⁠The Truth Behind ITV’s Daytime Cull

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Hello, and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Entertainment with me, Marina Hyde.

And me, Richard Osman.

Hello, everyone.

Hello, Marina.

We're in different countries again.

You remain in Italy in a place of sophistication and culinary charm.

CCC va bene, vabene.

I'm in, I'm in Bologna now.

And I remain in the basement at Spotify.

Listen, it's um, it's sort of a dream factory.

Thank you for having delicious food.

Yeah, lovely food.

And we did it, we did a big event last night in a huge library in Bologna, which is great fun.

The Italians have gone nuts for We Solve Murders, which is really, really lovely.

That's the book,

not the concept.

Oh, that's fantastic.

The look of the title in Italian is so cool.

There's something about that cover.

The Italian cover is very, very cool.

Also, I have a present for you, which I'm going to give to you after the Advert break, but I think you're going to like.

Oh, my God.

But I can't wait.

I have to wait, don't I?

Yeah, you do, I'm afraid.

And not only do I have a present for you, Marina, I have a present for Thursday Murder Club fans, which is on Thursday,

the very, very first trailer for the Thursday Murder Club film is being released.

If you want to see it a bit early, you can follow my newsletter.

That's if you go to Instagram or Twitter, it's in the bio.

You sign up, you'll see it an hour before everybody else.

But yeah, the first trailer, the teaser trailer, is out on Thursday.

Netflix releasing the first trailer.

That's exciting.

I love a trailer.

So you get to see all of those amazing actors playing those roles in that trailer.

So it's on Thursday.

If you sign up to the newsletter, if you look at any of your

newsletter.

Well, you're going to see it an hour early then.

Also, can you actually just email it to me so I can see it before even then?

But okay, we'll talk about it after.

Oh, yeah, and get sued by Netflix.

Great idea.

Like Christmas morning, looking out the window until your grandparents arrive.

You're going to have to wait.

What are we talking about today?

Okay, we're talking about what's happening at ITV.

There have been cuts in sort of daytime morning and we're going to talk a little bit about what's behind that and what it means.

And channel four as well.

We're talking about in that.

We're also going to talk about now either you've heard of this lady in which case I think you're going to be interested or you haven't in which case prepare to be informed.

We're going to talk about Ms.

Rachel, the huge YouTube star who's now a huge Netflix star.

And we're going to be talking a bit about YouTube and Netflix within that.

And we're also going to be talking about Britain's unlikeliest ever music success story.

I would say there's a British band who've just had a UK and US number one album, which is incredibly rare.

And I would say they're an unusual proposition.

So lots of interesting things to talk about.

But shall we begin?

All you're thinking about is your present.

I am thinking about

your present, but let's begin with ITV.

So ITV.

Daytime, essentially they have a block in the morning ITV, which is Good Morning Britain, Lorraine, This Morning, and Loose Women, which has been going for a very, very long time.

Takes them from 6 a.m.

to 1 p.m.

made by production teams which cross over an awful lot made in the same studios so it's a real block of programming that has uh existed for a very very long time but is about to be cold there's going to be 220 redundancies which is a a huge amount and it is another symbol of what's happening to our television and the terrestrial broadcasters having to cut their cloth according to the advertising revenues they're getting.

So it's a real watershed moment, I think, for British television production.

It's a watershed moment, but it's been coming for a long time, really, in the sense of that that block of television in the day which you described, the price of producing this stuff goes up.

The viewership basically goes down.

In some ways, you know, it's a commercial television thing and it's it's relatively easy to understand.

And the advertising money, it's interesting, the advertising money is sort of flat to slightly low from talking inside, but it you get eaten by inflation every year.

Yeah.

But this is the same in all genres to some extent, which is, you know, just to pick another one, drama used to cost £600,000 for an hour of drama on, say, ITV, and it now costs a million.

But people watch dramas.

They do that more as they do entertainment, reality, sports.

So put very simply, you want to do more of those and you're going to have to take the money from elsewhere.

Speaking within ITV...

to some extent, they felt that the other thing was, whilst in some ways it's simple, that sort of commercial television proposition, equally, ad sales are really weirdly complicated and the way advertising is sold on television is complicated.

But they've discovered that if ratings go down from what they are now, even 30%,

you don't necessarily lose ad sales money because...

you've got the same pool of people watching these things all the time.

And it's a different kind of advertising proposition.

Sorry to be talking about advertising, but advertising funder models, this is how it works.

A different kind of audience is watching at that time in the morning and you might advertise bread or loo paper or whatever it is but you do want more money for the programs in which you can sell cars and makeup and different those sort of things by that sort of virtue that morning schedule has become very very expensive and they basically want to do it for about half well that's the interesting thing because funnily enough i think the ratings thing is a red herring because actually these shows rate very well is the truth and GMB is is a success story in rating terms.

I mean, it gets about 700,000, which doesn't sound like a lot, but it's for GMB, you know, it's it's it's on the up.

And throughout the whole day, you know, throughout that whole morning, Lorraine, this morning, loose women, they're all getting around that 600,000, 700,000 mark, which is, as you say, when you know exactly who's watching this show, because it's been on for a very, very long time, it's actually very useful to advertisers.

However, ITV as a whole have a lot less money, and so what they're trying to do, I think, is protect those ratings.

So, we're at the stage now where we're cutting off healthy limbs in British television, which is a terrifying place to be.

