Can Jesus Save Hollywood?

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Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Entertainment with me, Marina Hyde.

And me, Richard Osman.

Hello, Marina.

Hello, Richard.

How are you?

Yeah, I'm really, really well.

We've just been given some Lindor mini eggs by Joey, our lovely producer.

As a little post-Easter treat.

You've just moved house.

Yeah, I have.

Haven't you?

Has that been fun?

Apparently people wrote in and said, what's going to happen about the books system?

The great thing is, listeners, unfortunately,

much of the house isn't finished, and the bookshelf issue has been deferred because no books can be put on the shelves.

I wouldn't have thought for at least six weeks.

So they're sitting a giant monolith that's taller than me and goes, you can walk all the way around the edge of these huge piles of boxes of books.

But yeah,

it's like a physical manifestation of a future argument in the middle of the room.

Just sitting, sitting, I mean, you know, the elephant in the room, it's bigger than an elephant.

It's absolutely massive.

It's several elephant sizes.

But yeah, so don't worry.

There hasn't been any discussion on that.

Otherwise, great, you know.

Fabulous.

Now, this week

we're talking about faith-based films because I had a very good run of

success recently in the box office.

We're also

essentially God at the box office.

God at the box office.

And talking of God, we're also talking about...

It's also like the family genre.

Seriously, it's the only thing doing well.

We're going to talk about Reacher, and we're going to talk about two people people involved in Reacher, Lee Child and Nick Santoro, the guy behind the Reacher show.

I'm going to tell you all about those.

I can't wait.

I can't wait for that.

And Glenn Powell has released a source line.

This is, do you know what?

We were chatting earlier in the week saying, that's good.

We wanted to talk about...

God in the cinema, and I wanted to talk about Nick Santoro.

And we're going, what would be an interesting third one?

And then you just sent me the thing saying that Glenn Powell had released a new source.

So I go, well, there's our third item.

I mean,

first of all, let's talk about faith-based God at the box office, as you put it.

And this, do you know what?

I didn't think about it.

It was quite themed, isn't it?

It is quite themed.

Yeah, it is quite themed.

And in fact, Easter Weekend is part of it.

But last week,

three of the top 10 U.S.

cinematic box office spots were taken up by faith-based things.

And I'm saying things because, Richard, you're going to be thrilled to hear.

Only one of them is a film,

which is The King of Kings, which we'll come on to in just a second.

Episodes two and three of this season of The Chosen, which we've talked about on the podcast before which is the sort of long-form drama series about the life of christ those have been put into cinemas you know they love to bring people in two of them episodes two and three only that's how many have been out so far is three they were all in the in the charts that is incredible i mean it's incredible they just put one episode out and people come so king of kings is made by angel studios who used to be involved in the chosen but um they now do that separately but they make lots of they made sound of freedom which i which was that.

Yeah, I'm not sure I've seen Sound of Freedom.

Okay, it was massive.

It was, um, it's like a sort of search and rescue thriller about a guy who, US government sort of agent who rescues people from, um,

children from Colombian sex traffickers.

But like God-based.

Yeah, I mean, and some people thought vaguely QAnon-based, but it made 250 million at the Global Box obviously.

It became this incredibly, this surprise hit.

We can come to the story of that in a bit, but the King of Kings was number two to Minecraft.

And I don't need to tell you, being number two to Minecraft is no shame.

Kenneth Branner is the voice.

It's animated and it's.

Kenneth Branner.

Yeah, he's the voice of Dickens.

It's Dickens animating.

Sorry?

It's Dickens telling the story of Christ.

Now, hang on a second.

Dickens telling the story of Christ.

I know that sounds, yeah, in a sort of very much a kind of, he's telling the story of Christ to his kind of slightly doubting son, a little bit like the relationship between Peter Falk and Fred Savage in the one in the Princess Bride, right?

In the Princess's Bride.

Yeah, in The Princess Bride.

But Charles Dickens did write a version of Jesus's life called The Life of Our Lord to sort of educate his children at a certain point.

Anyway, but that is the concept of this film.

And it's got lots of good, great people doing bosses, like Forrest Whitaker, Mark Hamill, half a third of Thursday Murder Club, by the way, are doing it.

Ben Kingsley's in it.

Pierce Brosnan is Pontius Pilot, which sounds easy.

Easy.

Interesting casting, but you know, it's voice casting is different.

It makes them even cooler.

Yeah.

Okay.

By the way,

Oscar Isaac is Jesus.

Oscar Isaac is Jesus.

Okay, listen.

Fair.

Fair enough.

Anyway, so it's a hugely successful film, this.

It's taken.

And it's animation.

Yeah.

So it's very interesting how they do this.

Okay.

So they acquired this film in terms of concept and everything from this direct, a South Korean director who's called Song Ho-jang, and he's also a visual effects artist.

Sorry, there's a South Korean director,

Dickens, telling the story of the Bible in animation with Pierce Brosnan and his Pontius Pilot.

Yeah, I'm telling you, it's second only to Jason Momoa doing improv.

So it's very, very popular, Richard.

Anyhow, but it's interesting how Angel Studios have built themselves anyway.

First of all, they are also a streaming platform, but they are also they create their own stuff as well.

When they created Sound of Freedom and things like that, they had this thing called the Angel Guild.

So they have people who sign up and they're members.

There were 100,000 of them back then.

They crowdfund for distribution and marketing cash.

And so what you have, so they have this sort of pretty, very engaged audience anyway.

And

their films do, you know, there was a point where I think The Sound of Freedom was something like 100% on Rotten Tomatoes because people are so engaged.

Remember, people are thinking.

Now, that Angel Guild now has a million members.

And do you know what they do?

I mean, we've talked, we've been talking about this.

Well, they ask them about projects and they say

this is how they, it's more than market research.

Once you sign up and you become a member, you have, you can vote on projects, you can sort of offer notes on ideas.

They, they say, and then it's sort of equity crowdfunding.

What do you think about the idea of Pierce Brosnan as Pontius Pilot?

And they're all, yeah, we love it.

