CELEBRITY TRAITORS: Week Two Reaction

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Hello, and welcome to this special episode of The Resters Entertainment with me, Marina Hai.

And me, Richard Osman.

Hello, everybody.

This is exciting.

We're at your house.

I know.

I know.

I know.

In one of the wings.

The first thing I'll say is: if you have not watched the last two episodes, switch off right now because

we're just going to be talking about it.

We're going to be talking about it.

in depth.

So if you don't want any spoilers, watch those episodes.

Come back to us.

But this is 100% non-spoiler free.

this is spoiler full this is full fat spoiler milk I mean let me just pick my jaw off the floor because we are on a cliffhanger now well before we say anything I think we're watching one of the great TV programs it is a joke how good it is

everything that we wished it could be and more it's traitors but it's a great traitors that's all you can ask sorry the the ratings are now insane the ratings for the web we don't know the ratings yet for tonight but we know for wednesday and they were bigger than strictly which and and it's midweek it's over over seven million there's only two shows that have beaten it all year one was the women's euro finals and the other was traitors the the final of the uh the civilian version so this is going to go absolutely crazy in the next couple of weeks but it deserves to let's talk about it oh my god okay um a lot happened in the because so we've got two episodes

since we last did this quite a lot has happened since we last spoke um

Shall we uh do you remember like Tom going?

That seems a long time ago now.

Maybe let's just start at the end right away quickly because I think we're all just thinking about the choice of those three to be banished.

Yeah.

Charlotte.

Kate.

Or David.

David.

Our stablemate.

Our stablemate.

I'm not even going to wait for you because it is quite obviously should be Charlotte.

I think it should be Charlotte, yes.

I think she's probably the most dangerous of those three people.

David, I know they're sort of saying,

he's so clever, isn't he?

He's going to catch on at us.

But at the moment, he's just not a threat at the moment.

And a couple of people have started saying, oh, maybe he's a traitor so all you want in that world is for someone else to get rid of someone that's great but who's going to get rid of charlotte probably no one kate is i like they they said about charlotte on wednesday's episode the thing about her is she's so loud and so wrong

and normally you want to keep those people in but but but for but you know you could you can sort of see that uh getting Charlotte out of the way will just remove another big personality from the game.

They'll have to because

she's wrongly backed it being Claire and then she'll just wheel around and do something totally totally different.

Well, that's the problem, like a stopped clock that's right twice a day.

When someone like that is right, it's very difficult to budge them.

Yeah, and she'll say a lot of stuff.

She is unboundaried.

Ruth was unboundary.

Yes, in a great way.

Ruth was...

But for all the good it did her.

As we've said so many times when discussing this show, guys, you really don't need to get a traitor early on.

Yes.

Yeah, they're still doing, oh, how bad are we at this?

Yep, not particularly bad.

You've You've only had two chances and there's 19 of you.

And so statistically, yeah, you're up to 10 years.

Subconsciously, you're actually playing well because you don't need to get one.

She, Ruth was, she just felt like you had to say and you had to get someone.

I did find it, it is intriguing when someone, and I don't think I've seen this very much.

First of all, I haven't seen a generational distaste like that on traitors ever.

Normally, the older people in traitors, and funnily enough, Jonathan Ross has become one of those.

He's 64.

64, and the older, and it's often older women, get sort of patronised and sort of

coddled and what have you.

And we're going to come to one significant, very significant older woman in a bit.

But normally they do in the civilian version of the format,

but they don't get, there's never any sort of aggro.

Ruth clearly, literally disliked Jonathan, not in the game, but actually.

And I found that quite interesting.

She really wanted to shoehorn him almost, I think, into that sort of, into the boomer bit of okay boomer.

And it made me realize that in his career, Jonathan Ross has sort of outrun that stuff.

He's always seemed sort of youthful and like the right young thing.

And suddenly you think, oh, you're like an elder statesman now.

And she really didn't like it.

And what I find interesting is over the last few days, I've seen him, he's gone on a podcast and said, oh, I didn't like it.

I didn't like being traded.

I didn't like having to do the lying.

I think he's nervous about, because as we said all along, it's a risk for celebrities to do this format because celebrities can, you know, go up as well as down in the public estimation.

