Don’t Let Your Financial Mistakes Define You

Speaker 1 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show, where we help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual amazing relationships. Dr.

Speaker 1 John Deloney, Ramsey personality, PhD in counseling, does the Dr. John Deloney Show where he talks to you about your relationships, your life, and he's here to help me today.

Speaker 1 He's the co-host, number one best-selling author, and we're glad he's with us.

Speaker 1 I always have a good time. See, he'll get you one way, I'll get you the other, so you ain't got a chance of getting away today.
That's the way it is. Phone number is 888-825-5225.
Hannah is with us.

Speaker 1 Hannah is in Denver, Colorado.

Speaker 1 Hi, Hannah. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 2 Hi, thanks for taking my call. Sorry, I'm super nervous right now.

Speaker 1 It's okay. We haven't lost a patient in years.
How can we help?

Speaker 2 Well, here's our situation.

Speaker 2 My husband and I, we owe the IRS and the state over $600,000 in debt.

Speaker 1 Good lord, how did that happen? Yes.

Speaker 2 You know, it's quite, it's overwhelming to even think about how it happened.

Speaker 2 Just

Speaker 2 not paying our taxes. And my husband is self-employed.

Speaker 1 For how many years?

Speaker 2 Quite a few.

Speaker 2 I'm actually not even sure on the date how far back it goes.

Speaker 1 So you finally started filing, and then you end up with, try to stay out of jail because

Speaker 1 not filing is criminal. And so you go and file, and now they give you the total, and it's like, oh, my gosh.

Speaker 1 Yep. Wow.

Speaker 1 Obviously, you don't have 600,000, or you wouldn't have called me.

Speaker 2 No, that's right.

Speaker 2 And we are current on our taxes right now.

Speaker 1 Good.

Speaker 2 We were working with a tax resolution company

Speaker 1 who eventually just told us after you have to pay them. After you gave them 10 grand, they did nothing.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 They're a self-help. Yeah, they're as helpful as anyway.

Speaker 1 Negative. Okay.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I'm sorry.
So

Speaker 1 what is your house worth?

Speaker 2 We

Speaker 2 about $400,000 in equity.

Speaker 1 In equity.

Speaker 2 Yes, and there's a lien against it.

Speaker 1 From the IRS or somebody else? Yes, from the IRS. Okay, good.
And

Speaker 1 what is your household income?

Speaker 2 $244,000 after taxes.

Speaker 1 That's good news. Okay.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 2 the tax resolution company that we were working with, after everything was said and done, they basically said filing chapter 13 would be in your best interest.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but

Speaker 1 they are not credible because they shouldn't have taken your $10,000 because you are not a candidate for an OIS, an offer and compromise, an OIC.

Speaker 1 And they took your money telling you, and I can tell you in 30 seconds, you're not eligible for that. Yep.
An offer and compromise is only available to people who don't have any ability to pay.

Speaker 1 You have tremendous ability to to pay between your equity and your income. So the IRS will look at that in about 13 seconds and say denied.
So those people just stole $10,000 of your money.

Speaker 1 So they're not credible. A chapter 13 will put you on a payment plan.
You probably can get a good tax attorney and just get on a payment plan. Okay.

Speaker 1 You need to get somebody that's a pro, an attorney that works on taxes that's legitimate, that's not just selling OICs.

Speaker 1 1% of the people that apply for an OIC, by the way, folks, these things, you see them on,

Speaker 1 you see these commercials on television. Have you got a tax problem? Call 1-800-TAXR Us.
We have professional IRS agents, former IRS agents, to help you. That's the ad she answered, okay?

Speaker 1 And it's an OIC, an offering compromise. In order to qualify for that, you have to basically be completely zero net worth and almost no income ability.
So 1% of them go through, folks.

Speaker 1 So those things are scams. Now, that's not the pick on you, Hannah.
You just got taken advantage of. I'm sorry.
And you're scared to death.

Speaker 1 So, but a good attorney that has a tax practice, I have an attorney on retainer that represents us on tax issues, and I have a CPA firm that represents us on tax issues.

Speaker 1 Not because of this kind of issue, but because right now the Bozos owe me a bunch of money that they haven't paid me back on a refile we did.

Speaker 1 So I'm having to fight with them, and I have to have some professional counsel to do that. That's what you need is somebody that's several hundred dollars an hour

Speaker 1 to retain and they will tell you and they will call and represent you and work with the IRS and get a system in place.

Speaker 1 A chapter 13 is a series of 60 payments over five years, obviously, one a month, and it does not reduce the tax bill and it does not reduce the interest with the IRS.

Speaker 1 You're going to pay the whole stinking thing anyway. So if you can negotiate that without bankrupting, which you can, you would be better off.
And I think you can do it faster than that.

Speaker 1 Here's a sensitive question.

Speaker 1 You ready for a hard one?

Speaker 2 Yep.

Speaker 1 Have you all talked about the fact that not paying your taxes has cost you your home yet?

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay. Yep.
So if I'm you,

Speaker 1 I want the IRS out of my life worse than almost anything if I'm you.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And I'd sell that house and put 400K on it.
Now you make 200k thank you now you make 200k and you owe 200k

Speaker 1 and you can plow through that in a couple years

Speaker 1 okay you have your life you have your life back in two years

Speaker 1 okay that's gonna we don't have to file for bankruptcy you're not bankrupt you're not bankrupt because they've already done about all they're gonna do they slapped a lien on the house They may come after some bank accounts or something too, because this is such a large amount, but they won't if you're in active negotiations with them for a payment plan through an attorney.

Speaker 1 They have a sense of decorum about them. They can, but I've never seen them do it in 35 years of doing what I do, go after somebody that's in the middle of a negotiation with a good tax attorney.

Speaker 1 Okay. Now, do you know how to find one?

Speaker 1 Because I'm not positive I know how to tell you other than if you're doing business at that size, you probably have some people in the legal community you're already working with.

Speaker 1 Call them and say, who's the best tax attorney in town that's very smart and

Speaker 1 a little mean?

Speaker 1 Okay. That's what you need.

Speaker 2 Hey.

Speaker 1 They'll put you.

Speaker 1 So if you start making $8,000 a month payments and you throw $400K at this, you'll be done in two years. You understand?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 And you'll get your life back. How long have you been living in this terror?

Speaker 1 It's been a while. It's a while.

Speaker 2 About

Speaker 2 four or five years.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it needs to be over done anyway.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 It's emotionally not sustainable. It's trauma, isn't it? No.

Speaker 1 It's very draining. Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1 I owed them a whole $38,000 when I went bankrupt in my 20s, and it felt the same way you feel because they have so much power.

Speaker 1 All the other creditors, I could put a noose around them and deal with them with the bankruptcy I went through. But student loans and IRS and child support and alimony are not bankruptable.

Speaker 1 You can put them in a 13, but a chapter 7 to wipe them clean is what you've got to do there. And you're not going to do that either.
It doesn't work. So

Speaker 1 you can get through this, but this lack of

Speaker 1 business excellence, lack of diligence on, I'll blame your husband on both of you for not getting your taxes filed.

Speaker 1 It costs you your house, and you can look back and go, man, I learned a tough lesson. You'll get you another house someday.
You make several hundred thousand a year.

Speaker 1 And John, I did the whole segment and you didn't say a peep.

Speaker 3 Hey, there's sometimes I just need to be quiet and listen and learn, learn, man. That's heartbreaking.
Wow. But hey, she's got a path.

Speaker 1 She has a path. She has a path.
It's called Hope. That's right.
And do it. Yeah, because you've been living in the crap so long, you're going to go crazy if you don't.

Speaker 4 That's right.

Speaker 1 You got to get clear of it. This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Well, you've almost missed it.

Speaker 1 It's almost

Speaker 1 sold out.

Speaker 1 We're going on the Live Like No No One Else cruise in March, and if you don't get signed up pretty quick, you're not going.

Speaker 1 It's all the Ramsey personalities, plus Stephen Curtis Chapman, Emmy Award winning, recently inducted into the Grand Old Opry.

Speaker 1 67 Dove Awards. He'll be with us hanging out.
Maniet Schohan from the Food Channel will be with us hanging out. Deanna Carter will be with us as well, country music star.

Speaker 1 Remember the song Strawberry Wine? Yeah, she'll be with us.

Speaker 1 A bunch of other celebrities, but the Ramsey people and those folks will be doing all the shows and all the talks and all the things on the boat.

Speaker 1 So, including our pastors coming and doing a devotional running, Reverend. So, we'll have us

Speaker 1 a devotional on there as well. Got a Reverend sitting in the audience out here.
I was referring to him.

Speaker 1 So, come on. We'd love to have you.
We're going to be at Turks and Caicos, St. Thomas, Puerto Rico, the Bahamas.

Speaker 1 This is the ultimate big-time cruise. This is not the cheap stuff.
This is more of the expensive stuff, and you should not come on this cruise unless you're baby step four and beyond.

Speaker 1 If you're still getting out of debt and building your emergency fund, you're not supposed to be going on vacation. That includes with us.
We're not hypocrites.