But I tell you what, having a million people who you know are very engaged, it's a huge part of their, it's a massive part of their decision to green light or not.

And the thing about it is, I mean, I know we keep saying this, but it is a question once again saying, I wonder what people would like to watch.

And these people make a big, you know, feed-in in lots of different ways.

Obviously, it's very democratic.

Faith-based things are not my cup of tea necessarily, but you can't deny that this model is doing brilliantly for them.

And it's really interesting.

You talk to fans, ask them what they'd like to see.

They say their exact words on it.

We think the wisdom of the crowd, their collective intelligence is much more accurate and trustworthy than a few powerful producers.

Well, you know, I mean, they've,

if you look at some of the flops this year, you know, I don't know that.

I was thinking about that Alto Nights.

The Chosen, they've only had three episodes of it in movie theatre so far.

It's already made more than $40 million.

Okay, already.

That's episode three of a Have of Only episode series.

Okay.

That sort of Alto Nights, which was...

David Zaslav, who's the head of Warner Brothers Discovery, pushed this film to be made.

It's got Robert De Niro in it.

It's very, very bad.

It's written by Nick Pelleggi, who wrote Goodfellas, but he's now 92.

He just happens to be Zazlav's like neighbor in the Hamptons.

And so he just pushed this movie all the way through it's I mean the chosen three episodes of television have made more than four or five times as much as what Alto Knights made and doesn't David Zazlaf get paid about 430 million dollars a year as well no matter what happens to the share price as we keep discovering his it will go up his pay goes up tens of millions every year clever I'd love to be on that gravy chain I must tell you it doesn't matter what happens to them I'm absolutely shocked that he doesn't believe in God more than he does

you think if if I was David Zazlaf all over do you wait I mean really Just make that just Thank You Lord.

Every film would be called Thank You Lord.

Yeah, every, I mean, well, you know, I'll tell you what, it would probably be doing well, no, the Warner Brothers have had a big hit with Minecraft, but otherwise, it might be doing better than quite a lot of this list.

Isn't Minecraft like Christianity, if you think about it?

It's all building something, isn't it?

I can't continue this, but yes.

So, this kind of democratized way of doing it is very interesting and it is very successful for them.

Angel Studios has got a, they've got two,

having done lots of smaller projects, they're now doing these very big things.

So, they had King of Kings, which is done absolutely brilliantly.

And then for, I think, Thanksgiving weekend, you know, they've got David, which is the story of David.

And remember, all the IP is free, Richard.

That's what, David Attenborough.

No, David from the Bible.

David out of the Bible.

Versus Goliath fame.

Do you know what?

It's such a great business model.

Isn't it?

Isn't it?

The IP is free.

There's loads of it.

It's got an engaged audience.

Who wanted to pay, by the way?

Can I just say that they wanted $60 million

for David and they got immediately 50 million via crowdfunding.

That's it's it's a lot.

Yeah.

But if you've got a million members and they're really engaged and you say to them, we actually care what you think.

Yeah.

And the church has spent their money on worse things in their history.

Come on, this is really

clean fun.

I like it.

And then in terms of the marketing and the promo, you don't have to spend what to get it in front of people.

It's already in front of a big enough and engaged enough community to get the word out there.

Going back to something like The Chosen, which they've put two episodes out, again, the idea of putting television in cinemas, which this community is doing, Richard.

But of course, but they also do.

By the way, the amount of messages I've had.

I wish I could have seen the last episode of The White Lotus in a cinema.

Or, you know, I wish I could.

Everyone wants to watch TV in the cinema with other people.

It's amazing how many messages I've had since we started semi-jokingly discussing this matter.

Yeah, I was never semi-joking.

I know, I know.

They've got these children's offers, like children go free, or they have a thing called pay it forward, which means you can buy a ticket for someone who otherwise wouldn't see it.

And so over Easter weekend, lots of cinemas have shown episodes one to three of The Chosen because they're doing it as a sort of, you know, as a binge.

I'm trying to think of other groups who you could get together in that sort of way to crowdfund television.

And there's actually not that many groups with that amount of people, with that much commitment to the cause.

It's quite a unique group of people, religious communities, isn't it?

Well, I mean, have you ever been to Comic-Con?

I mean,

they have a very engaged fan base.

Yes, but they absolutely all disagree with everybody else about everything.

They're incredibly disputatious.

It's like, yes,

or they just, everything has to be done exactly.

But it's very interesting that the way they've managed to do it, but also just that feeling of not handing down...

Well, I mean, handing down stone tablets, really, and saying, here's your film, here's the film you're going to go and watch the cinema, here's whatever.

But also, that's a group of people, because the trouble with Comic-Con is if you you wanted everyone to be involved in the film a million different people would have a million different versions of doing and would think they had the best version the best thing with having uh religious backers is they believe in the omnipotent power of a creator yeah don't they of all people and this is they're the greatest exec producers of all time the ip is not disputed the ip is the book of revelation which may or may not be canon

i'm given to understand

that'll probably be two films i think it's super neat it's definitely the way that things are going to be funded in future is communities of people And they've got an absolute march on it because that community is already there and probably felt that they weren't being served with things that needed to be served with.

And Angel Studios jumped in.

And I mean, it's like it's a thing of absolute beauty.

It's extraordinary.

But also, can I just talk to you very briefly about something else, which is about, we're talking about religion in Hollywood, which, by the way, is not a completely godless place.

And some people think it's becoming more religious, perhaps because that's where some of the money has gone to.

Anyway, a friend of mine went along to a a church that I think might be Peter Thiel's church.

If it's not your church, this is not libelous, even though he'll sew over anything, but it really isn't libelous.

So Peter Thiel is the sort of godfather of the billionaires, right?

Yeah, he's a PayPal founder and he's had his money in all the other different places.

And, you know, does he or doesn't he use the blood of South Koreans to stay young?

I think it's a no from him, but you know, the rumors persist.

People are saying it.

Yeah, people are saying that transfusions occur.

I'm sure, you know, as I say, he's very, very literally.

It's just reported speech.

Yeah.

