#148 Alan C. Mack - Flying Through Hell: Real Combat Stories from a Night Stalker Pilot

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Speaker 3 Alan Mack, welcome to the show, man.

Speaker 5 Oh, thanks for having me.

Speaker 3 It's my pleasure.

Speaker 5 So,

Speaker 3 first helicopter pilot

Speaker 3 on the show from Nightstalker TF-160,

Speaker 3 man, I've been wanting to get one of you guys for a long time. And then we connected, what, about two years ago? About a year and a half.
And a year and a half ago. And then

Speaker 3 for whatever reason, the conversation kind of fell off.

Speaker 3 But now you're here, and man, I'm glad to be. We've had a ton of requests for TF-160th, guys.
So

Speaker 3 thank you for making the trip.

Speaker 5 Glad to be here. That's all I can say.

Speaker 3 But yeah.

Speaker 5 So everybody

Speaker 3 starts off with an intro. So, man, you've been a part of like so much history,

Speaker 3 high-profile missions in the GWAD.

Speaker 3 I just can't wait to get another perspective. We've interviewed a lot of guys that you've,

Speaker 3 a lot of guys that have been on ops that you've been a part of, and

Speaker 3 very apparent. We have a lot of mutual friends.

Speaker 3 That's like I'm blown up. Hey, you got to get this guy on the show.
But

Speaker 3 I just, I can't wait to get another perspective. And I want to dig into your training and all that stuff and get

Speaker 3 the life of a

Speaker 3 Nightstalker documented. But

Speaker 3 quick rundown of your intro. You've served more than 35 years, 17 of which were served in Army Special Operations as a combat and instructor pilot.

Speaker 3 Entrusted with the United States Military Academy Flight Detachment at West Point, New York, logged more than 6,700 flying hours, 3,200 with night vision goggles.

Speaker 3 Taken part in Operation Desert Shield, Desert Storm, and was a major factor in the global war on terror. Flew MH-47s while assigned to 160th SOAR, the Army's only Special Operations Aviation Regiment.

Speaker 3 Your crew was one of the first into Afghanistan and the first into Mazar Sharif as part of America's response to the attacks on 9-11.

Speaker 3 Highly decorated, receiving the Legion of Merit, two distinguished flying crosses, three bronze star medals, three meritorious service medals ten air medals one with valor combat action badge and the army broken wing award

Speaker 3 now you serve your local government as deputy commissioner of emergency services for orange county new york you're the author of razor 03 a night stalker's wars

Speaker 3 And you have another book coming out, from my understanding, when we spoke at breakfast. Do you have a title for that one yet?

Speaker 5 The working title is Chinooks in the Dark, and I'm not sure what the subtitle is.

Speaker 3 Nice.

Speaker 3 And you're a husband, a father, a stepdad, and a grandfather, and a man of faith.

Speaker 5 And a pet parent.

Speaker 5 And a pet parent.

Speaker 3 What kind of pet?

Speaker 5 He's got a Jacoby, a Jack Russell Beagle mix.

Speaker 3 Nice, nice.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 quite the career, man. And then just going through the outline.

Speaker 3 Wow, just some of the stuff you've been a part of. I'm just going to read some of the stuff, man.
But Horse Soldier Infill, ODA 595,

Speaker 3 shot down during Operation Anaconda. You're on the rescue op for Marcus Luttrell's

Speaker 3 Lone Survivor, also known as for military folks, Operation Red Wing, and

Speaker 3 tons more. But, man, just

Speaker 3 we got a lot to talk about, man.

Speaker 3 So before we get too in the weeds, though, everybody gets a gift. Maybe this is the only reason you're here.

Speaker 5 I don't know.

Speaker 3 I wouldn't blame it.

Speaker 3 I wouldn't blame you if it was.

Speaker 5 Ah, the Vigilance Elite Gummies.

Speaker 3 Vigilance Elite Gummies.

Speaker 5 These are great. I did trade you a book a year and a half ago for some of these, and I'm glad.
That's why I came down here, was just for the gummies. You did.

Speaker 3 They're still legal in all 50 states, and they're still made here in the USA.

Speaker 3 And then those are just some stickers for whatever.

Speaker 3 and you know

Speaker 5 like any

Speaker 5 good house guest you know I got to bring a you know housewarming gift I don't have gummies but what I've got is a coin

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 it's a I had that made when the book came out the the front of that's an attitude indicator because I believe everything in life is about attitude and That's a positive attitude by the way there.

Speaker 3 Man, thank you. That'll go great right there.
Cool. With

Speaker 3 all the coins. Thank you, man.
I appreciate that.

Speaker 3 And one last thing. So before we get into the interview, I have a Patreon account.
They're our top supporters. They've been with us since the beginning.

Speaker 3 They're the reason I get to do this and you get to be here. And

Speaker 3 part of the thing that I promise them is they get the opportunity to ask a guest a question. And so

Speaker 3 this is from Stephen Casey.

Speaker 3 They know about you. So

Speaker 3 this won't make sense to a lot of people until later on in the interview, but I thought it was a good question.

Speaker 3 How did you gain the perspective to serve your family while in service? And what helped you do that?

Speaker 5 That's actually a tough question.

Speaker 5 You know, family has always been a big part of my life. And as as we get into the interview, you'll find out that

Speaker 5 it wasn't always the priority. And,

Speaker 5 you know, I had to make some adjustments to that.

Speaker 5 And, you know,

Speaker 5 part of what made us stronger, like, especially my relationship with my sons, was spending time together and prioritizing that for sure. But sometimes the job took priority over even that.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 How did you find a way? What was your cue?

Speaker 5 You know, really it was my wife. So she had her own problems, but she made sure that my sons and I had a good relationship.

Speaker 5 So whether it was, and I remember when my kids were young, there was no internet, you know, to speak of, unless you were on AOL or CompuServe. So it wasn't like just pulling your phone out.

Speaker 5 So she would shove us out the door and say,

Speaker 5 you know, it's like you do to your kids, but she included me in it, was go spend time with your boys.

Speaker 5 And we would just go do whatever we felt like doing, you know, whether it was taking the boat out or hiking or, you know, some kind of sports or something like that. So

Speaker 5 really putting that effort into my sons was the key to everything.

Speaker 3 You and your son still pretty close?

Speaker 5 Very close, yeah.

Speaker 3 That's good to hear, man. Yeah.
That's good to hear.

Speaker 5 Well,

Speaker 3 you ready to dig in?

Speaker 5 I'm ready, let's go.

Speaker 3 All right, man. So

Speaker 3 we're going to do the typical military life story.

Speaker 3 And so we'll we'll go through childhood get into your military career get into some transition stuff and then that'll be it all right but so where did you grow up

Speaker 5 so I was born in New Hampshire coastal New Hampshire so I grew up in Portsmouth which is right by the the Navy base there is a submarine base right in the end of the river and

Speaker 5 I'd like to consider myself sort of a free-range teenager at the time, you know, because once again, there's no internet, no cell phones. So, you know, my parents would open the door.

Speaker 5 I'd go out with my friends. We'd jump on our 10-speeds and ride.
I think we had a range of operations about 20 miles. And, you know, we'd go to the beach.
We'd go to,

Speaker 5 you know, out in the woods, whatever trouble you can get into in coastal New England.

Speaker 5 I was not a bad kid by any means. Never got in trouble.
You know, nothing, you know, nothing bad, nothing bad.

Speaker 5 But,

Speaker 5 yeah, we'd go to, you know, toilet paper houses, that kind of thing, you know, at night. That was the extent of our

Speaker 5 life of crime, if you will.

Speaker 3 Close with your parents?

Speaker 5 Yeah, yeah. My dad passed away in

Speaker 5 06.

Speaker 5 He went to sleep,

Speaker 5 sat down in his recliner, went to sleep, didn't wake up the next day. And

Speaker 5 I kind of think if you're...

Speaker 5 Not going to go out in a ball of flame, you know, like instantly, then and you're asleep in your favorite chair, you know, know, not a bad way to go. Yeah.
Yeah, my mother's still up in New Hampshire.

Speaker 5 She's a local artist, you know, she paints,

Speaker 5 does some wonderful work. My brother's up there,

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 that's kind of the extent of my family, really. My grandparents are all gone.

Speaker 3 Right on, what I mean, what kind of stuff were you into as a kid?

Speaker 5 Well, as

Speaker 5 really high school is the first I could think of something I could talk about, and that's really cross-country and track were my big things, right?

Speaker 5 So I did, you know, cross-country in the fall, winter track, which, you know, in New England, you know, you're doing indoors, right?

Speaker 5 We did that at the University of New Hampshire, and then the spring, you had spring track. And I was generally a miler.

Speaker 5 Wasn't very fast. I ran about 445, 440 for a mile.

Speaker 3 You don't think 445 is a fast mile?

Speaker 5 Well,

Speaker 5 there were guys that were way faster than me, so that's pretty good. And then I tried my hand at the hurdles, but I really didn't have the speed, you know, in the short term.

Speaker 5 So I could do like the 330 intermediates, you know, which is a long, grueling race, you know.

Speaker 5 But at the very end, when I was a senior,

Speaker 5 I trained for the decathlete, decathlon.

Speaker 5 And I learned a pole vault for the discus, you know, stuff like that. And I actually jumped, I don't know, like 12 feet, something like that,

Speaker 5 in my training jumps. And the coach is looking at me like, I think we missed you in some events.

Speaker 5 I was like, I don't know but it was a lot of fun you know life revolved around my friends you know in track and uh

Speaker 3 good childhood it sounds like yeah yeah it was good what got you interested in flying

Speaker 5 so believe it or not the vietnam war was going on right and so i must have been six seven years old or so and it was on the evening news right you didn't have the 24-hour news cycle you had you know the five o'clock news 10 o'clock news or whatever it was depending on your time zone.

Speaker 5 And they always had Hueys zipping across

Speaker 5 the screen. And I was like, I want to do that.

Speaker 5 Remember the TV guide when you were a kid?

Speaker 5 You had the little paper magazine

Speaker 5 with what's on TV?

Speaker 5 And in it was an insert

Speaker 5 for the Army recruiting. So I filled it out and I sent it in.
I want to be a pilot. And I must have been...

Speaker 5 10, maybe 11. And the recruiter sends me a handwritten letter back, a bag full of stickers and stuff like that.

Speaker 5 And he's like, hey, look, I see by your birthday, you're not quite old enough to talk to me, but

Speaker 5 keep that thought alive and call me back when you're 18.

Speaker 5 I fast forward a number of years. I'm in high school.
I'd forgotten about the Army thing.

Speaker 5 My senior year, I'm planning on following on to college in New Hampshire. And I've got a guy, he's going to be a roommate, the whole thing.

Speaker 5 And then I start thinking, you know, this is in the fall of 1980. And I'm thinking,

Speaker 5 if I go to school, I'm just going to party. You know, I'm not going to study.
You know, I wasn't a bad student, but I wasn't a good student. You know what I mean?

Speaker 5 I just never did my homework kind of thing.

Speaker 5 I knew I should, but I didn't. And I knew that college would be the same thing.

Speaker 5 So I'm worried about what I'm going to do. And another friend had just been to the Army recruiter.
And he comes in, oh, is it the Army can do all this stuff?

Speaker 5 You can go to germany you know which was west germany at the time and uh

Speaker 5 i was like you know i always wanted to fly helicopters and i saw a commercial remember those be all you can be commercials oh yeah well there's like two even three of them that helicopters are involved in and one of them is like a w-1 you know the the warrant officer ranks are one through five now and uh he's in a cobra helicopter zipping around you know and they finish up and the

Speaker 5 The senior guy is like, not bad for a rookie, you know, and I'm like, that's what I want to do. So I go into the Army recruiter that my friend had been to.
I'm like, I want to fly helicopters.

Speaker 5 And he's like, whoa, hold on now. I saw it on TV.
You can go from high school to flight school. And he's like, well, pump the brakes turbo.
It doesn't really work like that.

Speaker 5 And he's like, you know, you got something going for you for that to happen, you know? And I was like, well, like what? And he said, tell you what. Why don't you join the Army?

Speaker 5 in aviation like an aircraft mechanic,

Speaker 5 you know, do two, three years, learn the culture, the lingo, learn about the aircraft, you know, all that kind of stuff, and then put it for flight school and it's much easier to get in. Now,

Speaker 5 that statement is twofold. One,

Speaker 5 the recruiter doesn't get credit for officer candidates at all, right? So even if he got me, he gets no credit for it.

Speaker 5 May or may not have been able to do it, who knows? But he did put me into Army Aviation as an aircraft mechanic, worked on Hueys, Cobras, 58s, and

Speaker 5 turns out it was good advice.

Speaker 5 And I did nine years. I reached the rank of staff sergeant, E6, in the Army.

Speaker 5 I was in Germany, West Germany at the time, and I decided I was going to get out of the Army,

Speaker 5 but I really wanted to fly. So I put a little packet.
Yep. So I had two kids, little kids, and my wife.
was a uh linda at the time was a um

Speaker 5 uh a medical assistant and i thought you know,

Speaker 5 they're just going to send me back to Fort Bliss, El Paso, which I didn't want to do. And

Speaker 5 so I said, you know what? Why don't we get out?

Speaker 5 But I'll put in for flight school first. If I get picked up, we stay.
If not, we get out. And so I got picked up, which was

Speaker 5 amazing, you know. So I did almost four years in West Germany.
and off to Fort Rutger, Alabama. But that's how I got interested really was the

Speaker 5 B all U Can B commercials and

Speaker 5 the evening news.

Speaker 3 What took you so long to, I mean, if you joined to fly,

Speaker 3 why did it take you nine years to put your package in?

Speaker 5 Because

Speaker 5 so my first assignment was to South Korea, which is a whole nother story

Speaker 5 we might get into later because that was a military junta ran it then. It wasn't a democracy.
And I went back many years later, and it was a big improvement.

Speaker 5 But so a year on a accompanied there, I go to Fort Bliss, Texas, where I meet my future-to-be wife, Linda,

Speaker 5 do three, three and a half years there, and then I go to Germany on a three-year accompanied assignment. So we get there,

Speaker 5 have our two sons, and now, you know, the timing is, you know, that, and then flight school is almost a year long, so I count that in the nine years, and that's why.

Speaker 3 Right on, right on. Did you know what you wanted to fly when you put the package in?

Speaker 5 I wanted to fly Hueys.

Speaker 3 Hueys. Because

Speaker 5 what I wanted to do was assault.

Speaker 5 Think of, you know,

Speaker 5 back then it was the Air Cav, you know, doing the big, big, you know, multi-ship assaults and stuff. That's what I wanted to do.
And the Blackhawk was just coming out.

Speaker 5 As a matter of fact, in my class, we had like 72 students, I think, to start with, and

Speaker 5 20,

Speaker 5 like 30 of us got Hueys.

Speaker 5 10 of us got Cobras.

Speaker 5 And then most of the others got 50, and there were only six Blackhawk slots. So that's how new the Blackhawks were, you know, showing my age.
But, yeah, so I learned Fly Hueys.

Speaker 3 So what did you... All right, so what did you get to fly?

Speaker 5 Well, I learned in UH1 Hueys.

Speaker 5 By the end of class,

Speaker 5 so you know what's happening to the airlines right now where the pilots are aging out, right? They're hitting age 65 and they can't, by law, fly.

Speaker 5 Well, in the Army, Chinook pilots, a Chinook transition is considered a reward, right? So remember the Vietnam War had been going on. Guys were flying Hueys, doing the assault work.

Speaker 5 If you survived it and got back, and then they wanted to send you back, the reward was you could transition to a Chinook, right? So now you're not necessarily doing assault work.

Speaker 5 You're still flying around Vietnam, you know, carrying artillery and supplies and all that kind of stuff, but you're not really doing assault work. So it's considered, and it's an advanced aircraft.

Speaker 5 So it's considered a reward.

Speaker 5 So if you think of like that Vietnam timeframe, these guys on their second tour, so about the time I'm in flight school, these guys are all reaching 60, 65 years old, and they're all retiring in droves, right?

Speaker 5 So it's very senior

Speaker 5 heavy, right?

Speaker 5 And the Army realized they had to generate from the bottom up. So they're going to take W-1s, right? And once again, you go W-01, C-W-2, CW-3, CW-4, and now CW-5, which is a relatively new rank.

Speaker 5 But at the time, it was CW-4 was the

Speaker 5 senior guys. So how are you going to replace those guys?

Speaker 5 The Army's plan was to take W-1s out of flight school and inject them in while you still had senior people to mentor them. But who do you take, right?

Speaker 5 I mean, it's supposed to be an advanced aircraft, supposed to be a reward. So you want the cream of the crop, if you will.

Speaker 5 And the only way to do that, the metric that they have is grade point average, right?

Speaker 5 So, you know, I have high school grade point average. No, no, flight school.
Okay. Flight school grade point average.

Speaker 5 So you get graded on your academics, your, you know, your participation, your flying.

Speaker 5 Each flight gets a grade slip, you know, with a numerical grade, and they end up with this grade point average.

Speaker 5 There was a rumor, and it was sort of true, it depended on the class, was that if you were in the top five of the class, right, there's 72 of us, but if you're in the top five, when it got to aircraft assignments, you could pick what you wanted, right?

Speaker 5 So if you wanted to pick what you wanted, you wanted to be in the top five guys.

Speaker 5 So there were a bunch of us that were, you know, there were probably 10 of us that were all within, you know, hundredths of a point, you know, 98.2, 98.3, you know, that kind of thing.

Speaker 5 And we're competing, right? And every time you got your, your exams back, you'd be like, oh man, that guy, he got like 0.1 above me. And he just moved up.
And so it turned out that

Speaker 5 I was number one in the class. And a good story here about never quitting is that one of the guys I was competing with, if you will,

Speaker 5 when the assignments came out, they did not give us choice.

Speaker 5 And, you know, I got shoved, we all got shoved off in Hueys,

Speaker 5 all those top guys. And he got mad and he, I want to say he quit, but he stopped trying, right? So he studied enough.

Speaker 5 He did what he had to do, but he quit, he dropped from being in 98 point something to, you know, 88 point something, right? So instead of going from an A, he went to a B kind of thing.

Speaker 5 And then toward the end, what I just talked about, the Chinook thing, the Army said, okay, we're going to do two slots from your class, get Chinooks. So two, two pilots would get Chinooks.

Speaker 5 And we're going to take the number one and two guy.

Speaker 5 And I happened to be number one and my stick buddy was number two. And this guy probably would have been one or two had he kept going, but he gave up.

