#166 Diana Pasulka - Religious History, UFO Phenomena and the Ancient Mysteries of Purgatory

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Speaker 3 Diana Posulka, welcome to the show.

Speaker 7 Thanks for having me.

Speaker 3 Hey, it's an honor to have you here. I've been

Speaker 3 trying to get you here for quite a while now and had a,

Speaker 3 man, I just got in her, I don't even remember the first person that introduced me to

Speaker 3 kind of what you're doing, but it's been, I've been getting hit from all angles. Wow, really? Yeah, definitely, definitely.
And

Speaker 3 I'm,

Speaker 3 I'm, I've been really looking forward to this interview. Um, you know, I grew up Catholic.
I'm into UFOs. I want to, I can't wait to dive in here.

Speaker 3 Um, so I've been looking forward to this for a long time. So I just, I just want to say thank you for making the time.

Speaker 7 And oh, it's my pleasure. Absolutely.

Speaker 3 So, um, but let me give you a quick introduction here. Okay.

Speaker 3 You're a writer, professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, Wilmington.

Speaker 3 You have authored a series of books, including American Cosmic UFOs, Religion, and Technology, Heaven Can Wait, Purgatory in Catholic Devotional Culture, and Encounters, Experiences with Non-Human Intelligences.

Speaker 3 You've been a guest on several prominent podcasts, such as the Joe Rogan Experience and the Lex Friedman podcast.

Speaker 3 And you've served as consulting producer on the Emmy Award-winning Netflix series Encounters. You are also the religion consultant on The Conjuring and was featured in the J.J.
Abrams docuseries, UFO.

Speaker 3 You spent your career teaching and writing about American religious history and Catholic history, including studying at the Vatican Archive. Sounds fascinating.

Speaker 3 Your research connects religion, technology, and now the

Speaker 3 enigmatic realm of the UFO phenomena. Now, you find yourself working with scientists and military personnel on the topic, something you never thought you'd be doing when you began your career.
And

Speaker 3 you're a Christian believer and a mother. Probably the most important things, right?

Speaker 3 Yes, yes, yeah. Welcome to the show.

Speaker 7 Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 3 So, everybody starts off with a gift.

Speaker 3 Oh, right.

Speaker 7 Wow, thank you.

Speaker 3 A little something for the ride home

Speaker 7 oh thank you for giving me two because i have a lot of kids so we'll give you some more

Speaker 7 they'll love this thank you so much i appreciate it i think my son wanted me to have a gun but i don't know about that do you want a gun no i'm just joking all right

Speaker 3 well diana

Speaker 3 We were just having a conversation right before we started recording, and I was going to start this interview in the year of 2012, but it sounds like you had an experience as an 11-year-old girl.

Speaker 7 That's right.

Speaker 3 Let's start right there. Okay, sure.

Speaker 7 Yeah. So it was when I was 11 that I decided to do what I'm doing now, which is looking at religion.
But most specifically then, I wanted to read the Bible,

Speaker 7 which I did. So I had an experience.
So in my upbringing, my parents were secular, right, Christian, right?

Speaker 7 So

Speaker 7 that means that we didn't have a Bible in the house. We celebrated Christmas, you know, and that type of thing.
So I had never read it. I had never read the Bible.
And

Speaker 7 I didn't actually know the story of Jesus. I knew, of course, Jesus Christ, everybody does, but I actually didn't know the story.

Speaker 7 So it was on an Easter and I was, you know, doing Easter eggs at the table and the TV was on and Franco Zephyri's Jesus of Nazareth was on the TV.

Speaker 7 So I was somewhat watching it, but not really paying attention. And I was, you know, doing the Easter eggs.
And at some point,

Speaker 7 there was the scene where the mob is just about to kill this woman. So there's this mob of men, and it's this woman who's an adulterer, and they're going to stone her to death.

Speaker 7 And of course, it's super dramatic. And I'm, you know, doing the Easter egg, and I look at that, and Jesus is writing something in the sand.

Speaker 7 And I'm like, well, he's got to stop this you know what's this is terrible and so he looks up and he says those among you with sin cast the first stone and that that converted me somehow somehow to me that was something that reversed the law because it was the law that she be stoned but he reversed it and I thought I was a pretty serious kid and I knew that you know people did bad things and, you know, there were that, there was bad in the world.

Speaker 7 So to me, this could be something I thought this was hopeful. This was like a person who provided some type of hope.

Speaker 7 So I decided that I'd watch the show because it started on Friday and I believe that was probably Friday night and kept going on Saturday and then ended on Sunday, Easter Sunday.

Speaker 7 And so I kept watching and my parents thought it was strange because I never really cared about that stuff before. But every day I woke up and I was like, I'm going to watch this show tonight.

Speaker 7 And now this sounds ridiculous, but it's actually true. I didn't know that he was crucified at the very end.
So at the very end, he gets crucified.

Speaker 7 And to me, it was devastating because, you know, I couldn't believe it. I was like, wow, he actually

Speaker 7 provided some hope to these people and now he's being crucified. So my mom was observing this and thought it was really strange.
I had tears.

Speaker 7 And so the next day, I made my mother take me to a Bible store to buy the Bible. She didn't know what to get, you know, so we asked the clerk, you know, this is my first Bible.

Speaker 7 In fact, it's our only Bible, you know, what

Speaker 7 should we get? So we got this red letter edition of the King James Version of the Bible. And the red letter edition, for people who don't know, it's the edition that has Jesus's words all in red.

Speaker 7 And to me, that was exactly what I wanted. So we got the red letter edition.
I brought it home, started reading it right away from beginning, beginning, right?

Speaker 7 Now you have to understand that my grandparents were Catholic, right? So they had Bibles, but my parents were just agnostic. They were not, they didn't go to church, right?

Speaker 7 So I started to read the Bible and

Speaker 7 immediately I could tell that it was,

Speaker 7 it wasn't an easy read. Okay, it's not an easy read.
For anybody who just cracks it and decides, okay, what does this book really say?

Speaker 7 It's hard to read. So some parts were easy to read, like the red letters, right? Easy to read.
But like the Old Testament, Hebrew Bible, Genesis, that kind of thing.

Speaker 7 I could tell that it was an ancient text. And so I made it my goal then, I became Christian.
So I decided I'm a Christian. I don't know what my parents are, but I am now.
And,

Speaker 7 you know, I asked my parents to take me to different churches, whatever church was a Christian church. You know, I was 11.

Speaker 7 So it was a full-on religious conversion that I had that I didn't recognize until later.

Speaker 7 And I said, I want to grow up and I want to go to school or whatever needs to happen so that I can read this book in its original language because I could tell it had been translated.

Speaker 7 And so I finally got that. I did it.
So that's what I did.

Speaker 7 It was a rocky kind of trip there, but I finally went to the, I went to a Catholic school, which is where at that point, nuns were running the school. So it was a really good school.

Speaker 7 I graduated really early when I was 16. I did go to college, and then I went to the Jesuit School of Theology, which is a school where you can do an academic degree with priests.

Speaker 7 So, priests were my peers. So, I went to school with priests' information to be priests.
So, I got an education that priests get. And then, after that, I got my PhD.

Speaker 7 And I've been doing this ever since.

Speaker 3 So, wow. So, you literally started at age 11.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I still have the same Bible, too.

Speaker 3 Man, that's crazy. That's, that's awesome.
I mean, it's pretty profound for an 11-year-old.

Speaker 7 Yeah, it did freak my parents out, to tell you the truth. They thought it was odd, but my, my father was more okay with it.
He's passed away.

Speaker 7 But my mother, I felt like she, she was worried about me. You know, she was, you know, she thought maybe I'd.

Speaker 7 She thought I'd become a nun. And I actually know nuns and they're good people.
And I keep thinking, that's not such, that's not the worst case path.

Speaker 3 There's definitely

Speaker 3 worse career paths than being a nun.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Wow.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 7 Well,

Speaker 3 I know that,

Speaker 3 so as I mentioned, I grew up Catholic and

Speaker 3 still go back every now and then. I've got a lot of questions.
But

Speaker 3 you started studying purgatory in 2012. And so

Speaker 3 could you describe purgatory for the audience, for the people that don't know?

Speaker 7 You bet, sure. So I started it earlier than that.
So it was something that I started as soon as I became an assistant professor. And this was in 2002, 2003.

Speaker 7 And in order to keep that job, you have to publish, which is normal for a professor.

Speaker 7 I was interested in,

Speaker 7 you know, ideas of the afterlife and the soul. These things interested me.
And in the Catholic tradition, which is what I was trained in, there's this thing called purgatory.

Speaker 7 And this is also Eastern Orthodox. So most Christians that are not Protestant believe in this thing, this thing called purgatory.

Speaker 7 And it's like a way station for souls that aren't good enough to go to heaven. Okay.
So if you are a normal person, not the best person, but not the worst person, you're not going to hell, right?

Speaker 7 So you go to this place called purgatory where

Speaker 7 it's supposed to be a place of purgation where you work off your sins and then that soul goes to heaven. Well, this was a doctrine of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.

Speaker 7 And it somehow went away. So it's still a doctrine, but Catholics don't know about it and they don't pray for souls that are in purgatory anymore.
It used to be a huge devotion.

Speaker 7 And I wanted to know why it disappeared. So I started to do archival research.
So archives are old, are libraries of old manuscripts and books from ancient times to the present.

Speaker 7 And there's some really great archives in the United States and of course at the Vatican.

Speaker 7 So I started to look in these archives for what Catholics in 1200 and 1300, you know, throughout time thought of purgatory basically.

Speaker 7 And as I was doing that work, I was looking, you know, I was writing a book, like a survey of purgatory. Well, it turns out purgatory was actually a place in Ireland.

Speaker 7 So there's actually a place, it's still there.

Speaker 7 It's on a plate on an island called Loch Derg, which is Red Lake, the Red Lake in Ireland.

Speaker 7 And it was a place where people thought that they could go to a cave and if they withstood it for 24 hours, their souls would be cleansed after that.

Speaker 7 And they did this in the late medieval time period to about 1200.

Speaker 7 So

Speaker 3 they thought that

Speaker 3 if they could handle being in a cave for 24 hours?

Speaker 7 Is there anything substantial about this particular cave yeah yeah so this cave would have um demons and things like that in it so you have to you have to uh survive being assaulted by beings of the afterlife in this cave like this so for the medieval mind they don't separate out like

Speaker 7 demons and angels and stuff. Those were part of their reality.

Speaker 7 So this cave was the place where they could go to an underground area where they could have these battles. And if they survived those battles, their sins would be forgiven.

Speaker 7 And that's not the only purgatory cave. There was one in Italy as well.
So this was where the doctrine kind of like emerged from. And then it became an actual doctrine.

Speaker 7 And then as time went on, people started to think of it not as a place, but as a state of being. So that's how purgatory changed.
And I wrote that book. So I I wrote that book.

Speaker 7 But during the study of that book, I came upon aerial phenomena. So Catholics from 1200 up to 1800 saw things in the sky that they couldn't identify.

Speaker 7 If they did identify, usually you can see it right in the reports too. They're like, we saw this orb.

Speaker 7 We don't know what it is, but we think it's a soul from purgatory. So we're going to pray it back.
to where it should go. And so I started to collect these.

Speaker 7 Sometimes they saw things and they interpreted them as like flying houses, things in the sky.

Speaker 7 Sometimes they saw things and they thought they were angels. And so I had a lot of these and I didn't understand what they were.

Speaker 7 So I kind of put them aside and I wrote my book on purgatory and I got that all done, right?

Speaker 7 And so I had all of these things and

Speaker 7 And I was on to my next book, by the way, about a Catholic bishop. So I wasn't really going to write about those things, but I still thought that they were weird enough.

Speaker 7 And there were so many of them. The patterns were the same.
So I showed a friend of mine and he looked at them and he said,

Speaker 7 These look like Steven Spielberg films. They look like UFOs.
And honestly,

Speaker 7 I thought he was crazy. And I was like, no way, those are not UFOs.
But a UFO conference was happening in my town that week. So we went to that.

Speaker 7 And that's where I met people who had sightings of UFOs. And

Speaker 7 and it looked like a pattern match so what I heard them talk about this and I was like

Speaker 7 this looks exactly like the Catholic reports that's when I began to do this study into UFOs that happened in 2012

Speaker 3 before we go into the UFO stuff I'm actually very interested in the purgatory stuff so what do you what do you think okay so the purgatory originated as a cave well that was one of its caves that was one of its practices so

Speaker 7 if you look at the Catholic history of purgatory, the kind of like official idea,

Speaker 7 it basically says,

Speaker 7 Catholics, we don't know

Speaker 7 the Pope would say. We don't know what it is.

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Speaker 7 they tend to try to say it's not a physical place where these souls end up right

Speaker 7 but they don't know what it is is it a spiritual place they tend to say it's a state of mind or a state of being so i i would look at it like a state of being for the soul so it's a realm yeah like a realm like another dimension or something like that.

Speaker 7 We would call it, like when you and I talk, I'd say,

Speaker 7 Sean, it's another dimension. You know, it's another dimension.
My soul hopefully will go there. You know,

Speaker 7 I, I'm not saying I'm good enough to get into heaven, right? But I'm hoping for purgatory kind of things. Like that, that's what, because I believe in the soul.

Speaker 7 I also want to say this, that I should have said this earlier, that the things that I'm going to say are my own opinion based on what I've studied and how I've lived, and they don't reflect my university.

Speaker 7 So my university is a state university. It's not going to be, you know, I won't be publishing a peer-reviewed paper talking about the reality of the soul, but I believe in it.

Speaker 7 So I'm a believer, absolutely.

Speaker 3 So you believe in purgatory?

Speaker 7 Probably not like it's described. by the Catholic Church.
I believe that the soul continues.

Speaker 7 And I believe that what, and by the way this is based on not just what I see in Catholicism I do comparative religious studies so what I've read stuff from ancient Egypt and I've read stuff from Hinduism you know and Buddhism things like that what almost everything I read about within these religions and people too that I've spoken with so you know I have a lot of friends who have PhDs in various fields and I ask them you know about what they know about this

Speaker 7 it appears that this even goes back to Plato, by the way, and Socrates. This is the Greek tradition, the philosophical tradition.

Speaker 7 What happens to a soul after it dies, you know, after the body dies, is determined largely by what one does in one's life.

Speaker 7 So I take that very seriously.

Speaker 3 Yeah, me too. Me too.

Speaker 3 Does the Bible...

Speaker 3 Is purgatory anywhere in the Bible?

Speaker 7 Is it anywhere in the Bible? No, no, the word purgatory is nowhere in the Bible.

