Was Vogue Wrong to Publish a Fake Model?

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Hello and welcome to this episode of the Resters Entertainment Questions and Answers Edition.

I'm Marina Hyde and I'm Richard Osman.

Hello Marina.

Hello Richard how are you?

I'm very very well.

I have a number of questions.

Can I start with one that's right up your street?

Yes.

I see the title Parliamentary Lobby System and I think Marina Hyde.

Many asked this.

I solicited this question.

That's pretty clear last week.

Now this question is from Al Marston or could be AI marston marina you asked for a question on the parliamentary lobby system last week when talking about the royal rotor so what is the parliamentary lobby system that's that's the way to ask a question how long have you got al because like the royal rotor it is a system of accreditation of for journalists to cover a particular thing in this case the workings of parliament and the government so it's used as sort of a channel of communication between the government but particularly downing street and the press and if you're in it you get a lobby pass and you work on the lobby corridor the lobby corridor?

That's confusing.

Does it come off the lobby?

It's named after the members' lobby

in the Palace of Westminster, where you just said the Palace of Westminster.

I'll come on to that in a minute because actually it is a messminster.

Oh, Manda, you're listening?

Palace of Messminster.

Anyway, the members' lobby is where politicians and members of the press can interact freely.

A bit like the mixed zone in a football match.

It's like Box Park and Croydon.

Yeah.

Yeah, just like that.

The lobby system comprises daily briefings at 11 and at 3:45, which are conducted by the Prime Minister's official spokesman.

That's the sort of rubric of it all.

But I asked Rob Hutton, who is for many, many years a lobby correspondent for Bloomberg, and he now writes really funny parliamentary sketches, which are so good.

He's such a great person for the critic, he writes, and they're very, very good.

I mean, the whole thing is falling down, as in the whole of the Palace of Westminster, is falling down.

You know what I call it?

I grew up at the Palace of Mestminster.

Great, that's a good one.

Many times the journalists have tried to get a cat because there are so many mice in the office and in the offices.

But basically, the lobby.

So, okay, this system.

Parliament is like Hogwarts.

It's a place, therefore, that you instinctively understand if you're male and went to public school.

And you're a Slytherin.

Yeah, and you're a Slytherin.

Exactly.

And if not, it can be a very unfriendly place.

There are various rules of what you're allowed to do when you're in the lobby and how it all works.

But those meetings are crucial.

The lobby briefings, which are, as I say, in the morning and the afternoon.

Obviously, the criticisms of the lobby are that it's this cozy club and they all work together.

It's hard because they sit with those people sometimes for sort of 30 years.

They don't sit with their newspapers, which are located somewhere totally different.

So these are the things that are.

So their office is their houses of parliament.

Yeah.

Then you have to troop over to the many of us think of as the Allegra Stratton Memorial Briefing Suite.

Do you remember that during Partygate?

Basically, Boris Johnson wanted to break it at all costs to form a report.

I like people who like to disrupt and break things.

Yeah.

I love that.

I'm very much looking forward to them putting everything back together again, but

the breaking of it, I've loved.

Yeah, like someone once said about Stalinism, you know, okay, I see all these broken eggs.

Now, where is this omelette of yours?

Anyway, wanted to break the lobby, and they constructed this huge sort of nearly three million pounds, this briefing suite.

They wanted to televise the press briefings, which the lobby briefings, which I think is absolutely wild.

I know why they wanted to do it, because you look at what happens at the White House.

The White House briefings are all televised.

Everyone gets one question, and it's incredibly genteel.

What they wanted to do was kind of civilize the process and make them behave better.

The key thing about the lobby briefings is that they have a system where you don't change the subject until it's quite clear that the whole pack want it to change and you're not allowed to say or tweet or do anything about it until the meeting has fully ended.

So you hold the floor so people can just keep going and going and going on the same subject and everyone can ask a question.

And so the pack thing works well in that way and they wouldn't have allowed that if they televised it, which they're always trying to do because it's a way of controlling it.

It can go on for an hour like that of people doing it.

But what happens?

That's like the question and answer thing at the end of a book festival.

Yeah.

That could go on for an hour if you really let it.

What people criticise the lobby for is the cooperation.

