#0045 - Elon Musk, Pt. 2

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Speaker 4 On this episode, we cover the Joe Rogan Experience 2404 with guest Elon Musk.

Speaker 4 Again, the No Rogan Experience starts now.

Speaker 4 Welcome back to the show. This is a show where two podcasters now with 129 hours of Rogan experience get to know Joe Rogan.

Speaker 4 It's a show for those who are curious about Joe Rogan, his guests, and their claims as well, or anyone who wants to understand Joe's ever-growing media influence. I'm Cecil Cicero.

Speaker 4 I'm joined by Michael Marshall, and today we're going to be covering more of Joe's October 31st interview with Elon Musk because they said so much untrue stuff we couldn't fit it in a single episode.

Speaker 4 So, Marsh, what are we going to talk about today?

Speaker 4 Yeah, you're absolutely right. There was so much in this.
So, today we're going to focus on immigration as our main event. And then inevitably, we've got an undercard, which is anti-trans rhetoric.

Speaker 4 But there is some stuff in there that we haven't heard before. Okay.
All right. Well, before we get to our main event, we want to say thanks to our Area 51 all access patch past patrons.

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Speaker 4 But for now, our main event:

Speaker 4 It's time.

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Speaker 4 Okay, so this obviously is going to be a lot about immigration. There's a ton of clips we've got to get to.
They spend a ton of time talking about immigration.

Speaker 4 We even used some clips last time that they talked about immigration, but there's a whole scheme that they want to uncover.

Speaker 4 And we're going to start talking about Hillary and Obama and their stances on immigration.

Speaker 2 But what's so crazy is like it's very easy to demonstrate just from like Hillary's speeches from 2008 and Obama's speeches, like when they were talking about immigration, like they were as far right as Steve Bannon when it comes to immigration.

Speaker 2 Yes, um, Hillary was like very MAGA.

Speaker 2 I'm sure you've seen that campaign speech, which he was talking about if anybody's committed a crime, get rid of them. And if you're here, you pay a hefty fine and you have to wait in line.

Speaker 6 It was really crazy.

Speaker 2 It's crazy to listen to because it's like it's as MAGA as, you know, as Marjorie Taylor Greene.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I mean, have you seen these videos people post online where they'll take like a speech from Obama or Hillary?

Speaker 6 and they'll interview people on like college campus or something and say, what do you think of the speech by Trump? And they're like, oh, I hate it. He's a racist bigot.
I'm like, just kidding.

Speaker 6 that was Obama.

Speaker 6 No, actually, that was Obama or Hillary.

Speaker 6 To your point, like, literally,

Speaker 6 the

Speaker 2 center's been moved so far.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 6 The left is so. The left has gone so far left that

Speaker 6 they need, you know, they can't even see the center with a telescope.

Speaker 6 Okay.

Speaker 4 Just want to point out that Obama and Hillary's positions on immigration were essentially the

Speaker 4 immigration policy we've we've had for a very long time. They just believe the Republican hype that the Democrats were open borders.
That's not true.

Speaker 4 Obama and Biden deported people at record numbers more than other Republican administrations had deported people because they have to appear and have to constantly be vigilant to appear tough on immigration because the center in this country is tough on immigration.

Speaker 4 So in order to capture the center, they have to do those types of things. We've always had this policy.
And just that little clip at the end, that little piece at the end where he says, oh, you know,

Speaker 4 if you take

Speaker 4 a speech by Trump and then you say it was, and, and, and say it was Obama, people will immediately hate it.

Speaker 4 I've seen the exact same thing happen where people say, what do you think about this thing that Biden said? And then someone will be like, oh, I hate it.

Speaker 4 And then they'll say, oh, by the way, Trump said it. And they'll be like, oh, you're a misinformation machine, et cetera, et cetera.
So I've seen that happen all the time.

Speaker 4 It just happens with people who are uninformed. That's all.

Speaker 4 We've seen that on Joe Rogan. We've seen a clip where Joe Rogan thought Biden said a crazy thing and then he realized Biden was repeating something that Trump had said.

Speaker 4 He was recounting something that Trump had said. Absolutely right.
Yeah, and he suddenly changed it. But yeah, you're right.
I mean, basically...

Speaker 4 Anything other than a hardline approach on immigration would get slaughtered by the right wing of the American political sphere.

Speaker 4 So centrist politicians will take a right-of-center immigration policy to shore up vulnerabilities to attack the right.

Speaker 4 That's not to say that Hillary Clinton might not have also had particularly anti-immigration views.

Speaker 4 But even if you were a left-wing candidate to try and get elected you would be pandering to a part of the country that wants an extreme uh immigration policy but hillary clinton wasn't as extreme as steve bannon and wasn't as extreme as marjorie taylor greene that's obviously ridiculous it shows that that uh joe hasn't spent a lot of time genuinely listening to any of those people that he's just named and once again as we see with elon multiple times through both these shows Elon is illustrating that he gets his information from videos he saw online.

Speaker 4 He's talking about these gotcha videos. And those gotcha videos are designed to skew and distort deliberately.
It worked on him. Like if somebody with those gotcha videos, that's not like a one take.

Speaker 4 I've gone to the first person I found and recorded the first thing they said.

Speaker 4 There's a lot of recording goes on and they pick the thing that looks, that makes the people they're talking to look the stupidest because they're designed as a propagandist tool.

Speaker 4 And it's a tool that works on Elon. Yeah.
And

Speaker 4 you know, to touch on a piece that you mentioned, where you mentioned the differences between sort of, you know, what, what maybe the Trump administration thinks and what Hillary thinks.

Speaker 4 We can very much see the difference in the enforcement of those immigration things.

Speaker 4 You can very much see in the difference in how they are treating people who are in the system versus what is happening now. At least in the system with Biden and

Speaker 4 with Obama, there was an opportunity for somebody to get asylum and we weren't kidnapping them outside of their immigration

Speaker 4 judge

Speaker 4 court date. So

Speaker 4 there's a very big difference between what is happening. So now America is not alone in its problems with immigration and its problems with censorship.

Speaker 4 And so we're going to talk a little bit about immigration and censorship that's happening in England.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and you see the consequences,

Speaker 2 particularly in places that don't have free speech. Yes.
Like England.

Speaker 6 Yeah, where they lock people up for memes and stuff. Literally.
Literally.

Speaker 2 12,000 people this year.

Speaker 6 12,000? 12,000.

Speaker 2 12,000 arrests for social media posts.

Speaker 6 I mean, yeah,

Speaker 6 some of these things you read about it, and it's like literally, it's someone had a meme on their phone that they didn't even send to anyone. Right.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 they're like in prison for that. Yeah.

Speaker 6 I mean, there was a case in Germany where a woman got a longer sentence than the guy that raped her because of something she said on a group chat.

Speaker 4 Wow.

Speaker 2 Was it an immigrant who raped her?

Speaker 6 Yes.

Speaker 2 Yeah. It was his culture.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 2 He didn't know. He didn't know better.

Speaker 6 Yes. I think think she said something um you know not not like was critical of his culture and uh and and and she got a longer sentence than the guy who raped her well in germany

Speaker 4 so let's start with the uk uh we covered that on the live show just a couple of weeks ago again it wasn't 12 000 people who were arrested for social media posts it included all malicious communications including harassing phone calls so anytime you used a communications device in order to harass someone that counted it wasn't people who were sharing memes.

Speaker 4 That's not what this was. And listen to what Elon believes is happening.
That someone has a meme on their phone that they didn't share with anyone, that they just downloaded for some reason.

Speaker 4 And we know and we've arrested people are in prison for that is what he had said.

Speaker 4 And then he goes on to imply that another person was in prison or is in prison that got a longer sentence because of than the person who raped her because of something they said in a group chat.

Speaker 4 Are they in prison who is that person marsh so yeah i took a look into this story um the woman that they're talking about here uh goes by the name of maya her full name isn't released as according to kind of anonymity laws with uh with german trials and things but she was 20 years old she's from hamburg and she called the rapist a disgusting a disgraceful rapist pig and a disgusting freak um that is why uh and that is what she'd said here uh and she did go to prison over this now to be clear that isn't saying something that's critical of his culture That is calling him a disgusting freak.

Speaker 4 It's not about him being an immigrant.

Speaker 4 But let's get some of the details straight here. Elon says a rape victim was sent to prison for longer than her rapist.
Maya was not the rape victim in this story.

Speaker 4 What happened was this rapist's phone number was released on Snapchat. It was publicly leaked.
She found that number.

Speaker 4 didn't know the guy, WhatsApped him, having seen the story and said, you are a disgusting, a disgraceful rapist, pig, a disgusting freak.

Speaker 4 And she was sent to uh prison for this now the thing is i'll say yeah she was absolutely right he is disgusting he is disgraceful rape is abhorrent she is right about those things but she was indeed sentenced to a harsher prison sentence than he served in that she went to prison for a weekend um and he got a non-custodial sentence But there's context here.

Speaker 4 There's context to understand. She got this sentence because she'd already had prior convictions for theft and she didn't turn up for her trial.
And so was essentially sentenced as a result of that.

Speaker 4 Meanwhile, the rapist wasn't given a soft sentence because it was his culture to rape people. He was given a non-custodial sentence because he was 15 at the time of the crime.

Speaker 4 And so he was only subject to juvenile sentencing.

Speaker 4 There wasn't an option to send him to prison for this because Germany's laws around juvenile criminals doesn't include a custodial sentence for this crime. He wasn't tried as an adult.

Speaker 4 There were limits to what sentencing he could possibly receive. So you can completely disagree with the outcome here.

Speaker 4 You can say that the rapist should have been given a custodial sentence, even though he was 15.

Speaker 4 You could say that German defamation laws shouldn't come with a threat of a weekend in prison, even if you have prior convictions and you don't turn up for the case and you get done under contempt of court and things.

Speaker 4 What you cannot dispute in any of this is that this is not a case where a woman got a harsher sentence than her rapist because he was an immigrant and she disrespected his culture.

Speaker 4 The entire framing of this story here is completely wrong. So wherever they heard this story,

Speaker 4 that place was either dangerously wrong or deliberately distorted. And it's come to Elon Musk's attention and now he's sharing it on the biggest podcast platform in the world.
And it's all untrue.