I got this leaflet from it.

She got me this leaflet and I absolutely loved it.

I'm going to read you some of the things that they do.

They've got an incognito prayer team.

This is, they pray for Hollywood decision makers and celebrities.

So by the way, I'm now signed up to all that because I wanted to see what all this was.

I was like, this is too good to lose.

You can get 90028 wristbands, pray for the world's most influential zip code.

But when you say they're praying for Hollywood's decision makers, do you mean they're sort of just praying for the moral guidance to the big studio heads?

I literally literally had my latest email from them yesterday.

So, should I give you an example?

Okay, because they often tell me which executives to pray for.

Coachella, they were saying,

the concert, they've seen it's very exciting.

Coachella's begun and it's all whatever.

But the concert's also known for drugs sex and rock and roll.

So let's pray for the attendees to feel the heart of God while they are there.

Let's make it the most spirit-filled Coachella in history.

It's super hot as well, Coachella.

It's like it's in the middle of the desert.

Yeah.

You know, that's so I would be praying for.

I'd be praying for a thunderbolt.

I think it's quite a cursed event.

But I had a recent one telling me to pray for justin baldone don't worry i'm already doing it uh but saying because he's because he's for the rock from the wrong faith he's bahai and that's not that's so that pray for him for that reason also because you know i think everyone's in a bit of difficulty on that particular

they sent you an email yeah we've all noted the personnel changes at amazon studio you know jensak is out whatever whoever's please pray for the following executives really yeah I mean, I mean to, I haven't done it yet.

You know,

imagine actually dialing into the Almighty and say, hi, I just want want to Courtney Valenti's a really amazing film executive.

I just want to make sure that the slate next year is just moving in the general direction of, you know, if not Christian, then at least pre-Christian.

Yeah, it'd be lovely if they could get a Shallowmade project as well.

I just, I feel like that'll be important.

That's talk about wasting your prayers.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, God's not, you can't listen to everything all the time.

Yeah, I mean, really.

Pray for the big ones.

Pray for the most influential, world's most influential zip code.

No, thank you.

Perhaps we should wind this up because somebody, you know, when we were talking about, um obviously we've been talking about watching tv and cinema and then i when i went to see minecraft we thought that someone had a church yes in the cinema oh my god and now everyone's got every well a very nice person has written in pastor mark smith i i never know how to pronounce that pastor or pastor pastor i say pastor but i you know have to teach myself not to say glastonbury i mean i'm just

did you say glastonbury i've taught myself not to well i would hope so no i mean you know i i hate me more than anyone so don't don't worry about it i say uh kochea

so pastor mark Smith, he says, I pastor a church in an Odin here in Dublin.

We've been in the building since the pandemic.

Initially, the cinema reached out to us and other churches to see if we needed event space because they were struggling.

We've been meeting here ever since.

The cinema has been brilliant.

In fact, they're putting on the new animated movie King of Kings for us after our service this Sunday.

This is a win-win.

The only problem with God Live, as Richard says, is that the cinema is a crappy place to sing in.

It's like being in a cathedral with walls made of wool.

It's quite depressingly different.

That, by the way, is another great idea, a cathedral with walls made of wool.

I had a message from Frank Cotterell-Boyce, the brilliant children's writer and screenwriter, and one of the architects of the 2012 opening ceremony, all that stuff, proud Liverpuddy.

And he said there was a Liverpool cinema, 60s or 70s, called the JC, which is a very down-at-heel, which they essentially just turned into a Catholic confessional.

And it was open all the time.

He said, but they didn't take the screen or the seats out.

He said, so even now, sometimes he'll be in an Odeon and he'll genuflect when he gets to the end of the row.

Everyone loves a cinema.

Everyone loves the seats.

everyone loves the screen, everyone loves to pick and mix, show different things.

There's a rights issues, of course, there are, but there's people who can deal with that sort of thing, not me.

Then we might have to accept that the religious programming people have got there first, and it is actually a good idea.

Yeah, it's got to come.

I mean, just, you know, imagine whatever show you want to watch this week, you go, or just go out for a drink with your mates and go and watch eight episodes of Friends back to back.

All right.

On that note,

shall we go to a break?

By the way, can we talk about Easter very quickly?

Because I was watching The Apprentice, the final of The Apprentice this season, which I rather enjoyed.

I rather enjoyed the season of The Apprentice.

I mean, it is what it is, The Apprentice, but it makes me think that Easter, as a religious festival, it's like a religious festival that's been invented by a losing team on The Apprentice.

Oh, so about the resurrection of Christ?

Yeah, but what's the main thing about it?

Chocolate eggs is the main thing about it.

Okay, and when will we do it?

I mean, no one knows.

Ever.

No one ever knows.

However, it is four days.

Yeah.

And you can't knock it.

And you don't know when you're supposed to eat the eggs.

Yeah.

Anyway, all I'm saying is imagine that pitch.

Yeah, you've pitched enough for today.

Why do people change the break?

If you actually happen to be doing any adverts in the immediate vicinity of this when I've just gone over to the break, but yes, then you haven't pitched enough.

See you after the break.

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Oh, time jump.

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Welcome back, everybody.

Now,

last week,

the Nielsen figures came out, and we learned that Reacher on Amazon Prime is the biggest show on streaming streaming by about a million miles.

That's not a technical

actually, they do measure it in something even more stupid, which is billions of minutes viewed or something.

That's correct.

And it's a million miles ahead of everything else.

It is.

So we're going to talk a bit about Reacher.

At the end of this, I might go through the rest of the top 10, actually, because there's a couple of interesting little things to spot in there.

But Reacher, there's two people I want to talk about.

I want to talk about a man named James Grant.

And I want to talk about a man named Nick Santoro.

Now, James Grant is the birth name of Lee Child, the author of the Reacher novels, called himself Child.

He says he called it everything Lee Child says, he's so smart.

You just think, oh, you've, you've, because he says, oh, I call myself Child, so I sat between Agatha Christie and Raymond Chandler on the shelves.

And you think, no, you, no,

come on, Lee.

