S2E2: Goodbye Mrs. Selvig (with Dan Erickson)

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Hey, Adam. Yeah.
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Hey, I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott.
And this is the Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance. Today, we're diving into the second episode of season two, Goodbye, Mrs.
Selvig, written by Mohamed El-Masri and directed by Sam Donovan. First, we'll be joined by the creator of Severance, Dan Erickson, to help us unpack some of your burning hotline questions, which is very exciting.
Yeah. Then Adam and I will talk about a few of our favorite scenes from the episode and get into it a little.
And finally, Zach Cherry will give us his predictions for what happens in episode three. My goodness.
It's always interesting. It's exciting.
I'm always wondering what, like, Zach has actually read or seen of the show. I'm always interested in anything Zach is thinking.

And it's always a surprise when it comes out, isn't it?

Always. There's always something in there.

Yeah. Oh, and also, spoiler warning, we'll be talking about everything and anything from this episode.

So make sure to watch the second episode of season two and then come back to us.

So just pause if you haven't watched it and just go right to Apple. You can do it all on your phone now.
Everything can happen on your phone. How weird would it be if you listen to these episodes and then watch the television episodes? Yeah, yeah.
That would be probably less fun, I think. I've done that before with other recap podcasts.
You've listened to recaps of shows you haven't seen. Well, I listened to some like Sopranos recap episodes and I hadn't seen the episodes in like 20 years or whatever.
And then went back and was like, why am I doing it like this? So what was your thinking on that? That you would reacquaint yourself with the episode first and then be able to enjoy it more? I guess so. I guess I listened to the episode that was recapping the episode I had watched and just let it run and was like, why not? I like listening to these guys talk and just got comfortable listening to them.
But then watching the episode, I was like, okay, well, now I know what happens and I'm distracted by all the behind the scenes stuff. So it's really not the way to do it.
Great. Well, you learned something.
I did. And I'm able to share it with our audience and with you.
Great. It's actually dangerous to do that.
Okay. I'm excited that we're going to talk to Dan here.
Yeah. I mean, the brain in a jar, Dan Erickson.
Hey guys, the jar is back. That's what we call your head.
I was to say good to see you both But the brain has no eyes But they tell me that you're here You can feel us, right? I can feel you, I can feel your presence So how was it, Dan? I'm going to ask you as if I was not there at all Or around Just curious What was it like like the writing process for you on season two oh man so easy uh it was fun though i do remember sitting down with you guys and starting to talk about like okay how can we sort of mess with the form of the show and like can we play with presenting the episodes different ways and that sort of gets into how episodes one and two ended up, you know, panning out with being this sort of all anything. And then this all outie thing.
And I remember being really excited about about trying that and trying different sort of variations on the formula. Right.
I was I was trying to remember back to when that actually took shape. The first episode being any's, the second episode being outies, because it is a really fun way to kick off the season.
I remember we were thinking about, there's so much to kind of deal with, you know, so many loose ends to sort of tie up or like just questions to address, you know, what happens after you say she's alive. Right, right.
And we were thinking, how do you deal with what's going on in the Audi world? How do you deal with what's going on in the Annie world? Yeah, well, it's funny funny because I think it's a show that lends itself well to a direct pickup, like especially the way that we ended season one. It's like you want to know what happened immediately after that.
But because of the conceit of the show, you can sort of do two different direct pickups. It's like what happens to any Mark immediately after he comes to and then what happens to Audi Mark when he returns at the party.
And I always was so excited about that idea of that sort of reverse shot of, you know, she's alive and then suddenly we're back at the party and everyone is looking at Mark. It was just such a fun opportunity to just jump right back in.
Yeah. And then there was this cool thing of like people starting to embrace the show.
And all of a sudden it was a very different environment in working on the show because for so long you'd been working on it in a vacuum and now a world of people out there who were waiting for the next season. Yeah.
I mean, it was so, so strange because like I have all these sort of like, you know, nerdy entertainment YouTube channels that i like to watch just on my free time just like to decompress and suddenly those guys were talking about severance can i ask you a question yes how do you watch them without having eyes do you wire them directly into your brain yeah yeah how do you listen without ears i these are the existential questions of my brain jar existence that's right yeah yeah it's just a brain and Yeah. How do you listen without ears? These are the existential questions of my brain jar existence.
That's right. Yeah.
It's just a brain in a jar. But was it fun for you, Dan, to kind of jump back in thinking about episodes one and two? Was it fun to do this new structure, having one fully in-e episode and one fully out-e episode? I loved it.
And to me, that was, once we sort of latched onto that structure and knew that that's what we were going to do. That's when it started to get fun for me, because I remember sitting down and it did feel so daunting because there, like we said, there's all the questions you have to answer on the outie side and then everything on the innie side.
And the characters have to get caught up. to catch each other up like devin has to tell mark what she heard all of this stuff and it wasn't until we sort of came up with this separation of okay innie episode outie episode that it started to make sense and take shape for me but then it is like there's a really fun just sort of procedural pleasure in it's like what immediately would happen after like if Mark really did wake up, like what would his Audi know? What would Milchick be doing? What would Lumen be doing? And all of these pieces having to come together in this sort of it sort of continues the the kind of manic pace of episode 109, but in a different way.
One thing that's kind of a fun byproduct of this any episode, a then purely Audi episode is we get to experience the, you know, going to work or leaving work from inside or outside as it is for an Indy and an Audi, which is just an instantaneous experience. You don't experience that full day of work or that full night of rest or whatever.
You see what it's like for an innie going home at the end of the day and then immediately starting work the next day and vice versa for the Audi. Yeah.
Totally. And that was something in episode one that we talked about a little bit was the idea of the claustrophobic nature of it that I felt directing wise in episode one was that idea of like, you feel more of the weirdness of Mark's experience and all the innies experience.
I realized the show really could never exist just on the severed floor. It just, you go crazy.
Right. So Dan, it was really fun for me to see Helena.
Yes. Really for the first time, except for the video that we saw in the first season.
And we get to see that there's this new character that Dari Olofsson plays, who's sort of a, seems like he's an important person there who helps bring in Jane Egan when they talk. And we see a new space, some sort of a conference room.
And it was fun to sort of introduce this other world for the first time. Yeah.
In a way, it feels like just a whole new arena to play in with all of these strange new characters that are, you know, higher in status, but still very much in this lumen world. And just trying to figure out what they're doing and what's making them tick.
And also, we had to sort of pick up the thread now on the other characters who've now been exposed to the Audi world in terms of with Irving and with Dylan and even though Dylan hadn't gone up, but we still, we're going to see what's happening with Dylan. I mean, just specifically to Helena, it's just incredible.
Like you said, getting to see her outside of that one video in season one and see just how different she is from

