‘The Last of Us’ S2, E4 Precap: ‘Take On Me’ and Jeffrey Wright’s Menace With Kate Herron

Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast feed.

I'm Jorda Robinson.

I'm Rob Mahoney.

We're here today to talk to you about The Last of Us episode 4, and we're very excited because,

as has been the case the last couple of weeks, we've got a really fun interview this week with the director of the episode, Kate heron um i'm huge kate heron fan kate who uh

was the like overarching creative director of season one of loki one of the best episodes of television that disney has been uh able to produce and so kate brought her extremely talented eye to this episode of television so we have to talk to her about that about caterpillars and horses oh my it's a great it's a great time uh so if you thought we didn't get the caterpillar scoop you're sadly mistaken You went like deep on the caterpillar lore, it's pretty great.

What is one to do when presented with the caterpillar in center frame, Joe?

It's not even sneaking around.

It's true, it's true.

Okay, so as is always the case on this feed, what we're doing with this particular episode is we're going to do a little discussion about the episode, including some of your emails, and then we'll have the interview with Kate, and then we'll have a spoiler section that's sort of like a look ahead.

I think this week, especially, I want to look ahead at what's coming next week because

it's a lot of big stuff coming.

So

that is the plan.

Also, elsewhere on the feed, Rob and I continue to scratch our heads and feel our feelings about your friends and neighbors.

So we'll be back doing more of that this week.

And Jodi and Charles are covering the rehearsal.

And once again, we're getting all of your emails and I don't understand any of them, but it seems like you guys are really enjoying Jodi and Charles, and that's the best because they're the best.

As do we, as does everybody, we love them.

Okay, so

that's a good reminder that you can email us or Jodi and Charles or anyone who's podcasting on Prestige TV at prestige TV at spotify.com.

But more pertinently for our purposes, Joe, you can email us about The Last of Us at thisisyourbrain on shrooms at gmail.com.

And please do.

They've been coming in.

People are feeling lots of things about this particular stage of the show.

I think a lot of really strong, powerful reactions given and understood.

with the subject matter that we're wading into now.

Like a lot of, a lot of really important moments from the game that I think are being crystallized on the show in really, really beautiful fashion.

I want to ask you sort of more broadly your feeling at this point in the season.

Before we get there, just a few last things.

Number one, I haven't mentioned in a while.

By the way, you can watch these episodes

and you might want to right now because Rob is rocking a like apocalyptic beard.

So you might want to check that out.

Not, we should say, not entirely by choice.

We haven't really talked about this on the pod, but your guy broke his arm, broke his hand, really, a couple weeks ago.

It hasn't been going great, but we're getting through it, you know?

Like, what are we to do in the apocalypse, Joe, but put one foot in front of the other,

scavenge for every little resource we can come upon, and also let the beard grow long.

You got to really joel out.

So, um, one foot in front of the other because can't put one hand in front of the other because his hand is in a cache.

Why would you do that?

Hopefully, not for very long.

You're just taunting me now.

Almost over, I think.

Um, I can't type over here, and you're making hand jokes.

Ringer TV on YouTube is, and in the Spotify app, is where you can check that out.

Also, we had a couple emails asking us about our plans for Poker Face, which is one of the first shows that Rob and I ever covered on this feed.

Season two is this week, I believe.

We are not diving into it right now because I don't know if we've mentioned it, but Rob has broken his hand.

The NBA playoffs are going on, and

Andor is reinventing television over on the House of Our Feed.

So we have a lot going on.

Unfortunately, we won't be able to get to Poker Face this week.

Our hope is that we can get to to it soon.

We're not exactly sure what our plan is, but we have not forgotten you,

Pokerface.

We will hit it in some capacity.

Not to overpromise, but look, it's a sentimental favorite for us, Joe.

We got to revisit our roots.

Another question we've been getting from folks in the email front is, what is a pre-cap?

Because these podcast episodes are marked as precaps.

I would say just don't worry about it too much.

Precap is like a little bit of internal language for us.

There's a lot of the Last of Us podcasts being produced at theringer.com right now.

And so ours is being labeled as a pre-cap.

Don't worry about it too much.

But if you want a definition, I would say the spoiler section at the end of the episode where we talk about what's coming up, that makes it a little bit more pre than a regular recap.

So that's that's what's going on there.

But I would, I would not over

overstress about the label of pre-cap.

You're not missing anything if you don't know what it means.

Joe, would you say we are more pre or more cap?

Oh, we're definitely in cap.

I would say we lean heavy cap.

Yeah.

Maybe, maybe pre and then cap in all caps.

Emphasis cap, underlying cap.

That's kind of our vibe over here.

Wow.

It's like a real new Avengers question from you.

Okay.

And then also our listener, Todd, wrote in.

This is just like a

backward-looking question, so I thought I would do it before we get into episode-specific questions, asking,

in terms of the bite mark that Ellie gets at the beginning of the season,

which she hides by cutting over the bite on her abdomen and making it into a little like wishbone-shaped scar instead.

And then she is in the hospital being treated for damage to her ribs for three months.

And that bite happened a mere

day before, the day before.

So I guess Todd's question was,

is slicing over the bites really good enough to disguise what that is from doctors who are paying close attention to a young woman's abdomen for three months of critical care.

I don't have a great answer for that.

Maybe we should ask Dr.

Robbie if he wants to write in and let us know, or

any of the pit heads might have some feelings on this.

But any thoughts on this, Rob?

Here's the thing.

I think in the wake of the attack on Jackson, it could slip past a,

you know, like...

an ad hoc doctor's eye upon first glance, given everything that's going on.

We saw the bodies, they don't have electricity.

Okay, maybe a couple days it kind of goes without being noticed.

Yeah, and then at no point, a nurse walks and is like, Doesn't that kind of look like a bite mark?

Look a little like a bite marker.

Doesn't that look a little toothy?

Yeah,

I take the point.

I think they probably would, to be honest with you.

No, you make a great point.

They were a little busy at the beginning, but you know, we are medical experts now that we've watched a season of the pit.

I concur.

We probably think that they would have noticed, but they didn't.

And here we are.

Okay.

Really, it's a statement on the medical care in Jackson, right?

Like, you're the start of a society, but really, do any of us have sufficient medical care in our lives?

Can we ever really believe in the medical industrial complex around us?

Or are those assholes in Jackson just trying to push drugs on us like everybody else?

Big Pharma wins again, Joe.

Wow.

Anti-vaxarob has entered the chat here.

That's not what I said.

It's the beard.

I'm just a man who's been watching a lot of the NBA playoffs.

And I don't know.

I mean, look, I know you're not locked in on that world, Joe.

But the commercial consumption, I would say, is 40 to 60% commercials for prescription drugs for Crohn's disease.

So I'm just like, I'm big pharma pilled right now in a way that I don't appreciate.

Wow, America's digestion is effed up is what we've learned from the NBA.

Okay.

I mean, this is a good question to ask as we head into next week's episode.

Again, we're going to save this for the spoiler talk, but we're headed towards a hospital in Seattle.

So let's see, how is medical care care in seattle right now is a question we can ask ourselves is the grey's anatomy crew uh still at work in the mushroom populace

season 53 ongoing let's find out okay um

also we got we got some questions about

on in our coverage of the show we're a late in the in the week episode a podcast episode and also we're doing a lot of compare and contrast with the video game and that's just sort of what we decided would be a little different about our pod is that we are talking about the video game as an adaptive adaptive source.

But I would say, honestly, no more than I was like, well, in Shogun, page 267.

So this is just like a different kind of adaptation, but this is the source material we're dealing with.

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I did want to ask you,

as a lover of the game, Rob, which is like one of my favorite things to ask you about,

where are you big picture with how this season is going?

We're more than halfway through.

There have been some changes, some startlingly faithful recreations.

How are you feeling about this

season of television?

I'm feeling very good.

I I feel like they've nailed all the biggest stuff and some of the smallest personal stuff that I wanted them to get right.

And it really feels like they have.

And at the same time, there's been enough adaptive swerving where I'm a little wrong-footed by certain characters being in certain places, certain circumstances being different, and wondering, like, what is this going to mean for our overall story, right?

Like, you have a sense of where the beats are going to go, but they could unfold in dramatically different fashion based on who's in the room for those sorts of things.

So, I'm both really relieved to have some of the big stuff out of the way, especially kind of the big spoiler with Joel's death earlier in the season and getting through that in a way that felt faithful but interesting and getting Caitlin Deaver in that moment and getting like really breathing a different kind of life into a story that I care a lot about.

So, I've been overall thrilled with this season so far.

The

you know, trolling through the subreddit, as I liked, okay, let's just say, like

bottom line, the subreddits around this game and this show have been

a fairly noxious place to be.

And I've gotten pretty good at just sort of skipping past the things that feel like they're in bad faith or just complaining about the same thing week to week or whatever.

That's really kind of uninteresting to me personally.

I'm just imagining you crawling through the opening of the subway tunnel and then just finding your way into the Reddit hordes.

Yeah, exactly.

So

here's me in one single subway car that's not full of rotting bodies.

And I will say that one

pushback I saw again and again about this episode specifically from people who are liking the season so far as an adaptation of a game that they enjoy was the

Ellie Dina sort of immunity reveal into pregnancy reveal into a hookup scene that they felt maybe that it came too fast.