Speaker 5 And now he's like throwing stuff around the, you know, the classroom. He's like, damn it, I shouldn't have quit.
You know, and it's like,

Speaker 5 good point, buddy. And I remember it to this day.
I use that lesson on my kids and tell them, it's like, don't get mad, you didn't get the job you wanted.

Speaker 5 Don't get mad that you didn't get this or that. Things always work out.
They just do. Don't give up.

Speaker 3 So you wanted a Chinook.

Speaker 5 I didn't.

Speaker 5 I was actually mad that I got it. Really? Yeah, because remember I said I wanted to be

Speaker 5 salt work, right? And I'm like, a Chinook? That's bull.

Speaker 5 It's going to be like, you know, flying from airport to airport. That's going to suck.
And

Speaker 5 the instructors, you know, all retired warrant officers, all older guys, they're like, back then, slapped me in the back of the head, right? And they're like, you idiot. Shut your mouth.

Speaker 5 and take the slot, right? And I'm like, but I want to fly Hueys.

Speaker 3 And they're like, Hueys are going going away trust me take the chinook right you maintain your gear so it lasts and your skin's no different it's the first thing exposed to the elements every single day caldera lab is built to help repair and protect your skin so you can look and feel your best every day caldera lab creates high performance skincare for men by combining cutting edge science with powerful natural ingredients it absorbs quickly with no greasy mess you guys know i'm a stickler for clean ingredients, and Caldera Lab really delivers on that.

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Speaker 5 Check them out for yourself at Roka.com and use code srs for 20 off site-wide at checkout that's roka.com so i did you know grudgingly and as soon as i flew that thing i was like this is amazing it's one of the fastest helicopters on the planet let alone the u.s army it's uh it's very powerful and uh

Speaker 5 It's no harder to fly than a Huey. But it, you know, there's a whole now conversation on that.
But that's how I ended up, you know, flying shinox.

Speaker 5 Learned on Hueys, transitioned into CH-47 Deltas, just before

Speaker 5 Desert Shield.

Speaker 5 And then I flew in there, and then I ended up instructing in those. And then we get into the 160th, you know, later.
Wow, wow. Let's go to,

Speaker 3 I mean, so what was it like for you walking into flight school? So you start out.

Speaker 5 So it's different now.

Speaker 5 But at the time, what you did is you first went to walk school, Warren Officer Candidate School. And that was like eight weeks of,

Speaker 5 we start out with, you know, you did hell week. We had like hell day, you know, and it was tough.

Speaker 5 And I remember the little head game they played was they, you know, they came in, you're beat to hell, and they'd say, okay,

Speaker 5 somebody yells in the room, you know, 20%,

Speaker 5 got it. And then they're like, we just got off the phone with the Secretary of the Army.
You know, we have to lose 20% of you because of budget cuts.

Speaker 5 So we're just going to do hell day every day until 20% of you quit, right?

Speaker 5 And I'm like, well, I'm not quitting. You know, you're going to have to throw me out of here.
And there were guys, it was like one guy got up and walked out. So it worked.

Speaker 5 You know, I was like, all right, he didn't want to be here.

Speaker 3 What does Hell Day consist of?

Speaker 5 You know, it's like, you know,

Speaker 5 crawling through the mud pits and push-ups and mountain climbers and just burning you out physically. Just a beatdown.
Yeah, it's a big, it's a beatdown. And it...

Speaker 5 It is not pleasant, to say the least, especially for Army aviators

Speaker 5 or guys that want to be and these guys you know the tack officers are walking around just like the guys at buds you know uh you know except back then you're smoking a cigarette

Speaker 5 come on let's go upstairs we'll get some donuts and some coffee it's warm you know it's comfortable you get a shower and we'll just put you on your way look you're you're an e7 you know there were guys at e7s there's like you're an e7 you had a good life why do you want to do this you know and they yeah all right screw it you know i quit you know and guys would just do that there were i don't know four or five guys uh quit during it and and that one guy in the meeting and uh you know they they do that to you not to that extent but for the next eight weeks because you're not flying so you're doing uh what we call cubing right so you have a cubicle right you have your your bunk you know a desk a locker and every morning when you get up you have I don't know, 10 minutes to have your bunk with a white collar on it,

Speaker 5 your coat hangers to be exact.

Speaker 5 You know the big deal, like any NCO school you've been to.

Speaker 5 And, uh, you know, you get outside, obviously, you're not fast enough, you're not straight enough, whatever.

Speaker 5 They'd come into the barracks and throw the stuff out of your locker onto the floor so that when you came back at the end of the day, you know, you got like an hour to, that was personal time.

Speaker 5 Now you're repairing the damage they did as opposed to just adjusting things. And it's a, you know, it's a head game.
It's a little bit of hazing, really. But, you know, it kind of

Speaker 5 does go to show who Army Warren officers are in my age group, you know, why we're such assholes.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 anyway,

Speaker 5 so you do that, and then when you're done, you move on to, so that's A Company, and you move on to B company, and that's primary flight, right, which is where you learn to fly.

Speaker 5 So, you know, depending on what they call the bubble, you know, where the schedule is for classes, you know, based on aircraft maintenance, weather, that kind of stuff. So, you know,

Speaker 5 you might, you might roll right through. You might go from A A company to B company and roll right into C company, you know, seven months later.

Speaker 5 Or you could have, you know, two weeks of rain that's, you know, you can't fly in or something, and it just sets you back.

Speaker 5 Well, what that does is that ripple effect is it sets back all the other classes.

Speaker 5 So in the meantime, while you're waiting to get to flight, you're, you know, you're polishing brass and you're doing, you know, just things to keep you busy, painting rocks, you know, that kind of stuff.

Speaker 5 Or you might be working at one of the facilities on post, you know, as a, like a, think of it like a detailer, you know, giving you like a temporary assignment.

Speaker 5 Like I actually worked at the museum for a couple of weeks, which was pretty good because I was an aircraft mechanic. I helped them with some

Speaker 5 of the displays, you know, getting the, you know, as they were setting them up. But

Speaker 5 that's how you get into the flying. And then when you're in.

Speaker 3 Just real quick, how long does it take, let's say there's no weather delays or anything, how long does it take from day one of flight school before you're in the air

Speaker 3 for a helicopter?

Speaker 5 I'm going to say six weeks, maybe seven.

Speaker 3 Six weeks. Yeah.
That's quick. Yeah.

Speaker 5 That's if everything rolls right along. And you start out in primary learning to fly right now.

Speaker 5 Just before I got there, they switched over, the Army switched over from the TH-55, which was a little two-seater, a little bug-looking thing that it was just you and your instructor.

Speaker 5 And when you picked up to a hover, when you pull power, the nose wants to go to the right, and you have to give it left pedal to keep it heading.

Speaker 5 And in a modern helicopter the engines keep pace with the the rotors and back then in this thing you had to like control the throttle at the same time so it was an additional thing i got lucky in that it went away and they had just transitioned into hueys as the primary trainer which i warned fly anyway so i get into this thing and uh you know they take you out to the stage field there's there's Hueys all over the place, you know, just flying around, hovering, doing their thing.

Speaker 5 And the instructor's like, all right, you know, here's what you do, right?

Speaker 5 right you have the controls i have the controls and then you just you know you go off in whatever direction i mean you can't hover right and that's the very first

Speaker 5 it's insane because you know when you go to bed at night so you have a stick buddy right so when a partner right so when he when he's flying you're in the back and when you're flying he's in the back right so not only you there for your flight period but you're in the back going up and down and left and right and just your your inner ear is getting all you know discombobulated right so at night when you went to bed you were you felt yourself it's like being on a ship right for a while and you go lay in a regular bed and you feel like you're moving but you're not and that's what it's like and then you know the first person in the class learns to hover you know he comes back and he's like yeah i found the hover button you know which means you can just you know maintain a stationary you know three-foot hover you know you're not drifting and then you know as individuals in the class learn right takes about five hours really to learn to hover, right?

Speaker 5 So in each flight period is about an hour and a half. So it takes a couple of flights.
And, you know, when you're like the last guy, you're feeling like, what am I incompetent? I can't do this.

Speaker 5 Maybe I'm not

Speaker 5 a pilot, right? And then you just, one day you find yourself hovering. You know, they're like, hey, you have the controls.
I have the controls. Hey, you're hovering.
Wow, I'm hovering.

Speaker 5 And once you learn, it's like riding a bike. You don't.
you don't forget.

Speaker 5 And so that transitions into traffic pattern flight so you're going up and around the pattern you're coming in you're landing they'll say you know the so literally the first thing you do is just try to learn how to hover for like i don't know three four days five days maybe if you're if you're late how many helicopters are up at once trying to hover 20.

Speaker 5 oh my it's insane you could go there that has to look hilarious every stage field has a set of bleachers right and people

Speaker 5 uh locals would just pull up there was no fences you just just pull up get on the bleacher you know your hot cocoa whatever depending time of year and iced tea and just watch the students you know going nuts and then what happens though with the traffic pattern and stuff is you start including emergency procedures now these are like in the huey you know hydraulics out so the aircraft's very difficult to fly and you have to kind of run it on to land

Speaker 5 You have tail rotor malfunctions where you have to control the yaw of the aircraft as you're coming in.

Speaker 5 As you change power, you have to adjust the throttle throttle to keep the nose straight as you touch down.

Speaker 5 Auto-rotations, right? So it's a single-engine aircraft, the Huey. So the instructor will roll the throttle off on you.
You're just flying along,

Speaker 5 you know, and he rolls the throttle off to idle and you no longer have lift, right? So now you lower the collective, takes all the pitch out of the blades, and you descend like a rock, right?

Speaker 5 But the rotors are still spinning, right? And you have to keep the rotor RPM between 97 and 101%.

Speaker 5 In order to do that,

Speaker 5 you play with the collective, which changes the pitch in the blades. So the more pitch you put in, the more drag you get, right?

Speaker 5 But you want to keep it at 100% because when you get to the bottom, last like 75 feet, you have flare.

Speaker 5 Now you pull in the power, you put the pitch in the blades, and you're using one chance to cushion that baby on. And we call them crash bangs, right? You're doing that all day long.
Right.

Speaker 5 And then eventually they deem you safe enough to solo, right? So back in

Speaker 5 the TH55, you really did solo. It was just you.
Now you're going out with your stick buddy, and he ain't saving you, right? So you're still solo, but you have somebody next to you in case you die.

Speaker 5 He'll go with you.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 yeah, so you solo, you do a couple of traffic patterns. I think it was five traffic patterns by yourself.
And the instructor gets back in and you're like, all right, you soloed.

Speaker 5 The last guy to solo of the class is like, you know, it's,

Speaker 5 there was a name for it, I can't remember, but you, you had to ride, we had this ceremony.

Speaker 5 It was like pictures of beer and everybody lined the, in front of the building, the barracks, you know, and it looked like a stage field.

Speaker 5 The markings were like, you know, painted on just as if it were stage field. And that guy would ride a thing called the solo cycle.

Speaker 5 So it was a bicycle that somebody had engineered, you know, it had rotor blades.

Speaker 5 And when you drove it, you know, when you pedaled, the blades spun, right? And you had to

Speaker 5 ride this bicycle. I don't have have a picture of that.
Oh, man, that's it. No, I wish I did.

Speaker 5 And then you get your solo wings, which is like these cloth wings that get sewn on your hat. And each class has a color.

Speaker 5 And back then, they don't do it anymore, but each class had a baseball cap, and we were royal blue.

Speaker 5 And you had that sewn on so you could see who, you know, was a real pilot now, sort of, you know, within the context of flight school.

Speaker 3 Nice. And so,

Speaker 5 yeah, so then you move on from that.

Speaker 5 You move up.

Speaker 5 You take your final check ride in primary and you move on to Advanced Skills, which is Charlie Company. And there, this was a lot of fun, actually.
Now you're doing terrain flight navigation.

Speaker 5 You know, you got a handheld map, right? And this is where you, I call it the bus driver move, right, where you're trying to make the map.

Speaker 5 meet the terrain because you get lost and it's like oh there's a stream over there

Speaker 5 uh no wait that's the stream and you move you know so it's like a guy driving a big bus you know and uh so you learn to do that and fly and that's a lot of fun actually

Speaker 5 and uh you finish that up with a uh

Speaker 5 great big exercise where like the cobras come in and the hueys and it's a big they call it an av tech i don't remember what that stood for but it was a big big event it was really cool and then you moved into nights what's the i mean what's the

Speaker 3 what's the field exercise what's the

Speaker 5 it was like uh

Speaker 5 we we all flew out to an assembly area Right. And we went in and got a briefing from, you know, the Cadre planned the mission.
So it was, you know,

Speaker 5 20 Hueys flying in one big ass formation, like something out of Apocalypse Now, you know, and the Cobras would roll in and do the gun runs and the OH 58s would do, you know, call in the spot reports and all that stuff.

Speaker 5 And we would all do this.

Speaker 5 And we're a bunch of, we're not even W-1s yet. We're still walks.
We're not officially candidates.

Speaker 5 You know, the instructors are obviously having fun because they're showing off, you know, their students can do this and that. And it was a lot of fun.
You know, I don't think they do that anymore.

Speaker 5 It's probably very risky when you think about what they were doing you know all these aircraft in one little area synchronized I mean this is this is advanced stuff yeah and they allowed us to do that how far in to training is that that's several months in that's that's got to be like five six months in okay and and then because when you finish that now you move to night and when you go to night you do all the same stuff.

Speaker 5 You do stage field, right? Traffic patterns, you do auto-rotations, emergency procedures, all that stuff with goggles. And when I was in there, we had

Speaker 5 the Army had just transitioned from what we call full-face fives, right? So Anvas Fives or PVS 5s, whatever they were. And they used to be like a...

Speaker 3 Are you talking about the mono?

Speaker 5 No, no, these are, they're binoculars, but they are like

Speaker 5 a rectangle.

Speaker 3 Oh, these are like the thing that the eyeglass doctor used to.

Speaker 5 You put them on your face, right? Like a diving mask. Think of a diving mask where it's just got toilet paper tubes sticking out of it, right? And everything else is black.

Speaker 5 That's what they started with. And I got there, somebody in the Army had figured out that if you took

Speaker 5 a saw, you know, and you cut one half of the MVG away, the plastic housing, turned it upside down, you could stick the lip of it without the foam up into your helmet

Speaker 5 where the visor is. And then with surgical tubing, you wrap the surgical tubing around in Velcro and you suck this thing to your head, right?

Speaker 5 And you had to have a weight bag because it's way out here like this.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 you had to, when you did auto-rotation,

Speaker 5 when you drop the power, the engines split off. Like the rotor and the engine split, the needles.
But if it doesn't, you're going to fall out of the sky.

Speaker 5 So you have to make sure it happens because sometimes it doesn't, right? And so. Wait, what do you mean? So

Speaker 5 there's two big needles. right there's a big needles needles like gauges okay right and and uh so one of them is the rotor and one of them is the engine okay so

Speaker 5 whenever you pull or reduce power they should work together right so that means the engine is driving the rotors which is good

Speaker 5 but if for some reason there's a clutch it's called a sprag clutch it's a one-way clutch and if the engine rolls off it's supposed to freewheel allowing the rotors to spin

Speaker 5 If so you should have a split in the needle so if you drop the power roll the throttles off it should split right but if you don't get a split that means you've got a clutch failure and you've got to recover because you're not going to survive if you don't do something about it.

Speaker 5 So you've got to

Speaker 5 focus one tube inside of the instruments while the other one's outside

Speaker 5 and determine that, okay, that's good. Then you can focus it back out and then finish the maneuver.
It was insane, right? And the army at the time was going, we own the night.

Speaker 5 We learned, we kind of were renting it. We don't really own it yet.
But

Speaker 5 there there was no MVG lighting in the cockpit like it was red lighting and so you had to turn off all the lights so what we did is we had these little tiny chem lights right they look like maybe an inch inch and a half long you'd break those and you tape them into place over key instruments

Speaker 5 and you had what was called blind cockpit drill so every switch in the cockpit you had to be able to find without looking at it because you've got these things on your face.

Speaker 5 And so you do that, and then you go do terrain flight that way and terrain flight navigation. And so you're doing this whole progression.
And what's interesting is the students from my time frame

Speaker 5 were kind of like the first ones to do this, not literally the first, but you know, that first year. And so when you get to your unit, all the old guys don't want to do it.

Speaker 5 Like they're qualified to do it, but they're not proficient at it and they don't want to do it.

Speaker 5 And that's a whole story I'll get into with Desert Shield, Desert Storm. But so that's how flight school kind of goes.

Speaker 5 And when you finish up nights, and we used to fly unaided nights as well, they call it night hawk.

Speaker 5 So we'd

Speaker 5 you'd fly at you know, whatever a safe altitude was, 300 feet, something like that. You knew where the, how tall the tallest obstacle was, and you flew at least 200 feet higher than that.

Speaker 5 And you'd fly around, and this is what the guys in Vietnam used to do. You know, you'd fly in the dark without being able to see.
You'd get to your

Speaker 5 fix or...

Speaker 5 you know, maybe, you know, a Sandy would put a rocket down for you, and you know, ah, that's the LZ, right? And you go in there with a white searchlight on. And it can be tough.

Speaker 5 And we did stuff without the searchlight, and they'd have

Speaker 5 chem lights, you know, in

Speaker 5 the LZ or maybe strobe lights or something like that.

Speaker 5 And as you came in on your approach, if you got any kind of blinking, that meant there was foliage between you and the object, and you would hold off on the descent until you could see it.

Speaker 5 again and you go in. And it's funny because that's kind of a lost art now with everybody being being so used to goggles interesting yeah interesting and that finishes up

Speaker 3 what what did you find to be the most challenging portion of flight school

Speaker 5 night vision hovering uh because you had to maintain a three-foot hover and you did that you didn't have a radar altimeter right that took a digital readout in the cockpit you looked out

Speaker 5 through the chin bubble to the side door and if you saw individual blades of grass

Speaker 5 Like it would be sort of fuzzy which meant you were higher than three feet and you wanted to get down just enough so the individual blades of grass stood out and that's like three feet but how the hold on how the hell do you see individual blades of grass when the rotors are oh, they're blowing all over the place, you know, but

Speaker 5 you can

Speaker 5 but you know with that being said this is why flying in the desert is so tough because there's no texture. Well, I take that back.

Speaker 5 The NTC, National Training Center out of Fort Irwin, California, is a different kind of desert. It's not like Saudi Arabia.

Speaker 5 Saudi Arabia and Iraq are very, you know, Saudi's got those smooth, beautiful dunes like you see at Lawrence of Arabia.

