CELEBRITY TRAITORS: Week Four Reaction

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Speaker 2 Hello and welcome to this special edition of The Rusters Entertainment with me, Marina High.

Speaker 1 And me, Richard Osman. Celebrity traitors reaction

Speaker 1 that's my reaction wow and and for the benefit of the people not watching on youtube i'm throwing my my hands up i mean it's a wow this is first of all it this is a huge triumph for the bbc and for what i'm sure you will tell me is the world of formatted formatted entertainment yeah it's lovely to have have a show like this that everybody is talking about every demographic is talking about the numbers are up around 13 14 million you know which is great it's like old school television And this is not some, by the way, resurgence of terrestrial TV, but you know, the decline will continue, but how lovely

Speaker 1 it can still punch above its weight every now and again. So we're down to five players.
Three faithful, two traitors. Yes.

Speaker 2 They finally got a traitor.

Speaker 1 Yes, it took them a while. Good one to get, though.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm amazed that Jonathan was able to stay in that long. Yeah.

Speaker 1 He played it

Speaker 2 really brilliantly. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think he has said since he didn't think he did play that well. He was hugely helped by the utter uselessness of the opposition.

Speaker 1 You know, again, we've said, and this series has been the proof of the thing, that it doesn't matter when you get the traitors out.

Speaker 1 And it really didn't, because actually when they got Jonathan out, in some ways it was the perfect time to do it. It's sort of post-recruitment.
I mean, you couldn't really recruit.

Speaker 1 If they'd got Kat or Alan out straight away afterwards, then this would be an absolute slam dunk for the Traitors.

Speaker 1 They could have gone through the whole first bit of this down to seven people without a single traitor going and absolutely one. Because that's what you can do.

Speaker 1 Just leave it, just, you know, when you're down to seven, half of them are traitors. And, you know, traitors give better clues to other traitors than faithfuls.
And it just goes to show that actually,

Speaker 1 I mean, listen, we love the show, we love the format, but it was meaningless that they went through all of that terrible stuff. at the beginning.

Speaker 1 If they had just been able to follow through, if they'd just perhaps gone with Joe's idea that Alan should go next, that's the big issue is that terrible, terrible roundtable getting rid of Kate.

Speaker 1 I mean, that was after everything they've done wrong, that's that's just the biggest mission.

Speaker 2 Can I just say something? When I was growing up, this reminded me, when I was growing up, I had, you know, the original version of Guess Who, the board game, right? Yes.

Speaker 2 And the original version of Guess Who, the board game, had five women in it, okay, and like maybe 24 tiles of people, right? So that was ridiculous.

Speaker 2 So if you ask the question, you know, is it a woman? And the answer is yes, you put down 80% of the board, right?

Speaker 2 So when they were sitting there in that round table last night, okay, if they really did want to get a traitor, and obviously some of the people at the table do, then what they should have said to themselves is, the only people we can vote for here are Kat or Kate Garraway, okay?

Speaker 2 You are on a prime time public service broadcasting show. Do you think that they've made the traitors three men? So, okay, one of these women has to be a traitor.
Vote for one of them.

Speaker 2 It doesn't, you know, it almost doesn't matter which, but vote for one of them. Obviously, not if you're cat or

Speaker 2 but everyone else at that table should have thought, I've got to vote for a woman here because realistically, one of these two, I'm at least on the 50-50, which given our track record has been so appalling.

Speaker 2 Vote the man. Now, representation has changed in that way.
So you would know that if you thought about it, you would know.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and there, as you say, there's almost no women left. Well, now there's one woman left, and she is a traitor, and that is Kat.
So, we have to talk about the position that everyone is in now.

Speaker 1 And it seems to me that the person in the worst position is David. I don't see any gameplay whereby David was.
Well, I do, but we will get to it. We have Joe and Nick, who at the moment seem solid.

Speaker 1 They're going to vote as a block. We have Kat and Alan, who are solid, and they are going to vote as a block.
for sure.

Speaker 1 David, let's imagine, teams up with Joe and Nick, in which case, probably the Faithfuls will win. If David decides to team up with Alan and Cat, then for sure the Traitors will win.

Speaker 1 But either way, when you get down to that bottom three, so let's say they vote off Alan and Kat. Let's say they work it through.