Speaker 1 There'll be plenty of time for you to do something else or the next one with us. So the cabins are almost gone.
You can secure a cabin with a $600 deposit at ramseysolutions.com slash cruise.

Speaker 1 You can do the payment later. No, that's not debt.
It's reserving the cabin. Standard stuff in the cruise world.

Speaker 1 And so get over there and get it done. This is going to be a lot of fun.
We're going to be on there all week, all of us all week. My wife, Sharon, and I, we're going to be hanging out with you guys.

Speaker 1 So we're looking forward to it. It's going to be a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 I'll be trapped on the boat with you. I mean, we'll be together the whole week.
I'm kidding.

Speaker 3 Hey, this is my first cruise ever.

Speaker 1 You've never seen it. This is my wife's first cruise.
This is it. Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 Wow. This is it, man.

Speaker 3 We're taking our first cruise together with the whole.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 the whole ship is going to be full of Ramsey people.

Speaker 3 I'm telling you, man.

Speaker 1 You're going to go. Go with the cult.
Go.

Speaker 1 That's the plan. I'm going with that.
And the cult leader, Mason, is in Houston, Texas. Hey, Mason, what's up?

Speaker 2 Hey, guys. Good afternoon.
Thank you for taking my call.

Speaker 1 Sure. How can we help?

Speaker 2 All right, so I'm recently engaged, and I'm in baby step four, five, and six.

Speaker 1 Congratulations. When are you getting married?

Speaker 2 Next year, we're going to plan it so it's not stressed.

Speaker 1 Cool.

Speaker 2 So my question is, once we're married, we can combine our finances.

Speaker 3 It's still going to be stressful, brother.

Speaker 1 It'll stressful.

Speaker 1 We're going to plan it so you have the theory you won't be stressed. Okay, that's all right.
All right. Okay, interrupting you.

Speaker 2 Go ahead. All right.
So my question is, once we're married and we combine our finances, how do we surprise each other with gifts if we're both reviewing the bank statements?

Speaker 1 You're both reviewing the bank statements. You're both reviewing the budget and the budget categories, and we promise to stick to those.

Speaker 1 So we have to to have a category called surprise.

Speaker 1 And,

Speaker 1 or Sharon and I have just a miscellaneous his and her category, just pocket money, so to speak.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 I used to call it blow money, and somebody said on the internet that it was for cocaine. That wasn't what I meant.
So it's blow money. It's his and her pocket money, right?

Speaker 1 And so, um, but you know, um, and

Speaker 1 two, I'll just, uh, it depends on the person and so forth, but I've been married 42 years and I have discovered Sharon doesn't really like surprises. So we go pick out what she wants me to buy her.

Speaker 1 I love it. And that works a lot better anyway.
So I have one time came home with a car for her Christmas present and hid it in the garage. And

Speaker 1 it did not have the desired effect.

Speaker 1 I paid cash for it, but it's still, she would have picked a slightly different car and kind of took the kind of took the buzz off of me giving my wife a car but man i wish there'd been a youtube recording of that

Speaker 1 yeah it was it was she was sweet but just a little passive aggressive david why'd you get blue they did if i if i had been you know but anyway that may not be the case mason with your uh lady she may love surprises uh but also the older you get the more you think alike the more you're going to be able to figure that out so you can have for smaller things like flowers or whatever um you know you can do that the only problem is if she's seeing the debit card stuff pop up, she may see that pop up.

Speaker 5 Yeah, yeah, that's what I was trying to avoid.

Speaker 1 And you just move it to me.

Speaker 1 You can move it to a cash transaction then.

Speaker 1 Meaning, you just cash out your pocket money and keep it in your pocket. I generally got $1,000 in my pocket.

Speaker 2 Okay. Yeah, I understand.
All right, then we're on the same page. I'm happy I cleared that up.

Speaker 1 Yeah, very cool. Good for you.
And hang on. We're going to give you a copy of the Total Money Makeover as a pre-marriage planning gift and help you guys start to work on the whole system together.

Speaker 1 John, how do you all do surprises?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I don't think there's a greater surprise than buying something out of my

Speaker 3 blow money, out of my cocaine fund, as they say on the internet.

Speaker 3 But yeah, I like.

Speaker 1 If you're going to get something expensive, you usually can't get that.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, we've been married for way too long. So yeah, I'm not going to surprise somebody with a car or anything.

Speaker 3 Back in the day, I remember buying a car on payments, like back in the day.

Speaker 1 I did did that too. And I thought I was so.
I bought her a car I wanted.

Speaker 1 That time. That was like

Speaker 1 a kid buying his mother a taco truck for Christmas. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 But yeah, and also

Speaker 3 we don't, we have set days that we go through stuff. And so we're not checking that sucker 24-7.
So I can buy flowers and she's not going to, you know,

Speaker 1 check it every five minutes. That's true.
Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. She's not

Speaker 1 super detailed on it.

Speaker 3 Not, I mean, when we sit down on Sunday nights and go through it or Saturday mornings

Speaker 1 or something, you know, by then the flowers have already been delivered. There you go.
That's good. Patricia is in Chicago.
Hi, Patricia. How are you?

Speaker 2 I'm fine, Dave. Thank you for taking my call.

Speaker 1 Sure. What's up?

Speaker 2 I've listened to your program for years. I'm in this situation, mostly because

Speaker 2 my parents have both passed, and I inherited some money within the last couple of years. So I'm in a situation now where I'm trying to decide if I should pay off the house.

Speaker 2 I'm 70 years old.

Speaker 2 I have approximately $160,000 in an Edward Jones account.

Speaker 2 And I have in checking cash savings in my bank right now, just because I haven't decided what I'm going to do, approximately $115,000.

Speaker 2 I have a monthly income of about $5,900, which is a combination of Social Security and a pension check.

Speaker 2 My monthly expenses are about $4,200.

Speaker 1 I don't know if you're going to have to do it.

Speaker 1 Do you have any other Nest egg?

Speaker 1 Those two numbers you gave me, do you have any other Nest egg?

Speaker 2 I have some, probably some money in some silver.

Speaker 1 Okay, but nothing big. Nothing big.
Okay. No, nothing big.
What's the balance on your mortgage?

Speaker 2 $141. Okay.

Speaker 2 All right. And the reason it's, well, you don't need to know the reason.

Speaker 2 I had a business with an ex-husband, and when we separated, I had to take over part of a laundromat laundromat business.

Speaker 1 Okay. And do you own that? Do you own that still?

Speaker 2 No, I got all that's gone.

Speaker 1 All the rental and all the laundromats gone. Everything's gone but the pain.
Everything's gone but the pain. Okay.
Yes, it was pain, too. I was

Speaker 1 the $141,000, yeah. Okay.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 here's what's running through my head, okay?

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 I love to have you go into

Speaker 1 your final few decades with no no debt because of the peace it gives you, because of the stability it gives your financial situation, and

Speaker 1 you're in a situation where your rent's not going to go up, but even then you'd have zero,

Speaker 1 and that would put up, if you had no payment, that would free up a lot of money in your monthly situation, agreed?

Speaker 2 It would free up about $6.88.

Speaker 2 I just looked it up. I found out how much principal, how much is interest, and insurance.

Speaker 1 How much taxes and insurance.

Speaker 1 Okay, so you could probably invest $1,000 a month going forward if you didn't have a house payment.

Speaker 2 Yes, that's my thought, too.

Speaker 1 Okay, so in eight years, you would have $141,000 in an account if you did that.

Speaker 2 Wow. Okay.

Speaker 1 You're good at your math, Dave.

Speaker 1 Done it before.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 yeah. So you get with a financial advisor, a smartvestor pro at ramseysolutions.com.
If you'll commit to doing that, I would pay it off.

Speaker 1 It scares me in your situation because it doesn't leave you with a lot of money.

Speaker 1 But you got a good monthly situation, you got a good head on your shoulders, you know where everything's going, and I'm real comfortable with you in this because I don't think you're going to overspend and need the other $150,000 that's left after you pay this off.

Speaker 1 So I would pay it off if you commit to $1,000 a month paying to yourself.

Speaker 1 Pay yourself. This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Dr. John Deloney, Ph.D.
in counseling, Ramsey personality, number one best-selling author, my co-host today.

Speaker 1 If you didn't know, you can drop by and watch us do the show Monday through Friday from 1 to 4 Central Time.

Speaker 1 It's on the glass, and it's free. And so is the free coffee, and so is the homemade cookies.
So when you come into our lobby, it smells like Mama's Kitchen instead of corporate America.

Speaker 1 And we'd love to have you do that also on the glass here is where we put the debt-free stage

Speaker 1 where people do a debt-free scream and john and megan are on it and that can mean only one thing hey guys how are you great how are you doing great good good welcome where do y'all live west palm beach florida very nice well welcome to nashville how much debt have you paid off ninety seven thousand eight hundred sixty eight dollars and sixty four cents love it how long did that take 10 months and seven days ten months?

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 3 What'd you sell?

Speaker 5 I have a great wife.