It just felt like a lot going on together.

I really liked it.

I liked a way not to spoil our chat with Kate, but at one point she described this episode as a pressure cooker.

And so if this scene is like sort of the release of that, of that building, mounting pressure, and it was just like, it was all building up to this.

And does it all feel like a lot to have happened in the span of just a few minutes of screen time?

Sure.

But also

it felt to me like...

The

hookup,

the sexual content that we get here is a direct result of these big confessional moments.

It's all of a piece, not rushed, but all linked together.

What do you think, Rob?

It is a lot.

Like, unquestionably, that's a lot of information to absorb and for the characters to absorb in those moments.

I agree with you that it does, it does work for me, and I think it makes sense emotionally in a sort of all the truths are tumbling out sort of way.

It's like once, once you take the one rock out of the dam, all of a sudden everything starts kind of pouring through.

Yeah, that part worked for me, and I do love that idea of Ellie and Dina's relationship kind of starting in earnest from that sense of relief, from the sense of relief that, like, I thought I was going to lose you.

And now I, now that we're kind of relatively safe for a second, I can say the thing that was on my mind that I was just flashing through as soon as I thought you were going to die.

Like, that's a really powerful idea that I think does work.

Is it a little bit different?

Sure.

Does it still play here?

I think absolutely.

But I think it speaks to something with The Last of Us that is so delicate and is a reason why you'll see people have a moment where it's like, oh, this feels a little too on the nose.

Oh, this feels a little too much.

And this is a problem that's not unique to the show.

It happens with the game as well.

I would say it even happens for a lot of people with these sorts of big musical moments, like the take on me moment in this episode or the future days version of that in the game.

You know, like these, these moments when characters do and address things in like such an emotionally direct way, in a sense, right?

They're not saying the thing, but they're saying the lyrics that say the thing.

Yeah.

I think for a certain audience, that's always going to be a little cloying, a little like it,

maybe not full cringe, but like it's hitting that instinct for them a little bit.

And then for people like me, I'm just fucking swimming in it.

You know, like I'm enjoying those moments.

And for a one, for something like this, I really like the kind of emotional palette of everything you have there for Ellie and Dina.

of the relief, of the danger, of that pressure cooker, of them finally getting to say the things out loud that they've been waiting to say.

You know, all of the secrets coming out, crushes included, to me feels like a really powerful kind of release on this stage of the story and now we get to move on to the next one where deli and deli dina and dina and ellie are just totally different people to each other it's the burving of uh the world i really hope everybody's talking about deli um okay so i think what's interesting about that i think i really like the point you made there and i think what's interesting about that

Again, not to spoil the Kate interview, I'm going to leave her answer to this, but you were the one who brought up this idea of Dina and Ellie feeling a bit softer,

more girlish to you, sort of is

a word you used.

A lot has been made among, and we'll talk about this a bit more in the spoiler section.

Um, Ellie's reaction to Dina's pregnancy, which is a quite a positive, holy shit, I'm gonna be a dad sort of moment.

Um, and then also, I saw this really interesting um idea.

I can't remember if it was in an email we got or in that subreddit that I crawled my way through, but um,

this idea of vulnerability.

Ellie and Dina is more vulnerable because at this point in the game, um, we have watched Ellie and Dina kill so many people.

We watched them take out two WLF soldiers in the TV station.

But if you're playing the game,

you're wandering around Seattle for much longer on this first day and you are just...

stabbing the shit out of so many people's necks.

It's a very stabby game.

The idea that Ellie and Dina can like sort of barely handle,

maybe that's underestimating, handle two WLF soldiers.

Yeah.

yeah while in that very same sequence of the game has you as Ellie effortlessly killing 10 of them so like what does that do is that a good change to you is that interesting to you to think of them as like these reminding us all these are 19 year old girls out of their depth inside of a situation that they ran into and didn't understand the the entirety of yeah i mean the contrast is what makes a character like ellie so compelling it's what makes a character like abby so compelling too in her way right like the world that these people have been thrust into isn't fair, doesn't make sense.

They should never be asked to like fight for their lives on a daily basis against infected or WLF or whoever else besides.

Like it's not fair and it's not right.

And yet, this is a world where in order to cope with that, Ellie and Dina turn who was the first person you ever killed into a road trip game, right?

Like there has to be a casual indifference in order to just process and live in this world.

Like you have to be accustomed to a certain level of violence, even if that's walking into a TV station in this episode and seeing, I would say these characters like really shocked for maybe the first time in a while, at least, as far as like the disemboweled hanging corpses that the Seraphites have left behind.

Like there are, there are levels to this stuff, and clearly that is on another level.

But knifing a couple of WLF guys in the neck, clearly fair game for just like a pleasant weekend activity for these two.

I think that's interesting.

I mean, I've been thinking a lot about this, the way this particular episode is laid out, leaving the game aside, much to the relief of some people but like the way this episode is laid out thinking about we we traveled with ellie across the country in season one we know that ellie has gone through a lot of traumatic shit yes um you know between her mom and riley and and joel and cannibals yeah david david cannibals and all the things she sees so it's not like she's lived this sheltered existence at all

But there is something that feels very sort of passage of life for these two.

I think the age is so interesting.

19-year-old girls who leave the fairly relatively sheltered existence.

They're going to college, you're saying, Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

They're either going to college, or if you prefer not, they're moving to the big city for the first time in their life, right?

So we're leaving home and we're going to Seattle, right?

And whether that's for college or like, you know, to work at a coffee shop, who cares?

Like, we're, we're going to have a big city adventure.

That adventure involves probably like a little bit more disemboweling than they had hoped.

But when we're in records, we're in record stores, we're in a theater, we're in a TV station, it's like a real culture-forward sort of location for this section.

And so I was just thinking about that, like, obviously, that's, I don't mean to be cutesy in that, but, you know, it does feel like

a coming of age experience

with a side of a lot of death for these young women.

What do you think about that?

Well, I think especially relative to the first game and where our story starts, very much like East Coast to West Coast.

And in this case, sort of like what, Mountain West into like Pacific Northwest proper.

Like, I mean, the difference between Jackson and Seattle as metropolitan entities is quite stark.

Right.

And so, seeing the difference in the skyline, the roads, like what you're surrounded by, it's not that they've never seen a city before, but they're experiencing a post-apocalyptic city in a totally different way.

And I think that's where you see Ellie having to kind of get up to speed as far as what that means, right?

Like, she wants to just kind of charge in guns and blazing as soon as it's clear that the WLF is here.

Right.

And thank goodness, Dina, our logistical queen, is here to say, maybe don't do it in the middle of daylight on horseback,

clip-clopping all your way, you know, up to the building where snipers can kind of just take shots at you.

So it's like they're having to get acclimated to all of the realities of city life.

I think kind of like the big open sight lines, clearly these like cultural centers that are, that are different, but also are like such a fun part of this episode in terms of just like the found ephemera of a dead world.

Like all of all, like, I mean, I just love like an overgrown tank to begin with, and that's post-apocalyptic.

But even when we get back into the things that are very pre-breakdown Seattle and seeing like all of these remnants of what Seattle used to be, and they're kind of like, what are they interested in, and what are they not?

What do they walk right past?

And what do they clock?

And what do they ignore?

Uh, to me, it's kind of an extension of that idea of the violence, right?

It's like, what is notable to the people in this world?

Uh, bodies hanging from the ceiling, notable.

Uh, you know, rainbows on the wall, what's up with that?

Like, can we talk about that for a second?

But you're also just walking by every like all the millions of people's passing lives and all of the relics that were left behind by them.

It's just like, oh, that's just some more stuff.

That's so interesting.

I think it might be the Capitol Hill rainbow moment that I was just getting, and I don't know why, because there really was no murder or disemboweling, as far as I know in my experience moving to a city after college for the first time.

But when I moved to San Francisco after college, having grown up right right across the bridge from San Francisco, but there's just a difference about like living inside of a city like that and just

how eye-opening it is to be inside of and not just like,

not just as a sort of

coastal elite liberal experience or anything like that, but it's like.

all the people.

And I don't know, there's just like something about the fact that there are more people here than they expected and just sort of like more going on than they expected.

So I don't know if that's like a too pat and cutesy for the horrors of what's on display here, but we are in a transformational,

you know, there's a reason that in addition to,

you know, the moth motif that we get in here that

is associated with death, it's also associated with transformation.

And so this is like a very,

you know, there's this question.

I guess a question that I saw once again in the grimy corners of the subreddit is like, is LE reading as mature enough for something like this?

And I'm like, well, I actually think

people are forgetting what it is like to be 19.

I don't have a firm grip on it, obviously, but like, you're not actually that mature as a 19-year-old, even if you've been toughened by the apocalypse.

And like, this is, we are on a journey.

We're on, we're not even halfway through this journey because this is only one of two seasons adaptation of the game, but we are on a real rapid maturation,

leaving childish things behind journey for Ellie inside of this story.

And so I think it is important that she enters in this, like, we're playing road trip games on the way to Seattle space.

Do you notice?

Well, especially for a character that's been kind of living in the gap between how mature she actually is and how mature she thinks she is.

Relatively, like Ellie is very much like caught in that zone where she's constantly trying to do too much in the way that teenagers and young 20-somethings are often trying to do a little bit too much, but in this case, she doesn't really have a choice, at least by her standards.