Now, to sum up exactly what they're doing, Lorraine and Loose Women, which are around essentially 52 weeks a year, are now coming down to 30 weeks a year, and they're extending GMB as well to cover that.

And of course, there's huge cost savings there because GMB is one team.

And if they're suddenly doing an hour more television, that's saving you money.

It's one of the rare kind of plus points for British television daytime.

You know, it does have a stable and very loyal audience.

You know, it is an audience that advertisers can rely on, and yet they are having to share 220 jobs out of 440.

It's half the workforce going, you know, in every single area on every single one of these shows.

And it feels like a real harbinger to me because, as I say, these are not fading television programs.

These are not television programs that have lost their lustre.

These are television programs that the people working on care for, that the audiences care for.

And suddenly, half the people are losing their jobs.

But at the same time, I'm not quite sure what else ITV can do.

No, I'm afraid I don't think there is anything else they can do.

I would caution against sort of calling it cutting off healthy limbs simply because I would say that sometimes it enables them to exist for much longer.

Oh, yes.

In a funny kind of way, it's a bit like print, you know, which we've talked about before.

It's going to carry on much longer than people think.

But if you look at what happened with something like, I was just thinking recently, okay, something that happened with something like Newsnight, again, it's got very low audience.

They completely savaged the budget, you know, so they couldn't do expensive films.

It became shorter, but it looks a lot perkier, and the ratings are up 30% across the seven days.

The idea that sort of breakfast is dead, as a

someone could still do something very splashy with the mornings, as in a presenter.

We could still get someone who could come on to, I don't know, GMB or something and really do something that goes viral almost, you know, to some extent like Piers Morgan did, but

there are other people who could still do that.

I mean, two words, Richard Madeley.

Well every time he opens his mouth on that show,

it goes everywhere.

Madeley's one thought.

I have to say, you know, there's someone who is very, very brilliant.

And if he were not, I mean, I suppose this is a behind the scenes podcast, so I can tell you what people say on TV about Nick Ferrari, which is I think he's got to look for radio.

But I tell you what, Nick Ferrari, well, whatever your thoughts on him, he's very, very brilliant at that job.

And if he was doing GMB, then you can be sure that it would be a sort of more hard line more likely to go viral thing every day and again we're talking repeatedly aren't we about viral clips which tells you a lot i think he probably gets more money for for for less work on his on our radio show sure but there's something there's something about tv that's people still want to be on it isn't there and i'm not saying it is him by the way because it could be someone completely different and it could be someone you know he wouldn't mind me saying much younger but somebody could still grab it and and do something with that slot for definite i think are you absolutely certain he wouldn't mind you saying that it feels to me like i'd mind it if it said he may be a lot younger than me as well so this is i you know whatever we'll have to be realistic i'd feel like if if someone said to me you're you're too old to play football for england that's fair enough if someone said to me you're too old to present gmb i might be like

am i it's a possibility by the way i think he would be brilliant at it i think he would be brilliant at it so i'm just saying it could be someone like him it could be someone different somebody could still grab that slot yeah and The thing is, you know, Breakfast TV still is big.

You know, BBC is still getting over a million at breakfast.

And it's a lot and very, very little on British TV these days gets a million, even in the evenings.

Shall I tell you the shows that the daytime shows that get a million?

It's a vanishingly small number.

So, on BBC, BBC Breakfast gets over a million.

We then dip under a million for the homes under the hammers of this world, which still do good numbers.

You then rise to over a million again for bargain hunt.

You then, the news gets one million, and then you dip down again until pointless starts.

And then you're back over a million.

BBC Two and Channel 4, nothing.

Nothing's getting a million at all.

BBC2 essentially, it's all repeats in daytime, so all of their daytime money goes to BBC1, which I think is right.

House of Games is when it tips over a million for BBC2.

Channel 4, again,

it's difficult with Channel 4, so quite like their daytime offering.

Countdown is still on.

Countdown's getting 300,000, something like that, which actually is a success story because it was really in the doldrums under the previous presenter.

And they bought in Colin Murray and it's had a lease of life, but it's 300,000.

They have New Life in the Sun, you know, Chateau DIY, good shows, but are getting 300,000, 400,000.

And Channel 4, you're not, you know, I think the other day for Taskmaster was the first thing that even got close to a million, and that's nine o'clock at night.

So very, very little is getting a million.

And yet in daytime, you do have shows that do that.

ITV, six, seven hundred thousand, as I say, all morning and a consistent audience, that's healthy.

And you wait till...

tipping point and chase and the ratings are through the roof there, you know, 1.5.

The chase can get 3 million on a good day.

So daytime tv is is it really really really pays its way because it's much deeper than normal tv and yet we're losing half the jobs here and that that is as i say i don't think it's the fault i don't think it's bungling channel bosses i think it is the new reality of british television and i just want to say i've spoken to various presenters of gmb who are absolutely gutted because i think they feel like that team has done incredibly to to bring GMB to where it is today.

But they're all safe.

I think that's something very notable about this news.

They might be doing slightly less.

Yes, they've lost half of their year's work.

But yeah, the key thing is...

Well, I don't know.

Not necessarily, because for someone like Lorraine, if she was doing four days a week before and someone else was doing Fridays, now it's fewer weeks of the year, but she's doing five days.

Oh, Lorraine, Lorraine does 30 weeks a year, whatever.

So it's the team.

So as I say, I've talked to some presenters and none of them are crowing.

None of them are going, few, we've still got our jobs.

