The Real TV Rich List - REVEALED

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Hello and welcome to this episode of The Resters Entertainment with me, Marina Hyde.

And me, Richard Osman.

Hello, Marina.

Hello, Richard.

How are you?

I'm all right.

It's nice.

Very nice to see you.

We've seen each other a few times.

Yes.

We did a special bonus Q ⁇ A.

Thanks everyone for your kind words on that.

Yeah, it was not an emergency podcast, but it was a standalone and it was.

You said it wasn't an emergency podcast, but there were sirens all around and the whole whole studio was taped off.

So, something was going on.

It just said that tape saying, Emergency podcasts do not cross.

But yeah, okay.

Um, this has been ahead of a week for those stories, which are not big enough for us to do a whole item about.

But listen, if you think I didn't spend hours thinking how can we do what happened at the Cold Play concert on the kiss cam.

Do you know what?

I'm so glad you said that because I was about to say to you, I cannot go on with the rest of the podcast before asking you about the

gentleman and the lady on the Cold Play Kiss cam yeah i mean i have i think once seen rupert murdock and jerry hall on a kiss cam and that was obviously disturbing in a number of ways i mean everyone's seen it but if you haven't seen it at the cold play concert the kiss cam picks out this couple who are sort of standing together and the second they see they've been picked out

the guy literally just like goes down on the like hits the floor basically goes down below the parapet and she turns around and puts her head in her hand and does all this sort of stuff they very consciously uncouple don't they

yeah I mean, yeah, they

everyone else is very conscious of their uncoupling as well.

And to the point of which Chris Martin has to say, oh my God, those two.

I mean, are they having an affair or something?

And it turns out that actually they are not with each other in a formal setting, are they?

Although he is the CEO of a company called Astronomer, no idea what they do.

And she is the chief HR officer.

I mean, there you go.

Listen, who do they report themselves to?

That's all.

I mean, there's no one left, is there?

Well, I imagine Mrs.

Astronomer gonna have something to say about it, but

terrible.

I mean, God, can you imagine?

It's quite a moment.

I mean, I don't think they made it as easy as they might have for each other.

I like my favourite online comments a lot of people made the same one, which is, I thought Coldplay weren't releasing singles anymore.

They just released two there.

There's some very good ones.

Yeah.

I mean, our producer was telling me that Mrs.

Astronomer, that people were joking that Mrs.

Astronomer

might say, oh my God, I can't believe I found out my husband makes Coldplay.

Well, listen, but we're not going to do that story.

It feels like we just have.

But we're not also, as Stephen Colbert being cancelled in America, which is an interesting story.

But

to balance it, Banamori is coming back.

So listen, for every yin, there's a yang, but every door that closes, a window opens.

Now, what are we doing?

We are going to talk about talent pay.

So the BBC released their top 25 paid hosts in that list that is deeply flawed as always.

We'll talk about why it's deeply flawed and what the real TV talent pay list might be.

What people get paid for various shows.

We're going to, as you say, spill the tea.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

There'll be tea spill all over this desk.

Now, we're also going to talk about the beauty industry, which has become incredibly linked to entertainment, but is worth an unbelievably surprisingly enormous amount of money a year to the UK economy.

Like, bye-bye, creative industries.

This is like nothing.

This is blowing out of the water.

So we're going to talk a little bit about that because it is actually very linked to screens and beauty tainment as i we might call it beauty tamement and which should we start with i think we'll start with talent pay do you think that do need spelling yeah let's do that shall we so the bbc always bring out their talent list every year and the talent they don't always can i go back and say the story of that because they didn't used to and it was first floated under the idea of david cameron's government bringing out that list i remember him yeah well you remember him but for whatever reason in that era the idea

anyone could be

the idea that anyone could be paid more than the prime minister who had the temerity to work in arts or culture was always regarded as an affront, presumably to the Prime Minister.

Although, you know,

did Tess Daly make Libya a failed state?

Did Tess Daly?

I mean, for me, I'm with Cameron.

The idea that David Attenborough might get paid more than Liz Trust, I find absolutely horrifying.

Yeah, when all of these things, yes, exactly.

So, but it didn't actually happen under him.

And they eventually got it started under Theresa May, who was, you know, another for 13 and a half minutes ago, and Karen Bradley, I think it was the culture secretary at the time, who even by the standards of our culture secretary was a complete imbecile.

She managed to get it started.

So they do publish this list, which is supposedly the top whatever earners.

25, yeah.

It's usually called the Gary Lineker list.

Yeah.

But next year, next year it'll be the Gary Lineke Memorial list.

Yeah.

Because Gary Lineke was always the top of it on what at one point, whatever it was.

And that's been a slightly sliding scale.

If you think that Gary Linekel is the highest paid person,

front of house person at the BBC, wake up.

And I do find it quite bad that every single year is reported as though it were actually true.

It's a great industry of journalism.

Nobody's earned their money there.

Let me tell you, nobody in journalism has earned their money if they're actually believing that that is.

the definitive list of who is paid the most at the BBC.

So the list is people who are paid directly by the BBC.

And so if you look through the list, Lineke is there, Anna Schearer is there.

I think the

second place is Zoe Ball.

Fiona Bruce is in the top 10.

Nick Robinson.

You'll see a lot of them are news presenters or radio presenters.

And that's because it's one of the few areas where still BBC make all of their own programs and contract their presenters centrally.

There are very, very few entertainment names on this because Strictly is made through BBC Studios.

almost every big entertainment show they do michael mcintyre shows are all made through hungry bear so and we should say that if it's made through bbc studios which is the sort of commercial arm of the bbc or made via an indie then you're paid via them and you don't have to disclose it.

Yeah.

And also the Indies would go insane if it was disclosed because that's information, that's sort of fairly market-sensitive information.

Although the government always wishes the BBC to publish all its market sensitive information for whatever reason, all successive governments have wished them to do that.

Does that deliver extra value to the licensed fee payer or does it actually just mean that it makes talent poaching easier or whatever?

Yeah, once a year it gives us a fun list.

Yeah.

And that's about it, which everyone on it resents being being on because they're like, do you genuinely think that INIC Robinson gets paid more than Graham Norton?

Or even than Amal Rajan?

Well, Amal Rajan, I noticed, is on this list.