Speaker 1 Saved.

Speaker 6 I saved for a long time, and then we really got serious on our first wedding anniversary, and so I swiped.

Speaker 1 Oh, so you had some big old pile of money to throw at it. How much did you have in savings?

Speaker 6 Maybe about 30,

Speaker 1 30K. I gave it a jump start.
Yeah, good jump start. And what's your household income during this 10 months?

Speaker 5 I started at like $107,000 and got up to $115,000.

Speaker 1 Good. What do y'all do for a living?

Speaker 6 I'm a pediatric occupational therapist.

Speaker 5 Okay. And I'm a bookkeeper.

Speaker 1 All right. Very good.
Very good. Thus he knows everything to the penny.
Yes, he does. Notice that quickly.
Yes. Okay, very good.
So you've been married a year.

Speaker 5 Almost two.

Speaker 1 And what was the thing that happened at the one-year mark and you went, okay, we're going to have to address this?

Speaker 6 We kind of...

Speaker 6 Followed Ramsey separately and we were Ramsey-ish, kind of doing the stuff. And then on our one-year anniversary, we were like, okay, we're just ready.
Let's knock it all out. And it was good.

Speaker 6 Get rid of our student loans.

Speaker 5 Yeah, the student loans coming back was that year.

Speaker 5 Majorists was going to come back. So we were like, this has to get gone.

Speaker 1 I wish they were gone, but they're not. So I got to have to do something.
Yep. So how much of the $98,000 was student loans?

Speaker 1 Oh, it was all student loans. Okay.

Speaker 1 Yeah, these things aren't going away unless we make them go away. It was a realization.
Yeah. 100%.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 3 Hey, good for you guys for riding that federal promise as long as you did, man.

Speaker 1 You got right up to the edge of the cliff, and it's like, oh, we're going over the edge. Yep.

Speaker 3 Good for you guys. All right, so just mechanically,

Speaker 3 did you just have 30,000 bucks squirreled away somewhere that he didn't know about?

Speaker 6 No, he knew about it.

Speaker 1 It would have been way cooler if you're like, all right, I got a secret to tell you.

Speaker 7 No.

Speaker 6 My dad force-fed us the Ramsey podcast on every family trip and rode out.

Speaker 1 Way to go, damn!

Speaker 6 So I was just, I'm a natural saver, so that helped.

Speaker 1 So you're a financial peace baby.

Speaker 1 For sure.

Speaker 1 She kind of is, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Even though you didn't do it, you grew up with it.
That's the point. And John,

Speaker 3 how did you find this crazy crew?

Speaker 5 My sister did FPU in college at Palm Beach Atlantic down there, and she told me about it, and I remember just being, that's weird. Isn't life just debt until you're dead?

Speaker 1 You die?

Speaker 1 Debt until debt.

Speaker 5 But then she kind of talked about that a little bit. And then I made the mistake of going out and buying a car in the heat of a relationship issue with my ex-girlfriend at the time.

Speaker 5 And, you know, after buying that car, I was so like, I don't know, caught up in what's going to happen in the future.

Speaker 5 And so I actually emailed your show years ago, or, you know, Ramsey years ago, just completely down

Speaker 5 about my future. And, you know, they encouraged me.
They messaged me back. And then within, I had a seven-year loan.
Within two years, I paid that car off.

Speaker 1 So we didn't yell at him.

Speaker 3 Nope. And you don't still have that car, do you? No.

Speaker 1 No, I still have it.

Speaker 5 I still have it.

Speaker 1 I paid it off.

Speaker 3 I know, but Megan wants that car gone.

Speaker 1 Megan wants that car gone.

Speaker 5 Yeah, she's still driving her 2007 tour to Camry.

Speaker 1 Now that we're out of debt, now we have a new goal.

Speaker 1 Okay, good. Good for y'all.

Speaker 1 So what did that one year of intensity, or 10 months and seven days of intensity look like?

Speaker 6 It was a lot of intentionality, a lot of looking at the budget, keeping on track with it, and not being afraid to say no. Like, no, we can't do that vacation.
We're not going to go out to eat.

Speaker 6 We want to go line dancing, but the cover is 20 bucks, so we're going to get there two hours early so we can avoid the cover charge, but we'll still hang out.

Speaker 5 A lot of her telling me no to eating.

Speaker 1 That was the big thing. Yeah, eating out.
No, eating out. No eating out.
Because, I mean, y'all threw approximately five, six thousand bucks a month at this. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And you weren't making a lot more than that. So you were on beans and rice.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And because, I mean, that's even after throwing the 30 at it. You still had 60 to go, and you did it in 10 months.

Speaker 3 That's a great photo of them just sitting there eating beans and rice.

Speaker 1 That's our one-year wedding anniversary.

Speaker 3 What an anniversary, right?

Speaker 3 What was it like rolling into your new

Speaker 3 occupational therapy job in an 07 Camry when your buddies know what you make

Speaker 3 or you're a bookkeeper?

Speaker 1 They're like, man, isn't that your old ex-girlfriend's car?

Speaker 1 Like, why are you still driving that car?

Speaker 3 Like, what's it like just

Speaker 3 the human component? Because people look at you where you work like, man, what are you doing?

Speaker 6 I think it was just not being afraid to say, like, you know, this is our situation. This is our reality.
And, you know, we're just really intentional with our money.

Speaker 6 And it's been encouraging and kind of sharing bits and pieces with coworkers and with friends who are like, wait, what are you doing?

Speaker 1 Why are you doing that?

Speaker 6 And kind of opening up the door to, you know, your deadline.

Speaker 1 They do give you the German Shepherd look.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Cock the head sideways.

Speaker 1 How old are you guys?

Speaker 6 28.

Speaker 5 Almost 29 in two days.

Speaker 1 And then I'm 31. 31.

Speaker 3 And you don't know anybody, anything in the whole wide world. Nope.

Speaker 1 How does that feel? Great.

Speaker 5 Feels great. That first month where the bank account went up and then it stayed up was weird.

Speaker 1 That was wild. The weirdest thing, that math.
Yeah. I love it.
Way to go, y'all. So I'm sure mom and dad were cheering you on.
Yes. Who else was cheerleaders?

Speaker 6 So my parents, his parents, and our church small group put up with our same prayer requests for 10 months. Yep.

Speaker 1 Restaurants.

Speaker 1 Lord, we want restaurant gardens.

Speaker 1 Way to go, y'all. Very good.
I'm proud of you.

Speaker 1 You got to feel like

Speaker 1 accomplished.

Speaker 1 Yes, yeah.

Speaker 6 And we're excited. We're going to coordinate our first financial peace class at our church starting next month.

Speaker 1 So it's kind of a fun little ending. So which car are we going to replace first? With Salesforce.

Speaker 5 Oh, that's also the issue. We got a rental car up here, and she started driving it.
She's like, ooh, this is nine.

Speaker 1 We had some upgrade by 2007.

Speaker 1 So probably hers. Probably mine.
The technology has changed in the last century. Yep.

Speaker 1 Yep.

Speaker 1 You don't have to hook a horse to this one.

Speaker 3 Hey, and y'all don't know this yet, but

Speaker 3 life is going to come at y'all.

Speaker 3 And hard things will happen. You'll get tough phone calls.
You'll like, like, life's hard.

Speaker 3 And y'all have built a foundation in year one of your marriage that you don't even realize how thick that concrete is on that foundation. Really good.

Speaker 3 And when it comes, y'all are going to know we can do anything.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 We paid off a hundred grand in 10 months because that's who we are. And we can come, like, we'll join forces and

Speaker 3 it's us against the world. And that's so awesome.
I'm proud of you guys. Thank you.

Speaker 1 Spreadsheets help.

Speaker 5 That was a big thing for me being a bookkeeper. I looked at a spreadsheet.
We had a chart on our wall, a visual representation. I saw it every single day.

Speaker 5 So, I mean, just knocking that out, that made us realize, oh, man, are we ever going to do this to, oh, it's going to take like 14 months.

Speaker 1 Actually, it might be like 10.

Speaker 5 Actually, you know, you know, it whittles it down once you're focused and you see it and you're excited.

Speaker 1 Well, when you get a sense of traction,

Speaker 1 it motivates you to cut deeper. Yeah.
Because I want that traction more than I want that thing

Speaker 1 or that experience or whatever it was I was getting ready to spend money on. The traction means more to me than that.

Speaker 1 And when you do a good visual representation like that and you do you're tracking it and you're right, and you're both on the same page, it's like, you know,

Speaker 1 you know, I saw a bumper sticker said, nothing tastes as good as it feels to be thin. You know, that kind of thing.
I beg to differ. But anyway.

Speaker 1 But yeah. Way to go, you guys.
Congratulations. We're very proud of you.
John and Megan, West Palm Beach, Florida, 98,000 paid off in 10 months and seven days.

Speaker 1 Making 107 to 115 and throwing 30 of savings at it. Count it down.
Let's hear a debt-free scream.

Speaker 1 Three, two, one.

Speaker 1 We're debt-free!