Speaker 1 Nick, Joe, and David in that last three.

Speaker 1 There's nothing to be gained by keeping David in. There and obviously if Kat and Alan get through to the last three, they have nothing to be gained by keeping David in.

Speaker 1 So David, I think it's almost impossible for David to win this unless, this is the only situation I can think of, unless Nick's beginning of suspicion against Joe Marla goes further and that little coterie is broken up.

Speaker 2 Okay, I agree with you. I would like to say something about Joe Marla.
Okay, at the beginning he said to me, oh, I reckon he's going to go to pieces later on, right?

Speaker 2 Love Joe Marla. I think that there's been a complete lack of respect.
And

Speaker 2 I find it very interesting within this game as I said last week there is a sort of class-based thing or intellect as class as there's a sort of weird deference in this version of the game where you know he kept saying to David you know as an intelligent man you know being very intelligent man by the way David God bless my goal hanger stable mate he's absolutely brilliant he is incredibly intelligent but he has not played this game incredibly intelligently and I don't believe he's still there he's still there yes but as we've said many times before there is a benefit to not playing the game well because he has never been perceived as the threat.

Speaker 2 And there is always a benefit to that.

Speaker 2 And, you know,

Speaker 2 if you look at who he's voted for,

Speaker 2 if he gets to the end, he can maybe plausibly deny that this was a plan all along.

Speaker 2 But he's voted for Nico, Stephen, Tyre, Stephen, and Nick. Okay.

Speaker 2 Okay, you want to tell me that, okay, maybe he's playing 9D chess.

Speaker 2 Okay, Joe Marla has had the best idea, which was that they're never going to, in actually really intelligent form of selection, they'll never put Stephen and Jonathan both as traitors because he

Speaker 1 but they will put one of them.

Speaker 2 But they will put one of them.

Speaker 2 He's had the best idea. He's pursued Jonathan throughout and he's understood how to do it.

Speaker 2 I really think that in the normal civilian version of this game, Joe Marla would be a much more significant sort of

Speaker 2 rallying person.

Speaker 2 And I tell you why, because that he's, you know, the rugby player and he puts his back like physically into the task, but he would be seen as a natural authority figure because of sport and because

Speaker 2 these are not sport people, Richard. Okay, they got rid of the two sport people.

Speaker 2 You and I both know who do you think the biggest sports fans around recent round tables are, okay?

Speaker 2 There aren't any, yeah, and there isn't that natural, which in wider society, you would have much more deference to someone like Joe Marla, and his clarity and his simplicity of purpose and his actual leadership would be acknowledged more.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 1 he has no fear of upsetting

Speaker 2 important people. Among this art crowd, Richard,

Speaker 2 with their shiny flaws and their end-to-end feelings.

Speaker 1 What do you think Joe Marla would make of you if you were on that show? Do you think he'd think you were a hyundai?

Speaker 2 Well, it depends what I was. I think he's quite good at seeing through people, I think.
I wouldn't like to have that gaze turned upon me.

Speaker 1 I have a little message from Joe that

Speaker 1 he sent this morning.

Speaker 4 What?

Speaker 2 Have you actually?

Speaker 1 Yeah, lesson.

Speaker 5 Hi, Marina. It's Joe Marla here.
I just wanted to say that you and Richard are both big dogs, but

Speaker 5 you are my absolute hyunda. All the best.
Big love.

Speaker 4 Goodbye.

Speaker 1 Absolute Hyundai.

Speaker 2 I'm going to listen to it like no more than 450 times.

Speaker 2 I love you, Joe Marla.

Speaker 2 That means a lot.

Speaker 1 But no,

Speaker 1 he's played an incredible game.

Speaker 1 He dropped the ball a tiny bit he was he was the one that's saying oh but don't forget traitors often drop a little parting shot and you know so he said david so he's looking at david and david had not thrown jonathan under the bus so he would have no reason but jonathan had sat in the back of the car with joe yeah and said to him if it was me i'd be looking at alan and I'd be looking at yes he did he did it so he did throw the other traitors under the bus but he did it actually in a bus Joe was there when it was done on wednesday's episode joe finally said i'll tell you what if i'm wrong vote me out tomorrow it's like wow how have we got this far in this version of the game before i hear that one

Speaker 2 you hear that in like episode two in the normal version okay stick it all on the line and say it and i i think it was quite helpful but i i'm a big fan of his and i think he's had incredible clarity all the way through i think he's a brick he reads things brilliantly.

