Bake-Off, Boris' Book and Bad Movies

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Hello and welcome to this episode of the Wrestlers Entertainment Questions and Answers Edition. I'm Marina Hyde.
And I am Richard Osman. We're still apart from each other.
I cannot infect you.

Your COVID has not

passed. It has not cleared.
It hasn't cleared. I must keep you safe at all costs.
But by the way, we've got such a, someone wrote in something so nice.

Would you remember we were talking about AI commentary on local sports? You mentioned that.

Oh, yes, I was saying that the thing I would like, if AI can do anything, I would like it whenever you're walking through like a local park and there's a cricket match going on or a football match going on.

I'd love it if somehow AI could commentate on it for me.

I would sit and watch the whole game.

That was my AI dream. Well, this is like hearing that flying cars are reality because listen to this.
Chris Wright has written in and he says, I thought your listeners might like to hear this story.

I'm an expat in Singapore and my 10-year-old son plays cricket in a local competition here.

The competition is dominated by Indian kids and the games are live streamed on YouTube, which is great as as it allows my family to tune in live from Australia when he's batting and bowling.

A few weeks ago, I got a message from my brother asking who is providing the colourful commentary for the game, and I had to wander around the field looking for the commentator, who I couldn't find.

After making inquiries, it turns out that $50 of the match fee goes to a guy living in the middle of nowhere in India who commentates on four hours worth of local 10-year-olds playing cricket based on the live stream, a team sheet, and presumably some messages from the scorers.

It is a great service and well worth the money. That's so cool.
That's so cute, isn't it? Can you imagine that?

If you're a kid and you had all of that, I've watched an unbelievable amount of small boys cricket games.

And actually, Kieran used to do the scoring on a sort of WhatsApp for all the different parents.

Like, sometimes they can't, you know, if people are working and couldn't make it there, then there would be like this sort of group, and he would do some sort of commentary on that.

But this is of a different level, and I'm absolutely gripped by it. I now want to watch this specific version of it.
So, Chris, please get in touch and give me a link to that feed and I will watch it.

But I absolutely love the idea of this. It's literally, Richard, it's nearly flying cars.
Your dream is nearly a reality. It's nearly a reality.

I have a tiny bit of any other business.

A friend of mine was listening when you were talking about showing the shining to your nine-year-old child, and lots of people have told us about the inappropriate things they've watched with their children.

And a friend of mine, he should remain nameless, he said, when our youngest child was five, he and his wife often watched Grey's anatomy.

He said his wife watched it more than me, but that Grey's anatomy is one of those things we were watching. And sometimes if I was out, she would watch an episode without me.
And I was fine with that.

He says, so I come back in one day and his wife is sitting on the sofa with the five-year-old and

watching this thing. And my friend looks at these two characters on screen and says, God, I thought those two had split up.
And his wife said, well, it seems not.

And then his five-year-old daughter said, hmm, they're not really back together, daddy. It's just break-up sex.

And at that point, the five-year-old was no longer allowed to watch Grey's Anatomy.

Well, how precocious. In the most charming way.
In the most charming way.

I have a question for you, Marina, from Thomason, who has a question about Zack Snyder, the, let's say, controversialist director of things like Man of Steel, Justice League, a lot of the DC movies.

Anyway, Thomas's question is this. Do you think Zack Snyder is aware his fans are as toxic as they are and purposefully doesn't care?

Also, what effect will the success of James Gunn's Superman have, if any, on them?

I ask because I find it ludicrous that no matter what happens, they've decided on their version of reality that continues to change as facts change. Yeah, I mean, this is the sort of emblematic.

Well, it's not, well, I mean, there's so many toxic fandoms, but Zack Snyder, who's a big DC director, when he made Justice League for DC,

for four years there was a fan campaign release the Snyder cut.

I mean Zach Snyder is a

particular sort of guy and by the way

during the making up film something awful happened and his daughter took it her own life and it was a sort of and he does credit the fan movement with sort of bringing him back to filmmaking so it's a more nuanced story than it could be but I think in general, yes, I think he's definitely aware of how toxic it became.

And I think he probably got a lot of toxic stuff as well.

But he's a particular type of person.

He has an unproduced screenplay for the fountainhead, which I always feel is a character note in a director. The Ayn Rand book,

Beloved of

Tech Bros Everywhere. Yeah, beloved of Tech Bros Everywhere and terrible people.