And you'll, I think we're already seeing a little bit of a rearguard action there with him saying, Well, I didn't like it, I didn't like all the lying.

It's tricky, isn't it?

I do think it's

again the fascinating thing about this being a celebrity one, that's what I'm always interested in: is what is it about them being celebrities that makes this a different series?

Jonathan, in any regular series of this as a traitor, has literally not put a foot wrong.

He's playing it brilliantly, but because he's Jonathan Ross, he is put in an almost impossible position

because

Joe Marla, for example, is able to say they're going to put one of the big dogs up against each other.

Jonathan versus...

have a whole dedicated section to Joe Marla's theory.

We will get onto that.

But what it means is Jonathan's already starting with a disadvantage because this sort of true.

You do sort of think, well, somebody like Jonathan will be a traitor.

But they talk about him like he's Klausevit.

I mean,

it's ridiculous.

He's like, you know, Bismarck.

He's no.

But in the regular series, you don't know at that point.

You know who's older and who's younger or who's got a certain background and who doesn't, but you don't know who the alphas are at that stage.

You don't know who the people, you know, who, but whereas he is copper-bottomed from the second he walks in and that puts a target on his back.

I find it very difficult to work out how he could have played it any better.

And yet, immediately he's in big trouble.

Whereas Alan and Kat

seemingly seem to be in absolutely no no trouble whatsoever.

They seem to be in the opposite of trouble.

Yeah, I mean, at the end, when he said,

is it just me or is this getting easier, Jonathan?

I was like, it's just you.

TikTok.

Anyhow, moving on to someone like Stephen, who again has even more, you know, people say, oh, David's brilliant, he's so clever.

They sort of have been told that.

They know that a bit.

But Stephen is like everyone's idea of the cleverest person.

He's just sort of like that kind of national baseline.

Especially when David Otashoga said he's the cleverest person I've ever met.

Well, this is something Tom Dailey should have realized that, you know, again, you don't need to catch a traitor at the start.

Yeah.

And there's a premium on looking stupid.

Why do you think Stephen is bumbling around looking like an absolute idiot?

I am assuming on purpose because he isn't one.

And kind of becoming that person who just says, oh, I don't know.

This is so difficult.

You know, that will take Stephen quite far, but he can never win because ultimately, in my view, by the way, if he does win, then I'm very happy to say, oh my God, don't trust me on everything ever.

That's the great thing about traitors is you never know.

But it'll certainly be difficult for him to win.

Yeah, because eventually suspicion will fall on him because people will just think he's too clever not to be a traitor.

There's no logic to it.

But also, particularly.

Because you can see occasionally

he is attempting to lead people in a clever way.

He's made two comments, one in the previous week where he said, you know, he talked about Sherlock Holmes and said, you know, don't forget in the absence of any evidence.

whatsoever,

you know, we're actually playing a different game here.

And everyone, of course, ignores it and goes, yeah, but I think Tamika looks.

And then this week he said, I mean, we could just ignore what Claudia said, and we could all just vote and not talk.

Because what he's basically saying is we get this wrong when the wisdom of crowds.

Although they do heard far less than the civilians.

Oh my God.

There was like eight votes in a row, which were

solo, yeah.

Especially when you've got someone like Celia around.

I mean, she could literally go for anyone.

Staying with Stephen, yes, he will start to control, but in a different way to the way, obviously because he isn't a traitor.

He understands the assignment, which is that they don't need to catch anybody.

And actually, just bumbling under the radar is by far the best game plan for him, particularly given the game.

Get the numbers down.

Get the numbers down, and then you can start seeing what's going on.

But it's amazing, you know, because

this one, I think this might be in the British one, the best group of contestants.

we've ever had.

Firstly, because they've already seen quite a lot of series of it.

And secondly, there's something about the way their TV minds work that really, really helps them out.

There are very few people in there that think like regular contestants.

There's the odd one or two, which is just, I've got a feeling.

I'm going to go with my gut on this.

So there's the odd one or two person who play like a regular traitors, but most of them are kind of going, no, what is going on here?

It's amazing how many...

good game players there are and you know if you look at their interviews with with either of the joes you look at you know celia any of these can i just say that his joe marler's comment his theory is by far the most intelligent theory that has been floated on the screen, namely that

there's a big, the big dog theory as it immediately became Christian.

