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 7 All these issues, these typos that they're talking about, the payments aren't actually going out, but there are data inaccuracies in the database that aren't affecting anything because there's no payments tied to it.

Speaker 7 And they cost $9 million to fix. So because of efficiency, they decided not to fix it.
That's the story here.

Speaker 8 Okay. So now this next toolbox is just skipping a little ahead.
They're talking about fraud and how if it's trackable or not.

Speaker 4 And so, but all this, is it trackable? Like all this other fraud.

Speaker 4 If they wanted to, they could chase it all down. Yeah, it's not even hard.
And yet they're opposing

Speaker 4 chasing it all down. They're opposing chasing it all down because it turns off the money magnet for the illegals.
Wow. Because it's very logical to, like,

Speaker 4 I'm saying the most common sense things possible.

Speaker 4 If someone's got a birthday in Social Security that is an impossible birthday, meaning they are older than the oldest living American or were born in the future, then you should call them and say, excuse me, we seem to have your birthday wrong because it says that you're 200 years old.

Speaker 4 That's all you need to do.

Speaker 4 And then you would remove them from the Social Security database and make that number no longer available for all those other government payments. Exactly.
Wow.

Speaker 4 And how much money are we talking? It's hundreds of billions of dollars. And this is all traceable.
Like, you could hunt all of them.

Speaker 4 Like, you don't need to be Sherlock Holmes here. That's what I'm saying.
Well, this is. We don't need to call Sherlock Holmes for this one.
Is this part of it? You just need to call the person

Speaker 4 and say, excuse me,

Speaker 4 we seem to have the,

Speaker 4 like we

Speaker 4 must have your birthday wrong because it says you're 200 years old or born in the future.

Speaker 4 So, could you tell us what your birthday is? That's what we need to do. It says that simple.

Speaker 8 Okay, so the scam he's talking about here. I've got to sort of tell you what the scam is because we cut a little piece of tape out because it's just too long.

Speaker 8 But the scam that it takes him about five minutes to explain is essentially that people will use these 200-year-old accounts that aren't getting social security money, but they are using using those names and social security numbers of those people in order to use that to say that that person is alive in the database so they can then bilk the system for student loans,

Speaker 8 small business loans, et cetera, et cetera, all the money that the government gives out based on when they do a background check on you for your social security number.

Speaker 8 But what, like, what undocumented people are somehow figuring out which people are in the system for 200 years, and then they're using that system in order to to take those numbers.

Speaker 8 Like, what's, is this a long con? I don't understand even how this could even happen as he's describing it.

Speaker 7 Yeah, no, I agree. The scam makes absolutely no sense.
They're trying to get fake payments.

Speaker 7 So they figure the best way to do that as undetectable as possible is to make claims against a social security number with a birth date that's way off in the future.

Speaker 7 That is the one that's going to stand out.

Speaker 7 Like if you were going to pick a social security number to use to be undetectable, you'd pick one that didn't include a massive date, like a massive date error that was going to stand out.

Speaker 7 You pick one with a real date that doesn't stand out. So the scam makes no sense at all.
But he's saying it very confidently. So let's believe him, right?

Speaker 8 Here's the last clip in the toolbox section. This is about the Department of Education.

Speaker 4 What do you think could have been done if you just had like full reign and total cooperation? How much do you think you could have saved? I mean, what level of power are we assuming here? Godlike.

Speaker 4 Oh, yeah, I could probably cut the federal budget in half

Speaker 4 and get more done. That is so crazy.
It is so crazy.

Speaker 4 Get more done and federal budget in-spread. It's that widespread.
Well, I mean, a whole bunch of government departments simply shouldn't exist, in my opinion.

Speaker 4 Like examples. Well, the Department of Education, which was created recently, like under Jimmy Carter,

Speaker 4 our educational results have gone downhill ever since it was created.

Speaker 4 So, if you create a department and the result of creating that department is a massive decline in educational results, and it's the Department of Education, you're better off not having it because we're literally

Speaker 4 did better before there was one than after. When you let the states run it, yes.
Yeah. Because at least the states can compete with one another.