Speaker 4 Okay, these next clip is continuing on talking about England.

Speaker 6 Yeah, and totally like, so, I mean,

Speaker 6 these like lovely sort of small towns in, you know, in England, Scotland, Ireland,

Speaker 6 they've been sort of living their lives quietly.

Speaker 6 They're like the Hobbits, frankly.

Speaker 6 In fact, Gerard Tolkien based the Hobbits on people he knew in small town England because they were just like lovely people who liked to smoke their pipe and have nice meals and everything's pleasant.

Speaker 6 The Hobbits in the Shire. Now, the Shire, he's talking about

Speaker 6 places like Hertfordshire, like the Shire is around in the greater London area, Oxfordshire type of thing.

Speaker 6 The reason they've been able to enjoy the Shire is because hard men have protected them from the dangers of the world.

Speaker 6 But since they have

Speaker 6 almost no exposure to the dangers of the world, they don't realize that they're there. until one day, you know,

Speaker 6 a thousand people show up in your village of 500 out of nowhere

Speaker 6 and start raping the kids. This has now happened, God knows how many times in Britain.

Speaker 2 And the crazy thing is... Literally raping.

Speaker 6 It's right. Like some 10-year-old got raped in Ireland like last week.

Speaker 2 Yeah, there's literal rapids.

Speaker 6 They snatched some kid. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And if you criticize it, you can get arrested. And that's where it gets insane.
It's like, how are they not?

Speaker 4 I just want to touch on the Hobbit thing. No notes about that.
British people are all very short. Marsh is different.
Marsh is a wizard, so he's normal sized, but the rest of them are hobbits.

Speaker 4 Yes, yeah, yeah. I'm much older than I look as well.
That's kind of the whole thing with this wizard thing I've got going on. But oh, God, last episode, it was all about drug zombies.

Speaker 4 This episode, we're talking hobbits. This guy will do anything to avoid seeing people as equal human beings.
That's true.

Speaker 4 They are all just NPCs in his world. They really, really are.
You're not wrong.

Speaker 4 I do have to say, I'm a big fan of him describing Oxfordshire as part of the greater London area.

Speaker 4 Oxford is as close to birmingham is as it is london it's like 60 miles from london that is not traditionally known as the greater london area unless you just assume everything in in the uk is london um i do yeah a lot of americans do to be honest um

Speaker 4 especially when it comes to the accent anyone from england has a london accent apparently um

Speaker 4 But what he's describing here is basically he's talking his way through that ludicrous hard men create soft times, soft times create soft men, soft men create hard times, that meme.

Speaker 4 And that's because this 54-year-old man can only understand the world or communicate in memes or in references to Lord of the Rings and things.

Speaker 4 And he says, you know, until one day a thousand people show up in your village of 500 out of nowhere and start raping kids, that's happened God knows how many times in Britain.

Speaker 4 And he's actually right. That has happened a lot in Britain, but a bit less often since the 11th century when we stopped getting invaded by.
Yeah, you know, it's timelines off.

Speaker 4 yeah yeah exactly um and what i i do think is interesting he says it happens he says literally it's happening all the time the raping kids happening all the time there's a case in ireland right now he brings up as evidence of all of the number of cases in britain it's happening all the time in britain here is a company that here's a country that quite famously throughout its history isn't British, it doesn't want to be British, is not British, is its own country.

Speaker 4 Really, really pushed against the idea that they're British quite a bit.

Speaker 4 There were some disagreements over it. Yeah, some quite lengthy disagreements over it.

Speaker 4 But it just shows how much investment he has in the truth and accuracy of what he's saying. How these are...

Speaker 4 The reason he is so bringing these things out with such a flat understanding, such a minimal, shallow understanding, is because these just bubble up to the surface of Twitter where he vibes and gets the vibe of what's going on.

Speaker 4 So what about Ireland?

Speaker 4 Well, currently the name and the nationality of the rapist in Ireland who did rape a 10-year-old girl hasn't been released, but that's customary in cases of sexual assault in Ireland.

Speaker 4 That is just the law in Ireland. You don't release the name of the perpetrator until there has been a conviction in order to make sure that there is an assumption of innocence before guilt.

Speaker 4 However, that hasn't stopped people spreading the rumor that it was an illegal migrant. I don't know for certain whether it was or wasn't.

Speaker 4 But as a result, there were protests where police vans were set alight.

Speaker 4 And those protests were stalked by people like James Goddard and other far-right leaders, which is almost certainly how Elon Musk came to know about the story in any kind of way.

Speaker 4 But even if it turns out that it actually was a migrant or a refugee who did commit this crime, what that means is that a refugee committed a crime.

Speaker 4 And that's bad, but it's bad because it's bad when crime gets committed by anybody. It doesn't tar all refugees with this same brush as Elon would like it to.
Yeah,

Speaker 4 he's trying to single out immigrants as if they are bad people instead of going after the crime itself, right? To say, hey, anybody who commits this crime is bad.

Speaker 4 And then he very specifically says, yeah, you know, like a thousand, 500 people show up at your, at your door and start raping kids. He's not saying that one immigrant did a bad thing.

Speaker 4 He's saying all immigrants, these 500 people are doing a bad thing because they are all the same. This is degrading immigrants to try to say that they are all criminals and all sexual predators.

Speaker 4 That's an awful shitty, racist thing to say that he just said on the largest podcast in the world.

Speaker 6 Yes, it is.

Speaker 4 All right.

Speaker 4 He's going to continue talking about that same piece. We're not skipping any tape here.
This is the next piece here, continuing, talking about that case.

Speaker 6 I think it was the Prime Minister of Ireland actually posted on X

Speaker 6 because

Speaker 6 after that

Speaker 6 some, I think some illegal migrant snatched a 10-year-old girl who was like going to school or something and violently raped a 10-year-old girl.

Speaker 6 And there was a, you know, the people were very upset about this and they protested.

Speaker 6 Prime Minister of Ireland, instead of saying, yeah, we really shouldn't be importing violent rapists into our country, he criticized the protesters instead and didn't mention that.

Speaker 6 That the reason they were protesting was because a 10-year-old girl from their small town got raped.

Speaker 4 So again, you don't know that he was a migrant. He might well have been.
He might not have been. The name has not been released of

Speaker 4 this suspect here. Similarly, the Prime Minister was criticizing the protests because they were attacking police, because they were burning police vans.
These were riots as protests.

Speaker 4 But he says, instead of saying that we shouldn't be importing violent rapists, nobody imports violent rapists. It wasn't on a customs form.

Speaker 4 There wasn't an import tax category for violent rapists, like what's in the box, one violent rapist.

Speaker 4 People are people. Most are good.
Some aren't good. That's true wherever they're from in the world.

Speaker 4 And if you only care about the rape of young girls when it's an immigrant you think is the perpetrator, your concern isn't for the girls there. It absolutely isn't.
Very true. Very true.

Speaker 4 This is continuing the tape. We haven't skipped anything.
They're going to continue talking about mass immigration.

Speaker 2 So here's the question. Why are they supporting this kind of mass immigration? And what, like, is this, is there a plan involved in all this? Is just, is this incompetence?

Speaker 2 Is this ignoring the fact that they don't have a handle on it, so they're trying to silence dissent. Like, what is happening?

Speaker 2 Um, because if you want to destroy civilization, if you want to destroy Western civilization, which Sora seems to want to do, um,

Speaker 6 and you know, there's just

Speaker 6 so the

Speaker 6 there's there's a guy, I think, who I don't know if he's been on your show, you know, God Saad, yeah, has he been on the show?

Speaker 2 Good friend of mine, yeah, yeah, he's great, he's been on multiple times.

Speaker 6 Oh, great, that's all he's awesome. Um, so uh, you know, the way he's he's got a good uh way to describe it, which which is suicidal empathy.
Yes.

Speaker 6 So

Speaker 6 is that you prey upon people's empathy. You say, like, well, like, you feel sorry for

Speaker 6 some group. And then, like, well,

Speaker 6 and

Speaker 6 that empathy is to such a degree that it is suicidal to

Speaker 6 your country or culture.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 that suicidal empathy. Because I think we should have empathy,

Speaker 6 but

Speaker 6 that empathy should extend to the victims,

Speaker 6 not just the criminals. We should have empathy for the people that they prey upon.

Speaker 6 But that suicidal empathy is also responsible for why somebody is arrested 47 times for violent offenses, gets released, and then goes and murders somebody in the U.S.

Speaker 6 You see that same phenomenon playing out everywhere where the suicidal emphasis is to such a degree that we're actually allowing our women to get raped and our children to get killed

Speaker 4 i love that they have to put a qualifier on empathy to make it sound bad they have to create a new word in order to make empathy sound bad and make you want to reject it yeah absolutely and notice in all of that that drive-by on george soros there oh yeah as elon musk is saying like you know if you want to destroy western civilization and sorry as jaw says if you want to destroy western civilization and elon says which george soros seems to want to do so again we can see where where Elon is getting his information because it leads to this anti-Soros kind of conspiracy theory stuff.

Speaker 4 And then Elon says, you know, empathy should extend to the victims, not just the criminals. That is a total straw, man.
Nobody is saying don't have empathy for the victims.

Speaker 4 Nobody is suggesting that empathy should only be extended to the criminals. In fact, what people are saying is we should be thinking about the fact that criminals are human beings.

Speaker 4 How do we stop them being perpetrators in the future? How do we rehabilitate them so that they don't commit crimes in the future? That's the things that we're talking about here.

Speaker 4 And he's not talking about just the criminals either. What he's saying is when somebody from a class of people commits a crime, we should be demonizing that entire class of people.
Yes.

Speaker 4 We shouldn't have empathy for anybody who is from the same background as that criminal. That is a totally different thing.
He's saying we shouldn't be allowing the rape and murder.

Speaker 4 Nobody is allowing the rape and murder of anybody. That is not a decision people are making.
This is all racist strawmanning, essentially.

Speaker 4 Okay, so this next bit is talking about vetting people who come into,

Speaker 4 who immigrate into another country.

Speaker 2 But it just doesn't seem like that would be anything that any rational society would go along with. That's what makes me so confused.

Speaker 2 It's like you're importing massive numbers of people that come from some really dark places of the world.

