S1E8: What's for Dinner? (with John Turturro)

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Speaker 2 Adam,

Speaker 3 I want you to close your eyes and imagine you're working in Lumen's HR department.

Speaker 1 Okay, give me a second. It takes me 10 minutes to close my eyes.
Oh, wait, I did it right away.

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Speaker 1 Let me get into character here.

Speaker 1 I think they'd love it. It's efficient.
It's targeted. We can search words like cure lover and affinity for long hallways.

Speaker 3 Okay, you can open your eyes now. Oh, thank you.
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Speaker 4 Hey, I'm Ben Stiller.

Speaker 1 I'm Adam Scott.

Speaker 4 And this is the Severance podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance.

Speaker 1 Today, we're recapping season one, episode eight, What's for Dinner, written by Chris Black and directed by the one and only Ben Stiller.

Speaker 2 Ben,

Speaker 1 second to last recap, or as they say,

Speaker 1 penultimate recap of season one. How are you rating this show that you made overall on Rewatch? Scale one to 10?

Speaker 4 I'm not good at judging my own work. Okay.
So I have been enjoying,

Speaker 4 if I'm reading the process, I've been enjoying the process a lot.

Speaker 4 It's been fun to go back in, you know, and have the different experiences of watching the episodes with some time in between talking to everybody about them.

Speaker 4 Sometimes pleasantly surprised at something and other times looking at it and going, oh, I wish I did that differently too. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Always too.

Speaker 4 But overall, I think it's been great and fun. And I'm super excited too

Speaker 4 for today because of who's on our show.

Speaker 2 Yeah, me too.

Speaker 1 Me too. I think also re-watching the show with the intention of discussing it and digging into it is a different experience, too.
And that's been really fun as well.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah. And also as we roll into season two,

Speaker 4 kind of looking back at season one and thinking about all the things that we thought about when we were making season two

Speaker 4 and the little details from season one that sometimes I go, oh, there are actually some things I actually look at and go, wait a minute, I forgot we did that. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Maybe I shouldn't admit that, but there are.

Speaker 1 No, I see that stuff all the time and it's really fun. Also, just incidentally, I'd rate this episode of the podcast that we've done so far as a 12 out of 10.

Speaker 2 Wow. Yeah.
Wow.

Speaker 4 All right. That's great.
Maybe we should stop here. But no, it's going to get even bigger and better because Tuturo is coming up.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God. You're right.

Speaker 1 Today, we are joined by the legendary and Emmy Award-winning actor, writer, and director, John Toturo, who we know and love on Severance as Irving. John, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 1 Thank you for doing this. Thank you.

Speaker 2 It's a pleasure to be here.

Speaker 4 Very excited to have you here.

Speaker 2 So excited.

Speaker 4 As we were excited when you joined the cast back when we were starting the show.

Speaker 2 As was I.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that was a big thing for us when you said you were interested and we met and talked and I remember we had a nice

Speaker 4 we had a nice meal out in Brooklyn. Yes.
We talked about stuff.

Speaker 2 It's always good to read great material and I also, you know, sort of very grateful it had been thought of me in doing something that I hadn't done before.

Speaker 2 That's always a big incentive. and compliment.
And you say, well,

Speaker 2 I'm not sure how good I will be doing this thing, but I love to do things that I haven't done before. And I was a fan of

Speaker 2 a bunch of films that's been directed right from the beginning.

Speaker 2 Was it Reality Bites?

Speaker 4 Yeah, that was my first.

Speaker 2 That's right. Yeah.
I remember

Speaker 2 seeing that. And

Speaker 2 of course, I'm obsessed with the documentary of Tropic Thunder,

Speaker 2 which I consider a documentary.

Speaker 2 But so, you know, when we met and we talked with Dan and everything, I thought the scripts were, you know, excellent.

Speaker 2 And, you know, my major concern was, you know, who would be the apple of my affection.

Speaker 2 And then I suggested at the dinner Chris, because I've worked with Chris so many times. And

Speaker 2 I know Ben knows him. And I just

Speaker 2 really love.

Speaker 2 Something about Chris,

Speaker 2 the child that's sort of within him, with this man who has this great experience and he's very skilled too. And he's a, you have a lot of fun, we always have a lot of fun together.

Speaker 4 I mean, Chris being Chris Walken, Christopher Walken, the great Chris Walken.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Sir Walkin.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 I mean, that was pretty funny the way that all developed, you know, because we did have that dinner. And I remember at the dinner when we were talking, I think Dan Erickson was there.

Speaker 4 We talked about who might be Bert.

Speaker 4 And you mentioned Chris. And I just like secretly, I kind of just, there was like a little bit of a, I had a mini kind of explosion inside of me as you said it.

Speaker 4 And I was like, oh, this is great. And yeah, and then you said, like, I can reach out to him or I can, you know, see if he's.

Speaker 4 And I was like, all right, well, if you're going to do that, I'll be happy to, you know, do whatever, whatever we need to do.

Speaker 4 And I know Chris a little bit because my dad worked with him back in the 80s and

Speaker 4 in Hurley Burley, a play that Mike Nichols directed and Chris Walken and William Hurt and Sigourney Weaver and my dad Jerry Stiller and Harvey Keitel and just amazing cast.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 4 And Chris and my dad became very close during that. And I think knew each other over the years beforehand, too.

Speaker 4 But, you know, he's still Christopher Walken to me as a fan. I'm just always, you know,

Speaker 4 slightly intimidated. As honestly, John, I didn't really know you that well before we started working together.
And

Speaker 4 I was a little bit intimidated too, because I think you're a great actor and director. And, you know, I know you're very, like, like you're really serious about the work.
And

Speaker 4 that to me was

Speaker 4 exciting because I thought, okay, if you see something in this, you know, I was curious,

Speaker 4 what was it that you saw in it when you first read it? What was it that it was?

Speaker 2 I thought it was so original. I thought it was so original.
And I thought the characters were all really delineated really well.