You work together for a long time.

As you're trudging back from the briefing, you're saying, okay, what's the line?

You're always trying to say, what's new?

Because that's today's, you know, where's the movement?

And because of the way politics is done in this country and particularly political reporting, you're talking about millimeters all the time.

And presumably it's what they've said, but also what they didn't say.

Yeah,

what they've said before is that...

So they're all saying, is that new no hang on he said that six months ago they also obviously all have their own stories that they're working on separately yes they're not then they're not sitting around this this is not the only job is listening to these two briefings and no no not writing them down it's i mean it's i mean in many ways it's the least worst system but the the big enemy of course as always is the news desk that is what leads to lots of the stories being very similar because no disrespect to the many of the great news desk figures this is going to be i feel like there's going to be a lot of respect here but i'll tell you what people on the news desk love something they don't have and when they, the new editions of the papers or whatever, they go online, they love what they don't have.

So they want to know, why has the Times got this story and we don't have that?

It's like, yeah, because that's one of the Times' hobby horses, and they're going to be really interested in that.

And that's why they've written it up in that way.

So what Rob said is that he ended up writing a huge amount of defensive copy because you can see from the briefing, oh, the son have asked 10 questions about this.

They're going to go really big on that tomorrow.

So you think, I would rather write up this version of the story for whoever in a way that will at least address what the son are are going to go really big with tonight.

So they can't do it.

Because otherwise I'll be doing it at 10 o'clock at night.

So those lobby journalists,

quite apart from just listening to what the Prime Minister's spokesperson is saying, are also spotting what stories some of the other papers might have by working out what questions.

Yeah, and so that perception of groupthink in part is a response to, you know, you're all interested in the same subject.

And actually, if lots of people asking questions from different angles can sometimes throw up something really interesting, you know, if someone else has gone really big on something, you're going to be getting a talk call at 10 o'clock saying, well, why didn't we have that?

And it's the same in football, does the same, by the way.

I mean, they would carve up lots of different things all together and all agree on it because nobody wants to be at sort of 3 a.m.

in a different time zone and say, why have the sun got this and you haven't?

So there is some sharing and people look out for each other.

Rob remembered one day when he was thinking, he rang his wife and said, I've sort of finished.

I think, I'm going to go home.

And rang his wife and said, I'm going to go home.

And Mike White, who used to be the political editor of The Guardian, literally ran down the corridor after him and said, don't go home.

And he said, why?

And he said, said, just sit at your desk, don't do anything, just sit at your desk.

And then there was a really big reshuffle of that.

So he knew, he didn't tell him that there's going to, you know, there was going to be one, but he made sure that he didn't actually go home.

So there's a sort of camaraderie.

And is that the same Mike White who later wrote The White Lotus?

Yes, one and the same.

Don't say there's no second acts in political history.

And it's the School of Rock, of course.

And not having it televised is good.

Yes.

And I mean, as we say, the White House ones are just a complete wank.

They're just completely useless.

Christopher Hope from The Telegraph, now at GB News, but almost the last question for such a long time Rob was remembering was,

yeah, but did David Cameron borrow a horse from Rebecca Books and go riding on it?

And it was like battered away for honestly weeks, months, and he's just asking at the end every single day.

Did he?

And in the end, yes.

The principle is you do not change the subject to your question if unless you're sure that the whole group has finished on that subject.

And that allows for much better scrutiny than, as you can see, what happens in the White House briefing where they allow certain people to be excluded and the journalists don't stand in solidarity.

I mean it's a mess and their journalism takes itself so seriously.

If anybody at home, I know you asked for this question to be asked this week and I can see why that was fascinating, but if anyone at home wants to ask us if we've ever borrowed a horse from Rebecca Brooks, that would be a good question for next week.

It'll be like a really short one.

And sent it back in a poor condition, I believe.

Did he?

Yes.

It was a police horse, I think it was called.

Wasn't it called Raisa?

It was named after Raisa Gorbachev.

I don't know if I remember this.

Oh my God, this story is suddenly amazing.

And sent it back in in a bad condition.

Oh, you can't send a horse back in a bad condition.

Well, David Cameron can.

You have to send him back in a stable condition.

Okay, this is one for you, and a really hard one, actually.