Speaker 6 Well, there's no vetting is the issue. It's like, it's like

Speaker 6 if there's no vetting, like people are just coming through, like, well, what's to stop someone who just com committed murder in some other country from

Speaker 6 coming to the United States or coming to Britain and just continuing their career of rape and murder?

Speaker 6 Like, unless you've done, unless there's some due diligence to say, like, well, who is this person? What's their track record?

Speaker 6 If you haven't confirmed that they have a track record of being

Speaker 6 honest and

Speaker 6 not being a homicidal maniac, then any homicidal maniac can just come across the border.

Speaker 6 Let's not say everyone who comes across the border is a homicidal maniac, but if you don't have a vetting process to confirm that you're not letting in

Speaker 6 people who will do some serious violence, you will get people who do serious violence sometimes coming through.

Speaker 2 Well, especially if you don't punish them and if you don't deport them. And if you are just like, well, but what is the purpose of allowing all those people into the country?

Speaker 2 It can't be ⁇ I wouldn't imagine that anyone in their society supports that.

Speaker 6 Well, let me explain. So

Speaker 4 just notice that Joy says these people come from dark places of the world. That's why they're leaving, Joy.
Yeah, right? That's like if your, if where you lived was suddenly

Speaker 4 war-torn and impoverished and struck by natural disasters and things, and it became a failed state for that reason, you might want to leave for the good of you and your family.

Speaker 4 That doesn't make you an evil person because where you're coming from is in a real turmoil right now, but you're assuming here that it does.

Speaker 4 And just so you know, and I'm sure people don't believe this, but there is vetting that is happening of these people.

Speaker 4 If vetting was a real issue, you would fund it much better than you do enforcement for undocumented people.

Speaker 4 Instead, we're seeing they cut immigration judges, which whose job it is to help vet people, we cut them in favor of enforcers.

Speaker 4 You can just tell that they don't believe this by how much money they're willing to spend on each different piece. So, here's a quote from a White House correspondent, Laura Baron-Lopez.

Speaker 4 She was talking about the recent funding bill that went through for the Department of Homeland Security for immigration.

Speaker 4 So, here's what she says: quote, there's more than 160 billion that are going to immigration enforcement and the deportation operation.

Speaker 4 So, when you break it down, it means 46.5 billion going to building the rest of the border wall, 45 billion to immigration detention centers, nearly 30 billion to hiring and training I staff, and 3.3 billion to immigration courts and attorneys.

Speaker 4 End quote.

Speaker 4 So that shows you that there is very little money going to the vetting process, and most of it is going to the enforcement and housing of these migrants that we are picking up and trying to deport.

Speaker 4 In this clip, they say, well, we're not suggesting that all people are bad that are coming in. We're just saying that there's no vetting.

Speaker 4 It's like by claiming that this vetting process doesn't exist, you're doing exactly that by saying that people come from anywhere and they could be secret murderers.

Speaker 4 That's what you're doing when you make you're trying to make a caveat for it, but you're literally doing just that. Yeah, exactly.
And look, obviously, there can be some issues with vetting.

Speaker 4 Of course, there can. If someone's fleeing a war zone or fleeing a terrorist regime, they might not have their documents with them.

Speaker 4 And it can be pretty hard to know that they are who they say they are. It's hard to know what they're about.
That is a difficult thing in vetting.

Speaker 4 It's why you need to fund those vetting programs much better than the 2% of the budget that you're talking about there.

Speaker 4 But also, if you incentivize people to lose their documents in order to apply for asylum, because, for example, you've closed off legal routes of immigration, as we have in the UK, there is no legal route for migration for a lot of people.

Speaker 4 It's go to

Speaker 4 a place in France and that will be your route in, but we won't accept you. It's kind of been the policy here for a long time.

Speaker 4 What you do then is you actively make vetting harder because you encourage people to get here and not have their documents. So, whoops, you can't tell what I'm about.

Speaker 4 So, I've got to stay here while you process me.

Speaker 4 If vetting was your priority, you invest in immigration services and you invest in providing safe and legal routes for people so they don't have to take, as we see in the UK, a small boat across the channel to suddenly arrive here and claim asylum.

Speaker 4 But vetting isn't their concern. Vetting is the fig leaf they're putting over the actual issues that they have, which is migration at all.

Speaker 4 And once again, Elon is making several really confident claims here about how this system all works. And he doesn't have even half a clue of of what he's talking about.

Speaker 4 And this is someone who, it's worth pointing out, is an immigrant. Elon Musk is an immigrant.
And what he means when he talks about immigration is not the ones like me.

Speaker 4 He's not talking about keeping people like him out or vetting people like him. He's talking about vetting other people from the dark places of the world, as Joel Rogan put it.
Yeah. And

Speaker 4 so we've sort of worked our way through part of immigration in the last episode and this episode,

Speaker 4 but really there is a narrative that they're trying to spin about immigration. So people come here, they're trying to devalue empathy.

Speaker 4 We've seen that. They're trying to devalue how we treat immigrants.
And now they're trying to say the reason why we should do that is because it's all a big scam and the Democrats are to blame.

Speaker 6 Because you mentioned, for example, how much, say, Hillary and Obama have changed their tune

Speaker 6 from prior speeches where

Speaker 6 they were hard-nosed about not letting in anyone who is a criminal into the country,

Speaker 6 having secure borders, all that stuff. So why did they change the tune? The reason is that they discovered that those people vote for them.
That's why they want the open borders.

Speaker 2 Because if you let people in, they know the Democrats let them in. They'll vote for Democrats if you allow them to vote.

Speaker 6 Which they're actively trying.

Speaker 6 They turn a blind eye to illegal voting.

Speaker 2 Well, California literally doesn't allow you to show your license.

Speaker 6 California and New York have made it illegal to show your photo ID when voting. Thus, effectively, they've made it impossible to prove fraud.
Impossible.

Speaker 6 They've essentially legalized fraudulent voting in California and New York and many other parts of the country.

Speaker 2 There's no rational explanation that I've ever seen anyone give as to why that would be the policy. Unless you were trying to just allow people to vote illegally, because there's no other reason.

Speaker 2 If you need a driver's license or you need an ID for everything else, including just recently to prove that you were vaccinated.

Speaker 6 The same people who are demanding

Speaker 6 that you have a vaccine passport

Speaker 6 are the same ones saying you need no ID to vote. Same people.
Right.

Speaker 6 So it's obviously hypocritical and inconsistent.

Speaker 4 So look, he's talking about Hillary and Obama at the start there. They changed their tune because they were no longer seeking office.

Speaker 4 So they didn't have to say things that pander to immigration hardliners. That's why

Speaker 4 their language will change. Their tune will change from their hard-nosed approach.
They're no longer seeking office. They don't need to pander here.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 And he says very confidently here, immigrants are voting. That's not true.
Immigrants cannot vote federal elections. They're not allowed to do it.
He doesn't have any proof.

Speaker 4 He's just saying it very confidently. I think he's just lying here.
Yeah, absolutely. He says, you know, they turn a blind eye to illegal voting.
So at that point, that is saying that it is a

Speaker 4 deliberate ploy. It's a deliberate plan.
Well, prove that. Offer literally anything.
In fact, there's a very rich guy sitting currently in half a White House who would bite your hand off.

Speaker 4 He'd bite your hand off for any evidence of illegal voting. He lost more than 60 cases claiming there was voter fraud.

Speaker 4 If Elon Musk has evidence that people are turning a blind eye to illegal voting, Donald Trump would be first in line to have that evidence. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And I know we've mentioned this multiple times before, but Joe brings up

Speaker 4 voter ID a lot on this show. And I just want to mention, if you've never listened to the previous shows, maybe this is your first show, voter ID, the reason why

Speaker 4 voter ID is a sort of a bad policy is that if you happen to be someone who doesn't have a lot of time in your schedule or the money to go get a license, if you don't need it, if you use public transportation all the time, you don't necessarily need a driver's license, you might not take time out of your busy schedule, especially if you work multiple jobs to try to keep yourself above water in the United States to go get a license.

Speaker 4 You might not do it if you're in poverty. It might be a thing that you just don't bother to do.
We don't carve out any time for people to do this.

Speaker 4 Give people a full day off of work if that's the case. Paid day off of work to go get your license renewed and fixed every single year or go get a voter ID card every single year or whatever.

Speaker 4 They don't offer those types of things. They just say, well, you need to go do it.
And of course they do that very specifically because they know that people in poverty won't do that sort of thing.

Speaker 4 They won't take time out of their schedule to do that sort of thing because they're busy trying to live.

Speaker 4 And so they know that they're going to essentially silence the voices of tons of people all the way across the country.

Speaker 4 And there's plenty of ways to prove that you are you without actually having an ID. You can use signatures, which is what we use across the country.
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4 I mean, the facilities that would be there to implement voter ID, those facilities won't be rolled out with the same level of support in all the communities that need it. Yes.

Speaker 4 The times that those buildings are typically open will be the same types of times that people are working. So only people who can afford to take time out will be able to go to them.

Speaker 4 There's all sorts of ways that it bakes in

Speaker 4 discrimination against people who are in poverty or in other sort of marginalized communities.

Speaker 4 One really fun thing that struck me to compare during Joe's conversation there, on the last show, not the last one, on the live show we did a QED, Joe talked about how scary it was that the UK were about to bring in digital IDs.

Speaker 4 That you're going to have a digital ID coming in and you have to show it for all sorts of things. Digital ID is in part a way to make it easy to prove their ID when it comes to voting.

Speaker 4 So there isn't voter fraud. Now, we don't need it.
There isn't isn't voter fraud in this country, just as there isn't in yours.

Speaker 4 I don't want it, but it is a solution to what he's talking about right now. And he demonized it two shows ago, like on our show.
We covered him saying that digital ID is a big, scary thing.

Speaker 4 Here he's turned to Elon Musk. Well, why can't they just get people to show their ID for voting? Yeah.
Which is it, Joe? You know,

Speaker 4 which is it here? Yeah. And then there's a false equivalence too that he throws in here where he says, like, essentially the people who wanted a vaccine passport want to say you don't need ID to vote.

Speaker 4 Those are two very, very different things. You go and get a thing that is useful to you, especially as someone who has to probably deal with the public very often during a pandemic.

Speaker 4 You go get a vaccine and then they give you a card. It's not like you're going there for nothing.