hellie and how great brit is at playing this other person and this person that is i found her to be chilling in this episode talking to cobell an apology is warranted I apologize.

My father apologizes. The board apologizes.
We've treated you poorly. I'm sorry.
I welcome your contrition. I'm so glad.
Yeah, I mean, the fun thing is to see the flip side of this dynamic that we've seen the whole first season of Cobell, you know, sort of over Helly. And now it's the, you know, which is one of the things in the show that only you can do in the show is, you know, see two characters in a totally different dynamic.
Totally dynamic totally yeah and it's fun in this episode getting to see the kind of new replacement workers on the outside of lumen bob balaban and alia shakat stefano caranante yes he god it is stefano's fantastic isn't he all three great italian actor yeah so by the way bob balaban needs to be hired to june's band from season one because of how well he he shouts fuck you lumen that's exactly what i thought too i thought immediately of that band like if they need a new lead singer i i love that little callback episode six right from season one yeah the feeling of the fuck you lumen that's out there in the world. Yeah.
It's out there in the air. I really enjoyed also the whole sequence of the first team coming back in episode one.
And then as you see them doing the same thing in episode two, but coming into the locker room. And Sam Donovan and I sort of collaborated on that because we knew that we wanted those shots to match each other.
And both shots are pretty much the same exact timings that we tried to get. And it was really fun watching Sam choreograph that scene, which I thought you guys, it was very complicated to do.
So what you're referring to specifically is the scene in episode one, where everyone comes back and comes out of the elevator and we greet each one matches the scene in episode two of them getting ready and entering the elevator from their lockers. Supposedly.
I've never really actually checked it, though. We did try to get the timings right when we shot it.
But somebody probably will do a YouTube. Yeah, I'm sure someone will look into that for us.
Yeah. But it was really fun because, you know, we had to figure out that shot for episode one and then Sam had to really figure out as complicated.
Cause like it's really just one shot and you see a new section of the locker room, Dylan's locker, and you have to believe that they're not seeing each other as they come in and the timings are all staggered. It was hard to do.
Yeah. Very, it was very challenging for both a camera-wise and for the actors and also to make it interesting.
And I thought Sam did a great, great job with it. I love doing stuff like that because it's just so satisfying when you do it.
And it requires so much focus and sort of cooperation and concentration from everybody on set. And I don't know how many times we went through it a lot, but when you finally get it, it's so satisfying and so much fun and everyone celebrates.
And it's great. It was also fun in this episode to see how, you know, what we learn about them having been out for five months, supposedly.
That's kind of not true at all. That's kind of not true at all.
Yeah. I think it was just a couple of days.
How did you come up with that idea of the Kier Chronicle? Yeah. It feels so specifically Kier and Lumen to come up with this five month lie and then the bad Photoshop, all that stuff.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, Lumen is always, you know, telling the innies what they think they want to hear and showing them what they think they want to see. And it's like their approximation of what the workers want is often so clumsy and weird in addition to being dark and sinister.
That to me is where it gets really funny. And it's so funny to me that Lumen wrote the article and then redacted half of it.
Like half of the article that they themselves had written. It's a mind game on top of a mind game.
It's mind games in mind games in mind games. And also the fact that Mark would actually, that actually might work on Mark S.
Yeah. You know, because not because he's, you know, not smart, just because of his world knowledge and his worldview and and also the amount of time that milchik lets him see it for it's just like yeah kind of like pulls it out just i remember the amount deciding on how long he lets me look at it we really kind of tried to balance that perfectly and and it's timing wise the way you guys you and jeff cut it it's kind of perfect but what i love dan is that the the solution sometimes for a very complicated question of how do they deal with this you know indies have been on the outside world is such a simple and kind of almost rudimentary device that they're that you know it's not some high tech first of all they're not they're not punishing them they're going the opposite.
But then they're doing it in a way that's almost so simplistic. Well, and I think that like where the five month thing comes into me is like, I mean, there's a couple reasons behind it.
But one thing is there is just this intrinsic sense of it's like, well, we're not punishing you for what happened. But just so you know, five months has passed, like you're now five months older.
There's this sense of lost time that, you know, it's not us. We would never punish you.
But the consequence of your action is that now five months have passed. And just that would be such a strange thing to suddenly learn.
It's like, oh, I just lost half a year of time. Yeah.
So again, it's mind games and mind games with these guys but it's funny i was i was watching the you know the eight minute sneak peek with my mom and and the moment where where mark goes i'd like to hear it from them she goes yeah because it was such a it's like that's something that any mark in season one probably wouldn't have said like he has come back with this more of a sense of being able to call out the bullshit a little bit. Yeah, for sure.
All right. I hate to shut the proverbial door in the listeners' faces, but we got to take a quick break.
But you know what they say, when one door closes, another one opens. Any guesses on what scene we'll talk about when we get back? I don't, but you know what they also also say what one man's ceiling is another man's floor whoa okay i don't know how that relates to the door thing but all right we'll be right back some people follow the rules but where's the fun in that? I'm Soraya and this is Rule Breakers,