A good observation from Harriet Grace.

I have a theory that being in cold play but not being Chris Martin is the best job in the world, or at least in entertainment.

You get to live out your best rock and roll life, playing to massive audiences and getting paid handsomely for it.

But you also rarely get asked to have to do promo, and you can probably still pop to Tesco's without getting hassle because nobody recognises you.

What do you think the best job in entertainment is?

God, Harriet, that's a great call.

I mean, that might be the best job in it.

I know exactly what.

I mean, some people want to be in entertainment to be famous, and then therefore being one of the other people in ColdPlay is not the best job.

Then I guess being Chris Martin would be the best job.

But yeah, I think if you want the joy of being in a creative industry and you want absolute load of money and you want huge amounts of adrenaline, but you can also walk down the street, then being in cold play is quite hard to beat that as a job in show business.

I think

that would be very, very high honorable.

To have the live stage experience and all of that is, yeah, I would say.

You do have to do loads of promo, I'll say that.

Even if you're the bassist in ColdPlay, you're doing promo like constantly.

My brother was telling me about I'm in the middle of signing books at the moment and I'm doing like 18,000.

My record was 38,000 because every country in the world wants signed books because and every indie bookseller.

So you try and do as many as you possibly can.

You know, I can do about a thousand an hour.

My brother was telling me that ColdPlay have just signed 150,000 albums each.

Each.

Yeah, 150,000, which feels like an impossibility.

I always thought that the best job in Showbiz, if what you want is the glamour when you want it and not when you don't want it, if you want a lot of money, if you want everyone to know your name but not know your face, I always thought like being John Grisham.

Would be amazing because people who know John Grisham know him.

Or Sia.

Sia.

Oh my god, that's perfect.

So if you're John Grisham, you know, know, he's made hundreds of millions.

If he ever rings up a restaurant where you can't get a table and says, it's John Grisham, they go, oh, I John Grisham.

Of course you can have a table.

But, you know,

he can walk down the street fairly unless you're a little bit more.

I can't do you an E-Fit of him.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

So, you know, if you read the books, you know what he looks like on the back of the books.

And so fans will stop you every now and again.

But most people don't pay that much attention to what authors look like.

If I am in America, it's just a joy because I don't get stopped on the street and all that kind of stuff.

But if you're stopped at customs and they say you're an author and you tell them who you are, people have heard of you and have read the books.

So it's like you are John Grisham, but for America.

You just have a whole holiday where you can do exactly what you want, where you want.

I would say being John Grisham, Andy Peters,

who is such a lovely fella and just gets to do those competitions on

GMB and, you know, that's a nice gig and everyone loves him.

And, you know, he's been in that world for so long and, you know, is a door by everyone that's a nice job to have i would say like those magazine journalists from the kind of 80s who'd be paid millions and millions and millions and wouldn't really have to do anything apart from go around the world and be completely unbothered being like

yeah being like a travel blogger something like that where everyone knows who you are so you get to spend your entire life on holiday wherever you go on holiday people absolutely love you but outside of your sphere no one would necessarily recognize you.

That would be a nice entertainment job.

Just depends what your values are.

Adjusting each of those dials would lead to a different job.

But I do think the other people in Goldflick is quite good.

But as you say,

they work harder than you think.

What's the difference between being a podcaster and being economist?

People stop me all the time, Nate.

And I've never had that, I don't think, really, at all.

I've never had that.

Sometimes I would, you know, if I was wandering around Islington joke.

But

you know what I mean.

But this is a nice kid because we're very fortunate in that

the people who consume what it is you do are very important as well.

Because for this,

I've never had a non-nice interaction with people who listen to the thing.

And people are always interested, interesting.

They've always got something to tell you.

How many times do people mention Glenn Powell to you now?

Well,

not enough times.

Not enough.

You know, by all means, come and chat, Glenn Powell to me.

It's one of those rare questions where Harriet might have absolutely nailed it in the question.

Being one of the other guys at a cold play

must be one of, you know, because what a joy.

You're still in a gang with your mates.

You're doing this incredible stuff that you believe in and that you're proud of.

You know, every year it's bigger and bigger and bigger.

You're not really spending a huge amount of time in the studio.