Speaker 4 A lot of people that are in poverty don't even vote because they don't feel like the system even represents them. So they're not getting anything out of voting.

Speaker 4 They don't get giant tax breaks like you do, Joe, for voting. They get nothing out of it.
They just keep getting kicked over and over again.

Speaker 4 So there's a difference between the outcomes of those two pieces.

Speaker 4 All right, we're going to take a short break. We'll be back right after this.

Speaker 4 Okay, welcome back. Let's jump right back in.

Speaker 4 Okay, so we're skipping a little bit ahead here, and they're talking about immigration still and apprehending people, et cetera.

Speaker 6 If Trump had lost, there would never have been another real election again,

Speaker 6 because Trump is actually enforcing the border.

Speaker 6 Now, you can

Speaker 6 you can point to situations where there's been

Speaker 6 immigration

Speaker 6 enforcement has been overzealous, because they're not going to be perfect. There'll be cases where they've been overzealous

Speaker 6 in expelling illegals.

Speaker 6 But if you say that the standard must be perfection

Speaker 6 for expelling illegals, then you will not get any expulsion because perfection is impossible.

Speaker 2 And you've probably got millions of people that are here that are trying to be here under some asylum pretense, right? Yes. Like you could just come from a warped

Speaker 6 world.

Speaker 6 They changed the definition of asylum to be an economic, to be economic asylum. Which is everybody.
Which is everybody. Yeah.
So

Speaker 2 it's always bar to prove.

Speaker 4 They say at one point, he says, if Trump had lost, there would never be another real election again. I don't know that there's going to be another one now.

Speaker 4 I just want to say that out loud before next year's midterms. I just want to get that on paper.
Also, listen to what he has to say. He's like, the immigration has been overzealous.

Speaker 4 I love overzealous issues. The word he settles on.
Yeah, yeah. And he had to search so long for a euphemism for what ICE are doing.

Speaker 4 It was a good five or six seconds where he finds overzealous eventually.

Speaker 4 And notice that Joe doesn't push back on characterizing the ICE enforcement of immigration policies as nothing more than overzealous.

Speaker 4 So think of all those stories that we've seen about how Trump might lose Joe over the ICE mass arrests and the targeting.

Speaker 4 And there's been stories about how Joe said no one voted for this and he was disgusted by it. No, he's not going to lose his

Speaker 4 overzealous and he'll nod along and happily let you carry on. So yeah, yeah, great.
He's on board. Great point.

Speaker 4 Also, just this is a straw man. No one's suggesting that immigration needs to be perfect.
They should, you know, just follow the laws and not use force. And they can't even do those things.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 And also they should err on the side of not deporting legal citizens. That would be an ideal level of

Speaker 4 yeah.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 100% confidently says there's economic asylum. This is definitively a lie.
There is no economic asylum. That does not exist.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 He says, yeah, they've changed the definition of asylum to be economic. That is not the case at all.

Speaker 4 But also, if you think that the American American economy is in a place where everybody in the world could qualify for economic asylum, there, you've not looked at the price of eggs in America lately.

Speaker 4 Like,

Speaker 4 you guys, I think there's a lot of places that don't need your asylum. That's so true.
I just want to, and for proof, I will put a link in the show notes as to how we decide who has asylum.

Speaker 4 This is from the 1951 convention relating to the status of refugees and the

Speaker 4 1967 protocol relating to the states, the status of refugees.

Speaker 4 They define refugee as a person who is unable or unwilling to return to their home country and cannot obtain protection in that country due to past persecution or a well-founded fear of being persecuted in the future on the count of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion.

Speaker 4 That's the standard we use in the United States to make a decision. And that is a pretty tough standard to meet, actually.

Speaker 4 A well-founded fear is something that can absolutely be manipulated by a lot of different people to keep people out of this country.

Speaker 4 It has nothing, you listen to that, there's nothing in there at all about economics. All right, so here's what Elon thinks asylum is.

Speaker 6 Yeah, asylum, is supposed to mean that if you go back to your country, you'll get killed. You know, that's what we mean by by asylum.
That was what it was supposed to mean.

Speaker 6 They changed the definition of asylum to be: you will have a decreased standard of living, which is obviously not real asylum.

Speaker 6 And you can test the absurdity of this by the fact that people who are asylum seekers go on vacation to the country that they're seeking asylum from.

Speaker 6 You know, that doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it doesn't have to.

Speaker 6 But when you understand the incentives,

Speaker 6 then you understand the behavior.

Speaker 6 So once the left realized

Speaker 4 that illegals will vote for them

Speaker 6 if they have open borders and combine that with

Speaker 6 government handouts

Speaker 6 to create a massive incentive, they're basically using

Speaker 6 U.S. and European taxpayer dollars to provide a financial incentive.
to bring in as many illegals as possible to vote them into

Speaker 6 permanent power and create a one-party state. And I invite anyone who's listening to this, just do any research.
And

Speaker 6 the more you dig into it, the more it will become obvious that what I'm saying is absolutely true.

Speaker 4 It is not absolutely true. New people, people who go back to their country of origin,

Speaker 4 they risk being thrown out of the asylum process. That happens.

Speaker 4 Also, just so you know, countries are big places. They're not just a tiny little place.
So, you might have persecution in a small part of that country and you might go back to visit somebody during

Speaker 4 an emergency. Maybe your mother died or something and you go back to that country.
You can still lose asylum for that, by the way. That's something that can happen.

Speaker 4 But he's suggesting that this happens all the time. And to be honest, if somebody

Speaker 4 had that as an excuse and I was an immigration judge, I might consider and be like, oh, okay, that actually doesn't sound that bad when you explain it. Yeah, yeah, I think so.

Speaker 4 And honestly, like, I don't know that he's lying i think it might just be that he is so ill-informed and so overconfident that he has genuinely no idea what the actual truth is and i think that's far far scarier than him lying here i think that's the charitable option and again the charitable option is the one that actually is the most uh damning for him i'd say So he says anybody who does a bit of the research

Speaker 4 will know that what he's saying is true. Well, it isn't actually true at all.

Speaker 4 What he's describing here, and just be clear, what he is saying is happening is that there is the paying of migrants in order to come in and overrun the electoral base of a state in order to create a supermajority and a one-party state.

Speaker 4 That is the great replacement theory. It is.
That is absolutely the great replacement theory, which is the anti-Semitic racist conspiracy theory.

Speaker 4 That's what this is. The great replacement theory.
is coming up way more often in Joe Rogan's show that I am comfortable with for the largest podcast series in the world.

Speaker 4 And at least when it came up on the Barry Weiss episode, he was against that idea. He didn't think think it was a true idea.
She brought up that this is a conspiracy theory that people believe.

Speaker 4 And he was not on board with that conspiracy theory. Here we are, you know, six years later, and he is allowing Elon Musk to explain that this is the truth of what's happening.

Speaker 4 So this next bit is about Social Security and very specifically about the shutdown.

Speaker 2 Well, this is the thing about Medicaid and Social Security and people getting Social Security numbers. You know, that was a lot of fun.

Speaker 4 It's a massive fraud.

Speaker 2 It's massive fraud and it's real. And they denied it forever.

Speaker 6 And now we're finding out this is part of the reason why this is government shutdown that's going on right now yes the the entire basis for the government shutdown is that um is that the trump administration correctly does not want to send massive amounts of like hundreds of billions of dollars uh to fund uh illegal immigrants in the blue states or in all the states really um

Speaker 6 and so the and the democrats want to keep the the money spigot going to incent illegal immigrants to come into the U.S. who will vote for them.
That's the crux of the battle.

Speaker 2 So they want to stop.

Speaker 4 So yeah, that's the entire basis of the government shutdown? Is that the case, Cecil? You live under their government? Under their government? That's literally 100% not even close to true.

Speaker 4 It has nothing to do with fraud. It has nothing to do with immigration.
The shutdown doesn't have anything to do with those things.

Speaker 4 It has to do with extending COVID era protections on insurance that would raise the premiums and make health insurance more expensive for most vulnerable population in the United States, the more people that are on the poverty line.

Speaker 4 So spreading this on your show as fraud is literally a lie.

Speaker 4 And also very specifically and importantly, more than half of the ACA enrollees, the people who would benefit from this money not going away, they're in Republican districts and Republican states.

Speaker 4 So these people who are benefiting from this that the Democrats are fighting so hard for, more than half of them are Republicans. This is something we touched on before.

Speaker 4 I want to just play this short clip about five-star hotels.

Speaker 2 So, what's going on right now is they have been funding these people. They've been giving them EBT cards.
They've been giving them Medicaid.

Speaker 6 And more than that, just like

Speaker 6 they were taking hotels, like four and five-star hotels, like the Roosevelt Hotel being the classic example,

Speaker 6 was they were sending, I think, $60 million a year to the Roosevelt Hotel,

Speaker 6 which all it did was house illegals. And it used to be a nice hotel.
I mean, it still is a nice hotel.

Speaker 6 But

Speaker 6 all around the country, this was happening.

Speaker 2 And all tax dollars.

Speaker 6 Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 6 Yeah. And the Trump administration cut off funding, for example,

Speaker 6 to the Roosevelt Hotel and these other hotels saying, like,

Speaker 6 U.S. tax dollars should not be paid, be sent to have luxury hotels for illegal immigrants that that American citizens can't even afford, which obviously is the case.

Speaker 6 That's insane. That's what was happening.

Speaker 4 Okay,

Speaker 4 that's just a lie.

Speaker 4 They don't get EBT. So they don't get government assistance for food.

Speaker 4 Some immigrants, much farther along in the process, that have a green card and that have done some work to become citizens, they might have access to EBT, but you don't just get EBT when you show up here in the United States.

Speaker 4 That's a lie. That's just not true.
They also don't get health insurance. That's another thing that they try to push.
That's not true.

Speaker 4 And the five-star hotel thing, that's a misinterpretation of the spending of that money.

Speaker 4 That's, it's not true that government, that immigrants are just spending nights in five-star hotels based on how they get here. And it also neglects the.

Speaker 4 entire busing of migrants to a cold place during a cold time from Texas that was happening where people had to rush to try to figure out a place to put them when we already had places for undocumented migrants in Texas and they decided to bust them in other places to cause this kind of chaos.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And that hotel thing, that's the kind of rhetoric that comes up here in the UK as well, where people will say, well, why are migrants being paid to be put up?