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an Odyssey podcast available now for free on the the first season, you told us that you used to work at a door factory.

And in this episode, we see... about one specific scene from episode two okay now when we had you on from the first season you

told us that you used to work at a door factory and in this episode we see dylan interviewing at a door factory so let's listen to the scene here real quick okay great yeah you know i i think this is going to be a really great fit for me mr saliva you know ever since i was a kid i've always felt like doors.

Hold.

Sorry?

How old were you when you knew you loved doors? Five. If you could be any kind of door, what would it be? Uh...
Pocket. Just think.
Tell me more. Well, you're doing your door thing and then when you're not needed, you can just take yourself away.
Oh, man. Adrian Martinez is so great.
Absolute absolute national treasure that was verbatim the exact interview that i actually had at the door factory word for word really no it's very different i love how uh yeah he's just like he really loves doors this guy yeah somebody working there who really cares about doors as much as he does. And just the, the look of the, it's just really kind of beautifully composed and how much Zach and Adrian look like each other in real life.
They don't really resemble each other all that much, but in these shots, you guys really lined them up. So it just almost looks mirror like.
Yeah. Sam Donovan did a great job.
And Jeremy Hindle, our production designer, created this space within this factory. It's actually the location is in Brooklyn.
It's actually, we shot a scene from Escape at Dannemora there too. It's a factory.
Yeah. Which scene? The flashback episode in Escape at Dannemora where we see Patricia Arquette's character where she's working at the shoe factory yeah and so you're saying you're saying ben that there's a shared universe between these two shows there is and then there's also the same yeah and the stellar verse and then adrian martinez was in uh secret life of walter and uh so you're in that too and we're all connected and also jeremy did this really cool thing where he had the doors on this sort of like assembly line like hook that reminds me of monsters inc where they're like kind of going by yeah um yeah so that i thought that was it's such a funny scene to me watching that and also how then he's he turns on him when he finds out he's severed yeah the the look when he finds out he's severed and he says you're a he finds out he's severed and he says, you're a severed.
And then also like when he, the look when Dylan makes the door prize joke, and it's just this, this sort of how dare you, how dare you make light of this holy slander. Yeah.
It was going so well until he said the wrong thing. Yeah.
It's always fun to just get a peek into the kind of the cultural reaction to severance and how severance is perceived in the outside world too. Yeah.
That's something I, yeah, that's something I always love when we get to do like similar to the non-dinner party in season one where you just, it's like, how are people actually talking about this out in the world? What are the sort of public perceptions of it? But yeah, that was just such a great way also to understand Dylan's dilemma in the outside world and what he's doing.

You know, things aren't going great for him.

His family, he's a little unhappy.

And Scott obviously has these responsibilities.

And, you know, we see how he ends up coming back to work, really.

He seems to be sort of grasping for an identity of sorts, trying to look for somewhere to put himself and something to latch onto.

Yeah, his is such an interesting dual performance because sort of on the surface, I feel like it's maybe one of the more different portrayals of an innie and an outie.

Like he, you know, there's a little bit more of a natural feel to how he he's or at least a recognizable feel to how he's acting on the outie side but at the same time

zach does such an amazing job of putting the same like you feel some of the same kind of insecurities

but they're expressed very differently because in the innie world he sort of knows who he is

and out here he doesn't have that and there's a sense sense of being a little bit lost. A lot of the scenes that make me sort of emotional are seeing Audi Dillon and how kind of, he just doesn't have, like you said, he doesn't have an identity really.
And he's looking for it. And he doesn't realize that he has one at Lumen and is sort of in a way more uh has a more rewarding existence there on yeah he on a certain level his any is very sure of who he is and the parameters of his place in the world in fact he's striving in reaching for more he wants more life to grab onto whereas his audi seems to be sort of shrinking away from life and from these responsibilities and things.