Speaker 1 I think if Nick can continue, because he's also built that, you know, he's trusted Nick and understood that Nick has something that he doesn't have. And I think Nick hasn't.

Speaker 2 I think he hates everyone else in the game, which I quite like. You can believe it, though.
You want to believe that secretly he hates all these people. He loved Joe Wilkinson and he likes Nick.

Speaker 2 And that's it, right? And I love that. If there feels like there's genuine niggle, it's probably fake, but I just, there's something about it that's just like, I've got no time for any of this.

Speaker 1 But if Nick holds the line, I think Joe will hold the line. I think Joe will hold the line with Nick.
I think. I do too.
If Nick holds the line with Joe, there's your two winners right there.

Speaker 1 If Nick gets inside his own head, because this is the thing about being clever, is sometimes you can be too clever. Nick will be thinking, yes, but if that were true, then this is true.

Speaker 1 But if that were true, then this is true. And if that were true, then the double bluff and the triple bluff would be this, and that means X, it must be Joe.

Speaker 1 That's what I would be doing at this stage of the game. I'd be thinking, what's the cleverest thing I can think of? Why don't I do that?

Speaker 1 Whereas actually, the cleverest thing I can think of is not to think of the cleverest thing I could think of.

Speaker 1 You know, the that's the smart play here um if he does go against Joe one way or another then how does that play out if he decides that Joe it would leave a sad taste in the mouth let me tell you that emotionally how it plays out can we talk about Alan there

Speaker 2 okay I okay he's now a fully minted national treasure he it's it's just it's for it's beyond he's also but he remains an unbelievably high delivering entertainment booker at all points he is giving you something and he's providing gloss and asides that are, you know, I mean, honestly, when you said to when he said to Celia, yeah, you can't just compliment everyone and then keep it, you can't just keep complimenting everyone and then just voting for them.

Speaker 2 I mean, there's a number of drive-bys, and there are ones where you're just not quite sure. I wondered whether there even was some genuine nibble with Kate.
I wasn't quite sure about it.

Speaker 2 There were moments where it was.

Speaker 1 And you can see him with Joe as well. You can see around the round table, the two of them are absolutely butting horns.

Speaker 1 If I'm a producer, right, you go, okay, we're down to our final five, no evictions, and of course, no, no murder, and of course, there's no murder because that does make the maths impossible.

Speaker 1 So that's the slight dead hand of the producer, but in a way that's absolutely acceptable.

Speaker 1 Because once you're down to five or four, there are different permutations, and you have to let the game play out, which is what they've done there.

Speaker 1 But if I'm sitting there in the gallery and I'm saying,

Speaker 1 Claudia, why don't we get them all just to look everyone else in the eye and say, I am a faithful. Why don't we do that?

Speaker 1 And if you're Claudia, if I'm even me, if I'm at the back of the gallery, I'm like, I mean, is that, I mean, it feels like that's not really going to show anything, is it?

Speaker 1 I mean, you just be like, I mean, I get it, but it's just one of those, you know, moments.

Speaker 1 And then you get to Alan and he literally falls to pieces and literally starts laughing halfway through, I am a faithful. I mean, he's already forgotten he had a shield.

Speaker 1 Now he's laughing halfway through saying, Yeah, I am a faithful.

Speaker 2 And the highly personal cashier's Joe Marla has categorised it just as you did right at the very start when we knew who the bookings were, saying, oh, it's good for comedians because they can deflect, you know, they can deflect with humor.

Speaker 2 And Joe Marla actually explicitly said, I think you deflect with humor. And I think, I mean, that wasn't even a deflection.

Speaker 1 I mean, my goodness, it really wasn't.

Speaker 1 It feels like they've sort of got Kat's number as well. I think.
Yeah. I think it's

Speaker 1 certainly Nikki feel has.