Speaker 4 Why are we paying to put migrants up in four-star hotels?

Speaker 4 And what people assume when they hear a four or a five-star hotel is that that building, they've got, you know, the beautiful room, there's one person in it, there's a room service, it's incredible luxury.

Speaker 4 And what in reality is they, we are like hiring some of those that room spaces and like lining it up where there's multiple occupancy in that one room room and they're not having a luxury experience.

Speaker 4 There's some of the hotels that may once have been considered four star or may have rooms that are four star, but actually they are not getting the four star luxury experience at all.

Speaker 4 It's just that they need to go somewhere. Certainly in the UK, the reason for that is we have underinvested in the kind of place, like the kind of housing that we used to have immigrants live in.

Speaker 4 And because there's an underinvestment, we have to have them go somewhere. And so we have to hire hotel space for them.

Speaker 4 But we do that in as least comfortable a way as possible, but it still creates this

Speaker 4 rhetoric point that can be used to point score. And also,

Speaker 4 let's roll back to the last episode. He doesn't want homeless people anywhere and he doesn't want migrants living in hotels.

Speaker 4 What he doesn't want is anybody anywhere that he can see or getting any money for anything. That's what he wants.

Speaker 4 He wants to have a very specific America that is based for him and his friends and has no help for anyone else out there.

Speaker 4 And he doesn't want to have to see people because what's the option?

Speaker 4 If they don't have a place to go, where do they go? Well, they go on the street. Well, he doesn't want to see them on the street either.
This is another piece of the fraud that he talks about.

Speaker 4 He says that they're giving out lots of money to people.

Speaker 6 They were also giving out like debit cards with $10,000. So it's not just about medical care.

Speaker 6 The Democrats mentioned the medical care because they're trying to prey on people's empathy as much as possible. And then they imagine, oh, wow, somebody has a desperately needed medical procedure.

Speaker 6 And shouldn't we maybe

Speaker 6 take care of them in that regard? But what they do is they divert the Medicaid funds and turn it into a slush fund for the states that goes well beyond emergency medical care.

Speaker 6 New York and California would be bankrupt

Speaker 6 without the massive fraudulent federal payments that go to those states to pay for illegals,

Speaker 6 to create a massive financial incentive for illegals.

Speaker 2 How would they be bankrupt because of that?

Speaker 6 They wouldn't be able to balance their state budgets, and they can't issue currency like the Federal Reserve can.

Speaker 4 So let's first of all look at this $10,000 in a credit card. I think from what I could find, he appears to have got that credit card story from someone called Mark Levin on Twitter.

Speaker 4 Mark Levine, who is a conservative activist who's worked with Turning Point. He was sponsored by the Cork Foundation.
So he is big into the right of center money.

Speaker 4 And he's got a lot of history with statements that align with many of those talking points that come from that right of center.

Speaker 4 So he's someone who said that COVID was completely overblown, that there was a deep state coup against Donald Trump, all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 4 And as far as I can tell, that is where Elon is getting this $10,000 to every migrant on a credit card from. So it shows again that Elon's information diet is completely poisoned by

Speaker 4 who he's built Twitter to bring to him,

Speaker 4 whose opinions he's built Twitter to direct towards him. And I looked this up.
There's an AP article that I'll link. They get 12 bucks a day and they get it for 28 days.

Speaker 4 And they were getting it in New York City. So try to live $12 a day in New York City.
Here's a quote from that article. Quote, we will provide prepaid debit cards to an initial 500 migrant families

Speaker 4 with children who may use the prepaid cards exclusively at bodegas, grocery stores, supermarkets, convenience stores to ensure the money is spent on food and baby supplies. So very specifically,

Speaker 4 this is,

Speaker 4 again,

Speaker 4 basically because they bust a bunch of people up there.

Speaker 4 They tried to create this crisis and they had to give these people something because if not, then they're just gonna, they're gonna die on the streets of New York. Is that something?

Speaker 4 Is that a preferable thing that we want? And they're not giving him $10,000. They're giving him 12 bucks a day for 28 days.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 I wanna talk briefly about the piece at the end where he says New York and California go bankrupt if it wasn't for these federalized payments, these fraudulent payments back.

Speaker 4 The blue states pay way more than they get. Okay.
So that's just a lie. That's just not true.
those states give a lot more money than they get back in federal dollars

Speaker 4 only 13 u.s states send more money to the federal government coffers than they receive

Speaker 4 These are all traditionally blue except for Utah and Wyoming. Nevada and Minnesota are in there and they're occasionally blue.
California gives way more money than it gets back.

Speaker 4 Same with New York and Illinois. I'll put a link in the show notes so you can look at those numbers.
Yeah, and it's so hard because through all of that, it's not even a long clip.

Speaker 4 That wasn't a a particularly long clip. It's like about a minute, just less than a minute.
It's such a

Speaker 4 just less than two minutes, something like that. Anyway, it's a short clip.

Speaker 4 It's such a fire hose of untrue ideas that it's hard to know where to start and it's hard to know where he's getting any of that stuff. But it clearly shows you

Speaker 4 where Elon Musk's mind is on these issues and how poisoned it has been by his media diet.

Speaker 4 Okay, this is the next clip here talking about how the Democratic Party wants to destroy America.

Speaker 6 So like in a nutshell,

Speaker 6 the Democratic Party wants to destroy democracy by importing voters. And

Speaker 6 the Republican Party disagrees with that.

Speaker 2 And the ruse is that if you don't accept what they're doing, then you're a threat to democracy.

Speaker 6 Yes.

Speaker 2 As they try to destroy democracy.

Speaker 6 Yes.

Speaker 2 By importing voters. That is

Speaker 2 the people to only vote for them and overwhelming the system.

Speaker 6 Yes. And by the way, it's a strategy that, if allowed to work, would work.
And in fact, has worked.

Speaker 4 So you could not get a clearer explanation of the great replacement theory yeah that's what this is the great replacement conspiracy theory right here and again joe isn't rejecting this as he did when barry weiss was talking about how the crazy people believe this thing he's walking through the steps of it and agreeing at every stage he's understanding he's taking this on board this is just proof that joe has been radicalized over a very over six years at least Yeah, it's a dangerous anti-Semitic conspiracy theory, and it has its, and it also is a dangerous anti-immigrant conspiracy theory.

Speaker 4 It's awful all the way around, and Joe 100% sounds like he believes it. Okay, so now we're going to talk a little bit about the census in this next clip.

Speaker 6 And then here's another thing that is very important:

Speaker 6 fact that is actually not disputed by either side, which is that when we do the census in the United States, the census, the way the census works for apportionment of congressional seats and

Speaker 6 electoral college votes for the president is by number of persons in a state, not number of citizens, it's number of people. So you could literally be a tourist and you will count.
Aaron Powell,

Speaker 2 how do they do the census when they do that?

Speaker 2 Do they ask people? Do they knock on doors? Do they have them fill out forms?

Speaker 6 Yeah, I think they mail out census forms and knock on doors.

Speaker 6 But the way the law reads right now

Speaker 6 is that

Speaker 6 if you are a human with a pulse,

Speaker 6 then you count in the census for allocating congressional seats and presidential votes.

Speaker 2 Electoral college,

Speaker 6 it doesn't matter whether you're here legally, illegally.

Speaker 6 If you're a human with a pulse,

Speaker 6 you count for congressional apportionment. So that means that the more people, the more illegals that California and New York can import by the time the census happens in 2030,

Speaker 6 the more congressional seats they will have and

Speaker 6 the more presidential electoral college votes they will have.

Speaker 6 So they're trying to get as many illegals in as possible ahead of the census.

Speaker 6 And because

Speaker 6 all human beings, even tourists, count for the census. And then if you combine that with gerrymandering of districts in New York and California,

Speaker 6 as you point out with this proposition where they're trying to increase the amount of gerrymandering that occurs in California, the biggest state in the country.

Speaker 6 So

Speaker 6 if the census then would award more congressional seats to California

Speaker 6 because of a vast number of illegals, and New York and Illinois,

Speaker 6 so they'd get more congressional seats, they would get more presidential electoral college votes, that would get them the House,

Speaker 6 the majority in the House,

Speaker 6 and they would get to decide who is president,

Speaker 6 literally based on illegals.

Speaker 6 These are not disputed facts by either party. I want to emphasize that that's in camp.

Speaker 2 Yeah, this is not a case.

Speaker 6 These are not disputed facts by either party.

Speaker 6 This is just the way the law works.

Speaker 6 It is, you know, like, I don't think the law should work that way.

Speaker 6 I think it should, the apportionment should be proportionate to citizens.

Speaker 2 But isn't that a problem with how the Constitution is written? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 2 They can't really change that.

Speaker 6 Okay.

Speaker 4 This is, they're using facts here very, very loosely.

Speaker 4 It literally says in the census document, quote, citizens of foreign countries visiting the United States, such as on vacation or a business trip, not counted in the census, end quote.

Speaker 4 I'll put a link to the, this is census.gov. You can look at the link.
Yeah, it's, it's incredible, this, I think, because he says multiple times, these aren't disputed facts.

Speaker 4 This is not disputed by either side. And we've got such confidence and such complete lack of knowledge.
These aren't facts. This is just absolute nonsense.

Speaker 4 He does not understand and hasn't looked into at all. But here he is, the biggest podcast platform in the world, and he's saying it confidently.

Speaker 4 And they do count people who

Speaker 4 don't actually have citizenship. They count the people who live in that area and pay taxes in that area.
And those people are counted, even if they're not citizens.

Speaker 4 That is true, but those people live there and they pay taxes and therefore they should be represented. Yeah, exactly.
And what's interesting is Joe even asks, you know, well, how does that work?

Speaker 4 The tourists, how do they get the tourists? How are they doing the census? And, you know, Elon confirms, yeah, they mail out census forms and knock on doors. Okay.
How is that getting tourists?

Speaker 4 Are they going door to door, like room to room within a hotel to pop little census forms under the door? Even by his own admission there, that isn't going to capture tourists.

Speaker 6 It's ridiculous.

Speaker 4 What about the people who happen to come in for the day? They've just visited New York. You don't get off at Penn Station and get handed a census form to fill in.