It's like being in the masked band that we talked about or the heavily made-up bands.

But anyway.

Which, again, for some people would be a nightmare because they want to be famous.

Yeah.

I mean, most people who start out in rock music do actually want to be famous.

Being easily disguisable, I think, would be useful.

I'm very, very hard to disguise.

Or the other best job maybe is somebody who does loads and loads of voiceovers.

It is alarmingly well paid still.

People don't really know it's you.

You get to you just go into Soho.

There's very little, very few jobs in TV now where you don't have to

be made up and do your hair and worry about what you're wearing.

You know, you go on radio shows.

People do that for a Zoom now.

I know.

But like

voiceovers, it's the last thing where you just you rock up to a lovely studio, someone brings you tea and toast, you read out a script, and there are people who do that full-time day in, day out.

That's a nice entertainment gig.

Right.

Shall we go to a break yes that was a long first art it was it was yeah

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Welcome back, everyone.

Marina, this is a question that I'm really, really interested in.

So thank you, Could Do Better, who's written on the Wrestler's Entertainment Discord.

He says, I'm curious what you both make of Vogue's choice to include an ad featuring an AI model in their recent issue.

Where's the line between photoshopping a real-life model to death to get the look that companies are after and just cutting out the middle man or woman altogether?

That is a really good question.

Do you know what?

This is a really fascinating one.

And it's a huge thing now.

And we're right in it.

If you didn't see this, this was a guess ad that ran in Vogue.

They disclosed it.

You have to disclose it under, certainly under EU law anyway.

And it said, produced by Sarah Finn Valora, which who are an AI agency on AI.

I don't know what they thought the reaction would be but the reaction has been really big in the sort of fashion community and there's been a huge backlash basically.

The agency Seraphine Valora who

was a London based they're an AI agency there were just these two women that I saw them interviewed on the BBC and they said you know we were asked by a guest to do this and we did it

but the backlash has been significant enough that Condé Nasty the parent company of Vogue issued a statement to CNN saying that an AI model has never appeared editorially in Vogue.

Okay, obviously this is going to be a huge thing.

I totally agree with you that things are so photoshopped and have been so modified that what did you expect would happen?

And I almost feel, I mean, you know, it's almost like a sort of short story with a painful moral that if you do,

women particularly have been modified in this way for so long that eventually this is what happened.

But, you know, I can see the benefit of it.

They eliminated the casting director the location manager the model every single shoot technician the travel which they of course they're now selling this as a sustainable and carbon neutral way you know but you know oh yeah because AI is famously carbon neutral

neutral Richard and then you don't have the retoucher and also it saves time because when any of one of these shoots happen and I was talking to someone who basically commissions these things for a Vogue title.

There's so many weeks of back and forth in terms of how it will look and when it eventually goes in as a campaign.

This happened really quickly.

You presumably can show a client 30 different models in one set.

You know, you just

have to have these ethical issues with it.

And they're now saying, oh, we can be much more diverse because we use certain platforms.

There's a thing called Fairface.

And so the proprietary scans come from diverse models.

It's less carbon heavy than having to take everyone on a photo shoot.

I mean, in some ways, fashion has done it to themselves.

I remember the first time I ever went to a high fashion show, which was in the 90s, and a friend of mine was a very successful model and it was so weird.

You suddenly realize that it's like an alien race, the models.

They're not like us at all.

You can't really almost, it's like a separate species and they kind of look incredible and whatever, but you don't really almost feel like you're the same as them.

It's so extraordinary.

So we know it's unrealistic, but that's fine and I get that and it sells the clothes and it's wonderful.

And then of course all the retouching became such a big issue because you could do far more than you ever could when people were literally sort of painting things out in the old days.

Digital changed everything.

I think in 2016, that Lil Michaela, the CGI influencer came in.

And I mean, lots of people have been photographed with her and she's been used to sell all sorts of things.

H ⁇ M recently said they're going to twin models so that they can use then your digital likeness in a way.

But if you think of the size of e-commerce platforms now,

and how many pictures are on, say, the Zara website.

Are you going to dress a model up in every single one of those, light her, make her, change it, change the look, do the makeup again for every single one of those items when these people are selling kind of thousands and thousands of things?