Speaker 2 And I thought, you know, obviously you had put, you know, a lot of thought into it. And I thought, wow, if you have the right combination of people, you know, this could be really interesting.

Speaker 2 And, you know,

Speaker 2 the group that you put together, you know, of Adam leading and Britt and Zach and Trammell and Patricia, you know, it's a really good group. And everyone works really well together.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I've had plenty of experiences working with people who are wonderful actors. It's like a one-way street.

Speaker 2 You know, and when it's not that way, you can create this space between the characters, you know. And so to me, that's the most interesting thing.
And also getting to know people.

Speaker 2 You know, you don't know someone. I didn't.
know anyone really except for Chris. And so you learn how to work together and you start to say, oh, this is what the person likes.
And,

Speaker 2 you know, my job is sort of to bring all my homework and everything I do, but also to plug in to your brain and to Dan's brain to say, okay, this is what they're going for.

Speaker 2 You know, and it takes a little, you know, adjustment at times.

Speaker 2 You know, I always think at the beginning, everyone's nervous.

Speaker 2 And it doesn't matter who they are. They're nervous.
And you make choices. And sometimes the choices are too big.
They're too small. They're not brave enough.
know.

Speaker 2 And then once you establish that, then you can go a lot of different places, you know, and then you develop a shorthand.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I could tell a lot of times, okay, you know, you want a variation and okay,

Speaker 2 let me spin it this way, let me spin it that way.

Speaker 2 But so that's

Speaker 2 that's always a joy for me, you know, to discover, you know,

Speaker 2 the the chemistry between the people that I'm working with. And to me, that's maybe even more important or as important as a script.

Speaker 1 It was really fun over season one,

Speaker 1 particularly at the beginning with the four of us in MDR, I remember us, sort of getting to know each other and getting to know how each of us works and all of us starting to, like you said, like take some chances on whether it's too big or too small or whatever, but trying something out and knowing that we would be supported by the other three.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I watched that happen.
I mean, I think I felt it too as a director sort of starting to feel more comfortable. I remember the first few days,

Speaker 4 we were shooting some stuff in, I said, in the hallways or something, and you came in with the Irving voice. And

Speaker 4 I was like, and I didn't know you were going to do that voice.

Speaker 4 And I was, and so the first time I heard it, I was like, whoa,

Speaker 4 whoa. And it was really specific and it was really committed.
And I liked it, but I was also like, you know, it came out of nowhere. And, and

Speaker 4 I remember, I was like, okay.

Speaker 4 And something inside, you know, it's interesting, like as a director, you feel like sometimes you have to like kind of say something or you have to like check in on it. And I wasn't sure.

Speaker 4 Honestly, like the first time I heard, I wasn't sure. I was like, wow, this is like a really

Speaker 4 This is a really committed choice. Now, obviously, I wasn't not sure that you would be good doing it, but it was a choice.
And I, do you remember? Like, I had a little conversation.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I remember. Yeah.
Oh, yeah, I remember exactly. I remember exactly.
And I said, let me listen to it. And I listened to it.
And I said, you know what? I need to just pull that back a little bit.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And once I did that,

Speaker 4 but it was one of the things that I don't think I certainly don't think I gave you any direction on other than I said, are you like, is this like, tell me.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you sure? You said, are you sure? And I was like, I'm not sure of anything, really.

Speaker 2 But no, once I listened to it, I just thought, okay, you know, it's, you're still in a virginal state. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And I didn't want to, and as a director, I didn't want to like, because by the way, like, I once did that on a movie where I like, I did like a New York, like more of a New York accent, and the director like freaked out about it.

Speaker 4 And it got me, and I got really, I stood my ground. I was like, no, I'm going to do this.
And I don't know if he ever was like happy that I did it. And I don't even know if it worked.

Speaker 4 But I also know as an actor, I don't want to get, I don't want the director in my head, like questioning a choice I'm making because you want to to feel like, okay, like, let me go with this thing and explore it and not be self-conscious about it.

Speaker 4 And I swear, swear to you, by the end of the week, like I couldn't imagine the character sounding any other way. Yeah.
It was just, you know what I mean?

Speaker 4 By the end of the week, the first week of shooting. It was just like, okay, this is Irving.
And it's like, of course, this is Irving. Right.

Speaker 2 You know, right, right. It's, but that's, you know, we're all getting to know each other and someone's trying something.
And sometimes, you know, it's,

Speaker 2 I mean, there are times where people do things. You just go, well, that's out of the ballpark.

Speaker 2 That's not in the vicinity.

Speaker 2 I've been there. You know, you're like, whoa, I don't think this is going to, you know,

Speaker 2 but sometimes it's just the little adjustments.

Speaker 4 And also, there's so many questions about these characters that we don't know in terms of who their Audi is, you know, what their, what their outside life is, where they come from that we don't know as an audience intentionally.

Speaker 4 And then there's the, you know, the interaction, like you're saying, between the actors, which I think is such an important thing, what you're talking about, that chemistry, because that's really what makes something that works, I think, you know, that when that just happens.

Speaker 4 And you guys develop that. Right.
I remember also, there's a moment in episode three when you pull Mark aside and you say,

Speaker 4 we should take her to the perpetuity wing.

Speaker 2 Right. Right.

Speaker 4 And that was for me. And Adam, I know I remember talking to you because it was sort of very early on.

Speaker 4 There was such an intensity of belief, an understanding of why it was important to take her to the perpetuity wing that told me so much about Irving in terms of his

Speaker 4 commitment to the ideology or the

Speaker 4 Keir Lumen, you know, the rules and the mythology that you'd been taught and abided by and lived by.

Speaker 4 To me, that moment I was like, oh, this is why the show can work because John Toturo as Irving is saying you have to take her to Perpetuity Wing.

Speaker 4 And I believe him, that there's such a depth there that I don't even know if it was even there in the writing of that scene.

Speaker 2 Well, there was an opening to go down deep, you know, to go to descend in your elevator, you know, which is sort of a metaphor for acting.