Jonathan probably has been put in as a traitor and Stephen as the sort of homes to his Mariarti.

Yes, or one of them definitely has.

And

at the moment, it looks like they would go for Jonathan before they went for Stephen.

So actually, actually,

that's going to work very nicely because it's not like they're going to go for Jonathan.

He's a faithful, so it must be Stephen.

Yeah, he's going at Jonathan's going over the Reichenbach Falls in this particular analogy i agree for yours like you're doing too if you see stephen kept saying you know that there's somebody who's working as you know a brilliant mind a sort of fiendish mind it's like oh get over yourselves you don't really need marioti against you for this one i know like the traitors must be so clever you think i mean there's 19 people you've only voted out to i mean it's not like the the hardest thing in the whole world if they'd literally done nothing then statistically you probably would have voted out to Faithful.

Like no one's really putting your strings all that well.

And the only things they have done is, you know, Alan getting rid of Paloma, which instantly makes people think, oh, maybe that's the only thing that's made people think it might be Alan.

And then Jonathan getting rid of Ruth, which has made everyone think maybe it's Jonathan.

So the only two really big moves they have made have drawn suspicion on themselves.

So it's not like, yeah, they're not like the greatest geniuses of all time, but it's impossible to be at this stage.

Sorry, you've just said his name and I can think of nothing else.

My immense love for Alan Rochester.

Alan is unbelievable.

Which I thought couldn't get any bigger, has discovered an entire new wing with this series absolute fair play to whoever decided he should be a traitor because he's a left field choice and he is unbelievable

I want to talk about every I want to talk about two things with him I want to talk about him as a player and as a booking because he is acing it as both and I think that's I do I tell you what it's great when people understand that they are on an entertainment show yeah and that you are singing for your supper not only is he and some of the stuff how quick he was you know when when Jonathan came down and someone said, Oh, it's like, is that your Flintstone costume?

He was like, Yaba, dabba, don't.

And I thought, my God, you're doing that.

You're also, he also understands that thing, which I think is, you know, he sings for his supper.

He has a sense of occasion.

He understands he's not a light entertainment format.

Some of them are really vanishing.

Even people who, in other formats, you've seen on a panel show, you've maybe seen their stand-up, whatever it is, it's like, yeah, you're nothing here at the moment and you're not really grabbing hold of it.

He is completely dominating it in an entirely authentic way.

But he also does understand.

I sometimes think of it when I was watching, I was thinking, this is a little bit like question time.

Stay with this.

Yes, because you've got the audience where you're doing it.

You've got the studio audiences you have on question time.

And then you've got all the people back home.

And something that might get a clap from the studio audience.

the people back home might think

and as we said it does matter how celebrities behave on this format because their careers are i don't want to say at risk because nothing terrible is going to happen but they can go up as well as down and something about the way he see, I mean, he is everything.

He, you know, is it Meredith Burgs?

I'm a bitch, I'm a lover, I'm a child, I'm a mother, I'm a saint, I'm a saint, and I'm not ashamed.

Okay.

He is the full threat.

And

when somebody absolutely fronts up to Celia

as well and says, well, you put my name on the slate.

And that is not his personality type.

That's him thinking, this would be a lot of fun if I said this.

Yeah.

Because he understands, but he's also giving the audience something, which the audience at home, which is, as we talked before when we were talking in the Q ⁇ A ⁇ A episode about like, try and think of these things as fiction and that, you know, their heroes or anti-heroes are trying to get their goals.

What he does is he's shown you a journey.

Think of him going to pieces at the start.

That feels quite a long way away now.

Like he's becoming, you know, it is like breaking bad or something like that.

You know, you're becoming a kingpin or you're becoming

one of those stories.

Yeah, if you'd said within three episodes, one of these two men, Jonathan or Alan, will be almost unassailable.

You wouldn't say Alan has absolutely grown into it.

He's like an accountant who's accidentally been made the head of a mafia family.

And everyone's gone, oh, this is, he's not going to be able to handle this.

He's just an accountant.

He's not going to be able to handle the violence.

And within kind of a year, he's just killed everybody.

Yeah.

Exactly.

It's like a scarf.

It's like Scarface.