Speaker 5 In Iraq, it's kind of, you know, flattish with some rocks occasionally, but it's not scrubby like the NTC, right? So the Army kind of

Speaker 5 gave itself a false sense of security and how well we could fly in the desert, right? Because, oh, it's not that hard, right?

Speaker 5 And then you get over to the Saudi desert, it's like flying in snow, you know, when you come into a hover because you look out, you can't see individual grains of sand, you know, so it's

Speaker 5 tough, yeah. But I found the hardest part of that was the, they call it the OGE 360 hover.
So you get an out-of-ground effect, so it's about 80 feet,

Speaker 5 I guess about 60 feet. So you're higher than the trees.
It's dark, there's no moon, and you have to do a 360-degree turn, a pedal turn, right?

Speaker 5 So the aircraft will pivot, and you got to start on one heading, end on that heading, and be at the exact same altitude when you finish. And you got to be over the same spot of ground, right?

Speaker 5 And the instructor, who's very experienced at this, can tell, you know, you can't. You're like, I think I did the goodness.
Ah, dude, you drifted 20 feet. So that was tough.

Speaker 5 I had a hard time with that.

Speaker 3 I'll bet. I'll bet.
Let's go into,

Speaker 3 I mean, graduation. So you graduated the number one.

Speaker 3 Yep.

Speaker 5 Yep. So I've got a, distinguished honor grad.

Speaker 5 But the Army,

Speaker 5 unlike the Air Force,

Speaker 5 there's a process for a warrant officer. It's like a three-day process.
Like the first thing

Speaker 5 they want to emphasize is that you are a soldier. It's not that you're a pilot, not that you're an officer, you're a soldier, right?

Speaker 5 And then I can't remember what ceremony they did for that, but it was specific to being a soldier. And then like the next day, you got pinned, your bars, right?

Speaker 5 And then the next day, they did a wing ceremony and you got your wings, right? So it was, they wanted to emphasize you were a soldier, an officer, and a pilot, you know?

Speaker 5 The rest of us are like, no, we're pilots. But that's what the Army wanted us

Speaker 5 to be, you know?

Speaker 3 Yeah. How did it feel for you? I mean, you wanted to fly since, what, I think you said six years old.
Yeah, you put your package in to enlist as a pilot at age 10.

Speaker 3 And now you're graduating honor grad.

Speaker 5 It was awesome. You know, I mean, I loved it.
And then I left that. So two weeks later, I was in the Chinook transition, and I learned how to fly Chinook.
That was six to eight weeks.

Speaker 3 I mean, how hard is it to learn

Speaker 3 to go from a Huey to a Chinook Herbert?

Speaker 5 It wasn't that hard.

Speaker 5 Like flying, so, you know, we joke about the Chinook being the double-headed dumpster, right?

Speaker 5 It's like a dumpster with two palm trees having a fight or, you know, a greyhound bus, you know, kind of thing.

Speaker 5 You know, actually the SEALs used to call us the black school bus of of death you know when we're going to the acts but um

Speaker 5 even though the aerodynamics are different i'm not going to go into it here because it's fairly complex i don't think i could explain it at this age but the control movements that the pilot does are the same what happens over your head is pure friggin' magic you know it just it just does what it does right and so

Speaker 5 All you're really doing in that six to eight weeks is learning the emergency procedures for the aircraft. Okay.
So, you know, you practice, you know, generator failures, engine failures, right?

Speaker 5 And this has got a twin engine, right? So it's two engines, and you have to practice with losing an engine.

Speaker 5 And then there's other malfunctions, you know, high side, low side, you know, things like that that you just have to learn. You get proficient at it and you start out with rote memory, right?

Speaker 5 So you you memorize the steps in a checklist. And when something happens, you you literally go down the steps.
And as you get through the course, you start responding to the indications versus,

Speaker 5 you know, oh, the rotor's low. I know I have to lower the thrust or the collective, you know, the power.
And

Speaker 5 you just, you just learn all that. And then you do nights there as well with the Chinooks, doing external loads.
You have to learn how to do sling loads. And it was fun.

Speaker 3 What's the first thing you noticed maneuverability-wise that was different from the Huey to the 47?

Speaker 5 I can tell you that the 47 is,

Speaker 5 it surprised me. And remember I said I didn't want Chinooks, and then when I flew it the first time or two, it was like, hey, this is awesome.
Because it's just as maneuverable.

Speaker 5 It has all the same aerodynamic limitations

Speaker 5 and it's faster and stronger. We routinely outraced Cobras and Apaches coming back at the end of the day.

Speaker 5 They'd be like, you know, we'd converge on the corridor that brought us to the home stage field. And

Speaker 5 we just

Speaker 5 click the power a little bit with your thumb and the cycle could could move forward, and the aircraft would just accelerate, you know, and just leave them in the dust.

Speaker 5 You know, and the Apaches couldn't keep up, the Cobras couldn't keep up, and they always thought they were fast, you know. So it was fun.
You know, my instructor was like, Speed up.

Speaker 5 I'm like, well, they're right, they're kind of in front of us. Nah, speed up.
You know, he liked showing.

Speaker 5 Very cool.

Speaker 5 But.

Speaker 3 So, were you one of the first

Speaker 3 47 pilots in the Army?

Speaker 5 No. One of the first W-1s

Speaker 5 to fly Chinooks. So.

Speaker 3 How long had they been around?

Speaker 5 W-1s? Chinooks. Oh, Chinooks.

Speaker 5 They, I want to say 1958

Speaker 5 for the A model. And that's what

Speaker 5 the 101st airborne was originally the

Speaker 5 11th air assault test, right? And what they had to do is prove the air assault concept, air mobility, was a feasible concept. And they needed the Chinook to make that happen.

Speaker 5 So in order to move, you know

Speaker 5 all these troops around Vietnam, not only do you need the Hueys, but you need gunship support, which was Hueys that were armed.

Speaker 5 And then you had to move the artillery and supplies and things like that. So you needed the Chinook.
You need the actual capability of the Chinook, which is funny because the A model,

Speaker 5 a Blackhawk today can lift more than an A model Chinook.

Speaker 5 So you could have

Speaker 5 done the 101st with Blackhawks had they existed 30 years earlier. But

Speaker 5 yeah, so

Speaker 5 there was a poster that Boeing put out when the Delta model came out, right? So there's an A, B, C, D,

Speaker 5 there's an F and a G.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 it said the silhouette, only the silhouette remains the same, right?

Speaker 5 So you get that the double-headed dumpster on the outside, but the engines are beefed up, the transmissions, the drivetrain, the avionics, you know, so all of the computers and the electronics, you know, just improved with each version, you know.

Speaker 5 So like a D model, which is is what I flew in Desert Storm and Desert Shield,

Speaker 5 was about 18, five a copy, 18 million a copy. And when I flew the G model, which was the last version I flew, those were 62 million a piece.

Speaker 5 That's more than a fighter jet, you know, like on an F-16. Wow.
And it's because of the advanced

Speaker 3 capabilities is actually I can say. Do you think that being a flight mechanic helped you with flight school? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 5 Especially because I worked on Hueys.

Speaker 5 So when my, the reason I had such a high grade point average, I think, is because when my peers had to study aircraft systems, I already knew them. I just had to touch over what

Speaker 5 kind of data they probably wanted for the answers for the test. And I could study things like Aeromed, you know, hypoxia, you know, spatial disorientation, that kind of stuff, aviation regulations.

Speaker 5 So I got to study all this stuff. The other guys had to split that time, you know, so it helped a lot.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 What did you say?

Speaker 3 Spatial what?

Speaker 5 Spatial disorientation. What is that?

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 there are illusions, right? And now you're testing my ArrowMed, right?

Speaker 5 Vestibular illusions, which I believe are up in your ear, right? So you can feel like

Speaker 5 a lot of times what happens is if an airplane gets in a spin, right? They call it a graveyard spiral.

Speaker 5 You get in a spin, and when you go to pull out of the spin, you turn into it, you feel like you've spun in the other direction because inside your ears are these little hairs, right, in your semicircular canals.

Speaker 5 That's where your balance comes from. And so sometimes when you have an ear infection, that's why you might lose your balance a little bit.

Speaker 5 And there's those. And then there's visual illusions.

Speaker 5 Things like you ever been on a stoplight in your car? and you think you're rolling, but it's the guy beside you backing up or going forward?

Speaker 5 That's one of the illusions right reverse perspective illusion and then um you know over the water is where it's really dangerous if you don't have a horizon you know you get uh i can't remember all the new is like 20 different illusions you can get but you have to learn them and how to get out of them like to recognize that you've got it or that somebody else has it and then you know correct for it so man so

Speaker 3 that would scare the shit out of me so so they they

Speaker 3 put you in these situations where you actually feel the illusion? Yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah, they have like a chair.

Speaker 5 I don't know how to describe it. You sit in this chair, you strap in, and it's like a gyroscope.
And they kind of,

Speaker 5 first they get it spinning, and you're sitting there, and then they engage it, and the chair goes around, and then you spin upside down, and all this other stuff.

Speaker 5 And then they stop you, and you have a set of controls, and you're supposed to move the controls to make some indication, like

Speaker 5 maybe a marble or something like that is in this flat,

Speaker 5 a flat panel is like little cables. I mean, this is very primitive, but it worked.
And you'd have to center

Speaker 5 the panel so that the ball, the marble would be in the middle using aircraft controls.

Speaker 5 And when you first did it, it's just like when you're a kid and you're spinning around and around and around and you stop and you're like, whoa, right? Yeah. It's just like that.

Speaker 5 And so you have to learn.

Speaker 5 And there were many times in my career, we might even end up touching on some of those where either me or somebody else got into one of those illusions and it almost almost killed us, you know, and it did, you know,

Speaker 5 it did kill some friends.

Speaker 5 Oh, man. And it was a conventional unit, a Chinook that was in Afghanistan, had to be in

Speaker 5 2002, 2003, and they were flying daylight, ran into a sandstorm, couldn't see out the window, so they climbed up to what they considered a safe altitude, and they got...

Speaker 5 spatial disorientation and they literally rolled that aircraft upside down, pulled the blades off, essentially, and fell to their deaths, you know, headfirst.

Speaker 3 Holy shit.

Speaker 5 So it's very dangerous, and it's one of those things that everybody pays very close attention to.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I can imagine. Do they simulate it in the bird?

Speaker 5 They try to. It's hard.
They do.

Speaker 5 Or in the simulator. You know, they'll put you in situations where,

Speaker 5 you know, the aircraft gets into an unusual attitude. So it's called unusual attitude recovery.
So they'll put the aircraft in some weird situation.

Speaker 5 Like it might be in the aircraft, what they'll do is they'll say, close your eyes, put your arms up like this, put your head down, right?

Speaker 5 And then the pilot will say what he's not doing. He'll say, I'm turning to the right, and then he'll turn left.

Speaker 5 And then he'll say, I'm rolling out. He'll roll a little bit, but not enough.
And by the time you're done, open your eyes.

Speaker 5 You open your eyes, take the controls, and what you see out the window is not what you had in your mind. Sometimes it makes people puke.
You know, it's like,

Speaker 5 so yeah, you have to learn to do that because the basics will kill you.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 5 You know,

Speaker 5 we talk about the ground.

Speaker 3 Let's talk about, I mean, since we're on the subject, let's talk about one of the instances where you've felt the illusion in the real world.

Speaker 5 So I'm in Afghanistan. Been there a couple years.
This is probably 05.

Speaker 5 And we're at a place called Salerna, right? It's eastern Afghanistan.

Speaker 5 And we're coming back from a mission. And it's late.
We're exhausted.

Speaker 5 we'd been putting the rangers up in the kg pass and the weather rolled in and it was raining really hard as we're crossing back over the mountains to get back to bagram you know the rain is just coming down and you can't see out the window now we've got a terrain following radar but the radar has limitations when it comes to rain precipitation right if it's too dense it sees it as an obstacle and tries to climb you over it Well, a rainstorm might be 60,000 feet and you're not doing that.

Speaker 5 And a Chinook will go to maybe 20, 25 if we're stripped down, but you're not getting to 60.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 we're flying through the mountain. We've got terrain on both sides.
Rain comes down. Like it's not raining when we enter the mountains.
And then just down it comes, right?

Speaker 5 And my buddy's flying, Rich, and

Speaker 5 he says, Al,

Speaker 5 I'm getting vertigo. And I'm like, well, you know.

Speaker 5 Suck it up, dude.

Speaker 5 We still got another, you know, 10 minutes here in the mountains, you know, you got to hang on, right? And he's like,

Speaker 5 we can barely see the terrain

Speaker 5 through the bottom plexiglass. And I'm like, you got to just, and we're following, we've got what we call the HSD, right? It's a horizontal situation display.

Speaker 5 So it's like a compass rose with a, with a course line, like you might see in

Speaker 5 Waves, really, but you got the compass on there. And he's like, I can't.
I can't do it, you know, and the aircraft starts to veer toward the, toward the, the, the rock wall, right?

Speaker 5 So I take the controls, right? And I'm like, I have the controls. He's like, all right, thanks.
And we're flying and the rain is just terrible. And now I'm getting the same sensation, right?

Speaker 5 What's happening is the aircraft, we didn't know this, the aircraft is inducing,

Speaker 5 there was something, there was a component that was bad. And some of the, this is where these automated systems sometimes can bite you.

Speaker 5 And the aircraft's trying to put us, it says we're level, but it doesn't feel like we're level and we weren't, you know, and I could see that. So I had differing instrumentation, right?

Speaker 5 So we have an old standby, right? Something from the 1950s in the center of console, right? And it's, it's saying I'm in a turn. And the other thing says I'm level.

Speaker 5 So now I got to figure out which one to follow.

Speaker 3 And then... How do you figure that out?

Speaker 5 You got to look at all the other secondary instruments. So there's a wet compass, you know, and is it moving?

Speaker 5 You know, because if you're in a turn, it's moving, you know, and you can also look at the... the compass rows itself if it's moving and the attitude indicator is different.

Speaker 5 So you got to look at what we call your secondary instruments, right so the primaries the attitude indicator like that coin I gave you

Speaker 5 that's a primary instrument and all the secondaries just kind of confirm or deny what you're seeing right and you can fly with just secondary instruments it's it's not fun but you can do it so here we are maybe I'm on the controls maybe a minute and I'm getting ready to throw up it's like I'm losing my balance.

Speaker 5 Nothing's making right. We are climbing now because we can't see out the window.
So we get all power in.

Speaker 5 We're climbing at about 3,000 foot a minute, which is pretty fast for a helicopter that's heavy. And

Speaker 5 we did have the benefit of height above terrain.

Speaker 5 So remember I said that you get the compass rows, you got the course line, and then if there's terrain around you that's at your altitude or above, the screen is red, right?

Speaker 5 You can see where it is, right? And it was all red. in the screen and we're climbing at 3,000 foot a minute because we're going up the mountain.
And I'm like, dude, I can't do it.

Speaker 5 You've got to take the controls. And Rich takes the controls.
He's like, I got it. I got the controls.
And now I'm just trying to, you know, it's like,

Speaker 5 trying to get my, my head straight. And, uh, because I know he's not going to last.
And same thing about it. 45 seconds later, he's like, gal, I can't do it.
Like, come on, you got to do it.

Speaker 5 I can't do it. And he's like, back and forth.
So I took the controls now. Now that red terrain presence I told you about is starting to part from the course line, right?

Speaker 5 So now there's a little bit of black, you know, so that means what's right along the course line is below me. Could be 100 feet, which isn't much, but the terrain is still out my left and right door.

Speaker 5 If we don't stay right on the course, we are going to crash. And, you know, we say that cumulo granite, you know, has a 100% kill ratio.
So you got to do it. And then so

Speaker 5 we passed the controls back and forth for, I don't know, five minutes, and we popped out of the clouds. Like the rain stopped.
It was solid clouds over the valley in Gardez.

Speaker 5 And we pop out of the clouds, and now we can see right so we can see the mountains off in the distance and now your brain can re-register what you're doing you can ignore all of the instrumentation and so

Speaker 5 we're like oh my god we we almost died right

Speaker 5 and that kind of thing has happened you know a couple of times but that's the most the easiest one to explain man and then we get back and I'm telling the the maintenance pilot we'd actually been complaining about that helicopter for a couple of days a couple of flights saying that it made us feel funny when we flew it and that we didn't want to fly it in the clouds so when it happened we get back and the the poor maintenance guy you know he's we're on night schedule he's on a day schedule

Speaker 5 and i'm like i'm looking for him he should be up by now right we're getting back sun's coming up and i'm looking for him and me and rich are going to kick his ass right

Speaker 5 We just survived this, right? And he was like, oh, it's fine. It's fine.
And so he did take it out to fly.

Speaker 5 And he's like, oh, yeah, there's a problem with, you know, whatever it was, you know, something that was working backwards, essentially, one of the little sensors. And they sent it home.

Speaker 5 Like, they got a C-17 that week, brought a new aircraft in, sent that one home, and

Speaker 5 that kind of stuff. It'll catch you.
You know, there's guys.

Speaker 3 Are you worried about getting shot down while all this is going on, too?

Speaker 5 I mean, it could, it's possible, yeah. At that stage of the game, I wasn't ever worried about getting shot down.
You know, I mean,

Speaker 5 we'll address why when we talk about Anaconda, but

Speaker 5 yeah, I wasn't, I mean, I just,

Speaker 5 this was a good example of why I kind of figured I was going to die on every deployment.

Speaker 5 And that's because if the enemy didn't scare me, it was the terrain and weather that did. Because we would, you know, the problem with Afghanistan in particular, Iraq is so much simpler.

Speaker 5 But Afghanistan, there's no weather reporting that's reliable. you know, and the area is so vast, right?

Speaker 5 I mean, you got these big mountains, you got the plains, the dunes, and the weather patterns, and simple things like temperature can make all the difference whether you have enough power at the top of a mountain versus at the bottom, right?

Speaker 5 Because there's supposed to be a two-degree drop-off in Celsius for every thousand feet you go, except in Afghanistan, it's pretty much the same at 20,000 feet as it is at 10,000 feet.

Speaker 5 So if you're expecting to have a certain amount of power at the top of the hill, the mountain it might not be there. And there's,

Speaker 5 I don't want to go there. There's a,

Speaker 5 let's just say there's a, there's a very famous mission where somebody wished away about 15 degrees of Celsius. And I'm not going to talk about it.
But

Speaker 5 yeah, that's how important, you know, and you know, the funny thing with that is that

Speaker 5 in training in the 90s, we made the mistake at sea level of teaching the Rangers, the SEALs, the Delta guys.

Speaker 5 We had a saying, there's always room for one more ranger, right?

