The Cult Of British Celebrity Boyfriends

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Hello, and welcome to this episode of The Restors Entertainment with me, Marina High.

And me, Richard Osman.

Hello, everybody.

Hello, Marina.

Hello, Richard.

How are you?

I'm not bad.

How are you this week?

I'm not doing too badly.

I know you've got a big move this week.

Yes, a house move this week.

Let's not even talk about it.

Let's not even talk about it.

I don't deal well with transitional periods.

No.

I don't deal well with interregnums.

I find it very, very difficult.

Until everything is like normal again, I will be slightly discomposed.

Until the restoration of your monarchy.

Exactly that.

But this is a lovely little break for me because I know how to do this.

This is all fine.

And thank you, by the way, everyone, for all your amazing feedback for our Celebrity Traitors episodes, which have been

going great guns.

We have enjoyed them so much and more to come, more to come.

But what are we talking about today?

Well, Richard, every now and then, as you know, we do a sort of fashion item.

And I want to talk about an extremely hot accessory.

which is the British celebrity boyfriend, a field guide to this particular type.

You'll hear more when we do the item looking forward to hearing about that we're also going to talk about what is happening at warner music in the uk and what it means for the the whole of the music business it's quite an interesting story that about where the music business is going it's i think there's also some familiar names as well will crop up there and What's going to be Christmas number one book this year as well?

And also a few suggestions for books you might not have heard of that would make very, very good Christmas presentations.

Oh, I'm looking forward to that.

I'm just wanted to say that.

I'll be writing them down.

Okay.

The British Celebrity Boyfriend.

A field guide.

By Marina Hines.

Okay, before we go on to it, just define what you mean by British celebrity boyfriend, what we call the BCB.

Yeah,

we do now.

The BCB must be

in the creative industries himself.

Yeah.

He must be British, although there's one who isn't.

Okay.

That's good.

And really, he must be going out with an American.

An An American.

So

attracts American

women from LA.

American women going out with a British person and hanging around in London.

I know exactly where we are.

Let's go.

Olivia Wilde, who you may know has previously dated Harry Styles, director Booksmart.

She directed Harry Stiles in Don't Worry, Darling, with Florence Puget.

There was a huge drama about the whole press tour of that one, but we can't, that's a whole another day.

And of course, she sang Kids in America and wrote the ballad of Reading Jail.

She is now dating ellie goulding's ex caspar jopling okay who's a who's a gallery owner right is he and that's that's not a job you sort of work your way up to i always think now she having gone out with harry styles i would say she's a connoisseur of the british celebrity boyfriend and there is a time well he's well he's he's like presumably i'm you'll know more i'm going to do the league table but he's the exemplar surely listen i won't i i i won't preempt anything you have to say i will do the top 10 of british celebrity boyfriends

in what order i was like you know and i'm even going to start at 10.

wow amazing you really are taking this seriously i i couldn't be taking it more seriously okay so who is the british celebrity boyfriend okay well number one he's sensitive and artistic he has to be in the creative industries right he can't be a footballer what about gary lineker though could he be a great british boyfriend he's a footballer no no you no they can't be footballers okay you could you can take uh the man out of football but you can't take football out of the man no i don't think no that's not what i'm talking about he would be the closest and i'll tell you what okay let me ask you how many scarves do you think gary Gary owns?

I think he's out by a factor of 10.

The British celebrity boyfriend has a, owns a huge number of scarves.

Now, presumably, Leicester City scarves don't count.

No, no, no, no, no, no.

I mean, you could have one ironic one, even if it was your club.

Where would they get their scarf just out of interest?

I've never really been confident with scarves.

Let's start with that, how they dress.

Let's start with the sartorial type of the British celebrity boyfriend, okay?

You don't see them like with these Americans, you know, they're never out of exercise clothes, okay?

No.

You might see a leather boot.

Right.

You might, you will certainly see a wool coat, not a technical jacket of any type, with the sole exception if you might be walking the dog in Richmond Park, thanks, Tom Holland, or in Hampstead Heath.

So Tom Holland is a British celebrity.

He'll very much be in the top 10.

Okay, great.

Tom Holland will very much be in the top 10.

Okay.

The actor, not the co-host of the rest of his history.

No, not the co-host.

Is he in the top 10 as well?

No, he's not.

The other clothes, I mean, if they've done a promotional tour, e.g., Paul Mescal.

Of course, he is

Irish, but I will, I will, I, I know what you mean.

He's got a very British fame.

It's that's a tricky one.

Where can the British celebrity boyfriend be found?

Let me tell you, walking your dog with you on a pavement in North London, the person who he is the British celebrity boyfriend to is always an American.

I'm sorry, it just doesn't matter if well, that's where the Britishness comes in because there's lots of British boyfriend.

There's lots of British people who have British boyfriends.

Yeah, but there may be other geographical facts.

Continental Europe or indeed Australia, but they have you're within America.

Or Ireland.

Or Ireland.

Where else might you see them?

Certainly outside certain pubs in West London and North London, drinking a pint of Camden Hells and smoking a roll-up, okay?

You're not...

Sorry, you're not having your supper at 5.30 now.

You are in a cross-cultural relationship, I should say.

So you have to learn to do these things with a British celebrity boyfriend.

So you love them, and you tell interviewers how much you enjoy them and how refreshing it is.

And you say, I'll tell you how it all ends at the end, by the way.

Oh, not well.

Yes.

So you get people who are essentially from California and suddenly they're outside a British pub with both hands around a pint.

Yeah, yeah.

And they're like, they want to tell you about a pint.

But they're not British.

They won't do the one-handed.

They can't.

No, they don't drink a one-handed pint.

You might see them at Wimbledon, the British Celebrity Boyfriend.

They won't wear their sunglasses all day at Wimbledon because they understand it's not a Malibu wedding.

So they understand that that's just not what you do.

You'll find them on a line bike.

They love line bikes.

Now, Timothy Shalamo, he, who I'm afraid, can't be a British celebrity boyfriend, is American,

could play one in a film would and I think would do it very convincingly.

