#0042 - Bari Weiss

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Speaker 4 On this episode, we cover the Joe Rogan Experience number 1415 with guest Barry Weiss. The No Rogan experience starts now.

Speaker 4 Welcome back to the show. This is the podcast where two people with 123 hours of Joe Rogan experience get to know Joe Rogan.

Speaker 4 It's a show for anyone who's curious about Joe Rogan and his guests and what claims they make, as well as anyone who just wants to understand Joe's ever-growing media influence.

Speaker 4 I'm Michael Marshall and I'm joined today by Cecil Cicarello. And we are going to be covering Joe's January 2020 interview with Barry Weiss.
So Cecil, how did Joe introduce Barry in the show notes?

Speaker 5 It says Barry Barry Weiss is an American opinion writer and editor. In 2017, Weiss joined the New York Times as staff editor in the opinion section.

Speaker 5 Her new book, How to Fight Anti-Semitism, is now available.

Speaker 4 Okay, okay. So,

Speaker 4 is there anything else we should know about Barry Weiss?

Speaker 5 Well, more recently, she was just hired as the CBS at CBS News as the editor-in-chief. So, she's been an op writer for many years.

Speaker 5 She started out at the Wall Street Journal, and then she went to The Times. Weiss founded the media company, The Free Press, and hosts the podcast, Honestly.
Weiss is very much a centrist.

Speaker 5 Her opinions range, and some of them can be left-leaning, some of them can be right-leaning.

Speaker 5 But for the most part, she spent a lot of her opinion columns trying to provoke with a sort of enlightened centrism. She's Jewish and she's very pro-Israel.

Speaker 5 She was hired by David Ellison, the CEO of Skydance Media, which is the, they own, they're the part, they're the owner of CBS. And she was, she was hired to head the news department there.

Speaker 5 According to the Financial Times, she's in talks to sell her free press brand to CBS for $200 plus million dollars.

Speaker 5 The free press has called the famine in Gaza a myth, as well as a number of other pro-Israel stories.

Speaker 5 The Guardian wrote about her in September of this year, saying, quote, more than any other figure in her age cohort, Weiss wrote the playbook on canceling anti-Zionists and woke progressives, even as she decried cancel culture and claimed to champion free speech, end quote.

Speaker 4 Yeah, absolutely. So Barry Weiss is obviously a figure that is very much in the news right now, including at the top of the news in the sense of being in charge of CBS.

Speaker 4 So we figured it'd be interesting to go back and hear what it was that she said on Joe Rogan, because Joe was very impressed by Barry and the work that she's done.

Speaker 4 So that's why we're kind of covering her. So So what did they talk about in this interview?

Speaker 5 Well, they talked a lot about around her book. They didn't talk about her book directly until much later in the show, but they talk around her book, which is about anti-Semitism.

Speaker 5 So much of the discussion is about anti-Semitism. They talk about cancel culture, the woke mob, social media, Israel, if Bernie Sanders is Jewish.
They wonder that aloud.

Speaker 5 At least one of them does. Elizabeth Warren and her claims on whether or not she was a Native American, and a good bit of complaining that people are very, very mean on the internet.

Speaker 4 Yeah, absolutely. So, the main segment this week is going to be anti-Semitism, given that she's there to promote her book, How to Fight Anti-Semitism.

Speaker 4 But before we get into that, we need to thank our Area 51 all-access past patrons. And they are the Blue Ridge True Crime Podcast, Dr.
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Speaker 4 This week, Barry will call for MMA fighters to take to the streets in Jew face. She will do that.
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Speaker 4 So you can check all that out at patreon.com forward slash no rogan. But first, now it is time for our main event.

Speaker 4 It's time.

Speaker 4 So a huge thank you to this week's veteran voice of the podcast. That was Kyle Jenkins Tattoo from Portland, Oregon.
They were announcing our main event.

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Speaker 5 All right. So as Marsh said before, this is going to be a main event focusing mostly on anti-Semitism and very specifically Barry Weiss's views on what anti-Semitism is.

Speaker 5 And so there is a lot of tape on anti-Semitism. We didn't cover it all, but we are covering some of the things that feel to us a little out of place.

Speaker 5 So we're going to play some of those pieces for you right now.

Speaker 4 This is the stuff that's particularly relevant. It is worth saying at the top, I don't know why we'd have to say this, but we are going to say this.
We are against anti-Semitism. We think

Speaker 4 racism towards Jewish people is

Speaker 4 as obvious and valid a form of racism as all other forms of racism and is contemptible. You know, we absolutely condemn that.
We don't support that in any kind of way.

Speaker 4 And that includes things like

Speaker 4 assuming that all Jewish people are responsible for what's happening in Israel, confronting

Speaker 4 the issues of a state with the people, accusations of divided loyalty, all these kind of tropes that will come up quite often in anti-Semitic circles.

Speaker 4 Those are all incredibly damaging tropes and we're against them.

Speaker 4 So we're going to say that because we are going to be talking about her particular views on anti-Semitism and as she brings it forward to Joe here.

Speaker 5 Yeah, and it's also important to point out that the tape we didn't include, there's a lot of really good stuff that she says that is very informative about what anti-Semitism is and how it proliferates.

Speaker 5 So there's some tape that we just didn't include because it's great tape and there's no reason to correct any record on it. She did a good job.
So we're not going to talk about that stuff.

Speaker 5 We're talking about some very specific points that she brings up. We're going to start with her and Joe talking.
Joe asks a very interesting question about whether or not Bernie is Jewish.

Speaker 5 Is Bernie Jewish?

Speaker 6 Are you kidding? Sounds like it. Of course.
You never pay attention to Jewish.

Speaker 6 I pay so little attention to people's religion.

Speaker 2 Oh, but Bernie Bernie embodies

Speaker 2 the Brooklyn Jew. Oh, he certainly does.

Speaker 6 This is the name. Bernie.
And then Sanders. Bernie Sanders, yes.

Speaker 2 Not religious.

Speaker 6 Do you think, going back to your book, do you think?

Speaker 2 Going back to my book, we haven't started on it, but sure.

Speaker 6 We touched it. We touched it.
We went like a couple times. We touched it a couple times.

Speaker 6 Do you think that that could be an issue?

Speaker 2 No, I don't. I think it might be.

Speaker 2 No, I just don't see that being an issue with him. I mean, it's not a fundamental part of his identity, unlike Elizabeth Warren's Native American roots.
He's not running on it.

Speaker 2 He says he's a proud Jew, but he's not religious really at all. I just don't.
I don't see it. I don't see it.

Speaker 6 You don't see it being an issue?

Speaker 2 I think he'll maybe use it as a way of.

Speaker 2 I think one of the things that people are going to say about Bernie, especially from the right, is they're going to attack him on his foreign policy credentials. And they're going to say that he is

Speaker 2 not going to be a good ally of Israel, not serious on foreign policy, not hawkish. And they'll point to the fact that some of his surrogates are extremely problematic people like Linda Sarsour.

Speaker 2 And I think in that sense, Bernie's Jewishness will be important because I think he'll use it to say, but I'm Jewish. You know, like, how dare you accuse me of X, Y, and Z thing.

Speaker 6 Right, right.

Speaker 2 But I don't think it's going to, like, if you're, I think you're asking, is it disqualifying for people? And I don't see it that way at all.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I was saying, would it be a factor that some people don't want a Jewish president?

Speaker 2 I see it being more of a factor with someone like a Mike Bloomberg that's like, do you want a Jewish billionaire? Like, that plays into a lot of stereotypes.

Speaker 4 Okay, so a lot to talk about here. First of all, I think it's interesting that Joe starts this by honestly wondering whether Bernie Sanders was Jewish.
And he's saying, well, I don't really know.

Speaker 4 I don't really pay attention to people's religion, but that sort of feels like a bit of a bullshit cop out. It feels like he's doing the, I just don't see color of Jewishness.

Speaker 4 And I don't think that may well be honest. And if it is, then we kind of have to question how

Speaker 4 across these types of issues Joe is more generally, because I don't think anybody would say like Bernie Sanders is somebody who

Speaker 4 his Jewishness is something that's unknown. I think he's pretty kind of open about that, about being a secular atheist Jew.

Speaker 4 So I think that's, I think that is, I think that's interesting, worth pointing out.

Speaker 5 Maybe he's like, maybe he's like Kamala Harris, who just became black recently, according to Trump. Maybe that's it.
Like, yeah, he's just like, oh, he just became black. Now he just became a Jew.

Speaker 5 Who knows, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4 And then I also think it's interesting for Barry Weiss here to bring up that she doesn't think it would have been an issue for people that Bernie being Jewish would have been an issue for people, because I think that's a fascinating thing to say for someone who wrote, who is promoting a book about anti-Semitism.

Speaker 4 And she'll talk in this interview about how anti-Semitism is pervasive pervasive throughout American society, throughout Western society, how it is a form of racism that people aren't always alive to checking, aren't always looking for, aren't always able to recognize and will mistake it for lots of other things.

Speaker 4 So she has been writing and thinking about anti-Semitism a lot. But she thinks that there'd be just no issue at all for people to be voting for, like his Jewishness wouldn't come in.

Speaker 4 I think that is at best naive.

Speaker 4 I think for some people, it certainly oughtn't to be, but just as Barack Obama's race was an issue for some people, I think Bernie being Jewish would have been an issue for some people.

Speaker 4 They may not have been explicit about that. They may have explained all the things they don't like about Bernie without ever saying what it is they really don't like about Bernie.

Speaker 4 But I think it's naive to say that it wouldn't be an issue for somebody whilst also promoting a book about how pervasive anti-Semitism is at all levels of American society.

Speaker 4 And even to go further and say it would have been a strength for him because he could have used it in this kind of way. I I think that's incredibly, incredibly naive.

Speaker 4 She is, however, right that she brings in the Mike Bloomberg trope of a Jewish billionaire and that playing into that stereotype. I think she's absolutely right about that.

Speaker 4 I just think she's naive about just how much anti-Semitism there is in certain sections of society.

Speaker 5 Yeah, you know, like you say, I'm sure a bunch of people that would have never voted for a Jewish person already had a guy in that election.

Speaker 5 So they were 100% not going to vote for anybody on this side anyway.

Speaker 5 But I think, I think there's the, you know, pin in this sort of hedging on Bernie Sanders, because I think that there is

Speaker 5 always this fine line of centrism she's trying to walk.