Speaker 2 She'd been able to say all along, oh, I'm not great in social situations. And she's done it in a very nice way.
And I'm not brilliant at so that

Speaker 2 which is true, yeah,

Speaker 2 but also it's been quite useful. And so, there's she's been able to do that, but I think at this stage, you can't do that anymore.

Speaker 1 Yes, I think there's no hiding place anymore.

Speaker 2 I think she should have been the leader of the people. I think she shouldn't have even let Joe Marla say anything before she said, I've got to say, Jonathan, I've been thinking about this a long time.

Speaker 2 I think it's you going in the slipstream of others, which as we know is the kind of you know,

Speaker 2 Yeah, the herb well that that kind of that form of behavior Which is very useful for traitors, but ultimately I think I Don't know if I were her I'd have thought I can't see how this is going to work out for Jonathan tonight and I'm going to be the one leading leading it all because then people would have said and actually they had they didn't do this with Joe Mahler even afterwards which they didn't say

Speaker 2 which they would have done in the normal version of the game, you know, you're fated all the way back to the bar and you've become the traitor hunter because you've got the traitor hunt.

Speaker 2 And when actually Celia was banished, sorry, when Celia was murdered, I mean, she's so funny. We all tell her,

Speaker 2 I love her so much. And we all tell ourselves silly Philip Tippers about ourselves.
But she said, I was murdered because I was brave enough to get the saith.

Speaker 2 Okay. Okay.
Can I just talk about your votes, please, Celia? In this entire show. Charlotte, Kat.
David, Jonathan, David, Joe Marla, and then Jonathan.

Speaker 1 That's not bad, though. That's three.
Really?

Speaker 1 So, Kat and Alan have only one chance of winning, and that is to persuade David.

Speaker 1 It's just one episode next week, and we're going to see who wins at the end of that.

Speaker 1 Alan and Kat have to, have to, have to persuade David of their point of view, or they've got to somehow try and knock Nick off course.

Speaker 1 So, what they have to do is persuade David that either Nick or Joe is

Speaker 1 a possible traitor. And once they do that, then

Speaker 1 they have a path to view. Why didn't they murder Nick?

Speaker 2 To what caused chaos? I mean, there's enough chaos already with this live.

Speaker 1 I mean, chaos was great early on. Yeah.
And it does work chaos early on. Just a moment.
Why didn't they murder Nick?

Speaker 1 But that was crazy.

Speaker 2 And simply not explained. The way it was edited, we didn't get to see their brilliant reasoning.
Because I went after I've heard it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but the fact that Joe and Nick are still there

Speaker 1 is an absolute fault. Yeah.
of the traitors. You know,

Speaker 1 it really is. It's a huge issue for them now.
And if those two guys can play this properly, then they are definitely going to win and the traitors are in huge trouble.

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Speaker 1 You know, time and time again, we say the job of the faithful is not to weed out traitors. So this is one of the few series in the history of traitors where there's not been a recruitment.

Speaker 1 There's not been a recruitment because they picked off their first traitor sort of at the perfect time. We've talked before about the best thing to be as a recreature traitor.

Speaker 1 So I went, I've done a deep dive into the statistics of every single series of traitors everywhere around the world to see if that's actually true because it feels like it's true, but is it?

Speaker 1 Can I just go to the next one?

Speaker 2 And we know it's true in our hearts, but is it true in our hearts?

Speaker 1 I'll read you some of my findings. By the way, traitors win more often than Faithforce.
Okay, so traitors have won 32 out of those 60 series.

Speaker 1 Faithful have won 26, and there's been two sort of no result type things because of people mucking about with the format.

Speaker 1 If you are an original traitor, so we start, imagine we're right at the beginning, 19 people. We got Jonathan, we got Anna, we got Kat.
The chance of an original traitor winning traitors is 17%.

Speaker 1 Okay, you have a 17% chance of being the winner of traitors if you're at the beginning there. If you're a faithful at the beginning, it is 6%.

Speaker 1 You have a 6% chance of winning this game because you've got to last a really, really long time. Yeah.
And people will try and banish you.

Speaker 1 And you are definitely going to, you know, someone is definitely trying to murder you. So, you know, you've got there's a lot of trouble there.
So, it's 17% if you're original, 6% if you're faithful.

Speaker 1 If you are recruited as a traitor across these 60 series, 25%.