He of course rode a line bike all the way up the red carpet of the premier the London Premier

But you know what

he's with a Kardashian and you know they they don't like old antiques they like reproduction things So in my view in a way he's a bit of a reproduction British celebrity boyfriend like a French copy yeah like a French copy I'd have loved it if his line bike was doing the beep beep beep noise that you hear everywhere around London where people have stolen our line bike yes that would have been good all the way up the red carpet.

But

okay, so that's what you'll find him.

Now, where's he going to take you?

As I've just said, a football match.

He will take you to a football match.

Don't worry, it probably only has to happen once.

The games last 90 minutes.

That's 9-0.

It will probably be Premier League.

It could be championship, depending on the British celebrity boyfriend.

But just say you loved the energy.

It was brilliant.

And then all the other times you're asked just saying, I'm getting an eyebrow shape and dying.

That's good.

And when they say, and did you have a pie?

Just go, yes.

Most crucially, you will find the British boy celebrity boyfriend kissing in the street.

Okay.

That's how they found out that Olivia Wild's with Casper Joplin because she's kissing him in the street.

They all kiss in the street.

Okay.

You will always find pictures of them kissing in the street.

Going, you know, outside, maybe outside one of those pubs I was talking to, maybe on the dog walk, but they kiss in the street.

You are in a cross-cultural relationship, and things are very, very different.

You have a basic level of irony you're dealing with now.

There's a lot of things that the American with a British celebrity boyfriend is having to take on board.

I spoke to a friend of mine who comes from a very well-to-do background.

You wouldn't know.

He's lovely.

And

he has an American wife.

He said it's great because when you take an American home to your parents, they have no idea what class she is.

So they're just very accepting.

So he's had like partners before who they're like, yeah, I don't know.

Is that is she one of us?

And with Americans, they're like, no, maybe.

So it kind of works for everyone.

Because I think, by the way, a lot of these celebrity boyfriends come from quite moneyed backgrounds.

Quite a lot of them.

Some of them.

We'll see in the top.

We'll see when we get to the toilet.

I know what you mean.

I know what you mean.

Casper Jopling, for example, would be.

Oh, yeah.

Well,

because his father was the subject of

the famous Alan Clark diss saying that he'd had to buy his own furniture.

That was about Michael Joplin when Alan Clark, as a sort of frightfully awful

and naughty Tory minister, said that he had to buy his own furniture.

I mean, as someone who's just bought two sofas, discovered they're wrong and is going to have to send them back at

long length of time to be replaced with two slightly different sofas in the same colour.

I have to say, Alan, you're missing out on all the fun.

I mean, this is what furniture buying is like.

Yeah, this is not essentially the rest is entertainment, but what genuinely, what is it with lead times on sofas?

It's, I mean, it's extraordinary.

I mean, something's up there, isn't it?

I mean, it's that feels like the mafia are involved somehow in sofas because they're like 16 weeks.

I mean, you make a lot of them, and it's literally all you do, and you know that people like them.

I don't think it's taking 16 weeks to to make a sofa something especially some

but some places just to try and desperately wrestle it back towards our topic i bet you it doesn't in america in fact actually

do you know what i have not finished on sofas well i'm so sorry did you look at me and think i'd finished on sofas so sorry i should know because yeah you really misread me because there are some places say we'll deliver you a sofa tomorrow so just so just be like those places yes anyway that's that's all i have to say about that okay i'm so sorry if you off before that if you make sofas have sofas available if we can just wrestle it back okay the home of the British celebrity boyfriend, then let's move it on to that.

What you'll always notice when you read about celebrity properties in Los Angeles is the relationship of bathrooms to bedrooms.

Any British celebrity boyfriend will live in a property that has either the same amount of bathrooms to bedrooms, pretty nice, or as is more usual, fewer.

In America, it's always like they have

six bedrooms and 12 bathrooms.

You see, this is why Megan, when she was with her British celebrity boyfriend, now husband, she was absolutely appalled that she lived in this Nottingham cottage.

I was a little bit like, hey, you know, you've got no kids.

You're living in a two-bedroom Christopher Wren cottage in the central Kensington.

It's not that bad.

But Oprah came around and said it was very small.

So this is, this is something that happens with a British celebrity boyfriend that you're not, you haven't got one of those things where the pool house is slightly larger than number 10 Downing Street, which is what we live in.

So you get upsides, which is you get to go to pubs and you get to go to championship football, but there are downsides in that there are fewer bathrooms than you are used to.

Can it be dangerous?

Yeah, I think it can be actually almost tip over into a disorder because don't forget Guy Ritchie was once a British celebrity boyfriend.

Of course he was.

He's an exemplar as well.

Can I ask another, just a very quick satorial thing?

I know we've had the wood on overcoats and the scarves and what have you.

Where do we stand?

Because to my mind, if I picture a British celebrity boyfriend, there is often a flat cap.

Many different types of cap, certainly something influenced by Peaky Blinders and more of a Tommy Shelby, a a baker, but you know, yes, absolutely.

Headgear is a thing and not a baseball cap, except sometimes if it's a really busy pub.

Guy Ritchie was a British celebrity boyfriend.

The woman to whom he was a British celebrity boyfriend and then later husband, Madonna.

Here you've got an amazing situation.

One of the world's coolest people from Detroit comes over.

and then starts get has got completely hamstrung by this business starts talking about like shooting weekends and pheasants yeah i remember feeling at the time this is so awful you madonna you have a responsibility to be American and cool.

You know, if I wanted to be bored to tears by this stuff, I would have married someone like me and moved back to the country.

Did she think that he was a bona fide Cockney?

Well, no, because I don't think she would have, that would have been appealing to her.

He had to drop the Cockney Act at that point.

No, then you were like, oh, I'm the sort of person who go and live in Cecil Wheaton house.

And my mother, my stepmother's like chairman of the Kensington and Chelsea Conservative Party Association.

So I think you just suddenly, you know, he's had a very fluid sort of supposed social background.

Yes, you know, she's someone who went to boarding school.

And as I say, when they found their mother's house, it was so big it had to be printed over a spread in the Daily Mail.

Wow.

Yeah, he's had a hell of a journey through the British class system, hasn't he?

In fact, it's been incredibly static.

So that was an example of a disorder which she eventually managed to cure herself of.

Thank goodness.

And he remains, you know,

a British boyfriend, but not and a British husband, but not a celebrity one.