He's somewhere in the teens, I think, Amal Rajan.

315,000.

But of course, that doesn't include...

He's buzzing in right now.

Hyde, Wadham.

I would like to say I reckon he's on.

upwards of a million.

And I'll tell you why, because he has been tried to be poached.

And they've tried to find things, I think, to do with him.

So he'll get, you can't be on that much for doing the Today program or doing whatever.

But if they put you on University Challenge

and you make 35 or 40 shows a year and they put you on 12K a show, which doesn't sound that bad, but when you add up the thing, then you're going high.

I am going to, sorry, I'm going to mop up your T.

No way, absolutely no way in a billion years he's on 12 grand a show for University Challenge.

Well, some people are on much less.

So if you look at someone like Clive Murray, who i don't think has an agent he will be on a lot less why clive get an agent um ideally he'll be on a lot less for uh doing mastermind but sometimes we find these sort of things out because other people are trying to poach people and

sometimes they might inflate how much they get paid yes in order to sometimes i find them out by ringing the producers of shows and saying how much this person gets paid per episode and sometimes they won't tell me but but often they will i'm not saying that that's the definitive i'm but i'm saying it is ballpark and they have found ways of finessing it i'm saying it's nowhere near ballpark that would be my that would be my view so the interesting thing about this list is it comes out every year then immediately everyone goes oh but they're missing out the um you know the big money that the bbc is paying out which slightly hides the fact that the bbc does actually pay much much much much lower rates for presenters than any other broadcaster.

So if you're doing University Challenge on ITV, you may well be on 12 a show.

You might be on more than that.

You might be on 20 a show.

If you're doing it on the BBC, you're not even close to that.

I think number 25 on this list is somewhere around 280 000.

i do 110 episodes of house of games every year thank you for your service i would not be close to that list because it's bbc so you don't get it's it's and by the listen that's not me going woe is me goodness it's it's i love doing that but i wouldn't be anywhere close but others that would get more than i would have thought i mean graham norton would be on more than jonathan ross uh no i wouldn't have thought so i think so no well i think he's on seven to a show graeme norton i'm spilling tea here yeah okay

uh don't forget he owns a part of soap productions as well.

So, you know, it gets made up various different ways.

But the basic principle is on the don't make me at the end of the show think I'm go back to the BBC and ask for a pay rise because that is the exact opposite of what I want to do.

You know that I want you to do that at the end of the show.

You know, I always want you to politely ask for a pay rise.

Of course, I never will.

Because my view of the BBC and the BBC, it is the BBC's view now as well, which is this is funded by.

taxpayers.

So you do have to pay something because you can get a huge amount of money elsewhere.

And, you know, most people, especially if they're stand-ups, they're very aware that they can be out every night earning 40 grand a show because they can just go and play big venues or they can do a corporate so they can make that sort of money.

So there is a little bit of a

whole section on pricing comedians later.

But I've been talking to virtually every producer I know at all with anonymity.

And we have come up with what I think are the 10 best paid TV presenters on British Tele.

And not a single person on that BBC list, apart from Gary Lineke, would be in that top 10.

Not even close.

You know, I've negotiated for years and years as

an independent and i can get eight or ten times more for my presenter if i'm on itv or channel four than i can if i'm on the bbc and production companies accept that most agents have started to accept that they didn't five ten years ago they do now and so the bbc is cutting its cloth about as tightly as they can i think whereas the you know you only have to look at what people are going to get on Sky or you only have to look at what people were being paid on last one laughing on Amazon Prime.

And you

agree.

On the stream is that

I'm comparing within PSPs because I think that's fair.

And I think a lot of other PSPs, by the way, would still say, oh, there's still that hangover feeling about the BBC, but in many ways, they cannot bid on everything.

Yeah, I think most people on this list do, you know, as I say, they're radio presenters or they're sports presenters.

And they're doing 200, 250, 300 shows a year, which, you know, starts to add up.

That's why most of these people are on the list.

Whereas I could, if I was doing an eight-part entertainment series on ITV, which I'm not going to do, I would be paid more than I'd be paid for 110 episodes of House of Games.

And rightly so, because it's advertisers' money and therefore, you know, I'll ask for anything because it's, you know, personal are paying, not, you know, British taxpayers.

And the disparity between the two is fairly enormous.

When I go through my list of who I believe to be the 10 best-paid presenters on British TV, I'll explain why certain amounts go to certain people on certain channels for presentations.

I mean, it's quite interesting.

I know that there is a sort of counter view.

There is a counter view in the industry.

It's certainly interesting to compare something like celebrity traitors on the BBC to I'm a celebrity on ITV.

There are these two sort of although we haven't seen the celebrity iteration yet, but we know it's going to be massive.

Look at the caliber of the people they got.

I was incredible.

I spoke to somebody who's seen the first episode.

I spoke to someone who said to me, do you want to know who wins?

No, of course I don't.

Oh my God, have you lost your mind?

I know.

I was like, if you say anything, anything that, like one single thing,

and all the next things they said, I was thinking, they're hinting now in a way.

Or are they?

I don't know.

Now I'm just obsessed with you.

You cannot go anywhere near that.

No, I do not want to know.

Anyway, apparently it's amazing.

Okay, yeah, apparently.

But for that, they were able to pay everybody a blanket 40K fee.

Right?

Yeah, I am spilling all my tea today.

They've split a 40k fee.

It's very difficult to tell you.

Can I say to the Daily Express and Daily Mail and all that in this headline, this is Marina Hyde is revealing this.

Not Richard Osman is revealing.

Every time on this podcast we say anything, they go, Richard Osmond reveals.

I I think I'm not.

I'm going to reveal some really dark stuff and then just have it ascribed to your name.

But anyway, yeah, so you can give people 40K each to appear on trade.

First of all, it's a sort of prestige format, as we can see by the caliber of the people they got.

Well, it's like White Lotus when everyone got paid the same, and they got paid much less than you would normally do on a drama.

By the way, everyone is massively overpaid in.

the television entertainment business.

I just want to put that in the middle.

We're not saving babies.

But we are where we are.

No one's getting overpaid in the live entertainment business, which is where the rates come from.