It's hilarious.

Or also like an ordinary person who's thrown into extraordinary events.

And he's just done it brilliantly.

And

I just find it incredibly impressive.

And I do find that thing of not going to pieces and remembering that you are on an entertainment format.

And that's what you've been doing for it's a brilliant booking as well as a brilliant player.

Jonathan, I felt a little bit for because he suddenly has put himself in a position where someone is accusing him of lying.

Okay, so not only do I have to defend myself as a traitor, I have to defend myself as a television personality now as well, which is a slightly different thing.

And as you say, is actually more valuable to him than his status as...

a traitor.

But if he's just a regular puncher

playing the show, then winning is absolutely everything.

Whereas for Jonathan, he would rather be voted out and loved than win absolutely and be hated because

the win is being loved but what an able partner he has in cat who's just

she doesn't put her foot wrong she's and she's got that thing yeah yeah she's got that thing where she says you know maybe because i'm quite young and quite she knows herself very well actually quite a lot of celebrities

don't necessarily know themselves in the same way and they don't necessarily see how they might come across and

and I she really knows herself and thinks oh I will always be underestimated and that's great so I think I think we'll get on to who we think is going to be voted off, but it feels like Jonathan's journey will be cut short.

It feels that I can't work out how he's going to survive another

two or three banishments.

Even the medium term.

I think he sort of knows that as well.

There's a few people you can throw under the bus.

And it feels like he will definitely be kicked out before Alan or Kat.

And so we will be in a situation next week, presumably,

where Alan and Kat have to recruit.

At that stage, two very strong traitors in Alan and Kat.

Let's assume their strength remains for a couple of episodes.

Who is it that they can bolster themselves with who could take at least one of them through to the

end of the series?

Because it's going pretty quickly.

I mean, I'm finding her absolutely mesmerising.

And it is Celia.

Yes.

Because she, I mean, it's terrifying because there's an element that she's so unpredictable.

I don't think anyone thinks it's her particularly.

I mean, she has been nominated a couple of times.

Yeah.

Just as a sidebar, I have to say the Thursday Murder Club is about not really underestimating all the people.

It's just like, oh, I'm given the role in the movie.

She's like a walking marketing campaign for the entire concept of your world.

Having known her now for a little while and love her very much, she is genuinely, entirely unfiltered yeah in the same in the way that lots of people go thing about me is i'm unfiltered and you go well are you she really is she literally will just say whatever she wants at any given time and she loves getting a reaction she loves mischief she loves trouble and what a room to be in when you like all of those things she also slightly knows she's untouchable for a bit she understands the status that she has and should be very very hard to get rid of her so she knows she's got free reign just for a little while just a bit she's too unpredictable to get that third spot when they have to recruit agreed um what do you think before we narrow it down then are the uh key attributes for that third spot is it just someone you would never suspect or is it someone who i mean i there are dark horses in this like someone like lucy beaumont who again

we always say there's a stupidity premium she's not stupid at all no but she can she can create

the image of being stupid.

She can create a vibe of stupidity.

And there are certain people like that.

What do you think of the attributes that are best in the recruited?

Well,

if you're thinking about someone,

there are stages of the traitors where if you bring someone on, you need them to do two things.

You need them to keep you safe for maybe two banishments, and then you need to throw them under the bus.

So you need somebody who can do both of those things.

So it has a hint of suspicion about them, but also a hint of solidity.

But they also normally need to be suspecting you as well, because it's the only way, if you can't murder him for one reason or another, it's quite helpful to just say, okay, now you work for us.

In some ways, Joe Marlowe would be an amazing traitor, but I genuinely think, and I'm sure Joe would agree with this, I think he would go to pieces

if he was a traitor.

I think you can see he has such a moral core that the very act of being a traitor, I think, might be too much for him.

Do you have to recruit Stephen?

Because basically, otherwise people will retain him

and are just already psychologically thinking of him as the, you know, to go back to the map.

I don't know.

I think it's too obvious.

I think you just murder Stephen at some stage.

I would go for Lucy or Joe Wilkinson, I think.

Yes, I think I would probably too.

Can we talk about shields?

They all deferred and sort of gave Stephen a shield.

Yeah.

What was all this about?

I feel like I missed the seven-second lacuna of the show and fully misunderstood.