And why?

Has he aged out of it?

Yeah, I think he has aged out of it.

There are a couple in my top 10 who are sort of nearly aging out of it.

Okay.

I've got to have one in there because somebody, a British celebrity boyfriend, has been released back onto the market.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Let's do the top 10.

Let's get to the top 10 now.

Okay.

Right.

At 10, I'm going to put Casper Joplin because we've got to assume that Olivia Wilde is a connoisseur after Harry Styles, that she would be a connoisseur.

I mean, that's tough to go out with someone after

they've gone out with Harry Styles.

Having said that, there's quite a few of those people.

So

with the most respect and love to him, there are quite a few of those people.

So I think, you know, you have to be aware that you might be called up at some point to go out with someone who's gone out with Harry Harry Starles at some point.

I suppose one assumes, yes, in certain circles, that your partner has dated Harry Styles unless told otherwise.

Yeah.

I think it's probably better to regard it as a sort of opt-out thing.

So we'll put Jopling at 10 because I think he's certainly one to watch.

And he's a gallerist.

So he's not really a celebrity, but he's sort of...

He's a celebrity.

Yeah.

But he could become a celebrity.

Well, that's it because

the whole idea of these relationships is you multiply rather than divide.

Absolutely.

It amplifies both of your celebrities in interesting ways.

Very much so.

Now, at nine,

released recently back on the market after Katy Perry has taken up with former Canadian leader Justin True.

Yes.

Is Orlando Bloom.

I almost feel he's aging out.

But listen, he's been a British celebrity boyfriend to Katie Perry, perry to kate bosworth imagine how many scarves he's got and every morning after remember after his turkey and kale smoothie or whatever he has he goes in off into his little production company office to come up with roles for women minorities and myself so that is mega british celebrity boyfriend territory At number eight, I'm going to have Joe Alwyn, but just he was with Joe Alwyn.

Yeah, he was with Taylor Swift for a long time.

Okay, I haven't

in so many ways, even though it's only with one person.

It was a long relationship.

He was a very iconic Taylor Swift boyfriend.

And I feel there's more to give there.

So I've got to put him at number eight.

Especially as it's Taylor Swift.

I mean,

that's a multiple, isn't it?

Now, at seven, and we're currently with a Brazilian, but I just feel this person potentially has a huge amount to offer to the British celebrity boyfriend market.

And I don't want it to feel like it's a hegemonina that young people can't break into.

Cruise Beckham.

Come on.

Come on.

Really?

Come on.

Oh, yes.

So Cruz is the youngest son.

Yes.

I mean, there is obviously an elder British celebrity boyfriend now, husband, but who's no longer spoken of.

And what does Cruz do?

Well, Cruz is a musician.

New music is coming imminently, imminently.

He's been wearing t-shirts with

the release date on it a lot.

And I honestly think it's like coming in the next 10 minutes, perhaps.

Oh, my God.

I mean, that feels like a...

And

is he a solo artist or is he in a band?

I bet he's a solo artist.

I think he's sort of one of those people who sort of practices with the band, but we don't know what the band is.

So I think it's one of those sort of bands.

I imagine that if they did, you know, the band is relatively indischatable.

Yes.

At number six, I've got Prince Harry.

Okay, yeah, yeah.

Now, he is in many ways the artist.

Come on.

He's got a lot of scarves.

He, you know, you've got to be able to deal with a certain level of Americana.

Yeah.

You'll see him outside a pub.

Oh, yeah.

He's comfortable.

Well, I mean, I think I'm not sure he's allowed to do those things anymore.

And it's not just because of the home office not doing the security.

But I think, so he's there.

He comes from quite a well-to-do background, doesn't he?

he

i'm told yeah um and you know would live in a house with actually i think it has got um something like

eight bedrooms and 16 bathrooms yes that's whenever you see people in the supermarket buying like 16 packs of toilet roll yeah i see i think yeah you've either got a big family or a lot of bathrooms yeah and if you went down to the costco and montecito i think he'd be in there doing

i don't think he'd be in there i think one of his people would be in there yeah i don't think also there's a costco in montecito it was just for the purposes of a joke.

Can I tell you who I found out?

Yeah.

Can I tell you who I found out?

He's married almost into royalty.

Who?

Mike Skinner.

Oh, yeah.

From the streets.

Yeah.

But yeah, he literally has someone to dry his eyes for him now.

Yeah.

At five, I have Andrew Garfield.

Now, he is.

I think I get Andrew Garfield and Orlando Bloom mixed up.

Yeah.

But no, I know.

Well, no, I mean,

he's further up the table because more desirable in all manners.

He's been out with Emma Stone and Monica Barbaro now.

So at number four.

Monica who?

Barbaro.

Monica Barbaro.

Okay.

At number four, we have Tom Holland, you know, engaged to send over.

The constancy there is lovely and we love to see that.

So that is a, he's a really classic British celebrity.

But he's like a proper, like of all the people you've mentioned,

he's someone that I would go out with, if you know what I mean.

It were

the world a different shape.

Would you?

With Andrew Garfield.

Oh, I love him.

Oh, really?

That's interesting.

The one who was on Twitter.

There's some other ones that aren't on here.

You know, I I think just haven't been a British celebrity, but James Norton has a huge amount to offer as a British celebrity boyfriend.

Hasn't been one yet, but could be.

Just hardly know.

No, because they're married and they've got a baby.

Oh, that's good.

Which is lovely.

I loved.

Yeah.

And

his wife.

He would have made a good one, though.

I'm struggling with the placing of the top three.

Or the second.

I'm genuinely excited about this.

Well, you know, he's number one, but two and three.

Two and three.

I think I'll have to make them equal third.

Equal second.

Yeah.

Oh, don't you say equal third?

No.

No, because you got number one, then you got two equal seconds, then you got a fourth.

Okay.

Because otherwise, who's number two?

Sometimes people say equal third.

No.

No, they don't.

If you were going the other way around.

In sport, it can happen.

No.

No, I'm so sorry.

I know.

Will it happen?

Sometimes they'll say first, equal second, and then third.

You go, no, if...

If there's two people who are equal second, then you're fourth.

I'm not going to get too hard into this because we've got to talk about the list.