Now, for a small business as well, if you want to start your small business, you know, I know all the drawbacks of all this stuff, but you have, you know, fashion has always been a kind of quite remorseless business.

You can get an AI model for...

in the US, $5 a day.

And you can get a model model for, if you want to get quite a good one, for $5,000.

Well, that's the issue across most industries it's all very well you know for guess and vogue which are huge and conde nasa who are absolutely huge to listen to a backlash and to put things in place but our culture doesn't work from the top down anymore it does work from the ground up and it is going to happen time and time and time again that as you say if you've got a small company or a small campaign or something like that you are going to use ai models because you can and because suddenly the barriers to entry are much lower so you're going to do that so that's going to happen happen happen from the ground up from the top down you're going to say we can't we can't we we can't.

At what point does the line come?

At what point do we say everything above here, we don't use AI models, everything below here, we do use AI models.

It's sort of impossible, especially other countries will have, it's going to be absolutely impossible.

Well, the other country thing is fascinating because so many of these globalized businesses, so one of the things that allows you to do is tailor it to your regional audience.

So say you're selling, Zara is selling something.

I'm just using Zara as an example of a globalized firm.

I'm not saying they do do this at all.

In fact, I don't think they do, but they will.

I think companies like Zoro will end up doing this because you'll say you're selling to North America, to South America, to Eastern Europe.

You may tailor that completely what you do with the model for the same garment in individual territories.

You also can do what actually someone like Rihanna has used for her company Fenty Beauty has done these targeted little micro campaigns.

Fenty Beauty is like a huge success story, but she's able to do sort of quite targeted micro campaigns to, once they have your data, of course, they know what sort of things you're you're into and many of those are AI driven you know as I keep saying they keep going on about oh it's sustainable it's all these sort of things but the model is customizable and they're customizable at scale is something that's very significant for these businesses that have huge amount of individual units and individual styles that they're selling if you think of some a company like ASOS or something like that if you're a model for that company then you're going to have to get I don't know how many items of clothing on a day so that they can shoot the because they're constantly they don't have like a spring collection and a summer collection the clothes are coming in all the time so there will always be shooting and they will always be putting the stuff out there but it's a completely labor intensive thing um and those people work very very fast it's almost like the equivalent of shooting a soap opera an ad campaign for guests in the old days would be a massive trip abroad so many people going on it and as i say weeks and weeks and weeks of people tailoring it and trying to get it right because it's the biggest thing that i've and it's the adverts that keep magazines or keep fashion publications even online going so it's very significant that they use this ad and permitted it, and it will not be the last we see of it.

It's going to be non-stop, right?

It's going to be non-stop.

And I also agree with you, actually, that, yes, photoshopping and doing all of the digital enhancements that have happened to women,

particularly fashion models.

Is this not, I'm afraid, this is the next logical step.

And if business doesn't like it, then it opened the door.

It is awful, isn't it?

Because every single thing you talk about is a job lost.

But

I don't see a way of putting up the floodgates, given that anyone entry-level can and will do this.

And as you say, and it's happened in lots of industries,

you know, books, fashion, all sorts of things where stuff has been done to order and is done to a certain algorithm.

And you think, well, you've been doing that for ages.

This is, as you say, this is the

pigeons coming home to roost, isn't it?

There's going to be so many of these stories.

But the choice is going to become, as always, do you do this and survive because everybody else is doing whatever?

Or do you say, oh, we just don't do this?

And as you have said, it will be the more niche people who say, we don't do this.

We're the kind of art house fashion models or whatever it is, or art house cinema, we don't do this.

But some of the big commercial stuff, it's just too tempting for them to not use this technology.

There is an upside to being a real human being and

playing a real piano and being a real model.

And have a look at that, yes.

Once you know, you know, there is something uncanny and weird about it.

But I think that they knew people would talk.

And

it definitely won't be as they did not issue a statement saying we'll never do it.

They just said it hasn't happened so far.

Right, Richard.

Graham Upton has been on with a question about classic FM.

I would be very interested to know, he says, to what extent classic FM presenters influence the choice of music played on their programmes.

For example, Zeb Sones, who's one of my favourite presenters, frequently plays more unusual works on his show in comparison to others on the schedule.