Speaker 5 So if I tell you as the team leader, all right, you can have 25 guys on board and we'll give you, you know, two hours of flight, you know, for that. And you go, okay.

Speaker 5 And we're just about to take off and you go, hey, I got five more guys. Is that okay? Yeah, put them on.
And then, you know, guys come running from the other. Hey, we got three more guys.

Speaker 5 Can we take them? Yeah. Well, Afghanistan, you couldn't do that.
If you gave a number, you know, that was it. You know, so if somebody said, can you take one more ranger? No, I can't.

Speaker 5 You know, and if you did, you would not have enough power for whatever whatever it was you were going to do, and you would pay the price. Now, that wasn't always fatal.

Speaker 5 It wasn't always damage to hardware, but you always came home going, damn, I'm not doing that again.

Speaker 5 And you learn that lesson again and again and again.

Speaker 3 Damn.

Speaker 5 Well, Al,

Speaker 3 let's take a quick break.

Speaker 3 When we come back, we'll get to where he went after flight school. Sure.

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Speaker 3 All right, Al, we're back from the break. We just kind of wrapped up your initial flight training.
And so where are you going after this?

Speaker 5 My assignment as a Chinook pilot at that point is Savannah, Georgia. Going to Hunter Army Airfield, Fort Stewart, Georgia.
And

Speaker 5 so I finish up the Chinook transition, flight school's done, it's behind me. And I take 30 days of leave up in New Hampshire and I'm down to sign in at Hunter Army Airfield.

Speaker 5 So I get there, I sign in, and then what happens when a new aviator gets to a unit is you undergo what's called a commander's aval and progression, RL progression, readiness level.

Speaker 5 So you start out as RL3, readiness level 3, and that means you can only fly with an instructor and then they say, okay, you're safe, you're good, you're RL2, right?

Speaker 5 So once you're in RL2 level, you can now fly with other pilots in command that aren't instructors. And you go, but you're not really qualified to do everything.

Speaker 5 And then you make RL1, readiness level one, and you can do everything because your progression is where it's supposed to be. So, anyway, I get to the unit, I get my commander's aval,

Speaker 5 I get RL3, RL2,

Speaker 5 and then Saddam Hussein invades Kuwait.

Speaker 5 And very, very shortly, we are notified that we're going to deploy.

Speaker 5 Now, I'm in the 18th Airborne Corps, right? Our headquarters is at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and our battalion headquarters is also there. So there's our sister company,

Speaker 5 A Company, and we're in B Company, second on 159.

Speaker 5 We're the Hercules guys. It's a pretty cool nickname.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 what we ended up doing was we flew all of our aircraft. We had 16 Chinooks in our company.
So you had 30 Chinooks total in the battalion. And we flew from Savannah to Wilmington,

Speaker 5 North Carolina to put the aircraft. They're going to tear them down, bubble wrap them, shrink wrap them, and they're going to put them on a top of an old ship, right?

Speaker 5 They didn't even have the old row ros, you know, the roll and roll off.

Speaker 5 These are like you crane it up to the top, and it's going to ride at, you know, five miles an hour from, you know, Wilmington to Saudi Arabia.

Speaker 5 So we fly up there, and there's a whole funny story to that. But

Speaker 5 we take a bus back, and now it's gonna take a month and a half, I think, for our aircraft to get there.

Speaker 5 So, they've got to finish up my training, right? For me to fly in combat, I've got to be readiness level one, not or L2, because you're still technically in training.

Speaker 5 So, the 160th of the 3rd Battalion was right next door, and our instructor pilots knew those instructor pilots.

Speaker 5 They were all friends, you know, and uh, they're like, hey, can we borrow one of your helicopters to to train up you know the woge which is warrant officer junior right it's kind of a uh back in the day i think that was a actually considered the rank now it's considered a slight to say uh the woge let the woge do it you know

Speaker 5 uh but anyway they took me out and uh at the time the third battalion aircraft were uh kind of enhanced delta models so they had like some special radios i think they had a what's called an OBOGS on board oxygen generating system or something like that for high altitude.

Speaker 5 and they had miniguns for defensive armament. That was it.
So that was called a warbird, right? So there's no air refueling, no terrain-falling radar, no special aircraft survivability.

Speaker 5 It's just basically the same thing I've been flying with a couple more radios.

Speaker 5 So I finished my progression, which is kind of poetic, in a 160th aircraft. And then

Speaker 5 we end up flying across. We went on a Boeing 707, right?

Speaker 5 You know, chartered, you know, Trans World Air or something like that. And we had to get gas like every two, three hours.

Speaker 5 So imagine going from Savannah, Georgia, up to Newfoundland and across to Europe and then back in through Egypt into, you know, Saudi Arabia and stopping every two, three hours. And

Speaker 5 they wouldn't let us off the plane, you know, because they didn't have customs clearance. So we'd get there in whatever country it was, we'd be like, you can't get off the plane.

Speaker 5 You know, the damn, the toilets were full of urine. You know, the stink was terrible.
It was terrible. terrible you know and uh but we got there and uh that began operation desert shield

Speaker 3 how i mean

Speaker 3 so you went straight from flight school to the unit knowing that you're gonna fly the possibility that you're gonna pretty close

Speaker 3 yeah within a couple of weeks i mean how did that feel for you you're getting right what you wanted yeah immediately um

Speaker 3 At least I think that's what you want.

Speaker 5 Yeah, but you know, what we didn't talk about earlier is, you know, so

Speaker 5 I grew up in the Cold War, right? And I was, I served in the Cold War. I went to West Germany.
I've been to East Germany, East Berlin, right, through Checkpoint Charlie.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I was always scared we'd really go to war with the Soviet Union, right? Or the or Korea, you know, when I was in Korea the first time.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 it's hard to describe, but I did not want that. I didn't think, you know, being at war would be a good thing, you know,

Speaker 5 for me.

Speaker 5 And so now here we are, I'm very excited to go.

Speaker 5 But I'm, you know, this is a little different attitude than I had in the 160th. The 160th is like, I'm taking the fight to you, and you are going to die if you're a bad guy, you know.
And

Speaker 5 at this time, it was sort of a transition period. It's like, I'm making a change now from being scared to be in war to, okay, we're in war.
This is all right. Very pragmatic, I guess.
And,

Speaker 5 I mean, Desert Shield was like, I don't know, six months long. So I had some time to really adjust to the idea so that when we did go across the border, it was no big deal.

Speaker 5 You know, it was very exhilarating, actually. Very exciting.

Speaker 3 So you did go across the border.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Well, when Desert Storm happened, right? So Desert, this is the funny thing, right? It's all in a name.
Because we had guys,

Speaker 5 I remember this is a conventional unit. Some of these guys had been in Vietnam.
Others hadn't. And

Speaker 5 there was a couple of guys that were really upset that we were probably going to take the Chinooks into Iraq.

Speaker 5 And they were of the mindset that Chinooks would fly from the port to the forward line of troops, and that would be it. You wouldn't go past the forward line of troops.

Speaker 5 And we were being told, no, no, you're going to go deep, right? Because they're going to do operating base Cobra, right?

Speaker 5 Because you've got to have fuel and ammunition and supplies for the Cobras and the Apaches and the artillery to do their thing.

Speaker 5 And so there was two guys that were very, very upset that we were going to do that. And I remember thinking,

Speaker 5 dude, you know,

Speaker 5 what do you want?

Speaker 5 Remember, I wanted to do assault. So to me, this is like,

Speaker 5 this is kind of, it is where I want to be. And

Speaker 5 when,

Speaker 5 so. So Desert Shield, right? Remember I said the army would claim we own the night.

Speaker 5 Well, there were helicopters ripping their landing gear off on sand dunes because

Speaker 5 the sand dunes in Saudi Arabia, they kind of, they go up,

Speaker 5 they plateau and they go up again. And in the dark with the goggles, you could see that first top off and you don't see the setback in the second lip, right?

Speaker 5 So, and you're traveling 120 miles an hour. By the time you see it, it's too late.
You just lost your landing gear, right? And the army lost a couple and then they put some rules into effect.

Speaker 5 You couldn't fly any lower than 150 feet, you know. And

Speaker 5 so we did that for that seven months. And I was moving supplies,

Speaker 5 tank transmissions, tank treads, I mean, whatever you can fit in the back of a Chinook or sling, we were doing, and we were doing it at night.

Speaker 5 And the old guys, so there were two W-1s in the companies, me and a guy named Tim. And he had got there before me, and he was really sharp.

Speaker 5 So, you know, I didn't walk into a show where they're like, ah, you know these stupid wojes you know we're going to these junior guys they're no good instead they welcomed me because the other guy who was only a couple classes ahead of me was such a success so he and I were the guys that prepared all the maps for everybody you know

Speaker 5 did the you know some of the basic planning

Speaker 5 the nug work you know the the math and the in the and the ciphering and

Speaker 5 Every night flight, he and I were on them, not together, we were with other pilots, and they put us with an instructor, we fly at night and the other old guys the senior guys did not want to fly at night because you know we still didn't have all the aircraft with night vision

Speaker 5 lighting so you still had to turn off the lights put the little chem lights around that kind of stuff so it still was very unpleasant to fly now at this point we've got what's called anvis six and the goggles are just two binoculars that slip down in front of your face.

Speaker 5 They hinge up and down. And the crew chiefs were wearing the ones I talked about earlier, the fives, right?

Speaker 5 And,

Speaker 5 but I got experience at night, a couple hundred hours, flying in the desert that the older guys didn't get because they didn't want it, right? So

Speaker 5 when

Speaker 5 Desert Storm happened,

Speaker 5 the 18th Airborne Corps was pretty smart. They decided not to do it at night

Speaker 5 because Cobra, like the initial assault on Cobra, or the infill, the taking of it, we had, I I think, 100 Chinooks involved, flights of five, and we were separated by only a couple of minutes.

Speaker 5 Like, so

Speaker 5 you'd be in the hot refueling pit, and it was the most impressive

Speaker 5 hot refueling I've ever seen, the 101st did it. It was like a mile long, just helicopters.

Speaker 5 You know, it was all Chinooks, and then it was Blackhawks, and you were plugged in, getting gas while you're running, and then they'd call over the radio, and we were, you know, like let's say I was in a silver flight, right?

Speaker 5 Silver one through five. And they'd be like, silver one, your grid coordinates are.

Speaker 5 You didn't care what you were carrying. It was going to be 18,000 pounds, which is about the max you're going to carry for this.
Silver two, here's your grid, right?

Speaker 5 We all had different grids, and we'd pick up, we'd fly over, just hover over the loads that were already set up for us. And the guys were the most aggressive hookup men I've ever seen.

Speaker 5 I mean, you just got over it, and they like hooked the, it was a tandem load, so a forward and a aft hook. to keep it from spinning.

Speaker 5 Once everybody's hooked up, off we go at 120 knots, up into afghanistan and when you hit a release point everybody went their separate way to their landing zones and

Speaker 5 keep in mind there's flights in front of you and flights behind you so as you're coming in guys are coming out guys are right behind you and it's just it looks like a hornet's nest and if we had done that at night we'd have killed

Speaker 5 you said afghanistan i i meant i meant iraq I meant Iraq. Yeah.
So this is that famous the Schwarzkopf, the left hook. You know,

Speaker 5 that was us. So moving all

Speaker 5 the equipment and the people

Speaker 5 out west of Kuwait. Wow.
So some of the loads were

Speaker 5 Hum Vs internal with a Todd 105 howitzer.

Speaker 5 Yeah. So

Speaker 5 the gun tube would be up in the cockpit, right? So you have the overhead panel and you have the engine conditional levers that do the power on the engines. And the gun tube was right up inside.

Speaker 5 Wow. It was pretty cool.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 Did you guys take any fire or anything like that no no no it was all uh I think we caught them by surprise we were out in the middle of nowhere and uh but

Speaker 5 because of that and all of the lessons learned up until that point the army decided all right we didn't and maybe we didn't own the night we just lease it now you know we rented it and we're leasing lease to own you know kind of thing but uh what sucked about that mission is remember i said that you know me and the other w-1 were the guys they always always sent out with the senior guys the other older guys didn't even fly goggles didn't even have them on board because they thought it was safer to fly without MVGs than with right so wow so one night

Speaker 5 so the surrender has happened right I mean we're a hundred hours in the surrender has happened and

Speaker 5 We take five Chinooks up into Iraq and we're going to bring back prisoners, right? Prisoner of war. The Iraqis had surrendered in droves.

Speaker 5 And we go up there, it's daylight.

Speaker 5 We pick up these prisoners. We're moving back, but we don't have any gas.
All the places we were supposed to get gas had already moved.

Speaker 5 So we kept hopping from place to place, and there was no gas. And we eventually ran out of gas.
We had to land in the middle of the desert, each of us with 40, 50 Iraqi prisoners on the back.

Speaker 5 And I had a 38 with five bullets in it.

Speaker 5 The hammer was on the empty chamber because that was what they made us do. We had two M60s, but those were pointed out.
These guys are all inside. We didn't have any guards, no nothing.

Speaker 5 But these guys luckily were very compliant.

Speaker 3 It was just pilots and prisoners.

Speaker 5 Two pilots, a flight engineer and a crew chief.

Speaker 5 A guy up front, guy in the back. We all had 38s.
Holy five bullets.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 And so,

Speaker 5 funny thing, so we're coming back before we run out of gas. And

Speaker 5 you could smoke an army aircraft back then, right?

Speaker 5 And the crew chief in the back lights up a cigarette and one of the the Iraqis is like, you know, gives a signal for, hey, let me have a smoke, right?

Speaker 5 So he hands him the cigarette and he puffs it, passes the next night, it passes all the way up to the front of the aircraft, all the way down.

Speaker 5 And by the time it gets to him, it's a soggy lump of, you know, paper, really. And then

Speaker 5 they hand it to him, and he looks at it, kind of disgusted, and they're like,

Speaker 5 like, you know, have it right? And he's like, sir, they want me to smoke this thing. It's all dripping with drool.
And I'm like, well,

Speaker 5 better keep them happy because you know they could take us easy right he's like all right fine so he's like i'm gonna get hepatitis you know he smokes a cigarette and they're all yeah they cheer and they stayed they stayed compliant the whole time until you know we ran out of gas and um an mp unit eventually drove up and took them away you know like they found us took them away and we ended up spending the night in iraq um

Speaker 5 until a convoy went by and that convoy had fuel trucks in it and we waved them down and they put gas in the aircraft and we didn't have any, our command had no idea where we were, you know, because we hadn't SATCOM, we didn't have radio communications with anybody.

Speaker 5 We were just in the middle of the desert. And we're nowhere near where we should have been because we've been hopping around looking for gas.
Holy shit.

Speaker 5 So we come back, we get gas, we come back into Saudi Arabia

Speaker 5 and we we had to go, we still had some prisoners and we dropped them off. And now we're going to fly back to assembly area palm which is where we were based out of down the tapline road

Speaker 5 and um so of the flight of five three of the crews had mvgs so we sent the two without mvgs back first

Speaker 5 five minute separation so one takes off climbs up to 3 000 feet well above any turret you know obstacles they fly back and they just do the old fashioned they get there they spiral down, they land, all good, right?

Speaker 5 Next one goes, and now it's my turn.

Speaker 5 We're the first MVG aircraft to go back so we're flying at 250 300 feet

Speaker 5 got goggles i'm navigating and i'm looking at the antennas down the road right there about every five six miles or so and i got them on my map right and i'm looking like looking out there and i'm like

Speaker 5 i see two of the three antennas i should see

Speaker 5 come right Let's offset a mile, right? So we kind of came right, kind of paralleled the course. I'm about a mile right a course.

Speaker 5 Never saw the antenna. I'm like, I don't see the antenna.
I don't know where it is, right? Maybe I'm just not navigating right. And we get back to our assembly area.
We lay in.

Speaker 5 Next aircraft comes in behind us with goggles.

Speaker 5 And then the last aircraft with the commander and the chief pilot on board, they have goggles, but they've elected not to wear them because it's easier to fly unaided, they think, right?

Speaker 5 This is that mindset back then. They come back at 250, 300 feet.

Speaker 5 They run into that unlaid antenna that we had all all avoided, except they ran right into it and killed all the air crew. The door gunner was an instrument.
He actually lived.

Speaker 5 He said the last words were, oh, hell, would that come from? You know, damn it.

Speaker 5 So,

Speaker 5 you know, a very valuable lesson, you know, learned there, you know, in what an obstacle will do to you, you know, whether it's the ground or an antenna or wires, you know, or the enemy.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 5 that was, so when we got back from that, so that was essentially the end of Desert Shield and Desert Storm.

Speaker 5 So we redeployed back to Savannah. And when the aircraft got there, the Army was now going to own the night, right? So everything we did, everything,

Speaker 5 every exercise, every drill, every practice involved night vision goggles. So and it and it helped.
I mean, it made a big deal.

Speaker 5 But because I was a high-time goggle guy in the unit, even as a junior pilot, I had 200 hours of MVG time when the, you know, the senior guys had like 25.

Speaker 5 You know, they got their qualification time and that's it because they never flew it. And so everything we did,

Speaker 5 I was on that

Speaker 5 mission. And that started my whole trend toward where I would end up in the 160th.

Speaker 3 When did the 160th kind of pop up on your radar?

Speaker 5 Well, because they were next door to us in Savannah, And I said everybody knew each other.

Speaker 5 Our commander was actually married to a warrant officer over there, right? So when we were in Saudi Arabia during Desert Shield, they would come visit.

Speaker 5 They'd fly down for official purposes, but they'd have the time to do a conjugal visit or something like that, I guess.

Speaker 5 And so I kind of knew them already. I'd listened to the war stories, what they were doing.
Oh, they were going up into Iraq, you know, while we were still doing the Saudi stuff.

Speaker 5 I said, what's it like in Iraq? You know, he's like, oh, it's dark. You know, okay, a little more than that, buddy.
But so I already kind of knew about that. But

Speaker 5 that other W-1 that I talked about,

Speaker 5 Tim,

Speaker 5 he had assessed. Like we got back.
He's like, you know what? I want to go to the 160th. So he put in his packet, he assessed, and for whatever reason, he was not selected.

Speaker 5 I considered him a better pilot than me.

Speaker 5 And I figured, well, crap. If they're not going to take him, there's no way they're taking me, right? He's way better than me.
And once again, that's very subjective.

Speaker 5 And later on in life, life, having given the selection evaluations, I understand there's a lot involved there. It's not just how good a pilot you are.
But

Speaker 5 so anyway, that's the start of it. And then I get a sign.

Speaker 3 Before we go any farther, can you give us a little history under the 160th?