Speaker 5 And we'll talk about this in the undercard in a lot of ways too, when she's talking about social media and how they're talking about, there's always got to be a feeling like the left is as bad as the right.

Speaker 5 And so a lot of times, no matter what, she has to sort of bring up problems with the left.

Speaker 5 And here she's bringing up problems with Bernie Sanders, what she calls hawkishness, but really it's support for Israel, right? That's what she's bringing up. And that's the negative.

Speaker 5 That's the negative thing that she's going to point out here. And that's just a sort of a way in which she approaches the world.
And you can see from a lot of this interview, it's, I'm a centrist.

Speaker 5 And it's something, it brings me back to something you said when we were covering Will Storr. Now, this is a bonus episode.

Speaker 5 And you had said, Will Storr loves to stay in the middle because then he can feel superior to both sides.

Speaker 5 And I think like there's a lot of that going on in this where she will talk about something really horrible on the right, but then also just be like, oh, but also the left is bad.

Speaker 5 And then she constantly kind of tries to bring that up. And I think like often her brain gets stuck in that mode.

Speaker 5 And she's trying to do that, I think, a little bit here too, because there's an unnecessary shot at Warren out of nowhere there to say, oh, well, she's running on being a Native American.

Speaker 5 No, she wasn't. That was like a passing comment about her being attacked for something.
That's not her running on that.

Speaker 5 That's you taking an opportunity to shit on somebody really quickly as you pass by them.

Speaker 4 Yeah,

Speaker 4 I think that's very true. And I think even on that Warren thing, it sort of, it was making me think about

Speaker 4 the attacks on Elizabeth Warren weren't about her being a woman. And there were very good reasons why people wouldn't vote for Kamala Harris.
That weren't about her being a woman.

Speaker 4 There were very good reasons about why people wouldn't vote for Hillary Clinton. That weren't about her being a woman.

Speaker 4 But those reasons were far easier accepted by people because they didn't want to vote for a woman, whether they want to admit it or not, there was an inherent misogyny.

Speaker 4 And I think that's the kind of thing we'd also see with Bernie Sanders. There would be some people who, whether they realize or not, didn't want to vote for a Jewish president.

Speaker 4 And so would find all these other very, very good reasons that they would consider disqualifying, but they're willing to accept those reasons because of their anti-Semitic beliefs.

Speaker 4 So I think it's very naive of her to at least put this forward. But I think you're right.
It's that she's playing that centrist line of both sides are equally bad.

Speaker 4 And that kind of false equivalence is an attempt to be fair, but actually what it does is show that you aren't a objective, or you aren't capable of trying to be objective.

Speaker 4 You're just trying to slap yourself in the middle and say, well, there we go. Once I'm in the middle, I can criticize all ends of the spectrum equally.

Speaker 5 Next clip here is about Charlottesville.

Speaker 2 And I mean, that awakening happened a little bit before Pittsburgh, which is, it happened,

Speaker 2 I think it was April 2017. You'll correct me.
When was the Charlottesville march? Remember, the Unite the Right march?

Speaker 6 Jane, you'll find out.

Speaker 2 But I remember being shocked, right, when those people were marching and they were shouting blood and soil, like Blunten Boden, which is a Nazi slogan.

Speaker 6 And the Jew will not replace us.

Speaker 2 Exactly, right? And the Jew will not replace us. And when I heard the Jew, yeah, sorry, August 2017.
When I heard Jew, like the Jews will not replace us, right?

Speaker 2 I heard it in like the plain meaning of that phrase. like the Jew is not going to take my job.
The Jew is not going to like take my job in the corner office or whatever.

Speaker 2 But in fact, it was like a reflection of this replacement theory ideology, which is that brown people and black people and Muslims and immigrants are coming to replace our white civilization. And the

Speaker 2 Jews' job is basically to pass as a white person, but in fact, do the bidding of these people that we deem to be not pure.

Speaker 4 Okay. So, this is really interesting to me.
She starts off, she's talking about Pittsburgh. She's talking about the Tree of Life massacre, where a gunman killed Jewish people at a synagogue.

Speaker 4 It was actually her synagogue. That's what inspired her to write this book about fighting anti-Semitism.

Speaker 4 It's a synagogue she attended, and members of her family knew some of the people who were in the synagogue at the time. So, that is kind of the context when she says Pittsburgh.

Speaker 4 She's writing about this because, understandably, she is deeply touched and deeply affected by these anti-semitic shootings that are happening that is kind of the background here

Speaker 4 i therefore think it's interesting that this is what she's bringing forward about the great replacement theory this is what she believes because this is an awkward thing i don't want to have to i don't want to be explaining anti-semitism to a jewish writer who's written a book about anti-semitism whose life has been directly affected by anti-semitism but what she's saying about the role of jewish people in the great replacement theory is not true there that is not what the great replacement theory believes.

Speaker 4 So obviously this is a completely, deeply untrue and racist conspiracy theory. 100%.
This is made up by racists in order to try and convert and radicalize other racists against people of color.

Speaker 4 That's what the great replacement idea is.

Speaker 4 But the idea of it, and we touched on it at various points in this show in the past, is that believers are taught that the reason there is mass migration of Muslims and people of color into white majority countries is a deliberate attempt to dilute and eradicate the political power and the racial purity of the white race.

Speaker 4 Okay. And she's right about that.
She says about how, you know, black and brown and Muslim people and immigrants are coming to replace our white civilization. She's right there.

Speaker 4 However, once we get further than that, those believers, they believe that that migration isn't a coincidence, but that it is in fact being driven and orchestrated by Jewish elites who either hate white people or they want to take the power from white people.

Speaker 4 That is the great replacement theory. You know, they describe it as loxism, which is the racism faced by white people at the hands of Jewish people.
That is the great replacement theory.

Speaker 4 This is a racist conspiracy theory, but if we're talking about what their ideology is, which is what she's doing here, we should be accurate here.

Speaker 4 And when she's saying, you know, that it's the Jews' job in the great replacement theory is to pass as a white person to do the bidding of the people we deem not pure, she's talking about thinking, she's saying that she believes that in the strata of the hierarchy of power in the great replacement theory, it's Muslim and people of color at the top and then Jewish people below them and then white people.

Speaker 4 That is not what the great replacement theory is saying.

Speaker 4 The great replacement theory is saying there's a minority of Jewish people at the top who are using immigrants and people of color to weaken and destroy the white race.

Speaker 4 The thing about this is the tree of life shooter at that synagogue that she's written about explicitly believed in this anti-Semitic version of the conspiracy theory.

Speaker 4 So we could say that, well, maybe she didn't have cause to really look into the theory.

Speaker 4 But the inciting incident for her writing about this stuff, the Tree of Life massacre, the guy who did that shooting, a guy who Bowers, had written that he believed that Jews were helping transport members of migrant caravans, that he believed those migrant caravans were violent and they were there.

Speaker 4 They were attempting to leave countries that high level of violence and that's what made them violent. He said they were invaders.

Speaker 4 He made numerous anti-Semitic remarks on Gab, calling the Jews the children of Satan and fretting about the omnipotence of the Zionist occupied government, which obviously doesn't exist.

Speaker 4 He also subscribed to the idea that Jewish forces are scheming to dilute the white race by importing refugees and immigrants.

Speaker 4 And that is what the torch-bearing Unite the Right marchers meant when they said, Jews will not replace us. She's saying that she heard that as Jews will not take my job.
That is not what it means.

Speaker 4 It means Jews will not replace us with somebody else. They will not replace the white people with brown people or people of color or immigrants or Muslims in order to weaken the white race.
Right.

Speaker 4 And honestly, I feel really uncomfortable having to explain all of this

Speaker 4 because

Speaker 4 I'm not Jewish. I wasn't affected directly by that attack, but I am somebody who spent years

Speaker 4 investigating these conspiracy theories and spending time, you know, literally years online in Telegram channels where these conspiracy theories come up all the time.

Speaker 4 So I spend a lot of time around people who hold these beliefs in order to better understand them.

Speaker 4 And it sounds like Barry Weiss has a poor understanding of the anti-semitic motives of the gunman who murdered people at literally her own synagogue despite being on joel rogenshaw here to promote a book she wrote about anti-semitism and how to fight it and i'd argue you can't fight anti-semitism if you don't first understand it and it seems like she doesn't fully understand it here Yeah, it feels like there's a softening of her stance on the very on this very specific conspiracy theory, which is a horrible, disgusting conspiracy theory and should be, you know, it almost feels like you're, you're not pulling

Speaker 5 the cover completely off of it. You're pulling it partway back, but you're not pulling it all the way off.
And

Speaker 5 I have no idea why she decided to say it this way because it's not a good explanation of it. And it's not how they think about it either.
So I don't know why she's choosing to do it this way.

Speaker 5 Maybe it's a right choice.

Speaker 4 Maybe she genuinely has no idea. Maybe she genuinely doesn't know it.

Speaker 5 But if that's the case, like, why are we trusting her to be the news editor at CBS?

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 5 Now they're going to continue to talk about

Speaker 5 Jew as a trope.

Speaker 2 But the idea of the Jew as sort of like the wily manipulator, as the Jew as having proximity to power, not being in power, but being able to sort of be the puppet master, pulling the levers of power, you see that play out in lots of different iterations through time, right?

Speaker 2 You see it

Speaker 2 I'm trying to think about useful examples for your listeners, but that is sort of the trope, right? And it is

Speaker 2 an ancient one, but it's being utilized in really new ways.

Speaker 2 So it's not literally that the Jew is going to replace us, is that the Jew who, the Jew in a way, is sort of like the greatest trick the devil has ever played.

Speaker 2 And this is the language of Eric Ward, who wrote this amazing essay called Skin in the Game. And he talks, he's a black anti-racist activist.

Speaker 2 And he talks about figuring out how anti-Semitism is kind of the linchpin of white supremacy because the Jew appears to be white, but in fact, he's not white.

Speaker 2 I mean, this is all based on this lie that race is not a social, that race is not a construct, right? It's which it is.

Speaker 2 But they're saying that the Jew is not white, but he appears to be white, but in fact, he's loyal to these people who are coming to sully America.

Speaker 4 So again, I mean, first of all, kudos to her for pointing out on Joe Ruggenshaw that race is a social construct. I don't know whether that's something that a lot of guests would say.

Speaker 4 So I'm glad that she did say that. But again, she's fundamentally misunderstanding us here.