Speaker 1 Yeah!

Speaker 1 That's how it's done, baby.

Speaker 1 Well done.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Today's question of the day is brought to you by Y ReFi. If you're you're in over your head with private student loans and you're tired of getting calls from collection agencies, you need YReFi.

Speaker 1 They refinance defaulted private student loans that other places won't touch, give you a low fixed rate loan that's built customized to you.

Speaker 1 So go to YReFi.com slash Ramsey today. That's the letter Y, R-E-F-Y

Speaker 1 dot com slash Ramsey. Might not be in all states.

Speaker 3 Alright, today's question comes from Carly in Nevada. Carly writes, I'm 30 years old, and my goal for this year was to save money for my first house.

Speaker 3 After finding everything you teach recently, I understand now that I can't buy a house with so much debt. I'm on baby step two and have already paid off my three credit cards.

Speaker 3 During this process, I find myself feeling guilty and stupid for all the stupid mistakes I've made and how I put myself in this position.

Speaker 3 My dream was to have my own house by 30, and here I am stuck with a bunch of stupid credit card debt and really nothing to show for it other than an overpriced car that I shouldn't have bought in the first place.

Speaker 3 I'm very disappointed at myself, and to be honest, this guilt is eating me alive. How do I get past this?

Speaker 3 Ooh, good question.

Speaker 3 Dave,

Speaker 3 I think we have a culture that tries to duct tape and wallpaper and Xanax and Netflix away guilt. And I think guilt can sometimes be a good thing.
I think it can let us know, hey, we made a mistake.

Speaker 3 The challenge is when guilt becomes that shame. And the way I would teach this is: guilt is you picking up a brick or somebody handing it to you and saying you shouldn't have done what you did.

Speaker 3 And that's right.

Speaker 3 I did something dumb.

Speaker 3 Shame is when you take that brick and you put it in a backpack and you decide to carry it everywhere and you say, I am dumb. And so, Carly, I think it's okay to say, man,

Speaker 3 I had this goal and I didn't even know how bad off things were.

Speaker 3 And now,

Speaker 3 what's a house gets you? It gets you peace. It gets you a place to always live, a place that you can close the door and say, this is mine.
It gives you safety and security.

Speaker 3 Well, now you're working towards that goal. And so you don't have the house at 30, but you are on the path towards safety and security.

Speaker 3 And so I want you to hold that guilt, hold that brick, and then set it down and go do the next right thing.

Speaker 3 And the next right thing is to pay off this credit card debt and let these memories remind you anytime it comes up, like I want to buy this car or let's go on this this vacation I can't afford, you're going to remember this feeling, and then we're going to go do the next right thing, and you're going to be a homeowner in the next few years.

Speaker 3 And so just keep on this path. But I think guilt can be a good thing sometimes, and then we have to decide what's the next right move.

Speaker 3 Dave, what do you think?

Speaker 1 I think that's exactly right.

Speaker 1 All the inordinately successful

Speaker 1 people

Speaker 1 that I know that have a fabulous marriage, a fabulous ministry, a fabulous business, there's someone you would look up to and you'd say, that person's successful. All of them are colossal failures.

Speaker 1 They have failed their way into it.

Speaker 1 I mean, the number of missed shots that Michael Jordan has taken is much greater than the number of hit shots.

Speaker 1 Babe Ruth only hit in the 300s, which means that seven out of 10 times at bat, he got out.

Speaker 1 He didn't get on. You know, I mean, so

Speaker 1 70% failure rate, you know, and yet was the king of SWAT, right? So, the, I mean, those are kind of metaphors or motivational speeches, but it is, you know, so failure is guilt to me.

Speaker 1 Failure is I did something dumb. It hurt.
It left a mark. I don't want to do it again.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Shame is I am a failure.

Speaker 3 And that's all I'll ever be, so I'm just going to sit here.

Speaker 1 I'm just, I am a failure. I'm a disaster.
I'm a horrible person.

Speaker 1 And,

Speaker 1 you know, I'll never be anything else. And people in my family, people from the neighborhood that I come from, people the race that I am, the sex that I am, they can never get ahead.
And you embody

Speaker 1 this failure and you name it you.

Speaker 1 And that's what you don't do.

Speaker 1 So I am a person who filed bankruptcy and lost everything. I had a million dollar net worth prior to that, starting from nothing.
bootstrapped it, lost it all by the time I was 28 years old.

Speaker 1 I had a brand new baby named Rachel. Was born in April.
I filed bankruptcy in September. I was definitely a failure as a father to provide a household for my children and my wife to live in.

Speaker 1 I was a failure as a businessman, no question about it.

Speaker 4 I failed those things.

Speaker 1 The end of the story is I didn't continue to fail them,

Speaker 1 the children or the... wealth building or anything else.
I learned from it and I said, okay, God, I was stupid. And stupid hurts.
It leaves a mark, you know?

Speaker 1 But I've never met anybody that was successful that didn't have those marks.

Speaker 1 No one is just like dropped into a little bottle and come out of your little test tube unscathed with no scars and we call you a success. There is no such thing.

Speaker 3 Right. In fact, there's a lot of folks that I work with that say, I don't trust people without scars.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Larry Crabb used to say, I don't trust a man that doesn't walk with a limb.

Speaker 3 You have never gotten a ring. And Dave, I want to call out something else that Carly experienced because this is relatively common.

Speaker 3 Sometimes people don't find

Speaker 3 the Ramsey plan until they're 30.

Speaker 3 And they've been going along, just doing what everybody told them to do.

Speaker 3 And it can be unmooring because the person you lose trust in the most, you lose trust in the system, you lose trust in yourself. And it makes you doubt every next right decision.

Speaker 1 How do I know what the truth is? That's right.

Speaker 3 Because I just built a credit score, like you told me. And I took student loans out, like you told me, and I bought a car on a loan because you told me I can't trust anything or anybody anymore.

Speaker 3 You know what?

Speaker 1 You know, when you're in that situation and you've lost that confidence, what you haven't lost confidence in is your spirit. Your spirit, God's spirit in you, the Holy Spirit will say,

Speaker 1 when you bump into the truth, you feel it. It's in your guts, yeah.
You feel it. It feels different.
It has a peace to it. A peace that passes understanding.

Speaker 1 There's a peace when you bump into the truth.

Speaker 1 When you bump into a lie and it's frenetic and crazy and chaotic and running around and dog chasing its tail and five, 15 kites in the wind bumping into each other. And you're like,

Speaker 1 oh, yeah, let's go do that. Yeah.
Oh, that one always leaves a mark, you know? And so you knew, you knew, but you went forward anyway, you know. And so the trick, Carly, is this,

Speaker 1 the guilt shouldn't eat you alive. That means you're moving over towards shame and self-identifying with this.
Instead, I would say, you know what?

Speaker 1 I did something really stupid, and I don't do that anymore. I don't do that anymore.
That's your new identity. I'm better than that.

Speaker 1 So I was playing golf with a guy in the PGA the other day,

Speaker 1 not this week, but about six or eight months ago. And

Speaker 1 he shoots around 200 par. He's 65 years old.
He's kidding. He's a retired PGA guy.

Speaker 1 He's a serious, serious world class.

Speaker 1 And I hear him muttering to himself. And people cuss themselves on a golf course.
They talk to themselves like nobody should be allowed to talk to themselves, right?

Speaker 1 It's the worst self-talk I've ever seen in my life on a golf course. And this guy guy is muttering to himself.
And I start listening, and I'm like, what are you saying?

Speaker 1 And he said, well, you noticed I missed that shot. And

Speaker 1 I said, well, what'd you say? And he said,

Speaker 1 I said to myself,

Speaker 1 you don't usually miss that shot. You're better than that.

Speaker 1 Instead of like, you suck. You're horrible.
You miss everything. You know, that's what most people do on the golf course, right?

Speaker 1 Instead, and he goes, and then, you know, he'll drop a birdie or an eagle while I'm standing there. And he'll go, yeah, that's what I usually do.

Speaker 1 It's just the opposite. And he said,

Speaker 1 you're telling yourself who you are.

Speaker 3 Your body responds, man.

Speaker 1 That's powerful. Yes.
It's powerful. And I thought, you know what? And I,

Speaker 1 you know, it's easy to get frustrated doing something you're trying to learn. And it's just, you go, no, I don't usually do that.

Speaker 1 I don't usually hit it over there. I usually hit it over here.

Speaker 3 I'll notice the time that

Speaker 3 you and I played golf.

Speaker 3 You didn't say that, what you yelled, but you thought that I could see it.

Speaker 1 I didn't say a thing. I was trying to be real quiet.

Speaker 3 No, and you ducked out of the way when that ball was flying.

Speaker 1 Well, the happy Gilmore swing where you run at the ball is...

Speaker 1 I'm not great at golf. And then there's somebody's child in another county got killed.
It was,

Speaker 1 yeah.

Speaker 3 But anyway. I didn't know you couldn't tee it up on the fairway.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, we told you.

Speaker 1 There you go.

Speaker 3 You should go fishing instead.