Shields, when Shields first came along, I thought, oh, this is just some pointless silly gimmick that I didn't, you know, it has become a brilliant way of, and people's behavior over them.

Yeah.

They're such a sort of hot potato.

People think if you look happy to have one, then you are a traitor.

I know.

And if you give it up, that means you're a traitor.

It's one of the great

illogical leaps of the game.

The other one is if someone writes your name on the board, whoever that person is must be a traitor because they've suspected the saintly you.

Yeah, exactly.

And you know for a fact that you're faithful.

So therefore, that's one of the great logical factors.

And this is what Stephen said.

There is no data.

There is no data.

So you try and find data.

You try and find patterns.

You're just looking for anything.

And actually, the only thing there really is.

is listening.

That's the only thing you can ever do.

And just listening to little, to tones of voice and stuff like that.

I thought Jonathan had a big tell when he said,

corroborate

instead of corroborate.

Corroborate.

And I just thought you were really nervous at that moment and you said the wrong word.

And he's so, obviously, he's sort of so famously

loquacious and doesn't make mistakes.

Being on that show, it'd be so hard.

There's so much going on all the time.

And you're aware that...

You don't want to be accused of anything, but you're also aware you don't want to accuse anyone else of anything, really.

I mean, the best thing to do is say nothing at all, but you can't even say nothing at all.

So what can you do?

As we said last time, if you're a comedian, actually there's a number of moments where Joe and Adam were able to absolutely deflect quite difficult questions because they could just be funny.

And it goes away.

It goes away immediately.

And that's a very, very useful thing to do.

But it's hard to know what to do.

You know, when they're saying to David Odishogo, when they're saying, yeah, you've been very quiet, you think, yeah, he's just been put in a house with Jonathan Ross, Claire Balding, Alan Carr, Celia Imrie.

What do you think he's going to be?

He's an historian.

He's not Larry Grace.

He's done very little history.

Yeah.

Which should be the rejoinder.

Why don't you wait for there to be like six or seven people and see if maybe he's got a few things to say for himself.

But if you were put in that room, you might also be quite quiet.

And if you weren't quiet, people would go, it's a bit weird.

We've got Alan Carr and Jonathan Ross and you're doing all the talking.

But this herding thing is interesting because it is, as you say, you're always interested in how they're different to the civilians.

The civilians understand, or whether they understand, either way,

what happens is

the result is they tend to herd.

Everyone says, I came in with one idea tonight, and you've swayed me, whoever, Paul, because you're saying this about somebody.

And then they all herd round.

And you do get a few outlying votes and things like that.

On Wednesday, I think the first eight votes were for different people.

And Tamika went out on three votes, which I mean, that's...

tough, but it is that thing of they're not herding and they are willing to back themselves, but we're not hearing that.

I think they're not herding for other reasons as well.

I think they're being asked to commit and feeling like they're committing to some kind of pilot.

It slightly reminds me of

people always say when once a prime minister has ever done a reshuffle, that's your, you know, you just become weaker because you have more enemies on the back benches.

Every time you have to say something, it's almost worth it to them to say a different name every time and not actually, which is a form of not committing, rather than being one of those civilians who just come back every day and say, well, I'm sorry, I'm still going to say it.

I think it's Jonathan.

I think it's Jonathan night after night.

They're not doing that.

They're dotting around,

which I genuinely think is a psychological sort of failure to commit for reasons like that.

They just think they understand popularity in a different way to the game players in the civilian version.

But I was literally just thinking, as you were saying, there, what on earth are we thinking, saying, Joe Wilkinson or Lucy, to be who we'd recruit?

Because if it was you or I, you know, who we'd recruit.

Nick.

Yes.

Of course.

Sorry, what are we talking about?

And what have we for you?

Because even here, he's going under the radar.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, and yeah, he's so utterly charming.

He's such an amazing game player.

When they did the task, when they're having to unlock all the chains, and you know, they normally edit those, so there's like two seconds left at the end.

And because they've got Nick, who understands how all puzzles work, and then they've got Joe Marla, who can make a pulley work really, really, really quickly.

They're like five minutes, 17 seconds.

I've never seen a task because the way they do all of those tasks is they'll play it through like loads of times with researchers.