You said that afterwards.

No, he said he's called Lee Child because there was a thing, was it a Renault called Le Car?

Yeah.

And their family used to call it Lee Carr.

And every time they saw something with Le in front of it, they would pronounce it Lee.

And so his daughter, he used to call Lee Child and so he called himself Lee Child.

It's a good name.

It's short, really fits on the front of a book as well.

Now Lee used to work at Granada Television, was fired in the late 90s and thought,

God, what am I going to do?

So I thought I'll write a book.

And

28 years later is the biggest selling adult novelist in the world.

He starts his new book again.

I know if this is true, Lee.

He says, every year I start writing my new book on the anniversary of the day I was fired.

And you think, maybe you do.

Maybe you do, but what if you're on holiday or something, or like you've got the dentist on that day or something?

Can't you just write three words?

Then you've technically begun.

But anyway,

I like that as a sort of origin story.

That's why he's so brilliant.

Because even if those two things are not true,

he came up with it.

Now, he's, I try and write a book a year.

And it is, listen, it's not mining, but it's hard.

And he did 24 books in 24 years.

His brother now does them.

And he has, you'd be unsurprised to hear, got huge properties in Wyoming, New York, Sussex.

If ever you talk about anywhere, he's got a house there.

You know, flies around the world on private jets and all this stuff.

But every attempt to turn Reacher into a huge hit on the big screen hadn't really worked.

There'd been very subordinate attempts.

And then most famously, they did make a Reacher film, Tom Cruise.

Jack Reacher, wasn't it?

Jack Reacher, the film was called.

And Tom Cruise played Jack Reacher.

And it is one of those things that, you know, you can absolutely mess about with source material.

But the key thing about Reacher is he's six foot five.

Yeah, he really is.

He's like just omni-competent and amazingly brilliant at everything.

And Tom Cruise is amazingly brilliant in lots of ways, but he is not Jack Reacher.

The name Reacher, by the way, do you know where that comes from?

No.

Lee is also

very tall.

Not as tall as me.

but who is?

And in the supermarket once,

he reached up and got something for somebody.

And his wife said, oh, if you ever do lose your job, you'd be a very good professional reacher.

And he thought, oh, reacher would be a good name.

But it's brilliant.

It happened to me where

there was a woman in Waitrose

and she said to me, oh, so could you reach the sugar from the top shelf for me?

And I said, of course, I got it for her.

And she said, can I get anything for you while I'm down here?

Oh, my God.

That is the most perfect Waitrose interaction ever.

Yeah, isn't it?

That's just, yeah.

So he wrote all of these novels, all of which are extraordinary.

They had lots of, you know, adaptations that didn't quite work until a man called Nick Santoro came along.

And Nick Santoro is the guy behind the Amazon Prime version of Reacher.

We're now on season three.

I was having a big discussion with some very, very...

funny actors and writers who

weren't enjoying it.

And

I love it.

And then lots of other actors actors and writers joined in and say they loved it as well.

So

it is what it is.

Some people will say, and that the criticism of Reacher is that, by the way, he doesn't say much, which is I sort of love as a sort of leading character, but that you know,

it's towns that can't deal with their own problems.

And he comes in and he's fixes it.

Yeah, yes.

But I mean, lots of things have been formulaic forever, but yes, and he, and sometimes people say that that's simplistic.

Yes.

And listen, Colombo was formulaic, but it was still the best TV show ever made.

No, I listened.

I love Reach.

And it's genuinely funny.

There's some very, you know, listen, there's a lot of, you have to look away sometimes during the fights.

But, you know, the funny bits are properly funny.

But Nick Santoro is an interesting guy.

He used to be a lawyer.

Didn't want to be a lawyer like most lawyers.

I know

some lawyers do.

And then he wrote

an episode of The Sopranos.

He wrote a spec script for The Sopranos, got called in.

His first ever published thing on television was an episode of The Sopranos, the the greatest television show ever made in season four.

He co-wrote an episode of that and then went on to do lots of episodes of Law and Order, which is a big breeding ground for American writers.

So he'd done something unbelievably blue chip in The Sopranos, and then he does this sort of telly that absolutely packs them in.

Yeah.

As you often say, the sort of TV that people actually want to watch.

So after that, his agent is going, well, look, you can do another season of Law and Order.

He said, I'd like to do something new.

I'd like to branch out.

And so what should I do?

So his agent gave gave him every single pilot from that season

in in America and the one he liked most was Prison Break he said I saw that and I thought that's the one that could run and then he came up with his own show called Scorpion which I've not seen but I'm going to tell you the pre-see it for you and I would love to watch this four super geniuses and a woman who has to sort of stand in the middle of them and teach them emotional intelligence.

It's like he described it as being like Big Bang Theory meets CSI.

So you think, well, well, that sounds amazing, doesn't it?

So he's always done that thing of what's the big mainstream thing, but how can we make it slightly funnier, which is why Reacher is such a huge deal.

But the most interesting thing Nick Santoro did in the middle of all of this.

And by the way, this is just to say that there are a million different ways to get into the world of having a big hit television show.

And everyone's way through is very, very different, particularly in the case of Nick Santoro, because the next thing he did was he invented the reality dating show Beauty and the Geek.

Yeah, which is beautiful woman and geeky guy to

team up and do challenges, ran for five seasons

in America.

They've done it a couple of times over here.

David Mitchell

used to be the VO.

So if you want to know the connection between Jack Reacher and David Mitchell, there it is in One Step.

Interestingly, they bought it back.

Do you want to know how social Morris have changed in the UK over the last 16 years?

So in 2006, so they get

usually a beautiful woman and a geeky guy, and then they describe them as something or other.

So in 2006, one of the teams, in fact, the winning team is Terry Marquez, page three girl, with John Gethin, theologian.

2022, you think, well, times have changed, surely.

And here's your team, Saskia Mastin, cheerleader, JB James, Lego creator.

Some things never change.

That's lovely.

Yeah, isn't it just?

He also

wrote a film called Long Shots, which was directed by Fred Durst, the least singer of uh Limp Biscuits,

yeah.