Mescal.

Come on.

Mescal.

I think he should be third because he's not british yeah so do i yeah

that's that's a really easy way of doing it okay i'm like craig revel horde he was casting vote yeah currently a gracie obram obviously previously

tv bridges yes got to think could go much further in this particular category as time goes on i mean he's a he's a catch yeah it must be weird to be paul mescal or any of these people because you know he still has to just you know, like all of us who've had relationships, you just, you've still got to have a relationship.

And you can't at any point wake up in in the morning and go, I'm one of the great boyfriends.

I'm one of the absolute world, you know, one of the great catches.

You know, you have to go, oh, no, I must make you a cup of tea.

Yes, you have to.

And I think you would.

I think you think Mentel's making you a cup of tea for no, absolutely no question.

Certainly taking you out to sit outside a pub.

Louis Partridge.

Come on.

Louis Partridge.

Yeah, currently with Olivia Rodriguez.

Never.

Oh, no.

You've had her name before.

Actor.

No.

Never.

In lots of different things.

Currently in

House of Guinness, Olivia Rodrigo.

Oh, I like Olivia Rodrigo.

If he was like in front of me in the queue at Costa, I wouldn't know him.

Louis Partridge.

Okay, tell me about Louis Partridge.

Well, I'm telling you, he's dating Olivia Rodrigo.

He's very, he's, you know, you've got to be wry about it.

You've got to say, oh, I just enjoy being the plus one, even though you're forging a big career yourself and you're kind of like a hot young actor that's getting lots of different things.

So I would definitely put him, and I think he has a lot more to give in this department because he's very young.

Okay.

I think if you're called Olivia Rodrigo and then you got married and you were called Olivia Partridge, I think that's a downgrade.

She'll probably keep her name, Richard.

She's an international superstar.

I think they do.

Okay.

Now, number one.

Number one.

For heritage reasons and now reasons and for all the reasons, it obviously has to be Harry Styles.

Of course.

Olivia Wilde, who brought us to this item in the first place, he's gone out with.

Kendall Jenner, Taylor Swift.

I mean, several others.

Did you get out with Taylor Swift?

And now, Zoe Kravitz.

Okay.

Harry Styles is out there being absolute uh British celebrity boyfriend the entire time.

God, Lenny Kravitz must be going.

Call that a scarf.

Yes, call that a scarf.

I've got some scarves.

But yeah, he can't beat her dad on the scarves, and he will certainly own more scarves than her father.

He seems like a nice guy, Harry Styles, as far as I can make out.

Everyone loves Harry Styles.

Yeah, everyone loves him.

Everyone loves Harry Stevens.

I've never heard anyone say that him.

This is what I mean.

These guys do tend to be really nice guys.

Yes, there's some good ones on that list.

I mean, there's some slightly preposterous ones.

Of course there are.

Prince Harry and Orlando.

But that's like, I mean, in any list of 10 men, most of them are going to be preposterous.

We've all met men.

But I would say that...

Styles is the master of the form.

Now, if you're asking me how this all ends.

Yes, please.

I have to say that looking at the form book, it generally ends with you going back to America and marrying like a ball player or an ice road trucker or something like that and writing a song like Wood.

I don't make the rules.

Maybe the cultural divide can't be breached in perpetuity.

So there's a lovely American thing where they get to have a little kind of British holiday.

In fact, like the holiday.

Yes.

Like that movie, right?

Well, that is a field guide, I hope, to something.

And you can see them doing all of these things.

I mean, you know, just run your, run your way through Google Images.

You'll find them all on lime bikes outside, you know, holding a Camden Hells, walking a dog in North London.

These, this is the, this is the type.

These are the activities.

Keep watching because new ones keep coming onto the scene.

And, you know, don't assume that top 10

is a hegemony.

It can change.

That can change.

It's fluid.

Will you at any point just

update us occasionally?

I will update you, yes.

If there's a new entry in that.

If people are coming in on and off the market.

If, for example, Casper Jopling doesn't have the

longevity that we're currently thinking he might do.

Well, then it would be interesting to see what he does next.

That was an education.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

I hope you have more neurons now than when we started.

Genuinely, I love it.

I genuinely love hearing about people I've never heard of.

Above all, I want this podcast to be improving.

And I think that really was mission statement critical.

It is.

It's like when you finish listening to a diary of a CEO and think, great, I've got five or six takeaways for my life there, which I will instantly forget.

Thank you.

We're the same, aren't we?

And funnily enough,

after the adverts, when we're going to talk about Warner Music, I have there's a British celebrity boyfriend in that.

I know who you mean.

As well, potential British celebrity boyfriend speaks of that.

So we can talk about that.

Marina, thank you so much.

Shall we have some ads?

Let's do that.

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The detective said missing kids usually come home.

What happens when they don't?

Based on a true story, police looking for John Gacy.

We discovered bodies by the looks of it, the younger man,

the things he did to those kids.

He's sick.

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Devil in Disguise, John Wayne Gacy.

Streaming now, only on Peacock.

Do you know how many there are?

Up to you to find out.

Welcome back, everybody.

By the way, I should mention that our Thursday QA is with Ben Elton, the writer of so many amazing things, from the young ones to Black Adder to all.

I mean, he's- We have had a lot of questions for Ben Elton, and we will be putting the best ones

and some of the worst ones to him.

On Thursday, we are now going to talk about all the dramas at Warner Music and what that sort of means for the British music music industry and also globally.

Yeah, the British music industry is the thing.

Anyone who's in the British music industry, what's recently happened at Warner's, everyone is up in arms and we'll discuss why that might be.

The context of this whole thing is most of the world's recorded music is controlled by three companies.

It's a Universal Music Group, it's Sony Music and it's Warner's Music.

The Majors.

The Majors, exactly.

And they control about 70% of the market, which might as well be pretty much.

Yeah.

Every single big act you've ever heard of are on one of those labels in the UK or in the US or whatever.

Run by, and some of these, remember some of these names.

Warner's Music is owned by Len Blavatnik, friend of the podcast, A24, all of that kind of stuff, billionaire who runs absolutely everything.

Remember the surname Blavatnik because we'll get on to it again.