It's really interesting.

And Zach is just wonderful.

One, especially with the sort of grandiose way that he speculates about his Audi.

That's right.

When he's down on the floor and that in reality, he's this very different figure. He's not doing muscle shows.
No muscle shows. He's not doing muscle shows.
Bummer. All right.
We've been getting some really cool fan questions from our hotline, Dan. Oh, okay.
So would you be up for answering some of those with us? I would love it. I've been waiting to hear these actually.
So this is good. Us too.
We have not heard these questions. Yeah, this questions.
This is our first time. Oh really? Okay.
All right. Hi, this is gray.
Um, my question is what was the biggest difference between shooting season two versus season one? Uh, congrats on the show. Me and my boyfriend love it.
Thank you. Thank you, gray.
Dan, once you start for you? What was the biggest difference? Well, certainly I felt like there was definitely more pressure because, you know, season one, we were pretty sure that we were doing something cool, but it was like worst case scenario. Nobody will watch this and it'll sort of fade away.
But this time you have all of these people who have found it and invested in it and given their time to it and gotten excited about it. And you really want to do right by those people and you don't want to let anybody down.
So in writing it, I would say like, I remember like sitting down and like the first, the first time I was writing an episode for season two was like, okay, how do I do this again? Like, am I even sure I can still do this? And am I even sure what actually worked about the first season? And it took actually getting into it and writing a couple of scenes to be like, okay, no, I can still do this. But it was scarier in a way because the pressure is on a bit more.
Yeah. How about you, Ben? For me, it was actually, it was fun to know that there was an audience for the show going into it and of course you know all along the making of the season you're always trying to you know make it the best it can be and you are still working in a bit of a vacuum because you're making all the episodes and nobody's gonna see them until they're all done so that part of is always what it is.
But the fun of it was that we kind of were like doing a series now and we, you know, we're coming back and we kind of knew what the challenges were. We knew how to work within the sets.
We knew we were going to go for some new things and challenge ourselves and kind of try not to stay exactly in the box we had in the first season. But yeah, I'd say, you know, definitely there's a feeling of like, oh gosh, I hope we can live up to something that people expect.
But just the fact that people even expected something was pretty great. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
I think all of that and I figured out how to wear more comfortable shoes in season two. Season one was just dress shoes for 10 episodes and that really kind of takes a toll and so season two i realized when my feet are not on camera i can wear these like super comfortable sneakers and it just made life so much easier which i was admiring and you got me as a gift got you a pair of them yeah um um they are really comfy it makes me think of the great owen wilson who who i've done a number of movies with back in the day and he uh if his feet weren't on camera you could see him wearing a nice pair of uggs yeah usually good flip flops or you know just barefoot it's a great move i always wear uncomfortable shoes when i write out of solidarity to the actors you know because i know that they'll have to so shame on you adam yeah very humane of you yeah no more of that i guess i guess now you can slip on some uggs yeah now that i know okay let's let's hear another question hi there i was just wondering what the benefits packages are like this ever floor um i was thinking about doing it but i just to make sure that I'm going to be able to support myself and get the healthcare I need.
Thank you. Get back to me as soon as you can.
Bye. It's a good question.
Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, I would say that they are ample.
I would say, especially because, you know, as Irving says in this episode, you never know what your innie is going to eat down there. You know, your innie could drink whiteout or something.
And so, you know, you have to be sure that the company is going to take care of you. They're also a med tech company.
So I feel like the health benefits would be pretty good. Yeah, I was thinking like it would probably good medical benefits, but it's probably like Lumen doctors that they refer you to.
Yeah. There has to be some sort of disclaimer or release or something for what happens when you're down there in terms of like maybe or some sort of like in case of emergency call this number, right? Yeah.
It must have that like at school or something. Yeah.
Like legally, it must be something ironclad that they have everyone sign. Yeah, although I think any minor injuries can be treated with a visit to PIPs, the VIP section at PIPs.
The food there is very restorative. Yeah, delicious Denver omelets.
Oh, man. So should we refer this person? We didn't get the name, but should we refer them to Mr.
Milchick or who does intake? Who's the. Yeah.
Milchick would be the, you know, the liaison for that kind of thing. I'm sure he would do a good sales job.
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Milchick would probably he could probably do some of the medical stuff himself. He's a very handy.
That's right. He does.
He does just about everything. Yeah.
Okay. All right.
Now our next and last question. Hello.
My name is George. I was about to apply for a position, but I have one major concern.
How do I pack a lunch? Thanks. Excellent question.
Well, the answer, George, is that you don't. I don't think that we've ever actually explained this on screen.
But the way that the lunches work is that, you know, if you're an innie, you have a lunch in the fridge ready for you every day. And you don't get to pick it because those are selected in advance at the start of the week by your Audi who would

be like, okay, Monday, I want fish piccata, you know, Tuesday, I want jello, you know, whatever.

We don't know yet what's in the, in the lunches necessarily, but, but that's how that works.

Interesting. No cafeteria down there that we know of at this point.

Well, not that we've seen. Yeah.
We've seen, yeah. Or food services.