Speaker 2 And sometimes, you know, when I've worked with different directors who are even, you know, great directors, I always think sometimes, well, what are they good at? And what is my job?

Speaker 2 What can I do to surprise them a little bit, to give them, you know, a gift back, you know, and because I think,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 that's kind of your job is to give them something that maybe they haven't thought of. Because they have to think of so many things.

Speaker 2 It would make, you know, Mark's character have to deal with this guy, you know, who has this kind of, you know, belief. Personally, I'm very afraid of cults.

Speaker 2 I really am afraid of them. You know, there are certain buildings I cross the street.
I go like, I don't want to be even in front of the building, you know?

Speaker 2 So it was fun to kind of delve into that.

Speaker 4 What was that like, Adam, for you when you were doing that scene?

Speaker 1 It was the first like real one-on-one time

Speaker 1 scene that I had with John, so I was nervous about it. But that kind of fervent stance he was taking there with the perpetuity wing, like you're saying, it was just crystal clear.

Speaker 1 This was everything to Irving. This was everything.
And it really helped me because I was still, you know, defining all the corners of Mark.

Speaker 1 And Mark had to be a believer in the place in order to, you know, become disillusioned with it.

Speaker 1 But he had to be in between someone like Irving and then someone like Dylan or Helly or something like that.

Speaker 1 So it really helped me kind of find the gradations of where Mark falls in the kind of loom and lore of it all. But yeah, I mean, it was just, I remember that as a big moment as well.
It's really fun.

Speaker 1 And it's really fun to watch.

Speaker 4 And also you say, you know, a gift that you give the director, which that's exactly what it is. But it's also obviously a gift for the audience, too, because everybody's getting to watch it.

Speaker 4 But there are these moments there that I think for me,

Speaker 4 you know, having spent a lot of time editing it. And so you look at the material and you look at the takes and all of that.

Speaker 4 As you know, as a director, you know, when you find that, okay, that take or that, that moment that you want to choose that just stick with me, like that moment in that scene.

Speaker 4 And there's, I can think of, you know, two or three or four other ones across the series that for me are sort of like those moments.

Speaker 4 Whenever I see them, I'm like so grateful that they're there because they just...

Speaker 4 I don't know, what is that thing when you see somebody have a moment that's real, that just pulls you into something in a way that there's no separation between what you're watching and what it is because it feels real

Speaker 4 even though it's a TV show that's you know crazy thing well I think you know there are

Speaker 2 the whole idea is to give it away you know obviously to the audience but I always think of like you're going to be in that room looking at all this footage so you know you want to give someone choices and as

Speaker 2 much complexity you know as is required yeah it's great and and maybe just before we start talking about the episode your relationship with with chris walk and you you guys have known each other for a long time and you've you've directed him a few times right i had worked with him as an actor once before in search and destroy right and we we we definitely got along and i've directed him three different times i directed him once as a as a theater critic like an oscar wilde critic in a luminata and he's a very interesting guy because he's he's confident but he's very humble.

Speaker 2 He's a very humble person. And, you know, it's easy to get something going between the both of you, you know, and

Speaker 2 I've seen him on stage when I was a student at, you know, Yale Drama School. And I've seen him do a lot of plays.
He's a really tremendously talented guy.

Speaker 2 I know everyone, you know, imitates him and stuff like that, but he's so sensitive. You know, you can just touch his hand and it's like electric.
So it's so easy to be in love with.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And watching you guys work on those scenes across the season was always such a treat to kind of watch how you guys interacted and just sort of played with each other and allowing just the energy to kind of develop.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Those scenes are just so special.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 John, I just wanted to go back to the beginning of the conversation. Just one thing I wanted to ask you.

Speaker 2 When you said that it was the show was something that you had never done before do you mean like the genre or the the the character what what were you referring to both both both the genre and the character and i thought oh this is something i i could sort of you know morph into you know i mean i love kind of

Speaker 2 you know the whole chameleon you know approach to something you know uh

Speaker 2 I love when someone asks me to do something that they haven't seen me do.

Speaker 2 And I feel like whenever I get that opportunity, it's always an exciting one.

Speaker 4 Maybe we should take a break and then come right back and then we can recap episode eight.

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Speaker 5 Hey everyone, I'm Josh Radner and I am so excited to tell you about how we made your mother, a rewatch podcast looking back at how I met your mother.

Speaker 5 And I'm here with Craig Thomas, who co-created the show along along with Carter Bays.

Speaker 1 Hi, Craig. Hey, Josh.
Somehow, it has been 20 years since the show premiered. I'm going to check the math on that.
10 years since it went off the air.

Speaker 1 And we thought that made this a perfect time to look back, see what the hell we did, and why the show still seems to resonate with fans around the world today.

Speaker 5 Follow and listen to How We Made Your Mother, wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 Okay, episode eight opens in Irving's home. So we're with his Audi.
He's drinking black coffee and cranking Motorhead's Ace of Spades and then just going to town on a painting.

Speaker 1 So this is sort of the Irving is super cool reveal in a sense.

Speaker 1 It is so satisfying to learn that this character we've been rooting for all season is super cool and interesting

Speaker 1 in the outside world.

Speaker 1 First of all, Ben, this motorhead song, Ace of Spades, how did that fit in? Or John, did you have something to do with it? Or

Speaker 2 no, I credit my director.

Speaker 4 You know, we knew we wanted to have a fun song.

Speaker 4 And, you know, like I was, I think I've said before, I have this sort of like severance playlist, you know, that over the course of the years, making the show that we create.

Speaker 4 And we're thinking of different fun, you know, high-energy songs. And that one just somehow felt right.

Speaker 4 And I think on a lot of levels, it kind of, it's interesting too, you know, when we start to learn more about Irving's backstory.

Speaker 4 but um john i remember when when we talked about this scene you were really specific about

Speaker 4 this process of of

Speaker 2 irving painting that you knew you had a sense of it in terms of i just remember you had a really clear idea of how how you wanted to do it well yeah i mean i was i was practicing a lot you know in my dressing room during the other episodes but uh

Speaker 2 i i have a lot of painters in my family and and things and i was thinking well here's this guy who's really regimented.