Speaker 7 It actually wasn't even codified until the 1200s. So that's late.
So Jesus dies in 30. Well, heck, that's like a long time after Jesus's.

Speaker 7 But there are references to praying for souls that presumably are in another.

Speaker 7 like another place in the Bible. So there are references to that, but it's not called purgatory.

Speaker 3 What is that called?

Speaker 7 So there's in the book of Daniel, there's references to

Speaker 7 prayers said for souls that have passed on.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 there are also, I'm trying to remember in the New Testament where this is. I will have to give that to you because for some reason I used to know it, but I'm not.

Speaker 7 But yeah, but no, in the Bible, there's nothing that references purgatory.

Speaker 3 So I got another question for you.

Speaker 3 If it's not in the Bible, should we be paying attention to it at all?

Speaker 7 Okay, so if it's not in the Bible, should we be paying attention to it?

Speaker 3 Because there's a lot of like

Speaker 3 and I can't really think of anything like off the top of my head. This is all kind of new to me.

Speaker 7 Yes, yes, of course.

Speaker 3 You know, like you, like you said at the beginning, I can't even remember if this is on or off camera, but you were most Catholics don't even know their own religion. Yeah, no, it's true.

Speaker 7 It's kind of sad.

Speaker 3 But that's a lot of us. But

Speaker 3 which is kind of why, you know, part of the reason why I stepped away and started looking for other sources. But,

Speaker 3 you know,

Speaker 3 I've been talking to a lot of people about

Speaker 3 God, Jesus, the Bible.

Speaker 3 And, you know, it seems to be there's a lot of little

Speaker 3 things that different religions believe in that have absolutely

Speaker 3 no reference in the Bible.

Speaker 7 Okay, so I will tell you what I think, Sean.

Speaker 7 You may not like it.

Speaker 7 Okay.

Speaker 7 There are things that are not in the Bible that we should pay attention to. Okay.
And I'm going to talk about that. So remember when we talked about how purgatory was codified in the 1200s?

Speaker 7 The Bible wasn't even codified until the fourth century. So this is going to be 300 years

Speaker 7 to be more conservative. This is going to be 200 years after Jesus dies.
So the early Christians, they did not have a Bible.

Speaker 7 Okay, they didn't have what you and I have, what I was so interested in when I was 11.

Speaker 7 And when you start to do biblical scholarship, like really get into, and I want to preface this too, in religious studies,

Speaker 7 we don't have an agenda. So we don't, we're not advocating a religion for any religion.
We study it.

Speaker 7 And this was as clean as I could get when I decided to do this because I was like, I just want to know.

Speaker 7 Like, I'm interested in this guy, Jesus, and I want to know what life was like for him and his followers. And so that entailed doing biblical scholarship.

Speaker 7 And in the way that I went to school, which is this place called the Graduate Theological Union, which is the divinity school of UC Berkeley, there are

Speaker 7 every kind of Christian denomination is there almost. So you've got, you know,

Speaker 7 Episcopal, you've got Catholics, you've got every kind of Catholic, Dominican and Franciscans, and you also have people affiliated with UC Berkeley. So you take classes there if you go there too.

Speaker 7 And so in this environment where priests are taking courses and people who are going to be ministers in the Anglican church and, you know,

Speaker 7 they're all taking courses, Presbyterians, and they're all taking what's called New Testament. And in New Testament, you learn how the Bible was put together.
And I remember

Speaker 7 taking this class, and there were lots of people in it, like 35 people.

Speaker 7 Every single one of those people was going to be some type of theologian minister. I think I was the only one who was going to be an academic.

Speaker 7 Every single one of those people went through trauma taking that because once, once, you know, because you're brought up to believe a certain story about Christianity.

Speaker 7 And when that story gets deconstructed in such a way where the teachers using the language of the Bible, which was Greek, you know, the New Testament was Greek, written in Greek, and basically showing you how it was put together, what we have and what we don't have, what other books were out there being used by Christians, this destroyed a lot of people's faith.

Speaker 7 And I know people whose faith was destroyed.

Speaker 7 Some of them went on to be scholars of religion because they had that much training. They're like, well, I got to put this degree to use, even though I'm no longer a believer.

Speaker 7 I met priests whose faith was destroyed, you know, priest information.

Speaker 7 My faith was strengthened. My faith was strengthened because God is a God of truth.
And I was like, I am not afraid to know what is the truth.

Speaker 7 It's not going to make people happy, but I will I will learn it. And if it's wrong, I'll learn that it's wrong.
So

Speaker 7 when when I learned these things, I wanted to know more.

Speaker 7 So I actually extended my education beyond my PhD. So when I got my PhD, I wanted to study with

Speaker 7 John Dominic Crossan, who was at that time the foremost scholar on Jesus in the world. And he was teaching at Berkeley.
And so I asked the chair of my department if I could take courses with him.

Speaker 7 And he was like, yes, absolutely. So I got to take courses with him and learn more.
And again, it it just made me a strong, like stronger in my faith,

Speaker 7 stronger Christian, a better teacher, you know, for students. And I have had students who've come through and they've been what are called biblical literalists.

Speaker 7 So a biblical literalist is a person who takes the Bible literally. Like, you know,

Speaker 7 it's hard to take it literally because there are discrepancies in it, which is what I knew when I was 11.

Speaker 7 I was like, hmm, this doesn't seem that God would create something that had discrepancies in it. This must be translated wrong or something like that.
That's what I thought.

Speaker 7 So I've had students who went on to be ministers of very conservative Christian faith, but we're still great friends.

Speaker 7 And we would have like the conversation about Jesus, you know, with the with the demon.

Speaker 7 and Legion, you know, that story where Jesus comes to a town and there's a demon-possessed man and the demon speaks to Jesus and says, get away, you know, my judgment isn't here yet.

Speaker 7 And Jesus gets the demon and makes it go into these pigs, right?

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 thus saving this man of being possessed. And so I would read this in a certain way and my student would read it absolutely literally.
And we would have a disagreement about it.

Speaker 7 And then

Speaker 7 we were still good friends. And he would go on.
And I would say, that's fine, as long as you know that I'm teaching it this way.

Speaker 7 And, you know, if you know that, I'm okay with you having your opinion about it as long as you know that this is how scholars view it at this point um so we would disagree but he would go on to be a minister now what's funny is i've come to his perception of that after 10 years and going through the ufo thing i'm like i think he's right and if he's watching this

Speaker 7 i believe you now

Speaker 3 Wow. Wow.
Yeah. What, what are the, what are some of the things that aren't in the Bible that we should be paying attention attention to?

Speaker 3 Are you talking about like maybe that, what's that, is it the book of Enoch?

Speaker 7 So, okay, so there are things that haven't been written down, okay, but we know about them through

Speaker 7 material culture. So we know a lot about Christianity by what they decided to put, like, okay, see these beautiful paintings that you have in here?

Speaker 7 Well, I know a lot about you by looking at those paintings, right? I know that your friend painted them. I honestly thought that they were photos.
Like, that's some artistic talent right there.

Speaker 7 But what that means is that what is most important to us, we tend to make images of. And so the early Christians, not all of them could read or write.
So they had material culture.

Speaker 7 And you see these in like the catacombs. And so this is where they buried their dead and they hid out because they were being persecuted by Rome.
And so they had a lot of these

Speaker 7 things that are basically called frescoes. And if you look at their frescoes, you could see what was important to them and also how they worshipped.
So you see that they were diverse.

Speaker 7 So women worshipped with men. Okay, so there wasn't like this

Speaker 7 strict,

Speaker 7 you know, kind of

Speaker 7 gender separation that didn't. appear.
There are some written things that we should pay attention to. And some of those things we found only in the 20th century because we still do archaeology.

Speaker 7 So we found the Dead Sea Scrolls, which tell us a lot about the early Jewish community that became Christian. Jesus is Jewish.
So he's in a

Speaker 7 Christian, he's not Christian, he's Jewish. So his community, then we have to understand it in its context in terms of what he said and, you know, the message that he brings down.

Speaker 7 He also talks a lot about the Holy Spirit. What did he mean by that? He meant the presence of God.
And I think that is super important. And that's something, by the way, that I believe still is alive.

Speaker 7 And you could feel the presence of Jesus in certain communities that profess their, you know, devotion to him and profess to do his, you know, what he asked us to do, love one another, you know, those kinds of things.

Speaker 7 So that's not in the Bible, right?

Speaker 7 Although it can be. We could use the Bible to help us, you know, create this community of believers.
He also instituted a community of people to carry on what he was doing.

Speaker 7 That community had some books that we've just found out about in the 1940s. And one of the,

Speaker 7 so, you know, let's understand too, in the first century,

Speaker 7 the early Christian church was almost decimated by Rome. Okay, so, you know, it's a church that had been,

Speaker 7 you know, bad things were happening to Christians and to Jewish people.

Speaker 7 Their temple was destroyed by Rome in 70. So that group dispersed and tried to survive.
So that's how they started to write things down because they couldn't keep an oral tradition alive.

Speaker 7 So they started to...

Speaker 7 keep it going like, you know, this.

Speaker 7 So they wrote things and some of those things we just found.

Speaker 7 They utilized, and this is really important too, they utilized the Plato's Republic. So the early Christians used Plato's Republic too, which is a really amazing book.

Speaker 7 And if you haven't read it, you should, well, it's a hard book to read. It's again, it's very much like the Bible because it's ancient,

Speaker 7 but it tells a very important truth. And

Speaker 7 so it seems like Socrates and Plato were also on to this one God, right, of justice and truth. And that was somehow

Speaker 7 separate from their government. Their government was not just and truthful.
And so they wrote a book about it called Plato's Republic.

Speaker 7 When I say they, Plato wrote it, but Socrates didn't write anything.

Speaker 7 So Plato wrote it.

Speaker 7 But that was being used by the early Christians. You know, so what was important for them is important for me to know.
So I want to know. I'm not trying to tell anybody what to think.

Speaker 7 I am not the minister of a church. I'm not trying to advocate.

Speaker 7 But the way I do my, you know, and listen, I'm Catholic, but that doesn't mean that, you know, the the Catholic Church, if I'm not a representative of the Catholic Church, and I know a lot of people who are Catholic, and I look at to see what people do, right?

Speaker 7 What do they do? And if I think what they're doing seemed really good and righteous to me, I like that, and I listen to them.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 I had

Speaker 3 asked a lot of people about Ezekiel.

Speaker 7 Yes.

Speaker 3 And it sounds like you have an explanation I'm looking for. Yes, yes.

Speaker 3 Can you go into that?

Speaker 7 I can, please. Yeah.
Thank you. Yeah.
So you're talking about Ezekiel's wheel, right? So Ezekiel's wheel is today. Okay, so I'm going to tell you what I know about it from a Christian perspective.

Speaker 7 So it's in the book of Ezekiel. Ezekiel is a prophet.
Okay, so the Bible, this is the Old Testament, the Hebrew Bible. It is written in Hebrew.
And this is the beginning of the Israelite community.

Speaker 7 Okay. So there's Genesis.
That describes the story of God kind of having a covenant with

Speaker 7 these men, all right, to create his people. Okay.
And that's the book of Genesis. And there's some angel accounts in that too, I think, that are really interesting.
We could talk about.

Speaker 7 So we get to the history of the Jewish people and you get to the prophets. So

Speaker 7 you know about Egypt. So they're in Egypt and they have to leave and Moses gets them out of Egypt.
And so terrible things happened to them in Egypt. And so they need to leave.
So they do.

Speaker 7 And then you get to a certain part of the Bible. It's like a history of the Old Testament is like a history, okay, of God's people.
And so then they get to the prophets.

Speaker 7 Okay, so the prophets, Ezekiel is one of the prophets. And again, there's a government.
There's a, you know, Babylon.

Speaker 7 He's, he's basically trying to control the Jewish people, and it's not good for them. So Ezekiel offers hope and as a prophet of God.

Speaker 7 And what happens to him is that he has this, what some would call a vision, but it could very well, because this is what happens when people have...

Speaker 7 encounters today, say with UAP or what they consider to be angels or something like that. They can't tell if, and you see this also with Paul in the New Testament when he sees Jesus.

Speaker 7 He says, I don't know if it was like a dream or if it was real. I cannot tell.
So it's a very confusing thing that happens to Ezekiel, but it's called Ezekiel's vision. Okay.

Speaker 7 But I'm sure he thought it was real. And it seems real.
Okay. So he has a waking dream, maybe, or a vision that appears real.
And it's of these beings that look odd.

Speaker 7 They have wings and they also have wheels associated with them, okay? And this is in chapter one, so it's at the very beginning.

Speaker 7 And he has this, and what it does is it gives him the realization that God's people will continue, even though they're being. pretty much decimated by the Babylonians.

Speaker 7 Okay, so the Babylonians are putting them in exile and they're kind of breaking them up. And he has this vision of these beings who impart this knowledge to him.
Now, that is part of

Speaker 7 a mystical tradition within Judaism that I've talked, you know, when you're in my field, you get to have friends who have PhDs

Speaker 7 in areas that you don't. So that's basically one of the best things about what I do, in my opinion.
I like it. I get to go talk to friends who are expert at New Testament and say,

Speaker 7 is this tradition in the New Testament?

Speaker 7 And yes, apparently it is. Now, these people won't say this publicly, so I'm going to say it, but

Speaker 7 it's called this, Sean.

Speaker 7 Ezekiel saw what's most likely a seraphim.

Speaker 7 A seraphim. A seraphim.
Yeah, it's a seraph. So seraphim is like the plural of seraph.
It's an angel. It's a type of angel.
And you've seen it before, this, it's like the eye with the wings around it.

Speaker 7 Okay. And sometimes it's shown with wheels.
And so Ezekiel interpreted this and other Jewish people interpreted this to be the throne of God, right? The very throne of God.

Speaker 7 Like these were the beings at the throne of God. And this tradition is called the Merkabah tradition.
And Merkabah is literally chariot.

Speaker 7 So it's a tradition of sightings that of these beings that are God's angels. And they're, and by the way, so this happens to Ezekiel.

Speaker 7 And so it then begins this new era for Jews who at this time are in exile, hope that things are going to get better. Okay, so hope that things are going to get better.

Speaker 7 Before that, there was an interesting angel encounter that Jacob had.

Speaker 7 So Jacob is

Speaker 7 one of the people

Speaker 7 who

Speaker 7 is the son of the one of the patriarchs of the you know of the covenant in Genesis. And he has this encounter.
He's going to meet his brother

Speaker 7 and it's probably not going to be a good meeting because they have a rivalry.