The other two, Universal and Sony, are run by Lucien Grange, runs Universal Music Group, and Rob Stringer runs Sony.

Both Brits, by the way.

And that's significant because Britain punches far, far, far, far above its weight in music.

And it has done forever.

It always has.

It was New York, LA, and then London.

Yeah, you want to go back to the Beatles.

I mean, we just, we absolutely are one of the big powers in recorded music, and which is why our music industry has always been so huge, why it's always been so loved, why, you know, the heritage of it is so huge, and why it's just fetishized by everyone around the world, British music.

Now, about a month ago, uh, Warner's UK, a guy called Tony Harlow, leaves being the head of Warner's UK.

Um, who do they replace him with?

Nobody.

Okay, so nobody now runs Warner's UK.

And they're not waiting for somebody or they're not putting out for tender.

They just don't think that Warner's UK needs somebody running it.

So Warner's UK is now run from America.

So it's run by Warner's and run by Atlantic Records as well.

Yeah, they have Atlantic and Warner, and those are the two sort of big labels under the Warner Music aegis.

So Warner's, which is the label which, you know, it's brought us Led Zeppelin, David Bowie, Pink Floyd, Iron Maiden, Radiohead, Charlie XCX, Duel Leaper, Stormzy, Fred again.

I mean it's this huge thing.

There is now a sense that nobody in the UK needs to run it.

We don't need any British input into how Warner's is run.

It is run instead from America.

That's department heads reporting to big American executives.

So what is a record company?

Essentially, if you're Warner's, you know, record companies do an awful lot of terrible things, but they are sort of a glue which hold the whole of the British music industry together.

They have A ⁇ R people, they have people with amazing ears who, you know, know a hit when they hear it.

They'll bring bands on, they'll develop bands, they will introduce bands to other types of music.

There's just this thing that this kind of lifeblood running through the whole of British music, these record companies have been incredibly important.

We now

feel that.

Certainly Warners feel it, whatever what Sony and Universal are going to do, we will get on to.

But there's this feeling that that is no longer how we discover music.

That's no longer how we grow music.

That actually this whole kind of phalanx of A ⁇ R people and, you know, Brits with great ears in tiny pubs in northern towns, you know, finding the next big thing, or, you know, Adam McGee finding Oasis in Glasgow.

That is not where we find our music anymore.

That is not how we grow our music anymore.

Everything we do.

pretty much, and this is a simplification, but not much of a simplification.

Everything we do is via TikTok.

That's where we can

instantly road test new songs, new artists, new looks.

We can absolutely get real-time feedback on what music is going to sell, what music appeals to, what demographic, and what music appeals in which countries.

And it means that there is a move afoot to kind of abandon everything that British music was to kind of go, oh, no, these people who managed to find, you know, Pink Floyd and these people who managed to sort of understand what the Zeppelin were and, you know, who helped Bowie along the road.

It's not, that is not the thing we need.

The market will do this job for us.

And the market can be run out of America very, very, very easily.

So it sounds like it's a minor thing that a man loses job running the Warner's record labels in the UK and isn't replaced.

But actually, it's a huge cultural shift.

Sony and Universal.

The first thing, of course, that they'll be doing is they'll be on the phone to Coleplay and Ed Sheeran and Dua Leaper and saying, you know, you don't have a sort of British representation anymore.

You know, you're not being run out of Britain anymore.

Perhaps you'd like to come to us.

That'd be the first thing they're doing.

I do think it's interesting that the last two major artists that were broke internationally in the UK and we haven't had any for a long time, I would say, were Dua Lipa and Charlie XEX.

Yeah.

And even Charlie XEX maybe isn't at that Dua Lipa level of being a sort of global superstar yet, but there hasn't really been anyone since then because the charts are US dominated.

Yeah, and the charts are US dominated because the pipeline into the chart is almost entirely TikTok.

So if I'm Universal or Sony, the first thing I'm doing, I'm talking to Ed Shear and talking to ColePlay, Duoliper, saying, come and see us.

But the second thing I'm doing is just keep an eye and see how this goes for six months at Warners.

And if it works okay for Warner's, do exactly the same thing, which is we don't really need this kind of British

label here.

The Germans are doing the same thing.

Germany has ceded control of the German market to other territories.

All of these record companies will be kind of going, I mean, do we really need need this sort of phalanx of people you know operating out of london and manchester and glasgow and dublin and belfast you know do we do we need that stuff or do we really just need the algorithm to work for us you'd have all these things you had all the different gatekeepers you'd have press and radio and um tv and even latterly i suppose curated playlists things like that none of those move the dial anymore they're effectively now legacy media yeah they used to work that was the apparatus that record companies used in order to promote and get their artists discovered and all of those things.

And by the way, they absolutely abused that process.

It didn't work

perfectly, but at least, you know, great stuff did rise to the top.

But now it is all done, as you say, by the algorithms principally of TikTok.

As these people said in their own statement, you know, weight of population matters hugely.

And even people at Warners have said that in their own statements.

It's like...

In the Anglophone world, the US is going to dominate.

And you have to be a success on streaming instantly and you have to be a success globally or it doesn't work.

And really, you have to be in, in this case, in success in the Anglophone world.

And I think that it's very difficult

for them to argue against this population.

And we can do so much more for you, as they've put it.

Headcount right-sizing, one of those euphorisms.

And so you think, okay, well, who runs Atlantic Records over in the States who are now essentially overseeing?

Warner's UK and overseeing all those new bands and young bands and, you know,

the pipeline that we've known and loved for many, many years.

Who is running Atlantic Records?

Two people.

And the surnames will be familiar to anybody who was listening to the people who run the big record labels because one is Val Blavatnik, who is Len Blavatnik's son, who's on the board of Warner Music Group in the States and runs Atlantic Records.

And the other is Elliot Grange, who is the son of Lucian Grange, who runs the Universal Music Group.

I'm not saying there's any nepotism here at all, but certainly...

Two of the men who run the two biggest music groups in the world, their two sons are running Atlantic Records and now in charge of all of Warner's music.

But by the way, Elliot Grange absolutely could be a British celebrity boyfriend.

Who's he dating?

Sophia Ritchie, who is a sort of Nepo model slash influencer.