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 in Iran,

Speaker 5 the Shah of Iran is in charge. He leaves.
He's pushed out, really.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I can't remember if he was in France or the U.S., but we were supporting him. And so a group of student protesters

Speaker 5 protested outside the U.S. Embassy in Tehran, and they ended up taking it.

Speaker 5 Now, from my understanding, they've done something like that before, but then they gave it back. In this case, they didn't give it back.
So we had American hostages, Marines, embassy personnel

Speaker 5 kept for

Speaker 5 354 days or something like that.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 so there they are. And then President Carter at the time, you know,

Speaker 5 the military options were very few, right? JSOC didn't exist. All the special operations community had sort of disbanded after Vietnam.

Speaker 5 And Charlie Beckwith had just essentially stood up Delta Force, right?

Speaker 5 But they needed, so they were going to send Delta Force in to rescue the American hostages.

Speaker 5 The problem was they got to get there. How are they going to get there? Helicopters.
All right. Well, what do we want to use to get there? Chinooks.

Speaker 5 The problem is you're getting by a Navy ship, right? Chinooks do not fold up handily like a Navy aircraft will, right? So they were afraid OPSEC was a big concern. This is Operation Eagle Claw, right?

Speaker 5 So they don't want to put Chinooks on top of a ship because that'll raise questions. You know, why are there Chinooks on top of an aircraft carrier? You know, that's not normal.

Speaker 5 So instead, they decided to use

Speaker 5 CH-53s and they wanted to use the minesweepers

Speaker 5 which were flown by Navy pilots. And they figured flying off a ship was the hardest part of the mission, right? Which in hindsight, that's the easiest part.
But so they do these rehearsals with Delta.

Speaker 5 And back then, they didn't have this like one location where they did rehearsals and we sit face to face and we say, you know, Sean, I don't like how you did this.

Speaker 5 Well, Al, I don't like how you did this. All right, let's adjust.
It was all done.

Speaker 5 You're probably old enough to remember the

Speaker 5 teletype format. Like you get, like if you ever get like a ship's position, the overhead message all comes like in a teletype.

Speaker 5 That's how they did their AARs, the after-action reviews, right? Was through teletype. So there wasn't really plain English.
It was kind of like, you know. pilots sucked, you know,

Speaker 5 but you can't really explain why, right?

Speaker 5 So these guys are flying into the dust with night vision goggles and it's super dark and there's no reference, right and there's no like looking at blades of grass so they came up with this it's called a pink light an infrared filter on top of a searchlight so you extend your light out it's a white light with a piece of basically a piece of brown waxed paper over it you know held on with a little frame and the problem was uh you can only see that light So it's like you see with an AC-130 when they get the burn-on, right?

Speaker 5 You can only see it with your night vision goggles.

Speaker 5 The problem is if you leave it on too long, it will burn through and it will now be a white light, right?

Speaker 5 So you learn to use it very sparingly, which is funny because years later we were still like, turn the light on, turn it back off, even though it was a glass thing.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 the Delta guys were unhappy with the pilots. They crashed every single time, you know, I mean, controlled crash.
And so they wanted new pilots. So now they're like, all right, who else can fly?

Speaker 5 a Navy aircraft and the primary thing is landing in the dust? The Marines. Because the Marines do the ship to beach, right? The Navy guys do ship to ship, essentially.

Speaker 5 They're no better because they have no experience. And they have the same limitations.
So they want to change the pilots again, but it's go time, right? So they got to go what they got, right?

Speaker 5 So they execute. They fly the Delta guys in on 130s.
They land at Desert 1. right, designated desert landing area.

Speaker 5 And those 130s are going to transfer the Delta operators to the helicopters when they get there right because the helicopters couldn't carry them that far and do the gas so they came on the 130.

Speaker 5 So they'll do that. They'll get gas.
They'll take the operators. They'll go to Desert 2, spend the day and then do the mission, right? That's the plan.

Speaker 5 Eight helicopters take off,

Speaker 5 encounter a sandstorm that's like 4,000 feet high.

Speaker 5 you can't see in it so they separate right so they now they're like all right you know they're five minutes apart so they don't run into each other

Speaker 5 i think uh

Speaker 5 a couple of them turned around for maintenance problems related to the dust

Speaker 5 and uh

Speaker 5 the min force for the mission i think was six

Speaker 5 and they showed up with six except one was broken they were down to five or may have been five and four i can't remember it's irrelevant

Speaker 5 So they abort.

Speaker 5 We don't have enough helicopters to get them there. We have to abort.

Speaker 5 So the helicopters are going to go back to the ship. The Delta operator is going to get back on the 130s.
They're going to go back. They're going to reset.
They'll try again another night.

Speaker 5 Problem is, because they can't see the helicopter pilots, you have

Speaker 5 you've been to an airport on a jet airliner, you come into the gate and you get the guys with the colored wands, you know, the lighted wands, and like, you know, doing this kind of thing for the pilots to see to direct them into the parking.

Speaker 5 We do that with helicopters, right?

Speaker 5 You get the wines and you kind of like come up to a hover, stationary, you know, come left, come right, go, that kind of thing. You see that on ships all the time.

Speaker 5 So the guy that's doing that, so the helicopters crank up, they pick up to a hover, the guy with the wands is bringing them up

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 tells them to go, and then he walks toward the aircraft, and as I'm told, he put the wands in his pocket and they were still on.

Speaker 5 The only thing the pilots can see is the wands, the lighted wands, and they follow them.

Speaker 5 And the guy walked right into the C-130, and the helicopter followed him right into it.

Speaker 5 Impacted the C-130 full of 5,000 gallons of gas and a bunch of Delta operators that were kind of just hanging out. Aircraft explodes, helicopter explodes.
It's mayhem.

Speaker 5 They all load up on the remaining 130s and they head back. Utter failure, national

Speaker 5 embarrassment. And so

Speaker 5 JSOC is born right because the problem that they found was that because there was no mutual not mutual habitual relationship between the air crews the 130s you know the ships and the operators you had all these problems and so they created a unit task force 160 out of task force 158 and some other things so it was a national guard unit with oh sixes

Speaker 5 uh helicopters from the 101st chinooks and uh and hueys initially then blackhawks and they planned to do Operation Honey Badger, which was the second rescue attempt, right? So they're ready to do it.

Speaker 5 President Reagan gets in office. The Iranians release the hostages.

Speaker 5 No more mission for the JSOC operators. General Meyer, I believe it was, was the chief of staff.

Speaker 5 or maybe the chairman, and he said, you know what?

Speaker 5 You keep that unit together.

Speaker 5 So JSOC formed, the 160th became the 160th SOAG Special Operations Aviation Group, and they stuck together. And then you had this habitual relationship that lasts today.

Speaker 5 And, you know, we can do things now that they never dreamed, you know, that could be done. But that's really where the 160th came from.
And then, you know, as it grew.

Speaker 5 Out of the group, it became a regiment. And like when I got there, there were only 300 guys in the regiment.

Speaker 5 there's like 4,000 now wow because you have three battalions and then some special mission units

Speaker 5 just it's big so when someone goes hey oh you were in the 160th you know you know bilbo baggins I'm like

Speaker 5 what does he fly I don't know

Speaker 3 okay so what kind of birds do

Speaker 5 they fly in the 160th so all three battalions

Speaker 5 I take that back. All three locations, Fort Lewis, Washington, or JBLM now, Joint Base Lewis-McCord, they have Chinooks and Blackhawks.

Speaker 5 Savannah, Georgia has Chinooks and Blackhawks. And then Campbell is the anomaly.
It's got Chinooks and Blackhawks, but it also has little birds, which have two variants.

Speaker 5 It's an OH-6, has an armed version and a assault version. So the MHs modified an AH attack.
And then the Blackhawks have a assault version and a what's called a DAP,

Speaker 5 direct action penetrator. So it's an armed blackhawks.
It's got a 30 millimeter chain gun. You know, it can carry hellfires, rockets, miniguns, sometimes all at the same time.

Speaker 5 Other times they have to make selections, you know, based on weight, you know, what they're going to carry. I have beautiful stories about DAPs.
We'll probably touch on them a little bit.

Speaker 5 But that's the regiment. Very cool.
Wow.

Speaker 3 Thank you for that history. So,

Speaker 3 all right, so back to

Speaker 3 what do you call it? Selection?

Speaker 5 Assessment.

Speaker 3 Assessment.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 3 your buddy Tim, he doesn't make it.

Speaker 3 And now you're thinking, well, if he can't make it, I'm not going to make it.

Speaker 5 I'm not going to make it. So

Speaker 5 I get assigned to Korea for my second tour.

Speaker 5 And while there, because I had a lot of night vision goggle time, because the old guys didn't want to, it's like incremental, right? It just builds on each other.

Speaker 5 And so I get there and I end up as a night vision goggle trainer.

Speaker 5 a no-fly-line trainer.

Speaker 5 So you had to fly the border between North and South Korea to learn all the corridors corridors and all the landmarks that if you were operating in what they call the tax zone, Papa 518, that if you were approaching the border, you could recognize geographic features and turn around, right?

Speaker 5 So like after I left that next year,

Speaker 5 an OH-58 straight across was shot down. They killed one of the pilots.
They held the other guy.

Speaker 5 Bobby Hall for, I don't know, a couple weeks or months. I can't really remember.
And then they let him go after they, you know, thoroughly embarrassed him and us, right?

Speaker 5 So that's the importance of the job is that. And because

Speaker 5 I did that

Speaker 5 and I showed

Speaker 5 like some of the senior guys, like there was a CW-5 that came over. He'd been a Vietnam pilot.
Everybody knew him in the community, in the Chinook community.

Speaker 5 And he flew with me up there, and I was just flying along what's called a corridor up to, you know, where Pim Moon Jam is? You know, that you get the, or you've seen it in the news.

Speaker 5 It's the, where the peace table is between North and South Korea, right?

Speaker 5 So you've got this, this piece of property, there's a building on it, half in South Korea, half in North Korea, and there's a table in there, and that's where they sit and they discuss things.

Speaker 5 And I would, we would fly people up there, usually dignitaries.

Speaker 5 But there's very specific rules, and I would, you know, fly him up there, and I was like, all right, you know,

Speaker 5 stay at or below 100 feet, you know, consistent with safety, you know, left and right, of course, 200 meters, blah, blah, blah. And I talked through it, and he's like, who taught you

Speaker 5 how to talk like that? It's like a, they call it MOI, method of instruction. And I was like, I don't know.
I read the regulation and came up with it. He's like, you need to be an instructor.

Speaker 5 So he actually

Speaker 5 called some friends at DA, Department of the Army, HRC, if you will, and got me a slot to go to the instructor pilot course, but I had to go and stay at...

Speaker 5 Fort Rucker and teach at the schoolhouse if I did that, which turned out, you know, it's a a whole other story. We're definitely going to get to.

Speaker 3 So how'd you get into 160th?

Speaker 5 All right. So now we're back at Fort Rucker.
So I'm a young chief warrant officer too.

Speaker 5 So Army aviators, their wings. You start out with a set of wings and then you get a star when you're a senior aviator.
It's like, you know, I don't know.

Speaker 5 four or five years and so many hours and they give you a star. So I didn't have a star yet, so I'm a very junior aviator.

Speaker 5 And then when you're a master aviator, you get a wreath around that star, right?

Speaker 5 So you can look at an Army Warrant officer and see, you know, where is he in his experience level just based on his wings. And so I get there.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 my first two set of students were great, a lot of fun because they were also. So wait, hold on.

Speaker 3 So you're a junior pilot. Yeah.
But they want to put you as an instructor. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Because of my skill level.

Speaker 5 So I'm good enough to be an instructor, just not a senior guy. Now remember now, all these old guys are retiring, right?

Speaker 5 That's why they brought us young guys in, is because they had to backfill essentially to meet their requirements. So now

Speaker 5 what's starting to be in all the key positions is young CW2s and W-3s, right? So junior to mid-grade warrant officers.

Speaker 5 And this is where it ties in because so my first two set of students were great because they were W-1s right out of flight school and they listened to me and I had a good time.

Speaker 5 Then the Alabama National Guard, which was flying CH-54 Sky Cranes, which is this grasshopper looking thing that they flew in Vietnam and they had that in Birmingham,

Speaker 5 they retired it and gave them Chinooks. So now they all have to come down and take a Chinook transition.

Speaker 5 Well, these guys all have way more, they're all Vietnam vets, they're all way more experienced in flying than me, and they don't want to fly Chinooks.

Speaker 5 They don't have a choice, but they act like I personally brought them down. They did not like listening to a snot-nosed W-2 telling them what to do.
And it was miserable teaching them.

Speaker 5 So they didn't want to listen. They did what they had to do to get through.
Every flight was misery.

Speaker 5 Every sitting at the table, you know, doing what we call table talk, talking about emergency procedures and all this aerodynamics, they didn't want to listen to me. And I hated it.

Speaker 5 And it was a couple of classes of that. And then they went.
And then they gave me foreign students. Now, foreign students are different in that the ones that come to fly Chinooks, you know, from,

Speaker 5 you know, the Dutch, the Singapore guys, the Aussies, the Brits,

Speaker 5 these are not dirtbags. These are not guys that are there because they don't want to fly the aircraft.
They're there. They're all aerospace engineers in their own military.

Speaker 5 They were okay to fly with. They were very nice, very polite.

Speaker 5 pretended to pay attention to me.

Speaker 5 They listened, they made eye contact kind of thing. But I knew I wasn't teaching them anything, right? I mean, they knew far more than me.

Speaker 5 Just by reading the manual, they knew more than I could teach them. That's how good these foreign students were.
So it was unrewarding.

Speaker 5 And I needed something. And I was probably still a little too junior to get away from that assault stuff I wanted to do.

Speaker 5 And a buddy of mine who I went through, the instructor pilot course, came through for another school. And he's like, Allie, you're miserable.
You know, we're out for a drink or dinner or whatever.

Speaker 5 And he throws a application packet on the the table. He's like,

Speaker 5 fill that out. You need to come to the 160th.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I still had that mindset that I wasn't good enough.

Speaker 5 And you didn't fill it out on a laptop or on a computer because they didn't really exist, you know, in quantity back then.

Speaker 5 It was a stubby pencil, you know, number two pencil, filling out the application. It was like, you know, half inch thick.

Speaker 5 And I'd fill it out, you know, a couple pages at a time, you know, a couple days ago in between. And eventually it was done.
He's like, well, so I sent it in.

Speaker 5 To my surprise, like two weeks later, they're like, Mr. Mac, we'd like you to come assess.

Speaker 5 Like, me? Really?

Speaker 5 Okay, right. So I go up, I assess.

Speaker 5 I didn't think I did that well. As a matter of fact, I got lost on my navigation route,

Speaker 5 which everybody does for the most part. You're not passing the flight, just so you know, they will do something so you don't fly.
You don't, you just, you're not going to hit your target on time.

Speaker 3 It's made sure that you're not going to achieve success.

Speaker 5 And the reason for that is they want to see how you behave under duress in the cockpit.

Speaker 5 You know, when all of a sudden you're not where you're supposed to be and you don't know where you are and you know you've still got to get to your

Speaker 5 unlit target plus or minus 30 seconds and you have to be within, you know, I think it's plus or minus two minutes at every checkpoint and within 100 meters of the checkpoint, right?

Speaker 5 So I mean, you have to be, so you're going to be outside the parameters in some sort or fashion. And so when you get under that pressure, how do you do?

Speaker 5 Do you fold or do you do what you got to do and keep trying, you know? And they can tell because they're going to teach you how to navigate their way anyway.

Speaker 5 So they don't care if you get lost, you know, but it's how do you behave? And there are guys, I've seen guys melt down and start crying in the cockpit when they got lost.

Speaker 5 You just knew that it's like, it's like that guy with the grade point average that gave up, you know, before he got,

Speaker 5 you don't know. I mean, who knows?

Speaker 5 I might help you out later on and say, hey, because sometimes it'll be like, hey see that bridge over there is that on your map oh and you kind of re-cage them you know but it's all based on how they're behaving if they're giving up I'm not gonna help them you know it's like all right yeah

Speaker 5 so but that's that's how you start the process is the well I take that back the first thing you do is a PT test standard army PT test with pull-ups, which the Army didn't do, and a swim test, which the Army didn't do.

Speaker 5 The funny thing is, is I got there. Now, keep in mind, the 160th was formed in 1980, right after that, you know, Eagle Claw, right?

Speaker 5 I'm there, this is 1995.

Speaker 5 So the unit really is still pretty new. A lot of people don't know much about it.
They're still very, you know, cloaked in darkness and secrecy.

Speaker 5 So I get there and I'm like, should I wear an Army PT, you know, shorts and shirt, or should I be in civilian, you know, PTs? I mean, it sounds absurd, but it went through my mind, right?

Speaker 5 So I showed up wearing civilians, right? And I'm like, if they don't want me, you know, tough.

Speaker 5 You know, if they don't want me because of this, you know, screw them, right?

Speaker 5 I drive up in the parking lot and I made sure I had my Army PTs

Speaker 5 in case they're like, Mr. Mac, I thought you were going to be in your, but they didn't say anything, right? And then you do your PT test.
They, they, they don't tell you how you're doing, right?

Speaker 5 That's all at the end. So they don't count your push-ups.
So you don't know how many you're doing or your sit-ups or any of that stuff, your pull-ups.

Speaker 5 And then you go over to the pool you put a flight suit on flight gear helmet you jump in you do

Speaker 5 I want to say it's 15 minutes of treading water with just your feet 15 minutes with just your hands 15 minutes regular and then like a minute dead man's float right and then you do a deep water entry can't touch the pool and you got to swim underwater a designated amount of distance and you don't know what that is right so i do it i'm out of breath and i'm comfortable in the pool but i'm not a strong swimmer you know with gear on.

Speaker 5 I mean, I've never done this. And so I jump in and I'm trying very easy to swim.
And I run out of air, and I come up and I get out. And I'm like, I don't know if that was far enough, you know?

Speaker 5 And the recruiter comes up with a clipboard and he taps it. He's like, Mr.
Mac, did you get to go twice? I was like,

Speaker 5 did I get to go twice? No. He's like, get back in line.
So I'm like, obviously I didn't pass, right?

Speaker 5 So now

Speaker 5 I get in and instead of trying to take it easy, I'm pounding it, right? I get my head down, I'm pounding it. I can feel the styrofoam on my helmets dragging me to the surface.

Speaker 5 And I'm not, as long as you don't take your face out of the water, you can keep going like that. And I'm like, you know what? They're not going to let me die.
Shallow water, blackout, whatever, right?

Speaker 5 I get down there. I feel a tap on my helmet.
I've made it to the end, you know? And I get out and that was that.