Like, she needs to, as she understands it, avenge Joel.

Like, she needs to go after Abby, ready or not.

And she's not going to wait for, you know, the council to come around on a referendum.

Like, she's not going to wait for more resources.

She's not going to wait for more people.

Like, she's going to try to make it work on her own because she believes that she can.

And I guess we're going to find out if she's right.

And there's also this added layer that comes inside of this episode, which is,

holy shit, I'm going to be a a dad.

Holy shit, not only do I have to think about my revenge or, you know, my, my personal injured feelings, but

myself as a caretaker, in the caretaker role, in the Joel role.

There's been a lot of, you know, people have their own feelings about that line.

I really like it.

But no matter what, Ellie's sitting there and thinking about,

you know, she lost her mom before she ever knew her mom.

So she doesn't really have a lot of maternal things to think about.

But like, what does it mean to be a dad?

And this is something that Craig

and Neil really drove home as something that they were wanting to focus on this season, which is like, what is it like to be a child, someone's child, to have a parent versus being a parent?

Right.

So Ellie moving from.

in her own mind in this moment, moving from this space of, I had a dad and he was taken from me to, I'm going to be a parent.

I'm going to be a dad.

I'm going to be caring for someone.

And what does that transformation moment do to your priorities or should it do to your priorities?

Yes.

Like, how does it change your mindset when you consider yourself to be a caretaker?

And you can already see it shifting just with the knowledge that Dina is pregnant, right?

It goes from, this is a trip we're on together and I'm so grateful to have you with me to, are you sure you don't want to just stay here?

Like, are you sure?

Are you sure that you want to come with me for this next part when we're going through what looks like an act of war zone, basically?

And so I imagine Ellie's going to be wrestling with that the rest of the way here.

Like, like, she has changed fundamentally in terms of how she conceives herself.

And I mean, we see Dina going through a version of that kind of journey, too.

Like, this is a huge episode about identity and about self-categorization.

And Ellie seeing herself as a dad is such a fun new wrinkle and part of that, but it's one that.

As any parent will tell you, and we're clearly qualified on these matters, Joe.

Absolutely.

As two parents,

a dramatic, transformative experience, just to have the knowledge that it will be or could be happening, much less than it actually does.

It's interesting because on the flip side of that, I want to talk about Isaac, who we meet inside of this episode as played by Jeffrey Wright, who also played the character.

Sorry, it's Jeffrey motherfucking right.

That's his name.

Sir Jeffrey motherfucking right, OBE,

who also played the character inside of the game.

And there is something we, the way in which we meet him, in both cases, he is in this, and I, the word i used in talking to mallory about it was like almost a vuncular role

disturbingly obviously hopefully your uncle never uh burned you with high-end cookware but i think meeting him and having him sort of like giving burton as we meet him in the in the truck the the young wlf member who he sort of uh sorry the young federal member who he conversed the wlf giving him that option giving him this teaching moment essentially and then also in talking to Malcolm, the Seraphite that he is torturing, you know, he says stuff like son.

He's sort of also in this.

So thinking about him and thinking about him as

we don't quite know the nature of their relationship yet, but we know that Abby sort of like studied under the WLF since we met her.

So thinking about Isaac, again, we don't know the full nature of it yet, but like as the Joel to Abby, the way that Joel was to Ellie, so what is it like to study under, to be brought up from 14, you know, to 19 to older under

having lost her actual father under a person like Isaac?

What is what is Isaac's sense of his responsibility to the young people that he's recruiting to his cause, et cetera, et cetera?

What do you think about that, Rob?

Well, especially a character who's just a bundle of contradictions in the same way that Joel is, right?

Like who ultimately like is, and you can even see it kind of within the members of the WLF WLF that we see at the various points in time in this episode of the differences of opinion on

is it okay that we're torturing this guy?

Like, is this, is this

how we would use this cookware?

Could we just have a crepe night instead?

What do you think?

I mean, it would be beautiful.

And look, those things come out quickly.

I think you could feed the whole army crepe-wise if you get enough cooks on that line.

I think it's very doable for a cook of Isaac's reputation, if nothing else.

But this is where I'm really glad to have Jeffrey Wright, the actor, as opposed to Jeffree Wright, the voice actor, who I have tremendous respect for the voice work that Jeffree Wright does, but there's something so different about having him on screen and like the way he commands and ultimately like the way he pulls you in.

Like he has as a performer so much of like a smartest person in the room energy.

Like you're so compelled and so sold by what he says.

And beyond that, I think there's like a weariness to him that's like, he's not only smart, but he's like, he's seen your shit before.

Like he's met people like you and he knows your deal.

And he feels like kind of two steps ahead of you in that way.

And he can portray that with a voice.

And he does in the game very well.

But it's so different to see him here because of like all of those different layers of Isaac are just coming out in a totally different way.

And I'm loving it so far.

I did.

I mean, I think that's an important distinction, especially like if you, if you look at footage from the game, it's not like he, um, that Isaac.

I don't like necessarily recognize Jeffree Wright's features inside of that character.

Um, I, I feel like I have had some pushback from the gaming community, though, of like

wanting to make a distinction between like voice acting like the way that Petro Pascal does on the set of The Mandalorian.

Wait, wait, wait.

He's on the set every day.

I don't know what you're talking about.

Versus like what Ashley Johnson and Troy Baker, et cetera, et cetera, did, which is a more fully embodied performance inside of us.

Mocap, etc.

And like, I mean, The Last of Us is a very involved performance as voice capture goes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

one thing i think is really funny and and you know i love to i love to talk to gamer rob mahoney but more than that i love to talk to foodie uh rob mahoney yeah um how do you feel about the fact that

craig mason who is also a a cooking enthusiast uh

wrote a cooking enthusiast monologue uh for one of the scariest people we've met in the game so far in the show so far how do you feel about that i mean just when i thought the show couldn't be bore for me joe yeah your community We're talking about Moviel.

We're going copper.

Like, we're really getting into the dynamics of this cookware.

And I have to say, like, as I know you and Mal kind of waded into like what luxury looting experience would you partake in?

I think I would be going after the high-end cookware.

I think.

Are you going to William Sonoma?

Are you going to Sir Latabe?

Where are you going?

Oh, my God.

I mean, like, honestly, William Sonoma is a good one.

The problem is, like, once you lose the ability to research properly, then what brands do you really trust?

That's when it becomes really, really difficult.

And that's where I think in doubt, go French.

Like

this is why Moviel is like, okay, that's the first one you're grabbing.

Like, it just makes all the sense in the world.

Mallory and I were looking at the price points

of the gums and pans last night because there's a sale going on.

She got served.

A sale.

Heavy air quotes on sale.

Exactly.

I don't know if you and I talked about this, but Mallory got like during White Lotus, Mallory got served a bunch of, like she gets served Joel's jacket.

She gets served Instagram ads for Lockheed shirt.

They really have her locked in as as an HBO Sunday night viewer.

So she got served at a Williams Sonoma Cookwear ad on Instagram yesterday.

And I let her know that they're having a mobile.

I'm not going to buy any Mobile, but like, I let her know they're having a Mobile sale.

And yeah, the entire set

is like in the $5,000 range.

Like, that's what we're talking about.

So, um, and as is mentioned, requires a lot of upkeep, a lot of polishing.

Souring, yeah.

Like, honestly, this is like cast iron is enough work for me.

I don't know that I need copper.

Like, I think I'm good ultimately, but I appreciate the ambition.

And I will say, there's just no actor I want delivering this monologue about high-end cookware more than Jeffree Wright.

Like,

perfect match.

I feel like someone, if not Movie L, then like all Clad or someone should hire Jeffree Wright to do some high-end cookware ads for them, you know?

If we want to get this podcast sponsored by all Clad, I think we could really move some things in my life.

So

please, let's put that out into the universe.

I love that for you.

All right.

I have one last sort of silly question in the non-spoiler section.

Anything else you want to talk about before I ask you?

I'm sorry, actually, it's a very serious question to close out the non-spoiler section.

Well, I want to hit the two kind of like, almost like set piece moments of this episode.

You know, we get this sequence in the TV station that I would say is like about as close to gameplay as we've had in the show as of yet in a way that didn't feel distracting and didn't feel like, oh, this is for the gamers.

It didn't feel like an Easter egg.

It just felt like, oh, this is a very tense evasion sequence you know as as ellie and dina are trying to escape

yes exactly a self-mode scene that like i thought really worked and then funneling that directly into the subway tunnel escape i just thought this was like a great set piece overall so good um scary terrifying really scary and i think like not to not to compare too much but like i think it gave us the thrill and the sense of character that at least i was missing a little bit from the attack on jackson like it bring the scale down a little bit

and making it like, you know what's scarier than being chased by infected in a big open space is being chased by infected in a small confined space.

And when you're also teaching us something about Ellie and Dina at that moment and also like Ultimately, I'm also a guy who's not immune to the charms of just like a pure zombie movie within our very emotional show about the apocalypse.

And so seeing kind of what the infected are capable of through the attrition of their numbers is always a really fun exercise.

Like they can get through these barriers, but not those barriers.

They haven't really figured out how to like World War Z it yet, Joe, where they can just like pile up on top of each other and climb up over, but you know, they're capable of a certain kind of coordination, but when presented with a turnstile, like it just turns into a meat grinder.