Agreed.

agreed and we'll come to that in a minute because we'll have to do more on comedians yeah um but if something like i'm a celebrity you can't say everyone's getting paid 40k because it's like you want you're not going to get anyone and you're much more in the in booking a show like that you're obviously much more concerned of like do i have that kind of marmalade dropper booking so you've got to say oh you know what did what did colleen get i can't remember was it like 1.2 or 1.5 it was something like they all got 600.

i know

i was in the first step i can't remember what colleen got but it was something like between one and 1.5 But in that sense, you're sort of thinking, I've got to have that sensational booking or whatever.

And also, by the way, I can afford that sensational booking because advertising money.

Because it's part of it.

And it runs however many weeks it runs, three weeks or whatever.

So you're getting some stuff out of it.

Okay.

You're more able to do what's called that sort of favoured nations idea

weirdly.

So

favoured nations, if you ever go on a TV show, they'll say, here's the fee, and it's favoured nations, so no one gets more than you.

And so, you know, accept it or not.

That was always nonsense.

Yeah.

Because then, you know, someone suddenly, like we did Favoured Nations on a show for years and years on a panel show, and then Joan River said she'd do it.

And we think, okay, now we don't, but now we can't do Favoured Nations.

She is not going to take £750 to do this show.

Yeah.

There are certain ones.

Do you remember that episode of Have I Got News for You?

when Johnny Mercer said to Ian Hislot, he really like all those people who go on and you're like, oh, no, don't try and be this guy.

But obviously a politician going on and trying to say to Ian Hislot, oh, I know how much you get paid.

And I think he said, I heard you get paid 20K an episode anyway hislock doesn't argue with him originally i thought oh i heard he that's that must mean he does get 20k and someone said to me this week now he gets 40k that's why he didn't argue with him so one thing we can say after that is that talent salaries have got smaller and people have got more realistic because there was a sort of you know as you would describe it 90s noughties money and then yeah it has contracted we're really talking about entertainment talent here by the way yeah acting is insane i mean it's that's like crazily insane well it's interesting someone like david mitchell who is obviously obviously

on Would I Lie To You, but also was in that mega hit, Ludwig.

So that's interesting.

Does he make your list?

He is not on the list, even though, you know, but things like the

show he does on Dave, The Outsiders, I suspect will probably pay better per episode than what I lie.

Would I Lie to You?

So, yeah, he does not make my list.

I haven't included actors on this because that is that's really the Wild West.

Yeah.

I mean, that's absolutely bonkers.

It's so ridiculous, this list.

I mean, it's like light entertainment talent, the end.

Well, I mean, you know, sports or whatever on its own, rather than saying, well, what about all of this other stuff?

And yet, it's never interrogated in that way.

But I will say

it today.

I'm happy to go on record of saying there's no way that Amal Rajan is getting a 12 grand an episode for University Challenge.

And if he is, then that doesn't need investigating.

I suspect that he isn't.

Even in the heyday.

I don't want a parity clause with him.

I still want a parity clause with him.

Oh, my God.

But I don't.

That's the point.

I love it.

You know, I present on the BBC for a reason.

I don't want someone to have to, you know, pay out a license fee for that.

I don't want to.

I can go to ITV if I want to do that.

I do a podcast if I want advertisers' money.

You know, the BBC is for something different.

The BBC is to is to do shows for, you know, families to watch that's that's kind of smart and funny.

And all that's, that's, that's what I love doing anyway.

But yeah, if he's on 12 grand, then I resign.

But

I genuinely

Richard Osman resigns with immediate affair.

Please don't write it in the Daily Express.

Even in the heyday of Deal on No.

Rami, I'll tell you the other salaries I know.

You can have that for your newspaper.

In the heyday of Deal on No Deal, well, I'm going to talk about what

some of the newspapers have done lists of who they think are the best paid presenters.

And

it is in some ways dumber than the original list of the.

I'm so sorry for my industry.

The BBC.

Truly.

But yeah, even in the heyday of Deal on No Deal, Noel wasn't on 12 an episode.

And that was the biggest hit on television for years and years.

And that's Noel.

So, you know, this is, it's, it's...

He does everything out of the kindness of his heart, Richard.

But that would would be a lot of money for doing a show where you do four or five a day.

I'll talk about the newspapers lists because they did a thing where they said, oh, actually, this doesn't tell half the story.

Here's, here's what BBC stars actually get paid.

And then they sort of went through companies' house at various people and say, well, they get this.

Like Jules Holland said, Jules Holland gets paid 3.3 million.

And you go, no.

You've looked at Jules Holland's company.

He does like 250 massive gigs a year, every year.

He's not getting 3.3 million for doing later.

Yeah.

With Jules Hodden, even though his name's above the door.

Yeah.

And Stacey Solomon, it's like.

Yeah, she's got to deal with Primark.

And, you know, they were always on it.

Yeah.

This is it.

Well, we'll get on to beauty and stuff, though, the way that people actually make their money.

But that, you know, and one of the points is if you can make money outside of that, that sort of reflects the rate you can get inside of it.

But that list was even dumber than the BBC list.

I thought it was all you were on that.

I've heard you've written some books, so that's probably related to that.

I mean, listen, if you thought the BBC list was dumb, that list was,

I mean, spectacularly dumb.

If they think Stacey Solomon's getting £7.5 million to present Sort Your Life Out, listen, I would pay it.

But that is not what is happening.

So I spoke to a lot of...

Do you know what?

It won't shock you to learn every single producer I talked to loved this.

I'm actually, it's unusual for this podcast.

I'm going to go from one down to 10.

But because it actually works better for the format.

You know, so you must never ever be hidebound.

Like, listen, they always said, never do a show where the jackpot goes down.

Then we have a million pound drop.

You know, sometimes, sometimes you have to break the rule.

Number one, Anton Deck.

Buy a mile.

I mean, by an absolute mile.

Oh, you're talking about the highest potato on British TV?

Yeah.

Right.

Sorry.

Yes, I agree.

Yeah.

I thought you were talking about it on the BBC.

You know what?

Genuinely, nobody on the BBC.

I've got one name on this list who makes most of their money from the BBC.

But that is, it's...

insignificant in terms of what people are getting paid on television.

It's absolutely crazy.

So when you're saying you're talking about television, can we just do the parameters?

Television entertainment.