Speaker 4 The Jewish, in the Great Replacement Theory, the idea isn't that Jewish people are loyal to the migrants and people of color and other races who are coming into America to sully it.

Speaker 4 The idea is that the Jewish people are in control of that. And she even says, you know, the Jewish people, they're not in power.
They're pulling the strings on the puppets of power.

Speaker 4 If you are the one pulling the strings, you're in power.

Speaker 6 That is what that one is about.

Speaker 4 Nobody thinks the puppet master works for the puppet.

Speaker 4 Nobody thinks the person on the other end of the marionette is working for the marionette. That's not how this works.

Speaker 4 So it seems this very odd reluctance to either accept or to explore enough that to the point where she understands what the anti-Semitic conspiracy theory she's there to talk about is actually about, what it actually says about Jewish people.

Speaker 4 And I find it fascinating in a way that I can't quite explain why she would have this misunderstanding of things if she spent time looking into it.

Speaker 5 One thing I want to point out is if you go to the

Speaker 5 YouTube video of this, there are a ton of anti-Semitic comments. And I want to read a few of these right now.

Speaker 5 There was a comment that said, you know, and this isn't an anti-Semitic comic, right? Like, so this comment isn't necessarily anti-Semitic.

Speaker 5 It says, the fact that this lady is employed at the New York Times should tell you all you need to know about the state of our media, right? Like, that's not necessarily anti-Semitic, but underneath.

Speaker 4 She's not very good. She works in media.

Speaker 5 The media isn't very good. Not necessarily.
I mean, it might be, right?

Speaker 5 I have no idea what that person means by that, but it could mean that she's just not good at her job, which we are going to say throughout most of this anyway, right?

Speaker 5 So I meant necessarily that, but the person underneath said, they put a comment that said, J media, meaning Jewish media. Another person said, J nepotism, meaning Jewish nepotism.

Speaker 5 Another person under that said, Jews eat human meat. Enough said.
Look up McDonald's and what's really in your burgers. But not all burgers are human, unfortunately.
So McDonald's will stay in biz.

Speaker 5 Another person said her next headline, how the like-dislike ration, it should be ratio, on the JRE podcast proves that Western cultures is founded on anti-Semitic principles, to which someone responded, 6 million dislikes.

Speaker 5 Now, that's a reference to the Holocaust there,

Speaker 5 if you needed that.

Speaker 5 uh bridge if you needed me to bridge those two together and then then the last comment i'll read instead of saying jew they say ooh so they say a oo will always tell you what happened to them but they'll never specify why it happened.

Speaker 5 Life's eternal victim. Now, those are just a handful of comments on literally two other comments that I saw when I hit the sort of what's underneath these to show the replies.
That's just two of them.

Speaker 5 There's thousands of comments on here. I guarantee there is a large smattering of anti-Semitism that just goes right under YouTube's filters.

Speaker 4 Yeah, absolutely. And it sounds an awful like content moderation is needed for this social media platform to ensure that ideas that aren't acceptable don't proliferate and normalize.

Speaker 4 Pinning that, we will talk about that in the undercut. Yeah.

Speaker 4 It also,

Speaker 4 it's hard to know whether that is reflective of Joe's audience or reflective of Barry Weiss's kind of anti-audience of

Speaker 4 or whether it's something else like this got brigaded by being posted to an overtly white supremacist space. But it is deeply troubling to see that stuff just casually out there open in YouTube.

Speaker 4 And that is the anti-Semitism that is pervasive in society that Barry Weiss is correct to identify. And we'll point out

Speaker 4 in this episode that she does do that.

Speaker 5 The next clip we're going to play is

Speaker 5 more about anti-Semitism.

Speaker 2 The reason that anti-Semitism is resurgent right now is because, I'm not justifying it, but it's because we're in, going back to our earlier conversation, a time where people are disoriented, they're disaffected, they're confused, they're shortchanged, and they're looking for an easy answer.

Speaker 6 So they're looking for a scapegoat. Yes.
But there's no lines that point to Jews. This is what's so confusing to me.
It's like

Speaker 6 there's no clear thing. Do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 Well, it's, you have to wrap your mind around the idea, which is a huge, huge, huge idea, that anti-Semitism is built into the scaffolding of Western civilization, period. It's never going away.

Speaker 2 It's like, think about it like an intellectual disease that's built into the foundations of the civilization that we live in.

Speaker 2 And in times where that civilization or that's our given society is healthy, anti-Semitism, along with xenophobia and racism and all kinds of other bigotry, are sort of kept in check.

Speaker 2 And when the society becomes unhealthy, and we're living in a deeply unhealthy society in many different ways right now, anti-Semitism is something that people reach for.

Speaker 4 So again, we'll give credit where it's due. They're talking about scapegoating.

Speaker 4 I mean, she's saying, and I think she's absolutely right, that, you know, when people are in a time of disaffection, disorientation, feeling like

Speaker 4 they're confused, there's something wrong with the world, they look for scapegoats. We absolutely saw that.

Speaker 4 Arguably, I mean, given that this went out in January 2020, we were about to enter a very intense period of exactly that.

Speaker 4 And in fact, those kind of forces are prime radicalization forces.

Speaker 4 One could argue that both the two people on that conversation would be subjected to those radicalization forces and end up in slightly more extreme positions as a result of them.

Speaker 4 But she's right that people do do that. They're right about scapegoating.
Joe brings up scapegoating. He's absolutely right to do so.
So, you know, fair play to him to bring that up.

Speaker 4 But he seems to say, I think what he's getting at is, well, why would they

Speaker 4 scapegoat the Jews when the Jews are innocent or when the Jews aren't doing it?

Speaker 4 It feels like he's looking for, well, they shouldn't be scapegoated because there isn't a legitimate reason to scapegoat them, which is a fundamental misunderstanding of how scapegoating works.

Speaker 4 Like, if there was a reason, would it then be okay to be anti-Semitic?

Speaker 4 exactly i think that's where you want to go with this um but the other thing is she's describing here about how you know xenophobia and things like that are these things that are pervasive in society and when a society is healthy it keeps them in check and and how these things are you know um built into the scaffolding of western civilization she's describing structural racism here And they both accept that that is a thing when it comes to Jewish people, but they do reject it out of hand as nonsense wokeism gone too far.

Speaker 4 I mean, she made her name in part as an anti-woke opinion writer.

Speaker 4 So when that structural racism is about people who aren't Jews, she seems to have a much bigger problem with it than what it is talking about the structural racism faced by Jewish people.

Speaker 4 And I think that's a point that is that is worth highlighting because I would argue that structural racism is bad regardless of

Speaker 4 the race that's being targeted by it.

Speaker 5 Yeah, that's a great point, Marsha. And that is something that is pervasive throughout this whole thing and pervasive throughout her whole career.

Speaker 5 There is is definitely a downplaying of racism and other things when she's talking about other people and their struggles. So I think like that's a really important thing to point out.

Speaker 5 I also think too,

Speaker 5 maybe not start an analogy with Joe when it comes, when you're starting to try to explain something to Joe, don't base your analogy around disease because I'm not sure Joe understands disease well enough to actually have a good, like for you to make a good analogy around that, he may have some really crazy opinions about why disease spreads and how it doesn't true but this is jewel from january 2020 so he may have quite mainstream views on disease at this point very very true very true a point taken marge point taken all right next clips about the founding fathers

Speaker 2 the reason it's very hard to talk about this is because it's so enormous it's like accepting the fact that it's like you have to accept as a foundational principle that this is baked into the world that we live in and we're never going to cure it and it's never going to go completely away.

Speaker 2 The best thing that we can do is build healthy cultures that protect certain virtues like liberty, like freedom of the individual, like religious liberty, all the things.

Speaker 2 It's not a coincidence that America has been so good for the Jews.

Speaker 2 It's because so many of the ideas that protect minorities and religious minorities, like Jews, were sort of for all of their fault, for all of the founders' faults, right?

Speaker 2 And they had many, including owning people. But, you know, George Washington, in his, he writes this letter to the first Jewish community of this country in Rhode Island.

Speaker 2 And he says something that was then incredibly radical, which is pathetic that it was, but he says, you know, Jews in America are not just going to be tolerated. They're going to possess

Speaker 2 the same

Speaker 2 citizenship as everyone else. That at the time was a radical departure from history.

Speaker 4 So on that topic of structural racism against Jewish people compared to structural racism against other cultures and other races,

Speaker 4 she is casually dismissing the ownership of enslaved people as a fault that the Founding Fathers had. The Founding Fathers had some faults, including owning people, but they had a, you know,

Speaker 4 they were radically tolerant and, you know, radically open and accepting of Jewish people.

Speaker 4 I don't think you, I think it shows a lack of self-awareness to laud the radical departure of giving Jewish people equal power while hand-waving away as a fault the fact that they weren't giving that power to people of color, to black people who were at the time still slaves, still enslaved.

Speaker 4 And just the fact that those two things are juxtaposed in the same sentence is fascinating to me.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it's like saying, well, you know, for all Harvey Weinstein's faults, he sure as hell could produce a movie. You know, the guy could really just make a great movie.

Speaker 5 Come on now. Yeah.

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Speaker 5 Okay, welcome back. Let's jump right back in.
All right. Next up,

Speaker 5 they're going to be talking about anti-Semitic countries.

Speaker 2 But the thing that's strange, again, about this particular pathology is that some of the most anti-Semitic countries in the world are countries with no Jews, right? Like Egypt has less than 20 Jews.

Speaker 2 20? 20.

Speaker 6 Do you know them? No. Do you guys have a newsletter?

Speaker 2 There's one in Afghanistan.

Speaker 6 Jesus, one person? Get out.

Speaker 2 One. Who are you?

Speaker 6 Hey, Jew in Afghanistan. Bro.

Speaker 2 He's there. There were two until recently, and of course they weren't talking to each other.

Speaker 6 Hop on a yak. Fucking make your way over the mountain.

Speaker 2 No, but the point is, like, Egypt's one of the most anti-Semitic countries in the world, and there are no Jews there.

Speaker 6 How do you explain that? Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 4 So, okay, I get the point that she's making here. The idea that places with the lowest diversity typically have higher levels of intolerance.
I get that. I understand that.

Speaker 4 I mean, it's the idea that familiarity, people say familiarity breeds contempt. It doesn't.
It breeds trust.

Speaker 4 It breeds community.

Speaker 4 I understand that. That was the case where I grew up.
You know, where I grew up, there was almost no racial diversity in not just my village, but the surrounding villages.