It just turns into a mushroom grinder.

The turnstile,

I thought it was so interesting because like you have to work together to get through a turnstile.

And they're not quite capable.

They're high-minded, but they're not capable of cooperative.

We all push in this direction to get through.

They were like both pushing on either end, and it just didn't work out.

Um, this is why they're Duxel now, you know, it's just it's a tough fate for everybody.

Duxelle now, um, delicious on toast.

Um, I think that

maybe this is also why I was like, hey, this, these girls are learning the ins and outs of the city.

This is their first subway experience, you know, getting on the muni for the first time can be quite intimidating.

And you're like, do I have the appropriate like pass?

What do I do?

Extremely true, et cetera, et cetera.

Okay, last but not least,

and this came from our listener, Maddie.

Uh, we will talk to Kate about the horse shimmer, but what record do you think Shimmer is vibing to for the rest of the mushroom apocalypse?

We left the horse shimmer inside the Valiant Record Store.

Uh, we saw some records in there.

What record do you think Shimmer is?

No question, Joe.

It's genuine.

Oh,

come on,

come on.

What are we doing?

Uh, really, really good answer.

Yeah, what are you thinking?

What's Shimmer's vibe?

Maybe it's more like America Horse with No Name.

Genuine Pony is good, but maybe it's the band America Horse is No Name.

That's my

name.

Shimmer does seem like an Americana kind of gal.

Yeah, yeah.

All right.

I've really seen things.

Certainly, as far as road tripping music goes, you could do a lot worse.

It's not my favorite America song.

Sister Golden Hair is the better one, but listen,

we do what we must.

Okay,

let's go now to our conversation with Kate Herring.

Kate, thanks so much for joining us, first of all.

But I mean, this episode has kind of everything in it, right?

We have a big zombie escape, we've got a sex scene, we've got a musical number.

Was there an element of this episode that you were most looking forward to taking on?

And was there maybe an element of it that you found the most intimidating from a creative standpoint?

Oh, wow.

I was thrilled when I got this episode because as you said, it has like

everything.

So I was really excited.

I think in terms of intimidated, I would honestly say it was more in terms of wanting to do it justice, but just like Take On Me is like such a big moment in the game.

And there's obviously been like teasers of it across the show.

So I just was like, I have to make sure that, you know, when we actually deliver this moment, that it makes you feel like how you did when you actually saw it in the game which was always for me honestly like a guide for any of the scenes we were doing because like our subway sequence it is very different from the game I use a similar kind of lighting approach

which was important to make you feel immersed in that way and I wanted to keep I don't know I remember playing that in the game and just being like oh my god oh my god and like running and being like so frantic and all this stuff was happening and obviously the story beats are different for us but I wanted to capture how I felt playing the game so that was always kind of my guiding light across the whole episode was even if we did changes story-wise, was just making sure fans of the game felt like they were back in their favorite story.

But also for people that hadn't seen the game, we make them feel like how, you know, the people did feel who have played it.

So

I feel like you absolutely crushed that, Assimon.

And I think that

what's been interesting to me listening to both you and Craig talk about what was important to get to nail,

it's so interesting to me that like the most faithfully adapted scenes that we've seen so far in this season have been the take on me moment and then the sort of the dance and the kiss in terms of like matching the camera angles almost exactly and i'm curious why you think it's so important inside of like the mushroom zombie show why are those like very romantic tender moments so important to recreate

I think that's what makes The Last of Us so special though.

You know, it's the human character moments in any good genre story for me, like the genre I love the most.

Like, yes, I love a horror story.

I love like, you know, fantastical worlds, but at the end of the day, it's something I'm going to rewatch and enjoy and want to spend time with the stories because I love the characters.

Or, you know, like on some level, I relate to what the characters are going through.

Obviously, I can't completely relate to what's happening to the characters in The Last of Us, but can I relate to not knowing if your friend likes you or if you like your friend.

I think we've all kind of been there on some level or like wanting to impress, you know,

your crush or someone that you love.

Like, you know, it's like, I think that that for me is really key in the story.

And also it's just nice, like their lives are so harrowing.

They've also had this huge loss between them of Joel and just letting them have a moment, which is ultimately still connected to Joel is very beautiful because it is like, oh, he did teach her really well.

So it's like a a moment to like celebrate his memory and his legacy in the sense of that how, that's how he will live on in her, which is kind of beautiful for me in the sense of, you know, this found father relationship that they have.

But also on the other level, it's just nice for them to be in a place where, yes, this music shop is safe.

There's no infected around.

And yeah, let's just enjoy this moment together.

So no, I'm rambling now, but I always, yeah, it was always really important for me that those emotional beats of relief come into the story because, you know, it is, as you both know, it is a very heavy story in a lot of places.

So, yeah, where we can find moments of joy, I think, is very key.

Well, I love that moment in the game.

I love the way it's presented in this episode.

I also, you know, we're just days removed from it.

I'm just walking around idly humming take on me to myself all the time.

Has it just been earwormed into your head for months at a time, effective?

Like, how long has Take On Me been stuck in your head?

I guess is my question to you.

Oh, I mean, for ages, like, because I knew the scene was coming.

Bella, like, they're a very talented musician anyway.

So it was just so exciting to see Bella take that song and make it theirs.

And like, I don't know, it felt like I was in on this really cool secret because obviously we got to film it and we did, like, we did different versions, like, where, but I think Bella was singing live in the version that we use in the edit.

And like, I don't know, it was just so special.

So I was honestly just like, oh my God, I can't wait for people to see this.

Yeah, but yeah, it has definitely been in my head.

I mean, when is HBO going to release the single of it?

That's my question.

I'm just waiting.

Release the Bella Cut.

We're all wanting it.

We definitely have the power to make that happen.

So we'll make that happen right away.

I love how you talk about how Joel was like there in that scene, but not there in that scene.

And there are so many moments of that in this episode where like a character is there in their absence to a certain degree.

Can you talk about the approach to capturing to making sure that that presence is felt across the episode?

Oh, wow.

I would say like in terms of

making sure,

I think so much of it is in the writing and the acting as well.

And I think it's always in the back of your mind.

I mean, look, the reason I love The Last of Us is like, I hadn't played

the first game like when everyone else did.

Like I bought a PlayStation in lockdown.

I played, I bought, I bought The Last of of Us because people were like, you have to play this game.

And then I rolled straight into the second game.

And I did not know what happened in the second game.

And I remember feeling like someone I knew in reality had died.

And it really

pulled the rug out from under me because this is going to sound foolish, but I just didn't know.

And this is partly because I, you know, I've played a lot of games, but I haven't played like as many as some people I know have.

And I just hadn't had a game hit me emotionally that way before.

Like I felt like actual grief and mourning.

And it was so clever to me then

how, like you said, like, and I don't want to spoil stuff, but in the sense of, you know, going back to Joel's house and just looking around his empty house.

And it was the same for me with the guitar.

I think that's the thing.

Like in reality, when you lose someone, physically, yes, they are not there, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

So I do think that always will radiate across it, you know, like with Ellie,

even if Joel's not there, Ellie's always carrying Joel with her, like wherever she goes.

So, yeah.

I mean, we have those thematic absences.

It also feels like in this episode, the camera itself is pretty withholding.

You know, you have this long Isaac monologue about cookware before we see who he's talking to.

You have, you know, Dina holding Ellie at gunpoint, but you can't read anything on her face because of the flashlight.

What do you draw out of those sorts of scenes by holding those things back?

Yeah, gosh.

Sorry, I was, I smiled, but it's like, it's not a funny scene at all, obviously, with Isaac, but it's just because I watched that of my friends the other night and yes what he's saying about the saucepan they were like oh it's like a light moment with Isaac and then one of my friends was like oh no wait who is he talking to and there was like this chill in the room and then obviously you reveal who he's talking to and it's terrible and I think for me that was so key in that and also for the tonal shifts in the episode because I do have these moments where yes you feel like you're in this safe space with Ellie and Dina at the beginning to a certain extent you know there's no infected around but then it's a reminder of no, we're still in the world of the last of us, and also just that one, Seattle is very dangerous, but Isaac is very dangerous because, you know, like the audience, Ellie and Dina don't understand exactly what they've walked into yet.

Abby is not just Abby and her friends, like she's part of something much bigger and much more dangerous.

And I think for me, the other key thing to balance across it was making sure that the people were just as dangerous as the as dangerous, sorry, as the infected, which I think is clear in the first season and in the game, obviously.

But that was always a very important thing to remind people.

So, yeah, so the reason I did that was that you don't want to reveal who Isaac's talking to straight away because you need to ease into the scene and that tonal shift and also sew the horror of that lands appropriately because it is horrific what's happening in that scene.

Um, and sorry, your question for the other tonal scene.

Oh, yeah, uh, with uh, you know, Dina holding Ellie at gunpoint, being obscured by the flashlight.

Yeah, I think the thing is, like, you can't, we need to be as in the dark as ellie is in that moment so it's really important i don't know i'm always about like how do we put the audience into the as much as we can into the character's head when it's appropriate and i think you know me and craig spoke a lot about that scene and he was like you know i love this lantern and like we both were really excited by the idea that yes you don't you don't know which way she's going to go and that's so important because

you I don't think anyone hopefully saw the kiss coming there, but I think it is important that you're like, like, what is Dina going to do?