He's personally, he's very, very obsessed with directors' cuts. He always does one.
Sometimes he does two directors' cuts.

I feel like.

So,

you know, that critics of whoever, ever, any studio ever are always just like, well, the director's cut is better.

You know, I would personally much rather sit through nine and a half hours of Heavensgate or whatever it is.

Zach Snyder does actually claim, I think, never to have seen the Warner Brothers theatrical release cut of Justice League. Same.

Like, did it? No, I have actually seen it, but I didn't see it in theatres.

But I think it's really interesting, as always with these things, if they're not doing it to you, then there is a sort of secret delight that they're kind of doing it in your service.

And will you explain who the fans are? And the

toxic.

They're a very toxic online

group of people who would just say, you know, I want to release his cut, release, and were kind of obsessed with it.

And like all of these things, I think they're sort of mirrored in those Star Wars fandoms who kind of went absolutely nuts about The Last Jedi and said,

Yeah, I don't know, that the character of Rey was a sort of terrible, perfect little feminist, that, and they completely hounded Kelly Marie Tran off social media completely.

And she was subject to sort of terrible racist and

kind of sexist bullying. I don't know.

A lot of critics nowadays feel that they're under constant siege from fandoms and that

fandoms take critical reviews as kind of personal attacks on them. And what I think all of this shows is, it's become so interesting.
You know, fandom has become such an identity.

Fandom has become, and to some extent, you know, and those old, you know, I have friends who before, way before it was cool, who would say to me, this is literally the most uncool thing you could do, would go to things like Star Trek conventions, would go to, you know, that was all uncool.

And then suddenly it's like, oh no, Comic-Con's very cool. All of these things have become cool.
And they've become much more mainstream to some extent.

But rather than being for kind of shy, nerdy, outsider-y kids who were quite nice, they have become places of huge aggression.

And that's one of the big stories of in fandom of the past decade or two is the idea of fandom as a kind of identity. It's part of identity politics.

And like all the rest of identity politics become very vicious. It's like a football team.

It's like having a team. Suddenly,

Star Trek fans can be Mill War fans. I totally agree with you, but I was thinking about this just when you were saying that.
I was thinking, but it's sort of like

factions within the fans of one football team.

And you can say, okay, yes, there are the people who think of themselves as the kind of OG fans, and then there are the prawn sandwich brigade, and they could, you know, there's some kind of friction between them.

But it's not really like this kind of internees in warfare, which is really odd because it's like you're this is these are battles between people who essentially supposedly love love the same fiction you know they love star wars or they love whatever and it becomes this real sort of it's but it's definitely a story that is something of the last decade or two um not even to um you know who loves who whose voice matters most who's purest who's purest um who's liked it longest who who's liked it in the right way um rather than feeling like it's a lovely kind of camaraderie, a brotherhood and a sisterhood that you all get swept up in because you basically like the same characters.

It's become like everything a battleground.

And I would say that the Snyder fandom was a particular example of that and a kind of like, and to anyone else, like any of these other purity spirals or anything like that,

within about a month or two of it running, to anyone else on the outside, it looks just completely deranged that people have gone this nuts about like a director's cut of a movie and yet and it's become bigger and bigger and as you always say those voices are just the loudest.

Most people who like Star Wars are not like this. And most people who like DC are not like this.
But

the loudest voices really have taken over. And it has become fandom in so many ways and in so many different strains of fandom have bizarrely become a form of identity politics.

Well, you have to be obsessional. You have to want to.
There are certain types of people who will spend eight hours a day on bulletin boards. And almost everyone in the world will not do that.

And there is something about your personality that if you are able to spend eight hours a day on a bulletin board, it says something about you. I loved this expression, a purity spiral.
Yeah.

Oh, there's some so there's some really interesting things about how purity spirals form.

And that there's actually an incredible sort of deep dive article about one in a n in a which I'll try and put into the show notes, about a knitting circle.

And how no, no, I mean, it's it's quite extraordinary, but it's it becomes so completely awful and it becomes caught up with all different types of identity politics.

And it's honestly just some people who got together and performed an online community because they like knitting. And it becomes beyond toxic.
It's really such an interesting, long, deep dive article.

I thoroughly recommend, and I'll put that in the show notes. Do you have any, have you ever been aware of like a like some like a sort of provisional wing of extremist Thursday Murder Club fans?