They're all saying this team who we've worked with forever and ever and ever, that's lighting, sound, camera, makeup, wardrobe.

Those are the people, they all got summoned to ITV the night before this announcement.

And they were told, if we give you a green light, you've kept your job.

If we give you an amber light, you have to reapply for your job.

And if you get a red light, you've lost your job.

And these are people who've worked in this same team for, you know, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years.

And again, listen, there's an inevitability about it.

I get it.

But as someone who's grown up in that industry and grown up with those people and grown up in those teams, it's a sad day, I would say.

It's a sad day, but I don't think it's due to mismanagement.

I think it's due to the new economics of the situation that we live in.

I mean, it's weird, you know, when you and I were really young, you know, these channels used to have old films on in the afternoon.

And I honestly sometimes think we might end up with some of that in the schedule because I think eventually that's good, just making programmes at all becomes prohibitively expensive.

And I think that bought in stuff at some point will take up more of the daytime weekday schedule, as it once did, you know, as it once did.

Yes, I mean, you know, all TV has expanded.

You know, as you say, we used to have a very small amount of TV and it costs us an awful lot.

And now

it's on constantly.

But we've had this for a long time now.

You know, most people under 45 are used to television being on the whole time.

And so we mustn't show our age too much.

Listen, we're not Nick Ferrari yet, Marina.

He's very good.

Listen,

I genuinely don't doubt it.

I take a lot of cabs.

I'm aware of his qualities.

But this has happened before on ITV daytime.

They were forced into a change before, and it really, really worked for them, is the interesting thing.

I think this is what's behind it.

Because if you cast your mind back seven or eight years, and the Jeremy Carl show was an absolute fixture of ITV mornings.

And when that had to be taken off air for the reasons that we all know, GMB and Lorraine moved forward a bit.

This morning moved backwards a bit and they covered the gap like an open wound.

and Nobody noticed the difference.

So they saved it, you know the Jeremy Carl show, which cost them whatever it cost them.

Suddenly the same production teams who were already making progress for them closed up across that whole hour.

Nothing happened to the ratings, but something happened to the cost, which is it came down.

So they've done this before.

And something happens to the employees of those shows.

And that, you know, you led on that when we opened this item, and that's what I totally, you know, it's absolutely heartbreaking for those people who have lost their jobs and have

built these shows.

I agree.

But I also agree realistically that

it can be covered much in the way you said as it happened before.

Yeah, you know, the only thing I think that's tricky about it is these are successful shows.

And that's a real

kick in the nuts for everybody who's working on this.

Listen, we've all worked on failing shows, all of us, and you're aware that at the end of the contract, there's not going to be another contract.

You absolutely get it.

That's the business we work in.

It's a hits business.

But these people are working on hits.

So, Channel 4 this week also announced something which went down very badly with the independent sector anyway, which is they are going to start producing more of their programs in-house.

And now, to explain what that means, BBC traditionally always made all of their own programs.

Now, independents make programmes for them as well.

ITV have ITV studios, which make lots of programs for them.

And what that means essentially is you're getting the advertising money for putting a show like The Chase out, but you're also getting money from selling The Chase abroad.

So

you're double dipping every time you do a show.

Now, Channel 4, whose sole existence is to support a British creative industry and support independence, are again in a situation where the money is not adding up.

And so they are suggesting that they do what the BBC and ITV do, BBC Studios and ITV Studios, and have their own in-house production.

The indie sector has understandably gone nuts about that because the whole point of Channel 4 was it was to support this industry.

But they're just choosing a different route than ITV to exactly the same same problem, which is if the money is not coming in to your channel and you want your channel to continue, and we all do that if we're inside an organization, you have to do something.

I think the channel four thing doesn't smell right to me because the whole job is supposed to be to support the British creative industry.

And if they're owning their own companies, I think it's harder.

But it just goes to show that, you know, everybody.

everybody is having terrible trouble.

Everybody is out there saying, can you do the same for half the price?

Is the conversation certainly not limited to, as I say, to, you know, as we've talked about it before in drama and other things that people are saying for half or two-thirds of the price.

Not can you, but you're going to need to find a way of doing it because otherwise it's not going to happen at all.

Yeah, at the big BBC Comedy Festival up in Belfast last week, again, this was a lot of the conversation.

The producers are saying, we cannot afford to keep making the comedy we make and

we need to find a way of making it cheaper we need to find a way of British audiences accepting slightly cheaper looking television because the nice thing with comedy is if it's funny it's funny and people will forgive what it looks like so that conversation's being had and they they announced a lot of new commissions at that and some of them are on the cheaper end of the scale so that's three different channels the BBC trying to find cost cuttings in making the sort of things it was making anyway.

ITV consolidating lots of different shows under one banner, saving money.

Channel 4 thinking, can we make our own television programs and make money?

And all of these people are speaking to the same point, which is the industry we grew up with is no longer there.

And can we eke it out as long as possible and get to the point where we have a big streaming service owned by these companies that actually can compete internationally?

And if we can keep going for the next five years, then I think we have a chance to do that because with AI, the whole industry is about to change completely, completely.

And I think if you're still in the game at that point, I think then this industry could remain very, very healthy.

I agree with that.

That is a positive note to wind this occasionally negative item up with.

Good old AI.

I mean, listen, it's going to kill us all as well.

Yeah, of course.

At least it'll be good for TV.

That's the message of this podcast.