Television, they're not getting it from touring, Prime Market.

Exactly.

Blah, blah, blah, all the other bits and bots, right?

Simply what they are being paid to present television

on British TV.

Nothing else.

Not how they're monetizing different things, not how they've got brands, not how they form a rhythm and blues orchestra and play 300 gigs a year all across Europe, rather than just presenting later with Jules Holland.

So this is literally just from presenting TV.

Anton Deck at the top by a million miles.

You could split it in half and they would be number one and number two.

Because you've got, you know, you've got, I'm a celebrity, you've got Britain's got talent, you got limitless win.

There's always, and they bring audiences time and time and time again.

So Anton Deck.

Well, they do bring an audience.

That's what I think is interesting because it's so amazing how many people.

That's part of what's,

I don't want to say depressed talent salaries because they still get a paid lot.

But actually, there's so few people in British television with the greatest respect that bring an audience.

Anton Deck, McIntyre.

Yeah.

And there's not, you know, there's not that many others.

Formats and shows bring audiences and they're, and rightly so, and they're beloved and people fit so well into them and they're kind of masters of those formats.

But in terms of actually bringing the audience and it kind of doesn't matter what they're in, they're very few.

Yeah, it's funny how after I quit pointless, literally nothing changed in the ratings.

But it, but of course it didn't.

Of course they don't, you know, it's, it's, it's, you know, anyway.

I say that Richard's, you know, obviously instrumental in the format as well.

So there we go.

You did at some, you know, by one remove.

Well, I'm not, I'm not even involved in that anymore.

But listen, I love to watch it.

Number two, Bradley Walsh.

I was going to say, yeah.

Because Bradley has that unbelievable combination, and very few people do anymore, of having a daily show on ITV and a daily entertainment show on ITV and a daily entertainment show that regularly tops the ratings on ITV, an entertainment show that has spin-offs

and then does his documentaries with his son, comes over to the BBC to do blankety blank and gladiators, which he will be paid a lot less for, but he will still be paid nicely.

But I mean, he is doing 200 episodes of

the chase every year.

I don't know what he's on.

I suspect it's more than you think Amal Rajan is on and less than Anton Decker on, but he's doing 200 of them.

And again, he brings an audience in a way that other people don't.

People love Bradley Wash.

They love to watch him.

And you launch a show with Bradley, you've got more chance of it working than if you have to show it with someone else.

What you've just listed is a huge amount of work.

He works a lot.

Oh yeah, he works.

You know, he absolutely does it.

So do lots of people.

We understand that.

I go, you know, it's all relative.

But compared to lots of the other presenters who are not doing so much.

His year is

busy.

Number three, Alison Hammond.

I think because she has a combination of Bake Off, which is a huge franchise now, and the budget for which has gone crazy in recent years since it went to Channel 4.

And of course, she does this morning as well.

And she does for the love of dogs, all sorts of different things as well.

So I think that,

again, this is definitively not a real list.

This is just from all of us talking together, trying to work out who fits where.

And she came on at number three.

Alison, if you're number four, I apologize.

If you're number two, I apologize.

Whichever you'd rather be.

So we've got her at number three.

At number four, I've got Jimmy Carr.

Yeah.

Because Jimmy, he does a lot of formats for commercial television.

So he does, you know, I literally just told you on channel four, he does cats, does countdown still for

four.

And of course, now he does Last One Laughing, which is an enormous hit and is going to remain an enormous hit for a number of series.

So you're counting streamers in this.

I find it so hard to it's hard.

I think you have to because there's so few entertainment shows on streamers.

Yeah.

You simply have to.

And because you can't, if you are ever, for example, if you're, if someone wants to book you on a, on a panel show for Sky,

they pay you 10 times.

Yes, exactly.

And so you have, which is why you will see big names doing those things.

So I think it's crazy not to, and there's another couple of names down here who definitely benefit from that.

So I'm going to say Jimmy Carr,

Lee Mac.

Yeah.

Lee Mac simply because, and again, not from what I lied to you, but just because 1% Club has been such an enormous juggernaut of a hit.

And so you can sort of name his price because those are the sort of hits that advertisers come to channels for.

And that, you know, that's been absolutely.

He doesn't have to name his price, I should also say, because he's represented by someone we could just do a little quick sidebar.

And he's represented by Avalon, who perhaps are

listeners.

Avalon, who are like a sort of talent management and production company, they are, I mean, maybe I think it'd be hard to argue with the idea that they're Britain's most successful indie almost because of what they do.

But they have, they are famously, what's the euphemism?

Drive a hard bargain?

They drive a hard bargain.

I think that's there's so many euphemisms.

I can only speak in euphemisms about as everyone, actually people in the industry, when they're not doing a podcast, do not speak in euphemisms about them, but they've always, always

driven a hard bargain.

Yeah, I think also if they, if were they to express a preference and wouldn't say that they would, I think their preference, they might express the preference that they'd rather keep their talent on Avalon shows than put them on other people's shows.

So you can, which is a sort of a...

a double bubble.

They might argue with that.

Yeah, they wouldn't argue with that.

But people don't leave.

And also, if they do leave, then often they own the formats that they're in.

And so this is why you can't see them on your television anymore.

Yes, because it's why you can't see TV Burp anymore.

Well number six, I'm going to go joint Claudia and Michael McIntyre.

Only because they've both got huge shows on the BBC and shows that uh that that sort of run and run and run and upsets.

And they've both got two huge shows that are almost sort of on season, off season.

And

you know, Traitors now because it's celebrity and it's regular and you've got Strictly which runs runs and runs and runs.

I think that probably puts Claudia on the list and also because she does ITV shows as well.

She does the piano.

She does that one question as well, which she'll be

remunerated for, I suspect.

And Michael McIntyre, yes, again, because he does those huge shows as the wheel and the big show.

And also because that is somebody who literally, he could be getting 75 grand a night just doing a gig.

Yeah.

You sort of...

That's the thing that people who commission and whatever say that comedians are really, really hard to price because they're already, in general, quite rich.