Because obviously, logically, it's a terrible thing to have to do, but we have set up this is a world where people are used to have, not in a good way, but they, a lot of people have had to, you know, hurt loved ones because they have become infected.

So, and to Dina's reality, she doesn't know that Ellie's just saying that.

You know what I mean?

It's hard to be like, well, how do I believe you?

It's the kind of thing someone would say to try and save themselves.

So I think that was a really hard needle to thread.

But yeah, but definitely like hiding how she felt, definitely just anything to keep people on the back foot basically was always the key driving force.

You may have just actually answered this question I have for you, but I am going to ask it anyway, because I think there's like another level I want to get to in terms of like

the way you mentioned playing the video game.

And when you lose Joel, you feel like you lost someone you knew.

And there is this.

extra experience you get experience gestory playing the character and Craig and Neil have talked about like how do we make sure that idea of empathy, which is so key to the structure of The Last of Us, how do we translate it to television?

And I guess, like, the extra level of that I want to ask you about is, you know, for example, Rob and I, you know, a couple weeks ago, we covered Adolescence, the UK show, and we were talking about the way in which, you know, the one-shot approach to that show sort of by default puts you inside of the space in a sometimes suffocating, but really like forces,

force sounds too hard of a word, that empathy.

And so I'm wondering, like, when you think about making television, how do you think about engendering that connection, close connection with characters?

Oh, interesting.

No, the empathy question is interesting, though, isn't it?

Because it's also like.

you know, in the last of us, and you can say the same for adolescents.

I mean, I loved that show.

I thought it was absolutely brilliant, but it's about where are you placing empathy?

And also, if you're, if the audience is on the side with a character, they might switch.

Because, you know, like in the opening, for example, Isaac,

it's like you see these guys talking in the back of the truck, and you're like, it's like, almost like a horror film.

I spoke about Josh's character, almost like Drew Barrymore in Scream.

Not that she obviously deserves that, I just mean in the sense you have a very, you know, well-known actor that we kill off in the beginning.

But at the same time, he, unlike Drew, is playing a character in our story that isn't very likable.

And I think it's very easy to then be like on side with Isaac and be like, oh, wow, thank God.

He's and he saved that kid.

What a good guy.

But then obviously you go to the kitchen and it's like, oh, actually,

should I be on board with this person?

I don't know.

And I think that's the clever thing that the game does as well throughout the game.

You know, you're always questioning who should I sort of agree with or do I actually agree with them?

And the game is interesting because you're so active in having to make those decisions.

And often they're decisions that as a player you don't want to make but you have to make them to see what happens in the story so i think in terms of translating that to television for me it's always like look i got the fourth episode script and I thought it was brilliant and Craig is so good in his writing so it definitely selfishly for me as a director makes my job very um I don't want to say easy but it definitely you know it does a lot of heavy lifting for me in that sense because he's very brilliant and what he does but I would say in terms of how I would film it I'm just always thinking about POV, honestly, and like, who in this moment are we siding with?

And where do I want people to sort of be questioning?

And you can do that in how you frame someone to how you block it.

So, yeah, so it's slightly different everywhere, I would say.

Well, I mean, Jeffrey Wright is such a fascinating performer to have that sort of empathy in POV and to try to tangle with what is he portraying in that kind of moment.

Like, I mean, he's that way in everything that he's in.

But I mean, how did you try to think about channeling the presence of his performance as Isaac and the menace of that portrayal as well, kind of capturing the full picture of who this character is, at least to this point of the story?

Oh, gosh, I think we definitely got really stuck into it when we were filming it.

Because there's also the thing that if you're an actor playing a character, I guess, to the outside or to an audience that's not very likable, you can't play it that way as an actor because terrible people don't recognize that they're terrible people.

You know what I mean?

So I think that

that was very interesting to tap into with him.

And also just the sense that, yes, in Isaac's worldview, he thinks he is doing completely the correct thing.

So it's just more the question of how did this character become so violent?

What led them to become these actions?

Which is why I love the, you know, Ben, the actor, his like rookie character, because you see him at the beginning make this choice and then you join him later.

And then you're like, oh, is this similar to what happened to Isaac then or many other people in this war?

So, yeah.

So, did that answer your question?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I wanted to ask you,

I was lucky enough to get to talk to you years ago about Loki.

And as you know, I'm obsessed with your season of Loki.

But one of my favorite things that you talked about was

your pitch, how you went and pitched Marvel on Loki.

And I know you've talked a little bit about your pitch for The Last of Us in terms of like you were talking about Ellie and Dina a lot.

So they gave you the Ellie and Dina episode.

But I was wondering, like, what, what, what can you tell us about your pitch?

What did you, what was that experience like?

How did what did you say when you went in the room?

Well, it was interesting because the style for the show is established, right?

So, I know, and it was a different kind of job to Loki because Loki, obviously, like, I was running that show, so it was a very different and setting it up.

So, it's a very different thing to come into.

Whereas, like, The Last of Us, I'm very aware that, you know, I'm in Craig's house.

So, like, I just was like,

and Neil as well.

Sorry.

So, it's like making sure I think I just spoke to both of them and was like, This is what I love about the game.

Yeah, and I didn't, I can't remember if I even had a script.

I think it was just more like a personality test kind of thing.

They were just seeing if we creatively clicked.

I mean, look, I remember I was really early to my interview, and so was Neil.

And we both were on the Zoom at the same time.

And in my head, I thought, well, look, if I don't get this job, at least I got to talk to Neil for

five minutes and ask him questions about the game.

But yeah, I remember that that I just, I showed them.

I have like a statue of Ellie in like back in England that I showed them.

I have like vinyls of season one soundtrack and like a vinyl they released with the second game.

So I was showing them that stuff.

I joked to my agent that I was going to dress as Ellie, but I did not.

I refrained.

Powerful restraint on your part, I gotta say.

Yeah, I was like, would it be too far or would it be flattering?

But anyway, but I just like, yeah, but no, I think I just went in and had a conversation with them and spoke about like, I think it's one of the smartest pieces of art on Empathy, like ever made, the second game.

Like, I'm obsessed with it.

And yeah, and I loved what Craig and Neil did with season one of the show.

So I was just excited to be part of the conversation.

But yeah, but I don't think at the time I knew what episode I was doing.

I think I must have just been talking lots and lots about Ellie and Dina.

And I guess they were like, yes, give her that.

Wait, I'm sorry, really quickly.

Can you tell us a little bit more about your Ellie statue?

And like, is it somewhere, does it have a place of pride in your house?

Or?

Well, I don't like, I don't have it at the moment, but it's like a friend of mine got it for me, but it's just, it's like a, it's like a little statue of Ellie in the second game, basically.

Sat on a kind of cement block playing the guitar.

But I love it.

Yeah.

I just, I just love the game.

So, yeah.

Well, you didn't, as you said, kind of get the full world creating enterprise like you did with Loki, but you do get to introduce us to Seattle proper and to kind of the world world of the WLF in particular.

Like, how do you, how do you get an audience acclimated to a new space and a new place like that?

Like, how do you think about those sorts of introductions?

Yeah, totally.

I think for me, it was like,

honestly, I know I always go back to the game, but I was always just going back to the game and just think, and also just on a storytelling perspective, just thinking about, yeah, like slowly introduce.

And I think, again, I always go back to, I think in the writing, it's very carefully written to be this pressure cooker.

You know, we're all building up to that moment where they go to the TV station, then in the subway, you get maybe, I don't know, 20 seconds when they're in the rain, and then we're in the theater.

So I think it was always just slowly unfolding.

Yes, what is this place in Seattle?

And for me, I remember the game just had this scale.

So I was always trying to inject that where I could across bits of like our episode, basically.

Was there anything,

you know, obviously we love the last of us as an a piece of adaptation so we embrace all changes we also know that we can't rifle through drawers for ammo uh for like 20 hours or whatever that's not a season of television but was there anything as a fan of the game that you missed at all in this section of seat i mean i will just i'll say personally like i was like oh the synagogue section is so interesting inside of the game in terms of what we learned about dina so you know and then there's like this stained glass moment inside of the music store so i was like i don't know if that's a reference to that, but like, was there anything that you, a fan of the game, were like, oh, okay, we're not doing this, but that's okay.

We'll, we'll find it elsewhere.

Truthfully, I didn't miss any bits just because I hope my dream,

people watch it and then they're like, man, I'm going to go play that game.

You know what I mean?

Because I love in video games where I'm very detail orientated.

And if I really love a game, I will.

do everything in it.

You know what I mean?

Like, I'll go collect everything and all this.

And I think there's a reward in that if you want to be that thorough when you play a game.

And I think that

it has to, to a certain extent, you have to let go of certain things because it has to be an adaptation, you know, and it doesn't necessarily mean that the stuff that's not in it wasn't good.

It's just.

you know, you have to always put the story first in terms of like, okay, what's going to be the best for the story?

But in terms of like, what's in there and what's not in there, that's more like Craig's domain than mine.

Of course, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

But I wouldn't say like when I read it, I definitely was asking Craig, oh, this is different, and this is different, and just out of intrigue, honestly, more than anything.

And honestly, just because I'm also a writer, just from a learning standpoint, I was like, Why did you not do this?