Not especially. It was interesting with the film that there were certain things that changed from the book that people got very exercised about.

But as far as i can see in in quite a fun way that it it seems to have been oh we we'd have loved this we'd have loved that i hope in the next movie they do this they do that and so yeah that that feels like quite a healthy enjoyable version of this but but to speak to the actual question to thomason's question do you think zack snyder is comfortable with that do you think actually it sort of it it feeds in to his brand and to and to the movies that he makes well as i said it's always nice when they're not doing it to you yeah and i've never seen him come out and say

this is absolutely disgusting don't do this in my name but as i also said if something so awful happened to him in his personal life it's probably not the number one priority is dealing with this particular aspect of something that he

to some mostly can't control um but i think you know i think it's very difficult for people you just anything you say to some extent just makes these things worse but as always when something quite fortunate is happening in your favor you have to really set step back and think yeah but what's the right thing to do here because otherwise as i say it can be just you know oh well i i won't get in the way of this thing that is singing my praises to high heaven well i've got a question for you richard about bake off outfits from sarah o'day i hope i've said your surname right sarah She's watching the new series of Bake Off and once again find myself screaming at the television, why are the contestants always made to wear the same outfit two days in a row?

We, the audience, know it's filmed over the two days, so they could have two outfits. Aren't they sweaty and covered in flour from the first day? Thank you, Sarah, for that question.

I could probably answer this myself, but the lovely wardrobe mistress on House of Games and lots of other shows I do and works with lots of on lots of big entertainment shows, Sharon Smith, works on Bake Off, and she does all the costumes and wardrobe, mainly for the talent.

So because, and she is, I love Sharon to bits, but she she loves having her voice out there.

She does it every time we used to do, like on pointless, if ever we did like an East Ender special, we would we would do like a little pre-titles tease on the square, and it would always be Sharon walking out of a house going, oyzando, I'm having your baby.

Uh, so I knew that Sharon would be delighted to turn us a voice note and tell us the exact answer to Sarah's question.

I will say this: I think in the history of this podcast, every single time someone has given us a voice note or filmed something for us, they always start by saying, hello, Marina and Richard.

I'll say this.

You can tell the sort of relationship we have that that is not how Sharon starts this, but she does have an answer to your question, Sarah. Hello, Marina.

In answer to the question regarding bakers wearing the same outfit for two days, no, we don't try and pretend that it's all filmed over one day.

There's clear parts where we sort of say, well done, bakers, get some rest tonight and we'll see you in the morning.

But they're kept in the same outfits pretty much because there's lots of interviews that are filmed across the two-day period and those interviews might be social media or they might be interviews that go into the show so it looks far smoother to have a one-hour show where everybody's in the same outfit rather than jumping in and out of different tops and distracting the viewer it's easier to keep them all in the same thing and they also do get messy for continuity if they make a mess on one day that mess is still there the next day on their tops unless it's something really drastic like our wardro department pretty much look after the judges and the presenters.

They don't really get too involved in the bakers unless something drastic happens.

Like say, for example, a mixer exploded and they got completely covered in cake mix, then we would obviously go into the rescue or their button fell off or their zip broke or something like that.

But other than that, they're just kind of left to it. They're just asked to bring nice, bright colours to wear underneath their aprons and off they go.
I hope that helps. That does help.

Thank you so much, Sharon. She'll be so happy to have her

voice on the podcast. But it is that thing, Sarah,

please don't scream at the TV. But if you are making a show like that, that you are making so many other things these days.

You're not just filming those two days, you are filming so many clips, social media clips, all sorts of things. Also, there might be something,

if you do an interview with someone on the first day and they say something, which actually would work perfectly on the second day, and suddenly you can't use it because they're wearing something different.

So as a producer, it doesn't make any difference to anyone that people are wearing different clothes, but as a producer, it just makes your life so much easier. in an edit.

It also has that thing of, especially early on in a series, if you are getting to know a whole series of different people and you're not quite sure who's who if they are wearing something distinctive

you notice them and remember them more easily whereas if they're suddenly wearing something else the next day there's a bit of our brain in the very early parts when we're not sure who people are where we get confused between people as well so it just makes everybody's life so much easier so if you're watching it again this is always the question if it is something that makes you scream at the television and it doesn't make any sense there will always be a reason.