Very rich, really.

and you've got a show that you want to spend a million quid an hour on and then you think well i mean you know greg davis might want 150k to do it yeah i mean you're not necessarily going to give it to them yeah but they can make such a lot of money touring and they do make such a lot of money touring but you do need people to be on the front of your shows and they don't they can't always be a particular type of you know you want comedians to be on lots of them because for obvious reasons I always used to say years ago, whenever you book a comedian, they should do it for free because you're selling their tickets for them.

And by the way, I was right, but it didn't catch on with agents or with comedians.

But if you had said, okay, no comedians ever getting paid again to come on these shows,

you'd still get a steady stream of people coming on, you know, because they know what they're doing.

You know, so much telly now is a lost leader.

And, you know, if you take something like Mr.

Beast going to Amazon Prime, now he did not make a penny out of that show.

I mean, quite the opposite.

It probably cost him somewhere around 60 million just to make that show.

At seven, I'm going to say Romesh Ranganathan.

Yeah.

Because Romesh, well, first of all, he does a radio show, but you know, he'll do things like weakest link, but mainly because he does lots with Sky and he'll do, you know, League of Their Own and he'll do Robin Romish and all of those things.

So he has lots of different income streams, but the most important ones will be the Sky income streams.

He'll be on an awful lot of money for that.

He might be further up that list, but I've

demurred.

And then

Clarkson

is definitely there because of who wants to be a millionaire and because of Clarkson's farm.

And again, he's doing that Mr.

Beast thing of,

you know,

not that fast what you pay me for Clarkson's farm because this is a commercial enterprise and there's lots of different ways for me to monetize this and to get this in front of people's.

But for Clarkson's Farm, the thing about those shows is that we know about what happens on Prime shows is that people get paid just beyond money because

it's a rounding era for the Everything Corporation.

They want you to buy stuff and they have a market map and each of those shows really carefully addresses.

And Mr.

Beast was one of them.

What they paid him was extraordinary.

He happened to have spent it all because of

the extraordinary nature of the show.

But

Clarkson's farm is somewhat cheaper to make.

Yes, yeah.

I wouldn't say it's not super cheap, but it is somewhat cheaper.

He's no beast games.

He is.

It is, although it has lots of beasts.

Yeah.

So he will be on an absolute 42.

By the way, some of these can be moving up and down this top 10.

So if anyone's listening, I would love people on this list to just message us and say, I should have been lower or I should have been higher.

i'm interested in the personality all you have to do is do it on the record if you do it on the record it's absolutely just ring in and we'll read you out loud exactly what you said so jeremy if you think you're higher than eight do please let us know and then the bottom of the list is slightly bottom of the list i mean these are the 10 highest paid uh people but lots of different names came through on the bottom of the list i'll go through some of them joel dommit Yeah, who I suspect might be there because he does Master Singer.

Oh, yeah.

And he does National Television Awards.

And he has,

you know, an aesthetic and he has a youthfulness and he does a uh itb game show now as well that it feels like send for joel yeah he's an investment investment when they're and also just such a deeply lovely man yeah he used to do warm-up for pointless did he actually in the early days yeah oh that's fun so in the like the first three series of pointless there's Joel being paid 250 quid a show me being paid nothing because I was the creative director so I always said don't pay me uh and uh and and Zander on 90,000 a show no

he definitely noticed I haven't put Zandra on the CC even though he does 200 200 shows a year that's because it's the bbc so maybe joel dommit maybe someone like susanna reed or lorraine just because they're doing 200 250 shows a year actually lorraine does fewer these days

um and because they have shows that bring in a regular audience and that you know and they they they have um yeah no i don't think they'd quite make it um just on the basis of

i don't think they would i mean listen they might not be making as much as lineker but they're certainly making more than zoeball who was second on the list at uh oh yeah i mean as we've said the original list is just a nonsense.

Yeah.

Jeremy Vine, I'm going to say now, because he's already on the BBC list at something like...

He's already on the BBC list at 310,000 and on Channel 5, which is literally the Jeremy Vine channel.

He does the Jeremy Vine show.

He did Eggheads.

He now does Jeremy Vine's House of Games,

which is their new series.

And so they're paying him.

They're not paying him what ITV would pay him or what Channel 4 would pay him even, but they are paying him.

And you add in the BBC thing as well.

And

I suspect he'd be right up there.

Dermot, of course,

because of this morning and because he's done a few streaming shows as well.

So

he won't be skipping a meal anytime soon.

So that would be roughly our top 10.

I'm sort of at the bottom of the list.

I'm spreading it out a bit because none of us could agree.

But I think

it sort of shows you what the market is.

And you can argue whether that market's good or bad.

But, you know, a lot of these people have another way of making money and, you know, provably bringing an audience.

But it also, I hope, shows you how dwarfed those BBC salaries are.

I know they sound absurd and ridiculous.

Most of the people at the top of that is because they're doing 300 shows and they're doing lots of different things.

And, you know, it kind of all adds up.

But it's...

It's a lucrative business entertainment, you know, like sport is a lucrative business and music is a lucrative business.

But I just having looked at that BBC list, and it's hard because how do you compete compete and

get those people to come on the BBC?

So you do have to pay, but it is, you do pay an awful lot less.

But it's still, you know, what we should say, and what they do say when they are trying to get people to compete is you don't get exposure like that almost anywhere else.

More people are going to watch you here than anywhere else.

More people will watch you, as you say.

They'll send you tickets.

They'll do whatever it is.

You'll get more corporates, whatever it may be.

All the sort of,

you know, subsidiary stuff.

But that's an argument that's very slowly disappearing, you know, because, well, because you just don't get a huge amount of exposure sometimes on a, even on a BBC show.

I mean, you know, there's, it's, it's just, it used to be that, you know, on a mediocre show, five million people would watch you.

Sure.

I mean, I think it's good to have it because all of these people are now so diversified.

And any, that's one thing that we do know.

You know, in the old days, used to be a light entertainment presenter, and that's it.

And now we see people with clotheslines and, you know, lifestyle portals and all sorts of other things.

And they're brand ambassadors and they're everything else.

So it's it within that, it's good to have a PSB show

within that because it almost unless you have that, you can't describe something that pays them 400,000 pounds.

I can't describe it as a lost leader, but to some extent, you need that in order to have all the other bits.

Yeah.

Oh, I forgot to say also, we were arguing about for number 10, possibly Greg Davies, only because he does Buzzcocks for a big, you know, streamer and he does Taskmaster.