I have to say, listening to that message, I'm not sure that guy's real name is George. I don't know.
I'm just not buying it. Yeah.
And he's also asking, how do I pack a lunch? Yeah. I guess we could provide instructions on how to pack a lunch.
George strikes me as someone who's trying to get away with something, and I don't think we should hire him's why he's using uh the moniker george and also if he's thinking of getting severed having a brain chip implanted into his head it's an irreversible procedure and his one major concern is how do i pack a lunch there's something going on there all right well dan thank you for joining us thank you guys this was fun i'm excited that we're off and running on season two doesn't it feel great to have people finally seeing season two it just feels so terrific yeah such a release i'm feeling very good about it all right well we'll be talking to you again and uh is somebody going to actually grab your brain or is it what's? Yeah.

Yeah.

No, they're going to come.

It's Milchik.

He's going to come and take it away and put me away.

Oh, here he comes.

Tuck me away.

Tuck me away like a pocket door.

Just take the mic off of the jar and we'll talk to you next time.

If you want to call the post box for Lumen Industries sever Severed Floor, call 212-830-3816. Alright, we'll be back in a second to talk about more of episode two.
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That's A-T-L-A-S-S-I-A-N dot com slash C-O-N-F-l-u-e-n-c-e. All right, I'm excited to talk about this episode with you.
But, you know, first up, there's something very exciting at the beginning of the episode, which is a new opening credit sequence. Yes.
Yeah. artist who works with the computer and teddy blanks who works in new york who does the the graphics part of it but the computer animation is oliver lata and it was so in a way specific to season one even though it was created not with specific nods to necessarily story points but images and different settings that it felt to me that there was an opportunity as time was going by as we were making the season.
I thought, well, you know, people are going to have waited a while for season two. It might be fun to have something else new for them as well.
And Oliver, I talked to him and he was totally up for it. I mean, he did, he won an Emmy for that.
It's the first title sequence he ever did. He, you know.
And do you want to talk about how you found Oliver? I just, I happened upon his Instagram feed, but he, you know, just had this incredible computer animation of these sort of amorphous blobs of humanoid forms that fall into one another and kind of bubbles and the texture of it. It's just something incredibly captivating and satisfying watching his work.
It really feels like nothing else you see out there animation wise. It feels very singular.
Yeah. And so it was just like one day on the way to work, I saw it and thought, oh, wow, this could be really cool for the show.
Yeah. Oliver, first time I met him was at the Emmys, actually.
Wow. When he won his Emmy.
Really? In person, you'd never... He came to LA for the Emmys and for the, you know, and the after party where, you know, we lost 12 of our 14.
Yes. I remember.
But he won, he and Teddy Shapiro won, and both very deservedly. Well deserved.
Yeah. And so it was great to meet him there him there he's a young guy he's super talented and um it was just a great connection that he had with the show and it ended up informing in a way imagery for season two I mean when you look at you carrying those balloons in episode one yeah you know for me that came out of his balloon image Is that right? That he did in the credits for season one.
Oh, right. Yeah.
I mean, just in my mind, I was like, oh, that, that it just made me think of that. So in that way, it was fun to think about, okay, what could it be for season two that is maybe more specific and has more Easter eggs and more little nods to the season that people might not even appreciate until the season is over.
Right. And they look back at it.
Right. And that was a fun process with him.
And first one took about eight or nine months and this one, same thing. And it's been really fun, exciting, a little bit scary on my end because I know people love the season one credits so much, but, uh, it seems like people have been responding to the season one.
I love these ones. I also love it because other characters find their way into the opening credits now.
And remember they were getting kind of the image that everyone had to go and get their kind of the scan that I had to do for season one. Yeah, a 3D scan where they take pictures of you with like hundreds of still cameras and then he can recreate your image.
Yeah. Do you have a favorite image from the, um, from the credits? I really, well, from season one, I really love the balloons with the heads and it's so funny that I, it didn't even occur to me that that's where the balloons with the faces on them came from, was from the opening credits from season one.
Yeah, it's not really a direct line. No, no, no.
It's just an image in there. For me, for the season two credits, one of the things that I really love is you jumping off of the desk, little you jumping off the desk, and then instead of going into the head that it does in season one, it goes into a painting of your head in season one oh yeah yeah and there's other there are other nods to episodes as they go along as i said that we can get into maybe as we go along too and the ending of the opening credit sequence is is super interesting too yes when you see like a little baby kia kind of crawling by yes yeah interesting all right all right okay you know what i want to talk about a little bit is um you because

you know what i want to talk about a little bit is um you because you know your character is going through a lot in episode two really you kind of outie mark is deciding whether or not he wants to return to lumen and we started out with that creepy visit from milchick what happened tonight is what we call the overtime contingency it's a safeguard we employ if we ever need to access your work personage off company grounds yeah you never told me about this otc disclosure can be found in your start paperwork it's clear that you just don't feel right about it and you don't know if you're going to go back. And he kind of lays that sort of little guilt trip on you about your innie and how brave your innie was to do what he did.
And you wouldn't want to reward him by ending his life. Right.
He literally lays it out like I would be killing someone. Yeah.
Yeah. And that scene was, I thought Sam, again, did a great job with that in terms of just the weirdness of that scene, how Rickon admires his helmet.