Why did you not do this?

But, like, but that would be his.

I can't say what those things are.

I was asked because I think that would be his kind of conversation to have with the public.

But I just, um,

yeah, but I do find it very interesting.

But no, I was never like bumped.

I think, for example, if like Take on Me wasn't in that bit, I'd be like, What?

What are we doing here?

Yeah, some people don't do that bit of the game, but the people that did will really care.

Yeah.

So I think that for me, I didn't feel all the changes felt earned to me.

And like, for example, like Dina and Ellie's relationship in the game is completely different, like where they first kiss and where they first have sex.

And so, oh, sorry, not where they first kissed, sorry, that's the same, but I meant where the intimacy is.

But I just.

I liked that it had this slower buildup to it.

And it also, for me, enriched Dina's storyline in how they did it.

And again, like we were saying earlier, gave a sense of relatability to her.

You know, obviously we can't relate to her living circumstance, but we, I'm sure many people will relate to what she's going through.

But in terms of that attention to detail that you're talking about as well, I mean, we get a lot of loving time in this episode with, you know, old signage, like broken down amps, all these kind of like remnants of the old Seattle.

And I'm curious for you, like, are those scripted and storyboarded elements?

Are those parts of the set that just like caught your eye?

Where did those come from?

And how did they kind of end up in the final version of the show?

Oh, no.

So we, we had an amazing second unit team.

And I basically like, was like, please, can you shoot this for me?

Yeah.

And I was like, I look, Craig does put a lot of detail on the scripts, but I think the main thing was that also we have an amazing production designer.

And I was like, we have to honor these sets because like they look so cool.

And yes, and the video game.

I suppose like that aspect of my brain where I do like detail and looking at stuff.

I was like, let's just, I don't know, I'm always at the mindset, if we can film it, let's just film it.

And if they don't end up using it in the end, then at least I gave them something to use, you know, but Craig also loves detail and texture.

So I think we were both like definitely very aligned with that.

I mean, I know the caterpillar was a pitch I had.

I love the caterpillar.

Well, I was obsessed with it because.

I basically like the idea because I meant it's like this overgrown kind of garden, like, you know, where Ellie's playing and it's all gone back to nature.

And I just said to Craig, I don't know, I just was like, it's the last of us.

Maybe we we could get a caterpillar.

So I just said, like, can we, you know, get a caterpillar just to be in this shot?

And he was like, oh, yeah, I'm sure we could.

I like that idea.

So then we got this caterpillar.

It did a lovely job.

So yes, I was very happy.

Is there a caterpillar wrangler?

Yeah, yeah.

Great question.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You have like a bug person, basically, like with any animal

who, you know, is acting, they, you know, they're taken care of and everything.

So yeah.

Wow.

New, new like alternative career unlocked.

Absolutely.

bug wrangler.

It was great.

He has multiple bugs and he brought his bugs and I had a look at them all and it was great.

And we were like, this is the one.

But you had a caterpillar audition.

A lineup.

There was like, okay.

Well, we had like a few and then I basically, I think we filmed quite a few different ones.

And then the one in the cut was like, yeah, it just, I just like the way it's kind of dancing a little bit.

Anyway, you probably don't want to talk about caterpillars, right?

No,

this is what we want to hear about it.

This genuinely is what we want to hear.

Our condolences to the other caterpillars, too.

Like, that's a tough, that's a a tough beat.

No, almost, to almost be the caterpillar in The Last of Us.

Brutal.

They're going to be, they're going to be dining out on that story forever that they almost got that gig, you know.

We've had a lot of feedback from people

sort of to what you referenced about the Dean and Ellie relationship and how it rolls out differently inside of the show.

We've had a lot of email from people who love the game and love the show inside of the queer community who are talking about the difference between a world where everything stopped in 2003 versus a world where everything stopped a decade later as it does in the game.

And I was curious sort of what was on your mind to that degree in terms of, I mean, we get the scene where Dean and Ellie are like, what is all this rainbow stuff in Seattle?

That's from the game, obviously, but like, what else were you thinking about in terms of the state of mind of someone for a world that stopped in 2003?

Oh, wow.

Oh, gosh.

I'm trying to think like what I would have been thinking.

Honestly, I wish I had like a deeper answer.

I think for me, I just was thinking less on a big scale of that and more just about the actual characters, I suppose, and what their worldview would be.

Like I, I love that part where they go through Seattle and don't understand, you know, what the flags mean.

And yeah, but I think in terms of the rest of it, I mean.

Honestly, again, I always just go back to the script.

I think it would be if they did something or said like a certain ton of phrase that someone would just not say because it, you know, culturally, culture never got to that point.

You know what I mean?

Then maybe, yeah, I would have called that out, but I never felt like anything felt ungrounded, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

I mean, this version of Ellie and Dina, and you really get it in the take on me sequence in particular, relative to the game, feels like even sweeter, I would say, than the version that we get in the game.

There's like, there is a, I don't know, I don't know if it's a girlishness or something a little bit more saccharine to their dynamic.

I mean, does it read that way to you or feel that way to you?

And how has that changed, I guess, the portrayal of those two characters and how they're kind of interacting at this stage?

Oh, interesting.

I think the big thing, honestly, is that I know Neil and Craig have spoke a lot and Izzy spoke a lot about just finding Dina's character within, you know, how does Dina fit into the television show adaptation of this?

And I don't know, I really like how they complement each other as characters.

You know what I mean?

I like that, you know, Ellie is more like, I'm just going to go straight in and do this.

But then Izzy is like, well, let's think about about that.

You know, like, maybe we won't rush into that.

Maybe we should do this.

And I think there's, they really complement each other, which is important because, you know, I think that it makes sense, even if you take the love story out of it, it makes sense why they would go together, like on, you know, this journey.

Yeah.

Here's my last question.

It's the most important one.

Is Shimmer the horse okay?

And is Shimmer just going to chill in the record store for all of time now?

I am fascinated by this because basically, when we were filming, I made a comment being like, So we never see Shimmer again.

And I was like, Man, I wonder if people will think about this.

And then, of course, like today on the internet, I've seen all these shimmer things because I was saying, I think I did say to Craig, but I was like, They should do like a comic book spin-off, or like, or it could just be like an episode.

But how cool would it be if you just follow?

I don't know, I love films that like follow animals and stuff.

And how cool would it be if it was like just shimmer on this like completely silent like journey across like the apocalyptic wasteland and you just well like that film flow yeah yeah yeah you know what i mean it's been done in that really so i'm just stealing flow but you know what i mean but yeah there was a film called the bear when i was like a kid that was like that where it was just like following a bear around

uh as it like eats psychedelic mushrooms among other things uh is a strong memory i have yeah it's like they filmed it with a real bear i don't know um but uh but yeah shimmer yeah it was like a nature supposed to be a nature movie i don't think I understood as a kid that he was, that he was eating psychedelic mushrooms.

But

he definitely eats mushrooms and then like things get all weird for him for a little bit.

This is a memory I have.

The Adventures of Shimmer is something that I think you should definitely pitch and we definitely deserve to have.

On Instagram today, I actually was like, guys, you know, if you want, I'm around.

I, you know, let's make, let's make it happen.

Let's make it.

I think a Shimmer comic book could be very beautiful, though, because I just think it's so, but they should film it.

That would be fun too.

I mean, we're all worried that it's going to be a long wait until season three.

So, like, a comic book would be fun.

Yeah, just like hold us over.

Yeah.

Self-standing movie.

There's a lot of options, I think.

Go the euphoria model with this.

I'm also selfishly trying to take ownership of this, though, but so many fans are so good at drawing.

Hope maybe a fan will just draw like a kick-ass comic of Shimmer.

You know what I mean?

And like, what happened to them?

I would read it.

But in your mind,

Shimmer is just having a great time for the rest of the episode.

I think they're away from the people.

Yeah.

Having the time of their lives.

Like, people means danger if you're a horse.

So I would be like, I think as long as the infected aren't near them, we get a sense that there's no one around there right now, right?

Because there's no people to, you know, consume or take over.

So I don't know.

All right.

Happy ever after.

Happy ever after.

Just like crushing vinyl for shimmer.

Sounds great.

I love that.

Kate, thank you so much for chatting.

I really appreciate it.

Oh, thank you so much for your time.

This is so much fun.

Thanks.

Yeah.

Thank you.

All right.

This is spoiler section.

So, wait, sorry, what did you just say, Joe?

I said, This is the spoiler section.

There's spoilers in the air, you can inhale them.

You certainly can.

If you stay here without a gas mask, so beware.

Okay,

um, let's go back to something we talked about a little bit in the non-spoiler section that you want to talk about more here, which is uh, Ellie's reaction to Dina's reveal that she's pregnant.

Yes, inside of the game,

Dina's like,

uh, I didn't tell you earlier because I didn't want to be a burden.

And Ellie's like, well, you're a burden now.

It's not good, Joe.

A tough moment.

It's very tough.

Tough look for our girl, Ellie.

What do you think about the difference here?

Are you missing that angrier, meaner Ellie?

How do you feel?

A little bit.

I think it makes sense somewhat given the time shift.

Like the version of Ellie that we have at this point in the story, at least in her point of her journey in the game, is so raw off of Joel's death and hasn't had any time to really process it.

And so it makes sense that she's pretty cold and pretty shut off.