Speaker 5 And then you go from there to the psychology.

Speaker 5 You take a test. It's like a 600 test, not a 300 question test, all psychology.
Would you rather pick your nose or pick your buddy's blister? Would you rather work on a Friday?

Speaker 5 Weird stuff that doesn't make sense. And then you take a general aviation knowledge test, which nobody can pass because they're asking the parameters of specific air defense systems.

Speaker 5 SA-7 radar system has a minimum engagement range of what, out to what distance and stuff like that.

Speaker 5 And that's the kind of stuff if you're going into a theater that has it you bone up on it but there's too many systems around the world to to know everything like to that extent right yeah so you have rules of thumb if you didn't know like if if the if the if the what we call the raw gear if it shows up you know sa8

Speaker 5 but you didn't expect them to have sa8s

Speaker 5 it still might be a roland or something these are defense systems right so they all have different distances and parameters.

Speaker 5 But anyway, you take this test and they're going to use this against you later on. Oh, you only scored a, you know, a 30 on the general aviation knowledge test.

Speaker 5 And you consider yourself a pilot, you know?

Speaker 5 But you do that, and you get your mission, which is your navigation route. You brief it, you fly it, you come back, and then the next day you do your board, right?

Speaker 5 So you're in your dress uniform, you sit in front of a panel of officers.

Speaker 3 This is the navigation route that everybody fails. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 5 So now,

Speaker 5 I mean, even if you make your target on time, you will have been out of parameter somewhere.

Speaker 5 So, you know, they're like, oh, you, you failed. And some people, when they get told they failed, even though they made it to the target on time, they get mad, right?

Speaker 5 And so the goal of the panel is to, well, let's put it this way. First of all, there's guys that get to get that far and we know we don't want you because you're just a jerk, right?

Speaker 5 And we know you won't fit in.

Speaker 5 You know, you were good enough to get this far, but you're, you don't fit the profile.

Speaker 5 And you're a jerk. We're going to put you through hell on that board and then not take you.

Speaker 5 Those are the guys that go out and badmouth us in the regular army. Oh, those guys are jerks, you know.

Speaker 5 Then you get the guys who we know we don't want you,

Speaker 5 but you're a sincere person.

Speaker 5 You come in, you're in there 20, 30 minutes max, and we let you down easy and we put you out. Maybe even give you some guidance to come back, right? But we take it easy on you.

Speaker 5 Those guys typically treat us nice, you know, in the gossip world. Then you get the guys, the majority of them, that it's, mmm, yes, no, maybe, we don't know.

Speaker 5 Let's see how this guy handles pressure, right? So now you got to handle critique, right? I mean, you know what it's like in the in the teams, right? I mean, you guys,

Speaker 5 we do not,

Speaker 5 you know, take it easy on each other. You got to have some thin skin, there's some thick skin, right? You got a can of thick skin and you spray it on, you know?

Speaker 3 I think the worst is pure critiques.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Do you you guys have those?

Speaker 5 We did them in flight school, but

Speaker 5 we didn't have to do them in the regular unit. But so

Speaker 5 the instructor will tell you what you did wrong, maybe even tell you what you did right, but

Speaker 5 it's criticism. Hey, you did this wrong, you did this wrong, and in the end, you do not meet the standard, you failed the flight.

Speaker 5 Okay, then the recruiter says, all right, PT, you know, physical. training, you know, you did this many push-ups, this many sit-ups, this many run.
And like in my case, they're like, you did way more.

Speaker 5 You scored way higher than the one you submitted. Why is that?

Speaker 5 I don't know. Maybe I tried harder.
Wrong words, right? And they're like, oh, so you don't try hard at your unit?

Speaker 5 I don't know what to tell you.

Speaker 5 I didn't know, right? So I just tried as hard as I could. You should be trying as hard as you can all the time.

Speaker 5 Point taken, right? And I just, instead of getting upset, I'm just point taken, got it. I'll do that.
Thank you for that professional, you know, critique. And then they start asking you,

Speaker 5 you know,

Speaker 5 why you scored so low in the general aviation tests, you know, why do you think you should be a night stalker? You know, questions like that family situation.

Speaker 5 And in my case, you know, as I talked about in my book,

Speaker 5 my wife had had a suicide attempt when I was in Korea. And I thought, you know, that was all kind of resolved,

Speaker 5 but I thought that would stop me from getting in.

Speaker 5 And I told the psychologist about it. You know, they knew there was no, I didn't want any secrets here.
And I thought, you know, that's going to torpedo me.

Speaker 5 They're going to, they're going to treat me nice and they're going to let me go. They thought they were being mean to me, you know,

Speaker 5 asking questions that should make me upset. And all I could think of every time they asked me a question that they thought would make me upset is they didn't ask about my wife.

Speaker 5 They didn't ask about my family situation. And for me,

Speaker 5 the board, the hardest part was the anticipation that they would ask that question and then kick me out. And they never did.
And they accepted me.

Speaker 5 Do they accept you right there? They kick you out of the room. They deliberate, you know, five, ten minutes, which I've been on the other end of that.

Speaker 5 You know, in the first two minutes, they've decided, and then the rest 15, they're making you sweat. And you come back in and they're like, welcome to the 160th, Mr.
Mac. And then,

Speaker 5 you know, we'll see you in about a year, right? Because I got to go back to my unit. And that's the agreement we had with the Army is they wouldn't poach

Speaker 5 skills without. giving you a heads up.
And then the psychiatrist took me out and he's like, all right, look, I know you were probably worried about the family situation. We see it all the time.

Speaker 5 We can handle it. Sounds like you got it under control.
You know, we'll work with you on this. And if you ever need to share it with me.
Oh, shit. So they knew the whole time.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 they just never brought it up.

Speaker 3 So they probably would have used that

Speaker 3 to drop you.

Speaker 5 Yeah, they'd have dropped me like that, you know,

Speaker 5 if it was going to be a problem. So I'd get back to my unit.

Speaker 5 Hold on. Hold on.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 How many people, how many aviators are trying out for this?

Speaker 5 I mean, it varies.

Speaker 5 In my assessment week, there were probably

Speaker 5 20 guys.

Speaker 5 How many are there today?

Speaker 5 Depends. It just depends.

Speaker 3 Because you said when you went in, there was about 300 aviators.

Speaker 5 Oh, right, right. There's about 300.

Speaker 5 4,000. 3,500.
Yeah, about 4,000, depending.

Speaker 3 So what's the, let me ask this:

Speaker 3 what's the attrition rate?

Speaker 5 It's not,

Speaker 5 it's usually done in the pre-selection. So

Speaker 5 at that time,

Speaker 5 it was roughly

Speaker 5 25% of the people that applied just were rejected outright. You never got to Fort Campbell.
Then when you got there, it was probably about 10, 15% didn't make it.

Speaker 5 So most of the guys that get there make it. But you're not just there for Shooks.
You're there for the Little Birds and the Black Hawks. You've got this whole potpourri of

Speaker 5 aviators there. So

Speaker 5 they weed out really the guys.

Speaker 3 Is everybody flying their specified aircraft? Or

Speaker 3 are you all flying something

Speaker 3 that...

Speaker 5 So when you get there, and this has changed, by the way. So when I got there, because I was a Chinook pilot, I did

Speaker 5 all my training flights in a Chinook. I did my navigation flight in a Chinook.

Speaker 5 And a couple of years later, actually, I was in Sear School.

Speaker 5 when one of our aircraft was out doing an assessment, just like what I just told you, and they encountered weather, and

Speaker 5 we still don't know what happened. It rolled, inverted, and came out of the sky, and they all were killed instantly.
So

Speaker 5 that pilot was not a Chinook pilot, but everybody considered, I mean, I could take any pilot, put them in a Chinook, and as long as there's no emergencies, they're going to be able to fly it.

Speaker 5 I can get in the Blackhawk and fly it, you know, or anything else. But if something bad happens, I don't know what to do.
So anyway, they made a new rule that if you were a Chinook guy you could do

Speaker 5 the assessment in the Chinook. You could do what I did.
If you are not a Chinook guy you would do a simulator period with the instructor

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 sort of like what I would do is see if guys could learn the aircraft. So it's a glass cockpit.

Speaker 5 There's these little TV screens buttons all over the place and that's how you see what's going on and then you fly it and I would say okay do this do this. Here's a hover page do this and

Speaker 5 I would see

Speaker 5 if they could mimic what I asked them to do if they did I kind of view it as this guy is trainable I can train him if you get a guy that can't remember you know what button to do

Speaker 5 He's not trainable probably, right? And so

Speaker 5 for us to take him, he's going to need some other things. But anyway, they took all the other guys that came from other airframes.

Speaker 5 You know, let's say you had a Cobra guy because they were still flying at the time. A couple of my best friends in the 160 that are Chinook pilots were Cobra pilots before they got there.

Speaker 5 And they fly everything in the little bird, right?

Speaker 5 And that's where you do all your navigation training, by the way, in Green Platoon, which is where they teach you how to navigate, brief, and plan like a night stalker.

Speaker 5 You go out and you fly in a little, you know, little egg-shaped thing, you know, and it's being a Chinook guy with a nice big cockpit.

Speaker 5 And you get in that little egg, and it's like, you know, your shoulders are up against the guy, and, you know, the doors are off, so you have to put your map under your leg, and

Speaker 5 it's unpleasant to fly that thing.

Speaker 3 You didn't like flying the little birds? No.

Speaker 5 No, shit. That was a pain in the ass.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 What is the most, what is the,

Speaker 3 what do you think the most, what do most guys want to fly at 160th?

Speaker 5 It depends what they did first, right? So if they're already a Chinook guy, they want to fly Chinooks. If they're a Ranger, they want to fly Chinooks.

Speaker 5 If they did something else or they're already a Blackhawk guy, you know.

Speaker 3 What do you mean if if they're a Ranger?

Speaker 5 I can tell you that a high...

Speaker 3 Like an 82nd?

Speaker 5 Like a U.S. Army Ranger.

Speaker 3 I'm sorry, 75th guy? Yep. So

Speaker 3 75th guys is... Wait a minute.
Here's what they do.

Speaker 5 So you get all these Rangers, right? We do a lot of work with them, and they usually end up in the Chinooks because of the quantity of people.

Speaker 5 They reach the rank E5, E6.

Speaker 5 Their knees are aching. They want to be a pilot.
They put in for it. They get accepted.
and then they might go to a regular unit first, do two, three years, then come to us. Or

Speaker 5 if you have a background, like you know, we had some SEALs, we had some Delta guys, a lot of Delta guys.

Speaker 5 Um,

Speaker 5 you know, a good friend of mine, Mike Rutledge, I don't know if you know him, uh, he was an E7 teaching at Buds when the towers came down, transferred over the Army, put in for the 160th.

Speaker 5 And because of his background,

Speaker 5 we took him as a W-1, so as a very, very junior Shinook pilot. So I will tell you...

Speaker 3 Hold on, hold on. So,

Speaker 5 sorry.

Speaker 3 So you guys, so the 160th will take basically ground operators and turn them into aviators? Yeah. Very few.
Without any aviation operators.

Speaker 5 Very, very few, very select. So

Speaker 5 typically, a guy would, let's say he's a ranger, right? Army Ranger. He's E5.
He goes to his first unit, like I did in Savannah, Georgia, right?

Speaker 5 And they'll try to get somewhere like, you know, Fort Campbell so they can be in the 101st. They're just across the ramp from us.

Speaker 5 And then when their time comes up, like at two years, three years, when they think they've got enough experience, they'll submit a packet. If they get accepted, they come over.

Speaker 5 And I can tell you, there's a high number of Army Range, former Army Rangers that fly Chinooks on the 160th. And a lot of that, now you can't take a lot of them at one time, right?

Speaker 5 You can take one of these junior guys, like we said we could take two a year, you know, and be able to

Speaker 5 task force babies, we call them.

Speaker 3 How do they get through assessment?

Speaker 5 They just do.

Speaker 5 They're good enough.

Speaker 5 They're going to fail the navigation flight anyway.

Speaker 5 Do good in the PT test,

Speaker 5 psych assessment. They did well.

Speaker 5 If you can make E7 in the SEALs, you know, or in Delta. Yeah.
You've got some, we have your evaluation reports and all that. You have a history that we can look at and go.

Speaker 3 So these guys have had some flight

Speaker 5 they have obviously gone to flight school some guys have well yeah they've gone to flight school but you can take to a year of guys that were you know like i said you know mike was a an e7 in the seals you know and a couple of rangers you take them in and then you teach them from the ground up how to be a night stalker we call them task force babies and uh

Speaker 5 It turns out good because you've got plenty of other guys.

Speaker 5 You know, I was pure pilot, you know, so I don't have, you know, the ground guy experience, which when I got shot down was a, was a thing I worried about because it's like, I can shoot.

Speaker 5 I'm good with my rifle, but I don't know much about, you know, how somebody might flank me or the ground stuff. But yet the guys that were former Rangers or SF guys had a lot of green berets.

Speaker 5 You know, they knew that kind of stuff. So you always kind of like, if you could have a co-pilot that was once a former action guy, you know,

Speaker 5 be nice.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 5 So hold on.

Speaker 3 Let me, so these guys, so, so like Mike Rutledge, for example,

Speaker 3 I've met him.

Speaker 5 Uh,

Speaker 3 so he went from the SEAL teams to what, a Navy flight school?

Speaker 5 Nope, into Army flight school. So he did an inter-service transfer

Speaker 3 in a regular unit.

Speaker 5 He went straight to flight school, straight to Army flight school.

Speaker 3 So, so SEAL teams to straight to Army flight school,

Speaker 3 straight to assessment.

Speaker 5 Yep. Holy shit.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 That's pretty cool.

Speaker 5 Yeah. And, you know, it's not common, but it does happen.
You know, like I said, we kind of determine two guys a year we could handle, you know.

Speaker 3 Does the unit like that? Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yep.

Speaker 5 Because it gives you some diversity in,

Speaker 5 well, understanding the mission, right? And the idea here is that they understand the ground force mindset.

Speaker 5 They, you know, if they're a range, they know what the Rangers want, they know what the SEALs want, they know what what the Delta guys want, and not just by what they want.

Speaker 5 I know that just by working with them, but they understand the entire mindset and the personalities.

Speaker 5 Oftentimes, with Mike, for example, I was

Speaker 5 in Afghanistan one time with him and I was already there or I just got there and he rolled in about a week later and I took him with me over to Red Squadron because he knew

Speaker 5 We'd actually flown a mission one year where probably 20 of the 30 guys on board were at his wedding when he was a sailor.

Speaker 5 And they took turns coming to the cockpit.

Speaker 5 It was just a, you know, a reposition of them from fob to fob. And they came up and they look in the cockpit and they're like slap him on the shoulder.
He's like, oh, that was my best man.

Speaker 5 You know, that was my, you know, and it was really cool. So it gave you a little bit of the bona fides, you know, that

Speaker 3 some good camaraderie. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it was good.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 You know, that's some, I know we're getting off topic here a little bit, but that's something, you know, that I've always, ever since drones started coming on, you know, the scene, man, I'm showing my age.

Speaker 3 But,

Speaker 3 but,

Speaker 3 you know, it said

Speaker 3 I always, something that we always worried about was losing that personal connection with

Speaker 3 whoever's got us up top, you know. And,

Speaker 3 I mean, what do you think about that?

Speaker 5 It's tough. You know, I mean, I think back to, you know, several years ago, the original drone operator.
So to show my age, the original drones were not armed, except for the agency one, right?

Speaker 5 So the OGA drone was armed with a Hellfire, and all the other ISR was unarmed, right?

Speaker 5 And to be able to talk to them line of sight was a big deal, right? Because it was a repeater.

Speaker 5 Other than that, because they're back at, I don't know, back in Vegas or something flying these things.

Speaker 5 And so when they started arming these things and we started doing kinetic strikes with these, they were claiming PTSD and a lot of guys were getting mad saying, there's no way they could do that.

Speaker 5 Why are they mad or upset, you know, that they're killing people from a distance? And I remember thinking,

Speaker 5 there were certain times of the first part of the war where in Afghanistan in particular, we did not shoot back if somebody shot at us with the intention of using darkness.

Speaker 5 Like if the many guns fire, you're going to see for sure where we are. So maybe they don't see us, right? Because night vision goggles weren't as prolific back then.

Speaker 5 And I remember getting shot at a lot and feeling very vulnerable right because i mean i've got a you know soft armor i've got a little plate that's about this big you know and the air we took all the armor out of the aircraft in the early days so we could go to the higher elevations because it was too heavy and uh

Speaker 5 then one year must have been i don't know late 2002 maybe 2003 i said screw it Somebody shoots at me, he's going to eat lead.

Speaker 5 And I instructed the gunners, that's a hostile act. Somebody shoots at us, you kill them.

Speaker 5 And I made a big distinction: you don't engage, you kill them. You engage them, they duck their head.
You kill them, they can't, he's dead. And so I realized at some point I felt better

Speaker 5 being able to defend myself, right? So there's this like this equal thing: it's you know, them against me. You take a shot at me, I'm gonna take a shot back at you.

Speaker 5 And it's kind of like we both have an equal chance of dying. But the guy flying the drone, it's one way.

Speaker 5 It's very godlike. You know,

Speaker 5 you have the opportunity to kill somebody and he doesn't have the chance to reciprocate. It's kind of, I view that as

Speaker 5 maybe that is part of the, that post-traumatic stress is like they feel guilty, you know, that they can't die doing it, you know, but they can kill people. And I don't know if that's true.

Speaker 5 That's just how I interpret it. you know, but that personal connection is very important.
Like the 160th now has a drone unit that they didn't have when I was there.

Speaker 5 And once again, that's to create, number one, a capability, number two, that personal relationship.

Speaker 3 Yeah, you know, I mean, it's just

Speaker 3 meeting you guys before operations and

Speaker 3 other pilots. I mean, it just creates this personal connection where it's like, I know those guys down there, or I know those guys up there, but they just dropped me off, you know.
And

Speaker 3 that was always in our minds, you know, when

Speaker 3 when we started working with ISR and stuff like that.

Speaker 5 Anyways.

Speaker 5 With the air breathers, the Draco guys, right? The

Speaker 5 U-21s or whatever they were flying, C-12s, I guess, that had all the ISR platforms and they would

Speaker 5 do all the collection. They do all the, you know, as you're coming into the target, they give you a sit-wrap.

Speaker 5 You know, you got, you know, two sleepers on the roof, you know, three guys laying on the ground on the green side, you know, whatever. And you'd come in.
And in the early days,

Speaker 5 they did a terrible job. Like, I would be out in the Kandahar area, and we'd go land out in the middle, do an offset infill, and we're going to land in the middle of this poppy field.