Speaker 4 You would just, you would not see people who didn't look almost exactly like you.

Speaker 4 And there were a lot of people there who wanted to keep it that way.

Speaker 4 Growing up, there's parts of my village that had swastikas sprayed on the walls, even though there was nobody those could have been targeted at.

Speaker 4 You know, there were stickers on the lampposts for the neo-Nazi paramilitary group combat machine yeah yeah just like it is it that's just was part of the culture of the the village in the northeast i grew up with and partly that's because they never met anybody from outside of our race and people you know so familiarity lack of familiarity was what was breeding intolerance there so i understand that and that is a a very valid point however i don't think egypt is the best example of that Because she's saying, how can you explain a situation like Egypt, where there's so few Jewish people and yet they hate Jews so much?

Speaker 4 They're so anti-Semitic. And she was asking that like it's a complete mystery.
How do you explain that? It makes no sense. I don't think it's as much of a mystery.

Speaker 4 It's the result of a series of wars and conflicts and ethnic tensions. And this isn't me justifying it, but it is me explaining the history of it.
It's not like this sprung up out of nowhere.

Speaker 4 There is a deep and long-standing history behind all this kind of stuff.

Speaker 4 It's intrinsically tied up with the Balfour Declaration, the establishment of Israel in Palestine, which we can euphemistically say has been far from smooth sailing over the last like century or so, or just less than a century since the Balfa Declaration.

Speaker 4 There's been the outbreak of several wars, including the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. So, just looking at this CBS report, so she should be quite happy with it on the Arab-Israeli war.

Speaker 4 Here's a quote: Before the Arab-Israeli war in 1948, there were around 80,000 Jews in Europe in Egypt. So, 80,000 Jews in Egypt in 1948.

Speaker 4 But as the conflict between the Arabs and Israel continued, the numbers declined. War broke out again in 1956, known as the Suez Crisis, the Sinai War, or the

Speaker 4 tripartite aggression, sparking a mass emigration of Jews from Egypt. So, wars sparked mass exoduses.

Speaker 4 Here's another thing, just from Wikipedia, in fact. The complexity of Egyptian Jews' lives can't be divorced from the wider political events, such as the Palestine War.

Speaker 4 Despite their contributions to Egyptian societies, attitudes towards Egyptian Jews worsened over time, exacerbated by events like the Suez War and suspicions of involvement in Zionist activities.

Speaker 4 Many Egyptian Jews faced increased insecurity and were arrested during the Suez War, leading to a significant decrease in their numbers in the years following the conflict.

Speaker 4 The secret police raided Jewish-owned properties on an occasional basis and arrested Jewish citizens.

Speaker 4 After the crisis of 1956, the secret police raided Jewish properties, arrested thousands of citizens. Thousands of Jews began to depart Egypt due to the increasing pressure.

Speaker 4 Some 23,000 to 25,000 Jews out of the 42,000 in Egypt left, mainly for Israel, Western Europe, United States.

Speaker 4 Many were forced to sign declarations that they were voluntarily emigrating and agreed to the confiscation of their assets. Similar measures were enacted against British and French nationals as well.

Speaker 4 By 1957, the Jewish population had fallen to 15,000. So

Speaker 4 to say that it's, you know, why is there such kind of mysterious tensions against Jewish people, mysterious anti-Semitic sentiment in Egypt against Jewish people when there are so few few Jewish people there, I think without understanding or giving the context that this is as a result of a series of anti-Semitic orders enacted by the Egyptian government at the time,

Speaker 4 forced evacuations, forced exoduses, forced migrations. All of that is context that I think is very valuable to understand what's happening.

Speaker 4 And she doesn't give that to Joe, either because she doesn't know it or because she doesn't think it's worth bringing up at this point. But Joe is left with the, well, it makes no sense.

Speaker 4 If you see so, if there's so few Jewish people there, why would anyone have a problem with them?

Speaker 4 Yeah, the reason there aren't many Jews left in Egypt is it's not a quirk, and it's not necessarily as a result of currently existing anti-Semitic sentiment necessarily.

Speaker 4 It's all deeply tied in with the history of conflict and politics in the area. And that's something I'm not an expert in.

Speaker 4 I can't talk more than I, than I have about it here, but I've not written a book about modern anti-Semitism.

Speaker 4 And I'm not opinion on the biggest podcast in the world to tell 1.6 million people who've seen this on YouTube about anti-Semitism today.

Speaker 4 So to raise this as if it's kind of a head scratcher about why you would hate people you've never met

Speaker 4 seems like she's never either not done the research or doesn't want us to do the research.

Speaker 5 All right, moving on to the next clip. This one is how Jews form a tribe.

Speaker 6 Jews,

Speaker 6 Jewish people are very unusual in that they are a culture, a race, and a religion.

Speaker 2 A peoplehood.

Speaker 6 A peoplehood.

Speaker 6 We are a tribe.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 2 Like our categories don't fit modernity. And that's what's so confusing about us.
Yes. Right?

Speaker 2 Like we presaged all of those categories that you just laid out, which is what makes us so hard to categorize.

Speaker 6 The only thing that mirrors it in some way is Muslims. In some way, Muslims, they vary

Speaker 6 wildly in terms of how they look, in terms of what part of the world they're from, but they think of themselves as Muslims.

Speaker 6 But Christians think of themselves as Christian. Yes, but it's not as tribal.

Speaker 6 It's a minor, I mean, it's

Speaker 6 not a lot of difference but enough difference that you could categorize it in a different way but the the difference right is you can't be an atheist Christian or an atheist Muslim right you can be an atheist Jew that's where there's a million of them oh one of my best friends Ari Shafir is an atheist Jew it's it's a strange group

Speaker 4 so yeah again I kind of want to give her credit I know what she means here but I think that's also the fact that she holds those positions is also a product of what conflicts she she spent time around.

Speaker 4 You know, she's saying you can be an atheist Jew, but you can't be an atheist Muslim. You can't be an atheist Christian.
I don't know if that's necessarily true. I'd argue if you went to Belfast.

Speaker 4 you can absolutely be an atheist Christian.

Speaker 4 And what flavor of Christianity your atheism came out of would really matter to some people because of the history of the Catholic and Protestant conflict throughout the troubles there.

Speaker 4 So whether you're an atheist matters less than whether you were a Protestant or were a Catholic previously for some people.

Speaker 4 So it is a kind of, it can still be an issue of culture and religion. It can also be an issue of race.

Speaker 4 I think an atheist Christian and an atheist Muslim might well have very different experiences and cultural experiences to one another.

Speaker 4 Like Richard Dawkins considers himself culturally Christian, even though quite famously he's an atheist. So I think you can be an atheist Christian.

Speaker 4 Meanwhile, there are people who will express concerns about the number of Muslims coming into their neighborhood.

Speaker 4 They're not stopping first to ask what their position on Quranic doctrine is before they hurl their racist abuse.

Speaker 4 You know, they are against Muslims because of how they look, which is not a religious position. It's a racial position.

Speaker 4 So I think if you were brought up in a Muslim-majority country and were atheist and you left that country to come to the UK, I think your Muslimness would be not just religion because you're no longer religious.

Speaker 4 It would also be racial. It would also be cultural, depending on the conversations that you're in.
Your identity would be shifting tripartite in that kind of way.

Speaker 4 And I think she can understand that about Jewish people, but not about Muslim people.

Speaker 4 And similarly, it's a kind of Western supremacist kind of point of view to say that, well, this doesn't happen with Christians.

Speaker 4 When I, I quite imagine, if you were to be an atheist Christian living in Iran, the fact that you were from the UK originally, you were a white, white atheist Christian in Iran, your atheism would be tied up with your race and your culture too, because that's where those differences are.

Speaker 4 Like, I know people who've received anti-Muslim abuse, even though they are Hindu and Sikh.

Speaker 4 And even then they were atheist Hindu and they were atheist Sikh.

Speaker 4 And you can say they were atheist Hindu and atheist Sikh because those things are different because of the cultural baggage that's attached to them.

Speaker 4 You know, their beliefs are the same, but the cultural baggage they come from is different. So yeah, for some people, the religion just gives cover to what is a racial animus.

Speaker 4 And I think it's naive of Barry Wise to assume that that's only the case when it comes to Jewish people.

Speaker 4 I can understand what she means, but I think it's naive and it's not looking as broadly as she could be thinking about this to say that other people will suffer in a similar way, even if it's not exactly the same.

Speaker 5 All right, so the next clip about kinds of anti-Semitism.

Speaker 2 There are different kinds of anti-Semitisms. Like the kind that we've talked about that comes on the far right expresses itself one way.

Speaker 2 And there's also anti-Semitism that comes smuggled into the mainstream through the political left that comes cloaked in language that is very seductive, like the language of social justice and progress.

Speaker 2 And if the right claims that the Jews are, you know, fake white people, the far left claims that the Jews are handmaidens to white supremacy.

Speaker 2 So whiteness plays like a really, really key role in the way that anti-Semitism functions, right? And here, let me explain it this way. Anti-Semitism is a shape-shifting conspiracy theory.

Speaker 2 Accept that, right? And that is how under Nazism, Jews are the race contaminators. How under communism, we we are the arch capitalists, right?

Speaker 2 How under the idea of white supremacy, we are these fake white people, right?

Speaker 2 We appear to be white people, but we're actually doing the bidding of these groups who white supremacists view to be lesser than black people, brown people, Muslims, immigrants.

Speaker 2 And how on the far left, the Jews are seen as sort of the great, what is the greatest evil right now to the far left? Whiteness and white privilege. And Jews are seen as sort of handmaidens to that.

Speaker 2 Why? Because of our success, because many of us are of Eastern European descent. 85% of American Jews are of Ashkenazi, which is of Eastern European descent.

Speaker 2 So we pass as white, so we have white privilege.

Speaker 2 And so in the intersectional view of the world, right, which reverses the caste system that we've been living in until now, where you have someone like John Hamm at the very top and black transgender disabled people at the very bottom.

Speaker 2 Well, the intersectional worldview comes around and reverses that and says, no, John Hamm and cisgendered white men like Joe Rogan are now at the very bottom.

Speaker 2 And at the very top are the transgender black disabled person. And so where are the Jews in that new intersectional caste system of the world? We're kind of like right above John Ham.

Speaker 2 We're right near him because we have, we enjoy all of the sort of privileges that he enjoys. It's a crazy thing, but that's sort of where we are.