And I think fundamentally, that's a character who we get a sense in the game that Ellie has this mission.

And it's like, anything that is not the mission, she will say whatever she has to say to continue hunting Abby.

And it's like, even the people she loves are kind of secondary, the people she cares about, her friends.

Obviously, Dina, it's like, this is a distraction from this thing that I am trying to do.

And so, I, the coldness of that in the game, contrasted with all of the really warm moments between Ellie and Dina, is part of, I think, what makes that version of that relationship so captivating.

I'm open to this one, too.

Like, I think this one works, it just feels texturally a little different.

And so, then I'm wondering, why do you change it?

Like, what are you trying to tell us?

What are you trying to sell us?

How are you trying to change the complexion of the story by making it a little softer and fundamentally like, I think, sweeter at this point in the in the story i have a theory about that you want to hear it please um

we know what is coming this week again spoilers are in the air um what's coming up this next week on the last of us is the nora death right gotta be right just timing wise we're headed to the hospital we heard that nora's at the hospital we only have a couple episodes left of the season so we're probably

and so for those of us for those people who are listening to the spoiler section who haven't played the game, when Ellie encounters face-to-face the first member of the Salt Lake City crew,

at this point in the game, she's already encountered a couple, but this is like in the show, this will be right, the first time she encounters someone who was there in that room when Joel died.

And she

not only kills Nora, but kills her gruesomely

in a way that basically traumatizes her afterwards inside of the game, right?

There's this whole like sequence where Dina is taking care of Ellie when she comes back, and Ellie is just like absolutely wrecked by what she's done.

And it's one of those moments, you know, Kate was talking about it in our conversation.

And Craig and Neil have talked about this in terms of Joel's decision at the end of season one.

There's this level of complicity.

You cannot move on from the hospital section of the game until you have done this absolutely nasty thing

to Nora to get information out of her about where Abby is.

She's already inhaled spores, which inside of the world of the game means she's dead anyway.

But you're going to torment her so that you can get this information you need.

And you have to do that as a player until you are complicit in this moment for Ellie.

that radically changes who she is as a person.

Right.

What happened to Joel radically changes her and what happens with Nora radically changes her because she has crossed a sort of personal, moral, violent Rubicon.

And so I think it's important that we haven't seen her stab a million people in the neck.

And I think it's important that she's in this

happier, more optimistic space so that

what happens to her post-Nora and then everything that happens thereafter, we can really see the damage that not just watching violence, but participating in violence

does to her.

So that's my theory as to why we're getting sort of like a softer, sweeter version of Ellie here.

What do you think?

I completely agree.

And I think that extends to into her relationship with Dina and the way that all of that is going to progress and ultimately unravel, right?

Like it's, it's, it changes the story a little bit, but not in an unwelcome way to make it very clear at this stage that if Ellie just stopped, that she could find a kind of happiness.

Right.

Like if she could just stop what she's doing and go home and process, like there's something for her there.

It's the, it's the participation in the cycle of violence.

Because, you know, this violent thing happened to her, near her.

And she does have a choice

to process it one way,

to not go to Seattle at all, or if she goes to Seattle, finding out Dina's pregnant, saying, Oh my God, this is my future.

Joel's not in it, and that's horrifying for me.

These people will not get, you know, retribution by my hands.

And that's upsetting to me, but I can have a future.

I want that with you, is what she says to dina right inside of this episode and um and she takes another path and so i i agree with you that there's like there is a way forward from something so traumatic happening to you

and here's the here's the the fork in the road yes for ellie there's there are many forks in the road but this is a very significant one yeah so it's i think it's i think it's important structurally to have all of these checkpoints for ellie where it's like you could stop here and and this is what nora's death is too too, is kind of the first look-in-the-mirror moment, as you were describing, of like, you did this horrible thing, and you need to decide, like, now you have this information about where you think Abby is, is it worth considering?

Have you gone too far?

And this, like, all of these are versions of that checkpoint.

And I think the story only really works if you have her hitting these specific checkpoints.

And you can deviate on how you get there.

You can even change the circumstances in which she hits them, but like, she needs to have moments of consideration of like, maybe I should turn back.

Maybe this is too much.

Maybe, maybe this kind of violence is, isn't going to give me like the resolution that I'm craving and that I'm desiring.

And I think the other part of it, too, as far as like this particular change in the story and making their relationship so loving and so open and so sweet at this stage is it's to me, it's also buttressing the themes of all of this stuff.

Like ultimately, when Ellie makes her choices, whatever you may think of Abby and what she deserves, it's like, we need to feel like the costs of doing this are too great on all sides, right?

There's the emotional toll of what it's doing to you as a person to go exercise this kind of violence.

And there's also what it's going to do to you as a person to leave behind something this good.

And this is like, it's a little simpler.

It's a little flatter maybe, but it's still very sweet.

I still enjoy watching it.

And ultimately, I think it's still really effective.

Right.

The thing that, what is...

What is she going to be losing?

What is she going to be risking?

What is she going to be walking away from at the end of all of this?

Again, you are in the spoiler section.

Okay, so we did get an email, a question about how the Nora death is going to play out, given that we haven't seen spores so far in the show.

But

if

they have said spores are coming this season, and in the trailer for next week's episode, it's like, it's in the air is something they say.

So I think we are going to get...

I think we're still going to get like the spore-based death for Nora.

Does it work the same way if Nora, like, like to me, Nora has to have the knowledge of how the spores work

for that to matter?

And so that's one thing I'm curious to see how they handle is like if this is new information.

And I actually really like the overall kind of trend line of, oh, this is a fungus that's evolving, right?

Like this is the cordyceps is growing, it's changing, it's

adapting in these new ways.

And like the spores as a thing that they did not have at the beginning, I assume in part just to keep characters out of gas masks.

And then later on, like now that we're introducing it, I think that's a a cool wrinkle to bring in back into the story.

But yeah, like it's, it's kind of important that everyone knows what the spores do so that one, Nora can have the realization that, oh, Ellie is immune.

Yes.

And in fact, I am.

There are.

And I am dead.

Like, regardless of what happens, I am dead.

And that's kind of what makes what Ellie does especially fucked up.

It's like, this woman is going to die.

And you are just.

inflicting pain for the sake of information.

Going back to Dina for a second.

Yes.

Something that I've been really stuck on

is the Dina conversation around Jesse in the tent when she's talking about, does Jesse strike you as sad?

If it's not just him, it's then it's just me.

And an email we got from our listener, Marcus,

suggested that Dina talking about Jesse being sad is a sort of prequel to the way her relationship with Ellie pans out.

That this is on her mind of like

what's her personal responsibility for the emotional

health, the mental health of her partner at any given time.

And if Ellie is unable to drag herself out of this dark place,

in what sense will Dina say, once again, is it just me?

Am I failing as a partner?

You know, is this my responsibility?

Or I can't.

I can't take responsibility.

I can't.

This can't be my struggle anymore.

I've got this kid to take care of.

I've got these other things to think about.

What do you think, Rob?

I think this was super well spotted as far as this being a precursor to that ultimate sort of twist and that development in the character.

And I'm with you.

Like, I don't really know which direction they're going to take it as far as how Dina is going to internalize that sort of pain and that sort of responsibility.

But I love that as kind of setting up that emotional dynamic.

I also wish we should have hammered more up top.

This is an amazing Isabella Merced episode.

Like, I think she's unreal and has to carry so many of the biggest emotions.

And the fact that she's doing that this well, this early makes me feel even more excited slash anticipating being devastated by where Dina's story is ultimately going to go.

Yeah.

I want to take your temp

literally on the, not literally, on the Deaver Fever front.

Yeah.

This episode is called Day One.

And again, if you're listening to this and you haven't played the game, the mechanism is you go Seattle day one through three as Ellie, and then you restart and you do Seattle day one and you're playing, you're playing as Abby.

Yes.

And so the fact that they call this day one really feels like a signal to people that like, they're going to do that, that we're going to do day two, day three.

And then in season three, we're going to restart day one with Abby in Seattle.

Do you think it'll end as jarringly?

Like ultimately, Ellie's story at the end of game three, if I'm not mistaken, ends with like Ellie at gunpoint.

And it's like, to be continued, let's go do Abby's story.

Like that's a, that's quite a hang to put people on for a couple of years.

Yeah, I guess my question is like, are we we going to have to wait till the very end of, we had been asking this question before.

We had clocked that Caitlin Deaver is only a guest star this season, not even part of the main cast.

So

are we going to get her in the finale at all?

At what point?

What's your feeling on that?

I think we will get her in the finale.

I'm not sure we'll get her sooner than that.

I think some of that is because of just the way the game is set up and it's been relatively faithful to that construction, but also I think it just works better if Ellie is sort of like working her way through Abby's friends in order to kind of get to her, or in this case, like Abby ultimately gets to her.

But I guess to rewind, like we have the, like, Ellie needs to go to the hospital or whatever building to find Nora.

Like, that's going to happen.

She's going to presumably go find Owen and Mel

at the aquarium.

I hope it's at the aquarium.

It's like such a great setting and it's creepy as fuck as far as like everything that goes down.

Another big city adventure.

Let's go to the aquarium.

Just adventures of two bro girls out on the town.

And then like Abby kind of hunting to strike back.

Like Abby coming to find Ellie.