And that's a mammoth, mammoth hit.

And again, a mammoth hit that was bought in from another channel.

And so is

funded at quite a premium.

Yeah.

Like Bake Off.

And so maybe with those two things together, he's up there.

But I don't think.

Even though Bake Off, as they've showed, by simply taking it to another format and getting rid of half the presenters, it's the format that people are watching and it's not the presenters.

So it's, you know, despite the fact we know that, and it's been actually demonstrably proved.

Because if you look at some of the most loved British TV presenters out there, look at Stacey Solomon, look at Ryden, look at Alison Hammond.

They all started on reality TV shows.

They were not comedians.

They were not local journalists who sort of worked their way up.

They were just people who appeared on screen and people immediately liked them.

People immediately went, I want this person to be in my living room.

And there are loads of people out there who don't want to be on.

Big Brother or Pop Idol or Britain Scott Talent who would have that same charm if only there are a way to find them.

The truth is, you would put them on very, very cheaply for the first series.

The second that series was a hit.

They would be on exactly the same money as all of these people because that's the market.

But I'm a great believer that there are generations of people out there who could present television shows.

Oh, yeah.

There's people at the top, Michael McIntyre, Anton Deck, Claudia, people.

You just think, no, okay, absolutely get it.

But there is a level at which you think, yeah, I think we could probably replace you with somebody cheaper.

My radical proposal for these things would be, because the one thing in Intelli is always, you have a hit and yet the money doesn't go up.

So you have this massive hit and, you know certainly on the on the BBC usually the money goes down because it has to.

The world of podcasts is very, very interesting.

So in the world of podcasts, this was my dream always, always, always.

And it's what happens in some podcasts, no, and actually funny enough, the BBC is an exception to this.

But in the world of podcasts, most of the hit podcasts I know, people do not get paid.

You do not get an upfront fee.

What you get is, if it's successful, you get more money because you get a revenue share of the advertising, which to me as a producer was the business i was always in which is so bbc is different that's

that's looking after british creativity and all that stuff but on itv and channel four i was all i'm doing is giving you something that you can sell to an advertiser you are then selling that to an advertiser 15 different people are taking chunks of that money yeah until there's someone who isn't taking any of that money me you know so as as a producer you get your 10 fee and then it doesn't matter how well you did with it you're not going to get more if one week you get three million the next week you get you you get four million, you don't suddenly get a 33% uplift in your money.

And I would love TV to be made like that, which is no one gets paid apart from the crew, but production, all that, we don't get paid until the numbers come in.

And if we get paid more, if the numbers are bigger and bigger, then you get paid more and more.

Imagine that.

Imagine that.

That would never happen.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, you've got to bite yourself at some point.

Yeah.

Listen, it happens in an informal way because Anton Deck didn't start on the money they're on.

They just had a series of hits and so they did it.

But it's very interesting, the podcasting of people just doing it for nothing.

And then, you know, the more successful it is, the more money you make.

Like music.

The more records you sell, the more money you make.

And TV is one of the few industries where that doesn't cross.

That's that extra layer of friction or

skimming off or whatever you want to call it.

Yeah, I would call it skimming off.

Also worth noting that certain that every single channel spends all year focus grouping every single presenter they've ever had.

Yeah, so when they but people go, you've got Greg Wallace and people go, but he wasn't even a good presenter, people didn't even like him.

But but I mean, listen, you don't want to hear it, but they did, right?

They loved him.

I saw so many people this week saying, why don't they just cancel this tired show?

Oh, no, I'm so sorry.

It's because people really like Master Share.

Yeah, all these other things cancel the sewing ones and this one.

So like, no, no, no.

They're all really popular because people like them.

Yeah.

I guess it's listen.

If you're the main character in your own story, then if you don't like something, then everyone hates it.

But

the numbers that are.

But we do have, we do have some ratings, which allows us to see that other people do like these things.

And those, you know, if you go, oh, God, I don't want to watch Alison Hammond.

I tell you who wants to watch Alison Hammond.

Two groups of people, me and most of the British public.

And they know that week after week after week because they're constantly asking.

And people are constantly saying, Yep.

Yeah.

I like her.

We love her.

Exactly.

And so, you know,

if it's ever a mystery to you why someone's on TV, it's probably because

other people

disagree with you.

I mean, listen, there is a really,

You've lifted the curtain there.

Right.

I think we must,

after that,

curtail this because we could spill this tea forever.

But shall we go to a break?

Yes.

Yes.

Let's

monetize that.

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Welcome back, everyone.

Welcome back.

Now, plenty of headlines there.

This should be a headline.

What is growing four times faster than the UK economy and is now worth £30.4 billion to it every single year?

Is it Amarajan's wage back?

It is the beauty industry and the value of beauty, which is an annual report compiled by Oxford Economics and it's commissioned by the British Beauty Council.

It's fascinating.

I mean, this is a sector that...

unlike the creative industries, you will, will, although it is linked and that's how we're going to get onto it, but you'll never see a cabinet minister out there talking about it.

It employs more people than are in publishing and broadcasting and put together.

Its direct contribution to GDP is more than the whole sports and recreation sector.

So more than going to football, museum, parks, concerts, all of that.

And it makes up...

over one percent of the UK's economic output.

It's part services, it's part goods.

We know all of this.

It's like a little beauty spot for British services.

Very, very good.

Thank you.

Brexit slightly slowed the recovery.

But it's interesting.

It's something that particularly took off

or was accelerated and catalyzed during the pandemic.

And a big part of that is

because people saw themselves on screen.

So so many people saw themselves on screen.

I remember that Caroline Hirons, who's someone who is a very sort of significant player in this sort of thing, saying people just couldn't stand it.

They They were looking at their faces, thinking, and obviously, no one really understood the technology.

So it took them like the whole first lockdown to work out.

They didn't have to look at themselves while they were having a meeting with someone.

No, so do I.

I mean, completely.

And you're just thinking, gosh, if I'm really professional, I will look at the little lights, but it's so difficult to do.

Yeah.

And people are just sort of mesmerized by their own flaws or whatever it is.

And it really took off.

And so when we're talking about beauty, I should say we're talking about skincare, makeup, hair care, fragrance, sort of tools and devices.