Speaker 4 They're going with a clicker at the airport. Exactly.
It's obviously not true. It's happening.
And that's, and that makes sense because why would tourists possibly count?

Speaker 4 It does make sense to count the people who actually live there because you need to know how many schools to have, how many hospitals to have, how to allocate resources for the residents who are going to be there.

Speaker 4 But nobody would count tourists. Like, what is this? The nativity.
Nobody is censusing tourists.

Speaker 4 Just return to the birthplace of your ancestors at Christmas so we can count you there. That'd be a terrible census.

Speaker 4 Great call back there. I love it.

Speaker 4 Look, the census happened when Trump was in office last time. Why are you still complaining about it? Your guy did it.

Speaker 4 Well, the real answer to that is because there'll be another census in the future, and they need to manufacture a threat that's big enough to warrant Trump running for a third term.

Speaker 4 That is what it is.

Speaker 4 Well, you know,

Speaker 4 you've got to have me in because the census is coming and you don't want them in for the census.

Speaker 4 But all of this from Elon, honestly, it sounds to me like a man who is trying to recount something he only half remembers having read on Twitter and isn't expecting any kind of pushback.

Speaker 4 And even when Joe asks a very simple question, he's like, yeah, I think it is like forms and things, but he just doesn't understand any of it because it's nonsense and he's never thought about it because he just uncritically accepts what he sees on his radicalization engine.

Speaker 4 Okay, this last clip in the main event is talking about undocumented truck drivers.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I mean, we actually do have a shortage of truck drivers, but this actually.

Speaker 2 Well, that's why California has hired so many illegals to do it. Have you seen those numbers?

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 I mean, the problem is like when you, when people don't know how to drive a semi-truck, which is actually a hard thing to do, then they crash and kill people. Yeah.

Speaker 6 A friend of mine's wife was killed by an illegal driving a truck, and she was just out biking.

Speaker 6 And there was an illegal who didn't know how to drive the truck horses or something. I mean, and he ran her over.

Speaker 6 So, I mean, like the thing is, like, for something

Speaker 6 like

Speaker 6 you can't let people drive, you know,

Speaker 6 sort of an 80,000-pound semi

Speaker 6 if they don't know how to do it. But in California, they're just letting people do it.

Speaker 2 Because they need people to do it.

Speaker 6 Well, they also need, they want the votes and

Speaker 6 that kind of thing.

Speaker 6 But yeah, like cars are,

Speaker 6 cars are going to be autonomous. Okay.

Speaker 4 Got that little piece in there about autonomous cars.

Speaker 4 It was referring to them talking about things that'll change based on AI. So that's one of the things that they were talking about.
But this is 100%

Speaker 4 a lie in the sense that they're saying that California is just giving these licenses out in order to get a CDL, which is a commercial driver's license in California.

Speaker 4 It's just as hard to get as it is anywhere else in the United States. But that state actually has pretty rigorous requirements.
It requires residency, proof of identity.

Speaker 4 You have to have a medical exam. You have to have good eyesight.
You have to take a written and a driving test in order to get that particular driving license.

Speaker 4 What they're complaining about is shitty business owners giving the people access to a truck and they're attributing it to the government instead of saying there's shitty, awful business owners out there who will exploit an immigrant in order to drive their truck.

Speaker 4 And they're not bringing up those business owners at all who are breaking the law by giving their vehicle to someone who shouldn't be behind the wheel.

Speaker 4 They're blaming it on the government itself, saying

Speaker 4 they're forging these documents in some way. And that's not true.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 And he does bring up that one story of his friend's wife who is out biking who gets hit by a truck driven by an illegal immigrant i tried to look into that i couldn't find anything and that's that's a shame because that feels like a really important story to find he did tweet about this on the 15th of october um and said you know and he was saying that's why uh autonomous vehicles are good because there are safety standards in place and therefore that wouldn't happen yeah if it was a autonomous truck that it wouldn't hit someone in that kind of way but i can't find any reference to who it actually was um I'm going to keep looking at some point, but it feels like an interesting, it feels like an important story that would have got some serious coverage when it happened.

Speaker 4 So I'm surprised there isn't a record of it anywhere that I can find. All right, we're going to take a short break and then we're going to move on to our undercard.

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Speaker 2 That's r-u-b-r-i-k.com.

Speaker 2 And the undercard's banging. The undercard's filled with fights.

Speaker 4 All right, so for the undercard this time, of course, if you're going to have a person who runs Twitter on, you of course have to talk about anti-trans issues, which are everywhere on Twitter and everywhere in our essentially in our current government and culture.

Speaker 4 And so, this is going to be a piece about anti-trans rhetoric that's playing out in their conversation.

Speaker 4 There's only a few clips here, but it's important to point out. So, we're going to start out with what they call the social media chain of command.

Speaker 2 It's got to be fun, though. It's got to be fun to know that you essentially disrupted the entire social media chain of command because there was a very clear thing that was going on with social media.

Speaker 2 The government had infiltrated it. They were censoring speech.
And until you bought it, we really didn't know the extent of it. We kind of assumed that there was something going on.

Speaker 2 We had no idea that they were actively involved in censoring actual real news stories, real data, real scientists, real professors, silenced, expelled, kicked off the platform. Yeah.

Speaker 6 Wild. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 For telling the truth. For telling the truth.
Okay. Literally none of that happened.

Speaker 4 The person that, a person that was previously in government, who was running as a candidate for government at the time, Biden, asked to have images of his kid taken off the platform because it was essentially revenge porn.

Speaker 4 And they were posting naked images and sexual acts on Twitter. And they said, please take these things down.
They had no power whatsoever. He was just a person running for government.

Speaker 4 And then and now they're saying it's a government conspiracy to cover it up and when the government did ask people to take stuff down based on covid denialism it was because they were trying to help censor misinformation during a global pandemic Yeah, and this is how history gets rewritten in real time, I think.

Speaker 4 And I almost had an undercard from this conversation about the rewriting of history, the rewarping of kind of history.

Speaker 4 And instead, we went for this

Speaker 4 trans conversation, which I think is interesting. It's worth us kind of, you'll see why

Speaker 4 but i think we see this quite often on joe's show

Speaker 4 how many times has he just accepted a completely warped version of a timeline for example um it came up on the show that epstein died under biden's watch which didn't happen he died while trump was in office but joe just accepted this version of a timeline yeah um then we have the version of the timeline where joe was completely neutral going into the election until he sat down with trump and then he was so impressed by trump that he that swung it for him and he changed we see this kind of rewriting of history, this accepting of a warped timeline.

Speaker 4 And in this case, the warp timeline is that Elon Musk buying Twitter changed everything, it rescued free speech and even had a direct impact on the number of kids who are identifying or self-identifying as trans.

Speaker 4 And that's kind of where this leads into the trans conversation. Like immediately from this, we hear that Elon Musk, having taken over Twitter, has an appreciable effect on kids identifying as trans.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And here's that next clip.

Speaker 2 And I'm sure you've also, because I sent it to you, that chart that shows young kids, teenagers identifying as trans and non-binary literally stops dead when you bought Twitter and starts falling off a cliff when people are allowed to have rational discussions now and actually talk about it.

Speaker 6 Yes.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Okay, so I couldn't find this anywhere. I couldn't find a graph.
I did find an article. This is from the Williams Institute.
I'll put a link in the show notes.

Speaker 4 It's an article entitled, How Many Adults and Youth Identify as Transgender in the United States. And here's a quote from a quote.

Speaker 4 Compared to our prior estimates, the current estimates for adults have remained relatively steady regarding the percentage of who identify as transgender.

Speaker 4 And then they showed that there's more children actually coming out as transgender. So I don't know what they're talking about.

Speaker 4 I couldn't personally find it. Okay, so I did find it.
I did actually find what they're referring to here. Yeah.

Speaker 4 So this is the idea that Joe and others seriously believe that kids stopped identifying trans after Elon bought Twitter. And the argument being here that it was just a big social contagion.

Speaker 4 And once he changed that social media hierarchy, that chain of command, he interrupted that.

Speaker 4 And now no longer were kids getting the message from Twitter, I guess, that they're trans, which is an odd thing anyway, because there are age limits to even joining Twitter in the first place.

Speaker 4 And the number of kids that they were talking about who were trans were not at that age limit.

Speaker 4 So quite how Elon buying Twitter would arrest that amount of social contagion that they believe is obviously not true.

Speaker 4 Yeah, what I would believe they're referring to is an article published by Eric Kaufman in

Speaker 4 Unheard, on the website Unheard, in which he does actually make this

Speaker 4 kind of comparison. And here's a quote from that article.

Speaker 4 The Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression of FHIR, which conducts a large annual survey of US undergraduates, polled over 60,000 students in 2025.

Speaker 4 And my analysis, Eric Kaufman writes in Unheard, of the raw data shows that in that year, just 3.6% of respondents identified as a gender other than male or female.

Speaker 4 By comparison, the figure was 5.2% in 2024 and 6.8% in both 2022 and 2023. In other words, the share of trans-identified students has effectively halved in just two years.

Speaker 4 So that is what they're saying is evidence that if you draw a line of when Elon Musk on that graph bought Twitter, you can see the number of kids who are identifying as trans halves because of this evidence.

Speaker 4 Can you spot the issue here? I don't know that I'd want to be identified as trans right now. Well, so that's certainly one issue.
That's absolutely one issue.

Speaker 4 But I think the bigger issue is this is a graph of people who were, of respondents who don't identify as male or female. This was respondents who identify as a gender other than male or female.

Speaker 4 Trans people generally don't identify as a gender other than male or female. Trans women identify as women.

Speaker 4 Even if Joe and Elon disagree that they ought to or that they should be allowed to, they can't deny that they do. And if asked on a chart, if asked in a survey, that's how they would define.

Speaker 4 So showing a chart of people who are non-binary, don't see themselves as either male or female, is irrelevant. It says nothing about trans people.

Speaker 4 Now, also the data came from FHIR, which is a right-wing organization which is dedicated to try and muddy the water on these issues. And Kaufman took that raw data and has presented it here.

Speaker 4 He says, my analysis of the raw data. And the fact that he's using the raw data means that that data isn't weighted to be representative of the overall population

Speaker 4 so so someone called jacob ellieison re-ran the numbers here's a quote about that when they re-ran the numbers the trend line flipped entirely when you do actually include uh you waited to be representative that trend line flips entirely showing that the share of students identifying as neither male nor female had actually increased not decreased Kaufman's analysis, in other words, didn't reveal a cultural shift.