Speaker 4 I don't know that this is where we are, really. So she's got this criticism that

Speaker 4 people on the left will criticize Jews as being the handmaidens to white supremacy. I don't know where she's getting that from.
I've tried to really consider it and think about it.

Speaker 4 I'm drawing a blank, really. I've seen anti-Semitism on the left.
So if she's talking about the left-wing version of anti-Semitism, 100% that exists and is a real problem.

Speaker 4 But it's normally around things like divided loyalties. Somebody can't really truly be British if they're Jewish because they'll be also loyal to Israel.

Speaker 4 That is an anti-Semitic trope that has been, that has gone back for centuries of the idea about about being loyal to two different states and things.

Speaker 4 The conflation of Israel with Jewishness in the sense of blaming an individual Jewish person for something you don't like that the state of Israel has done is an anti-Semitic trope that's often coming from the left.

Speaker 4 So I can 100% agree with her that there's anti-Semitism from the left, but the handmaidens to white supremacy isn't one of those criticisms that I've seen.

Speaker 4 Ironically, it is explicitly part of the great replacement theory that she believes in,

Speaker 4 that the Jewish people are doing the bidding of the unpure people. And that's what white supremacists think.

Speaker 4 So I can understand how white supremacists would think that the Jewish people are the handmaidens to undoing that, but I haven't seen it on the other kind of side of it.

Speaker 4 Maybe I'm not fully understanding it.

Speaker 4 But I also think when she's talking, I think this comes out of her needing to see both sides as equally bad, needing to see herself in the center, needing to be anti-walk, sorry, anti-anti-walk.

Speaker 4 No, hang on. Needing to be anti-walk.
I've got myself kind of wrapped up a bit there. Her saying, like, well, you know,

Speaker 4 they would put, you know, white men at the top, but actually white men these days are at the bottom and black, disabled, trans people are at the top.

Speaker 4 This inversion of the, what she calls the intersectional caste system of the world, which just shows her bias as kind of dripping out over here, because I don't think anybody would say that from a position of

Speaker 4 who should be having power in society, John Hammond, Joe Rogan should now be at the bottom.

Speaker 4 Everybody who is putting forward these positions would argue that we should take away the barriers that stop people having a higher position in society,

Speaker 4 not put more barriers in place to bring people down. So, yeah,

Speaker 4 I'm just not fully understanding.

Speaker 4 And it's weird that she's talked about structural racism in this interview, but when it comes to Jewish people, but now she seems to think that structural racism, when it comes to black people or structural misogyny or structural transphobia, things like that, that all of those are nonsense far-left ideas.

Speaker 4 And that's why she's sort of dismissing white privilege as a genuine concern for anything.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it seems very micked here, and I'm just not really following what point she's trying to make. I don't know if you fared any better.

Speaker 5 No, I think, I think you kind of hit it on the head, though, when you're saying that she's trying to tread that center line. And in order to do that, she's got to shit on both sides.

Speaker 5 And I think what she's trying to do here is shit on intersectionality by saying it's just as racist as the things it's trying to upturn, right? It is just basically turning race.

Speaker 5 It's just when

Speaker 5 they they say, like, anti-racism is racism against white people, right? You've heard that before. I'm sure you've heard that many times.

Speaker 5 That's just, that's just somebody trying to say, you're just as racist as I am, and I'm not to blame.

Speaker 5 You're just as racist as me because you're on the left, but you're just as bad, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 5 And I think that's sort of where she's coming from on this to try to shit on intersectionality as if it means something. And I do think in that way, she's saying

Speaker 5 anti-Semitism is worse than anything else anti-semitism is the worst one that you can be you can be racist that's bad but being anti-semit being an anti-semite is way worse and i think like she's sort of grading whether which which form of racial supremacy is worse And I think like, it's all trash.

Speaker 5 We should just be like, hey, it's all trash.

Speaker 5 And she should think more carefully about intersectionality and how that works instead of trying to say, well, they're just trying to keep white people down with it.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I mean, the point she's saying about this new intersectional caste system of the world that puts at the very top, it's black, transgender, disabled people.

Speaker 4 If that is what she thinks is the

Speaker 4 prevailing worldview of woke people to evidence that, all she needs to do is look at anyone in positions of power and how many of them are black transgender disabled people.

Speaker 4 And if it really is this new intersectional caste system of the world, we should be seeing a massive proliferation of black disabled trans people in positions of power.

Speaker 4 And so far, I'm not seeing that. Maybe I'm looking in different places to her.

Speaker 4 Also, one thing I will point out in that she's saying this, who's now at the very top, she says black disabled transgender. She doesn't mention

Speaker 4 like misogyny in any way. She doesn't mention

Speaker 4 discrimination around homosexuality in any way. given that she's a gay or bisexual woman and makes that a very core part of her identity.

Speaker 4 So it's interesting that the parts parts of the of that intersectionality that apply to her aren't the ones that count in the caste system.

Speaker 4 It's only the labels that couldn't, the intersexual labels that she wouldn't be taking for herself are the ones that are at the very top of the new caste system that she's decrying.

Speaker 5 Next bit is about still about how people on the left attack Jews. This is Soviet propaganda of Zionism.

Speaker 2 And they're telling, you know, they're basically propagating, they're repeating without even realizing it, this Soviet propaganda line, which is that Zionism is racism, which is an unbelievable thing to say because the majority of Jews who live in Israel are Jews of North African and Middle Eastern descent.

Speaker 2 They are non-white people.

Speaker 4 They are Arabs.

Speaker 2 They are Arab Jews.

Speaker 2 And yet you have the far left basically exporting parochial domestic American racial politics onto a foreign conflict and place that they know absolutely nothing about.

Speaker 2 You know, these people are delusional.

Speaker 2 They think that like all of the conflict in the Middle East would be resolved if only we took care of this one tiny conflict between this tiny group of people and their neighbors, where in fact, it's like a tiny local conflict in this huge drama of the Middle East, of which there are a zillion players.

Speaker 2 And, you know, the Jews of Israel are only one tiny part of it.

Speaker 4 So yeah, I don't think anybody that I've met is suggesting that all of the Middle East would be completely

Speaker 4 conflict-free if there was peace in Palestine. I've just not seen that point.

Speaker 4 This is trying to bring people to a position where, well, there's no point calling for peace in that one conflict as long as there are any other conflicts in the entire region, which is obviously an incredibly silly point to make.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it's the Nirvana fallacy, right? Like, we can't fix everything in one fell sweep. Why even bother with it?

Speaker 6 Why try?

Speaker 5 All right. So now they're going to continue to talk about Palestine in this next bit here.

Speaker 6 When you see a situation like that where there doesn't seem to be a solution,

Speaker 5 it's...

Speaker 2 Well, the solution is shrinking the conflict as much as possible, right?

Speaker 2 I do not believe right now you can resolve the conflict because Israelis who have lived through times where it was normal for buses and cafes to just blow up.

Speaker 2 You know, the number of people I know who were touched by the second intifada, like I was there during times where, you know, a cafe would just blow up down the street.

Speaker 2 So like they they have been thoroughly disabused of the idea that

Speaker 2 I think that many of them have given up on the idea that there could be peace in the short term. So what can you do right now to make things a little bit better?

Speaker 2 You can improve the economic life for people, for Palestinians living in the West Bank, and you can try and shrink the conflict, meaning no settlement expansion.

Speaker 2 And I would say pull out of some of these Jewish settlements that are like, you know, far-flung and that the Israeli army is sort of protecting for no reason.

Speaker 2 But I think that's the best case scenario for right now. For right now.

Speaker 2 And there's a book, I think it's called Catch 67 by Mika Goodman that I would recommend to people that's about how to shrink the conflict and that for now being the best case scenario.

Speaker 2 But again, it's like, why does, you have to ask yourself, like, why does everyone in the world obsessed about this particular conflict?

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 2 There's a weird obsession with it.

Speaker 6 Why do you think that is?

Speaker 2 I think it's inescapable that part of it is an obsession with the Jews.

Speaker 2 Like, there are 500,000 Palestinians living in Lebanon, most of whom live in refugee camps and by official Lebanese law are barred from being lawyers, from being doctors, from being accountants.

Speaker 2 It's a horrible situation. Do you think most people in the world know about the situation of the Palestinian immigration in Lebanon? They don't even know Palestinians are in Lebanon or in Jordan.

Speaker 2 They have no idea. The The reason is because, you know, it's like Palestinian lives matter when the people that are hurting them are Jews.

Speaker 2 They don't seem to matter when the people that are hurting them are other Arabs.

Speaker 4 So first of all, credit to her for bringing up the settlements, the settlements that were on the Israeli settlements on stolen Palestinian land. She's right to bring those up.

Speaker 4 She says that some of them should be withdrawn.

Speaker 4 I'd go further than that and say any settlement that was on stolen land should be withdrawn, but at least credit for her to bring that up at this point in the interview.

Speaker 4 It could be quite easy for her to not do that.

Speaker 4 But then she goes on to say that there are all these 500,000 Palestinians living in Lebanon, most of whom live in refugee camps and how hard it is for them in those refugee camps.

Speaker 4 And why don't people know about the mistreatment of Palestinians in the refugee camps? Which does introduce the question, why are they in refugee camps? Why are Palestinians refugees currently?

Speaker 4 What are they seeking refuge from? Where would they be if they weren't refugees?

Speaker 4 These are the questions that she doesn't want to be addressing at this point.

Speaker 4 And, you know, she's saying that they're barred from these different things. She's saying if they're refugees, I mean, I think Joe would support the idea that refugees have fewer rights or fewer,

Speaker 4 are able to do fewer things than citizens, because he talks about that a lot, about people who are

Speaker 4 migrants, illegal immigrants coming into America. They shouldn't have the same rights as Americans.
That's kind of what she's describing there of these people in refugee camps.

Speaker 4 So I think she's barking at the wrong tree when she's trying to get Joe to talk about the immiseration of refugees, I'd say.

Speaker 5 There's another piece, too, where she says, why are people so interested in what's happening to Palestinians? Why are they so interested in how the Jews are treating Palestinians?

Speaker 5 And I think one of the things that we saw very recently in the last couple of years is people are upset that American dollars are funding weapons that Israel uses against them.

Speaker 5 So our support of Israel, very specifically our military support of Israel, goes on. We are one Kevin Bacon away from hurting Palestinians.