Speaker 7 The night before, he has an encounter with what's in, there's different interpretations of it, but it looks like it's an angel.

Speaker 7 It comes down, sometimes people interpret it like God or a messenger of God. It is an angel.
And it fights with him. It literally fights with him all night.

Speaker 7 So he has this battle with this angel all night long. It dislocates his hip, but he refuses to give up.
He wants a blessing from this thing. And in the end, he gets it.
He gets this blessing.

Speaker 7 And he changes his name from

Speaker 7 Jacob to Israel. And again, what it does is it foretells a new era for God's people, for God's people.

Speaker 7 me, you know, looking at these kinds of events, they're very epic. These kinds of things that happen when people have these sightings of these,

Speaker 7 you know, messengers of God.

Speaker 3 You know, some of this sounds like what some people would call a psychedelic download.

Speaker 3 Have you ever heard of that?

Speaker 7 Yes.

Speaker 3 What do you think about that?

Speaker 7 Okay, so I know a lot about that, actually.

Speaker 7 And even within the

Speaker 7 in religious studies, we we have a whole group of people who do look into,

Speaker 7 you know, entheogens, which are psychedelics and religions and religiosity type of things that come out of that. So Indigenous people from the United States, like, you know, America,

Speaker 7 there's the...

Speaker 7 the Church of Native Americans, the Native American Church. They use peyote, right? And so they utilize

Speaker 7 plant plant medicine in order to,

Speaker 7 you know, in a very structured religious way.

Speaker 7 And they have experiences like this. So most likely there's a link there.
You know, there perhaps what Ezekiel sees is

Speaker 7 something that

Speaker 7 maybe, you know, I'm not trying to,

Speaker 7 I'm very happy to say that, you know, in this environment, like a controlled kind of

Speaker 7 respectful way of doing, you know, psychedelics,

Speaker 7 this is a, this is legitimate what they're doing, you know, if one's doing it recreationally, I've seen some pretty terrible things to happen

Speaker 7 with people who aren't respecting that this, you can open something up. You can open up, let's for,

Speaker 7 you know, let's just say it's a dimension because we don't know what it is, but it appears to be another realm that people can access either through psychedelics or through a religious protocol.

Speaker 7 It seems like it happens.

Speaker 3 Have you done psychedelics?

Speaker 7 Yes. When I was younger, I did.
Yes. And

Speaker 7 again, I felt like it was something that

Speaker 7 was okay for me to do because, well, I'll tell you, I did it innocently. So I was a 16-year-old

Speaker 7 and

Speaker 7 my friend had some her parents were grateful dead people so they I know

Speaker 7 so they had

Speaker 3 the good stuff

Speaker 7 well they had mushrooms and my friend got some and I already knew at this point I don't know how but I already knew that it needed to be done in reverence it needed to be done so we actually prayed to God before we did it and we said if this is wrong God please let us know but we're gonna do this and it was a really beautiful experience that was,

Speaker 7 I mean, honestly, it was it was good.

Speaker 7 But

Speaker 7 I don't do it now.

Speaker 7 And why not?

Speaker 7 Well, because I think that I was lucky and innocent when I did it, Sean.

Speaker 7 I know, I mean, I know that it's helpful. for people.

Speaker 7 I've known people to be, specifically psilocybin has helped people I know recover from things like, you know, say they were on the front and, you know, in various tours of duty, and they've been helped by treatment.

Speaker 7 So I guess what, I guess my position is, and I don't guess this, this is my position, is that

Speaker 7 when done with the correct intention, I think it's good and all right.

Speaker 7 Without that intention, it's dangerous. And for this reason, that it perhaps will open something up.

Speaker 7 And it could be that you do meet something like another being of some sort, you know, that we've been talking about. And that being could be good or it could be bad.

Speaker 7 Both exist, in my opinion.

Speaker 3 So you think these realms

Speaker 3 I've done psychedelic works on psychedelic treat therapies and

Speaker 3 it stemmed from

Speaker 3 mental ill ill injuries from

Speaker 3 service. But

Speaker 3 where I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I don't want to get into the all the good, whatever. That's a whole nother conversation.

Speaker 3 What I'm interested in talking to you about is the realm that you're going to be doing.

Speaker 7 Yeah, but yeah, the realm is really real.

Speaker 3 Do you believe it's a real realm or is it

Speaker 3 developed in your imagination?

Speaker 7 Right. So I have.

Speaker 7 Yeah. Okay.
So I believe it's a real realm.

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Speaker 7 And I don't think the reason I believe that is because if you do what's called field research and talk to people either who access this realm without psychedelics and then those who access it with psychedelics, a lot of times they're talking about similar types of things that happen in those realms, like certain experiences, certain things that they meet, like entities and things like that.

Speaker 7 And so that would indicate to me that that is a real realm. And

Speaker 7 how we access it,

Speaker 7 I don't know. I do know, though, that if we, I know we're not talking UAP right now, but when I met people who were in the government who were studying UAP, who are studying UAP,

Speaker 7 they're very interested in this realm. They're interested in this as an like consciousness is an access point.

Speaker 3 What do you mean by that?

Speaker 7 So, our consciousness can

Speaker 7 access,

Speaker 7 and things can access us through,

Speaker 7 I would call, you know, through something that we have in our consciousness.

Speaker 7 I think that we're at the very beginning of understanding it, and I think we should be really careful.

Speaker 3 Why do you think we should be careful?

Speaker 7 Okay,

Speaker 3 you have specific examples.

Speaker 7 Well,

Speaker 7 yes. Okay.
So this gets really scary, though, because

Speaker 7 it could be that there are, like, I've met people who have been doing ayahuasca, right? And they do it

Speaker 7 fairly consistently, I guess, right?

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 they've been, and I've had

Speaker 7 They've told me that they've been what they call and I'm not putting words in their mouth. They've been possessed.
Okay.

Speaker 7 And what they described to me

Speaker 7 is something that I've heard within the Christian

Speaker 7 tradition of being possessed, or even in like it happens in most religious traditions, by the way. It doesn't just happen in the Christian tradition.

Speaker 7 Possession by something that is bad and is harmful. And so it could be that something like that could happen if one's not

Speaker 7 prepared to deal with the realm. There is a reason in the Jewish tradition that people, and by the way, you also get this in the Greek tradition.

Speaker 7 So when I say I'm looking at this from a meta perspective, not just from each tradition.

Speaker 7 So I feel blessed actually to be able to have studied this from multiple different religious traditions and secular traditions and philosophical traditions. And so

Speaker 7 when a person

Speaker 7 goes through life,

Speaker 7 preparing themselves to access these what we'll just call in this conversation these other dimensions, right? This realm.

Speaker 7 They've been prepared, like they've been prepared. They have a group of people to help them, like in the Merkabah tradition.
You don't do it until you're in their 40s.

Speaker 7 You know, you have to actually have gone through

Speaker 7 maturation.

Speaker 7 You have to prepare your brain. The Greek tradition, in the Greek tradition, the Socratic tradition, you prepared your brain by doing math.

Speaker 7 You were an athlete. A lot of them were,

Speaker 7 they were kind of like MMA fighters right they were wrestlers and stuff so they trained their bodies so you know most people are not like that most people are not they're just going through life and they're doing their job and then they want to do this thing you know they want to go down and do ayahuasca and

Speaker 7 maybe five times it works well for them but on their sixth time it's the worst thing that has ever happened to them in their life and it has PTSD repercussions for them you know that's what I'm saying that type of thing I have, I know people that have had that happen to them.

Speaker 7 So that's why I'm on the conservative side of

Speaker 7 that.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 When you're talking about other people that are reaching the same dimension or realm or whatever we want to call it, that

Speaker 3 are getting there without psychedelics.

Speaker 7 Yes.

Speaker 3 How are they? Is this through meditation?

Speaker 7 How is that? Okay, so in almost every major religious tradition, you have a

Speaker 7 tradition of this. And they're usually called monastic communities, communities of monks and nuns, or like they're called in Hinduism sannyasins, you know, renunciates.

Speaker 7 But, and even you have this in, like I talked about Socrates and Plato in the Greek philosophical tradition. You have a group of

Speaker 7 people

Speaker 7 who

Speaker 7 go off, live together, and help each other. In Buddhism, it's called the Sangha, right? It's a community of people helping each other become ready to access realms that provide knowledge, wisdom.

Speaker 7 truth, things like that. And these realms, I'm what's called a moral realist.

Speaker 7 That's a philosophical position that believes that things like truth and justice, these are real things. And if humans died, they would still exist.
Truth and justice would still exist.

Speaker 7 I believe that. And that only comes from living my life for as long as I've lived and going through the training that I've gone through.
There are lots of people that aren't moral realists.

Speaker 7 Most people are not, I would say. But once a person has a taste that this realm exists and that truth and beauty exists and that you feel it and it's something amazing, right?

Speaker 7 Like I feel like Jimi Hendrix knew about this, you know, through his experiences with psychedelics, you know, are you experienced? He was experienced and he says, not just stone, but beautiful.

Speaker 7 Well, I understood that, you know, and I understood that not from the,

Speaker 7 now he was dead, by the way, when I was exposed to his work. But,

Speaker 7 but yeah, so once a person recognizes that that stuff is worthwhile, then one wants to.

Speaker 7 go through those training, get through that protocol, do those, you know, go through those communities.

Speaker 3 Do you think?

Speaker 7 And by the way, this is also what helps people deal if there is something that one encounters that's not truth and beauty. And there are those things, obviously.

Speaker 3 I mean, I just,

Speaker 3 you know,

Speaker 3 I think we have a lot to learn in those realms. I do.

Speaker 7 In those dimensions.

Speaker 3 I do too. And

Speaker 3 I've never actually had this conversation with anybody before, but, you know, I think a lot of people go back because there's so much positivity coming out of psychedelics.

Speaker 3 I mean,

Speaker 3 that's why I went back. But, you know, and

Speaker 3 but

Speaker 3 man, I have so many thoughts going through my head. You know, the, the, the dimension or realm that it takes me to always scares the hell out of me.
It's not necessarily a bad experience.

Speaker 3 I have a lot of

Speaker 3 anticipation type anxiety when if I'm going to do it because I know I'm going there.

Speaker 3 Majority of the experience has been overwhelmingly positive. I always learn a lot.
It's always a very

Speaker 3 intuitive type experience. And,

Speaker 3 you know, it's funny you mentioned truth and justice and things like that, because you'll feel,

Speaker 3 you might feel justice

Speaker 3 about certain events that have happened in your life that you didn't feel. that you got justice from.
You might get that coming out of those type of experiences.

Speaker 3 And then, you know, with the truth, I mean,

Speaker 3 I've had so many intuitive experiences about my family, my own life, my business, my, just lots of,

Speaker 3 lots, it's almost like a download of information or a, hey, I need, uh, I, I need a new roadmap to my life. Uh,

Speaker 3 let me

Speaker 3 strap in here real quick and, and figure this out. And

Speaker 3 I, there's just so many positive things coming out of it, but

Speaker 3 I almost feel like some of the things that you're talking about live in that realm.

Speaker 3 And so

Speaker 3 should we be exploring that realm

Speaker 3 somehow, some way, more effectively than

Speaker 3 the way we are?

Speaker 7 Emphatically, yes.

Speaker 7 So, in my opinion, I just spoke to a young man here on your team who told me, he's 25, he told me about his experience of school, which was horrible, horrible experience. When I know, right?

Speaker 7 We don't teach kids this. Our culture is completely evacuated of the reality of this, that it's real.
And there might be means of accessing, you know, these amazing

Speaker 7 things.

Speaker 7 Yeah, so if you took,

Speaker 7 even

Speaker 7 when we do teach it, we teach it as if like I did, sadly for a while, you know, teaching it like it, it wasn't actually real, you know, when we taught like Plato's Republic and, you know, the kinds of things that he would talk about

Speaker 7 in his dialogues, you know, but they're real. And what if I, you know, and I teach them now, like,

Speaker 7 they really believe these guys, you know, like, wow, do they exist? And I go, I believe they exist, but I'm not saying that you should believe they exist. I personally do.

Speaker 7 And so that makes an impact on a young person. So what I'm saying is that they crave this, like, don't you? Like you say, you keep going back.
You know, this is something that we need as human beings.

Speaker 7 It's something that we've been deprived of.

Speaker 3 It's really weird. It's, it's, I crave it.
I don't know if craving is the right word, but I've, I don't know any other way to put it. I feel like, I feel like psychedelics make you smarter.

Speaker 3 I really honestly believe that psychedelics make you smarter, smarter at accessing memories, smarter at navigating your life.

Speaker 3 It just clears all the shit up and gives you clear direction and where to go and

Speaker 3 new perspectives on past events and current events and relationships.

Speaker 3 But at the same time, I really, I have a lot of respect

Speaker 3 for

Speaker 3 the medicine itself. And so it's not,

Speaker 3 you're not going to see me at a party eating a bag of mushrooms.

Speaker 7 I was just going to ask you that. I was going to say, okay, it sounds like Sean is doing this in the kind of environment where there's reverence and respect.

Speaker 3 If I do it, calendar's blocked off.

Speaker 3 It's no kids. Like, it's, it's a very, I take it very seriously.

Speaker 3 I don't mess around. I don't just do it on a whim.
I put a lot of thought into why I'm doing it, what I'm going to do it, how I'm going to do it, preparation for afterwards.

Speaker 3 I'm not just going to come back to work the next day.

Speaker 3 So, I mean,

Speaker 3 if I'm going to do it, then I'm going to set it up to where I'm going to get the most out of the out of the out of the experience.

Speaker 3 But,

Speaker 3 yeah, it's just interesting to talk to somebody like you about

Speaker 3 that.

Speaker 3 So I wanted to ask you about the,

Speaker 3 you've studied the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Speaker 7 No, those are in Hebrew and the type of Hebrew I'm not.

Speaker 7 In fact, even probably, oh, gosh, what they're not the language that I would be able to crack the code of them. But I do know about that community.
And I have friends who study them.

Speaker 7 So that's how I have knowledge of them. So within the field of religious studies, there's so so many things.
You can't know everything. And knowing that,

Speaker 7 even if you know the language, you have to know that specific, you know, language from that time period.

Speaker 3 Okay. Well, let's move into what,

Speaker 3 like, how did the interest in the UFO stuff even happen?

Speaker 7 Yeah. So

Speaker 7 I'm the last person, by the way, who would be talking about UFOs if you talked to me, you know,

Speaker 7 14 years ago.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 nobody

Speaker 7 would say that I would be talking about UFOs. Anybody you talk to who knows me, Diana's talking about UFOs.