Yes. Rickon in all of these scenes here is so deeply funny.
Yeah. No, it's great because, you know, it's also like, how do you deal with that moment of she's alive? Like you said, she's alive.
And of course, you know, Rickon kind of goes to the point, well, it had to be the baby, right? Yeah. And, and also he's really a little bit more focused on how it affected his book party.
That's right. He's really preoccupied and decides everything's completely fine and they can just do it over again.
Yeah. But, but, uh, it's a moment of you and Devin connecting in terms of not trusting what's going on.
But you're kind of like at a point where you don't want to go back. You want to, right? I mean, I think until Devin comes to see you in the diner, right? At Pips.
Yeah, I think at the end of season one, Mark had made a decision that, or Mark was veering towards a decision to maybe move away from Lumen and maybe in a way sort of move on from everything. I mean, he come to this party ready to tell his sister he's thinking about quitting his job.
And that's the last thing he said to Mrs. Selvig at the party before he switches over to his innie in episode nine of season one.
So I think he was heading in that direction anyway. And this just sort of pushes him over the edge.
It's just too weird. And Devin now kind of talking, you know, bringing up this idea of she's alive is just all it's just all absurd noise to to Mark at this point i think yeah i think it's also kind of realistic when you think about how someone might react to this in terms of being told you know that person who died is actually alive which is such a crazy hard thing to wrap your head around and also mark probably feeling and i'm i'm speaking for you, but from my point of view watching is that Mark all of a sudden was taken out of the equation by his innie taking over.
And then all of a sudden he's back and he's being told that his innie said she's alive and everybody's sort of like debating what that means. And I think a natural reaction would be like, this is just like digging something up.
You're just in the process of trying to get over this in some way. You're grieving.
You're at the point where you're thinking, no, I can start to try to really move on from being severed. And then all of a sudden you're being told, no, wait a minute.
She's a lot. I could understand just wanting to say, no, no, no, no, don't like, this is crazy.

I don't want to go there. Yeah.
It's ridiculous to even consider it. And ultimately hurtful that Devin keeps sort of coming at me with this.
I was sort of at the time sort of trying to figure out how to play this with Audi Mark and kind of landed on. it had to feel like the most absurd stupid thing in the world like someone coming to you and telling you that someone in your life who passed away years ago is actually i mean it's just unthinkable and hurtful to even like bring up something like that yeah particularly uh in this situation where his feelings are clearly still quite raw about his wife who died.

Yeah, yeah.

Let's listen to that scene with you and Devin at Pips.

My thing is,

if we could just get like a half step more confirmation,

then it's not going to be something

that continues to haunt us.

Do you know what I mean?

Us.

Yes.

She was my family too, Mark.

Fuck.

Yeah, but she was my wife.

I know, but you're not the only one her death affected.

Oh, really?

It affected you?

Yes.

Did you have to tell her parents that she was dead?

How about her students?

How about this?

Did your sheets smell like her for weeks afterwards?

You know what?

Honestly, if Rickon died and his body burned, I'd be sad for you, but I wouldn't be affected. This is obscene.
I just want to be sure. I am sure.
Yeah, it's pretty hurtful language. Yeah, and a little bit of like sort of the tension with Rickon comes through there too.
And yeah, I mean, it makes total sense to me that why Mark would say I'm not into this. I think one interesting thing there is how Mark goes pretty hard at Devin here talking about if your husband died, I would be sad, but not affected.
And talking about his body potentially being burned, it's a real peek into, first of all, the brother-sister relationship and how with people you've known your whole life, you can go and poke a little further and you kind of give each other the permission to go too far sometimes. But also, it's a bit of a shot across the bow.
Like, don't fuck with me because I will bite back harder than you're ready for. So just leave this alone, you know? I totally got that.
Yeah. I totally got that.
And as I said, I think it's very believable. Also in that scene, we see that character from the beginning of the episode, who I will come to know as Mr.
Drummond, is sort of eavesdropping possibly on the scene. It's funny, the last time I watched through the episode, I didn't even notice him there.
Yeah, that was his point. He didn't even notice.
And on some some takes I high-fived him as I walked by. And you saw his frolic tattoo on his hand as you high-fived him.
Yeah. We shot that up at the Phoenicia Diner in the Catskills.
As we did in season one for Pips. Yeah.
And every time we shot there, there would always be a discussion. You know, there are other diners that are like a lot closer to New York.
It is quite far. Yeah.
It's, uh, it's totally worth it when you get there. What is it about this particular diner? I mean, there's something about that diner.
It's been in other things and, you know, usually I don't like to shoot things that are in other, you know, movies or stuff, but like, it's so good. And we were able to put our own little spin on it, but it's just like a great classic diner and it's in the middle of this you know beautiful wooded area yeah and uh it just felt it just felt right for our you know we picked it when we were trying to establish the environment of kia in the first season and the the parking lot figured prominently in season one as well yeah and we didn't want to when we were figuring it out in the beginning, like we wanted to make here feel a little bit desolate and not too urban and not too developed.
And so, you know, we didn't want to do a diner that was in a town. And that one came up much to the chagrin of our line producer.
It is beautiful out there. Yeah.
And much to the credit of our, uh, uh ryan smith our amazing location manager who also did some second unit directing work on on season two and he's got an amazing eye yeah meanwhile you know we've been tracking milchick who has had to sort of clean up a little bit and go and find out what people know uh what the innies who were activated know or the the outies know of what their innie did. And then, you know, we know that he has this directive that they have to get Mark to come back and we don't quite know how that plan has been working.
We get a little insight into where the new team came from. Yep.
Which is super interesting. Yeah.
Very interesting in that we learned that there are other branches. Yeah.
Which we knew there were a little bit from probably the first episode, you know, from the Lumen animated special that they made. I mean, according to the primetime animation special, there are offices all around the globe.
That's right. Even out in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean on one point, but you never know what's real and what's not.
But here they're having this internal conversation there and they're talking about overseas offices and also offices that may have shut down for one reason or another. Yep.
Yep. It's, it's interesting.
Yeah. And so we get the sense that Lumen sort of, you know, strung this together last minute to try to create a team around Mark that's going to keep him being productive.
So you get the sense that maybe the other people aren't as important as Mark. We've always known that Mark is special and a very good refiner.
And obviously from season one, we know the Mark and Miss Casey, you know, interaction. We got that idea that Cobell was sort of up to something with that.
Yeah. But I think we get a sense when Milchick gets to see Mark and to try to talk him in, he comes with a pineapple.
Yeah. A special pineapple plate that apparently is meant to entice you.
Going all out. Yeah.
And he sits down with you and he kind of does a little bit of, attempts a bit of sort of sales job here.