And there's obviously a service element to it as well.

But it's become huge via screens and sort of beauty attainment, as it were, is absolutely massive.

Like TikTok is now the fourth biggest beauty retailer in the whole UK.

Isn't it a retailer?

Yeah.

In terms of shop window sort of stuff.

People are buying shops.

Well, first of all, if you go into a boot, you will now see, which we've seen for a while in bookshops, you know, BookTok or whatever, you'll now see as seen on TikTok in chemists.

And they have to really be sort of nimble with it because all these trends are happening all the time.

I like, by the way, as seen on TikTok, because you can literally download anything to TikTok.

You know, you could have your local garage as seen on TikTok because they just uploaded a video.

But yes, it's it.

But it's become such a sort of thing that people are drawn.

And so they've made whole breakout bricks and mortar areas of their shops.

And it's interesting because, I mean, I suppose in the old days, you know,

that whole idea of

shopping as entertainment, I used to be mesmerized by shopping channels.

I remember when they first came to the UK, I'd be like, this is so cool.

You know, I love that novel, Celevision, that Augustine Burroughs novel about kind of those places.

And I was absolutely gripped by the relationships as I imagined them between the hosts, where they hate each other, where they liked each other.

I love to see washed up celebrities doing infomercials.

Okay, all of that has gone on its head now.

Nobody washed up does infomercials.

I mean, you look at brands like Selena Gomez's brand, Rare Beauty, which is on sale in the biggest retailer in the world really for this sort of thing is Sephora.

Haley Bieber, who's got her brand Rode.

Selena

brand is valued at 2 billion.

Haley Bieber's is just valued at 1 billion.

She basically started what used to be called a direct-to-consumer marketing thing.

She had about eight products.

It's now worth a billion.

It's going into

Sephora and it's really, it's a little bit like that Gorbidel quote, you know, it's not enough for

Haley to succeed.

Selena must fail.

So they're already being sort of pitted against each other in terms of what it will do to your shelf real estate in these places.

I just think that I just think, fair play to you for both being billionaires.

I think it's unbelievable.

But it's unbelievable.

You couldn't have done this before.

And people couldn't do this.

They have these celebrities, vast screens of all different types of art, different types of social media, and with very, very few products have leveraged their brands into these huge businesses that you could, that are sort of unrivaled by people who are in those businesses to start with.

And I think it's very interesting.

Shoppable entertainment is.

you know,

as I say, what was once a sort of niche thing that I, as a young person who couldn't, wasn't going out anywhere might watch or you know we imagined bored Floridian housewives were sitting there buying you know diamond eat rings or whatever they were buying off QVC shopboard entertainment is everything well I remember you know even 15 years ago you know you'd sit in production meetings and you know people would say oh we could get some product placement on this and everyone go oh I don't know I don't know about that and now you think it's not like oh I've got a you know can of Diet Coke here let's get some money it's literally you can make programs about your own things yeah you know and people consume it they watch your ever as entertainment then go out and buy it get ready with me video you know they would rather watch that than whatever is on ITV at that time or BBC or whatever it is they every time I see one I really really really see the appeal so do I yeah

they look amazing yeah yeah and you know when when I watch it I get that there's a there's a commercial thing and you know people are selling I'm slightly mesmerized when I see it I love the well you get that it's an authentic presenter and that it's essentially a format right yes and and that they're doing something they're good at and they care about yeah is what I sense whenever I see those things yes I mean you can literally see the views happening and then you can see the click-through and it's it's really interesting the the uk this is another thing that's come out recently the uk is tick tock's most advanced e-commerce market outside of asia number

one so we're you know we're leading the way on this stuff rich but whether we're leading the way to a good place i don't know but it's really interesting how brands themselves have had to adapt to this being entertainment.

As we know in entertainment, you know, you want a new episode and you want something different.

So brands that used to just be like, okay, well, we'll bring up three lipsticks this year and we'll leave it at that.

Now you constantly need drops and all of the, and they've had to completely adapt.

Other brands that didn't start like this, didn't start as kind of a person on TikTok, just kind of and suddenly building up a billion-dollar business.

They've had to adapt to this kind of thing and they've had to become much more nimble.

But it's so interesting that it's all a form.

of shoppable entertainment.

And also that the money goes from, you know, if you are a skincare brand or even if you're boots, the money that you would spend on filmed adverts that you then placed on television programs, which would have been through the roof huge.

You now go, we're going to take all that money.

It's like we were talking about podcasts in the previous thing.

We're going to take that money.

We're going to give it directly to someone who speaks to our audience and get them to make something that doesn't cost very much.

Put it in a get ready with me video.

And, you know, the person making it is getting more money.

The brands have to spend less money.

And the result is 10 times bigger than it would have been.

And it's so much less of a gamble than like everyone hates your Christmas advert or whatever it is.

All of those things are starting to feel sort of.

One of my favorite side things in entertainment these days is because everyone, you know, there's not a marketing department in the country doesn't try and do these things.

I love seeing failed versions of these.

I love it when people try and get something trending or they try and get a hashtag going or they try and get some sort of signature move going and it doesn't work.

And you see, you can just sort of see the desperation.

An old, like almost like a legacy brand tries to create one of those organic online moments.

I see.

Yeah.

Okay.

There was even like a few years ago, they even, there was that sort of very brief interregnum where big brands were kind of going, oh, let's do an advert, but like it's like an influencer and they're doing this thing.

And we'll do it, like, we'll shoot it like it's an influencer doing like a kind of online video.

And that would be great.

You go, why don't you just get an influencer to do the online video?

Because, you know, people already like them.

They always had to feel, they had to put sort of inverted commas around it.

And in fact,

it's all been blown away.

But as we've talked about before, people are

and social media to some extent, as people have always said is you know you're you're just participating in in something in which the product is you and you're giving companies your data but that line between advertorial and entertainment which used to be as you say either sort of morally frowned upon or just regarded as really naff like QVC and infomercials for sort of naff but that has completely gone it's definitely not something you do when you're washed up anymore it's something that you know hot and talented young 28 year old women do and then become billionaires well also you know know, I've, you never ever meet any presenter of any stripe at all who wasn't kind of going, what can I do?