Speaker 2 And a lot of the times these people, they have a whole other life, you know, and I had done a lot of background stuff.

Speaker 2 But when you played that song, I thought, wow, this is great because I had the song and then I had been practicing the painting and how we would paint it.

Speaker 2 And you were telling me, you know, use your hands more, do that. As I've gotten, you know,

Speaker 2 more experience, sometimes you have these sequences where you don't talk, but you have something to do. And you you kept saying, you know,

Speaker 2 paint faster there and use your hands more with it. And more like an action painter, you know, and one of my uncles was an abstract painter.

Speaker 2 It was real, and he's also searching for something, you know, as he's doing.

Speaker 2 He's trying to figure something out at the same time. And I remember it was a really, I felt like a really great collaboration with him

Speaker 2 in that. And it was without words, but you gave me, you know, and I was like, okay, we're like rock and rolling now.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I felt that too. It was so much fun.

Speaker 4 And then honestly, the last part of it was Jeff Richmond, our editor, just when we put it together, he was so into it too, you know, and it just has such an energy to it.

Speaker 4 And yeah, says so much about Irving on the outside that without words.

Speaker 4 You know, that we all of a sudden we have a whole new character that we're, that we're meeting.

Speaker 4 And we see as you're squeezing out the black paint, that sort of black goo that really looks a lot like all those dreams we saw earlier.

Speaker 4 I got the info from Doug Coleman, who's our special effects person who Doug, by the way, I've worked with on movies over the years in New York is one of the prominent special effects people.

Speaker 4 He's also the guy who makes all our snow for real and all the other crazy actual practical effects in the show.

Speaker 4 And he said it's it's from Blair Adhesives, this company that is the same company that makes the slime for Nickelodeon. It's not the same material, not the same

Speaker 4 composite, but they obviously know how to make gooey, drippy stuff really well.

Speaker 4 By the way,

Speaker 4 I was talking earlier about some of those scenes where I have these memorable moments. The wellness scene, this is way back, I guess it's

Speaker 4 with Miss Casey.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Miss Casey.
Well, she was brilliant in the scene.

Speaker 2 And, you know, you think about what leaks in from his Audi, you know, obviously he has a vocabulary and stuff, but you're still in this kind of altered, childish state or childlike state.

Speaker 2 But I just thought she was so good.

Speaker 2 And the way you did it, I mean, it's a lot of these things are so challenging. And a lot of it has to do with how you listen and, you know,

Speaker 2 the point of view that you've developed to help your listener. Yeah.

Speaker 2 you know, from that. And he is starving.

Speaker 4 He's so happy when he hears certain like, yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, so much of this is really, you know, the only thing I think when I read it to and, you know, working on the show, there was this Kubrickian

Speaker 2 approach to it, you know, even Adam's character and how you, Ben, you know, went about it. And, you know, I

Speaker 2 never worked with Kubrick. I almost worked with Kubrick, but

Speaker 2 I didn't say the right thing

Speaker 2 to Stanley.

Speaker 1 Which

Speaker 2 movie. Well, I can talk about it.
It's over now. So

Speaker 2 he wanted me to be in Eyes Wide Shut. There was a character that Todd Field played eventually that was supposed to be in the beginning, the middle, and the end, but they cut the end.
And

Speaker 2 they said he was going to talk to me and he did call me up. And I had a two-hour conversation with him.
And I kept thinking, well, this is a joke. You know, it can't be Stanley Kubrick.

Speaker 2 And he was like, you know,

Speaker 2 I know every film you've ever made. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I said, well, I know all the films you made.

Speaker 2 And he said, you know, I wrote the part for you. And I think you're a really wonderful actor.
And I was embarrassed. And I said, well, thank you.
And he said, well, you are.

Speaker 2 And I said, well, I can't walk around my house telling my wife that I'm a wonderful actor, you know, because she'll hit me with a frying pan.

Speaker 2 And then at the end, he said, you know, how can I get you the

Speaker 2 script? It was in the 90s. I said, well, you could FedEx it to me.
And he said, well, what if you're not home?

Speaker 2 And I said, well, my FedEx man throws it over my gate.

Speaker 2 I said, I know him. His name is Ray.

Speaker 2 And he said, that's unbelievable. He goes, mine doesn't do that.
I said, well, do you talk to your FedEx man? He said, no, I don't know his name.

Speaker 2 So he said, okay, let's say you, I shouldn't go off any game. Let's say you get it, you read it.

Speaker 2 You like it. Then what do we do? I said, well, then we'll, you know, we'll work it out.
He said, but I heard next year you may do a film. This was a year away.
He says, you want to direct something?

Speaker 2 I said, well, I directed one film. I'm not a director.
I said, he said, yes, but what would we do? And I said, well, you know, we'd work it out, obviously. You know, whatever.

Speaker 2 I didn't say, you know, forget it. You're first.
That's what he wanted me to say.

Speaker 2 And after talking to him for two hours, the next day, they called me up and they said, Stanley said,

Speaker 2 you're not available. What? Because I wasn't available for two years.

Speaker 4 And you really, by the way, you really would have had to have been available for two years.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I would have been replaced, probably. A lot of people were replaced, but I wanted to see what that experience of the 100-take

Speaker 2 thing was. That's incredible.
But so when I was on this show, I kept thinking about that, it kept coming into my brain. I never really told you.
I was thinking, like, you know what?

Speaker 2 This is better anyway. I'm better off being here.

Speaker 4 The one decision I ever made that could compare with Stanley Kubrick favorably is that I hired you for this.

Speaker 2 Well, no, I'm telling you,

Speaker 2 it kept going through my brain because I certain,

Speaker 2 certain, you know, films.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think he's in, I think he's in all our brains, you know, in terms of just his influence on film.