So he's had a hell of a career at Nick Centaura.

My goodness, that is eclectic, isn't it?

Eclectic.

That's the thing is, there's a million different ways into the business.

If you look at Craig Mason,

yeah, who did Chernobyl?

I mean, his previous credits have been scary movie three, scary movie four.

Yeah, I remember when Chernobyl came out, and people sort of went back through thinking, oh my God, I need to watch everything this guy's ever done.

And I was like, okay, maybe I don't need to watch Scary Movie.

But he's so amazing and it's just a question of you know and obviously now is um co-creator of the last of us but yeah so he's so incredible and it's so such a sort of testament to just keeping going and you learn so much and as people often say you learn more of the failures than you do of the successes well that's it so nick santori he'd had failures of his own things like scorpions didn't massively trouble the scorers but he'd done things like law and order which is which you know you just have to keep writing boom you have to keep churning them out and when you've got that skill set and then he finds something like reacher which feels it's absolutely absolutely in his wheelhouse because reacher is is very sort of macho but it's kind of funny reacher knows he's a joke reacher understands his own irony and nick santoro writes that very very well you know there's lots of you know very however much it might sort of feel like an episode of the a team it's like he's all four members of the a team in one reacher and nick santoro deals with that incredibly well they were lucky with him they were very lucky

yeah alan richson is i think he's a really interesting person in lots and lots of ways he's had a really

that is someone who waited, who was around for a long time and went through a lot of a lot of stuff.

And he's kind of, he's really interesting because he's very open about things and he's got a lot.

We talk about screen persona, and I'm sorry, Tom Cruise's screen persona just isn't, in my view, compatible with the character of Jack Reacher.

Yeah, Jack Reacher has to hide an awful lot all of the time.

Because he's obviously a very moral person and that sort of sense of not really fitting in.

And, you know, he, I mean, that is the whole point.

He is the wandering hero.

Yeah.

And

the stranger rides into town, that old fictional archetype of the hero, the Joseph Campbell archetype.

That is feature.

And I find him very interesting as an actor because of the way he talks.

I mean, he says things like, first of all, he's very Christian.

He says,

but he says, you know, he hates the church, lots of the established church in many, many ways.

He finds it disgusting.

He says really openly, you know, I think it's when you think about who's watching this show.

oh it's just ridiculous you know donald trump's like the worst person in the world he's a rapist and a criminal and i can't believe that the you know Christian Wright has sort of pretended that he's one of their people he says I'm bipolar he says oh yeah of course I take testosterone how do you think I you know I mean it's amazing that he's a very sort of candid yeah candidly troubled I mean he's very he's he's such a perfect fit and

he is very very tall he's not he's like he's actually sort of six foot two which is basically a giant in television terms you know with president company accepted um but in general you know he would he can, this is why he conducted all of them.

He's super ripped though.

Whenever, I love it, whenever he takes all his clothes off, which he does sometimes.

Which he has to do once an episode for various reasons.

Yeah, well, he's only ever, he's only got one set of clothes, he's got one set of clothes and a toothbrush.

But I love it when he gets clothes off, he's always got these slim black pants on, and there's always a woman around.

The woman is literally just going, they're always just going,

just have to slightly look away and just go, okay.

It's like you can't stare directly at the sun.

Yeah.

But it is hugely successful.

And again, we mentioned this before when we talked slightly about it in the context of various other shows.

You don't read one million articles about it.

It's not all over everywhere.

You don't see it, and yet it just is miles and by far and away the most watched thing.

Yeah, by a million miles.

And they're doing a spin-off, which unsurprisingly, Francis Neely, who was the private eye who used to be in his army unit, they're doing a spin-off with her as well, which I imagine would be an enormous hit.

But yeah, so the biggest show on streaming in America.

And should we go through the rest of the time?

I just wanted to sing the praises of Nick Santora there because I think sometimes when you see a show like that, everyone can talk about Adam Richard, and everyone can talk about Lee Child.

And sometimes it's so many things that go from page to screen don't work.

And you get someone like Nick Santora and it's just impressive what he's done, the apprenticeship he served.

And then he goes, right, this

I've got this one.

All those things contributed to

this is for me.

So in the rest of that top 10, I'll pick up a couple.

You might pick up different ones.

Family Guy is number two.

Well, I thought Family Guy was tied with bluey it's yeah but i think it's just on is it just over yeah i mean that's well family i mean that says a lot well it says a couple of things the reason family guy is there well lots of reasons it's huge but there's there's a lot of episodes because they as you say they do it per minute um viewed and it's you know billions and billions and billions and the streamers have just in the same way that the streamers have just worked out that they can schedule things at particular times of the week and the streamers have worked out they can put adverts in their programs the streamers are just working out it would be great to start having returning series with lots and lots of episodes in it, which, of course, was the

network business model forever because they're seeing, if you've got Family Guy, Gunsmoke, which hasn't been on since the 60s, recently went into the streaming top 10, Gunsmoke, because there's 400 episodes.

And if you get hooked on it, you just keep watching forever and ever.

So one of the big new calls they're having now is bring us returnable series, bring us things that can come back, bring us things where we can do 13 episodes and that are episodic and that are set somewhere and that

there's kind of cost effective for us to do.

And it is, they are literally step by step.

Yeah, bring us network television libraries.

Turning into network television.

Exactly that.

Well, because they're absolutely eating through the libraries of these things.

And we'll all, you know, in the same way we all, you know, we still listen to the Beatles.

We're still going to be watching Friends in 30 or 40 years' time.

But you do slightly have to keep, you know, putting new things into the pool.

So I thought that was interesting.

Yeah, Bluey, almost, almost identical with Foundry Guy.

It's incredible, isn't it?

Again, money for making programs for kids is

a huge deal still.

The White Lotus was at four, which I think is, that is huge.

I remember just before the season started, we were saying to each other, is a White Lotus sort of big enough that we might even do it before it's actually on air?

And the answer before, you know, lots of these shows that get lots of buzz, they're not actually that high rating.