We will die at the hands of the machines, but we will be watching great telly while it's happening.

Yeah, right up to the last minute.

Can I just watch one more minute of Escape to the Country before you annihilate me?

Right.

On that note, shall we go to a break?

Yeah, well, you say that because you know you're getting a present off.

I know, I just want to go to a break.

Can we go to a break and come back from the break and get my present?

But please listen to the adverts, you know, like always.

This podcast is brought to you by Sky, where you can watch season three of And Just Like That, the next chapter in the Sex in the City story.

What is Carrie Bretfer up to now, Marina?

Well, she has said goodbye to her beloved apartment.

She's moved into a townhouse in Gramacy Park.

New chapter, new book.

She is writing.

You'll love this.

She's writing romantic, Richard.

Yes, that genre we have already pretended to understand for this podcast.

Just romance and fantasy.

Listen, it's what I'm doing next.

The Thursday Romantic Club.

Now, Miranda's adjusting to post-shea life.

Charlotte is navigating family life while reliving her 30s alongside younger colleagues.

And Carrie, she is still catastrophically allergic to stability, but trying.

Watch the brand new season of And Just Like That, available 30th of May on Sky.

Welcome back, everybody.

Apologies, by the way, if you hear some Italian traffic in the background.

I have to keep the window open here.

Otherwise, I shall die.

Oh, no, I'm so sorry.

Yeah,

it's very atmospheric, and you're open to the Italian streets.

I'm hearing no atmosphere, but a lot of attitude.

That's what I'm hearing.

Now, shall we go straight on to talk about this British band who are making waves, or shall we give you your present?

I want to talk about sleep token, but you know, I have to have my present first.

Let's have your present.

Now, this is something we talked about a while ago.

It's almost impossible to get hold of, but we managed to get hold of one for you.

Now, Joey, our lovely producer in London, has got it for you.

He's going to bring it in for you now.

Oh my god, look, it's being passed to me right now.

Oh, my gosh.

This is like unboxing.

This is going to go crazy on YouTube.

Oh, my God.

Is this Glenn Powell's mustard?

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

god.

Oh my god, you're so lucky.

This is the Smash Kitchen.

This is not a sponsored content.

I just want you to know.

Oh my God, look, they've even got me some chips that I can try it with.

Oh my god, I'm going to try this live.

What else is in this bag?

Smash Kitchen spicy mayonnaise.

Why hasn't Glen Powell, like Paul Newman, put his face on this?

This is, that is a bulldrop, I've got to say.

But can I try it now?

What are you trying, the mustard or the spicy mayonnaise?

Spicy mayonnaise, obviously that I'm going first with it, but don't worry, it'll all get used.

Hang on, I've got to take off that little bit.

This could be 40 minutes, as anyone who's ever opened to catch up at home will know.

This is the sort of content Nick Ferrari would kill for.

Right, here it is.

Look, there we go.

Let me try that with a chip.

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Conojulas crucientes and verdad qualities encantas.

Ademas delicious trosos de granola nuces y fruta que todos vana disprutal.

Honey punches devotes para todos.

Tocal bene para sabermás.

I'm getting very strong top notes of salad cream, actually, weirdly.

Interesting that a Texan thinks this is spicy, but yeah, it's growing, it's growing on me.

Is it like the like, very much like the work of Glenn Powell that's now actually grown on me and is now symbiotically linked on me?

You know, you cut if you cut one of us, we bleed.

He says this all the time, by the way, but they cut it out of interviews, they don't want to draw attention to me.

I absolutely, I can't thank you enough.

I say this present is from me.

Yes.

It's impossible to get hold of this Glen Powell source in the UK.

Impossible.

But I'll tell you where it's not impossible, that's America.

And one of our listeners, lovely Sam Bond, said to us, I'm coming over to the UK.

Can I buy some Glen Powell sauce for you and bring it over for Marina?

And we said, Sam, thank you so much.

That would be our absolute pleasure.

I think she's written you a little note as well.

Sorry, I feel like I'm doing the birthdays on CBeebies.

Excuse me.

Right.

Sorry.

Hello, Marina.

I hope you enjoy these Glen Powell Smash Kitchen items.

I'll be honest, I had to ask my two girls who Glen Powell was.

Well, I'm gosh, well, I mean, the present is actually all yours, isn't it, Sam?

Yes.

Which only went to prove how out of the loop I am, especially as we live in Austin.

Oh, my gosh.

That's cool.

Okay, Sam, Richard, I cannot thank you enough.

This is a wonderful present.

I, yeah.

Thank you so much.

You've made me very happy.

except now talking of things that are hot and successful in america sleep token sleep token there's so a british band they were number one in the uk last week and number one in america have you heard of them now again we're talking about the the siloization of our culture so to be number one in america number one album in america is huge it's a huge deal and that's exactly what sleep token have just done with their their fourth album uh which is called and this will give you an idea of what the type of band sleep token are it's called even in Arcadia.

Give you an even more of an idea of what sort of bands Sleep Token are.

Their second album was called This Place Will Become Your Tomb.

Now, Sleep Token are one of those bands, nobody, nobody knows who they are because they are always masked at all times.

The lead singer is called Vessel, probably not his real name, and the other members of the band are called in Roman numerals 2, 3, and 4.

So formed in 2016,

always been masked.

Their shtick is they they worship a deity called sleep.

It's hard rock.

It's hard rock.

It's not hard rock.

Okay, yeah, I agree.

This is what they like to describe themselves as.