Speaker 4 It revealed statistical malpractice.

Speaker 4 So, Coffran's article was published on Unheard, which seems completely unbothered by the sloppy methodology, which ought to completely undermine their credibility on an issue like this, where

Speaker 4 unheard very clearly have an ideological blind spot. But that is what they're talking about.

Speaker 4 When Elon bought Twitter, people identifying as trans just dropped off a cliff, and we know that because of badly analyzed data on non-binary people. Yeah, that's great, great analysis here, Marsh.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 to remind people, the reason why they're talking about this is to say that free speech and conversation will convince people that they're crazy, that they are crazy and they're not trans and that stuff doesn't exist.

Speaker 4 And all you have to do is shine a light on it through Twitter and it will immediately eradicate. It'll disappear because it's not a real thing.

Speaker 4 They're trying to devalue trans people here and they're doing it by saying that they shouldn't exist and they don't exist.

Speaker 4 And the moment you point out how absurd it is, they immediately change their path. Yeah, that's what they said.

Speaker 4 Okay,

Speaker 4 now this is continuing on with that conversation.

Speaker 4 They start to talk about trans issues about an hour later. And this is a story that Elon relates.

Speaker 6 You know, like there was a friend of mine who was living in the San Francisco Bay Area. And

Speaker 6 they tried to trans his daughter.

Speaker 6 like to the point where the the the school like sent sent the police to his house to take his daughter away from him.

Speaker 6 Now that's going to radicalize you. Well,

Speaker 6 that's going to shake you out of your belief structure.

Speaker 2 So it was an activist at the school that was trying to do this?

Speaker 6 Yeah, the school and the state of California conspired to turn his daughter against him and make her take life-altering drugs that would have sterilized her

Speaker 6 and irreversible. And how old was she? I think 14, something like that.

Speaker 6 And he managed to talk the police out of taking his daughter away from him that day.

Speaker 6 And that night he got on a plane to Texas. Wow.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 a year after just being in

Speaker 6 a school in like greater Austin area,

Speaker 6 she went back to normal, meaning like

Speaker 6 it wasn't real. Right.

Speaker 2 Well, people are being much more open to that now. I mean, okay.

Speaker 4 They tried to trans his daughter. That's like a verb.
They tried to trans her.

Speaker 4 Who is this? You just say a person? You just say a person

Speaker 4 exists and they tried to do this thing. You also say that they tried to sterilize her? Like, what are you talking about? You're taking,

Speaker 4 we don't give life-altering drugs to people at 14. They give them puberty blockers.
That's normally what they give. That's not life-altering.
That doesn't sterilize the person.

Speaker 4 I literally don't believe that this happened. I do not believe that this is a true story.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I'd like to normally be to take things in good faith, but I struggle to accept this as a fully true story too. So he says that, you know, she went back to normal.

Speaker 4 Like, okay, yeah, suddenly being whisked off to Texas by a parent who doesn't believe that you're trans might persuade you to think this isn't the right time to come out the closet.

Speaker 4 I could understand this. But I fully, I just, I don't really believe that this actually happened to a friend of Elon's.

Speaker 4 So the story is that a trans activist at the school sent police around to his house in order to take his daughter away for him in order to be transitioned. That's not a power that the school has.

Speaker 4 It's not even power that a parent has with or without the consent, without either the consent of the other parent or a court order.

Speaker 4 You can't have one parent just making that decision without like the other parent being on board or a court deciding that they can.

Speaker 4 So it feels like this seems unlikely to be an accurate retelling of the story. Also, this friend of Elon's that this definitely happened to.

Speaker 4 Is this a different friend to the one whose wife was killed by an illegal immigrant truck driver and wouldn't have been had the truck been autonomously driven by Elon's AI?

Speaker 4 Or is it a different friend from the one who happened to take his kids to the murder library where a zombie, a drug zombie was?

Speaker 4 Elon seems to have a lot of friends who end up in ideologically convenient issues and circumstances for him to tell them the largest podcast in the world. Sure does.

Speaker 4 Sounds like when a comedian's like, I have a friend who, you know, and you're like, yeah, sure, I'm sure you have a friend who. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 Okay, so this next piece is about an opinion piece on being transgender is a social contagion.

Speaker 2 Wall Street Journal yesterday had that opinion piece that this whole trans thing, there's a lot of evidence is a social contagion. Absolutely.
And Colin Wright wrote that.

Speaker 2 And then he's getting death threats now, of course. And on Blue Sky, there's people talking about it exterminating him, which is one thing that you are allowed to say on Blue Sky, apparently.

Speaker 2 You're allowed to say horrible things about people say. possibly truthful things about this whole social contagion.

Speaker 2 Because that's what when you get nine kids that are in a friend group and they all decide to turn trans together, something's wrong. Something's wrong.
That's not statistically

Speaker 6 like here's

Speaker 6 like you can convince kids to do anything. You can convince kids to be a suicide bomber.
Right.

Speaker 2 So which is why they do with in some countries why they choose children to do that.

Speaker 6 Yes. Yeah.
You can train kids to be suicide bombers. And if you can train kids to be suicide bombers, you can convince them of anything.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Especially with enough positive enforcement and cultural enforcement.

Speaker 2 And the idea that that's not the case.

Speaker 6 Kids are malleable.

Speaker 6 The minds of youth are easily corrupted.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 An opinion piece that is anti-trans. Wow.
So brave. Just so brave to put that in the paper.
Again, this is Joe hearing stories on Twitter or something. And then it's just now a reality to him.

Speaker 4 And I want to point out really quickly the idea that we're trying to manipulate and warp young minds, that

Speaker 4 that's a projection, because because that's something that they do when they put Bibles in schools. Yeah.
And also I would say that it's not just young minds that are malleable and easily corrupted.

Speaker 4 We've seen here two men in their 50s whose minds are incredibly malleable

Speaker 4 to what they're reading online.

Speaker 4 So yeah, we've opinion piece about trans people saying that actually being trans is a social contagion. There's good data for that.
This is what Joe is putting forward. I found the opinion piece.

Speaker 4 It's from the Wall Street Journal. Here is a quote from it.
Recent data offer a mixed picture.

Speaker 4 An analysis of campus surveys by Eric Kaufman at the University of Buckingham and the Center for Heterodox Social Science found that the share of college students identifying as transgender fell 50% between 2023 and 2025.

Speaker 4 That's the quote about social contagion. That is the graph we've already talked about, but now it's coming up a second time under a second publication.

Speaker 4 So this is the Wall Street Journal referencing that graph on Unheard.

Speaker 4 I'll also point out that when I, very side note, I visited the Wall Street Journal in order to find this story.

Speaker 4 And when I did the link to the study where they said this uh data analysis by Eric Hoffman the link to the study in the citation went to and this is a direct quote of that link file colon three slashes c colon slash users slash mclean sierra slash downloads slash 25 dash btq dash america dot pdf

Speaker 4 yeah so sierra mclane she's an assistant editorial features editor at the wall street journal and i'm not saying that standards have slipped since at the paper since it was bought by rupert murdoch but she's published a version of the story that linked to a file on her hard drive.

Speaker 4 It wasn't on a server, it was just on her hard drive. It was amazing, dude.
Yeah, it was great.

Speaker 4 There's a second paragraph in the Wall Street Journal with more, so they, you know, Wall Street Journal, they've, they've cited the Eric Kaufman study that we've already talked about.

Speaker 4 There's a second paragraph on data.

Speaker 4 Psychologist Jean Twenger's analysis of the annual cooperative election study administered by YouGov found that transgender identification among 18 to 22 year olds declined by nearly 50% between 2022 and 2024.

Speaker 4 She concluded that it looked like the peak of trans identification is in the past. And that citation also opens with the Eric Kaufman graph from earlier.

Speaker 4 So she did the analysis because she saw Eric Kaufman's graph and has redone it based on that. Now she says that his graph actually comes to the right conclusion, but from the wrong data.

Speaker 4 And she goes off to find data that she says shows a very clear drop-off. But that drop-off, that data was also disputed in another analysis that the Wall Street Journal actually cite.

Speaker 4 That latter analysis says the recent reports of a sharp decline in transgender or non-binary identification may be unreliable due to problematic question wordings and reliance on statistical weights applied to a very small population.

Speaker 4 So overall, the data could be read as trans identification, trans identification as neither expanding in the sign of a social contagion, nor falling off in the sign of a bubble bursting.

Speaker 4 But actually, when you look at the data, it looks like it's plateauing. So if this was social contagion, we should be seeing a massive explosion up until Elon arrests it.

Speaker 4 If it is just a, if it's all the bubble bursting, it would drop off massively. What we're seeing is a fairly steady rate through other analysis that's been done.

Speaker 4 And that's a lot like, for example, the explosion in left-handedness,

Speaker 4 how that plateaued once we stopped trying to beat left-handedness out of kids and just accepted it. We aren't all left-handed now.

Speaker 4 The number of people who are left-handed just stayed at a plateau because no one had to pretend they were right-handed. That's what we're seeing here.

Speaker 4 The other thing to bear in mind as well, in these conversations, they constantly conflate being trans and being non-binary.

Speaker 4 And obviously, those things often go together, but they're not exactly the same thing.

Speaker 4 It's why that data around people who neither identify as male nor female was being used to illustrate the number of trans people when trans people will identify as male or will identify as female or may or may not.

Speaker 4 You know, people have a fluidity to that. So, when he says about nine kids in a particular group, how they all decide they're trans,

Speaker 4 it might be, I'd agree, it would be unlikely that nine kids in the small,

Speaker 4 the same small friendship group would be trans. It's unlikely that that's the case.
It's not completely out of the question.

Speaker 4 Maybe that's why they found each other as friends because they felt kind of kindred spirits there. But a random selection of kids, it's unlikely that a solid nine of them would turn out to be trans.

Speaker 4 Not that they offer any evidence that that's true, but let's take them at face value. That is true.
There's a group of kids out there and nine of them say they're trans.