What can I do that, you know, because they sort of see now that rather than someone just paying you to present a TV show out of money that comes from advertisers, for example, me, I mean, there is not a brand in the world that would increase its share if I advertised it right.

I don't believe that.

But there isn't.

I mean, what about your voice?

And if it was something, it would not be something that has a high market capitalization.

I get that.

It would be snooker balls or something.

That's not for me.

But, you know, all sorts of presenters, they're all kind of, what can I do?

What is it that I can do?

Where can I, how can I monetize this?

And as you say, 10, 15 years ago, everyone would have turned their noses up at it.

Everyone would go, no, I'm not going to do this.

I'm not going to, you know, hawk that.

And now they're going to go, what kind of hawk?

What have you got?

I remember when we first started doing this podcast before, and you and I were talking about it.

And you said, I don't care about things like the adverts because, as I always say to anyone, unless you work on the BBC.

you've been in an advertiser-funded medium forever.

So what is the difference?

You're just holding your hanky to your nose like some pretentious thing.

If you think that if you're on a channel for an ITV show, the thing that happens in the commercial breaks is nothing to do with you.

People say sometimes, I've never advertised that.

You go, listen, here's the news.

You've been advertising it for many, many, many years.

Exactly.

You have.

You can't have it both ways.

You know, either it's okay or it's not okay.

But that's why all those people make so much money, all those middlemen, because they go between you and the advertiser.

So, you know, you never have to meet them.

They're still paying you.

We're talking about skimming off again, aren't we?

We are.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But

the great skimmers off have

are in retreat now.

Yeah, they faded away and now they've all become Instagram influencer managers,

which is, I think, the biggest growing industry in the UK.

Is that the growth sector?

Yeah, you look at the latest census.

I think there are now more Instagram influencer managers than there are miners.

And people who believe in the Jedi.

Yeah.

Where does it go next, do you think, this sort of thing?

Is it?

Because it feels like it feels so enormous and so ubiquitous.

And as you say, you know, you've got people making billions out of this.

There comes a point, surely, where that market becomes saturated.

I mean, obviously, there's huge money to be made in very natural makeup and all of those things.

Don't bet against making women feel crap about themselves.

I mean, that's the thing, isn't it?

I mean, the nice thing is now they're trying to do it to men as well because they're thinking,

it's like Philip Morris, tobacco.

They're going, hold on.

We forgot China.

Why don't we...

Oh, my gosh.

Why haven't we killed millions of people there?

And the whole beauty industry is thinking, hold on a minute.

Men are feeling pretty good about themselves.

This report was very interesting because they were saying that more young men in the sort of, I think it was 18 to 23, had had Botox than women in that, in that, yeah, this looks maxing, this whole big online trend is absolutely huge.

I didn't know what the fillers were, particularly, but no, whenever Ingwid sees a young person with fillers, she's like, that's, and now I, now I recognise them.

Now I, now I see a few of them.

You've become filler literate.

I've become filler literate.

And it's all like youngsters.

They look the same as the 40-year-old women.

It's just a sort of homogenized face that is incredibly linked and defined by the platforms.

you know the idea that someone can talk about instagram face the aesthetic is i don't want to say decreed by mark zuckerberg but it's effectively handed down

you know via his via his medium and we are literally becoming our own uncanny valley yes people who look all almost looks like a human being but they they don't in real life look like human beings at all actually where they look like human beings and where they look of a piece with what they're looking at is on the platforms.

So on screen, people actually used to say this about celebrities.

celebrities oh it was quite shocking when i saw her you know i happened to see so-and-so on a wherever it was and i was shocked by what she looked like first of all she was tiny much you know they're always much thinner than you possibly think uh this is i'm talking about this is this is going back 20 30 years people would say that they look very odd off camera but everyone now is on camera all the time and so everyone has a sort of camera face yeah hello to our youtube viewers by the way yeah this is all we're both all natural

yeah part of my highlight which are delightful by the way thank you they were done on tuesday who is that by the way who who does this hip my hair yeah someone called josh josh wood who is wonderful josh wood yeah he's wonderful ching ching ching ching ching ching ching he's a listener to this podcast by the way too he is very very good to me let me just put it that way he's a wonderful person pauline does my hair thank you pauline yeah she was my pointless makeup artist if you know what i mean uh and uh and uh yeah now she that she's she's my josh wood so that's beauty yeah that's beauty we've done beauty okay all the way from haley bieber to josh wood Yeah.

We are now going to conclude this episode of the podcast by me saying to you, have you got any recommendations?

I do.

I have a very strong recommendation this week.

I think we have a new proper, proper, massive hit on our hands, which is Bookish, The Mark Gators.

Oh, yes, it's so good.

Detective drama, which is on you and the alibi.

You can see it on Nell TV as well.

It's so great.

Mark.

He's incredible.

I literally, I mean, he is a national treasure beyond all doubt.

He plays Book, who is a bookseller.

Please stay with us.

But it's sort of set just after the war in London, and he's a sort of a detective, sort of a bookseller,

surrounded by a brilliantly cast and brilliantly acted sort of um gang as well.

I was watching it, fingers crossed, thinking, Yeah, if this is if this is as good as the people involved, then this is going to be amazing.

And it really, really, really is.

Honestly, I thought I thought it was terrific.

You know, when you watch something, you just think, oh, this is going to be on for years.

This is my recommendation to it.

I absolutely love it.

I absolutely love it.

I love him.

I think pure joy from start to finish.

Yeah, and just every actor in it absolutely doing a terrific job.

But we've watched the first two and I will literally be going home.

You're now in that rationing stage where it's that good that you want, it's one of those shows that you like to ration.

Yeah, it's exactly that.

On that note, we will be back on Thursday with our question and answers episode.

Yep.

We have another bonus episode concerning British sitcoms.

Don't forget to want to count down the greatest British sitcoms of all time.

Please, members, vote.

And if you want to join the club, it's at therestersenttertainment.com and you get ad-free listening and various other things besides.

That felt like a long podcast.

That was a long podcast.

I mean, to be fair, it's the first time we've ever done a tight half-hour on a Mohl Rajan, you know.

And so, I guess if you're doing that, it tends to spread out, right?

I think it does.

Right.

We'll be back for a properly timed questions and answers edition on Thursday.

See you then.

Bye-bye.

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