Speaker 7 So this happened because of the purgatory book. So I had created that log of aerial phenomena, historical aerial phenomena.
And I thought it was weird.

Speaker 7 And so I showed my friend and we went to this conference where I met people who had these experiences and they were telling me things that looked like a pattern match to what I was studying.

Speaker 7 So I thought, I'll go ahead and look at this a little bit further, but I didn't tell anybody. I was just kind of like doing an analysis.
And then I thought, you know, this is interesting.

Speaker 7 It's basically a modern day ascent narrative, you know, the ascent of the soul, right?

Speaker 7 So if you see images of like people being abducted or cows being abducted, you'll see the cow rising into, you know, ascending into the spaceships, you're, you know, the people, the farmer being ascended.

Speaker 7 Well, you see the same thing with images of purgatory.

Speaker 7 You see, like back, maybe not cows, of course, but you know, European Catholics will be ascending into like, you know, their souls ascending, but it shows them ascending.

Speaker 7 So I thought, this is like a modern day ascent narrative. I could use my methods for studying this, no problem.
This isn't, I won't, it won't discredit me to study this, right?

Speaker 7 So I started to do this study, and it was really interesting.

Speaker 7 And then what happened was I started to get emails and phone calls from aerospace engineers, people from known aerospace aerospace corporations and institutions.

Speaker 7 And they wanted to talk to me about my research that I was doing. I was like, what? Wait, I think you got the wrong person.
No.

Speaker 7 So, and this kept happening. And I decided, okay, they wanted to meet with me.
A couple of them wanted to meet with me.

Speaker 7 So I thought, okay, I'll meet with them because why do they want to know about this angel event that happened in the 1800s?

Speaker 3 How did they get wind of you? Were you right about that?

Speaker 7 I started to do conferences with my, the people that I know who are other professors of religion and for us it was like oh yeah modern day ascent narrative you know easy to understand but they would then somehow were scouring like the internet of any academic who is doing you know the word ufo or anything like that and that's how they found me and once i was found a lot of them reached out to me and at first i was a little bit put off because i thought

Speaker 7 This is kind of odd. It kind of freaked me out to tell you the truth.
But I did start to talk to them.

Speaker 7 and one of them um i actually put him off for like a year and a half i mean i know it sounds weird but i had five young kids and i was busy right so i was didn't make this connection i thought it was weird but when i started to talk to them i recognized that they weren't looking at it like i was looking at it they were looking at it like it actually happened whereas i was looking at it more like a metaphor like you know this is something this is their interpretation of something they saw in the sky.

Speaker 7 They wanted to know what they saw in the sky. They also wanted to know what kinds of things happened to these people.
Like, were they injured? And a lot of times they were.

Speaker 7 And so that started to get me to like re-look at what I was doing. And I started to look at it from their perspective.

Speaker 7 And I was like, oh my gosh, you know, I think that these things are probably real.

Speaker 7 And that was shocking. So I was shocked for a whole year.

Speaker 7 What I did was, thankfully, I had a friend, Jeff Kriepel, at Rice University, and I shared all my stuff with him. And he was shocked too, by the way.

Speaker 3 What was it? What was the turning point for you that made you think that this isn't metaphorical anymore?

Speaker 7 Okay, so the turning point was when

Speaker 7 I met a person who I have to call Tyler

Speaker 7 because he's anonymous.

Speaker 7 One of these people that when I look back now, I recognize worked for one of these SAPs most likely. I can't prove it but it looks like it.
So he worked for

Speaker 7 yeah yeah so this is a

Speaker 7 it's called a special access program in the military and he worked for an unacknowledged SAP

Speaker 7 and

Speaker 7 He described his work as a hobby. This was in 2013.
He described his work as a hobby. He had lots of clearances from different agencies,

Speaker 7 Department of Defense and like NASA, like a lot.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 he worked as a mission controller and he also worked as this,

Speaker 7 he was like a space shuttle. He worked in the space shuttle program for his duration until it ended.
He was always at a launch of the space shuttle. He also did

Speaker 7 scientific stuff. So he was this character that I didn't quite understand when I first met him.
And he really wanted to know the data.

Speaker 7 So he wanted to know, he really was interested in any work that I would do at the Vatican. And he was also interested in any work that I did that had to do with consciousness.

Speaker 7 Because he said that in his field, he said, consciousness is the next step. That's where we are studying.
And that's why we're interested in your work.

Speaker 7 And so again, I was really slow to work with him because I was concerned. You know, I was like,

Speaker 7 concerned about what it would mean for my life.

Speaker 7 It might change my life, you know, and it did. It did change my life.

Speaker 7 So, so that's what changed is that I started to look at the Catholic tradition again from a new lens. So, I had looked at like Teresa of Avalaj, this nun who

Speaker 7 lived in the 1500s and

Speaker 7 she

Speaker 7 had an experience with this one of these seraphs, like or an angel, right? But she didn't, she didn't call an angel at first.

Speaker 7 So I went back and I looked at these experiences that these people had that we now, when we look at them, we see the nice prayer cards and it looks really like a sweet kind of encounter that they had.

Speaker 7 But really, the encounter, when you read the primary source material that you see in the archives, it looks really different than how it's represented. And that was shocking to me because.

Speaker 7 okay, so there are sort of two main archives that hold, there's lots of different archives, but the ones that hold lots of information about this, first is the Vatican Archive and the Vatican, that used to be called the Vatican Secret Archive, but it's called the Apostolic Archive and it's the Pope's Archive.

Speaker 7 And you have to, you can't just go to that. You have to actually have certain credentials to get into it.
And so I have those credentials.

Speaker 7 So I was able to go there and I was able to look at the primary source material for some of the saints in the Catholic and Christian tradition that looked like that were had angel events or levitated and had anomalous activity.

Speaker 7 And I was able to look at that and assess the primary source data on my own, which is really

Speaker 7 fascinating. Yeah.
So I did that work.

Speaker 3 And can you name one of the saints or maybe,

Speaker 7 yeah, all of the saints. So once you start to look at the saints, you see

Speaker 7 that what is said about what was said in the very,

Speaker 7 there are what are called primary source material. This would be some of the first material that comes out about that experience that that saint had.
Teresa of Avila wrote her own experience.

Speaker 7 That's what makes it so important, is that she wrote about it. It was later what's called redacted.
It was changed by the church.

Speaker 7 She said she saw this angel and it wasn't a vision. It was in reality.
Like, you know, and she said that it was short and it was shiny and she was confused because it didn't look like an angel.

Speaker 7 And she goes, well, it must be a cherub, right? So she had confusion about it. And it had a, it had a dart.
And she said, this dart, it took and it basically put it in me, right?

Speaker 7 So this looks like modern day UFO abduction reports. And so once you start to see those connections, you cannot unsee them.
And you're like, okay, got it.

Speaker 7 This is, this is different than how it's represented in the prayer card, right? Where it's beautiful.

Speaker 7 And I hope that I'm not offending the Catholics that are looking at this and, you know, because it's their childhood. They were brought up with these images.

Speaker 3 How do you know it was redacted?

Speaker 7 Oh, because we have the redactions.

Speaker 3 So do you have the original transcripts? Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 I have those. Why would they redact it?

Speaker 7 It didn't conform to their theology.

Speaker 7 So it happens all the time.

Speaker 3 I mean, I know it happens in government all the time. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 Standard.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 are you saying that the Catholic Church just took a first-hand account and said, nah, this doesn't align with what we think. So we're just going to change it.
Yes, yes.

Speaker 3 And then left the original transcripts in?

Speaker 7 Yeah. Well, yes.

Speaker 7 Because people didn't read as much as they read now. And they weren't betting on us.
You know, going back and looking at it. And it doesn't matter to them now.
They're okay with it.

Speaker 7 Like, literally, they're okay with it. They're like, yeah, we did that.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 7 Because because that you know they didn't do it today they did they were weren't the ones that did it but the catholics after teresa had her experience and told um the priests that were her quote-unquote confessors those were like the kind of like a therapist you know you know they were priests i mean it's just interesting because then it just it it's

Speaker 3 I mean, what else did the Catholics just say?

Speaker 7 I think it happens in every religion, to tell you the truth.

Speaker 3 I'm sure it does.

Speaker 7 So, you know, we can get angry at the Catholics, but in every religion, a person has an event that's a legitimate event that is profound for them.

Speaker 7 And then they tell that event and it changes people's lives. And then that religion is like,

Speaker 7 that didn't happen. Kind of thing.
You know, they redact it. It's happening now with the UFO.

Speaker 7 topic.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, it happens in all subjects.

Speaker 3 It's just

Speaker 3 It's just weird that they're okay.

Speaker 7 Oh, yeah, they're okay with it.

Speaker 3 You know, yeah, we changed.

Speaker 3 But I'm sorry. Sorry about that.
No, I know.

Speaker 7 It's shocking. Yes, it's shocking what you like.
This is why people had their faith challenged in that class I told you about. You know, their faith, boom, gone.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 All right. Sorry.
Sorry to interrupt.

Speaker 7 No, no, no, you're not. All of that is good information because your viewers are going to have the same questions.
They're going to want to know too, right? So yeah, so that happened.

Speaker 7 So I decided to go back through the Catholic tradition and look at as many as I could. And lo and behold, it's like almost every one of them looked like that.
And that's when I started to pick up.

Speaker 3 Like a little cherub?

Speaker 7 Yeah, well, they looked, they looked different. They didn't look like what the angels we accept are.
And a lot of times they were disturbing, like Joan of Arc's experiences, super disturbing.

Speaker 7 But... How were they? Okay, so she saw Joan of Arc.
We all know who she is, right? Okay, so she's a warrior, a girl warrior

Speaker 7 who was told by God

Speaker 7 to

Speaker 7 fight for the French, right?

Speaker 7 Against the English, okay.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 who told her this? So I'm like, who told Joan of Arc this?

Speaker 3 God, but,

Speaker 7 you know, did God come down and say this? No. It was

Speaker 7 first she didn't recognize what it was, just like in Teresa of Avila. And I'll, and remind me to tell you about that, this lack of recognition, this confusion.
So

Speaker 7 it's a being of light, and it appears in her father's garden. And it appears to her and says, Joan, Joan, you know, you're going to be doing this.
And this is, and she's like, what is this?

Speaker 7 So she doesn't take it seriously until it shows up again. And then she recognizes that it's Saint Michael.

Speaker 7 And then it acknowledges that it's Saint Michael and that it's going to ask her to be a warrior and that this is what she's going to do. And so it says, go tell this person.

Speaker 7 And she goes and they listen to her because she has knowledge that she shouldn't have. She has like precognitive knowledge of stuff.

Speaker 7 And of course, when people do that to you and you're not suspecting it, you believe them because you're like, they do have special knowledge, right?

Speaker 7 And so then, you know, she does all these things. She eventually gets burned at the stake.
So that's why I want to say it's disturbing because, you know,

Speaker 7 she does take these troops into battle. She is victorious.
It does give her military acumen, you know, it does help her, but she also ends up being burned at the stake.

Speaker 7 So the question is, to me, is like, would I want that for my daughter?

Speaker 7 No, I wouldn't. Like, so when an angel, you know, do you want an angel to appear to you? Maybe, maybe not.

Speaker 7 You know, so that's what I'm trying to say is like, it's, it's a lot more complicated when you start to get into it.

Speaker 7 That doesn't mean that it should kill your faith. I mean, if you're, if you're a person of a faith, that faith should withstand

Speaker 7 looking into it, you know, looking into it. So, so yes, that's, that's what I did.
Wow. That's how, that's how I got into the UAP thing is that it,

Speaker 7 the, these guys were looking at it, but from the perspective that it's real, because they believe that it was happening and they want to know what's going on.

Speaker 7 They want as much data as they could get. So that's what I was doing then.
I was providing them with this data. In the midst of providing them with this data, I started to work with one of the guys.

Speaker 7 And at the time,

Speaker 7 this is between 2013 and 2018, special access programs, reversion engineering programs. I didn't have that language.
Nobody did that I knew, right? They weren't in Congress.

Speaker 7 There wasn't talk about this. The New York Times stories didn't break yet.
So I was working with a person who was doing this,

Speaker 7 who wanted to know how to utilize these debris that we, you know, that were being found.

Speaker 7 You know, and I went to New Mexico to a crash site, alleged crash site with Gary Nolan, by the way.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 we found debris.

Speaker 7 We did. So it was me, Tyler, and Gary.
And Tyler had known of this for years, like his whole life. And he was in his 60s then.
So, you know, for 40 years, he knew about this. It wasn't Roswell.

Speaker 7 And I have a feeling it wasn't Roswell because it was the real place. So Roswell is probably like the camouflage place.

Speaker 7 And then, I mean, I'm going to be creating a lot of like

Speaker 7 a lot of people are going to be interested in this topic, obviously. But,

Speaker 7 but yeah, yeah so this is my experience so we went to what did the debris look like right so um the debris looked like metallic frog skin metallic frog yeah it looked like frog skin but metallic do you have any pictures no we couldn't take pictures of it how did you get access to this place okay so Tyler having amazing access, he's a guy who could get through an airport, like didn't have to go through TSA.

Speaker 7 He was a guy who the the IRS never audited. So he seemed to be above the law.
So I describe him in American Cosmic. I was amazed by this person.
I was very

Speaker 7 impacted because I'd never met a person. I didn't even know they existed.

Speaker 7 But he, part of what he did was

Speaker 7 he troubleshooted. I remember during a SpaceX launch that was

Speaker 7 crashed. And I think this was in 2018 or 17.
It was crashed.

Speaker 7 His phone was going off and astronauts like all these people are like what you know what how do we fix this he was like a guy who fixed crashed stuff so he was you know the challenger crashed he was on the team to figure out why it crashed and by the way judy resnick was his friend so he had who's that Judy Resnick, she was the astronaut who perished during the Challenger

Speaker 3 crash. Okay.

Speaker 7 So anyway, so this is the person who I worked closely with. I brought him even to my university.
He talked to my students.

Speaker 3 So Tyler,

Speaker 3 just so Tyler is a code name. Yes.

Speaker 3 Obviously some type of government

Speaker 3 official, right?

Speaker 7 But working for him. Most likely, yeah.
And

Speaker 7 I believe still lives.

Speaker 3 Are you still tied in with him?

Speaker 7 I know about him, but

Speaker 7 we cannot talk

Speaker 7 because of everything that's happened.

Speaker 3 Okay, so

Speaker 3 what else was at this site?

Speaker 7 Okay, so

Speaker 7 he asked me to go to the site because he said that I didn't believe in UFOs. And he's right.
I didn't. And he said, you are a person who thinks that they're somehow imaginary or in another realm.