Speaker 1 Everything we do with John's an adventure.

Speaker 3 She goes fishing instead.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's it. Yeah.
And

Speaker 1 same thing. Everything gets wet.
So it's either way.

Speaker 3 Hey, man, I did hit that ball hard off the clubhouse. You did.

Speaker 1 You bounced it off the ceiling of the clubhouse. I didn't mean to.
I hit the clubhouse. The guys inside came out.

Speaker 1 I'm easily not embarrassed. I was embarrassed about that shot.
Yeah, I was too. And I didn't even hit it.

Speaker 1 Hey, folks, don't talk to yourself like you wouldn't allow somebody else to talk to you. Amen.

Speaker 1 Quit talking to my friend so-and-so that way. I hear John say that all the time.
Quit talking to you that way. This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Live from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, it's the Ramsey Show. We help people build wealth, do work that they love, and create actual, amazing relationships.
I'm Dave Ramsey, your host, Dr.

Speaker 1 John Deloney, PhD in counseling, Ramsey Personality, number one best-selling author, is my co-host co-host today. Open phones at 888-825-5225.

Speaker 1 The call is free, and some say the advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. John's in Hattiesburg, Mississippi.
Hey, John, how are you?

Speaker 2 I'm good. How are you, Dave? Thanks for taking my call.

Speaker 1 Sure. What's up?

Speaker 2 All right. So

Speaker 2 I gross about $50,000 a year, and

Speaker 2 the only debt I have is about $2,000 in credit card debt. I've got a truck that I have paid off.
It's worth from $8,000 to $1,200. That's from Kelly Blue Book.

Speaker 2 I was wondering if I should sell that truck and pay off my credit card debt and also pay for an engagement ring

Speaker 2 in cash.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 1 You got it bad. I know.

Speaker 1 You are in.

Speaker 1 Love.

Speaker 1 A guy from Mississippi just told me he's selling his truck for a girl. Are you all right, man?

Speaker 1 I won't tell one part.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 2 I work for a pole mill. I'm a forester.
And they pay for

Speaker 2 a truck for me to use, and I can use it for whatever I want. So that's why I'm thinking about paying for her.

Speaker 1 Personal truck. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 He's like, hey, guys, I don't love her that much.

Speaker 1 Slow down.

Speaker 1 Slow down.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to be without a truck, guys. It's okay.

Speaker 1 Oh, you're great. Thank you for letting us poke at you, brother.
We're proud for you, man. That's cool.
Okay.

Speaker 1 So it's a truck.

Speaker 1 It does change the story. So that's good extra information.
It changes the story because it's a truck you don't need.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And that kind of makes it a no-brainer. If it was your daily driver and you needed something to get to work,

Speaker 1 I might tell you to roll up your sleeves, take a side hustle and do whatever and plow your way through the saving for the ring and

Speaker 1 the knocking out the little credit card debt. But you can knock it out in one fell swoop.
Now, the trick is this.

Speaker 1 When the truck sells, all your problems are gone. Credit card's gone, ring's bought, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So it's kind of like you instantly got your butt out of the trap with no pain or little pain except truckless.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Be careful that you don't go back to your old habits. Make sure that the guy in your mirror says, I'm chopping up all these credit cards.

Speaker 1 We're having a plastectomy, a plastic surgery party, no more plastic, no more debt. We're not borrowing money for anything ever again.

Speaker 1 Last time I did that, it cost me my truck.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 You got to get that message in your head, okay? Because a lot of people, if they get out too quick, they just keep doing the same stupid butt stuff and they go right back in debt.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And you don't want to be that guy.

Speaker 2 No, no.

Speaker 1 So how long you been dating her?

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 2 it'll be a year and a month.

Speaker 1 Hmm.

Speaker 1 How much is the ring going to be?

Speaker 2 About $6,000.

Speaker 1 Nice ring.

Speaker 3 It's a lot of ring, man.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you think cut back on the ring?

Speaker 3 Dave, tell me what...

Speaker 1 One month's pay is generally my angle. You're a little over that.
Not too bad.

Speaker 3 Dave, tell me

Speaker 1 there's no correlation between size of ring and length of marriage, except possibly an inverse correlation. The larger the ring, the less likely the marriage is to last.

Speaker 1 Not exactly, but it's the only possible there's no there's no research on it, actually, but there's lots of stories of 70-year marriages, 60-year marriages, 50-year marriages with

Speaker 1 a little tiny chip of a something. But yeah, some worth four or five, six.
You'd be okay. I wouldn't go over that.
That's your max.

Speaker 3 And, Dave, I like the idea of putting $3,000 or $4,000

Speaker 3 in an account in case this work

Speaker 3 his boss calls and says, hey, you can't drive my truck on the weekend.

Speaker 1 You've had enough to do all three.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And

Speaker 1 you start baby step three, building your emergency.

Speaker 3 Don't burn all this money, man.

Speaker 1 Yeah, don't go spending the rest of it.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 I've got about $5,000 in my savings now. And then I've also got about $5,000 in a Roth separate from my 401k.

Speaker 1 Okay, good. Good.
Well,

Speaker 1 you don't touch the 401k or the Roth, but you take the $5,000, the proceeds from the truck, what are left over after the ring and the credit card's gone, and you build your Baby Step 3 emergency fund.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 So, well, good for you. Congratulations.

Speaker 1 We'll give you an engagement gift. It's called the Total Money Makeover Book, and it'll show you guys how to navigate your way through these baby steps.

Speaker 1 And as long as you are willing to sacrifice for this woman the rest of your life the way you are right now, you probably got a shot, my brother.

Speaker 3 I don't want to tell everybody out there who's wondering if this person's the one for me. I want you to remember back to the Mississippi

Speaker 3 guy who sold his truck for love.

Speaker 3 If it's less than that, you need to move on.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
Usually, some of them that call us, it's the other way around. It almost always is the other way around.

Speaker 3 I don't see love like this. I'm kind of getting choked up, Dave.

Speaker 3 This is Mississippi.

Speaker 1 I mean, the only other thing that would be my

Speaker 1 kids.

Speaker 1 If you're from the South like we are and you sell your truck for a girl, it's a big deal. My goodness.
That's a big deal. Yeah.
I mean, some of you Yankees don't understand this, but

Speaker 3 if you sold your bus passing your Tesla, same thing.

Speaker 1 Yeah, sell your thing. If you're from California, you sell your Tesla.
That's it.

Speaker 1 I guess. I don't know.

Speaker 3 Look, Dave's all choked up, man. Dave, you don't have to cry.
It's okay.

Speaker 1 John's in love, man. I got a head cold.
All right. Kyle's with us in Hartford, Connecticut.
Hey, how? What's up?

Speaker 2 Hey, Dave. Thanks for taking my call.

Speaker 2 Actually, from Brooklyn, Connecticut. I thought he was asking

Speaker 2 the city. I don't consider this a city.

Speaker 1 That's fine.

Speaker 2 So my daughter just turned 12 yesterday. We had the talk about saving for her first car because that's what I had to do as a kid.
I don't believe in giving your kids cars.

Speaker 2 It doesn't teach them any responsibility or money management.

Speaker 2 She also got baptized a couple or a week ago.

Speaker 1 Wonderful.

Speaker 2 That has nothing to do with money or anything, but she did end up getting some cards with some money in it.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Good.

Speaker 2 Which obviously has nothing to do with being baptized, but she

Speaker 1 got that.

Speaker 1 Your little girl's becoming a woman. That's awesome, man.

Speaker 1 What a great thing for you as a dad. Here's what we did at the Ramsey House.
We did 401 Dave.

Speaker 1 And what I did was match. So, if you put zero in the account, you're going to get you a bicycle,

Speaker 1 right? Because I'm going to match precisely zero. But if you take that money, some of that money from those cards instead of blowing it at the mall or wherever it is, 12-year-olds blow money nowadays.

Speaker 1 I don't guess people go to the mall anymore, but anyway, when our kids, it was the mall. And so, where you put that money in there, you put $10 in there, it becomes $20 because I'm going to match it.

Speaker 2 Very good idea.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 it was a good incentive plan, and it also kept me in the conversation with them all the time, including I got to guide them through the purchase.

Speaker 1 And that was an interesting experience. I will tell you this for your parents listening out there: put a limit on this idea.

Speaker 1 You might have one little character that's a bookkeeper and saves 30 grand, and he's looking for a $60,000 car. Now, don't do that.
This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Many years ago, we were doing an event in San Antonio, and one of the guys called and said, you know, Max Lakato is in San Antonio.

Speaker 4 I said, yeah,

Speaker 1 God, if I could get to meet Max Lakato.

Speaker 1 And Max and Steve Green met me at a little restaurant down there, down by the Alamo. Steakhouse.
I've still got the picture. That's got to be 20 plus years ago, Max.
At least. That we've been friends.

Speaker 1 At least.

Speaker 4 It's great to see you, Dave.

Speaker 1 Probably about 40 million books ago for you.