Do you want to listen to that?

Yeah.

You said since she died, every day feels like a year. That you felt like you were choking on her ghost.
Do you still feel that way, Mr. Scout? the mark I've come to know at Lumen is happy.
He cares for people. And he's funny.
He knows nothing of the pain I see in you right now. He's found love.
Love? With who? The solace you have given him down there will make its way to you. It just takes time.
I hope you'll give us that time, Mr. Scout.
First of all, just want to say, listening to it, not watching it, the sound design, I want to just give credit to Jacob Ribicoff and Bob Shafalis, our sound designer and mixer, the bubbling of the fish tank. Yeah, and I got to say, my favorite part, the sound of the leather jacket throughout the episode.
Trammell wears it incredibly well. He looks beautiful in that leather jacket, but also that jacket sounds great.
Yeah. I think that's a case of like turning the bug into a feature type of thing.
Yeah, I would imagine. It was an amazing Sarah Edwards leather jacket or costume designer that was not going to be denied.
Not quite. Yeah.
But no, that scene is also, you know, really interesting to me because Milchik for the first time is actually talking about your innie in a way and his well-being. and kind of, I think it's the first time it's ever even insinuated that his feelings would somehow benefit you on the outside.
Well, I think that for Mark, he probably isn't really considering going back seriously, but I think the fact that Milchick is doing what you just said, is talking about these feelings will rise up and come and meet you and you'll feel better because of what a good place your innie is at that will transfer to you shows some measure of desperation. At least we, the audience, can sense that.
But I think the fact that he brings up Gemma after all of this absurd noise he's been hearing from his sister and Rickon, it just sort of piques his interest. I don't think he's anywhere near believing that she's alive, but it's just too much of a coincidence.
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, also, I think it's picking up on sort of the guilting that he started with you a little bit when you were at Devin Rickins where he says you're going to end his life. But it's really great the way you play that scene, I think, because we're seeing how much all of that is weighing on you and you're putting this all together.
Yeah. And and uh it really it's really i think feels very effective and tramell is just so so great i mean just this whole episode of him riding around on the motorcycle how what what is that motorcycle was there a particular motorcycle you were you really wanted milchik to be riding it was an idea that Dan and I discussed.
I remember when it came up, it was an idea that came up at one of the events when we were in Los Angeles for season one, when we were all together. And I remember I said to Dan one night, I said, like, wouldn't it be cool if Milchick rode a motorcycle? And he was like, yeah, yeah, I like that.
And then it was sort of like, then it went from there. And it just seemed to me like that we've talked a lot.
And this came out of really what Dan's idea of Milchick's outer life is, which we have yet to see. So this is a little glimpse into like what his personal style is, right.
And what his vibe is on the, in the outside world. And he's kind of a cool guy, it seems who rides a motorcycle and yeah, the motorcycle itself is a Royal Enfield, but we customized it, but that's the, uh, that's the make of the bike.
It's, you know, it's tricked out and it's, it's just, it fits Milchick so perfectly to be riding around on a motorcycle, a fast motorcycle. He's like a singular guy.
He's sort of always kind of armored up and isolated from everyone around him. And now he gets this opportunity to step up and be the floor manager.
And his first job is to clean up Cobell's mess in a sense. And so he's going to do it and he is out there on a mission and just, it just feels so right to have him on a motorcycle on that mission.
Yeah. And we thought, you know, he's going to be traveling around the whole episode, kind of going to each person's house.
So it might be fun to have, you know, this kind of cool vibe of, you know, these motorcycle shots going through Kier. Yeah.
And then he kind of has to basically come back around and realizes that his other plan of the new team wasn't working. And he kind of catches some shit for that and has to basically bring a pineapple to everybody.
Yeah. To get them to come back, because that's the only way that you're really going to come back.
We've learned in episode one. So that comes back to the parallel events of episode one and two, which are there.
And we really were very aware of how to sort of have both episodes work in concert with each other. They're not exactly timeframe in terms of, you know, like beat to beat, because we're seeing different things happen.
But there are places where you can correlate what happened in episode one, like when any Mark made the recording to the board. And then you hear him playing the cassette recording of the, you know, the recording to the board for Helena and Mr.
Drummond. And so, you know, we see these little touchstones that happened in episode one and how they happened on the outside in episode two.
And that was the fun thing about putting both these episodes together. And even the title, Goodbye, Miss Cobell, Hello, Mrs.
Selvig for episode one and episode two work together also. But that was fun.
And like we talked about with Dan, putting together that shot of you guys coming back to work, which matches the shot that we see in episode one. It's really great.
Sam did a great job with that too. And then we should talk about the scene between you and Mrs.
Selby. Oh yeah.
Kind of the confrontation that Mark certainly has been waiting for and gearing up for this whole episode. Yeah.
I feel like as an audience, you have all these questions you want to ask. What are you doing? What are you up to? Why are you doing this? And you get to ask all those questions.
Yeah. And she is at a point where basically she's just decided that she's getting out.
Yeah. So we don't really know, as we always don't know, what her agenda is.
Yeah. I mean, she has this scene with Helena where Helena tries to give her a promotion, which feels to Cobell like bullshit.
Yeah, it's a job that doesn't really exist. Right.
A new position. And she senses that they are scared of something that she could, you know, do or say.
Yeah. And she decides to walk.
And so then when she runs into you she's basically packing up her rabbit yeah and getting out of there we don't know where she's going right but you stop her and uh you demand to know what's going on and i just love patricia's response in this scene me too are you? I thought you were quitting.