Speaker 4 And I can't imagine what that's like to have Stanley Kubrick say to you, I wrote a part for you.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And then he asked me about all the actors.
What do you think of this person? What do you think of that person? Of course, I'm going to say, you know, they're good.

Speaker 1 All the actors, all the actors he was thinking of hiring or that he had all for I was.

Speaker 2 He had hired. Yeah.
He wanted to know about, you know, what I thought about Tom and everything. You know, I was like, you know, he's terrific.
I said, you know,

Speaker 4 that's amazing. That's amazing.
That's an amazing story. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 at least I had that experience. So I forget I share that with you.

Speaker 1 That was incredible.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 I want to ask. John, just what is it that you knew about your Audi kind of walking in, the conversations you and Ben and Dan had about it.

Speaker 2 Dan gave me a whole backstory, and

Speaker 2 I did a lot of research on that backstory to see, you know, what would be the remnants of that for his innings.

Speaker 2 And so, you know, I was looking forward to that, but then, you know, once we decided that he had a leather jacket and then Ben really liked the leather jacket and then he paints.

Speaker 2 And well, I figured he likes painting and he likes classical music and all that stuff. But when Ben put that song on, I was like, oh, man, this is great.
This is like the secret.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 This is the secret Irving, you know, who goes to the underground clubs and stuff.

Speaker 2 Who knows, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Who knows, you know? I mean, all of us have surprises.

Speaker 4 And that's, you know, that's the funny thing about this show, too, is like a lot of it is like, you know, we don't say what the backstory is, obviously, you know, for the audience.

Speaker 4 And, but there's also

Speaker 4 the influence of a wardrobe choice of, you know, right?

Speaker 4 Like all of a sudden it's like wait i was thinking this or you know here's and the feeling of what that is that even though it's all thought out ahead of time and incredibly specific

Speaker 4 i feel like these choices in the moment are can really affect everything too and you have to be open to that too

Speaker 4 that's right absolutely and that he has a dog that's really interesting to me too yeah radar radar yes your howdy likes your howdy likes the sound of radar we hear that episodes yeah yeah I mean, it's kind of the man with his dog.

Speaker 4 And that dog, by the way, is named Ditto, the actor. And Ditto

Speaker 4 is also known for being in succession. That's right.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 We had to work around his availability for the star.

Speaker 1 Okay, let's get into what the other folks at MDR are up to. Back in Lumen, Helly is scrambling to meet quota.

Speaker 1 John, did you have any personal theories while we were shooting or otherwise about what the numbers are, what they mean, what they're for?

Speaker 2 I would usually defer to Zach, and we'd have these discussions, you know, but Zach, of course, Zach had all the theories

Speaker 2 of those numbers or was enamored of those. Yes.
You know,

Speaker 2 I had various theories, you know,

Speaker 2 but obviously, like in anything, when you're like in a factory, if you're counting, you know, and you're trying to get to a certain number, you know, you may not know what that number actually means.

Speaker 2 You know, so,

Speaker 2 but I did have, but I would change it because I would talk to Zach.

Speaker 2 But I thought that was something important,

Speaker 2 you know, at least in the state that we were in, that they needed this information, that we were breaking it down,

Speaker 2 a certain kind of statistic that they needed.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you would think it's important.

Speaker 2 I had various scenarios.

Speaker 4 Yeah, and then when Helly hits 100%,

Speaker 4 there's the animated video of Kier Egan comes up, which is sort of like this really kind of rudimentary video screen animation.

Speaker 1 Like from Apple II era

Speaker 4 animation, yeah. That was Jeff Mann, who came on as a consultant who designed that, who I've worked with as a production designer over the years.
Incredibly.

Speaker 1 Love Jeff.

Speaker 4 Yeah, very, very talented guy. Because it's actually interesting to me.
I love, again, again, Irving's complete investment when he's watching the congratulatory, silly little video as if it's

Speaker 4 as if you're like meeting the Pope or something. I mean, it's so important.

Speaker 1 That's this fascinating thing about this moment is that even though we're all kind of banding together to rebel against this place, when this video plays,

Speaker 1 both Mark and especially Irving get really excited and have all this reverence for this guy in this video.

Speaker 4 And yeah, do you want to replay that little moment?

Speaker 4 I love you.

Speaker 4 But now I must away, for there are others who need me around the world. Goodbye, Heli R,

Speaker 4 and thank you.

Speaker 1 So, Ben, that voice, it sounds familiar.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 Some guy.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Well, it's not the real Kier Egan, because we hear the real Kier Egan recording in episode three

Speaker 4 in Petey's Head and in the Perpetuity Wing, but this is some actor that they hired to do the voice for the congratulatory animated video. Obviously, an out-of-work actor who needed the gig.

Speaker 1 Really needed to work.

Speaker 4 Probably a guy who had a couple of callbacks for severance, but couldn't get in.

Speaker 4 Sure.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Stuff really gets me, man.
I don't know what it is. I just listen to it.
I'm like, yeah, wow.

Speaker 2 It just gets me.

Speaker 4 But I also love at this point, like where Irving's arc really is, in my mind, when I look at it, like a guy who's a true believer

Speaker 4 who becomes

Speaker 4 disillusioned or whatever it is that allows you to make that choice to

Speaker 4 be a part of this sort of insurrection, if you will.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but you're right. It's a much tougher armor to pierce with Irving.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I think it's, you know, because, you know, what happens personally to him just sends him, you know,

Speaker 2 this is what happens to people sometimes who believe believe so much in something and then they

Speaker 2 get really disappointed, you know, and really let down. And

Speaker 2 that was a

Speaker 2 challenging thing to do. And

Speaker 2 I enjoyed doing it, but it was challenging. Yeah.

Speaker 4 All right. Let's take a quick break and we'll get into the waffle party when we come back.

Speaker 1 Adam,

Speaker 3 I want you to close your eyes and imagine you're working in Lumen's HR department.

Speaker 1 Okay, give me a second. It takes me 10 minutes to close my eyes.
Oh, wait, I did it right away.