There'll be a production reason why it's easier. And by all means, by the way, if anything else like that crops up, do ask us.
And we'll always be able to ask somebody, if not always, Sharon.

But I love that. I have a question here from Mark and James O'Moran about the Traitors Ireland.
And they said, my son and I are loving the first series of the Irish version of The Traitors.

It's really good if you haven't seen it. We've noticed that the round table looks the same as the one used in the UK version of the show.
Is it the same table? If so, how is it transported?

It is not the same table. There we go.
That was a nice, easy one. They made their own absolute copy because, again, on a TV crew, you are surrounded by these brilliant people who can make anything.

And it's absolutely cheaper to get one of those brilliant people to make an exact copy of something than to dismantle it in the castle up in Scotland, send it over to Ireland, dismantle it, and send it back.

So yeah, it is not the same table, but it's

a testament to the art of set designers that it looks exactly the same. That's a nice, easy one.
Right, everybody, shall we now proceed to a break?

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While the Who's of Whoville were laughing and eating, the Grinch from his lair sought to wreak havoc on their season. He thought, how do I ruin their holiday meals?

A plan sprang to mind, which he enacted with zeal. Del Pickle's seasoning on fries will make for a green surprise.
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Welcome back, everybody. Marina, a question for you from Darren York.
He asks, are films able to achieve box office success through a rage baiting, so bad it's good campaign?

Is that commercially viable? Oh, good question, Darren. In our imagination, we think that this has happened quite a lot.

But actually, normally that happens

after release. Things become cult classics and so on, and the audience finds them and embraces them, and they become

something that people kind of go back to. And they, you know, they become sort of, as I say, cult classics.
Funnily enough, if you've listened to our bonus episode on Rocky Horror, which

isn't bad, the Rocky Horror Picture Show, but there was a significant flaw in it, if you've listened to that episode, which lent itself to audience audience participation, which meant that it became that sort of a cult classic.

So

every now and then you get some that are absolutely deliberate and that they lean into it.

Fewer than you'd think. Lots of old B movies

became, you know, like sort of Killer Clowns from Outer Space, Attack of the Killer Tomatoes, but Sharknado, which was made by sci-fi,

that was marketed as in, even though that was, you know, relatively recent, it was marketed in the way of those old B movies, and the tagline for that was enough said.

So, that isn't that, I would say, is an instance where they definitely lent into doing it.

Um, now, one of the really interesting ones that people think was marketed as so bad, it was like was Snakes on a Plane.

When that came out, that was New Line Cinema, and when that, when, when it was announced, and people were like, sorry, Samuel Jackson, Al Jackson's going to be in a movie called Snakes on a Plane, you might remember it, like, it sort of blew up, and it became a sort of, you know, a meme and everything beforehand.

And fans were suggesting scenes and dialogue. The whole title was obviously very memeable.

Now, so Newline took the view that they were going to lean into that whole thing and they did include some of those suggested fan scenes and they did include, you know, and yet it lost money.

So that thing that you said at the end of the question, Richard, what you're saying, is it commercially? Do you ever really want to say that something's so bad?

You can code the language and kind of euphemize it. You might want to say, don't miss the madness, or see it while you still can't.
And there are films that sort of do that.

Everybody's talking about it. Yeah, everybody's talking about it exactly.
But you're not honestly saying that this thing isn't very good. It's just like, never do that.
It's really bad vibes.

So you might call it the ultimate midnight screening movie, or you might do anything you can to get audience participation.

A lot of them start out like certain ones, like, I mean, Cocaine Bear, that was, you know, everyone thought you can't make a movie called, I mean, Kerry Russell did that, but you can't make a movie called Cocaine Bear without everyone thinking this is obviously supposed to be bad.

And I'm not, you know, zombie strippers. I'm supposed to go, I need to go and see this because they're just making a joke about it.

Yeah, there was a movie that actually did surprisingly well, like a little tiny movie, it did surprisingly well for a horror comedy. There was something called the Velocipaster,

which I love.

And it's actually actually just a funny thing. What I quite like about it is this guy, this guy called Brendan Steer directed.

When he was at film school, he was like either NYU or the Tish, you know, he was at one of those New York skip film schools. And his phone

auto-corrected Velociraptor to Velocipasta. And he was like, well, I mean,

what's that film? What would that film? Sorry. Okay, fine.
I'll make that.