Speaker 1 He sold over 100 million Max Locato books. That's pretty crazy.
Wow. My wife bought crazy most of them.
My wife bought most of them.

Speaker 3 My mom's got a whole Max Locato shelf.

Speaker 1 I've got a Max Locato shelf, and most of mine are signed. I'm just telling you, I'm a big dog here.
The new book is What Happens Next? A Traveler's Guide Through the End.

Speaker 1 of this age.

Speaker 1 Man, the end of the age is popping up everywhere. People are talking about it right now.
I I think so. It's kind of in the air.
I've run into several people lately

Speaker 1 and people doing books on their witness. So Henry Cloud just did a book on his personal testimony.

Speaker 1 Willie Robertson just did a book on his personal testimony. I like that one.
Gosspeller. And those guys are friends as well.
And so there's a lot going on here.

Speaker 1 End of the age doesn't feel like a natural Max Lakato topic. What brought this up?

Speaker 4 Well, thank you again for letting me on the program. Always.

Speaker 1 It's great to see you all here.

Speaker 4 It really is. The guy who drove me to the airport the other day, I said, tell me your life story.
And he said, have you ever heard of Dave Ramsey? I said, you're kidding me.

Speaker 4 I'll be with him in just a few days. He said, well, thank him.

Speaker 4 And he told me then about 10 minutes worth of testimony there, Dave, of how he is completely debt-free, except for his mortgage.

Speaker 4 I said, well, hang in there.

Speaker 4 You'll get that one done. So thanks for all you've done for so many.
Yeah, you too, brother. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 4 Dave, you and I are both getting older.

Speaker 4 And one of the things I've noticed as I get older, I'm assuming you're getting older too.

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 1 My body, just not my spirit.

Speaker 4 I am so curious about the next life. I'm just fascinated with it.

Speaker 1 It's like it just. As it gets closer.

Speaker 4 As it gets closer and the clock is ticking and the sand is dropping through the hourglass. I think, what's it going to be like? So that began about five years ago.

Speaker 4 And then I began seeing more and more chaos and confusion in the world.

Speaker 1 And I thought,

Speaker 4 is there something happening in this day and age that's unique to our day and age? And went on a personal study,

Speaker 4 and then they've turned into a series of sermons for the book. And here it is.
It's just coming out right now. What happens next?

Speaker 1 The book,

Speaker 1 the Bible, gives a lot of prophecy in the Old Testament, certainly revelations in the New Testament, or the Revelation with John written on the island of Patmos.

Speaker 1 How do you line that up in a modern world so you can actually try to figure out, okay, what is coming next?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, first of all, I think we point out that this world we're in right now is in a pandemic of anxiety. It's just people are stressed out.

Speaker 4 And there are so many things that contribute to this, as the two of you know so well. But one of them is that people do not know what is going to happen after they die.

Speaker 4 Or they do not know if all the events that we're watching in the world are leading us into or signals or signs of the end times.

Speaker 4 I think one of the great ways to deal with the anxiety of the world is to help people understand that this life is brief, but the next life is great. They just get excited about it.

Speaker 4 And so that was part of my motivation in this. And this book follows a timeline.
I start in the book of Genesis, end up in the book of Revelation.

Speaker 4 So it's the whole Bible and what the Bible provides in terms of a specific timeline of events that will happen before we finally enter what we can call our eternal state or the new heaven and the new earth.

Speaker 4 And I'll just say, I am so energized by what I read, so encouraged and excited. I hope people can get on this excitement train with me because it's something to be thrilled about.

Speaker 1 Book is What Happens Next? A Traveler's Guide Through the End of This Age with New York Times best-selling author Max Lakato.

Speaker 1 Sounds like it's an absolute must-read. I've not gotten through it yet.
I just got it. Well, it just came out.
You sent me my copy. It comes out two days ago, I think, officially.

Speaker 1 Tomorrow's street date. Yes, sir.
Okay. All right, cool.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 you and I, and John was in a Christian college for a while as a dean of students, and we've all three seen some wacky stuff around the rapture and people not living this life well

Speaker 1 in the name of the rapture. You know what I'm talking about? Absolutely.
Like I get people, I don't need life insurance. I'm going to be raptured.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, your wife might.

Speaker 1 You know, and so, I mean, it's just, I get into this kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 So are you,

Speaker 1 this fear of the rapture or this promise of it and somehow they think they figured out it's a certain date? Yeah.

Speaker 4 End times is the Serengeti of theological topics. It's the wild and woolly.
It attracts the crazies and it stirs up the anxiety. And so

Speaker 4 it has been the camping ground of pastoral malpractice forever, right?

Speaker 1 Great word. Wow.

Speaker 1 Great word. You should write.
Wow.

Speaker 4 So you acknowledge that, yeah. But then again, the Bible is about 30% prophecy, much of which has been completed, much of which is yet to be fulfilled.

Speaker 4 So if you want to understand God's message, of course study the gospels. Of course, study the doctrines of the Apostle Paul and John and Peter.
But don't miss out on the end times.

Speaker 4 Don't be intimidated by it. Allow yourself,

Speaker 4 you owe it to yourself to get excited about what's about to happen.

Speaker 4 And I do think that though there are a variety of opinions, Christians can gather around the bodily return of Christ, the promise, the assurance of salvation for the saved, and the ultimate judgment of those who reject Christ.

Speaker 4 Now, in the book, I go into more detail. I talk about the rapture, about the tribulation, about our wedding in heaven, about being rewarded in heaven, about the millennium, about the return of Christ.

Speaker 4 I just follow that sequence, that timeline that I believe the Bible. provides us.

Speaker 4 But whether you agree or not with my timeline, let's get excited about what's about to happen because it's going to be wonderful.

Speaker 1 I can't wait to dig. I know exactly what I'm going to get through that.
That's this week because I leave Sunday for two weeks in Turkey.

Speaker 1 We're visiting the seven churches, the seven churches of Revelation. Perfect.
And a study on the site.

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 1 that'll be ideal. It's a great small group of us going, and I've got a good teacher going with us.
It's going to be a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 So what do you say to the person that's not familiar with the Bible? Maybe they're not a person of faith. And people start talking about the end times.
Sounds kind of like hokey-pokey.

Speaker 1 Like, you know, Jerry Jenkins and Left Behind it was gave us a picture of everything but also got made fun of a lot by people that weren't of faith yeah

Speaker 4 two or three things on that number one our God is a God of great interventions interruptions I mean the great stories of the Bible are stories of God doing what nobody ever imagined that God would do open the Red Sea manna from heaven Elijah calling fire down most of all God becoming a baby and living on earth and dying for our sin raising from the grave.

Speaker 4 And so these miraculous interventions are the nature of our faith. And so Scripture anticipates more of those.
And so it's part of what we believe, that God does extraordinary things.

Speaker 4 And consequently, things like the rapture and the tribulation fit in that genre, not the common day-to-day experiences, but these mighty interventions of God.

Speaker 4 And then secondly, I would say to the person, down deep in your gut, you know this world's not working. Yeah, it's not working.
It stinks.

Speaker 4 I mean, there's so much violence, so much heartbreak, so much heartache.

Speaker 4 And yet from the very beginning in the book of Genesis, God promised a paradise in which men and women, men and women, would get along, would get along with God, get along with nature.

Speaker 4 And though Adam and Eve didn't keep their part, God always keeps his part.

Speaker 4 And that's going to happen.

Speaker 4 It's going to happen.

Speaker 1 MaxLocato.com, the book is available August 13th. That would be tomorrow for most of you that are listening live.
And you can purchase it anywhere. Great books are sold.

Speaker 1 And yet another bestseller, I'm sure. What happens next?

Speaker 1 A traveler's guide through the end of this age.

Speaker 1 I can promise you 100% of what he writes, I will pick up and read. We've been friends a long time, but he's also one of the most grace-filled,

Speaker 1 thoughtful men on the planet that's writing on the subject of Christianity today. So I love it.
Thank you, my friend. Thank you, Dave.

Speaker 4 Great to see you. Great to see you both.

Speaker 1 We love you.

Speaker 1 Give your wife a hug for it.

Speaker 4 And same to your family.

Speaker 1 Be good. Max Lakato, this is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today.
Andrew and Kimberly are with us on the debt-free stage. Hey, guys, how are you? Doing great.

Speaker 1 Welcome. Where do y'all live?

Speaker 5 Hammond, Wisconsin. It's near the Twin Cities in Minnesota.

Speaker 1 Gotcha. Okay, the Minneapolis Marketplace.
All right, cool. Welcome.
Good to have you. And how much debt have y'all paid off?

Speaker 7 $172,000.

Speaker 1 All right. How long did that take?

Speaker 7 Four and a half years.

Speaker 1 Good for you. And your range of income during that time?

Speaker 7 We started at $140,000 and we ended at $280,000 last year.

Speaker 1 Whoa! That's kind of nice. What do y'all do for a living? I'm a construction manager for OGC.

Speaker 5 And then I manage my family's UPIC and A-group tourism berry farm and also sell seed as well.