Speaker 5 And the ISR comes back with, all good, nobody's there. And they're zoomed in on my coordinates where I'm going to land.
And I'd land, and it'd be like guys with guns just standing around.

Speaker 5 You know, they were guards for the poppy fields. They weren't, they didn't shoot at us, but they were armed.

Speaker 5 And I remember sitting down with these guys afterwards, the ISR guys, and say, hey, look, look at your video. And so when you scaled out and you saw me, did you see the guys with the guns?

Speaker 5 Well, yeah, but they didn't shoot at you. I'm like, but I don't want to land there if they're there.
Right. So we had to teach them what to do.

Speaker 5 And because they were at Bagram, you know, we'd start meeting with them a little more. And once I had that relationship with them,

Speaker 5 they knew what I wanted.

Speaker 5 I knew what they wanted, I knew what they needed, you know, and it works great.

Speaker 5 And that, you know, we were talking offline, and I'm sure we'll get to it during the Red Wings, you know, when I planned that whole operation, the fires plan was successful because I sat down with the actual pilots and the,

Speaker 5 you know, the sensor operators, you know, in the AC-130 and said, here's what I'm trying to accomplish. How can you help me do that?

Speaker 5 As opposed to me saying, you know, hey, I want this kind of ordinance here and this here. You know, they know what their stuff does, you know, but that's that relationship that you get.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 All right, where were we?

Speaker 3 Back to we were in the middle of you just got done with assessment, I believe.

Speaker 5 Yeah, all right, yeah. So I go back to my year,

Speaker 5 right? Except when I got there a week later, the battalion commander from 2nd Battalion, 160th, calls me and he's like, hey,

Speaker 5 Al,

Speaker 5 how would you like to come up in six weeks?

Speaker 5 And I'm like, well, sir,

Speaker 5 you guys told my commander it would be like a year. And he goes, yeah, well,

Speaker 5 we need you now because it takes, you know, eight months to put a guy through the Schnook pipeline.

Speaker 5 Can you do it? So I went and talked to my wife. Now, keep in mind, I lived in

Speaker 5 on-post housing at the time, so it was pretty easy to get out of there. But now I got to get a house up in Campbell.

Speaker 5 So I took leave, went up there house hunting for a week and bought a house or put a bid on the house, whatever. And I I came back.
And I remember the

Speaker 5 battalion commander at Fort Rutger was pissed. And he tried to call in all kinds of markers from generals and stuff that he knew to stop me from leaving, like, because he couldn't stop it.

Speaker 5 And I thought, for sure, he's going to stop me. And now he's mad at me.
And

Speaker 5 the one sick just said, nah, we need him. So they just sucked me up there.
Six weeks later, I'm in basic skills, learning hand-to-hand. You know, we're doing,

Speaker 5 that's the part I forgot.

Speaker 5 When you start in the training, you know, uh it's basic skills so it's you know first aid hand to hand you know cqb kind of stuff uh shooting at the time we still had mp5s uh we were just transitioning to the m4s like the next year but because of mogadishu you know they had mp5s and they found out that was insufficient for what we need right and it's one thing to clear a room with it but it's you know if you're going to defend a downed aircraft you don't want a pistol around

Speaker 5 and um but we were still learning on that which was pretty cool for me you know shooting silenced MP5s.

Speaker 5 And you do that, and then the enlisted guys at that point go on to log PT and ground navigation, stuff like that. And the pilots move on to the air navigation stuff.

Speaker 5 But, yeah, so I get up there and we start that.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 it's a lot of fun. And I really like that.

Speaker 3 What do you mean the enlisted guys?

Speaker 5 The crew chiefs. The crew chiefs? Well, I take that back.
Any night stalker who's not a pilot. So you could be the clerk.

Speaker 3 No, you should. So you guys train together? Yeah.
The pilots and the crew.

Speaker 3 That's pretty cool.

Speaker 5 And same thing with, I think when it was hand-to-hand, it was pilots and pilots and list of guys and list of guys. But

Speaker 5 like I had a guy, he played in the NFL, was my, I was the next biggest guy, right? But this guy was like a freaking,

Speaker 5 you know, he was like a mountain, you know? And so we're doing like, you know, practicing brachial stuns, you know. And

Speaker 5 so, you know, he's hitting me on the side of the neck, you know, boom. And I'm like, oh.

Speaker 5 And and I don't go down. And the instructor comes up and he goes, hit him harder.
I said, well, I don't want to hit him harder. He's like, hit him harder or I will, right? So the guy hits me harder.

Speaker 5 And of course, I drop. And he goes, harder than that.
And he's like, if I hit him harder than that, I'm going to knock his head across the room and he's going to be seriously hurt.

Speaker 5 We're not doing it, you know, because there's that whole mentality of, come on, you got to be tougher. You know, we're night stalkers, you know.
But this guy, you know, he knew his own strength.

Speaker 5 This guy, Mike was his name.

Speaker 5 He was actually out at the range he was a little bird guy attack guy barely I don't know how he fit in the aircraft and he got out and the rotor blade hit him in the head and it damaged the aircraft and his helmet and he walked away going

Speaker 5 wow like mongo you know and

Speaker 5 saddles

Speaker 5 but uh that was my cqb or not cqb my hand-to-hand guy but uh yeah so you do that and then you get out of the dunker which was in jacksonville at the time they have their own now it's an amazing uh so it's like a, imagine being in a, in a, in a minivan, and they drop you in a pool, and you're strapped in, and the thing rolls over and sinks, and then you've got to get out.

Speaker 5 You know, they, they do this training progression. First, it's get out any exit.
Then it's,

Speaker 5 you have to go out second behind the guy next to you, or you have to cross over, and they create some... some chaos in there, which if you use their training, not a big deal.

Speaker 5 You know, you just, you wait till the violent motion ceases, you get a reference, you unbuckle yourself, you know, you go out or you jettison the door, you're still buckled in, and then you put your hand outside, release the thing, and just pull yourself out.

Speaker 5 So if you do the training, it all works really well. But when you don't, the guys panic and they get stuck inside and the divers have to pull them out.

Speaker 3 Can you talk a little bit about the relationship between

Speaker 3 the crew chief and the pilots?

Speaker 5 Yeah. So in the Chinooks in particular, and the Blackhawks are very similar,

Speaker 5 the relationship with the crew chiefs,

Speaker 5 you get to know them quite well because

Speaker 5 you fly a lot together.

Speaker 5 In a Chinook, the minimum crew to fly a Chinook, a regular Chinook, is two pilots and a flight engineer. So the flight engineer is the senior crew chief in the back.

Speaker 5 In the 160th, a minimum crew is two pilots and two.

Speaker 5 Two crew chiefs, a flight engineer and a crew chief, is a guy in the back. And then when we're in combat, it's four.

Speaker 5 so you have a crew of six two pilots four guys in the back because you've got two guys man in the miniguns up front and two guys on the m240s in the back and then they have other duties that they do and

Speaker 5 you know you spend long long hours together whether it's training uh you know it could be a cross-country flight flying from campbell to california you know doing air refueling on the way and you know it's a eight-hour flight without landing.

Speaker 5 You're going to talk and talk and talk and you get to know each other. The other thing is, I always like to say that

Speaker 5 a good crew chief in the back can compensate for a bad pilot up front. So let's say you're going to land on a

Speaker 5 spur, a mountain spur, right?

Speaker 5 With an aft gear, you know, doing a little wheelie or landed with one wheel or something like that.

Speaker 5 If the pilot can't see anything, like you're looking down several thousand feet and there's nothing there.

Speaker 5 There's no reference to know that you're moving a foot or two, right, to keep the wheels on the terrain. but the crew chief's looking right at it and if he is good

Speaker 5 he can talk you through doing it you know it's like ho what you got you're you're starting to slide to the left a couple inches you know and you just you just little subtle movements of the controls and you listen to him as long as he stays calm you stay calm if you get a crew chief who

Speaker 5 gets kind of wound up really quick you know,

Speaker 5 it translates in the voice. And then the pilot gets kind of stiff on the controls because he's essentially following those instructions.

Speaker 5 So I like to say a guy who's up front who maybe isn't as good at doing that kind of maneuver, for example, if the crew chief's good, you know, he's got the right voice, the right technique, he'll keep you right there.

Speaker 5 And the customer of the ground force has no idea that, you know, this guy's having a tough night because the crew chiefs compensate.

Speaker 5 Sometimes a really good pilot can compensate for a crew chief in the back that isn't as good, you know, but

Speaker 5 There are limitations. You know, like I said, if you're a thousand feet out over the terrain and you got nothing to look at,

Speaker 5 all you can do is listen to them. Or maybe the other pilot can see something.
So that relationship is very, very important.

Speaker 3 How long do you guys spend with each other?

Speaker 5 Well, I mean,

Speaker 5 years.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 when we go on the road for training, for example,

Speaker 5 junior guys, junior pilots will room together. If you're a flight lead or officer in charge, you get your own room.
The crew chiefs, same thing. If you're a senior NCO, you'll get your own room.

Speaker 5 If not, you'll share. But

Speaker 5 after flying, we'll spend time together, you know, in the bar or at a picnic table or something.

Speaker 5 We get to know each other quite well.

Speaker 3 Is there a

Speaker 3 can you talk about a little bit about

Speaker 5 who's

Speaker 3 Man, I don't know how to say this, but who's is it the pilot that's ultimately in charge of the aircraft or is it the crew chief or how are they?

Speaker 5 Yeah, so the

Speaker 5 so the pilot, you have a pilot in charge, pilot in command, right, in the Army. Air Force calls him aircraft commander or AC.

Speaker 5 He's in charge of everything about that aircraft. So you might, I could be the pilot in command

Speaker 5 as a warrant officer, and I could have a colonel in the other seat. I'm in charge.
Right?

Speaker 5 He's doing what I tell him to do because that's the way it works.

Speaker 5 It's different if he's the air mission commander. He could be the overall air mission commander and he happens to be in my cockpit.
So now we're in a little bit of a gray area because

Speaker 5 I'm telling him what to do in the aircraft, but he's maybe telling me what to do in the overall mission.

Speaker 5 So it's a kind of a blend there.

Speaker 5 Where are we going with that? I said I went around the wrong way.

Speaker 3 Relationship between, well, now not relationship,

Speaker 3 basically responsibility.

Speaker 5 Responsibility for the aircraft, right? So when I was a junior pilot, there's a red line on the floor in a Chinook. It's like

Speaker 5 station 95, they call it, right? So every inch of an airframe is assigned a station, you know, one inch is station one or 001 or something like that, right?

Speaker 5 And as you go back, and that way you can say, you know, I've got a sheet metal crack, it's station 350, you know, butt line, whatever.

Speaker 5 And you can tell just by markings on the floor where this crack could be, right?

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 with a junior pilot and a senior crew chief, sometimes they'll say, you might

Speaker 5 mention something about the back, and they'll go,

Speaker 5 sir, you know, you're in front of station 95. Just, you know, keep your business up there, right? Yeah, whatever, you know.

Speaker 5 So there's that relationship where it can be, I mean, we're always busting each other's. butts, you know, but

Speaker 5 if you're a guy like me, right, and I had peer, you know, I do a lot of talking about, you know, I did this, I did this.

Speaker 5 There's always a crew involved, and in many cases, there's an aircraft or two or three behind me doing the same thing, right? So you've got to keep that in mind.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 the responsibility of the aircraft commander of the PIC is

Speaker 5 absolute. He is responsible for it.
So whether he's divided some authorities up to the crew chief in the back, you know, it's based on, you know, what's going on, right?

Speaker 5 So for example, fast roping right so we'll uh you know the pilot will find the target he'll come in he'll start his approach

Speaker 5 you get you know 50 60 feet out laterally from it and it's like the crew chief in the door will say you know uh target in sight forward 30 you know you come in you start listening to him they'll talk you in and then when you get over the target the crew chief and the fries masters will look down identify the landing area kick the ropes and that guy is pretty much in charge until he's done doing his thing.

Speaker 5 You know, I'm listening to him. He's like, you know, come left, come right, come up, come down, you know, stop, stick, you know, whatever is going on.

Speaker 5 And they have a lot of responsibility in the back, you know, and,

Speaker 5 you know, get the utmost respect for those guys, especially because they got no control of the aircraft ultimately because I do have the ultimate responsibility on what happens and they're going with me wherever I go.

Speaker 3 I mean, I would imagine that relationship has to be pretty tight

Speaker 3 with a lot of mutual respect.

Speaker 5 And if there's not,

Speaker 5 there can be a problem. So when I was in the conventional unit in Savannah, I had a friend.

Speaker 5 He had a terrible relationship with all the crew cheese. Like he just looked down on them, you know, and

Speaker 5 no matter who talked to him, he just, he treated them like crap. And they hated flying with him.
And we were coming back from California one time. We were getting gas.

Speaker 5 And we were taxied in.

Speaker 5 And the way a Chinook drives on the ground is you've got a little steering wheel by your back like this, and one of the wheels has a power steering actuator, and the aircraft will drive like a car, right, on the ground.

Speaker 5 And when you come into a parking area at an airport, depending on if you're close to airplanes or a hangar, you know, buildings, light poles, that kind of stuff, it's very important for the crew chief to say, sir, we're close to this.

Speaker 5 Let me dismount. And somebody will get out.
and they'll look at the rotor tips and make sure you are not going to hit whatever it is, right?

Speaker 5 The crew chief will always suggest that. I mean, the pilot might say, hey, this is going to be tight.
Can you get out? Crew chief will do it.

Speaker 5 But in this case, the crew chiefs knew he was too tight, did not offer to get out, and let him drive the aircraft right into a hangar. Right now, everybody was okay.

Speaker 5 The aircraft was severely damaged, the hangar was damaged, the accident board gets involved, the collateral board, and they find that the pilot had created such an

Speaker 5 a toxic relationship with the crew that they let him damage the aircraft on purpose. They didn't make him damage on purpose.
They let it happen. And so that's the extreme.

Speaker 5 And I've never seen that like in the 160th. The 160th is so professional that

Speaker 5 I really, I do miss it. You know, I don't miss flying so much.
I miss the people.

Speaker 3 You don't miss flying?

Speaker 5 Not in the way you'd think.

Speaker 5 I mean, every once in a while, I'll cross the George Washington Bridge in New York City, and it's the same view I would get when I was flying at West Point and come down the river.

Speaker 5 And on a nice day, I kind of be like, I kind of miss flying. What I really miss is the people and the mission.

Speaker 5 You know, as I like to say, you know, taking a bunch of pipe swingers to a bad guy's front door, that's rewarding. You know, I like doing that.

Speaker 5 I'll bet.

Speaker 5 I'll bet.

Speaker 3 What's the longest amount of time you've been paired with a crew chief?

Speaker 5 A couple of months, probably eight months. That's it.
Yeah. Oh, shit.
So what will happen is you'll go on a deployment, like say overseas, right?

Speaker 5 When you're back in the States, you just get who you get, right?

Speaker 5 Unless you're on a trip, like going out to the mountains or something, whatever duration of that trip is.

Speaker 5 But when you go to combat, you get assigned a pilot, your co-pilot, and your crew in an aircraft, an airframe, right?

Speaker 5 And however that deployment is, it might be a 60-day deployment. It might be a...
year-long deployment, you're with that crew and that aircraft the entire time. Okay.

Speaker 5 Yeah. So it's, you know, so the first couple of flights can be rough, you know, as you're feeling each other out.

Speaker 5 Like I flew because I was the, what's called an SIP, the standardization instructor pilot. So I was essentially the chief pilot for Chinooks and the 160.

Speaker 5 And I would fly with the different battalions, right? Because I had to fly. And the idea was to always be evaluating them to make sure they are holding the standard.

Speaker 5 You know, so if you're out at, you know, Savannah, are you doing things the same way as you're doing at Campbell? Because you better be. That's the standardization program.

Speaker 5 That way the customer knows he's getting the same support every single time, right? So I would deploy with them as well. And

Speaker 5 so I go with this third battalion crew. We got G-models now, which is the latest version of the aircraft.
And we're at a FARP forward arming and refueling point. And we're going to...

Speaker 5 It's in Assadabad, Afghanistan.

Speaker 5 We're going to come in, we're going to hover up to the point, we're going to set down next to it, and they're going to unplug a hose, plug it into the aircraft while we're running, and take gas called hot hot fuel.

Speaker 5 So we come in, I'm at a 10-foot hover, and Crushi says, all right, sir, come straight down. I come straight down.

Speaker 5 He goes, sir, can you move, pick it up again? Sure. I pick it up.
He goes, move forward three. Move three.
He's like, all right, go ahead and set it straight down. So I set it straight down.

Speaker 5 He's like, sir, can you pick it up again? I'm like, what the hell? He's like, I'm sorry. Everybody always drifts forward when they descend.
You actually come straight down.

Speaker 5 And I'm like, that's what they're supposed to be doing. But, you know,

Speaker 5 I am the chief Shanrakba. I should be the best or of the best.
I have peers, obviously, but I'm good.

Speaker 5 And these guys had never flown with me before, and they were just anticipating that I would drift forward like all the other guys did.

Speaker 5 And so as time went by, they just compensate, you know, for how I fly.

Speaker 3 Gotcha.

Speaker 5 And so maybe I don't come straight down. Maybe I am the drift guy.
You know, I drift forward as I come down. They just compensate for that.
They just bring you in three feet short. Have you come down?

Speaker 5 They know you're going to drift in and you land. So there's that relation, that habitual relationship and that, you know, understanding each other's capabilities.
Gotcha.

Speaker 5 You know, very, very important.

Speaker 3 Gotcha. All right, let's get back to training.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 So I don't, where were we?

Speaker 5 Where were we in training? So we worked on Green Platoon.

Speaker 5 What is Green Plato? Oh, so Green Platoon is where

Speaker 5 it's the training platoon for the 160th. So

Speaker 5 Green Team and OTC, you know, for the other

Speaker 5 special mission units.

Speaker 5 And it came about because, so at the 160th compound is a wall, a memorial wall with a lot of names on it. And I don't know the number.
I should.

Speaker 5 Most of the early days, 1980s, early 80s, those are all training deaths for the most part

Speaker 5 because they're developing tactics, techniques, and procedures that the Army later adopted. You know, how to use like

Speaker 5 night vision goggles, what are the limitations, when should you, when shouldn't you, kind of thing. And

Speaker 5 those names are on the wall, you know. And

Speaker 5 so

Speaker 5 there was too many in one year. I can't remember which year it was.