So you're listening and you're expecting you're going to hear something fully metal.

But there's that, like, you're hearing, am I hearing art pop now?

I mean, it's the least metal thing I've ever heard.

Basically, you could put this in your hand luggage and it would go through the scanners, I think.

That's what I thought that I genuinely, if you've not listened to them, go on to Spotify or

buy something, buy an album and have a listen because it's sort of

everything all at once.

There's kind of some new metal there, there's EDM in there, there's alt pop, there's pop rap, there's a bit of shoe gaze, it's kind of everything.

They sings in a very operatic song, but then he's guttural kind of screams as well.

So it's a very, very peculiar sound.

And as I say, I think the fascinating thing about them is the secrecy of who they are.

Now, you can find out who they are very easily, but I will choose not to say who they actually are.

But they present themselves entirely masked, entirely,

you know, they have a backstory of these things that they worship.

Every single one of their Instagram posts starts behold, which suggests to me they've also got a sense of humor.

Yeah, their live shows are called rituals.

The singles are offerings.

For maybe older listeners, there's a very, very strong sense of spinal tap, Stonehenge to this.

There's like a real like, you know, England is a country of folklore, etc., etc.

And obviously the title, you know, Take Me Back to Eden, even in Arcadia, all of these things are deliberately pretentious, as it were.

The masks thing I think is interesting.

They are the second masked band to have a number one album in the last month.

In America.

Yeah, in America.

And that was Ghost with Skeletor.

But there's something about, obviously, by the way, masks, and particularly masks in kind of hard rock and metal or whatever have always been around.

You had, I don't know, Guar guaranteed slip knot and pussy, even pussy riot.

And actually, you're also, I suppose, I'm thinking in Darth Punk, in Electronica, you've had the knife, whatever, people like that.

But there's something about this particular age where so many bands are singing about these kind of weird parasocial relationships, their fans, and you know, whatever that

masks in some ways make more sense than ever in this kind of weird world.

In the last single, um, Vessel sings, is Caramel the last single, he says this stage has become a prison.

And

the idea of even being hidden

has captured him.

Well, I love it when bands get to that stage where a huge amount of the music they're making is

about the songs, about the pressures of fame.

Do you remember that bit in Almost Famous where Philip Seymour Hoffman, who's playing Lester Bang, says to the kid, and the kid's like, I don't know, you know, how am I pitching this to Roading Stone?

He's asked me what type of piece I'm writing.

I don't know what I'm writing.

And he says, tell him it's a think piece about a mid-level band struggling with its own limitations in the face of harsh stardom.

He'll wet himself.

And to some extent, this is a mid-level band struggling with its own limitations in the face of harsh stardom.

Am I right?

They're not critical darlings, Richard.

No, God, they're not.

Can I read you something from

some stereo gum about it when the album went to number one?

So I think they've been tolerated while they weren't number one.

As soon as you're number one, everyone's like, okay.

So this is from Stereo Gum, the American music site.

It said, if you are lucky enough to have never heard a sleep token song before, allow me to give you some context.

They are an anonymous British band who, by blending unexceptional metal core with lots of nauseating, soulful white boy vibrato, have become one of the most popular and defining heavy bands of the 2020s.

They've just put out their fourth full-length offering.

That's what they call their own records, titled Even in Arcadia, and it is now American number one.

I think it's a good news story.

I genuinely do.

A band is a gang, and you do have to have, you know, your own legends a band.

And this is a gang of British guys who are number one in America.

And we've talked a lot about where have the bands gone?

Where are the bands?

This is a band who absolutely done it their own way and are selling, you know, they're making a huge amount of money.

They're selling up huge arenas.

Well, if it's that's some real Italian traffic noise, yeah, that's the that's the Italian sleep token fan club who

drive around in a converted ambulance.

Okay, so a certain amount of

opinion has coalesced about who they really are.

If they are, and Vessel, the sort of lead singer, basically, is who they say he is, then what an amazing turnaround.

You just plug away doing a certain thing and then just think, tell you what, what if I get a ludicrous mask, a ludicrous stage cut, I start drawing down all this kind of thing that that type of band is always, you know, bollocks about English folklore and heritage in our own soil and all this nonsense.

And I just really just commit to the bit.

If it is who they say it is, I think it is, yeah.

I think it is too.

And if you look at, I've spent so long on it this week, and I do think it's him.

And if you look at what he was doing before, and now it's like,

I mean, what a story.

It's an amazing story.

And actually, I really hope that one day,

I don't know, even if it's decades away, enough time has passed to say, well, here's how we did it.

Because it's almost like a swindle.

And I'm not saying it is a swindle.

It isn't.

And the way people talk about it.

So I think there's something really fascinating about that, about it.

But in another way,

I do think it's interesting, like the type type of music that the way they look and all of that, you know, you're expecting some really kind of absolute insane, that gritty, that really kind of nutty, gritty slip-knot type of metal or whatever it is.

And in fact, there's something really basic and commercial about them.

It's really, it's really, it's really poppy.

And yeah, it's really poppy.

And it reminded, it actually reminded me of that thing that I took ages to read.

And did you see that article in New York magazine?

It's called something, its headline is something like, it must be nice to be a West Village girl.