Speaker 3 Okay, keep them close. If our partner, ZipRecruiter, was helping Lumen hire for various roles, how do you think HR would feel about ZipRecruiter's ability to search resumes quickly via keywords?

Speaker 1 Let me get into character here.

Speaker 1 I think they'd love it. It's efficient.
It's targeted. We can search words like cure lover and affinity for long hallways.

Speaker 3 Okay, you can open your eyes now. Oh, thank you.
So if you were actually a business owner and not an actor who plays a guy who works at a weird company, like you do in the show,

Speaker 3 ZipRecruiter has all these tools and features and more. And they're designed to make hiring faster and easier.

Speaker 3 So see for yourself when you try ZipRecruiter for free at ziprecruiter.com slash severance.

Speaker 1 ZipRecruiter excels at speed. It's smart technology.
Starts showing your job to qualified candidates immediately.

Speaker 1 And if you've got your eye on an exceptional candidate, you can use ZipRecruiter's invite to apply message to personally reach out to them.

Speaker 3 Yeah, see how much faster and easier hiring can be with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.

Speaker 1 You know what? Lumen should make ZipRecruiter a perk. It's way more fun than a finger trap.

Speaker 3 Finger traps are not even fun.

Speaker 1 No, I actually get legitimately claustrophobic when I use a finger trap. Yes.

Speaker 3 I know. Even the prop ones.
Totally. Because the finger traps are real.

Speaker 1 Freaks me out when I use it.

Speaker 3 You know what else is real? What? ZipRecruiter.com is real. So go to it, ziprecuiter.com slash severance right now to try it for free.
That's right.

Speaker 1 ZipRecruiter.com/slash S-E-V-E-R-A-N-C-E.

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Speaker 1 Okay, so it turns out when you meet quota, one person from MDR gets awarded a waffle party. Kobel asks Mark who should get it, and Mark suggests Dylan.

Speaker 4 I just have to say, Adam, the moment that starts that scene with you and Patricia, the laughing, you're laughing about something that was said right before the scene starts.

Speaker 4 And I remember we did it a few times, but

Speaker 4 there was one where we said, let's just try one where you're like laugh like for way too long.

Speaker 4 And just keep the uncomfortable laughing going with each other. And we used every second of it in the cut.

Speaker 4 I love that. It's just so uncomfortable and weird and

Speaker 4 sort of, you know, forced kind of camaraderie or whatever it is. And you have your agenda.
You know what you're doing. She's always kind of like sussing you out too.

Speaker 4 And the two of you are just sort of, you know, in your own worlds. But then.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's great.

Speaker 1 Yeah, watching it back, I had forgotten just how much laughing there was that kept in there.

Speaker 2 I remember

Speaker 4 she literally used

Speaker 4 every single second of it. And it's great.
And then she says, yeah, she kind of, you kind of tell her you want, you know, Dylan to take the waffle party because that's part of the plan.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And, you know, she's like, you can choose yourself if you want, because it's such a, you, we're starting to get the idea that the waffle party is a coveted event.

Speaker 1 And why would you choose someone else to do this? And so

Speaker 1 Mark's covering and

Speaker 1 just trying trying to convince her that Dylan deserves it because he's been working so hard.

Speaker 4 And also, that's also one of the

Speaker 4 phrases, a waffle party, you know, that Dan created

Speaker 4 along with any and outie and all those things that feel, they're so specific to the show.

Speaker 4 And I remember when the show finally went out into the world after working on it for a couple of years, you know, hearing people talking about a waffle party as some sort of like, what is a waffle party?

Speaker 4 And we've been talking about the waffle party earlier in the show, but then I remember thinking like, okay,

Speaker 4 what is the waffle party? And Dan and I had conversations about like, how far do you go with a waffle party? And what should that be?

Speaker 4 It's the ultimate perk, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Oh, it's kind of what everything is leading to.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, and he wants his waffle party, you know? I mean, everybody wants their waffle party. So

Speaker 4 when we when we got to that point of having to sort of visualize it and figure out what it was going to be, you know,

Speaker 4 I knew that it had to involve an actual waffle, of course.

Speaker 4 There would be waffle, and and then there would be some other element of other, you know, perks that were, you know, it's obviously there's like some, you know, these dancers come in, and that whole, I mean, just us figuring out how to choreograph that,

Speaker 4 how kind of

Speaker 4 seductive it would be, how risque,

Speaker 4 what was it insinuating.

Speaker 4 That was a kind of an inflection point, I remember, because it's almost like one of the first questions we had to answer that we'd put out there in terms of like, you know, you could just be thinking forever, what is a waffle party?

Speaker 4 But we had to somehow show it. And I remember being a little bit concerned that like people would,

Speaker 4 again, would buy it, would feel like that's, okay, you know, is that too weird? Is it too, is it inappropriate?

Speaker 2 I don't know. The whole thing is just so, you know.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 1 it does have a real sexual charge to it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 It has a very risque

Speaker 1 kind of overall tone to it. And

Speaker 1 it's, I always thought of it as, you know, you toil away for this whole time and then you kind of, you, you meet quota, so you get this reward.

Speaker 1 And since the entire place and the entire culture of Lumen is devoid of any affection or,

Speaker 1 you know, anything that is even anywhere near sex or anything, but these are feelings that all of them probably have and don't understand.

Speaker 1 This is the ultimate reward that they can engage and just sort of let themselves

Speaker 1 be a part of this. Is that in the realm of what

Speaker 1 you guys were thinking?

Speaker 4 I thought so. I thought that would be part of it, these human instincts that they're sort of deprived of.

Speaker 4 I mean, that's a big part of the Bert and Irving relationship, I think, too, is the sort of, you know, there's two moments between you when, you know, the first time when you go to O and D and Burt, you know, sort of touches your hand and

Speaker 4 Irving sort of gets a little bit freaked out by it and leaves.