Funnily enough,

I know a Classic FM presenter.

His name is Alexander Armstrong.

So I spoke to him.

He does the breakfast show there.

It is very, very similar to all commercial radio, funnily enough.

We think of classical music as slightly more kind of arcane.

And, you know, Xander says, well, if you're at Radio 1, if you're at Radio 2, if you're at Classic FM, you know, you've got your A list, you've got your B list, you've got your C list, and certain things are put in rotation.

There's someone has to be across what gets to the rules.

It's like Vorjak got on the radar or something.

Exactly.

Vorjak's got a great PR.

But he said, my favourite thing is the double A list that he said, which is for the real tub thumpers.

And the three examples he gives, Ness and Dormer, Zadok the Priest, Beethoven's Fifth, etc., which are specially reserved for tops of hours or coming out of breaks.

So I love that.

I used to have a fantastic CD called classical music from the adverts, which was the extent of like you would have loved it.

Yeah, R Street.

Yeah, that sounds absolutely perfect.

I know, I'd love to be able to find it.

I'm devastating.

But Zander says, and this is the case in most commercial radio stations as well.

You know, the controllers of the channel and the programmers, they know what Zepp Zebstone's like, they know what Zander likes, and so they'll put in stuff that they know that Zander enjoys playing and that he can talk to his audience in an interesting way about.

And, you know, there are special themed weeks and all sorts of things.

So I sort of felt like, of course it's obvious that it's exactly the same as any commercial radio station.

You know, think of classical music like, you know, being like Motown and, you know, Brit Pop.

Yeah.

It's funny.

But of course it is.

So, you know, the channel needs to have a certain mood at certain times a day.

You know, it needs to make sure you're not hearing the same song piece, you know, too often.

It needs to make sure that there are uplifting things.

And so, yeah, they have programmers doing all of that.

But the individual hosts will, of course, stick to those playlists.

But as Graeme says about Zebstones and as Zander says here, they're also aware of what their individual DJs, are they called DJs on Classic Fam presenters?

Yeah, let's say,

what their specialities are, what their audience likes to hear them play.

So, you know, there is some leeway there.

But no, it's exactly the same as any commercial radio station in the evenings and weekends.

Is there ever like a Zadoc morning?

Is that a real bread?

Is that does it come out a lot on the Bretvis show?

Zadoc, yeah.

When Handel wrote Zadok the Priest, yeah, for the first time because it's quite mental.

Yeah, I would love to have been one of the first people to hear it.

I'd have loved to have done the video.

Where Handel's going, yeah, I got this thing.

What's it called?

Zaydot the Priest?

So the what?

What, the what?

A Zaydot the Priest.

Okay, well, listen, well, come on, play it.

You're like, oh, yeah, no.

Do you know what?

I really like it.

I think it's very brave.

I think, yeah, it feels like it's not like a lot of your other stuff.

It's, yeah, yeah.

No, honestly, it's, I actually have to go now.

But it is, um, can you send me a CD of it?

I would love to, yeah, I'll listen.

I'll, so I'll play it to the gang.

Um, but, and now, look, it's a, it's a double A banger.

Yeah.

Handle would be so happy to know that Zadot the Priest was double A.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah.

I love Classic of M.

If ever we're driving through the countryside, we always just stick it on.

It feels like it kind of feels like, always feels like you're in a film.

I've never driven to America without listening to country.

You just have to keep it locked.

We had all the way from LA to Palm Springs, we listened to Chris Stapleton radio, which is Chris Stapleton and just things that are like Chris Stapleton.

Yeah, keep it locked.

That's us done, I think.

We have a bonus episode tomorrow where we finally reveal the result of the greatest British sitcom of all time, as voted for by our members.

And also, don't forget, if you're a member, you can try and win one of those 10 pairs of tickets to the Thursday Murder Club premiere.

Full Full of stars and full of you.

Also, me.

I'll be there.

I'll be glasses off, headphones on, baseball cap on, but you'll still know it's me.

Completely unrecognized.

Yeah, you go this.

Isn't that the guy from Wednesday?

Other than that, we will see you next Tuesday.

See you next Tuesday.

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