She's Lionel Ritchie's daughter, Nicole Ritchie's sister.

I think they're married now and they have children.

Yes, they seem very happy.

And she's Kardashian adjacent.

Yes, she is.

Everything is becoming a singularity.

Yeah, it is.

Every single thing is becoming a singularity.

Yeah, everything flows through a very small group of people.

Now, Elliot Grange, well I'm good saying, is a Nepo baby, but you know, he out of college, you know, started running music nights and started, you know, promoting things,

then sets up a record label.

It's So Kendall.

Sorry, it's So Kendall.

I mean, Kendall from Succession, not Kendall Jenner.

Yeah, the other dynasty, yes.

Yes.

Given what his dad does, you know, he's got a hip-hop label.

He used to do spreadbetting when he was a teenager on gold, sugar, and oil.

Did he?

I keep thinking of Kendall just saying that, just trying to destroy Walter when he's in that scene in succession, saying the only two verticals that are working are food and weed.

That's the sort of person I see, Elliot Rogerize.

You know, when we talked about nightclubbing and what had ruined it, and one of my things that I said had ruined it was bottle service.

Yes.

When he was at university, he ran a bottle.

He started up a sort of bottle service promotion thing in Boston nightclubs where he went to college.

But he set up his own record label, 10K Records, and he absolutely plowed the...

TikTok faro.

Ice Spice would be probably the biggest act that he's doing.

He's obsessed with SoundCloud as well.

He just thinks it's like a place where you can see immediately

you can reach out immediately to people.

You can see the average age of people using it is like something ridiculous, like 19 or 20, and you can see what they're doing immediately.

And by the way, he's right.

Yeah.

I mean, that is an incredibly useful tool if you are a record company.

executive and you know he did that his record label did well and now he's running it atlantic but by the way his his father lucian grains did things a completely different way and he grew universal music group to you know billions upon billions upon billions of value by doing things the old way, the traditional way.

So, perhaps that works as well.

But so, Elliot Grange got into Atlantic Records via the medium of having his own label, which was very, very, very TikTok influenced.

So, that is definitively the way that Atlantic Records is going to go, which means that's the way that Warner music is going to go as well.

So, if you talk to anyone who's in the British music business, it's sort of they just feel sad.

I think I think they feel like an era has ended.

I think they feel like the organic way in which bands used to grow and acts used to grow can't really happen anymore.

I think they feel like they are resigned to the algorithm deciding everything that we are going to listen to.

And again, algorithms sometimes, you know, work for a very good reason.

So, you know, there's all sorts of bands who wouldn't have been discovered, who will be discovered because of the algorithm.

But we are losing a subculture.

over here.

I get it.

If I was in the British music business, I'd feel much the same, despite, by the way, as we say, the many, many, many excesses of the the British music business over the years and the many issues with it.

But what you would hope, it does provoke a reaction.

You would hope that actually,

if Warner Music and if, you know, Sony and Universal follow their lead over here, if suddenly they abandon that whole network of A ⁇ R people and then of, you know, bands and acts organically growing and, you know, subcultures in certain cities spawning acts who then team up with each other and then suddenly you've got this stuff, then you have to figure that the independent independent sector will find a way to make money will suddenly go it's all very well finding you know a big hit on tick tock which is one minute 20 seconds long and has this amazing hook which hits exactly the right time and in exactly the right video that's all grand and there's loads of money to be made in it but

Does that mean you're going to find Adele or Coldplay or Stormzy?

I mean, almost certainly not.

No major even can make a deal with an artist in the way that they would have been able to 10, 20, and obviously many years before that, because people are saying, no, I'm not going to give you nearly so much of my ownership.

You're more of an artist service company to me.

I have other ways of reaching out directly.

You know, I'm not kind of completely dependent on you for distribution and things in the way that I would have been.

I do think people see that business of having to be global.

And I do think that they see that they have that being with a company that kind of pushes you straight into the US is helpful.

Another thing I will say is that I do think so many of these people, these labels have become so sort of, they're risk averse anyway.

If you look at just how much money is now being spent on buying catalogs, this is like some, you know, just buying things.

They just regard them as they're, it's, it's a form of venture capital.

They all feel like, am I now, I went into music and I'm now sort of in venture capital.

That's where so much capital is flowing into.

in the music industry might have been in the old days you would hope we've been on new deals that might discover new things about 20 billion has gone into buying these back catalogs really recently warners and Bain did a JV, a joint venture, and I think they put a billion immediately into buying things.

And we got the red-hot chili peppers, things like that.

So much of it is this back catalogue, kind of private equity-driven stuff where it's just an asset and it's just going to give you a steady income.

And it's not about discovery.

It's a form of being stuck in the past.

Yeah, and you talk to again, anyone in the industry, and they will say that.

They'll say, so much of our job now, if you are Sony or if you're Universal or if you're warners is that catalogue yeah you know i mean that's what it is because we have the canon of music that will sell forever you know your queens your beatles stuff like that and and it is enormously profitable but it is not the industry that almost all of those people signed up for they did not sign up for an industry where everything is either a something that you heard on tick tock this morning or b something that was released in 1976 which is where all the money now is coming from in the uk music business because that's where all the money is coming from in the US music business and those two things have become the same thing.

So the two ways to become a really, really big famous artist now are either to be on TikTok or to already be a big famous artist.

Those are the only two weeks in.

But it's interesting.

So Elliot Grain said to the Wall Street Journal, he said, I'm not doubting any of the human capabilities of these great guys, women and companies.

However, they grew up in the fax machine era.

And he's absolutely right.

By the way, they did absolutely grow up in the fax machine era.

But he has to recognize that he's growing up in the TikTok era.

And in 20 years' time, TikTok will sound as ridiculous as a fax machine.

And however you make money in the next five years, I absolutely get it through TikTok.

But

there will never, ever, ever be a replacement for going to a small room above a small pub and seeing an act or seeing a band.

play live, sing live who absolutely blow you away.

So that industry will still exist.

It just won't be this behemoth industry that everyone has grown up with over the last 30 years.

But there'll be some smart young entrepreneur and there are, you know, you can see in the grime scene and stuff like that, the money that people are making through live events, through kind of acts that they've just discovered, through monetizing things in different ways.