They'll see like the longest time it took, the shortest time it took.

They were like, you know, they'll go, we need it to take, it's 20 minutes, so we need it to take 18 and a half to 19 minutes, 45 seconds.

That's that's what we need.

And they would have worked out the fastest time anyone ever did it.

And they'll go, oh, actually, we just, because that took you 22 minutes, so we just need to make that clue a tiny bit easier.

And we'll make this puddy thing a tiny bit easier.

The fact they did it in 15 minutes, 30 seconds tells me nobody's nobody,

nobody in any rehearsal had got close.

You've got these two

very different outliers.

Yeah.

Yes, you're quite right.

It should be Nick.

And you'll see what...

Because also, what you can do then is draw on that brilliant strategic and quizzing and kind of,

you know, that kind of a brain.

And then eventually you can throw him under the bus by saying, you see, Nick, we all know that Nick is actually, and what's emerged is that he's of a special form of genius himself.

Because he's been very quiet.

Yeah.

For a man who will have seen every single angle of every single angle he's certainly not letting us inside him well he'd be more brilliant conciliary you know he's like gabriel burn in miller's crossing yes and then unfortunately it has to end unhappily but um but yes that's what they could do because i mean i think you would just try and draw on him because eventually he's going to work it out presumably quicker than everyone else yeah yeah yeah but who's going to go uh in the next episode so we have david He's been quiet, hasn't he?

We have Charlotte and we have Kate, who was the kind of first suspected person.

And everyone seems to have gone cold on suspecting Kate for now.

But who do we think?

She had a little drive-by from Alan.

He is genuinely extraordinary.

How he's turned into an arch villain.

I'm here for every nanosecond of it.

I literally couldn't love him more now.

It's hysterical.

It's brilliant.

Brilliant.

So we think Charlotte.

Yeah,

she's a liability.

You just got to get it.

You just don't know what she's going to do next.

She's a liability.

If there's a grenade in the room, you throw the grenade out.

Yeah.

The production design is unbelievable.

I love that they finally cracked the tasks and they just

the shields worked beautifully and then just making it a sort of folk horror thing every week.

Every single week.

And yeah, like a sort of a dark twisted version of the like the tri-wizard egg thing from Harry Potter.

Or anything in a cloak and a mask.

And the wind.

Dragged out of the Range Rovers in the woods by people with masks.

You were generally thinking, oh, this is like a Norwegian horror movie.

Everything is like a sort of grim Scottish midsummer.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

It's so good.

The gothicness and the kind.

And also because it lides perfectly with Claudia's kind of persona for the show.

Yeah.

And it just all works.

And it is,

even while it's gothic, it is also hysterically camp, which I love.

Who haven't we talked about?

We haven't talked about, and he was a very interesting case in these two episodes, Mark Bonner,

who I like very much, but he absolutely had that actor thing after he'd accused Tamika and he'd got it wrong.

He absolutely went in on himself

and was so self-flagellating to the point that it's gonna that'll get him into

trouble, yeah.

Like it did on Kate, who had to then say, I'm a terrible ham.

Yeah, but at least you're something because I you keep her screen time keeps being, and then we saw the cabin, and then we were like, Oh no, this is so gross.

You know, it's one of those things.

So, I think she is going to have to

pull out and do more in order to

sort of resist the attentions of the group.

And when he came down to breakfast the next day, he goes, oh, I barely slept.

And as Ingrid said, yeah, you had a massive, like almost a pint of red wine after

the banner.

Of course you didn't sleep, mate.

I mean, you had a shield, so it wasn't that.

There is no judgment here, by the way.

Oh, my God.

You would have had a bottle.

I would drink so much in that castle.

There's no judgment judgment in here.

The Joe and Joe friendship I like very much.

Oh, I love that.

That's a great double act.

Yeah.

Just so sort of unexpected.

You'd think that could,

I mean, that could develop into a useful alliance

and almost become something worth splitting up if you were recruiting.

So I think I have to think about that.

And Joe Wilkinson is another one like Alan, who understands he's in an entertainment show.

Yeah.

And will do Joe and Wilkinson.

And yet, equally, he has that very, very specific Joe Wilkinson persona, which he somehow makes fit the game, which I find quite interesting.