Speaker 1 Listen, there will be math geeks out there who will say to me quite rightly that if you are recruited, you're later on in the process anyway.

Speaker 1 So, it's so the numbers wouldn't be as far apart as they sound, but it is definitively

Speaker 1 the strongest position in the game. And not this one.

Speaker 1 So, this one, and now, you know we're down to 3v2 you would say that all other things being equal everyone's got an exactly equal chance i think the faithful have a mathematical advantage now i think they they have they have that kind of moral alliance advantage they have a strong psychiatric advantage although as you say nick could be too clever traitors do win more often than faithfuls yeah for sure but

Speaker 1 That has started to change recently. So in the first few years, so 2023, five faithful wins around the world.
So just five faithful wins. 2024, six faithful wins.
2025, 11 Faithful wins.

Speaker 1 The Faithfuls are getting smarter and working out, especially how to play the end game. And does the game favour men or women? What would your gut say?

Speaker 2 My gut says it favours... oh my gut says it favours women.

Speaker 1 Just 66 female winners, 63 male winners.

Speaker 2 When I'm thinking of all the internationals, yes.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's almost statistically insignificant, especially if we have two men winning this. We'll be almost identical.

Speaker 1 But what is interesting about that number, 66 and 63 is adds up to 129 we've had 60 series so when you're down to two which is what you get to you know which is the minimum you can get to it would be 120 it shows that actually in the end there's very very very rarely three winners even if there are three of you and you're pretty sure you're all faithful there is nothing to lose in the two of you who are the strongest friends getting rid of someone which is where david is going to lose out because joe and nick if it's joe nick and david at the end, David can sort of say whatever he wants.

Speaker 1 There is nothing to lose really for Nick to vote him out. Because I mean, if they're wrong and he is faithful, then

Speaker 1 they'll feel guilty for a while. But if he were a traitor, that would be a very bad mistake to make.
So there is nothing to be gained in three people winning this.

Speaker 1 If they did, wouldn't that be lovely? It would be a lovely reflection of trust and human nature.

Speaker 1 But it feels to me like we're going to have, this is going to be a two-winnerer and it's either going to be Alan and Kat, or it's going to be Nick and Joe.

Speaker 2 I don't, yeah, Joe Marta doesn't, I don't feel like it gets into his own head, but he's like Chuck Norris. I didn't imagine him sleeping at all during the entire time he was there.

Speaker 2 Like, you know, that he's just, Chuck Norris doesn't sleep, he waits.

Speaker 1 Um, can I, a couple of, a couple of notices of, again, the dead hand of the producer, um, because there were so few of them going to the task on, I think, um, Wednesday's show.

Speaker 1 Who are the two people they put in a car together? Kat and Alan. Yes.
As a producer, you're thinking, that is not two people. They are not natural bedfellows, those two.

Speaker 1 And they're not natural plotters. So if we leave them to their own devices, then they might not at any point work out that now's the time to ditch Jonathan.
And

Speaker 1 now was the time to ditch Jonathan for sure. And Jonathan was trying to work out how to ditch.
Kat or Alex is the one thing that would have saved him.

Speaker 2 He sort of half-heartedly tried to laugh them, but it was quite half-hearted. As I say,

Speaker 2 I love the way Jonathan played it. I haven't loved the noises off because I keep seeing him doing podcasts and talking about it.

Speaker 2 He has also said, I've had celebrities, my celebrity friends are asking me whether I should do it next time and I'm giving the benefit of my wisdom and saying I didn't enjoy it, so telling them not to.

Speaker 2 Oh, he said something absolutely brilliant at one point, which is totally true, which was, you know, about the quality of the opposition, which was essentially, you know, if you play it properly and the shields are something to go for for yourself, as opposed to just treating it like like some sort of nice, polite thing.

Speaker 2 I mean, he was in despair of it. Having said that, that would have been the TV moment of the year.
If Celia, when she was putting Kat on the thing, if she'd thought, actually, you know what?

Speaker 2 I think I'll put myself up there.

Speaker 2 If she put herself there, I think it would have been so funny. And furthermore, she wouldn't have got murdered.

Speaker 1 You want to say, well, surely Joe and Nick are going to win this. But we've seen this show so many times.
And we've seen what can happen in that final episode.