Speaker 1 Oh, wow. Good for you okay cool what caused this jump in income he had a really good year

Speaker 1 and might have been climbing up as well okay so promotions and a bumper crop yes it's definitely I married up well

Speaker 3 oh that's always the case but you sell seeds from your place we also I go to farmers doors and sell seed to them as well corn and soybeans yep corn and soybeans okay but you got like with with the current rise in preppers you got to be crushing with the home seeds right oh we don't do that Oh, yeah, okay.

Speaker 5 That's completely different. I mean, most of our, with our egg tourism business, it's strawberries, raspberries, pumpkins, corn, maize, all

Speaker 1 the activities. Yep, flowers right now.
They're just wanting to come in and get organic. Amazing.
Yeah. Yep.
Good for you. Very good stuff.
And it's real stuff. Yeah.
Yes.

Speaker 1 Good for you guys. Way to go.
Cool. What kind of debt was the 172? It was our house.
Yeah. Wow.

Speaker 1 Look at weird people. How old are you two weirdos?

Speaker 5 I'm 34, and Kim is

Speaker 1 33. Way to go.

Speaker 3 I like how he paused. Like, are are you going to say it?

Speaker 1 Well, I never know how old I am. So he knows more than me usually.

Speaker 1 I love it. So what's this house worth? About 330.
And you own it, and you're 33 years old. Y'all are so whacked.
I love that.

Speaker 1 We're excited. Yes.

Speaker 5 It's exciting, but our journey is not over yet. We're hoping to build someday.
So still have some big goals in front of us.

Speaker 1 Cool. Cool.
Well, you'll be able to do it after you do this goal. That's a lot.
172 in four years. Yep.

Speaker 7 And we had a little bit of a pause in there. We bought our house in 2019

Speaker 7 and then we saved up for an adoption. So we adopted in 2022.

Speaker 7 So we had a little bit of a pause as we were saving up for that and then hit it really hard in the last year.

Speaker 1 Very good. Good for y'all.

Speaker 3 Just had a little pause. You brought a human home.
That's amazing.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 That's a nice one. That's a good pause.
I like it.

Speaker 1 So what happened five years ago? They kind of put you on this, because what you did is very different. You know that.
We call you weirdos, and that's a compliment around here. For sure.

Speaker 1 It's not derision. But

Speaker 1 so what got you started on this different track from most people?

Speaker 7 Yeah, well, it was actually 10 years ago.

Speaker 5 Yep, we met at college down at UW-Madison, and we were dating. I suggested to her that we go through financial peace together when we were just dating very seriously.

Speaker 5 And so, from a really early start in our relationship, we kind of got on the same page in finances.

Speaker 5 This is our second round of paying off debt after working through the baby sits. You know, baby steps, we she'll know the numbers.

Speaker 1 26,000, 57.

Speaker 5 Yep, we had a truck and then both of our student loans that we paid off in the first round and then began saving the Baby Step House.

Speaker 1 Now you'll get to Baby Step 6 and pay off the house. Yep, exactly.
You're going to be perfect. Yep.

Speaker 5 We're going to be selling our 10-year anniversary in about a week. So, yeah, about a little over a 10-year journey together.

Speaker 1 Now, from 23 to 33, pretty impressive. Nice climb.
Well done. How much in your nest egg, in your 401ks and Roth IRAs?

Speaker 7 About 850.

Speaker 1 So you're Baby Steps Millionaires, too.

Speaker 7 Oh, no, I'm sorry. That includes the house.

Speaker 1 Sorry, network is 850. Net worth is 850.
Okay, so you're almost baby step millionaire. Probably about 18 or 24 months.
Yeah. So by the time you're 35, you will be.
Good. Way to go, y'all.
Way to go.

Speaker 1 Very impressive.

Speaker 3 I'm just thinking of the guts it took as a 23-year-old to look at the woman you loved and said, let's go to FPU.

Speaker 1 Will you take FPU with me?

Speaker 3 She needed 48 hours to think it through.

Speaker 1 That's awesome. Yeah, I jumped right in.

Speaker 7 He was definitely the saver, though. So I was like, oh, is this mean I can't can't spend?

Speaker 1 But afterwards, it was, we were always on the same page.

Speaker 7 And I know how to work the budget to let me spend, and he knows how to just save.

Speaker 1 So we're a good, happy medium.

Speaker 3 What was your biggest obstacle in paying your house off?

Speaker 7 Probably just stopping for the adoption.

Speaker 7 That was super hard to just want to pay that in cash and having to save up all of that money as you're only paying minimums on the mortgage and seeing how long it might take if we had to stay on that track.

Speaker 7 But as soon as we were done and Luca was home and finalized, it just skyrocketed as we went past that. So

Speaker 7 definitely hard to take that baby or the break in the baby steps, but totally worth it.

Speaker 1 A break in the baby steps for a baby.

Speaker 1 Sounds fair. Definitely worth it.

Speaker 1 Where's Luca from? Honduras. Okay.
Very good. Very good.
Good for you guys. Well done.
What do you tell people the key to paying off your house by the time you're 33 is?

Speaker 5 I'd say for us, it's being on the same page as first.

Speaker 1 Yeah, like pre-marriage counseling for you. Basically, it was.

Speaker 5 Yep, we've coordinated three times.

Speaker 5 Thank you.

Speaker 5 You know, the Financial Peace University, and that's definitely helped us as much as the people who have gone through it, if not more, just keep us on the same page and get me refreshed back into it.

Speaker 5 You know, it's very much in the budget. It's sometimes a little struggle for me to make that a priority.
But, you know, I'm always on the same page.

Speaker 5 Usually financially, it's just a matter of taking the time to

Speaker 5 get into the details.

Speaker 3 Can I ask y'all a weird question? Of course. This is in no way to disparage anyone who's ever been on the debt-free stage.
Y'all two seem like you genuinely like each other.

Speaker 3 And I don't mean like y'all are just like in love.

Speaker 3 What's the secret? Y'all look like y'all are friends. And it's emanating through this glass here that y'all genuinely like each other.
Yeah.

Speaker 7 He supports me a bunch, especially even this year. My job's kind of crazy.
So he is behind me 100%.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it's been a really good year, but it's also been a really busy for here. And we've got amazing parents and all of them have helped out there in their own way.

Speaker 5 It's been a huge part of it to help us along.

Speaker 1 Can ask for better support from our family and friends.

Speaker 3 And Dave, I love that I asked him that question, and they both spoke of somebody else speaking to them.

Speaker 3 Neither of them said, well, I and both of them are, you just seem like humble, kind, lovely, wonderful people. And I'm just smiling ear to ear.
I'm so grateful for you.

Speaker 1 Thank you.

Speaker 5 Pretty cool, but I also want to share, like, it's... Our lives aren't perfect.

Speaker 5 Of course not. Yeah, the adoption journey was a lot,

Speaker 5 a lot for us.

Speaker 1 Oh, it's a lot.

Speaker 5 You know, you're seeing the highlight reel is something we're sharing now, but it's been 10 years of working through

Speaker 5 challenges day to day. And, you know, it's crazy when it kind of happened.
It was like a surprise almost, like how fast it came up, but

Speaker 5 it was a long journey.

Speaker 7 Yeah. Yeah, we were planning for 2030 and then we were planning for 2026 and then it was 2024 and we're like, whoa, we're done.

Speaker 1 Right here. Here it is.

Speaker 1 Here it is.

Speaker 3 Now you're in a great position that when life throws you a new curveball,

Speaker 3 man, you're on a foundation that's going to hold. It's so beautiful, man.
Congratulations.

Speaker 1 Thank you. So it occurs to me that if anybody didn't think you were doing something right, it wouldn't have bothered you at all.
No. So even if you had naysayers, it was like, what?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I travel for work and they're all. Who gives you a vote?

Speaker 7 They're all, you should have a Delta credit card. And no, thanks.
I don't need to go into the lounge.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 yep, I hear you, but we're good.

Speaker 7 We're good being over here doing what we want to do.

Speaker 5 I don't know how many people, when we used to live in Iowa and had amazing renters that we rented a house from and just treated us like their own grandkids and how many people said you should buy a house you should buy a house you should buy a house and we waited until it was like good timing for us and even beyond that a little bit and made sure we were really financially set for that changed everything a huge thing that I just have to share is like don't give into the pressure of you know what everybody else is saying do what what fits your family the best people who have successful lives are very careful about who they give a vote to

Speaker 1 not very many people yeah not many if any if anybody but not many for sure blessed that two of them are talking to us right now

Speaker 5 i'm a really big john fan dave you're pretty culture

Speaker 1 me too there you go i'm a big john fan congratulations y'all we're very proud of y'all all right bring the kiddos up let's introduce them with their names and ages how old is mr luca he is 18 months go luca go baby i love it And how old is the princess, and what's her name?

Speaker 7 She is Peyton, and she's seven.

Speaker 1 All right. She's a big seven.
Way to go, Big Big Peyton. Good stuff.
All right. Andrew, Kimberly, Peyton, and Luca.
$172,000 paid off. 33 years old with a paid-for house.