You know, a priest travels to China. He gets bitten by a radioactive artifact.
I've seen bits of this, but I haven't seen the whole thing. Oh, pasta, like pasta, like a

prince. Pasta, like carbs.
And he, yeah, no, not like, not, no, not that one.

Harder to personify. Anyway, and he turns into a dinosaur when he gets angry.

So, certain things like that, but I mean, that's a tiny little sort of, you know, independent sort of student thing, really.

Most of them start out serious. Even these things that are like unbelievably bad, like Tommy Wiso's The Room, that starts out serious.

They become more popular because they become part of memes. I personally don't think,

as I said, Sharknado is really the only one I can think of them saying, you know, enough said. But even that isn't saying,

what you're kind of saying is, like, there's a tornado of sharks, right? Come on, why would you not want to see this? So you can code it, but you cannot say, I don't, I don't think.

It's just why you are nonetheless getting people to leave the house and pay money to see something.

You're either deliberately setting out at the beginning to do something that catches a sort of kitsch aesthetic but once if you're doing something that isn't trying to do that it's very hard to turn that into money it's difficult to turn ironic watching into money i couldn't agree more try and make me a cult classic someone tell you you say go on go come up with a cult classic and you can have all the ingredients it's like someone saying to you oh my god i've read loads of self-help books i could do one of them you couldn't okay because your heart's not in it and you think oh i could do something so cynical it's really it's very very difficult in any kind of artistic project at all, or even a literary project or even a self-help book, to think, I'm that cynical, I can see all the elements of how they do this, and I can produce something like that.

Something gets in the way and you won't make something brilliant by accident, but you also won't make a cult classic. You'll just make,

nothing will,

your heart sort of has to be in it, which is why the things that do become cult classics, they were really definitely trying very hard.

And there's also that thing of, you say, oh, but me and all of my friends, we watch it. We just watch it and laugh at it.

So everyone I know, so this must be making money.

Mainstream culture does not do that. There is a part of our culture, and we are absolutely part of it, that will do that and will enjoy that.

But in terms of actually making big box office, you have to find the heart of culture. And the heart of culture does not ironically watch things.
No, you can't. You have to mean it.
I mean, obviously,

within a fiction, you have to mean it. Yeah.

Oh, God. Talking of cynicism, I'm so devastated to have to ask this question, Richard.

But I've got to ask you a question because Simon's written in to say, with the first anniversary of the release of Unleashed by Boris Johnson approaching, could you guys give us an update of how sales have gone and how that works commercially?

Yes, I will. So, yeah, we talked, we worked out that his advance had been two million pounds.

He was given two million pounds to write this book so and we gave a few updates on how it was selling but with now now it has settled so we know exactly what it's you know it's not still selling so i've looked into all the numbers this week and spoken to various people at various publishers about exactly what we think about who's made what's money i wish you hadn't had to do this but carry on well it's not all good news it didn't do terribly did not do it certainly most political memoirs absolutely disappear and it hasn't done that but it's a question of whether they paid boris johnson too much you'll be shocked to learn that they did so Boris Johnson we know how much he's made which is two million pounds that's his advance and then it's a question of

on top of that you hope to make royalties so I can tell you now for a fact he has not made royalties so he has not earned out that two million pound advance so since it came out it sold in hardback 150,000 copies which is not terrible it's not great you saw that in a week sorry

yeah it's not amazing and it's certainly not a £2 million advance level. I mean, it's not even close to that.
It's absurdly far away from a £2 million

advance level. So he sold £150,000 copies.
Now, one of the key things in this world is your average sale price. So when you look at the Nielsen ratings, they'll show you how many you sold.

Plus, they will show you your average sale prices. Almost all books are discounted.
Amazon will discount them quite heavily. So you'll see the average sale price.

Now, the average sale price for Boris's book, I think the recommended retail price is 30.

The average sale price is 17.

And sometimes, again, if you see that written about in the press, they go, oh, it's half price. And it's not.
It's put at £30 so that you can discount it and still be making money.

And £17 is actually a pretty good per-unit sale price. You look at some of the Freedom at Fadden books that are huge at the moment.
It'll have an average sale price of £4.30 or something like that.

But even for a hardback, £17 is not bad. So you multiply £17 by £150, you get somewhere around 2.5 million.
So the book in total has grossed 2.5 million in hardback.