Speaker 5 So, what we need to do is be careful about who we give aid to. And maybe when we give aid, have some sort of stipulation on that aid that makes them understand that they can't use it.

Speaker 5 Or if we're selling weapons to a certain group of people, we need to say, hey, I don't want to sell you this gun if you're going to go hurt somebody with it that I don't think should be hurt with it, et cetera.

Speaker 5 So, when people insert themselves into that conversation, sometimes it's around the aid and the ability to get to sell weapons to people who are using them in ways that people in our country very much disagree with.

Speaker 5 Okay, so this is the last clip in our main event section. This is comparing Israel to other countries.

Speaker 2 Well, it's just, it's like if you

Speaker 2 think about if there was a movement in the world that suggested that, you know, the Japanese weren't a real people and Japan does not have a right to exist. Like, think about how crazy that sounds.

Speaker 6 Right.

Speaker 2 But that's a normal thing that a lot of people believe. A lot of people that you and I know.

Speaker 4 So I can see again what she's saying.

Speaker 4 I'm not sure this is as reasonable a comparison because what she's doing is she's conflating the Jewish people as a race and as an ethnicity with Israel, the state.

Speaker 4 Not all Jewish people are Israeli. Not all of them are supporters of Israel.

Speaker 4 So by conflating Jewish people as a race, as an ethnicity, as a culture with the particular state, I think, and whether the state has a right to exist, what she's doing in some ways is the very conflation of Jewishness and Israel that would be called out as anti-Semitic if it came from somebody else.

Speaker 4 And I think that is worth pointing out here.

Speaker 5 All right, we're going to take a short break and then we're going to move on to our undercard.

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Speaker 4 High key. Looking for your next obsession? Listen to High Key, a bold, joyful, unfiltered culture podcast coming at you every Friday.

Speaker 4 Now, my question is, in this game of mafia that we're going to play, are you going to do better than me? Say it now.

Speaker 4 Duh. Period.
I'm going to eat. You're going to do better than me? I'm going to eat.
Yes. I literally will.
Ryan will. I cannot wait till we both team up and get you out.

Speaker 4 And then one of us gets the other out because we didn't realize they were a traitor the whole time and you were actually an innocent. Y'all won't even know that I'm a trainer.

Speaker 6 This is going to be delicious.

Speaker 4 Well, thank you for coming to our show.

Speaker 4 And on that note, thank you for coming to my show.

Speaker 4 Listen to High Key on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 6 And the undercards banging. The undercard's filled with fights.

Speaker 5 So for the undercard this time, we're going to be talking about social media, woke politics, cancel culture, and trying to be on, keep both sides equal distance from you as you work your way down this path, because that's what she does with her centrism.

Speaker 5 And that's what Joe does very often with his centrism.

Speaker 5 That's why you often hear Joe say things like, I'm not of a political party, what makes him very easy so he can criticize both parties, even though he definitely criticizes one party more than others.

Speaker 5 Yeah, yeah. All right.
So, uh, so we're going to start our undercard with opposition to Trump.

Speaker 6 So look,

Speaker 6 we were talking so well before the podcast rolled out that I just wanted to just start it. You know, we don't we don't have to talk about presidential candidates.
We don't have to talk about all that.

Speaker 6 But we're in a weird time. You know, and to speak to what we were talking about before, we're just talking about how people are so strange.
There's so much.

Speaker 6 So many people, there's just a big disconnect between what people actually think and what they actually say.

Speaker 6 And I think this is in my life, this is the first time that I've ever really experienced this at this level. There's a hysteria because people are being punished for their real beliefs.

Speaker 6 Instead of having the ability to express themselves and have other people disagree and have some sort of rational discussion,

Speaker 6 this is a strange time where you have to toe the status quo. You have to toe the line.
And I've been trying to figure out what it is, but I think a big part of it is the opposition to Trump.

Speaker 6 I think people's opposition to Trump is so strong that people have lost their minds.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it seems like the people that oppose him, they just want complete and total compliance with opposition, with this different way of thinking.

Speaker 2 Does that make sense? Yeah, it's like the stakes are so high that everyone needs to be on side and an active part of the resistance.

Speaker 2 And if you deviate in any way, it shows that you're a squish or that you're actually loyal to the other side.

Speaker 2 And in fact, what that side of things is doing is that they're limiting the spectrum of what's allowed to say so, so, so narrowly that that people I think are becoming kind of secretly radicalized because in the other way.

Speaker 6 Yes.

Speaker 2 And honestly, like you're great, but I think one of the reasons you're so unbelievably popular is because you just say what you think and you bring other people on here to say what they think.

Speaker 2 And the number of places where that actually happens is unbelievably small and getting smaller.

Speaker 5 What this sounds like to me is famous people in 2020, early 2020, still trying to wrestle with the fact that they get a lot more feedback than they used to. And sometimes it isn't great.

Speaker 5 Sometimes that feedback isn't super great. And they're still trying to wrestle with that.
I also want to bring up when she's talking about

Speaker 5 and her and Joe are both saying, like, have we lost our mind? We lost our minds with Trump. And it's like, hey, man, how is that comment looking today?

Speaker 5 How does that comment look today when we look back on those moments back when, you know, in 2020? How are we looking at it now?

Speaker 5 And I think, you know, time has shown that we haven't really lost our minds when it came to that stuff. We were just calling it out well before it became a real, real, real problem.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And she's talking here about people being radicalized by the reaction if anyone deviates from what you're allowed to think.

Speaker 4 And I actually think that that might be prescient because she herself has gone from, at this point, being a never-Trump centrist to now being part of his attempt to reshape and control the media.

Speaker 4 She's now in charge of CBS, despite having no real qualifications or experience for the role of such a large role at a major media organization.

Speaker 4 And she can't claim to be neutral and centrist on this because she was very much teen Trump by the election.

Speaker 4 And like the Guardian reported that after Trump's victory, the free press, which is the media organization that she started, co-hosted an inauguration party with Elon Musk's ex and Uber, attended by former British Prime Minister Liz Truss and the Google co-founder Sergi Brin and Mehmet Oz.

Speaker 4 So she founded, sorry, she hosted an inauguration party for Trump.

Speaker 5 Insane. I, you know, the other thing, too, that I think is going to come up time and time again in this is they're sort of constantly saying,

Speaker 5 you know, man, people just can't just come together and just have these conversations. You know, we have one side has one opinion, one side has another opinion, and they just never can meet.

Speaker 5 And I wonder if it's just a problem with how we discuss things, et cetera, et cetera. And I think one of the things that they consistently miss is the framing of those discussions.

Speaker 5 Oftentimes it's taking fundamental rights away from people that make them have, that's why it has such a high stake.

Speaker 5 That's why these conversations have a high stake is because you're trying to take these fundamental rights away. You know, just ask yourself,

Speaker 5 is it that more people are more sensitive or that we've started to go more and more after the fundamental rights that people have? That's the question you need to ask.

Speaker 5 And oftentimes, if you stop to think about it, it's that we're digging into these fundamental rights and trying to steal steal these rights away from people rather than, you know, oh, we just can't have these conversations.

Speaker 5 No, one side is very much saying we can't take fundamental rights away from people. And that's not a conversation that I think like is

Speaker 5 constructive to have. We should just all agree everybody degree has fundamental rights.
Then we could go back to talking about, you know, our specific foreign policy or our tax policy or whatever.

Speaker 5 But when we're talking about, you know, should transgender people be able to use the bathroom, I feel like those are real simple things that we should just be like, no, I have a hard line stance on that.

Speaker 5 Thanks.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I agree. And the obvious elephant in the room here is that she recognizes that and she will talk about at length when it's her ethnicity that she feels is under a tight.

Speaker 4 When a conversation is about Jewish people, her stakes are so high to the point where she will literally advocate for vigilantism at the end of this interview.

Speaker 4 We're going to cover it in the gloves off section. But when it's the rights of groups that she's not part of, that's wokeism gone too far.
It's losing its mind. It's the intersectional caste system.

Speaker 4 Like I said, we've got that clip of the founding fathers that illustrates that really well, that they were great because they give equality to Jewish people.

Speaker 4 And okay, they had faults like slavery, but they were great because of their equality for Jewish people.

Speaker 5 Yeah. There's also this part too that just sort of jumped out at me when I was listening to it here.
Cho says there's a big disconnect between what people actually think and what they actually say.

Speaker 5 And it's like, hey, dude, how would you know what they actually think versus what they how would you know that? What you're saying is, is that people can't be as racist as they used to be.

Speaker 5 That's what you're saying.

Speaker 5 Now they're going to talk about a binary society.

Speaker 2 It seems like you can only choose one of those two sides.

Speaker 6 Yes, a binary society as opposed to a nuanced one. That's what's weird about today.

Speaker 6 It's like we're dealing with the same amount of intelligent people, but they seem to be shackled in their ability to express themselves honestly.

Speaker 2 And so what are they scared of, right?

Speaker 6 Repercussions.

Speaker 2 Right, because those are real, right? You look at someone.

Speaker 2 I think that one thing that's overlooked in this, when we talk about cancel culture, right, and the social ostracism and the actual firings that can happen when you break with one another orthodoxy is that the people who are inoculated from it are people that are already extremely successful and can take the risk.

Speaker 2 It's why Ricky Gervais can be Ricky Gervais. It's why J.K.
Rowling can tweet what she tweeted a few months ago and survive it because they've already accumulated enough capital.

Speaker 2 The people that I hear from that are completely screwed by it are people like artists and poets and untenured professors who aren't famous and no one knows about and are having to go with a begging bowl on Patreon or Venmo or whatever to get support after they've made a bad joke or whatever it is.

Speaker 6 Yes, yes.

Speaker 6 That is exactly what's happening. Yeah.
It's,

Speaker 6 I mean,

Speaker 6 I'm sure that this is because of social media. I'm sure this is

Speaker 6 the repercussions of having this new form of communication that people don't wield responsibly.

Speaker 6 That these attacks on people, you do them much more flippantly than you would if you were across from someone.

Speaker 2 Of course, because

Speaker 2 there's so little

Speaker 2 shame on the internet because people are disinhibited. It's like people say things to me on the internet that are, I wouldn't even mention them here.
I mean, they're so vile.

Speaker 2 They're disgusting. And yet I've seen some of these people in real life, and they would never even have the courage to approach me on the street.

Speaker 6 They're not real expressions.