I trusted you.

I told you what I'd gone through

these past two years.

You...

You were in my house.

You...

I ate your shitty fucking cookies.

They convinced you to stay was a pineapple involved you're so easy to sway the truth comes out the chamomile cookies weren't particularly good as it turns out. And she knows all the lumen moves of the pineapple.
Yeah. And she's, she knows how to manipulate.
I mean, she's been studying this guy and kind of insulting him in this way is the perfect move. And we really don't know what her agenda is.
So then when you say, know something about gemma it's like where that scream comes from it's obviously part frustration part anger part i mean we don't know what what it is but yeah i mean there are cracks in her loyalties and in her armor that we saw the last thing she said to me in episode nine was get away from them,

whispered it in my ear. And so her not answering and holding the company line when I ask her some of these questions is super interesting.
Yeah. It almost feels like she knows something

that she's not telling you. Yeah.
And Mark sort of derives quite a bit from this. Yeah.
And then she just lets out the primal scream. The long pause that she takes.
I mean, I think she is really trying to communicate something to Mark there.

Yeah.

Right?

Before she runs you down.

Before she tries to murder me.

Great relationship they have.

Oh, man.

All right.

Well, before we go,

we should just check in with our friend Zach Cherry.

Oh, yeah.

To find out what he thinks is going to happen

in episode three. I can't move on from episode to episode without getting his predictions.
I'm so interested at what he's going to say here. So let's talk to Zach.
Hey, Adam. Hey, Ben.
Thanks for having me back. As you know, it's my job to sort of analyze and go deep and calculate everything that's going on and spit out a prediction about what's going to happen next.
So I'm sorry I didn't get it 100% right last time, but this time I'm definitely going to nail it. Next time on Severance.
based on that last scene where Miss Cobell and Mark have their little interaction with the car.

I think Miss Cobell and Mark have their little interaction

with the car, I think Ms. Cobell is going to be mandated to some court-ordered anger management classes, and she's going to end up coaching a group of rapscallions who go by the name of the Mighty Ducks, and she's going to take them all the way to the title.
Let's find out on episode three of Severance.

Wow.

Well,

all right. That's it, right? Yeah.
The Severance podcast with Ben and Adam will be back next week to talk about season two, episode three. That's right.
In real time here as the episodes play out. And you can stream every episode of Severance on Apple TV+, with new episodes coming out every Friday.
And then make sure you're listening to our podcast, which drops right after the episode airs. The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions.
If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform of choice. Our executive producers are Barry Finkel, Henry Malofsky, Gabrielle Lewis, Jenner Weiss-Berman, and Leah Reese Dennis.
This show is produced by Zandra Ellen, Ben Goldberg, and Naomi Scott.

This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Basil. We had additional engineering from Javi Krustas and Davey Sumner.
Show clips are courtesy of Fifth Season. Music by Theodore Shapiro.
Special thanks to the team at Odyssey. Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael LaVey, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney, and Hillary Schuff.
And the team at Red Hour, John Lesher, Carolina Pesikov, John Pablo Antonetti, Martin Valderutin, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Acker. And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin, and Christy Smith at Rise Management.

We had additional production help from Kristen Torres and Melissa Slaughter.

I'm Ben Stiller.

And I'm Adam Scott.

Thank you for listening.

And thank Kobelvig for not running Mark S over.

Good, yeah, good reaction there.