To be able to be yourself,

it's very, as we said, it's very difficult for Jonathan Ross to be himself because he is someone who, you know, by nature of the day job, controls events.

And it's just really hard.

Whereas Joe Wilkinson is lost in a mad world.

So

it's easier to adapt that persona to the game.

Now, shall we talk about Claire leaving?

So

we had a couple of questions actually from listeners saying,

do you think anyone contractually said, I will come and do Celebrity Traitors, but I'm not allowed to leave till like episode four or something like that?

And definitively not.

No way.

Couldn't do it.

It's literally

impossible to do.

I'm not saying there won't be the odd agent who asked for it, but definitively not.

He's with Avalon.

Yeah, exactly.

But Claire is the first of the kind of national treasures, if you like.

Yeah.

And

they couldn't care less.

They just went, you know what?

We're absolutely getting rid of her.

That thing of.

I find the talking of national treasuredom, treasurehood is interesting.

It's a little

could border on a distasteful.

It's shorthand, though, for Alpha, I think.

I know.

In this instance.

It's shorthand for that.

And by the way, I don't think Claire would ever say she's a national treasurer.

I don't think she's described as one.

So that's my shorthand.

It's the talking about it.

Okay, instead of national treasurer, I will use the word big dog.

Yeah, big.

She was the first of the big dogs.

She was too forthright, though.

Well, I think when

you centre in on someone like Jonathan,

there's always a blast radius.

You can't be king.

Like my granddad said, if you're called to a fight in a pub, make sure you're second through the door.

And Claire, I think, was first through the door.

Claire and Ruth.

And look what happened to both of those.

So I think...

Yes, both of them had a similar sort of thing where they said, I'm going to say exactly what I think.

I'm going to be nice to everyone.

So like, no, no, no.

Okay.

You need to spend the day slagging someone off in order that you can build a definitive alliance.

And then you do it.

And then they will herd behind you.

Although this lot don't herd so much at the moment.

They don't.

I felt bad for Jonathan with the alliance thing, because whether he said it or not, he was literally just being driven there.

He didn't even know.

It was a crazy thing.

Why didn't he just say, yeah, I don't even know if I said that or something?

Well, I think once he said I didn't want, because I think it hadn't occurred to, I think he just, that thing of when you are slightly falsely accused, he was just saying, oh, Lily, you're fine.

Listen, we're, we're with you.

He was just being nice to two people who are saying we don't know anything.

It was just a random thing he said in the car.

A random thing he said in the car.

And it gets brought up.

And then so immediately it's totally...

Therefore, I think that, you know, plotline's plotline.

She didn't like him for other reasons.

And that became something that

was used as a sort of retrofitted as a reason.

Just to reiterate, this show is so good.

Oh my God, it's just a joke how good it is.

I'm so pleased.

And it gets better every time.

And it is different as a celebrity format.

And we're just seeing all the different ways and the sort of different branching fallouts of it all.

I'm already so excited for the second series.

I mean, this one hasn't even finished.

You know, like when you're eating your tea and you can't wait for tomorrow's tea.

Yeah.

It's like that.

You just think it immediately, almost anyone you can think of.

You're like, oh my god, they would be amazing in Celebrity Traitors 2.

It's absolutely brilliant.

It's faultlessly done by Studio Lambert, by the BBC.

I couldn't.

It's great.

And just like a massive midweek hit.

I mean, a genuinely enormous hit.

Yeah.

Like a proper, like,

universe-sized hit in the way that we don't have hits like that anymore.

And it's only going to get bigger as well.

And it gives us the opportunity to do this as well.

Which I love.

It's such fun.

I wish they'd have it on year-round.

We'd just talk about it.

I know.

We'd just like to do it for a living week.

Yeah, I'd love to do that.

Me too.

But it is magnificent.

I hope you're absolutely

loving it.

So we'll come back and do more next week.

We're definitely going to be back next week.

We can't.

We've got a lot to get out.

Thank you so much.

And thank you so much for watching or listening, however, you do it.

And I can't believe we've got to wait a week.

It's a lot.

Well, it's six days, so that's just

so.

That's just six more sleeps, yeah.

Six more sleeps.

Okay, we'll see you back here next week.

See you next week, folks.

Bye.

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