And lots of things on HBO, which get a huge amount of buzz and a lot of awards, don't actually rate very highly.

But the White Lotus, this is a has just completely tipped over now into some sort of kind of massive phenomenon that it should be up there at four.

Because, yes, by the way, it gets an unbelievable amount of coverage because people just write about it.

It gets free advertising all the time because people write about feuds between cast members or, you know, oh, this is broken every taboo or whatever it is that you get this constant, constant free kind of media coverage, which you don't get for Reacher, you don't get for all these other things.

But it's interesting that that has now gone, that's gone stratospheric.

And in the rest of the top 10, there's things like 1923 which is um which is one of the taylor sheridan shows moana 2 is up there and moana 2 is really the biggest thing it's just per billion minutes but you know it's there's there's only one of them um love is blind is the only reality show up there but number nine on this list number nine in the top 10 number 10 is severance by the way and number nine on this list now this is america is a big country it's like it's like it's like the big entertainment capital of the world uh it's absolutely enormous in every way number nine on the list adolescents Yes.

Wow.

Well, that, again, once something becomes a sort of cultural phenomenon and the controversy or

the discourse of it all just takes on a life of its own, then

and I thought that, you know, once you start that, it's so propulsive, you'll continue with it.

So

to get people into that is kind of phenomenal.

But it was like that with Baby Reindeer.

Suddenly everyone had a view on this thing and you sort of feel like you have to watch it.

And if it is sufficiently propulsive, and Baby Reindeer was sort of helped by in lots of ways, I think, by the fact that you could just binge it really quite quickly because whatever it was, seven, half hours, or some of them were a bit longer.

And the same with adolescence, you couldn't take your eyes off it once you were in.

So but again, if you're if you're Netflix, it is all well and good and adolescence is all well and good.

But if you can have an adolescence where you can do eight episodes and then you can do another eight and then another eight and another, that's that's that's the real dream.

I mean, severance, you can sort of, they, they can keep kind of slightly going back to where they were.

But, you know, reach a you can do episodes of reacher forever until you know adam richen says no to it so it's that thing of it's great having these sort of um you know real marquee shows that everyone's talking about but if you can have a marquee show that everyone's talking about and it can come back and back and back and back that's the business the the the uh the streamers are now in if you go see any streamer that's the thing they're looking for they're not looking for some big thing that they can put a massive star in and it runs for four episodes and it costs more than three movies put together they are saying bring me a big star but in the same way that used to sign him up for seven seasons in sitcoms in the US and drama series, give us a show and we'll tie the star in for a number of seasons.

And that's the thing I think that's going to change massively in Netflix.

Can I say one final thing about

Lee Child?

Yes.

I've talked before about how I name my characters.

He names so many of his characters after Aston Villa players.

It's amazing.

In his very first book, The Kidd Flaw, which is great.

If you've not read Jack Reacher, you really can start from the very beginning, The Kidding Floor.

But in in there, he's got Mayor Thiel, who's named after Sean Teal, the Aston Villa player.

Even in the second book, he's got Paul McGrath, which is a direct name.

He's got a character called Milosevic, which people assumed was named after the war criminal Slobodan Milosevic, but was named after Savo Milosevic, the Aston Villa striker.

He's got Skimeka, he's got Wyth from Peter Wyth, Gary Shaw, he's got Car Boney, he's got a character called Graham Taylor.

So yeah, he knows loads and loads of his characters after that.

But as so often, we save the very best, the very biggest stories till last.

Now, an awful lot of things have happened since this podcast began.

The world has changed in lots of ways politically, in the world of entertainment.

We live in a slightly different world than we did way back when.

But I think of all the things that have ever happened, this story might be the biggest.

Yeah, and I mean,

why wasn't it on the front pages of a lot of places?

Catch up, guys, because Glenn Powell has launched a sauce brand.

Let me tell you what he'll do you, Richard.

It's called Smash Kitchen.

He'll do you.

He'll do you a yellow mustard, a Dijon mustard.

He'll do a ketchup.

He'll do you a hot honey ketchup.

Hot honey

an American barbecue sauce.

Your stripper name.

He'll give you an American barbecue sauce, a hot honey barbecue sauce, mayo, and spicy mayo.

And I'll tell you what he'll do, Richard, which is what makes this interesting, is that he will sell it via Walmart at an affordable price.

None of that will cost you any more than $4.79, and some of it will have cost as little as $2.

Now,

sorry, did we go to Weberts?

Yes.

No, none of this is sponsored, but although with Glenn, if you do want to sponsor, please, please get in touch.

Send us some sources.

Just anyway, get in touch.

You have to really just make sure it's sealed before you send it over.

You don't want, you don't want.

Well, I'm sure that he will have taken care of every detail, Richard.

Now, this is selling through Walmart, which I think is really interesting.

And I'll get into that in a minute, but because lots of celebrities have got artisan, this and that as brands, haven't they?

You know, if Brooklyn Beckham does a hot sauce and he has done one, you know, specially curated in it.

Yeah, he's got a hot sauce, you know.

I'm not a hot sauce guy.

I'm on, oh my God, I absolutely love hot sauce.

Yeah, yeah.

I have many, many hot sauces, but but yeah,

I have many, many hot sauce.

But this is the one I want most, by the way.

I like Woodward and Bernstein.

Now listen.

Okay, so he had a big launch party and he had it in, you know, in Beverly Hills or wherever it was in Hollywood.

And

they had lots of sort of fancy celebrities went along and they had a French fries station, but whatever.

So they did all the sort of glitzy side of it.

And they had various, you know, Gwynis Palcho unboxed someone, whatever.

It's organic, this thing.

Actually, DiCaprio was there, I saw.

DiCaprio.

Yeah.

I mean, that's, I mean, you know, you've, you know, you've made it in Hollywood if you do with sauces.

Tell them a cartoon.

I mean, I think it's just like random famous people in town that night.

But do you think about the stuff DiCaprio must get invited to?

Yeah.

I mean, it must be sort of non-stop.

He's got something, Richard.

I'm telling you, he's got something.