Speaker 7 He goes, but they're in this realm. They're physical.
And I couldn't really believe that because why? Unless I have evidence for it.

Speaker 7 And so he said, you should go to a place I know of and you'll be convinced. And he asked me to go and it took about a year for me to say yes.

Speaker 7 And when I said yes, I said, I need to bring someone with me. I need to have one of my colleagues come with me because I don't want to go by myself.
And he said,

Speaker 7 maybe.

Speaker 7 So he said, because apparently it was a place, it was under a no-fly zone. And it was a place that was secret.
And, but he'd been going there. And he'd, I think it was a crash retrieval site, frankly.

Speaker 7 So now what I'm learning about, by the way, I keep going back to my book, American Cosmic, because I wrote a lot in that book and I wrote it all truthfully.

Speaker 7 So that means that there's data in there that at the time I did not understand. Now, when I go back and read it, I learned from my own book.
I'm like, whoa, that happened.

Speaker 7 And I have a lot of stuff from him, like a lot of presentations and papers and everything that notes that I still go back to. And now I understand.

Speaker 7 Like at the time I didn't because I didn't believe in them and I didn't know it was happening. I didn't know that this was going on.
I didn't believe in it.

Speaker 7 So, okay, so he invites me to New Mexico to this place. He says it's going to be a place where a UFO crashed in the 1940s, but it's not Roswell.

Speaker 7 And I was like, haha, you know, I was the chair of my department at the time, by the way, and already had won research awards for my work in Catholic history.

Speaker 7 Nobody knew that I was really doing work in UFOs, only a couple friends.

Speaker 7 So it's nothing I advertised. So I said, I'll invite Jeff Kreipel to go with me, the guy at Rice,

Speaker 7 colleague, good friend. And he said, Diana, that's just way too out of my comfort zone to do that.
I was like, it is kind of weird. We had to wear blindfolds to go.

Speaker 7 So I said, okay, I'll ask. I had just been introduced to Gary Nolan.
He's a professor at Stanford. He's now well known.

Speaker 7 And I asked him if he'd go with me and he said, yes, of course I'll go with you. And he had all the laboratory equipment to like figure it out anyway.

Speaker 7 So I told Tyler, I said, Gary Nolan, and he looked him up. It took him a couple days and he came back and he said, okay.
And I was like, cool, we're in. So we're going to go.
So it was me and Gary.

Speaker 7 and Tyler was taking us. So we went to New Mexico, we stayed at a place, and then the next day we're going to the crash retrieval place.

Speaker 7 We had special metal detectors that Tyler had configured and brought and we got in the car and we went, we didn't wear blindfolds yet until we got to a cattle great place, you know, and then Tyler said, put the blindfolds on, you know.

Speaker 7 So we put the blindfolds on and we went another 40 minutes. And then when we got out, we got out and we took the blindfolds off.
And

Speaker 7 I looked around and Tyler said, this is such a funny part. He said, do you recognize this place? And I was like, no, of course I don't.
And he goes,

Speaker 7 this is like one of the episodes on the X-Files. And I was like, oh,

Speaker 7 okay.

Speaker 7 He said they had an insider on their team. And I thought that was so, honestly, it was really,

Speaker 7 you have to understand, I still didn't believe. I was like, I wanted to know why these guys believed because they both were believers, complete believers.
We spent all day there. We did get parts.

Speaker 7 We did get this stuff.

Speaker 7 And it was hard to get, by the way. It wasn't easy.
So it couldn't have just been planted there.

Speaker 7 There was rubble everywhere. And it was rubble.
I didn't quite understand why it was there. My editor wanted me to take it out, but it was disintegrated aluminum cans, I guess from the 1950s.

Speaker 7 So Tyler said that they put that out there so people couldn't find. the debris.
So we took the debris back. Tyler predicted what would happen.

Speaker 7 He said, do you want to take it back through the airport, airport, Diana? No, no, I don't want the debris. I don't want anything to do with it.
Gary was going to take it.

Speaker 7 So we get back to the airport. And he said that Gary was going to get stopped.
It was in his backpack. And that exactly happened.
He said, exactly what was going to happen happened. So I get through.

Speaker 7 Tyler doesn't have to go through TSA. He's already at the end.
He's, you know, cool, collected, sitting there watching us. And I come through and I sit down.

Speaker 7 And Gary, so Tyler had said to us, don't be afraid, Gary. This is what's gonna happen

Speaker 7 it'll go off they're gonna check your backpack they're gonna look everywhere

Speaker 7 it doesn't matter somebody in DC or something's gonna know

Speaker 7 but but they're but you have nothing up nothing nothing's you're gonna be let pass they're gonna

Speaker 7 he doesn't have anything in the backpack and Gary's like okay but Gary was sweating the whole time it happened exactly like Tyler said he was sweating when it happened and I was afraid for him so I was afraid Tyler was just cool, calm, and collected, drinking a glass of water.

Speaker 7 Gary came out. We kind of like

Speaker 7 got over that. And then we went back to our homes.

Speaker 7 Gary later looked at it through his microscopes and things that he has laser microscopes and things like that. And

Speaker 7 he said it was anomalous.

Speaker 3 That's it?

Speaker 3 Anything, anything else?

Speaker 7 I mean, whatever else happened, there's a lot. Yeah, a lot happened, but I can't say what happened after that.

Speaker 7 I know everybody's going to hate that, but.

Speaker 3 Interesting. Let's take a quick break.
Yeah, okay. Cool.

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Speaker 3 All right, Diana, we're back from the break. We just kind of went over your work with Tyler and Gary Nolan at the

Speaker 3 crash site.

Speaker 3 And I just, how was that kind of briefed to you? I mean,

Speaker 3 it sounds like it just sounds, you know, like, hey, we're going to take you to the site where a UFO crashed. Yeah.
Yeah, right.

Speaker 7 I know. That's exactly how I reacted.

Speaker 7 So it was in the context of when the aerospace engineers reached out to me and, you know I started to talk with them and I corresponded with Tyler and then I met him and then

Speaker 7 you know we shared information about these things and then he said

Speaker 7 you're not a believer like you're still not a believer and I'm really open and I said you're right I'm not a believer and he said well I think I could show you something that would

Speaker 7 make you a believer. You need to have physical proof.
You don't think this is physical. You think it's imagining it's imagination.
And

Speaker 7 I said, yes, I don't believe in it. And so that's when he said, I could take you to this place.

Speaker 7 And like I said, it took me about a year to say yes, that I'd go to this place because it was weird, right? So

Speaker 7 especially at that time, like today, because people talk about crash retrieval sites and stuff, you'd go, oh, a crash retrieval place. You may not believe in it, but at least you know what it is.

Speaker 7 I didn't even know what he was talking about. I hadn't read the

Speaker 7 day after Roswell by Colonel Corso, right? I didn't know any of that. I did afterwards, of course.
You know, I had to do that in order to understand what was going on.

Speaker 7 But that's how it was briefed to me.

Speaker 3 So you've been, you've been,

Speaker 3 I read that you went to the Vatican with a, was it a NASA

Speaker 7 scientist? It was Tyler.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 7 What is that? And he had affiliations with that too, with NASA also.

Speaker 7 What happened? Okay, so this was a really interesting trip.

Speaker 3 What prompted the trip? Let me start there. What prompted the trip?

Speaker 7 Okay, so the trip had nothing to do with UFOs in the beginning. It was purely about my scholarship, right? So I do Catholic history and I know people at the Vatican.
I was invited to go.

Speaker 7 by brother guy Consul Magnio. He is the director of the Vatican Observatory, which is the observatory of the Vatican.
It's been around since the 1800s. And he's a Jesuit.

Speaker 7 He went to the school I went to, and

Speaker 7 he's a monk. And so we were talking, and I was interested in UFO stuff.
So I asked him about the Vatican, if they had anything that had to do with space. And he said, yes.

Speaker 7 We have a whole observatory archive. Everything that has to do with space at the Vatican comes to our archive.
And so I was like, hmm, I'd like to look at that.

Speaker 7 And he said, you're welcome to come and and stay. We have a scholar's residence.
You could stay as long as you want. So I said, okay, I'll do that.
So I knew that I could go and stay there.

Speaker 7 But I hadn't yet decided to go to the archive of the Vatican.

Speaker 7 But the opportunity arose for me to do that. And it was to examine the levitation records of

Speaker 7 what we call the canonization records.

Speaker 7 Canonization is a process where people become saints. And so there are big records.
You just don't say this person's a saint. You know, you have to prove it.
So they have these records at the Vatican.

Speaker 7 And this was for Joseph of Copertino, who's a saint who's said to have levitated. And I was supposed to go and look at those records.
By the way, I have those records in a strange

Speaker 7 strange series of events. So those records are now in my possession.

Speaker 7 I signed an agreement with the Vatican about it. And I didn't intend for that to happen, nor did I even want those records, but I do have them.

Speaker 7 And I keep them in a safe place. So, and they're translated too.
So I have these records. They were in like 17th century Latin and Italian.
So that's something I can't translate.

Speaker 7 So I had to find a team of translators. So in any case, I'm supposed to go to the Vatican.
And so Tyler says, I'd like to go and look at those records too.

Speaker 7 And I thought, hmm, that actually might be really an interesting thing. I'll see what he thinks about these levitation records and also the space observatory stuff because he's a space guy.

Speaker 7 He's been in the space program his whole life. So it would be really interesting for me to see his reactions to this data.
So I thought it would be good for him to go.

Speaker 7 But this really had nothing to do with, in my opinion, the UFO thing. But it actually did, but I didn't know it.

Speaker 7 So we ended up going. And let me describe how he got in, because he shouldn't, by rights, get into the secret archive because he doesn't have those credentials.
So we thought about that.

Speaker 7 Now it takes a while. You can't just go there and say, I want to see these books or these old manuscripts.
You actually, because

Speaker 7 there's like 53 miles of shelving at the Vatican. So they need to know what you need to, they need time in order to find it for you.
So I...

Speaker 7 like a year in advance, I was in touch with the Vatican and said, I need to find these. You know, do you have these and these? These, all the records.
And so they said, yes. Okay.

Speaker 7 So

Speaker 7 he got he was we had to fly there he was on a different plane than me and he got to the vatican before i did and we had anticipated that he wouldn't be able to get into the vatican archive so we we did the best we could we got like a friend of his who was a department chair and said you know he's a i vouch for his character he's doing research in this area and stuff um but he couldn't get in so i was on the plane and he was texting me and he was like i can't get in they're not letting me in.

Speaker 7 He said, I think I should show my ID. Now,

Speaker 7 I didn't really want anybody at the Vatican to know that I was there with someone who's a space researcher because I didn't want them to know that we were looking for anything that had to do with UFOs because in the one sense, I wasn't.

Speaker 7 But in the other sense, I just wanted the best impression when I got there. So I didn't want him to do that.
And I honestly didn't think it would work. Okay, so I didn't think he'd be able to get in.

Speaker 7 But after like an hour or two, I'm on the plane. I feel bad for him.
And he finally says, Can you please just, I'm going to do this. All right.
And I said, Okay, just go ahead.

Speaker 7 So one of his IDs, I don't know which one, he shows to

Speaker 7 the guy who's the security at the secret archive. And he said he dropped his wallet and he went down to pick it up.
And when he looked up, he saw his face on the screen of the guy's computer.

Speaker 7 And he was in.

Speaker 7 and as soon as he got in he met a priest who was an american and we got access

Speaker 7 so that's when i again what he changed my my idea of the catholic history he also changed my idea of the vatican so when we got to the vatican i couldn't believe it i was like what you know how come this guy has way more access than me how did he get that access so it was a mystery to me but he also pointed out a couple things too so there's some really, really scary guards in the Vatican itself that don't look like the Swiss guards.

Speaker 7 Like they look like militia guys. They have these, like, I'm not well versed in guns, but they look like they have like machine guns, right? And you can't go anywhere.

Speaker 7 Like I was holding on to Father Kelty, who was showing us around, you know, in the Vatican and helping us out.

Speaker 7 Like if I was away from him, I had, I was fearful of my life because these guys were mean. You know, they're like, why are you here? kind of thing.
So

Speaker 7 Vatican has some incredible security.

Speaker 7 Also, Tyler pointed some things out to me. So we were at the Vatican Observatory and in the gardens, they have a beautiful garden there, the Papal Gardens, in fact.
And there were these gardeners.

Speaker 7 And he said,

Speaker 7 see the gardeners? And yes. And he said, Are they gardening? And I looked at them and no, they were not gardening.
And what were they doing? So he was pointing out to me the intelligence

Speaker 7 at, you know, like Secret Service type people at the Vatican. He could spot them.
And when he would show them to me, it was like my eyes, like

Speaker 7 I didn't see it before. To me, I just, in my mind, registered gardener, and that was it.
I didn't even bother looking at them, but no, they weren't gardening.

Speaker 7 And if they were, they should be fired because they were bad, right? They weren't gardening. They were posing as gardeners.
So that was all over. I saw that.

Speaker 7 And so I saw the Vatican in a completely different light when I was there. And

Speaker 7 we did find interesting information

Speaker 7 that basically made it into the last chapter of American Cosmic. So that book had been done in my mind before I went to the Vatican.

Speaker 7 After I was at the Vatican, I wrote to my editor and I said, this has to be the last chapter. of the book.
And she agreed. So we, so I incorporated a lot of the data.

Speaker 7 Tyler had a conversion experience.

Speaker 7 So he became, he was a Southern Baptist, but he was one of those Southern Baptists that, you know, like, like I was a Catholic, like, you know, in name only, like, you know, we, we maybe go to church and stuff, but we were not true believers.

Speaker 7 But after his experiences there, also seeing the documents that he saw, recognizing that the kind of thing that he was looking at, which is UAP stuff, looked to be exactly like angel contact events, uh he became very religious after that why why

Speaker 7 i've heard that the vatican has what the the largest observatory or the biggest telescope okay so it's not true yeah no it's not the biggest telescope they have telescopes that are large they may have just purchased one they have two observatories one in arizona and one in castle gandolfo which is in row near rome not in rome but near rome um

Speaker 7 they may have

Speaker 7 why why? Well, I mean, they had it before we did, right? So they've had, they've been studying, they've been scientists before Americans were scientists. Okay.

Speaker 7 So it's not, once you start to understand it, it doesn't, it's not weird. It's like, I know it sounds weird because you're not used to thinking about the Vatican has these telescopes.