And it's about how all these kind of young women, um gen zers i guess now live in the west village and have kind of copied a kind of very basic kind of commercialized sex in the city type of lifestyle type of you know it's and it's very very samey and some of them say yeah we're basic but that's because things are nice that are basic and there's something about the kind of sharp um rubbing off of all the sharp edges of these places and maybe these genres and all of these things and I do think that that's something having listened quite a lot now to this album, I'm like, Yeah, it's really been packaged in a in a in a in a basic and commercial way, yeah, it has, but I genuinely, hats off to them, I have to say, I think it's extraordinary.

Can I talk very briefly as a sidebar about ghosts, who are the other, the other masked band, who are an awful lot of fun, Swedish, so write like great big pop songs.

But they were formed.

There's a guy called Tobias Forge.

I mean, we know he's ghost for reasons I'll get to.

And he said, He says, I, I, I just wrote this song.

It's called Stand By Him.

And he said it just had the greatest heavy metal riff I've ever heard.

So I thought,

I have to record this song.

By the way, can I two lyrics from Stand By Him?

A Temptress Smitten by the Blackest Force.

A Vicar bitten blind in intercourse.

Only the Swedes.

Only the Swedes.

No, it's my new favourite couple in absolutely anything.

You're going to have to.

It's amazing.

You have to text me this immediately afterwards.

A Vicar bitten blind in intercourse.

Anyway, so he wrote this and he teamed up with one of his mates, Gustav Lindstrom, who obviously he used to be in the band Repugnant with.

And they teamed up and they recorded this song, Stand By Him, and they looked at each other and said,

We don't look like the guys who are playing this song.

We don't look like hard, heavy metal rockers.

So they decided at that point to wear masks and have done ever since.

And Ghost are...

huge.

I mean, they're massive.

Oh my god, I wish we had masks for this podcast.

We should have done that right now.

Look, I've got big shoulders on this cardigan, but imagine if they were like just the spikes, you know, the sort of real metal, the hole, and then the sort of weird kind of Japanese, vaguely kabuki-ish mask.

If either of us are ever off for any reason, right, we must, whoever co-hosts with us must wear a mask

and we'll give them a name and people can try and guess who they were and slightly change the voice.

I'll just stick to some very basic dry ice with some pennants fluttering in the background and something to do with, you know, Stonehenge happening.

it's perfect so um tobias forge leads ghost and all the all the other members of the band are called nameless ghouls tobias forge keeps naming himself uh after popes and then killing that pope and then he's he's the next pope but anyway the reason that we know it's tobias forge and listen this is uh

I hope this doesn't happen to our friends in Sleep Token.

The reason we know it's Tobias Forge is because the other three nameless ghouls took him to court because they said that they cut him out, he'd cut them out of the royalties.

And so he got named in all the court proceedings, which is how we know Tobias Forge.

Yeah, so

Tobias Forge is still quite a good name.

Yeah, it's a great heavy metal name.

You know, my favorite, Vindeez or Mark Sinclair.

Yeah.

If you were called, if you were called Tobias Forge in England, you've already that's the most heavy metal name you can have.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You might as well be called Jethro Anvil.

It's absolutely perfect.

Anyway, listen, so ghosts are, if you, by the way, if you like the old school heavy metal and you don't know ghosts, they are a lot of fun, very, very satanic.

And if you like the old school heavy metal and you haven't had sleep token you're not going to be hearing any old school heavy

i know but it's interesting and it's really interesting they're like their their fandom is really young and they're hugely popular so it is a great uh great british success story ah uh should we talk about a great american success story now please miss rachel some people will already know her she does a youtube channel called songs for littles now ms rachel

This again is another indication of how success can come from pretty much anywhere.

And, you know, we sometimes think you need to know the right people or you need to already be connected to become a huge hit.

She is now making $18 million a year.

And it came from the fact that she was a preschool teacher and had a son, Thomas, who didn't speak till he was two and a half, so late onset speaking.

And so she started writing songs to help young children learn to speak.

So in 2019, in person, she would host these classes for parents with children who are having difficulty speaking.

and she would sing songs.

It got so popular, she was like, I'm going to have to film some of these so some of the people who can't come can see and can hear the songs and can you know benefit from these things.

She got two master's degrees in early years education and music education.

So she's the real deal.

You know, she knows she knows what she's doing.

So she started filming these things and they absolutely took off.

So that was 2019.

If you remember what happened in 2020, the pandemic.

And during the pandemic, this thing went crazy because a lot of people were at home where their kids were home educating.

And also, people were worried actually that the kids were not learning to speak as quickly as they might have done because of the lack of sociability and the lack of friendship groups.

So it went absolutely crazy.

Interestingly, also, in America,

there was genuine concern that American kids had started speaking with an English accent because Peppa Pig was so huge and because young kids were only learning to speak from Peppa Pig.

So Miss Rachel very much speaks in an American accent now miss rachel's got 15 million subscribers on youtube she's over 10 billion views of her content she's like an american mr tumble you know mr tumble justin fletcher who does who kids absolutely adore but also incredibly interesting for babies and toddlers it's for a really young age section

and she's become enormous and she's done a deal with netflix but it's interesting the deal she i think this is really interesting the type of deal she did it's amazing what she's done That they've done four compilation episodes of her videos.

So they've made it up to an hour and they took four of these.

And this is the reason, if you're like me and you kind of constantly look at Netflix to see what's in the chart that week, you might have known what all the shows are.

And then you keep seeing this kind of lady in a pink headband and think, who is that?

And that's because it's not for you.

But she is.

That's all they had.

It instantly went to number one for babies and toddlers.