And this is the other question we have is like, who's going to be with her at that point?

Like right now in the story in the game, Dina has already kind of been sidelined by her pregnancy.

And it's interesting to see that they're kind of like involving her in a totally different way, at least to what we've seen so far.

Like she's ready to go on this next stage of proceeding through Seattle with Ellie.

Um, I don't know if Jesse's gonna come back into the story as he does in the game.

I don't know if Tommy's gonna come back into the story as he does in the game.

Obviously, in the game, you're chasing Tommy, which is a totally different dynamic than if he is chasing Ellie and could kind of turn some of those ideas and plot mechanics upside down as far as like how they navigate them.

I do think that some of those people have to be there.

And I think Dina can't be in the room with Nora because Ellie doesn't go to the lengths that she does.

And some of that might be spore-related too.

It's like an easy excuse, right?

If there's spores, Dina has to stop.

Ellie can keep going.

Everyone knows she's immune.

It works.

But thematically, it's like you have to feel the losses on Ellie's side as far as like she has to lose people like Jesse.

She has to, like, Tommy has to be seriously, life-alteringly wounded in order to have like some measure of not the scales balancing, but like you're feeling this overall cost of everything that's happening between all of Abby's friends being picked off one by one.

And in some ways, like very parallel, similar fashion.

Like the way Jesse is shot and the way Manny is shot are very similar as far as like just a complete jolt through the story at a time you're really not expecting it.

And so I think you have to have some of that stuff.

I'm just, I'm not quite sure how we're going to get all the characters to those end points at this point, which is honestly like I'm, I'm very eager to see.

On the on that front, in terms of um

Abby's friends and what we're going to see years from now in season three,

one of the theories I saw floating around was this character of Burton, who is like a show-invented character, this young guy played by Ben Ahlers, who people who've watched The Gilded Age sort of recognize.

He's not like a nobody actor.

They were wondering if maybe he will be the like the Danny that Owen kills

in order to put Owen on the outs of the WLF and something like that.

And Isaac's reaction to Danny's death might be heightened by the fact that it's this like Burton kid who he drafted in the first place.

Yeah.

Just a random theory that I kind of liked.

Stay tuned in several years before I get the answer to that.

And then our listener, Garrett, wanted to sort of drive home this other

aspect.

In terms of gameplay, when you switch from playing as Ellie to playing as Abby,

there's POV.

There's sort of like,

you know, as Mallory has been fond of pointing out, you, as Ellie, kill a dog and then immediately find out, like pretty soon thereafter, find out that that is Abby's dog.

Yeah.

You know, like these, these POV shifts are important.

These sort of like

Melan Owen and Nora and all of that, what they mean to you.

But Garrett was writing in about the...

physical difference of playing as Abby versus Ellie.

This idea is as Ellie, you're scrappy.

You've got all these knives, you're crouching, you're stealthing, blah, blah, blah.

Then, as Abby, you're like this physically imposing sort of like tank as you can just sort of like chew your brute force, chew your way through people.

You also have all this like tactical gear because you're part of this army.

And the way in which that makes you like a different, um,

a member of this larger army versus Ellie's experience as an outsider of her community, right?

Like Abby is to a certain degree the SLC.

The SLC crew is a smaller community inside of the larger WLF community, But Ellie is this sort of like

lone survivor.

I mean, she's got Dina, she had Joel, but like still very, um,

it's like scrappiness and stealthiness and knives that will get you through this.

And with Abby, it's all the conditioning and the training and the weapons that came from joining this community and being a part of.

So like thematically, it's not just like a physical difference.

The physical difference then feeds back into the thematic difference between those characters.

And I think that's that's fascinating.

And once again, something you can't experience when you're just passively watching a show as a viewer.

And also,

again, we've talked about the ways in which Caitlin Deaver sort of bearing a more physical resemblance to Bella Ramsey than Abby does in the game is interesting in a different way, but it is

a definite difference.

I mean, it's going to require

that.

Yeah, it's going to require a rewriting of the character in some sense, right?

Like in those elements, you're just going to have to change where Abby's sense of strength and what makes her so imposing come from.

And I think some of it could be what you described, which is like her being embedded in a group that has a different kind of resource, right?

Like Jackson has a lot going for it.

Fully functional army, or at least semi-functional army, self-standing, somewhat regulated militia, however you want to describe the WLF.

They've, yes, yes.

They have automatic weapons.

Jackson has barrels of flammable fuel near a wood wall.

It's not a pro-science community, ultimately.

They're figuring a lot of stuff out there.

But yeah, I think having those sorts of resources, having the overall might and support of the WLF, even for a character like Abby, who...

at points in the story is not on the outs, but like in conflict with some of that stuff.

But I think positions her in a different way and makes her intimidating in a different way.

And I wouldn't be surprised if we see Abby rewritten a little bit, like, I don't know, maybe to be a little bit even more strategic, to be a little bit of a big picture thinker in a way that Ellie is not.

Like, if anything, in this story, like, Ellie is so driven that she is kind of the blunt instrument.

Like, she is going in one direction.

And if you turn Abby into somebody who can think a little bit more laterally, then that can be intimidating in its own right, too.

Last thing I want to mention, and then, of course, I want to make sure that you get to say everything you want to say, but

the way that the take-on-me scene was shot is so beautiful, so tremendously faithful to the game.

But something that both the game does and the

and Kate's camera does in this episode is we get the focus on like the hand tuning the guitar, a lot of hand stuff, and thinking about the fact that, like, a lot of hand stuff in this episode, Joe.

All around.

On all fronts, it's a bummer that Ellie will lose her fingers.

And will that

will that hurt her game across the board in terms of all the stuff she needs to do with those fingers?

Time will tell.

This is why you're the best, Joe.

This is why you're the goat, you know?

Just strolling right through that one.

I mean, look,

we can't pretend it's not pointed at this, at this stage, you know?

Like, there is a lot of emphasis on Ellie's fingers.

I don't know what to tell you.

There's a lot happening there.

I mean,

you know, and then her relationship goes downhill.

And who can say if there's a, there's a, you know, whatever.

Okay, so Ramahoney.

Yes.

Anything else you want to say in the spoiler section before we go?

There are definitely some things I want to say.

I think one.

I want to pre-cap this season.

We're all about pre-capping around here.

We still don't know when or if these like very important flashback sequences are going to happen.

I would say the two to flag that seem like they probably will happen this season, if I had to guess.

One, this is about the stage in the story of the game where we get the Science Museum detour with Joel, the astronaut Ellie sequence.

And it's been seeded so heavily to this point, I would be very surprised if that one isn't in season two.

I'm a little more on the fence, but I would say I'm still maybe like 70 to 75%

likely that we get the full confrontation flashback.

in Salt Lake where Ellie goes back and gets the voice recorder or some kind of proving evidence that I was immune.

They were trying to make a cure.

Joel straight up murdered all these people.

And I say that in part because if you're going to have Ellie and Abby run into each other at the end of this season, to me, it is kind of important that Ellie has knowledge of what happened in that moment.

I will say, I think with Love and Respect of the Game, it's like a little inelegant of like, go get the recording.

I mean, it is.

And so, is there another way to get there for sure?

Outside of that, yeah, I think that's.

Whatever version of that you want to do where Ellie becomes aware of that information.

And maybe it's Abby telling her.

Maybe it's her getting that information from Nora.

I don't know how that expresses itself exactly, but I think it is important that Ellie has a fuller sense of what has actually happened here by the end of this season.

All right.

Anything else?

One final thing, Joe.

Yeah.

Just to flag.

We have a lot of ground to cover.

We talked about the huge plot points that probably need to happen or will happen in these final three episodes.

Obviously, Obviously, those flashbacks we just mentioned are potentially in the cards or some version of them.

We got to figure out what's going on with Eugene, who is going to be incorporated in this story at some point.

Who knows what's going on with Tommy?

Who knows what's going on with Jesse?

There's a lot to put on screen.

I'm also curious how much of the continued turf war between the WLF and the Seraphites we're going to get, not just in an Isaac torturing a dude in a room sense, but like a big, like, you know, we're walking into this, seems like a battle sequence, effectively, or at least least Ellie is navigating around the battle sequence.

How much are we going to actually see or contextualize what's going on between these two groups?

Because it's kind of like the macro representation of all the themes of the story is like what's going on with the WLF and the Seraphites.

And so it's like you kind of can't back burner it too much because you also need to set up Yara and Lev, too.

I mean, what I will say is that we do in the trailer get

shot of a scythe

and also shot

sure and then shot of like someone being hoisted.

Anybody could be hoisting.

I'm just saying we haven't seen everything the Seraphites are capable of yet this season, I guess, is all I know so far.

Well, I can't wait for a good hoist.

I think that would be a nice lead into episode five.

Could be anyone's scythe.

That does it for episode four of The Last of Us.

We only have a couple more episodes left.

We will be back, as we mentioned, with your friends and neighbors later this week.

Thank you so much to you, Rob Mahoney.

Thanks, Joe.

To, I mean, let's, if this is the end of it, let's bid a fond farewell to Rob Mahoney's beard.

Thank you to Donnie Bijam for his work in this episode.

Thanks to Kate Heron for coming on.

What a legend.

And thanks to Justin Sales for his work throughout this entire feed.

And we will see you soon.

Bye.