Speaker 7 What are they doing? But, you know, think about it, Descartes, all those guys, scientists and Catholics, so European Catholics. So once you understand that Catholicism has been, you know,

Speaker 7 around for many, many years, you know,

Speaker 7 you start to recognize that most of the scientists in the Western tradition have been Catholic, you know, or on the outs with Catholics. So Catholics have been around, they've been doing science.

Speaker 7 So, Brother Guy Constant Magnio is the director of this thing called the Vatican Observatory, and they do, they still do science.

Speaker 7 So,

Speaker 7 they're scientists and Catholics.

Speaker 3 So, what do you, I mean, what do you, what?

Speaker 3 I I don't know where you're at. You, we, we, we're talking about, we're talking about Ezekiel, angels.

Speaker 3 First I thought maybe we're going with

Speaker 3 we, I mean you, um,

Speaker 3 UFOs are spiritual entities. Then you're at a crash site and you pick up a chunk of metal.
And now, and we're at the Vatican. So what, what, what do you, what, what are you thinking? What is this?

Speaker 3 What is all of this?

Speaker 7 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 Is it two separate things? Is there a spiritual entity and a nuts and bolts thing?

Speaker 3 Or

Speaker 7 we're I think so. Yeah, I think so.
I think so. I don't know.

Speaker 3 You have to think about this all the time.

Speaker 7 Well, of course, this is what I'm doing right now. So yes, I do.
But that doesn't mean that I have an answer.

Speaker 7 So I do know this. I do know that

Speaker 7 when people who are part of these programs, or not anymore, of course, because the programs are under scrutiny,

Speaker 7 when aerospace people reach out to me, they're looking at this.

Speaker 7 They don't know either. They don't know.
They want to know. So it's an area of exploration.

Speaker 7 And to me,

Speaker 7 there's something that I think some of them are missing. And it's something that Tyler did not miss, is that there's a spiritual component component to this.

Speaker 7 And if you don't get with the spiritual component, you're not going to have access to the information. That's what I believe, only because that's how I've seen it in the last 12 years.

Speaker 7 So since I've been doing this, the people who, there are a lot of people, governments, people who represent government, our government, who are scrambling to

Speaker 7 figure this technology out,

Speaker 7 safeguard this technology, or do something with technology for either weapons or to better humanity,

Speaker 7 all of these things.

Speaker 7 But the people who I've met who seem to have the most access to this, they don't have those intentions. Those intentions are not their intentions.

Speaker 7 So to me, there seems to be, just like when you said you, you know, did psychedelics, your intention was

Speaker 7 allowed you to have a positive experience. That's my interpretation.
Like, because why do I think that? I'm not randomly just thinking that.

Speaker 7 I'm thinking that because I'm going back to the history of these protocols that allow people to access these realms. And when you are reverent and respectful, it seems there's a better outcome.

Speaker 7 Well, maybe that's the case here.

Speaker 7 I don't know, but that's so far my conclusion. So, what I do know, though, is that

Speaker 7 it appears that there's a

Speaker 3 help me understand.

Speaker 3 So you're saying

Speaker 3 that

Speaker 3 your intentions for research might

Speaker 3 trigger a specific outcome.

Speaker 7 Let's see, that sounds very quantum, but

Speaker 7 I think that your character might determine

Speaker 7 access to information or knowledge. So Tyler had a certain character

Speaker 7 and I don't see that in the people who are scrambling to be the first UFO genius scientist.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 7 Completely different characters right there.

Speaker 3 So how do you differentiate the

Speaker 3 I asked you if you believe there's a spiritual component and a kind of nuts and bolts type component. How do you differentiate the two?

Speaker 3 I mean, are they two, are they, do they have any relation to each other?

Speaker 7 I don't know. So, this is something that I think people are trying to figure out.

Speaker 7 Let's put it this way. Okay, if you think about something that we think to be subjective in our minds, completely, like you could even call it spiritual in the sense that it's spirit, it's not matter.

Speaker 7 That would be our thoughts, right? We tend to think of thoughts as completely non-physical, non-material. Would you not agree?

Speaker 3 I don't believe that anymore.

Speaker 7 I know you don't believe it anymore. Okay.

Speaker 7 Why don't you believe that anymore? And I agree with you.

Speaker 3 Why don't I,

Speaker 3 through some of my own experiences and

Speaker 3 interviews, and I just,

Speaker 3 it's impossible for me to articulate this, but I'll try.

Speaker 3 I think that

Speaker 3 you can

Speaker 3 believe

Speaker 3 or manifest or whatever you want to call it

Speaker 3 realities into existence.

Speaker 3 I honestly believe, I think I've done it. I think other people that I know have done this.
I think that we know very little about consciousness.

Speaker 3 and and

Speaker 3 I think I think that we may have the abilities to

Speaker 3 create our own realities

Speaker 3 but we don't have the knowledge on how to do that I think I think we get little snippets on how how that could be done but but as far as like a full scope I don't think anybody has a

Speaker 3 does that make any sense at all?

Speaker 7 Of course, no, it makes perfect sense.

Speaker 7 So, but you did go through a period of not believing that thoughts could be things, right? That could be measurable. Yeah.
Okay.

Speaker 7 So I would suggest this. So in, and this has something to do with the question you asked me about the parts being spiritual or material.

Speaker 7 We're at a point in time, and this is part of what is fascinating to me. So I've been documenting it.
So I I wrote some articles, by the way, my articles are free on Academia EDU.

Speaker 7 And I wrote an article where this was about 2017, 2016, where I was documenting the human brain,

Speaker 7 I mean the computer-brain interface that's happening, you know, that's really taking off right now. And then

Speaker 7 there were two studies, one was at, I think it was the University of Washington,

Speaker 7 where people had,

Speaker 7 and this is now common, where they were using

Speaker 7 brain imaging, but they were able to identify what a person was thinking about. So a person was thinking about a dog, and

Speaker 7 the image of a dog would become something that could be seen. on a computer screen.
So they had technology that was able to read brain waves. So therefore,

Speaker 7 thoughts, which we used to think were completely subjective things that were internal and private, were no longer that. And we were seeing the beginning of that process.

Speaker 7 And I think that the beginning of this process is going to be exponential at this point because of what Elon Musk is doing and other scientists.

Speaker 3 With Neuralink?

Speaker 7 Yeah, with all of these types of things that are happening. I also think that the government has been in on this in terms of its remote viewing programs,

Speaker 7 utilizing

Speaker 7 consciousness, you know, in order to obtain information.

Speaker 7 So

Speaker 7 I would suggest that UAP is like this, is very similar.

Speaker 7 So in terms of the combination, we're going to be, we're going to be able to identify, you know, when people report UAP events, a lot of what happens is that they report experiences of what you call downloads, like experiences of information that they're getting from

Speaker 7 whatever it is at our UAP.

Speaker 7 And that's been consistent in the historical record. Like Joan of Arc, right? This light appears to her, and then it says, do this, do this.
And at first, she resists because she's like, what are you?

Speaker 7 You know, and then she goes, oh, you're St. Michael.
I can trust you. And then she gets the downloads of military information that she actually utilizes.

Speaker 7 Like she's a kid, by the way, when this happens. I think she's 15.

Speaker 7 Wow. Yeah.
So how are catholics in that day and age she's she decides to dress like a boy you know i mean like how is a young girl in that day and age

Speaker 7 convince older men you know that this is a good thing and they're convinced so i so what i'm saying is that um

Speaker 7 it's something like that

Speaker 7 by the way i do think that people should not accept the download as as easily as they do. I've met too many people who are tortured by this process.

Speaker 7 So now that I've been doing this, I've met many people in the thousands who tell me about their experiences. And a lot of them are brilliant people who are super successful.

Speaker 7 And they believe that their success is because of the download experience that they have.

Speaker 7 But that download experience also causes them to receive so much information that they believe they should tell people about. Like, oh, I received this information.
I really should tell this person.

Speaker 7 And they get tortured by these experiences. In the very beginning of the publishing of my book, I would get correspondents and outright people talking to me and coming to me and saying,

Speaker 7 You'll have this experience, but you have to accept it first. You have to say yes.
And I would always say no because I don't trust it. So I think that that was smart on my part.

Speaker 7 So, you know, if you get something and it's like this thing that says, okay, you have to accept this in order to get this download. Do you accept it?

Speaker 7 Why accept it? Like, why?

Speaker 7 So people, in our time,

Speaker 7 we don't have the language. We've lost religion for the most part, right? So we are, even you admit, I'm Catholic, but I don't know my tradition.
I never learned the Bible or anything like that.

Speaker 7 So we've... effectively lost our connection to these wisdom traditions.
And I'm not saying we should keep all of what they say.

Speaker 7 A lot of those things I don't keep, but I'll tell you what I do keep, and that's the reticence to allow my mind to be hijacked. So I call it cognitive sovereignty.

Speaker 7 So I think we should identify that we do have, you know, sovereignty if, you know, we're quickly losing it because of the

Speaker 7 the technologies that are happening. But we've got to, at least, where where this is concerned, where UAP is concerned, I think we should be careful and not just say yes to that.

Speaker 3 I mean, so

Speaker 3 you're a skeptic.

Speaker 3 Did you think that

Speaker 3 UAP, sorry, I'm off on my timeline. Did you think that UAP activity when you went to the crash site was

Speaker 3 complete bullshit? Or did you think it was some type of a spiritual entity have you dove in? Like, had you looked into the Vatican stuff before you went to

Speaker 7 yeah

Speaker 3 so I already knew the tradition of you know contact events with angels and okay you know that kind of stuff okay um did you believe it at that time did you believe that it was I believe that people had experiences so when you went to the crash site and you saw an actual chunk of metal uh that you believe came off of some type of a I'm still not sure I believe that I don't know what it came off of I just know that it was a real physical object so it didn't necessarily turn you into, it did not turn you into a belief.

Speaker 3 No, no, no. Did it, I mean, it had to have brought up some type of, it had to have brought up thoughts.
Yeah. If this is real,

Speaker 3 is it two separate,

Speaker 3 is it two completely separate things? Because then I don't think a chunk of metal is going to fall off of an angel.

Speaker 7 It's hard to say.

Speaker 3 Or a spiritual entity.

Speaker 7 I don't know.

Speaker 3 So when people. What do you think about

Speaker 3 Ryan Graves or

Speaker 3 I forgot, is it John Favor?

Speaker 7 Yeah, John Favor and Ryan Graves fighter pilots.

Speaker 3 I mean, what do you think about accounts, first-hand accounts like these guys?

Speaker 7 Yep. Totally anomalous UAP is what I think.

Speaker 7 It could be, I mean,

Speaker 7 they don't know.

Speaker 7 They think, I mean, I've heard Ryan Graves talk. I was in a talk that he gave to scientists and he was explaining his experience in more detail than normal.

Speaker 7 And it was interesting because he said that through different types of technologies like, you know, infrared goggles and things like that, but other types of things, you could see a whole array of different types of things.

Speaker 7 So, and I know that already. So that even comes from, if you look at the phology of John Keel, he talks about this thing called the super spectrum.

Speaker 7 And he's basically saying that some people, you know, how humans only see certain visual, you know, light and dogs and cats see other things, right?

Speaker 7 So it could be that these objects are not, we cannot see them with the kind of, but some of us might be able to. Like some of us might be the unlucky few that can see these kinds of things because,

Speaker 7 oh, this also occurs in massive events like Medjigoria, like Virgin Mary apparition sites, where only the visionaries can see the Virgin Mary, but no one else can.

Speaker 7 But they've been tested and their eyes are tracking something absolutely. And they're all tracking the same thing.
So they're seeing something.

Speaker 7 So, I mean, it's not just UAP stuff that's anomalous and weird.

Speaker 7 It's religious stuff, too. So I think that we are coming into a space and UAP is helping us do that where the religious stuff is actually becoming much more real to us, at least for me.

Speaker 7 Like when I started to see UAP as real for these scientists, I started to think, this religious stuff that I've been looking at is real too.

Speaker 7 I mean, I actually believed in it, but I didn't believe in it as viscerally. I didn't believe in it as, you know, crying out for God to help me if, you know,

Speaker 7 through this because it's real. That's the kind of.

Speaker 3 Have you talked to any of the higher ups or leadership or

Speaker 3 clergy or whatever they call it at the Vatican?

Speaker 7 The magisterium?

Speaker 3 What do they say about this type of thing?

Speaker 7 Some of them are horrified that people are even going to the Vatican and talking about the Vatican with respect to UFOs.

Speaker 7 And I understand why.

Speaker 7 I don't think that they're inclined to view it as UFOs. I think that they're inclined to view it as we live in a universe where God's created many things

Speaker 7 and

Speaker 7 these could be angels that people are seeing or demons. I think that a lot of people in the Vatican will look at it from a spiritual perspective.
That's how they looked at it before.

Speaker 7 And I don't, I think that they're waiting for secular people to kind of get up to speed.

Speaker 3 I really want to know what you think.

Speaker 3 Do you think they come from space?

Speaker 7 The ones that we're seeing now, okay, so

Speaker 7 I have a particular perspective. It might might change, but this is what my perspective is now.
And it's purely my own based on, and I'm not advising anyone to believe what I believe.

Speaker 7 So that said, okay, and of course,

Speaker 7 this is nothing that can be put in a paper and peer-reviewed and published. This is just my perspective.
I'm talking to Sean and telling you and people who listen to you.

Speaker 7 To me, this looks pretty weird and I'm not liking it. Okay, so I get a feeling from it.
And

Speaker 7 I feel that, and especially what happened to me after American Cosmic was published,

Speaker 7 I had people surrounding me. So I had, first I was, you know, I had a

Speaker 7 collegial friendship with Tyler and Gary, and we were studying this.

Speaker 7 these objects and things like that and i and

Speaker 7 tyler became a Catholic and, or, you know, just much more Christian, let's put it that way, a believer that what he was studying were

Speaker 7 like angels and that changed his life. Okay.
And then I felt, wow, what I'm studying is real. And that changed my life.
Okay. So I was changed.
Directly after that, I was targeted

Speaker 7 by what

Speaker 7 My friend Tim Gallaudet would call counterintelligence. And

Speaker 7 they weren't, they had the same idea, by the way. They did not view these things as extraterrestrial and they thought that they were bad.
And so this group was,

Speaker 7 I got

Speaker 7 a distinct feeling that

Speaker 7 there's something really bad happening. There's something really bad.
And I started to talk to people who now we call whistleblowers. So they would talk to me and they would say the same thing.

Speaker 7 They're afraid. They would be afraid.
And by the way, none of those whistleblowers are at the congressional hearings, hearings, none of them. And they don't want to be.