And it's been bobbing along in the top 10 chart ever since they've had it.

Now, along with Mickey Mouse Clubhouse, which is Disney, obviously, that is, she's the most watched in children's streaming programming, and she's number 10 in all streaming content.

Yeah,

so children's content is incredibly valuable.

Bluey is by a million miles the most watched show on Disney Plus.

There are other people who Netflix have done similar deals with.

Blippy, who they also took his content and put it on Netflix.

He's a YouTuber to begin with.

Same with Cocomelon.

I think it's very interesting.

It's interesting for lots of different reasons.

She also, I should say, that she's had all these different backlashes.

But it's interesting what Netflix want.

Netflix wants a children's library.

Something like 15% of their viewership is on children's content anyway.

Just this last week, they've acquired Sesame Street.

Interesting that deal I noticed, it allows them to do games, mobile games.

Mobile games for children are absolutely huge.

It's a huge growth area.

They're like doubling all the time how many people are doing it.

And so you've got pepper pig games and cocoa melon games.

But children's television workshop, who is the, they're now called the Sesame Street Workshop, but they started Sesame Street and it was in the late 60s.

And it's really interesting because the same things that held true then remain true now.

Even though we kind of panic about screen time and all of these things, they realized that preschool children in America, this is late 1960s, were watching 27 hours of television a week.

Only 27 hours only 27 hours and they'd spent you know four thousands of hours in front of it by the time they first entered school and they also um thought and it was often in families where they didn't have enough time to look after children and children were put in front of television um and you know we've certainly all done that ourselves um but Joan Cooney who was one of the founders, she saw that what preschool children loved when they were watching all that American television, which wasn't really even meant for them, what they loved most was the commercials because they were really short and they had little jingles and they were really repetitive repetitive and they absolutely and so much of Sesame Street's programming came from her watching how babies and preschool children reacted to those adverts and how much they enjoyed them and they tried to use it as a learning tool and it's obviously been hugely successful and it's kind of beyond iconic isn't it Sesame Street but it's interesting that Netflix got that as well this week they're really trying to kind of create a children's library but something that we've obviously talked about lots of times and we've said a million times you know Netflix won the streaming wars i think the next question now is or did they because exactly listen it's it's it's no longer netflix versus the networks or netflix versus studios the the next 10 years is netflix versus youtube that's the they're aware that their only competitor is youtube and the one interesting advantage netflix can have is youtube for a while signed creators to exclusive deals and very soon gave that up.

It didn't really work for anybody.

So actually anything on YouTube is up for grabs.

So as you say, Ms.

Rachel, and if you've not seen it, it's her singing songs.

She'll do things like The Wheels on the Bus and Insequencey Spider.

She will also,

she writes her own songs.

She's another singer-songwriter on there.

Her husband, Aaron Acurso, is a musical director.

And, you know, so she'll do icky sticky bubblegum, Jump Like a Frog, original songs as well.

And she talks to cameras, she talks to the kids as well.

So

that's all the content is.

She does it in her own apartment in front of a green screen.

And it's it's putting in 18 million dollars a year so that's what it is so ms rachel has already done all this stuff as you say she's parceled it up for netflix in presumably a very lucrative deal she doesn't have to do any extra work at all she's got these hour-long things that she's already recorded so it's working beautifully for ms rachel it's working beautifully for netflix youtube don't have a business plan where they can keep all these things in-house anyway but as you say netflix are trying to find ways to beat youtube They are no longer trying to beat the networks.

They are trying to beat YouTube.

And kids' programming, because we know that young kids, YouTube

is just the single go-to platform.

That's the real battleground.

And Ms.

Rachel being quite so successful on Netflix is a huge hit for them.

Yes, I agree.

I think it's interesting to look at the CEOs of those two organizations, or the co-CEO in case of Ted Sarandos for Netflix, and then Neil Mohan, who YouTube's only 20 years, it's so weird to think YouTube's only 20 years old.

I listened to an interesting interview with him and what was being put to him was like, oh, look at how many of your creators, even though they're really big, have gone off and have gone to Prime in the case of Mr.

Beast to do a show.

And here's Miss Rachel, but she's not really doing anything different.

And the point of the interviewer in that particular one was to say, but aren't, you know, are people trying to get something that they feel they can't get on your platform?

And actually, he didn't sound rattle at all, Neil Mohan.

He said, I'll tell you what, Netflix came to them and that's fine, but they all love YouTube the most because they get no notes.

And there is something, I know, but it's true, isn't it, right?

It's the dream.

It's the dream.

Now, in contrast, Ted Sarandos, I was,

you probably saw this is a couple of few weeks ago.

He was talking, people keep asking him about YouTube all the time.

And he's starting to sound more and more antsy in a weird way about it.

He said that, you know, I'm focused on capturing the 80% of TV viewing that isn't on either of our platforms.

And he's making a big deal about, you know, we have professional content and he's trying to make them sound like either pro-am or just amateur.

But he said, you know, YouTube's a good platform to cut your teeth on.

He's trying to make it seem like you go to YouTube and then eventually you come to, which is what, by the way, the networks always used to do.

And then you come to the serious people.

And then he said, YouTube's for killing time.

Netflix is for spending time.

Now, that is the first time I have ever heard him sound old and bitter.

That is the first time because he's always sounded like, hey, I'm not bothered by any of this.

It's honestly, I've thought he sounded rattled.