Powell.

Yeah.

Yeah, he sort of has.

Now, so, okay, why has he done this?

Now, I, I've again, because his food is too brand.

They've all, well, yeah, no, he's got a backstory.

Like, you know, we may,

you always have to have the backstory.

We all made sauces growing up.

My sister on Mighty Man, my own, I made my own hot honey ketchup at seven years old.

We slab the sauces on everything.

You know, he's the family, we're all there.

So his backstory is, I come from a family that you sauced.

That we made lots of sauce, yeah.

Okay.

Look, it's, it's, it's, will this do and it will do.

Yes, it will.

Because I put a lot of vinegar on my chips, and I've, I've yet to release a wine range.

Well, marketeers, please get in touch.

Richard would like to partner on a vinegar, on a vinegar range.

Sarsens, come and get me.

Yeah.

Big Sarsens will be after you.

Now, listen, but he, anyway, but what he's really saying with this is, of all the things that you do, I mean, obviously people do luxury things all the time or they do high-end alcohol brands or do they partner with things all the time, celebrities.

This to me is different, not just because it's Glenn Powell.

But what he's saying is, you know,

I'm from the great state of Texas.

We love barbecue.

I'm for everyone.

everyone yeah i am at a price point everyone can afford yeah still talking about the sauce i think yes uh i'm a price point for red state and blue once again those very helpful sydney sweeney romance rumors i see have you know reanimated yeah can't believe it myself however however again the red state king and queen they were like and we're for everybody and i what i think about this is really interesting is that it's mass produced it's for walmart he said my long-term intention is to change every kitchen staple

you're an actor but anyway, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter.

It's 2025.

They have to all talk like this.

But also, that's why I went into acting.

Yeah, but you know, nothing's going to cost more than four or five dollars.

But he said, no one in our country is more than 10 minutes away from a Walmart and it's almost 30% of the grocery market.

Again, he is an actor, but we all talk like this in the year 2025, which I sort of love.

What he's saying is, I'm a mass-produced mainstream star because he does want to get back.

Remember, I always tell you that Glenn Powell wants to get back to

Expendables he was in, Expendables 3, when he was with all the guys, and they're all saying to me, Oh, no, this is what it's like being a movie star in the 90s.

It's like, he can't believe it.

He wants to tunnel his way back to that level of kind of mass appeal.

So, Glenn Powell is this source, Richard.

I suppose what I am saying, in lots of ways.

But I'll tell you what, it reminds me because it's such a sort of direct callback to it.

Also, so much of the things he does are sort of, you know, that character he in Top Gum Maverick when he's sort of trying to, you know, basically sort of trying to do a, not a simulacrum of Val Kilmer, but a bit of one.

and then this one newman's own sauce remember paul newman yeah this is a this the story of newman's own sauce is quite interesting he started it with a writer called a e hotchner who was a who was hemingway's biographer and they one one christmas they like in some barn that paul newman they thought well we was constantly talking about salad dressing we'd make it we'd bottle it for all our friends constantly talking about salad yeah hotchner's very funny about it it's like he would ring me the whole time just wanted to talk about salad dressing i was like we've got to do something with this anyway so they they make this sauce they give it to some friends, everybody loves it.

They keep talking about it.

And he's like, okay, let's, let's think how we do this.

Martha Stewart sets up a sort of blind taste test with proper judges.

It's all done like by the book.

Everyone puts this Newman's own sauce, which is a salad dressing, I think the first one they do, first.

And then apart from two, who put it as second.

So they're like, okay, fine.

So they become a company that day.

They make a million in their first year.

Newman didn't want, Paul Newman didn't want his face anywhere on it, if you've actually seen the bottles of it, because it was a mass-produced item.

Again, this has been, it went into every american american supermarket and he was and he was like a proper big a-list at scarcity i mean unbelievable but he and one you know one of the great movie stars but he hated what he called noisy philanthropy so he said i don't want to be on this and he didn't even want them to put 100 of profits which it's still that they still all go to charity oh do they okay i don't know i don't i smash kitchens profits the whereabouts of them have not been specified so i think they perhaps go to glenn power and his business partners but anyway fair enough that's a traditional way to do business but I get it.

But even back then, they were inventing all the stories on the packaging.

So there was a thing that he said,

there was organic pretzels, and it said,

my daughter, I had to forfeit my house to my daughter when she came up with a better.

I said, you couldn't come up with an organic pretzel.

And she did.

And I had to give her my house.

And the daughter's like, yeah, no, that's not true.

But and then he said, some of them were stupid.

They were like, I bought this spicy pasta sauce back myself from hell.

Yeah.

So there were once I-I remember for my book, The World Cup of Everything, I was doing chain restaurants and I was looking at a Frankie and Benny's.

I love doing things like that.

And the Frankie and Benny's menu is all kind of, and Francisco and Benedicto came over from Napoli in the 1920s and I sort of looked them up and it was established in Leicester in 1995 or something.

Okay.

Yeah.

Tell me actually what.

Tell me, I'd like to know a lot more about Jack Daniels Hollow than is on the posters.

Anytime I'm signing on a tube platform and I read about it, like, I'm like, yeah,

I'd love to visit.

It'd be like a horrible facility.

Yeah, every brand should start.

It was 2021 when two venture capitalists had noticed that Tequila was doing particularly well.

And they thought, how can we elbow into this market?

It's that sweet sip in private equity.

Yeah, well, okay, but Glenn Powell is the source.

This is what I'm trying to say to you, that he is trying to be a mass market.

So I find it absolutely hilarious that of all the, and also just that actors have to talk like that nowadays, which I just find genuinely hysterical.

But do you think, shall I tell you why I think it is?

Because back in the day, they could be paid $20 million a movie.

Yeah.

Right.

And Glenn knows that because he's gone on the Expendables 3.

And what do you think?

He's on a movie 8?

Yeah.

Something like that.

So he's got to think, how do I make $12 million a year?

I'm just literally thinking, I'm in a business where it used to be I would be paid $40 million a year.

I'm currently being paid $18 million a year.