Speaker 7 And in fact, most of the information that's getting taken from them is being taken in ways that are not

Speaker 7 public and not like what I would call nice. Okay.
It's uncomfortable.

Speaker 7 So I believe that if we were to call these things anything, they would be in the realm of like

Speaker 7 the angelic and the demonic.

Speaker 7 That's how I feel about them personally right now. My mind might change in two years with more data.

Speaker 7 And I feel that because of

Speaker 7 the types of responses I've had from

Speaker 7 people who are associated with our government and they shouldn't, in my opinion, they shouldn't be.

Speaker 7 That's how I feel. My experiences.

Speaker 3 Interesting. Interesting.

Speaker 3 You talk a lot about.

Speaker 3 Thank you for sharing that, by the way.

Speaker 7 Yeah, this is, I think, this is the first time I've actually shared it, to tell you the truth. I mean, I'm an academic, and that's, you know, and I've been talking as an academic.

Speaker 7 I've been going to universities to talk. I've now, I'm now talking publicly, and this is the first time I've actually said that.

Speaker 3 That's what I think. Not that I've done a even a smidget of the research that you have, but

Speaker 3 that's,

Speaker 3 I mean,

Speaker 3 it seems to be the only thing that could not leave a trace.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 when I brought up, you know, kind of what I think about,

Speaker 3 you know,

Speaker 3 other realms and manifesting or praying into or whatever you want to say,

Speaker 3 I think that the human mind, I think we've been indoctrinated to think that we have

Speaker 3 a lot of limitations that are not really there. And

Speaker 3 I don't know how we're going to break that.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 you talk a lot about technologies. What kind of technologies are you speaking about?

Speaker 7 Okay, so are we talking about the UAP-affiliated type of technologies or the AI that's happening right now?

Speaker 3 Let's go with both. Okay, okay.

Speaker 7 So let's see um

Speaker 7 well obviously

Speaker 7 we have some issues coming up with with respect to ai and especially with things like neuralink right not to say it's bad right i'm just saying that we've got things to deal with as as it's becoming much more um

Speaker 7 rolled out to the public uh

Speaker 7 So

Speaker 7 the cognitive sovereignty type of thing. I mean, I think there's a point, there's,

Speaker 7 if you look at the Bible, the Bible does say this, that at some point, all the things that are hidden will be exposed. Okay.

Speaker 7 And I was talking to, this sounds weird, but a Game of Thrones producer, one of the producers for that show, and he was asking me what I thought would be kind of like if the apocalypse happened, how I thought it would roll out, because I think he's thinking of making a show about it or something.

Speaker 7 And I said, okay. And this made him nervous too, which I thought was pretty funny.
I said, All those thoughts that you have, you know, they're all going to be known.

Speaker 3 He was like, That's horrible.

Speaker 7 He's like, That's terrible. And I said, But actually, that's literally what it says.
So, all the things that were hidden, you know, will be known. And what does that mean?

Speaker 7 I think part of it is what we're seeing with

Speaker 7 AI, you know, that

Speaker 7 we, our thoughts,

Speaker 7 what if our thoughts were known? Like, how would that,

Speaker 7 how would that change us? You know?

Speaker 3 How would that change us? I guess that would be the ultimate truth.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Right?

Speaker 7 I think so.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 7 what if we, I mean, that's something to think about. But again, I said, look, I didn't make that up.
That's actually there in the Bible. You can look it up.

Speaker 3 I mean, if you can see and read somebody's thoughts, then you know their true character.

Speaker 7 Yeah. And that, of course, you know,

Speaker 7 I heard your discussion with the exorcist. I forgot his name.

Speaker 3 Father Dan Rehill.

Speaker 7 Yeah, yeah. It was fascinating.
Where, you know, he talked about this, and you did too, about the reading of the minds, right?

Speaker 7 So this you see in the Catholic historical record, and you also see it in almost all religious traditions, right? Where when a person has

Speaker 7 done, even people without doing a lot of the protocols or a lot of, you know, prayer or meditation, they have this ability.

Speaker 7 It's called the discernment of souls to actually know a person's character or read their minds. Right.

Speaker 7 And so, yeah, so I have that in that record I told you about the Joseph of Copertino. Apparently, he had that ability to know.

Speaker 7 that kind of thing.

Speaker 7 Yeah, so it's probably just something that

Speaker 7 is possible. Obviously, Obviously, it's possible.

Speaker 3 What are you talking about with AI? What else?

Speaker 7 Okay, so there is a talk that I give occasionally when I'm asked to do that, and that's to talk to teachers about the use of AI for college students and high school students.

Speaker 7 And it's not just AI, it's technology in general. And part of it is basically what happens to our brains when we're in certain developmental stages, like we're 11 up to 19.

Speaker 7 So certain developmental stages happen in the brain. And when, I don't want to call any social media out in particular, but some of them are created to shift the brain.
Now, whether that's...

Speaker 7 an intentional weaponization which can damage the brains of young people or whether it is something that

Speaker 7 coders did purposely to create a product that was addictive for monetary purposes, it's not doing us any favors because it's creating

Speaker 7 a generation now of people who have to fix that because their brain has been trained on it. So, you know,

Speaker 7 my work, my greater work, even beyond UAP and Catholicism, was looking at how technology and belief

Speaker 7 work together.

Speaker 7 I think you have Sean Webb on here.

Speaker 7 Do you know Sean Webb?

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 You know Sean Webb? Yeah.

Speaker 7 Well, I don't know him in person. We've only corresponded, but I know his work.
And he's, yeah, so he's doing this too. He's trying to ameliorate, right, this issue that we're having.

Speaker 7 And I do know coders and people who are working in AI who understand this.

Speaker 7 And then my friend Jose, who's the former Marine who was my student as well,

Speaker 7 he's working on a program also. He works directly with high school students.
And what he's trying to do too is to help

Speaker 7 adjudicate to

Speaker 7 stop this happening because it's happening. And

Speaker 7 he says that it's a weapon, that we're all now targets.

Speaker 7 Whereas wars were fought before with

Speaker 7 certain people and targets. Now we're all the target.
because the weapons are now, we carry them around, right? And we subscribe to them and so forth. Um, and it's a very real, it's a real thing.

Speaker 7 So, um, I, you know, people at the university are slow to understand this. People in the high schools, the teachers see it, but they can't stop it.
The parents can't stop it.

Speaker 7 The parents don't even, the parents are probably addicted themselves.

Speaker 7 So, um, so yeah, so this is the talk I give that I'm most happy about when I'm asked to give a talk because teachers come up to me and they're they're in tears. They want to help their students.

Speaker 7 um i have teenagers you know i and i have students all my students are between the ages of 18 and like 24. um

Speaker 7 this is what calls us we this you know this is a group this is a problem that needs to be addressed now

Speaker 7 we can't really put it off so this is something that is more important to me than studying uap or studying Catholic history. I'm more concerned about this.

Speaker 3 About social media.

Speaker 7 And what it's doing to them.

Speaker 3 And the technology behind it. Yeah.

Speaker 3 What do you think people can do?

Speaker 7 I mean, when I tell them this, there's really no incentive for them to do this. So I understand that, but we've got to not raise our kids on it.
We have to let our kids go outside. Yeah.

Speaker 7 We have to go outside because we could easily become addicted too. Most of my work is now online, and it shouldn't be.
I'm a teacher.

Speaker 7 I should be like like with my students. We should be talking to one another.

Speaker 7 So universities have to stop this process, which I believe is intentionally

Speaker 7 part of like, you know, stopping the

Speaker 7 flourishing of Americans and humans.

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 as a sounds like devout Catholic woman who's very well versed in

Speaker 3 all of this, What do you think about spiritual warfare?

Speaker 3 Is that what all this is?

Speaker 3 All the stuff we're seeing?

Speaker 7 Yeah, if we call it spiritual warfare, there's also real warfare, right? So there's,

Speaker 7 I think they're both real. And I think that it's happening.
We're having, so when I say we're in, we're targets, right?

Speaker 7 Because of what's happening, that sounds like a conspiracy theory, right? And so people would call, I know people at my university would say, Diana, don't say that.

Speaker 7 You know, that's, that makes it so bad and evil.

Speaker 7 But

Speaker 7 the things that are happening, I go back to RFK's speech, you know, when he said he was going to be behind Trump. And he gave this speech.

Speaker 7 And he said, if we could just love our children more than we hate each other. And he talked about the injuries that children have, you know, because of certain things that are happening now.

Speaker 7 I mean, that, I thought that was truth right there, you know, and I thought that that

Speaker 7 was something that I wish people in the school systems would take to heart because they're the kids that were charged with, you know, teaching.

Speaker 7 What are we doing? You know,

Speaker 7 we shouldn't be teaching them through the medium of the iPhone or the phone, you know?

Speaker 3 I guess what I'm asking is, how is this happening? Are people under some type of a demonic influence? And that's how this is happening? You know, with.

Speaker 7 If that's, I don't know. But if it is the case, we could easily get out of it.

Speaker 7 We could choose not to be under that influence. That's a, that's, we have human freedom.
We have freedom to make a choice.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.
I don't, I kind of feel like most people don't realize they are under that influence.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 7 What do you think? You tell me, and I'll talk to you more about it. You do

Speaker 7 that.

Speaker 3 I'm just trying to explore all of this stuff, but I think it's,

Speaker 3 I don't know.

Speaker 3 I'm at the beginning of this in kind of cracking this open in my own way. But I mean,

Speaker 3 it's always been good versus evil, right? But

Speaker 3 it just, the lines are becoming very blurred. And,

Speaker 3 you know, the thing is now that just

Speaker 3 nothing really makes sense to me that's going on. Some of the, you know, the stuff that's going on with kids and

Speaker 3 I don't know where it is coming from. Or, I mean, it's,

Speaker 3 do you know what I mean?

Speaker 7 Yeah, I definitely know you.

Speaker 3 Some of these agendas just don't make sense. I don't know how many, I don't understand how many people,

Speaker 3 how so many people can get behind some of these just absurd agendas that are only are only even possible through technologies

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 and like sex change

Speaker 3 it it's it's such a foreign

Speaker 3 like how did that happen you know and um

Speaker 3 stuff like that you know within kids you know and and

Speaker 3 that's that's kind of where I'm at.

Speaker 7 I understand that

Speaker 7 I get it.

Speaker 7 So

Speaker 7 I'll tell you a little bit about my struggle with that.

Speaker 7 And it was during the writing for Encounters. And that's when I already knew that the government wasn't on the up and up with a lot of things.
Okay, no problem. I get that.

Speaker 7 I've known that for a long time since I was in, since I was young, okay.

Speaker 7 But when it becomes so real to you, like for me, it was the UAP thing and I was like, okay, this is really,

Speaker 7 then I began to ask this question. And then Jose influences me a lot by explaining warfare today, right? This is how warfare is fought today.

Speaker 7 Your kids are targeted. And I can, and by the way, I actually homeschooled my kids for a while until I couldn't, you know, they exceeded my ability in certain areas.
And

Speaker 7 so I could see once they transitioned to like school, right, how that would then impact them. And it was frightening to watch.

Speaker 7 And so

Speaker 7 I then

Speaker 7 was, you know, as a mom, but also as a professor who's been through this, this UAP kind of realization and recognition of, you know,

Speaker 7 the suppression of knowledge.

Speaker 7 It brings it home to you when it's your kids. And so I was depressed, okay, I was depressed.
And

Speaker 7 I was depressed for about a year, maybe longer. And so

Speaker 7 I thought,

Speaker 7 who has talked about this before?

Speaker 7 And so for me, going to books is like what I do.

Speaker 7 So I I looked back and I saw that, again, Plato's Republic, it talks about the cave, the allegory of the cave is like where, you know, you're in this cave and people are creating a fictional world.

Speaker 7 It's basically the matrix. So if you haven't read Plato's Republic, the Matrix is about it.
And then you've got Brave New World was Plato's, an update of Plato's Republic.

Speaker 7 And then 1984 was also an update of the Allegory of the Cave.

Speaker 7 So this is the idea that there's something that's being hidden from us, and there are characters who are hiding it from us. And like in 1984, they want, they're, they're terrible, right?

Speaker 7 They're going to try, there's a never-ending war, right, in 1984. And so people have been through this depression, Sean, and have like talked about it.

Speaker 7 And it made me more depressed because I was like, damn, it looks structural. It looks like this is just the structure of the world.
Who else has said this? Well, Jesus did. Jesus said this.

Speaker 7 Jesus said, you must live in the world, but not be of it.

Speaker 7 Jesus also spoke in parables, which was code. He was speaking to his own audience.
Okay, he was speaking to the audience who had ears to hear.

Speaker 7 Okay, so that's when I was like, ah, now I finally understand. Like, it takes me a while to really get something.

Speaker 7 So it had to, I had to go through those experiences in order to truly understand that not everybody's going to get it. And yeah, they're going to look like they're, you call it demonic.

Speaker 7 I might call it they're in the matrix. Like there's different words to describe it, but they're not awakened to something that you and I feel like they should be awakened to.

Speaker 7 And in fact, they're hurting themselves, okay?

Speaker 3 See?

Speaker 7 So it's, it's like something that's, that's maybe the way it is.

Speaker 7 When you talk about, you know, some of this being structural and it sounds like over generations and generations it seems like it I mean if how Socrates is talking about it and then you know through Plato and then Jesus is talking about it and then it gets re you know it gets redone in every generation brave new world 1984 the matrix in the 1990s like we it's the same kind of recognition has anything been become like

Speaker 7 What does this mean?

Speaker 7 I mean, I think it has a message for us.

Speaker 7 And so you and me, we're American. We want to save the world.
We're like, we have it inbred that we can make it better. This can be better, right?

Speaker 7 But this kind of thing suggests that it's structural, just posing it.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 you think that there may be families or

Speaker 3 What I mean who holds the key?

Speaker 7 Okay, so you're asking who are the puppet masters? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
That's what I asked too.

Speaker 7 So when we're taught in college or high school, we're taught the Plato's Republic thing and the allegory of the cave.

Speaker 7 And, you know, if you pay attention, you note that these people are in a cave and these puppet masters are making puppets on the wall and people think that that's reality.

Speaker 7 And then one lucky person gets out and goes up out of the cave and says, wow, you know, there's a whole reality out here. I have an obligation to go back and tell these people that they're in a cave.

Speaker 7 They go back to tell the person they're in the cave. And this is how Socrates talks about it, says,

Speaker 7 they'll kill you because they think you're crazy. And in fact, they think that person is crazy.
Okay. So, all right.
So that's kind of the setup.