Speaker 6 When they're doing that, they're just, they're button pushing. They're throwing rocks at glass.
And this is a good jump-off point for your book on anti-Semitism.

Speaker 5 They start out this conversation talking about binary. They say, you know, we live in a binary society as opposed to a nuanced one.

Speaker 5 And it's like, yeah, you live in a binary society that's trying to take fundamental rights away from people. There's no nuance in saying whether or not someone should have fundamental rights.

Speaker 5 We can't give them partial rights and then expect that that conversation should be civil. That's not how this works.
We can have that nuanced conversation about tax policy.

Speaker 5 That's perfectly fine, but let's not do that when it comes to people's fundamental rights. And I do actually agree that there are some real problems with social media.

Speaker 5 Social media can be really punishing and can have some detrimental effects on people that might not deserve that kind of scrutiny. There's a great book out there.

Speaker 5 If you haven't read it, It's called So You've Been Publicly Shamed. It's by John Ronson.
It's an excellent book.

Speaker 5 And it talks a lot about how difficult some people have it when they're not famous and then they get piled on by social media and they really attack and destroy their lives.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I agree. It's something I'm not comfortable with.
I think social media has been hugely detrimental to society in lots of ways. And that's one of the ways.

Speaker 4 That said, I would have liked it to bring up some examples of the artists and the poets and the professors that she feels felt the wrath of social media because of a bad joke that they made.

Speaker 4 Because we also know that a lot of the stories that get circulated as examples of that are often deliberately distorted to

Speaker 4 Graham Linehan, we covered it recently. He said he was arrested just after Joe Rorgan's show.
He was arrested when he arrived in the UK.

Speaker 4 And he said the reporting was that he was arrested for making some jokes about trans people on Twitter.

Speaker 4 And it's pretty clear from what we saw in the show, that isn't the extent of his activism against trans people. So it's probably not just that he said a couple of jokes on Twitter.

Speaker 4 It's the fact he was going back to a court case and was tweeting about things in the middle of a harassment court case.

Speaker 4 We also saw another example of it just recently, the leaked group chat messages from the Young Republicans group, where they joked about wanting to gas people and celebrated rape and even said, I love Hitler.

Speaker 4 JD Vance wrote it off as young boys doing stupid things, despite the fact that the people sent the message, some of them were 35, which is not a young boy. But that it it was just a joke.

Speaker 4 It's just an edgy joke. That defense is so often used

Speaker 4 as cover for people to

Speaker 4 give the views that they actually hold in a way that they can have plausible deniability.

Speaker 4 And I think both of those people on this show right now know that they know that that's a thing that happens when the joke is about something they don't like.

Speaker 5 Yeah, there's a really interesting thing that happens to whenever Joe talks about social media, especially when he's talking about it sort of as a medium to communicate, because, you know, this is pretty much where he gets his news from.

Speaker 5 We've seen him literally read tweets as if it were news or gospel. It's, it's, it's crazy.

Speaker 5 So, on the one hand, he realizes that things can be massively distorted on Twitter, like in this conversation, but somehow misses that, he somehow misses that when he just reads verbatim the tweet out to his audience.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 All right. Uh, now they're going to be talking about uh reasonable discussions and the stasi.

Speaker 6 I mean, when we talk

Speaker 6 and people listen to reasonable discussion, then they feel more emboldened to have reasonable discussion of their own.

Speaker 6 Maybe perhaps in private, maybe have to fucking put tinfoil over the windows and bolt the door shut and make sure that they can talk honestly.

Speaker 2 That's insane. Yeah, it is insane.
Like we're living in the freest society in human history and people are acting like the Stasi is looking over their shoulder.

Speaker 6 Yes, because it is. The social media Stasi.
It is. Yeah.
Yeah, that's true. Stay off social media, folks.
No, for real.

Speaker 6 Look, if I wasn't promoting comedy shows and podcasts and the like, I don't think I'd be on it. I would definitely be off of it.
I mean, I'm on it now, but I'm on it like a post-it and leave-it thing.

Speaker 6 I don't pay attention to that. You use the luxury of that.
Yes.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean? Yeah. I don't know.

Speaker 2 I think about like, what would it look like if all the journalists at the Washington Post, the New York Times, and the Wall Street Journal were banned from being on Twitter?

Speaker 2 No, for real. Because like what happens, right, is like it's this circular thing where we all know the landmines, right? Like the things we don't want to touch, like the hills we don't want to die on.

Speaker 2 And it's what's scary about the Stasi-like atmosphere of it is like my job is to write opinion columns and commission other people to do that.

Speaker 2 And yet I feel the self-censoring even before I've written, right? Where I'm like, wait, I don't want to die on that hill. I don't want to die on that.
Is that really the battle I want to take on?

Speaker 2 I should probably just stick to this topic instead of that topic because I know if I do that topic, like I know what awaits me. Yes.
Like, why am I, why would I willingly go to the guillotine?

Speaker 6 Yes.

Speaker 2 You know, it's like, and people pretend like the reputational smears have no cost. Like, they're insane.

Speaker 5 Interesting framing here where she's talking about Stasi, which is short for a word I cannot pronounce in German, and I'm not even going to try.

Speaker 4 Is it Staatsikerite, I think?

Speaker 5 So is this East German secret police during the Soviet occupation? So ask yourself this question. Is there a difference between someone surveilling you and then going after you for the things you say?

Speaker 5 Or if you're putting your thoughts out in the world and sometimes hitting the hard edges of someone who disagrees, think if there's a difference between those two things, because I think there's a strong difference between those two things.

Speaker 5 What it feels like to me is there's a lot less barriers to communicate with famous people. And I think that these people and, you know, in the 90s, you'd got a letter.

Speaker 5 In the 90s to the 2010s or so, you might have got somebody to send you an email. Sure, there was some social media around before then, but not as ubiquitous as it was later on.

Speaker 5 But now, especially from now until when this podcast was recorded, it's very easy to take a few seconds out of your day to tweet at somebody and comment on their tweet and make a comment.

Speaker 5 And these people, I think, they read the feedback, they dwell on it. It makes them upset that someone disagrees or might disagree in a very flippant way.
And that upsets them.

Speaker 5 And I think that that's something that that

Speaker 5 they need to contend with, right? Because I think Joe totally reads all the comments. He says he doesn't, but I think he does.

Speaker 5 And you can tell by the way his show sometimes moves that he totally reads the comments, even though he says time and time again, he denies that he does that.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think that's true.

Speaker 4 I also kind of love that her position as a free speech champion who'd go on to found the free press. Her position is to ban journalists from Twitter, which is a fantastic idea of hers.

Speaker 4 I mean, I actually agree that journalists shouldn't be as much on Twitter.

Speaker 4 Not so much because of the ethical issues with the platform itself, but because journalists being so on Twitter has always amplified the importance of Twitter.

Speaker 4 You know, newspapers report on things that happen on Twitter because so many of their journalists are on Twitter to see it. And they see the drama and the repercussions of that drama.

Speaker 4 And then they report it because it seems big to them because they're on Twitter. It always skews the media conversation on what's happening on Twitter.

Speaker 4 But honestly, I'd love to know what topics she wanted to write about but felt censored by the guillotine for, especially when she has raised um two examples of people who are uncanceable.

Speaker 4 That she's raised Ricky Gervais and JK Rowling. So, I think we know what topics she wants to be writing about, but feels that she can't.

Speaker 4 And she would go on to write about those topics for the free press, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 Um, so this next one here is about radicalization

Speaker 6 when you think about these social media sites. Um, Gab was one where this guy who shot up the tree of life was a member of.
And

Speaker 6 is this

Speaker 6 like I'm not a I'm clearly not a proponent of censorship, but do people do you think they get radicalized in these when you get to a forum where there's no restrictions whatsoever on language or ideology or behavior, you can say whatever you want as long as it's long as you're not saying something.

Speaker 6 I mean, Gab has rules like you can't do things that are illegal. You can't threaten someone.
You can't put up their address.

Speaker 6 But you could say a lot of really fucked up shit and

Speaker 6 they're not going to police you. Do you think that these places that do allow free speech, that there's a catch-22 to it? In some ways, it's great.

Speaker 6 to be able to express yourself freely, but in other ways, you can get radicalized and

Speaker 6 it can lead to a lot of people forming these groups where they support each other in these fucked up ideas.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'll say two things.

Speaker 2 One of the reasons that I feel so strongly about keeping the spectrum of acceptable opinion so, like, as wide as possible is because I think that the narrower it shrinks, like we're talking about normal ideas being closeted, then people go into these underground lairs online and they become radicalized, right?

Speaker 2 Because they're like,

Speaker 2 you know, the elites or the mainstream media or whoever, they're not telling the truth, they're lying to me. So there's this secret world.

Speaker 2 And this secret world has all of these actually bigoted ideas. Do you know what I mean? Yes.
So do I think that it is a catch-22?

Speaker 2 Yes. I mean, the whole thing about the world we're living in is that you no longer have to like find a KKK meeting.
You don't have to find a jihadist preacher.

Speaker 2 You don't have to find, you know, go down the line. You just have to find a Reddit chat.
or a 4chan chat or something on gab.com and you find your little online village.

Speaker 2 like it no longer requires a real person or real interaction.

Speaker 2 And there's no stakes because there's no shame because you can just be totally anonymous in these forums.

Speaker 2 So I just like, I think that social media is supercharging this in a way that like we can't even grasp. And it's very hard for those of us like me and you who want to protect free speech and liberty.

Speaker 2 to think about how to deal with it.

Speaker 5 Moderation. The thing is, is like in the past, moderation was done on the front end, right?

Speaker 5 So editors and other people, they would look at what was going to go out there and they decide what to put in papers and on TV. Now we have to decide that for ourselves.

Speaker 5 And not everyone's opinion is worthwhile. So some people are just really shitty and we should be making sure that their voice is not broadcast.

Speaker 5 The problem with the marketplaces of ideas is that it makes the presumption that everything in the marketplace has value. It does not have value.
Some of it just doesn't have value.

Speaker 5 Some stuff that denies other people's humanity isn't worth anything.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I completely agree. And I disagree with her.
I really disagree with her here.

Speaker 4 She's saying that the more that you shrink what's acceptable to talk about publicly, the more people are going to seek the extremist fringes. And I don't think that's the case.

Speaker 4 And I don't think anyone familiar with the concept of radicalization would support that view either.

Speaker 4 I think she's completely overlooking the effects of normalization. Yes.