So I feel $22 million.

Yeah, but he sells it.

He sells it.

I believe every single word about this story.

He's from the great state of Texas.

Yeah.

Heard of it.

He's not part of Hollywood.

All of it actually contributes to the same overall brand.

So whoever is Glenn Powell's sort of brand supremo, and there'll be about 50 of them on a team.

That's another thing.

You've got to pay those people.

So whoever's creating the world of Glenn Powell.

It was around about 2023 when three brand consultants working for Glenn Powell had the bright idea of the creative artist agency, one of them, you know, and they go, Glenn, please, is it any story about source from your childhood?

Just anything at all?

We go, I think once I mixed up a a couple of sauces at home and I got in trouble.

Yeah, so you invented your own sauce.

I had a few sachets.

I guess so.

Exactly.

Yeah, occasionally I would put mustard and ketchup like from the same thing on the same burger.

So you made sauces.

But his aim is quite simply to change every single kitchen staple.

And they're going to have others.

There's going to be more.

I am here for every second of this rollout across Walmart and hopefully across the Atlantic Ocean.

Actually, I'm going to America in early June and I'm going, if you don't think I'll bring you back to Ben Powell sauce.

Yeah, I'm going to New York and I'm sure.

Will we have it?

Will it be available bicoastally?

I'm not sure because it's available in Walmart, but I'll see I can find one in Manhattan.

By the way, like they're going to let you in.

Yeah.

Have you any recommendations?

I do.

Interior Design Masters has started again on BBC One with Alan Carr and Michelle Ogundahin.

And it's just a well-made show where someone gets kicked off every week, but you get to see lots of interior design and you can go,

That radiator is absolutely going to see you on Michelle's sofa.

I'm so sorry.

It's a really lovely bit of TV, the sort of of thing that the sort of thing we're going to miss in a few years' time.

So let's enjoy it while we can.

Thank you very much.

It was a lot of fun.

Thank you.

It was lovely.

We will be back with a questions and answers episode on Thursday.

And also, if you're a part of our membership club, which you can join by signing up to therestersentainment.com, we have part two of our two-part series on the island of Dr.

Moreau, one of the most catastrophic film productions of all time.

The first episode was so ridiculous.

I can't wait for the second one.

If it was so ridiculous, I think we're putting a little two-minute teaser at the end of this episode.

If you keep listening, you might have to listen through some ads, but it's

a couple of minutes of a free island of Dr.

Moreau material.

Lunacy, pure lunacy.

Other than that, we will see you on Thursday.

See you on Thursday, everyone.

See you on Thursday.

Anyway, the ultimate costume that Brando ends up wearing in this is one of the most iconic, ridiculous costumes you'll ever see committed to celluloid.

But actually, once he commits, they think, oh, hang on, Marlon Brando's doing this.

He's this Richard Stanley guy.

We don't really care.

So they try and, behind Richard Stanley's back, they offer it to Roman Polanski, obviously, who is living in Europe because he can't go back to the United States because he's been convicted of statutory rape.

But, you know, this is...

Harleywood.

Yeah, Harley.

Yeah, fugitive.

He's a safe pair of hands.

But Richard Stanley finds out about this and he thinks, okay, he is clever.

So he thinks, I can see the only way I can get this to happen because it's all about Marlon Brando is if Brando likes me.

So he says, I want a face-to-face meeting with Marlon Brando.

And he also...

Just from the neck up.

Yeah, just from the neck up.

And he also gets a warlock.

to place a protective spell over this project.

That's such a good thing.

As I say, Richard Stanley is, yeah, I know.

I mean, you do that for every series of house of games anyway, but back in those days, it was relatively innovative.

Anyhow.

So Stanley gets to go meet Marlon Brando.

They sit down and he sort of charms him and he says, by the way, Wells did say that he didn't base Dr.

Moreau on Colonel Kurtz, blah, blah, blah.

He based him on this explorer, the South African explorer, Henry Morton Stanley, which reveal Richard Stanley is the great grandson of.

Brando's like, all right, this is destiny.

Okay, fine, fine.

That's clever.

It'd be amazing if he wasn't.

Yeah.

Yeah, what a play.

But Brando's like, okay, that's it.

I will do it with this guy and no one else.

So anyway, we should talk about the warlock just briefly briefly because I said something about a warlock and then I just moved on.

Now the warlock, Richard Sandy's mother is very into witchcraft, the occult, all that sort of stuff.

Now Edward James Featherstone, aka Skip, not a classic warlock name, but maybe what do I know?

Skip the warlock.

Yeah, he practices something called invisible mending, which is not the same thing, they'll charge you a lot of money to do some actual what I would regard as witchcraft for making mending a hole in your jumper or something.

You wouldn't know it had ever been torn.

No, but Polanski is off the project.

So are you saying that the spell didn't work?

I don't know.

I'm just making connections.

As they say nowadays, I'm just asking questions.

I'm just asking questions.

I'm just asking questions.

So, Richard Stanley's back on board, and it all looks good again.

Because of the warlock.

Because of the warlock.

Lying about being the great-grandson of Henry Morton Stanley.

Which, just for the benefit of our readers, he actually is.

He actually is.

Well, that wraps up another episode of The Wrestlers Entertainment, brought to you by our friends at Sky.

Now, what have you got on your must-watch list at the moment?

At the moment, White Lotus enjoying the the latest season.

Oh, it's such a treat.

Oh, my God, it's incredible.

It's so good.

A dark treat.

A dark treat.

The visuals are really great, and with your Skyglass TV, you'll be able to enjoy it all in its 4K glory.

And also, the built-in sound bar means you can also listen to it in its full, whatever the sound version of 4K glory is.

But it sounds immense, I'll say that.

It is indeed.

It brings everything to life and it really gives that cinema experience at home.

It feels like Jason Isaacs is in your house.

Like, sometimes I go downstairs, I'm like, Jason Isaacs, come on, man.

Cup of tea, please.

But he's not there.

No.

But for our listeners who want to experience this with Skyglass 2, visit sky.com to find out more.