Speaker 1 Did it in four and a half years, making $140,000 to $280,000. Count it down.
Let's hear a debt-free scream. Three, two, one.

Speaker 1 We're debt-free.

Speaker 1 And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you do it. I love it.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 1 Dr. John Deloney, Ramsey Personality, is my co-host today.
Sometimes you can be sitting right next to someone, but feel a thousand miles apart.

Speaker 1 We created questions for humans conversation cards as a tool to help you connect on a deeper level with the people you love. Dr.
John's idea, he created almost every one of them.

Speaker 1 Some of the team jumped in and helped him. And these things have blown up.
Millions of dollars of these have been sold, helping people start a conversation. Questions for humans, conversation cards.

Speaker 1 So we've got them for couples, for

Speaker 1 parents and kids. And for friends.
And for friends. And for the month of August, they're only $12 a set at Ramseysolutions.com going on in the sale.
John,

Speaker 1 When y'all first came and told me you were doing this, I thought, well, that's cute.

Speaker 1 And it has turned out you have really touched the nerve of people don't know how to sit down because of these stupid cell phones.

Speaker 1 They have lost the art of having a conversation person to person.

Speaker 1 And they need a tool to help them.

Speaker 3 That's it. And I think it's easy to blame people.
And the next best thing or the thing better than blaming is to say, okay, here's a tool. And here you go, man.

Speaker 1 We'll help you with it. And we realize there's a problem.
And it's a really sad situation, actually. And yet this has been a lot of fun, a lot of humor around it.
People are giggling.

Speaker 1 We get them out and use them sometimes in a meeting around here. And, you know, some of the answers are hilarious.
And you get people, it's almost like an icebreaker.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And my favorite thing is I can get in the car and my wife says, hey, will you take our daughter somewhere with, can you take her to the hardware store with you?

Speaker 3 I know that just tripled the time it's going to take me to get to the hardware store. And I get that Sunday afternoon dad, that heaviness.
And my daughter can feel it.

Speaker 3 And she'll just grab these out of the glove box and say, hey, dad, I'm going to ask a question.

Speaker 3 And I drop my shoulders, and she asks a question, and we laugh, and I ask one back, and it ends up being a way that we can come back together. It's just cool, man.

Speaker 1 I just love it. Get off the task and on to the relationship, on to the most important stuff.
Yeah, exactly. Questions for human cards on sale right now, ramseysolutions.com in the store for 12 bucks.

Speaker 1 And get you several different sets. They've got them for everything: couples, dating, parents, and kids.

Speaker 3 I pull out a friend question: Dad, what's Dad, Dave? What's one song or album that makes you super nostalgic?

Speaker 1 Hmm.

Speaker 1 Hmm.

Speaker 1 You know, I have that experience pretty regularly just on the 70s channel. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, and one of the things I like on that, it'll pop up on XM or even if I'm on Spotify, it'll pop up and show the year that song came out. And I go, God,

Speaker 1 you know, when... When he did Time in a Bottle, I was 12.

Speaker 1 Because I remember being deeply in love.

Speaker 1 That's right. When Croce did Time in a Bottle, really? I was 12 because I felt like I was 22.
But I wasn't. It was 1972.
You know, I love that because it helps you do that.

Speaker 1 Sharon, I'll be riding along and we'll say, we were 14 and didn't know each other when that came out. Yeah.
And there was some crush in middle school or something that's tied to that.

Speaker 1 So that happens all through the 70s stuff. Yeah, for sure.
Especially the mid, you know, mid-70s stuff or even the early that played in the mid. Yeah.
That kind of of thing, right?

Speaker 1 So that was our teenage years. So yeah, that that's cool.
That's fun. That does do that, though, for sure.
Open phones here at triple eight eight two five two two five. Amanda is in Knoxville.

Speaker 1 Hi, Amanda. Welcome to the Ramsey Show.

Speaker 2 Hi, Dave and Dr. John.
Thank you for taking my call.

Speaker 1 Sure. What's up?

Speaker 2 I have my husband and I had about $91,000 in debt, and I'm looking at starting a side business, freelance grant writing for nonprofits, and wanted to know what are some things to keep in mind when I start the side hustle and how do I go about finding clients?

Speaker 1 Have you, it sounds like something you found on the internet.

Speaker 2 Actually, I have

Speaker 1 done it as part of my business before

Speaker 2 on the

Speaker 1 public side. You've just done the grant writing side.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, I haven't done it for, you know.

Speaker 1 Okay, so anytime we're doing marketing, we do what we call a persona of what the customer looks like. So who needs grants written, typically? What does this customer look like?

Speaker 2 In my area, it's a lot of animal shelters and

Speaker 2 like United Way has a lot of grants and nonprofit side that they do. So there's a lot of various

Speaker 2 Tennessee, there's a lot of various nonprofits in the area.

Speaker 3 Can I throw you another one that would be even bigger where you are right now?

Speaker 3 Sure. The lifeblood of a research university professor is grants.

Speaker 3 And the thing that I didn't learn how to do through two different PhDs was how to write and secure a grant.

Speaker 3 So if you were to advertise at the local university and you're right next to a monster school there in Knoxville, if you were to advertise,

Speaker 3 I assist with grant writing services, you may have more work than you know what to do with.

Speaker 1 Yeah, jump on some of the grad Facebook pages or post-grad workbooks. Coffee

Speaker 3 put up signs.

Speaker 1 Yeah, anything you can do to get a hold of a Ph.D. candidate or even a Ph.D.
A new professor, yeah. A new young professor that's trying to get tenure.

Speaker 1 And if you can help them write them and even secure them, you have a gold mine at your fingertips there.

Speaker 1 The nonprofits, what you're looking for there is a mid-range non-profit. A super small, primitive, poorly run non-profit will not get the grant, even if you write it for them.

Speaker 1 The super big ones like a United Way, they do their own. They don't need you.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 But somebody,

Speaker 1 you know, a school trying to get computers,

Speaker 1 that kind of thing, you will get that. But the big nonprofits, you're looking for something kind of in the middle.

Speaker 1 Something that's established and they're good at running their nonprofit, they're good at fundraising in general, but they want to supplement their budget with some new grants and they're already raising $1 to $10 million a year.

Speaker 1 That's a good size. But if you get something like United Way, where you're talking about hundreds of millions, they don't need you.

Speaker 1 Okay. So you're shopping among ministries primarily.

Speaker 3 School principals.

Speaker 1 Yeah, school principals, especially

Speaker 1 private schools,

Speaker 1 hospice,

Speaker 1 anything like that.

Speaker 1 And you're just going to go out there and put the word out. And what will happen is, as you fish in these different ponds that we're giving you, you catch a couple fish in each pond.

Speaker 1 They'll spread the word to the rest of that pond. And you'll end up with one that really starts being a gold mine.

Speaker 1 One of the areas. We don't know which one it is yet.
And another one that's like number two, another one's like number three, and then the other one won't be worth fooling with.

Speaker 1 And it might be the one you thought was going to be good. But that's what you do.
And Amanda, when it comes to getting new clients, there is no substitute for activity.

Speaker 1 I want you to get rejected a lot.

Speaker 1 I don't want you to get rejected in your mind and do nothing and sit and be paralyzed by the prospect of being rejected. I want you to really get turned down a lot.

Speaker 1 Like if you get turned down 100 to 200 times in the next 12 months, you'll make a really good living during that 12 months and you'll learn a lot about who needs your service and who doesn't and how to customize it and tinker with it to get it there.

Speaker 1 But the thing that someone that doesn't come from a marketing background needs to get used to is the sign of success in your world is massive amounts of failure.

Speaker 1 Massive amounts of rejection equals you get to do this or you don't. If you go talk to four people and four people turn you down and you quit, you didn't understand what I just said.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I've seen people be successful not by, I need to book five clients this month. I need to make 200 phone calls this month.

Speaker 3 And the client booking will generally take care of itself or you've got a bad product.

Speaker 1 Exactly. And not phone calls where you leave a message, phone calls where you talk to somebody.
Right. Or you drop by and bring them a cup of coffee.
Hey, everybody, I brought Starbucks.

Speaker 1 And come in and try to get a meeting with the director of the nonprofit and go, hey, this is what I do. Oh, you don't, you don't have a need.
Who does? Who do you know that does?

Speaker 3 By the way, I've secured this many millions of dollars in grants before I can help. Yeah.
Man, you may have a line out your door in that community.

Speaker 1 If you get a year where you got $10 million worth for some group of people over time, you go, last year I got $10 million in.

Speaker 1 People go, huh?

Speaker 1 Have a seat.

Speaker 3 We'll buy you coffee.

Speaker 1 Yeah, wait a minute. Wait, we're out here.
We're going to get donuts. Yeah.
To go with the coffee. That's the thing.
But all of that comes from massive amounts of no's

Speaker 1 because your ratio is probably going to be a 95% no ratio. And 5% is where you're going to make your living and you don't know who it is.
I'm guessing, but I'm probably not wrong.

Speaker 1 This is the Ramsey Show.