Speaker 4 And then the second time when you're back at O and D and you move to touch his hand, and then in the moment in six, that, you know, that Aoife directed so well between the two of of you when you

Speaker 2 in the plant room that energy I think if you know if you're starved for any kind of you know connection

Speaker 2 these things rituals take on a stronger resonance you know and obviously other people do you know too you know and that's what happens when when you deny someone you know whatever state they're in as like in a prison story too same same thing yeah

Speaker 1 it's also also interesting that there's a sexual charge to the dance, but the dance also has a dangerous feeling to it. So it's almost like, you know, be careful.

Speaker 1 Here you go, but you need to move with caution as well. Yeah.

Speaker 4 So these dancers, we tried to figure out how to visualize this thing.

Speaker 4 And we worked with a great choreographer named Taro Rodriguez, who

Speaker 4 really came up with this very unique dance that sort of embodied all the weirdness that we were looking for.

Speaker 1 And the masks. Do you want to talk about the masks that they're wearing, Ben?

Speaker 4 I guess we could. I mean,

Speaker 4 they're so weird.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 4 I hadn't watched 8 for a while when I watched it for this. And

Speaker 4 for a second, I had forgotten that Dylan had the Keir Egan mask waiting for him on the bed, which just not not having watched it for a couple of years, the

Speaker 4 just like we really went for it in terms of just the weirdness of this whole, whatever this ritual was going to be that he ends up, you know, walking out on.

Speaker 4 But the masks were made by this artist that we work with on the show named Planko Patakanov, who is just incredibly talented.

Speaker 4 And I remember we were shooting, John, I'm sure you remember this location. We shot the Keir Egan

Speaker 4 replica house in a real old Victorian house in Yonkers, New York that is part of the Hudson River Museum. And we shot there.
We shot everything we were going to shoot there for the whole series.

Speaker 4 So, you know, the first, I guess, episode three, all those scenes we shot there in the same couple of days that we shot for episode eight.

Speaker 4 And we didn't get to, and I think you probably had gone home by that point, John, but it was the last night we were there.

Speaker 4 And I think it was like one or two o'clock in the morning that we finally got to shooting the waffle party dance.

Speaker 4 And the dancers had been waiting all day and we were at the very end of our schedule and we had to get it done.

Speaker 4 I remember we only had a few takes to get it done and those dancers came in and they nailed it. They were so good and they were so prepared.

Speaker 4 And it was really that energy of like, okay, we got to get this. And, you know, they're going to, they're going to kick us out of here in half an hour.
And it was really, really exciting and fun.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I was wrapped, and I came, I stayed to watch the Waffle Party, and it was incredible. They were so on point.
It was really impressive.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think they were going to kick us out of there because the Gilded Age was shooting there the next day or something. Is that right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I saw a rehearsal of it. I remember thinking about it.
Yeah. Wow.

Speaker 4 Anyway, that was a really fun, weird scene. And watching it, having not watched it for a while, I was like, oh, yeah, this is weird and a little bit out there.

Speaker 1 Should we talk about the egg party?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 4 I mean, this is basically the celebration for reaching 100%.

Speaker 4 And Dylan is going to go get his waffle party, but they have a pre-waffle party egg mixer social type thing.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 what always makes me laugh about this every time I watch it is that the party consists of the same four people who've just been working together. It's just, they change the lights.

Speaker 4 They put on some, you know, some kind of tiki music,

Speaker 4 and it's just the four of you having to hang out with each other. And yet it is kind of like a party because you like split off into groups.

Speaker 1 But now with eggs.

Speaker 4 And I am not an egg person. Do you like eggs, John?

Speaker 2 I do, but I don't like to, you know, hold them in my hand. But they came in.

Speaker 2 But I like to like make different, you know, omelets and things like that.

Speaker 4 Kat Miller, our props master, she came in with a food stylist and created these crazy different egg concoctions, like giant deviled egg within an egg.

Speaker 2 Yeah, scotch eggs. Yeah.
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 I like deviled eggs.

Speaker 4 Ah, well, that worked for you for the scene because I was staying as far away as possible during shooting.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you, you really don't like eggs.

Speaker 4 I have no problem, and Christine will make fun of me about this. I have no problem with eggs in something I eat.

Speaker 4 It's just the actual, I don't want to eat an egg on its own okay like you can put it in a cake batter or whatever i'm not you know i'm not vegan um i i just don't like the actual egg situation but that party is like everybody starts kind of going off into groups which is basically helly and dylan are talking and then irving kind of goes over to the kier egan portrait and you have this kind of uh how would you describe it it's sort of a private moment where you uh

Speaker 2 it's like a reverse prayer you know it's it's almost like what you normally go to pray or something, you know, and then I guess I put the egg inside of my

Speaker 2 manual, the book, where all the laws are, the Bible of Lumen, and then crush it. I remember I was holding that egg for a long time.
You know,

Speaker 2 it's part of his sort of rebellion.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And that's a turning point for Irving.
And I mean, I guess we had the turning point earlier in seven where Irving says, let's burn this place to the ground.

Speaker 4 But this this is sort of, you know, the next nail in the coffin where almost directly to Kier Egan's face, you sort of defy him.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, Kier Egan, I mean,

Speaker 2 the actor you cast is

Speaker 4 that's genius. He's great.

Speaker 2 I mean, I'm in the show and I saw it and I was like, oh my God, no wonder I was a believer.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 He's amazing.

Speaker 4 His name is Mark Geller. Yeah, Mark Geller.
And

Speaker 4 he's so, so, so much a part of the show and so committed to the show. And he's just great.

Speaker 4 But yeah, the Waffle Party, pre-Waffle Party

Speaker 4 egg social is also where Mark and Helly kind of connect with each other and have sort of a final check-in before the plan goes into action.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's kind of the first time we let each other know that we have feelings for each other.

Speaker 4 And this is sort of where everybody sort of... does the gut check and says, all right,

Speaker 4 let's go and sort of all systems go and are we all still up for this? Let's take a listen to that.

Speaker 2 Now,

Speaker 2 it's likely we'll all wake up around. People could be driving or skiing, whatever we do up there, so be ready for anything as you go up the elevator, okay?