Speaker 7 My question has always been, you know, and then you talk about it as a metaphor in college and stuff. And your professor talks about it.

Speaker 7 But my question was this, was, and my daughter, by the way, took a college class and it was on that. And so I said, who do you think those puppet masters are?

Speaker 7 And she said, mama, that's just an allegory. There are no real puppet masters.
And I was like, no, I think there are. I think there are.
Think about it again. Go read it again.

Speaker 7 And so then I'd asked friends of mine who, you know, had read it and should know. And they were like, dang, I never thought about that.

Speaker 7 Finally, I found a philosopher who reached out to me actually, saw me on a podcast and said,

Speaker 7 these puppet masters, I agree with you. They are a real thing.
Like Plato just doesn't put something in there.

Speaker 7 So who are these puppet masters? I think that's where George Orwell identifies it. And you know who agrees is Aldous Huxley.
Aldous Huxley.

Speaker 7 So he has all your viewers, everyone should watch Aldous Huxley's, I think it's 1958 talk, maybe it's in the 60s, but I don't think so, at UC Berkeley, where he basically talks about the puppet masters and it's his group.

Speaker 3 Wow. Does he talk about how,

Speaker 3 I mean, so to pass on, to be,

Speaker 3 so what are they born into the

Speaker 7 oligarchy? Yeah, he says it's the oligarchy. He goes, it's always existed and presumably always will.
That's how he opens his speech. It's a horrifying, enlightening talk.
Everyone should watch it.

Speaker 7 It's free on just internet search it, duck, duck, go it or whatnot. It'll come up.
And he's a super articulate elite.

Speaker 7 And he writes Brave New World. And he tells us how it's going to happen.
And it's going to, we're going to like our servitude because we'll be taking drugs. That's pretty much it.

Speaker 3 How does this get passed on from generation to generation over thousands of years?

Speaker 7 Okay, so this answer was pro provided to me actually i don't know if it's true though but by the counter intelligence group so basically there was a person who had been connected to a family that had been around since like traces of reach back to like 1200 and this family was

Speaker 7 the um

Speaker 7 They weren't the kings, but they were the people. I forgot their name, but they have a specific name.
But it's the person who takes care of the bedpan of the king. Do you know that person?

Speaker 7 So there's a specific job. The bedpan, of course, is the bathroom, like the toilet for the king.
And this person has to change it for the king so that it's always nice and clean.

Speaker 7 Now, this person has access to the most private parts of what the king knows. And this later becomes, this is what this person says, intelligence communities.

Speaker 7 Goes into like, you know, the Vatican.

Speaker 7 and these people become

Speaker 7 the people who gather the intelligence

Speaker 7 associated with the king, the royalty, the dynasty.

Speaker 7 I don't know if this is true, but this was what this person said. And this person, by the way, had some evidence.
It's not like I'm just saying I'm accepting a made-up story.

Speaker 7 Like, I saw this person's family, like his historical photos.

Speaker 3 Interesting. And so what? Does that person manipulate the king into

Speaker 3 some type of agenda?

Speaker 7 Yeah, so this would be the oligarchy that Alex Huxley is talking about.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 Interesting.

Speaker 3 Very interesting.

Speaker 3 I know you've worked a lot with

Speaker 3 NASA.

Speaker 3 or people inside NASA.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I haven't actually worked with NASA, and NASA would be horrified to say that I did. Yeah,

Speaker 3 I didn't mean to say you're not.

Speaker 7 People affiliated with NASA with NASA, yes, I have worked with you.

Speaker 3 Excuse me, thank you for the correction. Yeah.

Speaker 3 What are some of the,

Speaker 3 there's a lot of

Speaker 3 conspiracies

Speaker 3 around NASA.

Speaker 3 Is any of that

Speaker 3 ring true? to you.

Speaker 3 What's your experience been?

Speaker 7 Well, when I first started to do the work on you know looking at uap and so forth um in 2012 and 13 i decided to look back uh to our space program basically i thought you know surely there's information there so um the air force has an archive and uh and there's a lot of information.

Speaker 7 And what I found was interesting. So I looked not only at our space program, but the Russian space program, because both of these programs got us off Earth into space.

Speaker 7 And the Russian space program did first.

Speaker 7 So

Speaker 7 both of them were interesting to me. So, and most likely, if people are up in space, maybe they're seeing something up there.
You know, maybe stuff has been reported. A couple of things happened.

Speaker 7 First was that I did have friends who were NASA affiliated, and they looked into it for me to see if they could get me into the archive. And at first, it was like, no problem, she can come.

Speaker 7 What is she studying? And then they said, well, she's studying the history of like UFOs. And they're like, absolutely not.

Speaker 7 You know, so I was not I could not go and I was like oh that's interesting so that was of interest to me but also I learned about the history of our space program and you know one of my colleagues was

Speaker 7 always going to JPL right so you know

Speaker 7 jet propulsion laboratories and I found out that it had been created by Jack Parsons. So it was Jack Parsons laboratory.
And, but nobody knew that.

Speaker 7 So a lot of people I talked to who were NASA employees, they didn't know about Jack Parsons. In fact, the person, Tyler, he did not know either about Jack Parsons.

Speaker 7 So Jack Parsons was one of the early founders of our rocket technology program. Okay.
And, but he's not talked about.

Speaker 7 And the reason he's not talked about is, and I understand why, is because he believed he was getting the inspiration for his rocket technologies through doing rituals.

Speaker 7 And he worked with Aleister Crowley and

Speaker 7 the guy who found Scientology.

Speaker 7 Why can't I remember his name? L. Ron Hubbard.

Speaker 3 L. Ron Hubbard.
L.

Speaker 7 Ron Hubbard.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 so Parsons is believing that he is

Speaker 7 contacting non-human intelligences that are they for his interpretation of them is that they're like deities, right? They're deities.

Speaker 7 And he's he even manifested one, right? And then married her. And

Speaker 7 so, but he believed that they were allowing him to create the rocket technology. Now,

Speaker 7 that's his belief. And he was doing rituals to that effect.
On the Russian side, you have the

Speaker 7 Konstantin Jaikovsky, okay, so earlier than Jack Parsons, but also creating rocket technology, also believed in non-human intelligence, but was Christian.

Speaker 7 So he believed that these intelligences were angelic and that he was, if you're in contact with that realm, that if you're specifically genius enough, you know, that you'd be able to interpret their information and create what he created, which was he was the rock, he was like Jack Parsons, but for the Russian side.

Speaker 7 So each of those kind of what we call them fathers of our space program were involved in something that was pretty similar, but one thought it was angelic and the other just thought, thought it was,

Speaker 7 I mean, he's working with Aleister Crowley.

Speaker 7 So, so, yeah.

Speaker 3 Wow. That's interesting.

Speaker 7 Yeah, it was really interesting. And what I found was that our space program today even has some really interesting rituals associated with it when it does certain launches at Cape Canaveral.

Speaker 7 Maybe not all of them, but the one that Tyler was involved with,

Speaker 7 they had

Speaker 7 images of Roman gods and goddesses put on the rockets.

Speaker 7 They would use Latin on their patches, you know, their mission patches, and they would also have specific rituals that they would do, sometimes involving U.S. presidents.

Speaker 7 They would position the presidents at a certain point where

Speaker 7 astronomical events, you know, would happen. And this, so Tyler.

Speaker 3 So you had like the president of the United States.

Speaker 7 Yes, the president of the united states they didn't know what they were doing they were just being positioned there so you know they're like stand here mr obama or president obama and he would stand there with his wife and look this direction it was part of the whole thing and there were photos he has photos of all of that i mean what can you be a little more specific what

Speaker 7 why would they stand him in a in a well see okay so this is obviously some type of ritual and i don't know why they're doing it. I just know that I know, I mean, I'm a scholar of religion.

Speaker 7 I know a ritual and I see one. He didn't even understand it.
So he was, he would, I noticed that they were using Latin and I noticed it wasn't medieval Latin.

Speaker 7 I was like, this is a particular form of Latin. It seems like it's Roman theology.
So, you know, they're using the images of Roman gods.

Speaker 7 And I would ask him, I said, why are you using the images of Roman gods? Why are you putting them on your mission patches and also utilizing Latin phrases from that time period?

Speaker 7 I mean, you're sending it up into space.

Speaker 7 Who up in space is going to read Latin? And his answer was our sponsors.

Speaker 7 So, I mean, that's what he said. And so he also had all.

Speaker 3 Which Roman gods, do you know?

Speaker 7 Yeah. So there would be obviously Apollo, right? So all the missions, if you think of all the missions, they're all those gods and goddesses.

Speaker 3 Hmm.

Speaker 3 Do you have any ideas of where this stemmed from?

Speaker 7 It could, okay, so I do.

Speaker 7 It's just a theory, though. So, and I could be completely wrong, but it seems to me that there might be an element within our government that maintains this theological tradition, this Roman theology.

Speaker 7 Could it be a form of Freemasonry? It could be. I don't know.
But I just know that that's what it looks like.

Speaker 3 Interesting.

Speaker 3 Why would they carry on these traditions?

Speaker 7 I think at some level there's belief in those traditions. I don't think that they would do it just because.
Do you?

Speaker 3 I don't know. I mean,

Speaker 3 could have played devil's advocate here a little bit, but I mean, you know, I was a SEAL. I was the agency.

Speaker 3 We had developed our own traditions. And

Speaker 3 for example,

Speaker 3 in one of my platoons,

Speaker 3 we

Speaker 3 had a patch and had a Spartan helmet on it.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 we,

Speaker 3 underneath the Spartan helmet,

Speaker 3 we put a saying that

Speaker 3 the Spartans used to say that said, come home with your shield or on it. We put that in Greek underneath.
And so, you know, somebody could probably look at that and go,

Speaker 3 why do these Americans have Greek writing under a Spartan helmet? Because we, because Spartans were all badass warriors that we aspire to be. And

Speaker 3 so we kind of, you know, adopted some of their

Speaker 3 traditions, sayings,

Speaker 3 whatever you want to call it.

Speaker 3 It's really more of a morality type, like a morale type thing

Speaker 3 to keep us going than

Speaker 3 really anything else.

Speaker 7 So that's what I think, because if you asked anybody like Tyler, me asking him those questions, why are you doing this? He did not know. So in a sense, and I even wonder about like, you know, the use.

Speaker 7 I mean, I understand the Spartans were badass warriors, right? So of course.

Speaker 7 But I mean, the very specific positioning of the presidents and, you know, the attention to detail seemed pretty,

Speaker 7 I honestly, that's all I have for that. I don't know.
I don't.

Speaker 3 I'm with you. I just, you know, I try to, I also, you know.

Speaker 7 Of course, we have to be that way. We have to, like, you know.

Speaker 3 I mean, Indians, you know, I mean, a lot of like there are, there's a team over at

Speaker 3 SEAL Team Six, you know, and, and,

Speaker 3 and it's,

Speaker 3 it's a, it's a, probably going to, it's probably not an Indian, I don't know, but it's, you know, they all have feathers, you know, and, and,

Speaker 3 and, they, you know, it's, it's a tradition at that unit now.

Speaker 3 Or, you know, a lot of people in that space gravitate towards

Speaker 3 Vikings and have Viking sayings. And there are Latin sayings too.
So it, I don't know, you know, could be

Speaker 3 probably not if you're positioning a president in a certain manner, but

Speaker 3 you know, it's, it's.

Speaker 3 Could be something harmless.

Speaker 7 Yeah, yeah, I agree. I mean, it could also be that the Romans ruled the world, right? First First century, Rome was an empire.
And maybe that's what they're signaling. We are the empire.

Speaker 7 And if anybody else is in space, we are the empire. That could be that too.
You know, so it could be as simple as that.

Speaker 3 Well, Diana, is there anything you want to talk about today that we haven't discussed yet?

Speaker 7 I think we discussed a lot of things today, so I think we're probably good.

Speaker 3 Would you come back?

Speaker 7 Absolutely. Wait, wait, I have a question.
Do I get a gun next time?

Speaker 3 Do you want a gun?

Speaker 7 I'm just joking.

Speaker 7 I had to ask for my son.

Speaker 3 We can do that.

Speaker 3 Can you give me three people that you think would be that you would like to see on this show?

Speaker 7 Three people that I'd like to see on this show. I'd like to see Dr.
Ia Whiteley. So she is a pilot and a space,

Speaker 7 she helps train astronauts, and she was at University College London. She's really interesting, so I'd like to see her.
Um,

Speaker 7 if you could get Tyler D on the show, I'd like to see Tyler D on the show.

Speaker 3 Well, I know somebody that could probably make that connection, okay, okay,

Speaker 3 sitting right across from me, but uh,

Speaker 7 um,

Speaker 7 and uh, let's see who else would I like to see.

Speaker 7 Do you have plans to get Elon Musk on the show?

Speaker 3 I would love to get Elon Musk on the show.

Speaker 7 Okay, that would be a good one, too.

Speaker 3 All right, perfect.

Speaker 3 Well, Diana, I just, once again, I want to say, what a fascinating conversation. I love talking to you.
And

Speaker 3 I hope to see you again. I can't wait to see what's next.
What is next for you? Before we do end this, I'm sorry.

Speaker 7 Oh, no, that's okay. Yeah.
So I'm doing another book on, it's called The Uncanny Frontier about the probably my last book on UFOs, I'm thinking.

Speaker 7 And I also teach a class, actually it's a class that I teach classes on UAP not affiliated with the university, by the way.

Speaker 7 So I do that and

Speaker 7 And I teach a class on those books that we were talking about.

Speaker 7 The class is called The Original Red Pill.

Speaker 7 And it's basically about Plato's Republic and then Jesus's Gospels and how those went into 1984 and Brave New World.

Speaker 7 So it's basically a class on, you know, what do we do now that we're confronted with the world we live in.

Speaker 3 Perfect. When does the book come out?

Speaker 7 So the book comes out this coming fall.

Speaker 3 Oh, okay.

Speaker 7 Or maybe winter. It's supposed to be done in the summer.

Speaker 3 Okay, so next year.

Speaker 7 Next year, yeah. Perfect.

Speaker 3 Well, maybe we'll have you back on then if you're

Speaker 3 too.

Speaker 7 Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much, Sean.

Speaker 3 My pleasure. One last question.
Okay.

Speaker 3 Are we living in a cave?

Speaker 7 Some of us.

Speaker 3 All right. Perfect.
It's a realm, isn't it?

Speaker 3 All right. Well, Diana, thank you very much.
I really appreciate it, and I did enjoy it.

Speaker 7 Yeah, me too. Me too.
Thanks, Sean. I appreciate it.
Yeah.

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