You want to add in your audio and things like that as well. Let's say 3.5 million.
It's made.

The

publisher, who in this case is HarperCollins,

if a book makes 3.5 million, The rough rule of thumb is once you've taken out retailers and what have you the publisher will see back about half of that so they'll see back about 1.75 million now you've got to take all your costs out of that as well it's not like a movie but there are substantial costs so maybe that takes them down to 1.3 1.4 million something like that so they have paid boris johnson two million I'm going to say, and this is, again, not just my numbers, but various people I talk to, maybe they've made back 1.3, 1.4 million.

So they're losing 600,000.

They still have the paperback to come. They have overseas sales.

Neither of those are going to be enormous. Is he big in Japan? For this, but not so much.
Not so much. He's not like the Verosa.
He's not like the Velossa pastor.

HarperConnets say they've made money on this, but I've speaking to every single person I can from every single side of the business, no one could work out

how they have made money on it. So we talked they weren't serialization rights because Boris Johnson's got a you know his column with with the Daily Mail.
So over the over the

you know the lifetime of this book, it may well be that Harper Collins would be able to say, We will probably wash his face. We'll probably clear that to two million.

But this, this is not a book that is kind of they were hoping to sell half a million, for example.

You well, you say it's not like a movie, but it did have a he did do a Christmas advertising campaign for this book, which I

only remember because he was writing his naughty list in this advert. And on one of the pages, right at the top, he wrote Richard Osman

without any question, purely because of this. He always does that.
He lets you know that he's like, why are you showing weakness, Johnson?

You should have just pretended he'd never heard us talking about you. But

regrettably, he must have heard you. analysing his book sales and

he allowed it himself himself to reveal himself as being very upset by it.

Oh, listen, he's, I mean, he's right. As I say, he's made that two million, which he doesn't have to pay back, doesn't have to pay back a penny of that.

But certainly if he'd sold half a million, he would have made another,

what would he have made on top of that?

He would have made at least another million and a half plus every single sale of every single paperback for the rest of history. He'd be making money on.

At the moment, anytime anyone buys this book, he is not making any more money. So he's made a lot already, but he is not making another penny.
Harper Collins say they've made money.

I don't possibly see where they are.

I've heard this theory a number of times, but I cannot back it up. But I say it anyway, because I've heard it from a lot of people, which is

political memoirs tend to get massively overpaid for.

And I've always slightly wondered why, because you think, oh, at the end of, you know, when someone's memoir is out, they can no longer sort of do you any favours.

And HarperCollins almost always do the big political memoirs, certainly for people from the right.

And the thing I've heard a number of times now is that a publishing company might make a deal with a sitting politician while they're still in power for their memoirs after they're out of power.

And a politician knows that of the things they can cash in on when they leave power, one of the big ones is a memoir. That's one of the big sort of chunks of change that you can get.

You know, Boris knows there's this 2 million. And if you are pre-agreeing a deal with somebody while they're still in power, then actually

there is some sort of payback for you. You know, you do actually get advantage of that person owing you a favor because they're still in power.
I'm not saying that's what happened here, by the way.

I'm not saying that Harper Connors has ever done it. I'm not giving any specifics.
But certainly if you were to say, oh, by the way, at the point where you do leave power,

shall we pre-agree that you'll get a million pounds for your memoirs or whatever it is? And that sort of makes some sense because then you don't really have to make money out of it because

you've already got your money's worth in a different way. But this book has not sold terribly.

£150,000 hardbacks is a good sale if you had a half million pound advance. You know, then everyone's laughing.
Boris Johnson's making

royalties. Harper Collins are making money.

But if you pay somebody £2 million and you sell £150,000 hardbacks, then everybody is losing out apart from the person who was given £2 million in the first place.

I think that about wraps us up for today. Yeah,

it just.

Pleasure as always. A great pleasure.

We will return tomorrow with a really interesting bonus episode, I think, because it's about script doctoring, which is a sort of deliberately unsung part of the movie business.

But there's lots of interesting stuff about that.

People who have sort of flown in for a week just to punch things up and get paid a huge amount of money for a very small amount of time and usually have their names kept off the final script as well.

Yeah, it's fascinating and it always has been for like how many decades of Hollywood history. So that's for our members.

If you want to join and have ad-free listening and so on, it's therestisentertainment.com. Otherwise, we will see you next Tuesday.
See you next Tuesday.

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