Speaker 2 The important thing is you find someone it seems you can trust, and you tell them everything.

Speaker 2 And we don't know how long Dylan will be able to give us, so we can't get distracted digging into our lives. Right, and we should

Speaker 2 I probably should have told you guys

Speaker 2 But uh I

Speaker 2 get this

Speaker 2 and there was a part of it that

Speaker 2 well

Speaker 2 Our job

Speaker 2 is to taste free air

Speaker 2 Your so-called boss may own the clock that taunts you from the wall. But my friends, the hour is yours.

Speaker 2 Page 197 slaps.

Speaker 1 It's so much fun watching Irving now on the other side of this big betrayal have such a shift in tone from those 107 scenes in the closet when he was so just sort of appalled by these, you know, burgeoning plans and feelings that everyone was having about Lumen.

Speaker 1 So what happens next, Ben?

Speaker 4 So basically, everybody goes, you go to the elevator, you say what could be your goodbye to the group, which is, let's find out what's for dinner, which, which is sort of, I always thought that was kind of Irving's catchphrase, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, what's for dinner? What's for dinner?

Speaker 4 And that was, that scene in the first episode was really one of my favorite scenes when I read that.

Speaker 4 That was made me want to do the show too, was that whole interchange about breaking down what that meant when Irving says, hey, kids, what's for dinner?

Speaker 4 Because it means you're the worst dad in the world if you're asking your kids, what's for dinner.

Speaker 4 Anyway, it was so funny to me. So you all kind of go up and then, you know, Dylan is

Speaker 4 left in the control room, security room, and has to figure out how to...

Speaker 4 basically, you know, turn these two knobs that are going to activate the overtime contingency. And it's uh very very

Speaker 1 tense and we build up to it and then the episode ends right when he hits the switch and we don't know what's going on yeah it's it's the the uh the cliffhanger before the cliffhanger at one point ben you i think i remember you mentioning like are is this cliffhanger going to be too suspenseful for us to then follow it with one the the next one needs to be i did i remember when

Speaker 4 yes i remember when we we edited the episode i was like oh this is a cliffhanger I hope the next cliffhanger tops that cliffhanger because this is like a real cliffhanger.

Speaker 4 And then, of course, nobody ever really talked about the episode eight cliffhanger because they felt the episode nine cliffhanger was the real cliffhanger.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but it's but it's embedded in the future. Yes, for sure, for sure.

Speaker 4 It's also like, I feel like that sort of like basic idea when you do a television show, too, is like you want people to want to watch the next episode. You want to keep the story engaging.

Speaker 1 Hey, John, I just wanted to ask you, you know, Irving and Dylan have such a fun rapport and relationship. I just wanted to ask you about working with Zach real quick.

Speaker 2 I have to say, Zach is a big surprise. I said this to Ben, too.

Speaker 2 And I know we're not supposed to talk about season two, whatever, but to see Zach sort of blossom, you know, at first I thought, well, he's this really funny guy.

Speaker 2 And then he has all this other dimension to him as an actor and Dylan as a character. And one of my favorite things is, you know, when he explodes and he bites Milchick.

Speaker 2 I don't know why, but it makes me laugh so much because it's a rebellion you know but i really think uh zach is a is like a special guy it's it's hard not to kind of you know really really uh

Speaker 2 want to put your arms around him you know and uh and i think his character is really interesting you know where he's going and that that ben gave him this opportunity i mean I think there are directors who do that.

Speaker 2 They see people and they put them there.

Speaker 2 And the same thing with Britt. And I think Ben has a great eye for that.
And I have to say, I was really

Speaker 2 impressed.

Speaker 2 He surprised me in a lot of different ways, pleasantly.

Speaker 2 And I think he's going to, you know, he's a terrific part of the show.

Speaker 4 First of all, I think as actors, we all have that thing where there's a director who...

Speaker 4 you know, is willing to give you a shot in some way. But I wasn't giving Zach a shot because he's like incredibly, incredibly, you know, accomplished actor, comedic actor.

Speaker 4 But he, you know, we've talked about it. He didn't really have material like this that he'd worked on before.
But the fun thing for me was

Speaker 4 knowing who Zach is and knowing who you are. Like, I was just like, okay, Zach Cherry is going to be sitting next to John Taturo.
What's going to happen here? Because he's, you know.

Speaker 4 And I think over the course of the eight or nine months of shooting, a lot of great stuff happened there that I never in a million years would have imagined.

Speaker 4 I love, love the relationship between between you two.

Speaker 2 It's just

Speaker 2 a pleasure, really.

Speaker 1 And that brings us to the end of episode eight of the Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam. What's for dinner?

Speaker 4 John, thanks, man.

Speaker 2 This was

Speaker 4 so much fun talking to you about this stuff. And next one, we'll talk about the Knicks and we'll see where we are at that point.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 The Severance Podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions.

Speaker 4 If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform of choice.

Speaker 4 Our executive producers are Barry Finkel, Henry Malofsky, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and Leah Rhys-Dennis. The show is produced by Xandra Ellen and Naomi Scott.

Speaker 4 This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Basil. We have additional engineering from Javi Cruces and Davey Sumner.

Speaker 1 Show clips are courtesy of fifth season. Music by Theodore Shapiro.

Speaker 1 Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, Maura Curran, Eric Donnelly, Michael LeVey, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kurt Courtney, and Hilary Schuff.

Speaker 4 And the team at Red Hour, John Lesher, Carolina Pesakov, Jean-Pablo Antonetti, Martin Valderudin, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Ager.

Speaker 1 And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin, and Christy Smith at Rise Management.

Speaker 4 We also had additional production help from Gabrielle Lewis, Ben Goldberg, Stephen Key, Kristen Torres, Emmanuel Hapsis, Marialexa Kavanaugh, and Melissa Slaughter.

Speaker 1 I'm Adam Scott. I'm Ben Stiller.
And we will see you next time.