That becomes a sort of new version of punk, becomes a new way of

finding music and making music.

And

the absolute sort of needle sharp following of profits that TikTok brings and basically everything in America brings is absolutely all well and and good and it will make a lot of people a lot of money.

But it feels like it leaves a vacuum.

And the one thing that creativity loves is a vacuum.

And we should say that independent is growing all the time and I mean completely independent.

People who are not tied to any labor and stay independent even the bigger they get and they don't ever have to have an association with a major and they can get bigger and bigger.

And there are many, many artists like that who have gone all the way and it's becoming a bigger and bigger share of things.

Because people feel they don't need the services that the record company provides or they can piece them together from different places.

They don't need one person to manage it all for them.

Well, that's the advantage of TikTok and YouTube and things like that is, you know, if you have something about you, there are ways and means that you can get your music heard.

We talk about it only because you talk to anyone in the British music industry at the moment and everyone.

feels very sad and unhappy that their industry is not what it was.

And that's tough when you've been in it for 30 years or something like that.

And you're not at the stage where you can start again and think, oh, great.

Yeah, but this gives me the opportunity to go off by myself and set something up.

You You know, you're not going to do that when you're, you know, 55 or 60.

You're just, you're just not.

There's a sadness for a generation.

There's an opportunity for a generation.

But I do think that singularity where everything is moving to one point, which is a group of people listening to TikTok who are in the orbits of the Kardashians seems to be just infecting every single one of our industries.

And Lemblavatnik seems to be at the top of all of it.

I mean, fair play to him.

Okay.

That was very interesting.

But I am also extremely interested, Richard, to hear from you about what might be the number one book this Christmas.

Everything's really ramping up now as to what's selling and what's not selling, what's about to sell.

So I just wanted to mention a few things that people maybe had not heard of, which I think would make great presents for Christmas.

But I'll also predict what I think is going to be Christmas number one because we've been right the last couple of years.

The entertainment gift guide should be a thing.

Shouldn't it be?

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah, exactly.

Shall we start with autobiography?

So autobiographies have had a terrible time of it.

You know, that was 10 years ago.

That's the only thing that sold was autobiographies.

They went crazy.

You know, Billy Connolly's autobiography, Peter Kay.

These were the huge, huge, huge sellers.

And now they're like, none of them are selling an awful lot.

But I think there's quite an interesting crop this year.

So again, if you know someone who likes any of these people, Kathy Burke has an autobiography out.

I mean, that's going to be a good read, right?

Bradley Wiggins,

if you're minded.

Yeah.

I wonder how much we'll hear about what really goes on in cycling there.

Gazza has a new one out.

Yes.

Which apparently is.

I've read the serialization.

I mean, he's certainly got a story to tell, has he not?

Several stories.

Anthony Hopkins has got one out.

That feels like the thing that 10 years ago would have sold like a million copies.

Nowadays, honestly, there's something about the autobiography market that's collapsed, which may be that everyone shares everything about themselves on Instagram.

constantly.

There's no kind of magic to anything.

Yes, although I don't think of someone as like Anthony Hopkins as that type of person.

I found him, you know, for his whole career, he's been so inscrutable in so many ways.

but perhaps just the general idea of sharing has just made people feel they have it all the time anyway ben elton has one out freddy flintoff has chris mccausland yeah the comedian has one out mark ronson night people that's a really good um autobiography the autobiography i think might sell best is susie wolf the uh the racing driver in f1 uh exec and all that stuff she's got a book called driven which is pretty much what every single book ever written by anyone who's worked in f1 is called but it you know it work it works as a title F1 and things like that said incredibly well.

Guy Martin, who does all the kind of motorbike shows and stunt shows on Channel 4, his autobiographies always sell like absolute crazy.

And you can see publishers going, wait a minute, we published a book by a Hollywood actor and it's selling a tenth of this book by a guy who just drives a motorcycle.

Does he?

Does he just do that?

He's an incredibly engaged fan base, as we know.

It's incredibly engaged.

And when you want to gift something, of course, something that's in the world that you understand that you love is an incredibly great gift.

So I think Susie Wolf might be the biggest seller there.

In terms of the non-fiction, Jamie Oliver is absolutely back, back, back.

So he's had a few years where he sold fewer copies.

And for whatever reason, often his marketing department's got better.

His book, Eat Yourself Healthy, is his biggest selling book for a really, really long time.

And that's absolutely in the running for Christmas number one.

Mel Robbins, the self-help guru, who does the let them theory.

And Mel Robbins has sold probably more books around the world than anybody.

So she might be a Christmas number one.

Bear Grylls has done the story of Jesus, the greatest story ever told.

Eyewitness accounts of the story of Jesus, essentially told by other people from the Bible.

Listen, it's got great reviews.

I had a little look through.

I thought, yeah, but it's got a lot of five-star reviews.

But what about the one-star reviews?

I thought, I'll have a look at some of those.

The only two I could find.

One was, really love this book, but it was delivered to the wrong address.

That was a one-star rate.

And this book is terrific, but the font is very small.

So Bear Grills.

It's a bit when he goes off into the wilderness, but actually, Bear Grylls is actually there with him for the 40 days.

Oh, that's a great

watch.

And they're filming it for Netflix.

Yeah.

Virginia Guffray, Nobody's Girl is out this week, and that is going to be a huge bestseller as well.

Books that I think people would love to give as gifts as well.

And we talked before about the Map Men on YouTube and Mark Cooper-Jones and Jay Foreman.

And they have got a book called This Way Up, which is the world's worst maps, but essentially telling the story of the world via maps.

And they are so brilliant.

In fact, fact, there's a quote on the front of it from the podcast because we were so nice about them.

And they said, could they use it?

And they said, yeah, of course they could.

But that for any teen, anyone who's interested in the world, that's an unbelievably great gift.

It's called This Way Up.

And I think that is going to be a surprise bestseller this Christmas as well.

I think Susie Wolfe is going to take people by surprise.

I think This Way Up is going to take people by.

surprise as well.

John Elledge has written a book called History of the World in 47 Borders.

I love this book.

Yeah.

I love John Elledge and I love the way he looks at the world.

And this is,

again, all these kind of disputed borders, all sorts of different things.