Speaker 4 That's very different to, for example, a bunch of kids all rejecting binary gender norms because as kids rejecting gender like binary gender norms that might mean nothing more than exploring what fits them as as a kid that might it's not going to be puberty blockers it's not going to be surgery it might be as something it might not even be something as small as trying on a different name it might be in essence little more than seeing what pronouns feel right to you or experimenting with your wardrobe while kids figure out who they are and some of those kids if these nine kids really existed some of them might be non-binary non-binary.

Speaker 4 Some of them might decide, actually, now I've experimented and understood myself, I don't think I am non-binary. That's all fine.
That's just the normal exploration process.

Speaker 4 And the thing to remember in all of this is that trans people don't want to persuade cis kids that they're trans because living as a gender that doesn't feel right to you isn't a good thing.

Speaker 4 And trans people are the exact community of people who know that experience best and wouldn't want it for people. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Okay, this next clip, they're talking about how gay people don't like trans people.

Speaker 2 You're also seeing a lot of pushback from gay and lesbian people that are saying, like, hey, if someone's

Speaker 4 including me.

Speaker 6 Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
The LGBTQ, you know, it's like, wait a second, why are we being included all the time in this situation? Exactly.

Speaker 2 Exactly. Especially when, you know, like my friend Tim Dylan's talked about this.

Speaker 2 He's like, it's really homophobic because you're taking these gay kids and you're telling them, like, hey, you're not gay. You're actually a girl.
Yes. And, you know,

Speaker 2 go make it so that you can never have an orgasm again and you'll be happy.

Speaker 6 Like, yeah. It's fucked up.

Speaker 6 Permanent mutilation, permanent castration of kids.

Speaker 4 I think

Speaker 6 we should look at

Speaker 6 anyone who permanently castrates a kid as like right up there with Joseph Mengle. Yeah.
I mean, they're mutilating children. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And it's thought of as being kind.
And the thing is, would you rather have a live daughter or a dead son?

Speaker 6 That's the line they use.

Speaker 2 Yeah, which is not supported by any data.

Speaker 6 No, it's not.

Speaker 4 We've cited this before, but YouGov did a 2023 survey on the issue of trans acceptance among lesbian, gay, and bisexual people. And what they found was there is limited,

Speaker 4 while there is negativity towards trans people in the wider community, there's limited negativity towards trans people among the cisgender gay, lesbian, and bisexual Britons in particular.

Speaker 4 Only 8% of that group professed to having a negative view of trans people, compared to 75% who said they had a positive view of trans people, and 17% said they had a neutral view.

Speaker 4 Of those, cisgender lesbians and bisexual women in particular are likely to have positive feelings towards trans people.

Speaker 4 84% of the cisgender lesbians and bi women that were interviewed in this survey had a positive view. 66 to 68% said they had a very positive view of trans people.

Speaker 4 And that mirrors national polling, which shows that women generally are more likely to hold pro-trans views than men.

Speaker 4 So is it true that there's loads of gay and bisexual people who hate trans people, who don't want to be lumped in with trans people? I don't think it's so.

Speaker 4 I think the majority actually are way more accepting than straight people are. Those numbers are a little bit old.

Speaker 4 It's 2023 and they're for the UK, but they certainly do not tell a story of widespread anti-trans sentiment among gay communities.

Speaker 4 This idea that most gay people dislike trans people is a complete fiction people tell themselves in order to reassure themselves that they're not bigoted when they are. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And look, what kind of world do these people think they live in? Who's trying to convince people that they are trans?

Speaker 4 If this was like a huge movement, there would be way more people like that in our population. They also say like people who castrate kids, no one castrates kids.
Okay.

Speaker 4 The surgery on children is very, very, very rare. And it's top surgery, right? So it'll be top surgery.
It'll be mastectomies. There were 282 cases of it in 2021.

Speaker 4 That's out of 725,000 trans kids that age. That's three, 10,000ths of a percent of people go as far as that.
And that's very, almost certainly because their medical provider suggested it.

Speaker 4 They go on to talk about the suicide rate of trans kids, and they try to downplay it. We've covered this in previous, in previous

Speaker 4 episodes, and it's really just based on faulty studies and how there was a Swedish survey that essentially said that trans kids were more likely to kill themselves than normal kids.

Speaker 4 And like, yes, of course that's true. Yes, it wasn't trans people more generally.
It wasn't kids. It was

Speaker 4 trans people after surgery still had a higher level of suicidal ideation than cis people.

Speaker 4 But whenever it gets brought up, it gets brought up as if to say that you have a higher level of suicidal ideation than before surgery. And it found the exact opposite of that.

Speaker 4 It's constantly brought up as a gotcha in this kind of way. And they do it again here.
This is the last clip in our undercard. Now, this is talking about people who die during sex change operations.

Speaker 6 And this is preventing you from. Actually, a lot of kids die

Speaker 6 with these sex change operations. They die at the number of deaths on the operating table, people don't hear about this.
A lot of the kids, because

Speaker 6 we don't really actually have the technology to make this work. So a bunch of the times the kids just die in the sex change operations.

Speaker 4 Jesus Christ.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it's demented. It should be viewed as like, you know,

Speaker 6 like evil Nazi doctor stuff. Well, that's why it's like real Nazi, not the bullshit, fake Nazi stuff.

Speaker 2 It's crazy that even pushing back against something that seems like fundamentally, logically very easy to argue, the old Twitter would ban you forever.

Speaker 6 Yes.

Speaker 2 That's how crazy a social contagion can get when it completely defies logic, victimizes children, does something that makes no sense, not supported by data, all connected to this ideology that trans is good, we've got to save trans kids, protect trans kids.

Speaker 6 Yeah, and what I want to emphasize is that the save trans kids thing is a lie.

Speaker 6 If you castrate kids and trans them, the probability of suicide increases, it does not decrease, it substantially increases.

Speaker 6 The studies have done that I've seen, the risk of suicide triples if you trans kids. So you're not saving them, you're killing them.

Speaker 6 Moreover, during the sex change operation, there are many deaths that occur during the sex change operation.

Speaker 2 Jesus Christ. It's just crazy that this is a real issue.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it's a nightmare fever dream, and people are finally waking up from it.

Speaker 4 I just get so disgusted when Joe calls this a social contagion. Like, it's so disgusting that Joe is like, oh, these people who finally feel

Speaker 4 brave enough to let themselves be who they are, that's a social contagion. That's genuinely genuinely disgusting that he's calling it that.
That's genuinely disgusting.

Speaker 4 And I could not find a single anything that suggests that there's a huge risk in trans surgery of death. I couldn't find that.
It feels like he's making that up. Yeah, so I agree.

Speaker 4 I think he is making this up. I agree about the social contagion thing, too.

Speaker 4 I think Joe is comfortable saying social contagion now because of all the Wall Street Journal stuff that we've just covered that he thinks proves that.

Speaker 4 If it dropped off after Twitter, then clearly it was a source of contagion.

Speaker 4 So it just shows how the manipulated data put out through pretty authoritative sources can have a genuine effect here, having a genuine effect on Jaw.

Speaker 4 In terms of the risk in trans surgery, I found a study.

Speaker 4 This is a study from the American Journal of Obstetric Gynecology from 2023, study called Postoperative Adverse Events Following Gender Affirming Vaginoplasty.

Speaker 4 And what it found was this was a retrospective cohort study of trans women who underwent vaginoplasty between 2011 and 2019. They had 488 cases that were eligible for inclusion in this study.

Speaker 4 They looked at them following surgery and what they found is not one single death in the 30-day period after surgery or around surgery.

Speaker 4 So is it true that there were people who are regularly dying during surgery? Not according to this study. There is no evidence of that at all.

Speaker 4 What they found is 27 of the cases required further surgical interventions in that 30-day period and 46 had wound infections and things, mostly in cases where there was a comorbidity, where any surgery may well have come with those kind of infections and complications.

Speaker 4 But even with that taken into account, that's less than 10% of the cases experiencing any complications and fewer than 5% requiring follow-up surgery, which isn't bad going given the extent of the surgery.

Speaker 4 Few extensive surgeries have such a high kind of rate of success without further kind of follow-ups and stuff. So yeah, he doesn't know what he's talking about here.

Speaker 4 He is either making this up or recounting things he thinks he's seen and recounting with such confidence that he must know what he's talking about.

Speaker 4 You know, this idea of suicide going up after surgery, that's based on the Swedish study that I was talking about. That doesn't compare before and after surgery.

Speaker 4 It compares after surgery with cis people who never needed surgery. That's the ideation he's talking about.

Speaker 4 So he doesn't know what he's talking about, but he sounds so confident and he's saying it so confidently. So he must be onto something.
He must have a clue what he's talking about.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, he's saying that they castrate him, you don't.

Speaker 4 They use puberty blockers sometimes in children. Um, they self-harm, that's just not true.

Speaker 4 Uh, they, you know, major surgery has risks, you could die on the table, that's that risks are very, very low. He's just repeating lie after lie after lie on the largest podcast in the world.

Speaker 6 Let's wrap it up with that.

Speaker 6 Thank you, sir.

Speaker 2 Appreciate you very much. You're a beautiful person.

Speaker 4 All right, Marsh, here we are.

Speaker 4 end of the show is there anything good in this i think we're out of time i i mean we've got through quite a lot i mean i really i had so much to say about so much but i think we're out of time it's been such a long shot it's been such a long show so out of time uh if you got to the end of these two full podcasts and you thought we were going to have something good to say after they spewed this must infer much misinformation you're probably listening to the wrong show yeah i mean the the one thing i will say is this was a three-hour interview and we've seen joe do three and a half four four-hour interviews, and it wasn't that.

Speaker 4 So maybe, maybe that's fine. Maybe that's the best that I could do.
He could have gone longer and it would have been worse. All right.
Well, that's it for the show this week.

Speaker 4 Remember that you can access more than a half hour of bonus content every single week, or you'll get the last one last week for as little as a dollar an episode for subscribing at patreon.com slash norogan.

Speaker 4 Meanwhile, you can hear more from me at cognitive dissonance at citation needed and more from Marsh, Skeptics of K, and the Skeptic Podcast.

Speaker 4 We're going to be back next week for a little more, the No Rogan experience.

Speaker 1 if you love the show please rate and share it if you want to get in touch with us become a patron or check out the show notes go to no rogan.com k-n-o-w-ro-o-g-a-n.com