Speaker 1 And again, watch in that last episode, just watch if producers put any groupings together. Watch if they have any particular games that sort of push people in a certain direction.

Speaker 1 Not in a cheating way, but just to let people have conversations so you might not normally have conversations.

Speaker 2 Watch if they innovate in any way like they did with The Seer or anything like that, any sort of novel device that is inserted into that final bit.

Speaker 1 Because if I was the producer, what I would be thinking is this...

Speaker 1 endgame plays out in a very simple way which is yeah i know i know that that's the likely thing and i'm also thinking maybe that's not the greatest end to my series.

Speaker 1 I mean, it sort of is because it's lovely for Joe and Nick to win because they've shown such kind of skill throughout.

Speaker 2 And because they're so different.

Speaker 2 It reminded me a little bit of our that bonus episode we did about Mike Darnell, where he finally found a way of in Joe Millionaire of wanting of getting like four reveals in the final episode, which was insane.

Speaker 2 Just stacking them all the time. So all the time you think, oh, it can't go, there can't be another piece of drama.
There can be.

Speaker 2 So if they can find a way of just putting putting one more layer of drama into that.

Speaker 1 Because again,

Speaker 1 when you see formats, lots of it is, oh my God, we've got a problem here. How do we put a sticking plaster on it? And so this idea of actually after when there's five left, no one reveals.

Speaker 1 what they are. We don't reveal if they're a traitor or a faithful.
That is definitively a sticking plaster, right? That's okay, we've got a problem here in our end game.

Speaker 1 Sometimes sticking plasters make your show better. In that environment, over a week, being locked up almost constantly.

Speaker 1 I've talked to a couple of contestants this week, by the way, about the living conditions.

Speaker 1 It's extreme. Yeah, it's extreme.
And not in a, you know, there's no privations, but it is definitively in a bubble. You are allowed to think about nothing but the game.

Speaker 1 And so in that situation, in that final episode, if you can really turn the screw and you are denuded of information even further than you have been already, that's the time when somebody...

Speaker 1 could crack and again not none no you you just it's an hour long yeah and a lot of people have a lot of theories about a lot of people. And Joe Marlow, you can see, has been given the hero edit.

Speaker 1 But he's been given the hero edit because firstly, you can edit it that way because he is getting a lot right. And secondly, because he's given so much value to the producers and names his theories.

Speaker 2 In that way, that when they get someone on a history documentary to do Talking Heads, and what you're doing there really is providing the connective tissue between this bit of footage of Hitler and this bit of footage of something else.

Speaker 2 And if you say it really, really clearly, then they're just going to keep asking you back because you're the guy who can say it.

Speaker 2 If you say, I think you deflect using humor and you just say it so clearly, then you're the dream for the producer because you've said it exactly and you're very, very clear.

Speaker 2 And you say, I think my game plan tomorrow is going to be to do this because this, then you're that person.

Speaker 2 Weirdly, he comes the least from that world because his primary career was doing something completely different.

Speaker 1 So next Thursday. The final, very exciting.

Speaker 1 I'm going to be in Germany, but Germany's an hour ahead. So I think it finishes.
So I think I'll be able to watch it live and then we're going to do our episode live and talk a little bit about it.

Speaker 1 I'm very, very excited about that. We'll see you for like a regular episode on Tuesday, and we'll see you for another Celebrity Traitors Reaction one next Thursday.
It's so exciting.

Speaker 2 See you next week, guys.

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Speaker 1 And the built-in Dolby Atmos doesn't just play sound, it performs it. Think blockbuster sound without leaving the sofa.

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Speaker 1 And not sure what to watch? Well Sky's creative recommendation will find something for everyone. Less scroll, more story, and the perfect way to make the most of those longer evenings.

Speaker 2 For more information visit sky.com.

Speaker 1 Requires relevant Sky TV subscriptions, broadband recommended minimum speed, 30 megabits per second, 18 plus UK, Channel Islands and Isle of Man only.

Speaker 7 This holiday, discover meaningful gifts for everyone on your list at K.

Speaker 2 Not sure where to start?

Speaker 7 Our jewelry experts are here to help you find or create the perfect gift, in-store or online. Book your appointment today and unwrap Love this Season, only at Kay.