Speaker 4 So, but the problem is, like, you hear like counting Department of Education, well, our kids need education. Yeah, they do, but this is a new department that didn't even exist

Speaker 4 until the late 70s.

Speaker 4 And ever since that department was created, the results, educational results have declined. And so why would you have an institution continue that has made education worse? It doesn't make sense.

Speaker 4 They killed it, though, right? No, this is a little bit unfortunate. But they were trying to kill it.
It has been substantially reduced. Okay.

Speaker 7 So, yeah, he can cut the entire federal budget in half. Wow.
He said that so confidently. Let's believe him, guys.
It must be true.

Speaker 7 Yeah, it's just not. He's just kind of making this up.

Speaker 7 He also says the good thing about like, if you change the way that the education works, you can let the states run it and then at least the states can compete with one another. Why is that good?

Speaker 7 If you're a kid in a school in Oklahoma, why is it good for you that your school can compete effectively with a school in, you know, Alabama or something? Why is that useful to you?

Speaker 7 If it's not useful to the pupils in any way, that there is competition between schools, between states. That's not helping to raise the bar for everybody.

Speaker 8 Yeah. And look, these people don't understand why the Department of Education even exists.
The Department of Education isn't solely responsible for educational outcomes in our country.

Speaker 8 The people who are responsible are already the local communities, right? So they already, like when he's saying, well, they can compete with each other, they already do that.

Speaker 8 They literally already do that through property taxes. That already happens because poor communities in Arkansas do not get the same kind of education as a rich community around New York City.

Speaker 8 It's just, that's not how it works.

Speaker 8 And the thing is, is that the department exists very specifically to help poorer communities around the country get the same kind of education or the same kind of educational help that really rich

Speaker 8 communities have.

Speaker 8 A billionaire, of course, wouldn't see the use in this because their kids already get the very best education that they possibly can and they never have to worry about any of that stuff.

Speaker 8 Of course they wouldn't think it's worthwhile. Here's some of the things that they do.
Here's some of the things that the Department of Education does.

Speaker 8 It enforces civil rights laws to ensure equal access to education for all students.

Speaker 8 It administers a $18 billion title program that provides funding to districts that serve high volumes of low-income students to offset state and local funding disparities, what I had just mentioned.

Speaker 8 They provide a $14 billion to states and districts to support the education of more than 7.5 million students with disabilities under the Disabilities Education Act, strengthening their access to free and appropriate education.

Speaker 8 So the people in the country with disabilities,

Speaker 8 they get help very specifically from the Department of Education. An amazing thing that my tax scholars go to that I want to keep happening.
Okay.

Speaker 8 They operate $1.6 trillion in federal student loan program that benefits 42 million borrowers, allowing students to access higher education and strengthening the U.S. economy.
Here's the thing, man.

Speaker 8 I wouldn't have gone to college in the United States if it was not for student loans. If student loans didn't exist, I would have never, ever set foot in a college.
Yeah.

Speaker 8 Without these services, students that didn't start out rich wouldn't have a chance in

Speaker 8 our property-based educational system.

Speaker 4 Let's wrap it up with that.

Speaker 4 Thank you, sir. Appreciate you very much.
You're a beautiful person.

Speaker 8 Okay, Marsh. Are we doing something good?

Speaker 7 Look, it's a two-parter. We're doing a two-parter.
Ask me next week. Ask me next week, and I'll have something good for you.
I will.

Speaker 8 I don't think you will.

Speaker 7 Well, we will say. We're going to save.
We'll come back to it. We'll come back to it next week.

Speaker 7 So that is the show of this week. We're going to do the second part next week.

Speaker 7 Remember that you can access more than half an hour of bonus content every single week from as little as a dollar an episode. You can do that by subscribing at patreon.com forward slash no rogan.

Speaker 7 Meanwhile, you can hear more from Cecil at cognitive dissonance and citation needed, and you can hear more from me at skeptics with a K and the Skeptic podcast.

Speaker 7 And we will be back next week for part two of this No Rogan experience.

Speaker 8 If you love the show, please rate and share it. If you want to get in touch with us, become a patron, or check out the show notes, go to knowrogan.com.

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