Speaker 4 The more the ovant window shifts so that, for example, anti-Semitic speech is accepted and normalized and is appearing in the YouTube comments beneath this very beneath that very shore.

Speaker 4 The more that that's happening,

Speaker 4 the more that you're going to send the message that anti-Semitic ideas are just part of the day-to-day discourse. These are just the ideas that we throw around.
These are entirely acceptable.

Speaker 4 And the more people are going to believe in those ideas because they're encountering them so often. It's how dehumanizing language works.
It's always been the case.

Speaker 4 And honestly, I'm really surprised that someone who's just written a book on how to fight anti-Semitism is making the case that it's better to keep the spectrum of acceptable ideas and opinions as wide as possible.

Speaker 4 But again,

Speaker 4 I think if Jaw had asked at this point, does that spectrum include tropes about Jewish people? I think she'd have been pretty quick to say no. I really do.

Speaker 4 But if he'd asked, for example, whether it's acceptable to say, debate the IQ differences between black and white people, would that have been one of the opinions that she wouldn't want to be kept as acceptable in conversation or not?

Speaker 4 I don't know. I honestly don't know.
And I wish Joe, as an, as a conversationalist, as an interviewer, could have asked questions like that because we'd have got to some interesting answers, I think.

Speaker 4 But then after that, the very next breath, she says, social media is supercharging our access to anonymous material that you used to have to go to a KKK meeting to hear.

Speaker 4 which is, as you say, the argument for moderation. So she's also making a moderation argument at this point.
And she's got cognitive distance about it.

Speaker 4 And I think it's because she either isn't acknowledging or isn't necessarily aware of the effect of normalizing extremist speech.

Speaker 4 So she wants to pretend that she and Joe and the people on her side alone care about free speech and liberty and that anybody who wants moderation is against those things. Yeah.

Speaker 4 While then acknowledging social media and anonymity is sending people into dangerous places and there's nothing we can do about it. There absolutely is.

Speaker 5 Okay, this next clip is about shit posting, murder, and free speech.

Speaker 6 You're right. How do you deal with that? Like, when you have someone like the Christchurch shooter who was live streaming this

Speaker 6 and making references to, you know, what, what did, what do you think?

Speaker 2 I think he referenced the tree of life.

Speaker 6 I don't remember. Reference PewDiePie as well? Like, yeah.
I mean, he was like.

Speaker 2 It's like all in elaborate trolls.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 6 That's what's crazy. It's like he's shit posting and murdering at the same time.
Yeah. And what is the, I mean, there's no, in my eyes, there's no clear solution to that.

Speaker 6 I don't want to restrict free speech. I certainly don't want

Speaker 6 to.

Speaker 2 But you also don't want someone to be free to live stream killing people on a platform.

Speaker 6 Right, but how could you, I mean,

Speaker 6 they're managing at scale. How could you possibly know when someone's live streaming that they're about to go and kill people, right? When the guy's never killed anybody before.

Speaker 6 And then all of a sudden, he's got this camera on and he walks in the synagogue and he starts shooting people.

Speaker 2 No, it's a a, I thought it was a mosque with him.

Speaker 6 It was a mosque. Oh, that's right.
It was a mosque with him.

Speaker 2 It was two mosques. He killed like 52 people.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I mean, it's all insane. What, how do you, how do we manage that? I mean, what, what do we do? What do we do?

Speaker 6 And that sort of thing, I mean, there's no, in my mind, there's no clear answer here.

Speaker 2 Aaron Powell, there's not a clear answer, but I think that, look, the idea that a private company should be obligated to stream someone, killing someone, or let's even go like take it less stakes than that, call Jews kikes.

Speaker 2 Why should a private company say yes to that? It's degrading what the platform is.

Speaker 6 Right. Yeah, that makes sense.
That makes sense.

Speaker 4 I just want to point out this conversation was happening in January 2020. They're talking about the elaborate trolling in murder manifestos.
Nothing has changed. We're seeing exactly the same thing.

Speaker 5 Right, it's the same thing.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 5 You know, they talk about this as if this is some untouchable product, right? Like, oh, how do we, I don't even know. How do we fix this? How do we fix this?

Speaker 5 Look, if I made a car that sometimes shot up churches, would you hand wave that away? These people are making so much money off our data and ads.

Speaker 5 They can afford to add something to their system to make it more safe.

Speaker 4 Yeah, absolutely. And if they can't, they don't have a viable business in the first place.
It's only the fact that we're turning a blind eye is keeping their business alive.

Speaker 5 Yeah, because we let them off the hook with conversations like these because we always frame it around free speech rather than corporate responsibility.

Speaker 4 Yeah, exactly. And in fairness to her, she, Barry Weiss here does point that out.
Why should a private company say yes to doing that? It's degrading what the platform is. I completely agree.

Speaker 4 At this point, what's happening is big tech wants all the profit, wants all the power, but wants none of the accountability that comes to this.

Speaker 4 If you want to build a machine that has the ability to broadcast live murder to millions of people or to radicalize others into following suit, that's now your responsibility.

Speaker 4 And if you can't prevent those things happening, your business isn't viable. There should be fines levied against your business

Speaker 4 until you can correct and prevent that. And if you can't correct and prevent it, you didn't have a business in the first place.

Speaker 5 Okay, next they're going to talk about, this is about immigration and Megan Murphy.

Speaker 6 The question is, where does that line get drawn? I know. You know, this is...
This is the real problem.

Speaker 6 I mean, there's people that get kicked off of certain social media sites for just not representing woke culture. Like, for instance,

Speaker 6 Megan Markle.

Speaker 6 what is her name? Megan Murphy? Megan Murphy. Megan Murphy, that woman who got kicked off of Twitter because she said a man is never a woman.
And she got kicked off for life. Totally.

Speaker 2 But this is what I mean about when reasonable opinions,

Speaker 2 when the spectrum of what is reasonable becomes so narrow, people radicalize and they go to these bigoted ideas.

Speaker 2 And it's an enormous like, it's like, why do we need a healthy conversation about immigration? And like in the conversation about immigration is, I think, very, very limited in what people say and

Speaker 2 what is acceptable. Like it's like open borders or xenophobia.
Right. You know, and there has to be kind of reasonable middle and way to talk about it.
Because if not, people self-radicalize.

Speaker 2 That's just, I just see that happening again and again and again on so many different topics.

Speaker 6 Yeah, the immigration angle is a perfect example of that. I mean, it should be absolutely possible for hardworking people to make it to America and do better.

Speaker 6 It It also should be possible for us to keep gang members and cartel members from crossing the border freely and shooting people and killing people and selling drugs in our communities and all the things that we're scared of when it comes to the open border policy idea.

Speaker 4 So, first of all, it sounds like Joe's issue is, what if they stop people saying hate speech I disagree with? They might stop someone saying hate speech I agree with. And that is bad.

Speaker 4 And I don't follow that kind of logic personally.

Speaker 4 Private companies have the space to set the line where they want and where they currently set the line is where it's most profitable for them yeah and they will only move the line from that place if it becomes less profitable to put this kind of speech out or if there is regulation that makes it difficult for them to keep the line there that's why it needs to be um it needs to be regulated you know the balance can be shifted if we make hate speech less profitable The market is smart enough to find its own tolerance point if we don't restrict people's ability to express dissatisfaction with speech they dislike.

Speaker 4 But that's what Joe's against here. It's cancel culture.
It's terrible at this point. Yeah.
Yeah. Right.

Speaker 4 Barry Weiss is also, what she's doing at the end there is a straw man into a middle ground fallacy because she's making it seem like people only allow a binary position on immigration. Like all right.

Speaker 4 That's not true. They don't do that.
But therefore, she is unique in being a sensible middle ground, which she isn't, neither unique nor sensible.

Speaker 5 Yeah, and they're both strawmanning the left's ideas about immigration by saying that the that they're open border.

Speaker 5 You know, the Overton window has shifted so much that a majority of people think that we had an open border during Biden's presidency.

Speaker 5 We most certainly did not have an open border during Biden's presidency. We didn't have one during Obama's presidency.

Speaker 5 Those people like to say that sort of thing because they know it inflames people and they know that it may

Speaker 5 in which to tune up a certain side, but it's not true. And it's something that they keep on passing off as if it's a valid, it's something valid that's being said on their side.

Speaker 6 Let's wrap it up with that.

Speaker 6 Thank you, sir. Appreciate you very much.
You're a beautiful person.

Speaker 5 All right, Marsh, here we are. End of the show.

Speaker 5 I'm going to go first this time. Okay.

Speaker 5 Sometimes I ask you a question today. I'm going to ask myself this question, Cecil, was there anything good?

Speaker 5 And I'm going to say, look, anti-Semitism is very dangerous. It's a gateway drug to hating a lot of other people.
I will never deny that.

Speaker 5 And in some places, she makes some really great points about how difficult the Jews have it and how perfect they have to be to be accepted.

Speaker 5 And I commend her for her ability to explain to non-Jewish people how difficult some of that struggle can be. So I will absolutely, there's some really great points in this.

Speaker 5 And I learned a little bit of stuff about what it's like to be a Jew and have people constantly attack you with anti-Semitism. So kudos to her for making it understandable.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I'll agree there. And obviously you said at the start that anti-Semitism is a gateway drug to hitting a lot of people.
Even if it wasn't, it would still be a terrible thing. I know you think so.

Speaker 4 Absolutely. I know you wouldn't agree that's what you're saying.
Yeah. Like it's, I completely agree there.

Speaker 4 Also, there's a point that they talk about vaccines, which we will cover in their gloves, in the gloves off segment. And it's good.
It's actually pretty good. They both talk about being pro-vaccines.

Speaker 4 They're both against religious exemptions to vaccines. Joe even says vaccines can stop a global pandemic.
And he says that in January 2020.

Speaker 5 Gosh, what five months will do to a person, man?

Speaker 4 Woof. He's part of that.
Yeah. Woof.

Speaker 4 Okay, well, that is it for the show this week.

Speaker 4 Remember that you can access more than half an hour of bonus content every single week from as little as $1 per episode, or like 70 pence, I think, something like that, per episode, depending on how you want to pay.

Speaker 4 You can do that by subscribing at patreon.com forward slash no rogan. Meanwhile, you can hear more from Cecil at cognitive dissonance and citation Needed.

Speaker 4 And you can hear more from me at Skeptics with a K and the Skeptic podcast. And so we'll be back next week for a little more of the No Rogan experience.

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