It's broken down into sections and you can do one at a time and you'll just know something about a bit of the world that you didn't understand before.

That's a terrific one.

And he's a funny writer as well.

So he writes it in a very entertaining way.

So it's not stodgy at all.

So that's almost like the grown-up version of This Way Up.

But both of those books, I think, would be absolutely incredible.

presents for anyone who's interested in the world at all,

which is sort of all of us, I would say.

In terms of novels, Dan Brown's The Secret of Secrets is not going to be the Christmas number one.

I absolutely guarantee that, which is sold very well, but it's not in the way that Dan Brown used to sell.

Ones I'd recommend, Anne Cleves has a new Shetland book out, a new Duke.

Jimmy Perez book, Killing Stones, and everything that Anne Cleves writes is incredible.

Mick Heron's Clown Town, if you love slow horses, his new book is terrific as well.

William Boyd has a new book out, Bob Mortimer.

Martina Cole has a new one out.

No regret.

Her book is called.

But Christmas number one, what is going to be Christmas number one?

Guinness Book of Records, always in the fight.

In fact, it was Christmas number one last year.

So that's a possibility.

Other possibilities for Christmas number one.

Board of Lunch, Nathan Anthony, who's one of these food bloggers whose books sell like absolute bilio, and he's coming out for the Christmas market this year.

Often those books come out in January.

He's coming out for the Christmas market.

That absolutely has a shot.

And Clarkson is bringing out another diddly squat and bringing it out quite close to Christmas, which is the coward's way of bringing out a book because, you know, it gives you more chance of being Christmas number one.

If he had any guts at all, Clarkson needed a bought that out.

Any guts at all?

Yeah, yeah.

If he was any sort of a man, he's coming out late in an attempt to

steal that away.

So they might do it, but this is the book I think will be Christmas number one.

I think Christmas number one this year.

You know, The Boy, the Mole, The Fox and the Horse?

Yes.

Charlie McAzey.

which came out a few years ago was an absolute phenomenon.

And also because it's got the boy, the mole, the fox and the horse, it's also, I always think of the question writers on OnlyConnect when a list of four things comes up because they just, you just think of them going, oh my God, thank you so much.

This is like a perfect question for us.

But he has a new book out, which is the same characters.

That's a clever idea.

And it's called Always Remember.

And I think that that will be our Christmas number one.

He's the biggest selling author of recent years.

But the second biggest, sorry, I should say, because the biggest is you.

I know, but I think Christmas number one

might be a listener.

I think I hope

it will be the biggest book.

I want to talk about it always.

I'd like to be the biggest selling book, but just in that Christmas week, in that very, very, very fine book.

But in recent years, which is the big one overall, is it?

But I don't, yeah, I hope.

Listen, I hope to sell more than him because I always hope to sell more than everybody.

Because

despite how I present myself, I'm very alpha.

And, you know, so I like.

Oh my God, wait, you care about ratings.

Yeah.

You waited a long time in this podcast to make me think I'm not.

I know.

I know.

But

I'm very happy with everyone.

Thank you so much for everyone who's bought and talked to me about The Impossible Fortune as well because

that's been a lot of fun.

And I like being in the game.

I like that.

I liked the year I beat Barack Obama for Christmas number one.

Absolutely.

That was a lot of fun.

Listen, it doesn't matter what I think about what I'm going to do.

I am going to go for...

We got Myrdle right.

We got Guinness Bucket Records right.

I'm going to go for three other three with Charlie McAsee's Always Remember as Christmas number one.

But I would really, really recommend This Way Up and History of the World in 47 Borders if you're looking for a Christmas present.

I won't do any recommendations this week because I feel like I've just done something.

You've done one or something.

Yes, exactly.

But do you have any?

I do.

I have TV.

I am absolutely loving Riot Woman,

Sally Wainwright's

BBC drama.

It's amazing after sort of 15 minutes, you kind of love all the characters.

She is incredible.

I mean, she obviously the cast is incredible.

Joe Scanlon, Lorraine Ashburn,

Amelia Billmore, Tamzin Gregory.

Yeah.

Oh my God, Rosalie Craig.

She must have punched the air when she got that role.

Jesus, I mean, it's amazing.

So I absolutely love Sally Wayne.

I love the show on the BBC.

On Sky Comedy, the chair company.

Oh, I haven't watched it.

I'm so excited.

Okay.

I love Tim Robinson so much.

He's amazing.

And it's, I think there's only just two episodes out now.

And that's like they're dripping out once a week.

I can only say that a minor workplace accident occurs.

A journey into the heart of a conspiracy begins.

But it's so unique.

He's so unique.

If you haven't seen I Think You Should Leave, which is his sketch show, watch five minutes of that.

If it is not for you, you can leave it alone.

If it is for you, if you suddenly go, oh, wow, that's interesting, because I sort of felt like I'd seen every type of comedy there was.

And this is something's just opened the door to something convenient.

And if it appeals to you, then you have a lot of fun things to catch up on.

But I'm very excited to watch the chair company.

Oh my gosh.

I'm excited to talk to you about it.

Okay.

That's about us.

We will be back on Thursday with a

Q ⁇ A edition with Ben Alton.

With your questions.

We'll be asking your questions

to Ben Alton.

About his whole career.

And we will be doing a special Celebrity Traitors episode, which will come out moments after the completion of Thursday's episode.

So there are two episodes this week, Wednesday and Thursday, and it will come moments after the completion of Thursdays.

Hugely excited.

We love this part of our journey.

Absolutely.

Oh my God.

It's literally the best.

It is the best.

I cannot wait for those two episodes.

But in the meantime, thanks, everyone.

We'll see you on Thursday.

See you on Thursday.

This episode was brought to you by Sky.

Skyglass is the new television from Sky, the kind that makes your old teddy feel like a dress rehearsal.

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right there in your living room.

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This episode is brought to you by 20th Century Studios' new film, Springsteen, Deliver Me from Nowhere, starring Golden Globe winner Jeremy Allen White and Academy Award nominee Jeremy Strong.

Scott Cooper, the director of the Academy Award-winning movie Crazy Heart, brings you the story of the most pivotal chapter in the life of an icon, Springsteen.

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