And maybe that's just me.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

But it's the first time I've ever heard him and thought, ooh, you know, you're really, there's something about this.

And I'm not saying that it's going in one way and not at all, because I think Netflix are doing it brilliantly.

And in many ways, they're becoming more like YouTube.

Look what they're trying to do.

They're trying to have podcasts on Netflix.

They're trying to...

change the home screen because the key with all these services like how quickly can they get you to what you want that's become everything youtube themselves are trying to change change their home screen to make it look a bit more like a conventional streamer.

They're going to have a live NFL game.

Everyone's sort of becoming trying to move in formation and become a bit like each other without having to lose what made them that in the first place.

If you look at YouTube as well, this week

they've been holding their sort of parties to try and get some of their content nominated for Emmys.

This is the big thing because the one thing they're aware on their channel is maybe they don't have the traditional industry recognition that you can get on other places.

And by the way, with traditional industry recognition, your advertising dollars also go up a lot.

So, you know, Sean Evans, who does hot ones, the chicken wins, that's that's going to be up against all the big kind of late-night chat shows for the Emmys.

So everyone is trying to be everyone else at the same time.

And we will all end up in the same place, which is traditional scheduled television with adverts in the middle of it.

Yeah, and they'll have, yeah, I agree.

And there will be premium shows on YouTube, not the service where the people play for YouTube premium, but there will be professionally produced content, even though Neil Mohan from YouTube would say, but we have professionally, don't tell me Mr.

Beast isn't professionally produced.

But clearly, Mr.

Beast felt there's still something for him on Prime that he couldn't get.

But Ted Sarandos said about that, interestingly, oh, look, Mr.

Beast lost 80 million on his YouTube channel last year.

That would never happen on Netflix, basically.

Well, by the way, I don't think he made any money from Beast Games necessarily because he said he spent it all.

But it's not, it's everyone, as you say, is trying to to be everybody else.

Yeah.

But yeah, it's Netflix won the streaming wars, or did they?

Yeah.

If I can finish with two things.

Firstly, how great was Ted Sarandos playing himself in the studio, the Seth Rogan show?

He was amazing.

He's like a pro actor.

But secondly, as I say, just like Sleep Token, this is a huge success story.

And it's a story that success can come from anywhere in a way that actually our culture is becoming slightly more democratized.

And we keep seeing examples, Colleen Hoover in literature, Sleep Token in music, Ms.

Rachel in television content, of people who come from absolutely nowhere with no connections, find an audience, grow their audience organically, and are then able to monetize their own audience.

Something we didn't have 15, 20 years ago.

You know, there would be a gatekeeper in there immediately, and it just is not happening anymore.

And I think that there's a real positivity in that.

In no notes culture.

In no-notes culture, yeah.

Any recommendations?

I've got one, but I've read,

I've just read a book that lots of people read last year, but it's totally brilliant.

It's a novel.

It's called The Wizard of the Kremlin by Giuliano de Empoli, and I'm meant to get around to reading it.

And now it's all about, it's a novel, but it's so brilliant and clever about how power works in modern Russia.

It's absolutely gripping and it's so brilliantly written.

So that is a recommendation for me.

He sounds Italian, Giovanni de' Empoli.

But what can't he do?

Because he fully understands the sort of things slithering around the Kremlin.

I finally caved in and watched the film that everyone's already watched, but if you haven't watched it, recommend it Conclave.

We watched the other day.

It's really good.

It's like a really good...

It's like a, when they say, why don't they make films like that anymore?

They just didn't.

It's called Conclave.

There's a huge amount of acting in it.

Huge amount of action.

There is a lot of acting in it.

Oh, that sounds like you didn't love it.

But listen, don't listen to Marina.

She's very much the Nick Ferrari of this podcast.

I loved watching the Vatican get chewed.

Every piece of that beautiful scenery.

Wow.

Wow.

I loved it.

I loved it.

It was rewritten as well.

Yes.

And also, Cardinal Benitez, who plays a major part,

I wonder if he calls himself Cardi B.

That's what I was thinking all the way through.

Listen, that ruined a bit of the film for me when I was thinking that.

Thanks for passing that one on.

Paying it for you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

As always.

I hope you like your present.

I love it so much.

I'm going to use it tonight.

I don't know if they'll be serving this on the tables of Bologna, but if they're not, try and make them think that they ought to have have Glen Powell's source available in all their fine restaurants.

Knowing Italians as I do know, it feels like they might not.

Well, try and drag them into the 21st century, Richard, because this stuff is going places.

This is not sponsored content.

They'll have to start with the 20th century first.

See you on Thursday for some QA action.

See you on Thursday.

Well, that brings us to the end of another episode of The Wrestlers Entertainment, brought to you by our friends at Skype.

I have been catching up on The Last of Us recently, such a gripping watch.

Absolutely right.

The critics are fairly unanimous.

It's dark and intense, brilliantly done, they're all saying, especially on your skyglass with its high-quality screen.

Yeah, even those very low-lit scenes, every flicker, every detail, it really pulls you in.

One minute you'll be stretched out on the sofa, the next you'll be gripping the cushion, and that is not a euphemism.

The picture quality really just brings everything to life from the comfort of your living room.

It feels properly cinematic, like the room fades away and you're in the thick of it.

Until the clickers show up, then it feels a bit too real.

Well, that's when you reach for the blanket.

The perfect night in.

Couldn't agree more.

So, for anyone wanting to upgrade this screen time, head to sky.com and check out SkyTV.