Speaker 5 And they,

Speaker 5 Congress shut down the unit. Right, they're like, you guys are killing people like every week, you know, kind of thing.
And they did a blue ribbon panel that evaluated the 160th and the way it worked.

Speaker 5 And they said, you know, the problem is not only are you developing new tactics and techniques, but you're training new guys that are coming into the unit. Right.

Speaker 5 So they said, you've got to have a dedicated part of your unit that only does training for the new guys. Or if people are transitioning to equipment, that's what they'll do.

Speaker 5 And so they created Grant Platoon, and it was a, you know, a godsend. It really is an amazing, you know, whoever really thought that through, you did a good job, you know, way back when.

Speaker 5 But that's what it's for. Right on.

Speaker 3 So it's an eight-month.

Speaker 5 It's different for every airframe. It takes eight months to get a Chinook guy through.

Speaker 5 So that's

Speaker 5 basic skills, you know, hand-to-hand shooting, that kind of stuff.

Speaker 5 Basic nav or B-nav, that's where you learn to fly and navigate in the little bird, to do things like a night stalker. And then you go to your specific aircraft.

Speaker 5 So even if you're a Chinook guy and you end up in Chinooks, there's so much

Speaker 5 expansion of what the aircraft can do because of the additional equipment that's embedded into the airframe, right?

Speaker 5 And you have to learn how to use all of that stuff and how to compensate when it doesn't work. So there's so, okay.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 you have totally different aircraft that's specific for 160th. What would be some of the things that are different between

Speaker 3 a

Speaker 3 conventional M-47 versus a TF-160? So

Speaker 5 when I talked earlier about the MH-6s or the MH-47, so Army aircraft are designated by what they do, right?

Speaker 5 CH, CH-47, right? Cargo helicopter, Model 47, version Delta, right?

Speaker 5 In this case, it's modified helicopter 47,

Speaker 5 you know, Echo at that time. And

Speaker 5 some of the equipment that's different, well, the big differences is the fuel tanks on the special ops version, the MH, is twice the capacity.

Speaker 5 So instead of a thousand gallons, you're carrying 2,000 gallons.

Speaker 5 There's internal fuel tanks that can fit inside that are crash-worthy and ballistically tolerant. There is an air refueling probe that sticks out the front.
I think if you look

Speaker 5 on the front of my book there, you get this big pipe that sticks out the front. You can fly up behind an Air Force C-130.

Speaker 5 They drag a hose out the back while you're flying, and it's got this donut-shaped parachute that you plug into and get gas in the air. So you have to learn all that.

Speaker 5 The crew chiefs have to learn gunnery. So you got these

Speaker 5 M134 miniguns, 762, six-barrel Gatlin gun, shoots 4,000 rounds a minute.

Speaker 5 They have to learn that, how to do it, how to deal with malfunctions.

Speaker 5 You've got terrain following radar, which is key.

Speaker 5 After 9-11, without that, we could not have done even half, even a fraction of what we did in those infills, getting the horse soldiers and the other Green Beret teams and the OGA teams because every SF team had to be brought in.

Speaker 5 to an OGA team that was there the day before or two days before. So that that's what all this equipment does and everything

Speaker 5 uh is a tv screen there's there's four tv screens and an echo and there's five and a golf and those five are splitable like you can you can divide them up so there's really ten displays and you have to learn how to use those and when to use them uh

Speaker 5 flying the helicopter itself is pretty much the same okay but using all of the tools of the trade. So you have to learn, number one,

Speaker 5 make sure you can fly the aircraft okay the way we want you to interact with the crew because you're also training the enlisted crew

Speaker 5 then we go into the special mission tasks like terrain falling radar we go to Knoxville fly in the mountains

Speaker 5 in the dark

Speaker 5 the pilot will flip his MVGs up so he can't really see out the window it's no moon out it's dark and he's following the the terrain falling radar cues and the other pilot as a safety pilot if you will the instructor has his goggles down so if if the guy misinterprets the cues and is going to fly into something you know he can just take the controls i have the controls it's just that simple you just i have the controls and then you say what what's wrong but you get that air refueling you got to teach the guy how to do that that's high adventure sometimes and so once they learn to do the aircraft the equipment now we have to learn how to utilize it in the environment And the cool thing with the 160th is that a conventional unit doesn't do is we've got money for TDY, right?

Speaker 5 So you take the students

Speaker 5 from Campbell, like so we go to Knoxville for the train flight. Then you, you know, wherever the tankers are, you're going to go there for the air refueling.

Speaker 5 So sometimes the Air Force or the Marines will send a tanker to us, and sometimes you've got to go to them, which might be Dallas or the Houston area, that kind of stuff.

Speaker 5 Or you travel somewhere and they'll come, you know, you hit a tanker en route.

Speaker 5 And then once you've done those things, you go Desert Mountain, we go to Albuquerque, and you're out there for like three weeks learning to just land in the dust for real and then learn how to fly in the mountains power management how to

Speaker 5 how to read the wind in the mountains and how to come in from a certain direction it's like parachute jumping you have to learn you know how to land in a certain way and then

Speaker 5 everything we did before we did it in the aircraft we did it in the flight simulator which was very realistic right so you would teach them how to do uh the hover page right so there's this on the little tv screen there's there's a little video game you play.

Speaker 5 There's a crosshair in the middle. There's an open circle and a line, and you try to keep the open circle over the crosshairs.

Speaker 5 And if you're moving, that line gets longer in the direction of movement, right? And so you've got to look at that and interpret it to keep the aircraft in whatever, let's say, a stationary hover.

Speaker 5 You've got to keep all of those little cues on top of that little crosshair. So you can't see out the window at all.
You're either in the dust and snow, whatever it is, and

Speaker 5 you move the cyclic stick to keep that where it is, like a little video game. And then the crew chief might be able to see straight down, right?

Speaker 5 He might be able to see it, not be able to see out, but oftentimes they can see the ground right below you, depending on your altitude.

Speaker 5 And they, you know, they'll be like, all right, sir, you know, you're 10 feet off, and you're confirming that up front with the instrumentation. You've got it steady.

Speaker 5 And like, you know, come down, you know, and you just come down, and it can be a challenge, you know, to say the least, to land in the dust.

Speaker 3 I'll bet. All but

Speaker 3 So you graduate. Yep.
Obviously.

Speaker 5 Yep. Yep.
So we did that. You graduate.

Speaker 5 When you graduate Green Platoon, you are probably, well, back during the height of the OEF and OIF, you are going to deploy probably in two weeks, maybe less.

Speaker 3 When did you graduate? What year?

Speaker 5 So I graduated in 95

Speaker 5 and there was nothing going on.

Speaker 5 So it was all training back then. And training trips,

Speaker 5 people asked me, you know, what was it like pre-911 and the 160 thought it was great you know because everywhere we went was you know four or five star you know you go to Colorado to do mountain flying we're staying in condos you know

Speaker 5 or at least a nice hotel you know the double tree we didn't have any tents you know so

Speaker 5 we were destined one time working with AC-130s

Speaker 5 we had three aircraft there

Speaker 5 two of them flew per night and we were we were flying you know guys in they would call for fire and then we'd come pick them up that kind of stuff and the other crew was really a spare you know so we

Speaker 5 you have to keep the flight hours within a

Speaker 5 certain parameter to keep the aircraft flying right so it's like an oil change you know that well you know another 100 miles i'm gonna have to do an oil change except you're gonna have to do it right they're gonna make you do it by regulation right so you keep track of the oil changes if you will and every hour you fly ticks off on this your oil change if you will and so you know if you've got one down for the night doing maintenance to schedule what we call scheduled maintenance the oil change, the other two can go fly.

Speaker 5 And if you're not working on it and one of them breaks, that's a spare. You just take it, you go to your thing.
And now we have not affected the ground force in any way, right? That's a goal.

Speaker 5 But anyway, we're out to show you this is pre-9-11.

Speaker 5 So two of us are out flying, the aircraft breaks, and they fly back to Hurlbert Field to, they're done for the night, right? Ah, we can't fix this tonight. We go back.
They hook up.

Speaker 5 We're in Destin is our hotel is at the Sheraton on the beach. And the person not flying, that crew is responsible for getting, you know, beverages,

Speaker 5 bait, like we had gotten some Zebco fishing reels at the PX or the BX.

Speaker 5 And you had everything ready. And guys would come back from flying and we'd spend the night on the beach fishing off in the surf, right, and drinking beer.

Speaker 5 That's pre-9-11 if you weren't actually doing some missions. And I come back one night.
that night I'm talking about, and because it's two crews now, they're all drunk.

Speaker 5 And I come up, I'm like the only, I'm like the adult leader in the group. They're out in the water, the pilots, they're up to their neck with fishing rods, right? Surf casting.

Speaker 5 And the waves had slowly walked them out. You know, like they start a waist high and they end up at the neck.
And I was like a Boy Scout leader. I was like, all right, everybody, buddy up.
Like, what?

Speaker 5 I said, hold hands with the guy next to you. I want to count heads, right? So I kind of was like, get in here, right? And they're like, all right, we're coming, you know.
But that was pre-9/11.

Speaker 5 9-11 happens.

Speaker 5 You know, you still get some nice trips, but it's not like that.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 5 You know, but where I really was going with that is the

Speaker 5 ability to take the guys to the actual environment. So we're going to go learn to land in the dust for real.

Speaker 5 Usually when you get there, the lake beds are dry crust, you know, and there's no dust.

Speaker 5 So I remember I took these guys out one time and I start driving the aircraft around on four wheels and I'm breaking up the crust. What are you doing? It's going to get dusty.

Speaker 5 I'm like, that's the point of this. We're not out here to pretend we're dust landing.
We're going to dust land.

Speaker 5 And And then you go up to the mountains, you wear an oxygen, which turned out to be important in Afghanistan.

Speaker 5 Things like that, you know, and that's what we do. So when you get back from Green Platoon

Speaker 5 pre-9-11, you would go places, you know, Fort Bragg, you'd enter Fort Benning, work with the Rangers, go out to Coronado, work with the SEALs, out to Little Creek, and

Speaker 5 you just do whatever they needed, you know, oil platform takedowns, you know, VBSS, something like that. And

Speaker 5 once the war started, you know,

Speaker 5 that training became less and less because we needed airframes overseas, right? So it was tougher to get that realistic training in, or you had to learn to

Speaker 5 mix it in. You know, it's like if you're going to go out to the compound at Bragg, you know, what can you do on the way out?

Speaker 5 You know, we would link up with the A-10s out of Pope when they were still there. And on the way in, we'd link up with them and do a personnel recovery mission.

Speaker 5 Which I got a good one in the book there where

Speaker 5 I dusted out some farmer. You know,

Speaker 5 the pilot, the down pilot was there, and the A-10s are doing their

Speaker 5 passes.

Speaker 5 And the farmer had just limed the field with his tractor. And he's just sitting there watching.
You know, the A-10s do their thing. And I come in with a Chinook and I land right next to him.

Speaker 5 And it's a big cloud of dust and farm talc. I don't know what poison, I guess.
I don't know. Fertilizer.

Speaker 5 I thought I was in trouble. We get to brag.
I talk to the Air Force guy. He gives me the farmer's phone number.
I call him. I'm like, hey, I apologize.
I'm so sorry. And he's like, are you kidding me?

Speaker 5 He goes, that was amazing. He goes, you do that anytime you want.
He says, but make sure I'm out there because I want to watch it.

Speaker 5 All right.

Speaker 3 There we go. That's awesome.

Speaker 5 But anyway, that's the training is very realistic. And

Speaker 5 the margin for safety is interesting because you know the the 160th because we killed so many people in the early days had a reputation of being cowboys oh the 160th guys they're gonna just ignore all the rules and do whatever well

Speaker 5 now we're inventing new rules you know and it's how you progress you know and unfortunately it was progressed in the the blood of of night stalkers but that reputation is still there you know and i remember teaching a couple of grand platoon classes where guys would come in and i would say okay we're not going to do this tonight because, you know, maybe the weather is such and such or we've got

Speaker 5 some parameter that's kind of iffy. And I actually, a couple of occasions have had guys say,

Speaker 5 well, I thought we would just do whatever it took. And it's like, well, maybe on a combat mission, you know, or national, something of strategic importance, national importance, but we're training.

Speaker 5 We're not going to kill somebody.

Speaker 5 you know, just to go out. We'll just do it tomorrow night, you know, kind of thing.

Speaker 5 So the rules are very important to us as well.

Speaker 3 What did it feel like when you graduated?

Speaker 5 It felt good. I'll bet.
You know, you felt you really,

Speaker 5 you've really done something, you know, and it's what I want to do. You do that.

Speaker 3 And when you graduate, you're one of the best helicopter pilots in the world.

Speaker 5 I'd like to think so, you know. And as the time goes by, when you get better in the unit, like, I mean, you could be a senior guy, like a CW-4, but a junior pilot.
You're taking out the trash,

Speaker 5 you're filling the fridge, that kind of stuff. You got to pay your penance because someone's got to do it.
And the other guys are doing important things.

Speaker 5 I lived my life

Speaker 5 watching the news, like the 24-hour news cycle. Something came on CNN back when it was reliable.

Speaker 5 You look at it and go, oh.

Speaker 5 Something's happening in Khartoum. That's happening in Belize.
You know, the ambassador in this place might be trouble.

Speaker 5 And I would go into work i'd get into the high side stuff i'd research the situation i'd research the country and i'd start preliminary plans for how to operate there because there were many times i got called in uh

Speaker 5 trying to think the country in south america every year i'd get called to go get the ambassador and they'd smooth things over and we didn't have to

Speaker 5 but

Speaker 5 you live your life on the news because you could be going somewhere. I mean, look what happened on October 7th, right?

Speaker 5 With Israel. Those guys were on the road, you know, within hours.
Yeah. You know?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Not that I know anything about that, but, you know.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Well, let's take a break, and when we come back, we'll start getting into similar combat operations.

Speaker 5 Sure. Perfect.

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Speaker 3 All right, Alan, we're back from the break. We've covered your childhood.
We've covered the beginning of your military career, your assessment into TF-160, and

Speaker 3 now we're getting into your combat operations.

Speaker 3 Let's move into

Speaker 3 post-9-11.

Speaker 3 All right. Actually, let's move.
Let's just go into 9-11.

Speaker 5 All right.

Speaker 3 What were you doing when that happened?

Speaker 5 So 9-11, I was in

Speaker 5 a mission in

Speaker 5 JRTC, right? The Joint Readiness Training Center down in Fort Polk, Louisiana. I was actually infilling a MariOps team, a maritime team from 5th Group.

Speaker 5 And they would, I put them in a riverine operation. They linked up with a special boat unit out of the Navy, and they go do their thing, right? So I come back,

Speaker 5 take a shower, go to bed, the sun comes up. And I hear guys in the barracks.
Now, the barracks, it's one of those National Guard buildings.

Speaker 5 You know, it's cinder block walls, hard tile floors, you know, that kind of stuff. So every noise at one end gets all the way down to the other end, right?

Speaker 5 So even if you try to be quiet, these guys were like, holy crap, look at that. Did you see that? And I'm like, ugh.
And I knew that

Speaker 5 our other company, A company, was on their way to Europe to do a joint readiness exercise.

Speaker 5 And we always said that, you know, One of those flights is going to be real and when it happens, it's going to be spectacular, right? The whole operation i'm like

Speaker 5 damn it those guys did something you know like you always want to be on the big operation and i thought you know the other company had just done it so i get up i turn on the tv

Speaker 5 and that's not what i saw at all what i saw was one of the you know trade center towers was burning

Speaker 5 and i remember thinking oh somebody's in trouble you know safety-wise aviation safety you know you get laguardia jfk new work there somebody screwed up and

Speaker 5 so

Speaker 5 I got it on brew up a pot of coffee in my room and I'm looking at it have my first you know sip of coffee and

Speaker 5 in comes another plane it's like

Speaker 5 this is no accident this is an attack

Speaker 5 and I remember getting everybody up you know hey we're gonna be doing something I mean, not like we were going to jump in the helicopters and do something, but we're going to have to get back to Fort Campbell.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 it was something because I go down to the end of the hall, and there's two guys that have been out, you know, they were shot down, all right. And they're doing an E that night, escape and invasion.

Speaker 5 And so they just come in. They were miserable from walking around in the swamps, you know, until they got rescued.
And I'm like, get up, we're under attack. And they're like, screw you.

Speaker 5 They wouldn't open their doors. I was like, no, really? I'm not talking about the op four.
I'm talking about somebody is attacking us. They opened the door, showed them the TV, and I go, oh, wow.

Speaker 5 So I had just taken a position.

Speaker 5 So I was a flight lead, right? So what that is in the 160th is you are one of very few tracked actually by the Secretary of Defense's office

Speaker 5 on how many there are of us. And

Speaker 5 in our company, there's two.

Speaker 5 And I just got... promoted, if you will, out of the company level where I was the chief pilot, the flight lead, and moved to battalion.
So across the street, right?

Speaker 5 They always talk about, you know, oh, you got to go across the street to the headquarters, right? Because it's literally across the road. And

Speaker 5 what stunk about it is now

Speaker 5 when B Company goes, technically, I don't have to go because I work for the battalion commander now, not the company commander. Luckily, they needed a second flight lead, and I ended up with them.

Speaker 5 But with that being said,

Speaker 5 The entire national airspace system was shut down after 9-11, right?

Speaker 5 So, you know, had fighters overhead, AWACS, that kind of stuff, but no commercial air travel, no military travel other than fighters.

Speaker 5 And so we rented a car, the battalion commander and I, and we drove back to Fort Campbell. I think it was a 10, 11-hour drive.

Speaker 5 And we're just hungry for information because remember, cell phones back then were real phones, right? They weren't smartphones.

Speaker 5 So we were finding radio stations on the AM radio and we're listening to the press briefings and stuff. And it's like, wow,

Speaker 5 this is something. And so we get back to Fort Campbell.
We get a, you know, now we can get down in the skiff, find out what is going on.

Speaker 5 And the next day, we were headed to Tampa, you know, in a 15-passenger van, me and a couple planners. Didn't really know what was going to happen.

Speaker 5 And I don't know, that's a 15-hour drive or something like that. And we drove down.
The guys were still stuck at, you know, JRTC waiting to come back up.

Speaker 5 So we had to Tampa. And a funny story there, right? So now the base is locked down, MacDill, right? And we got to get to Soxent headquarters.

Speaker 5 And the line to get in the gate has got to be five, six miles long, right? And we can't, no one's going to let you in. So we drive around and there's a gate with nobody at it, but it's open.

Speaker 5 There's a guard there. And we pull up and say, hey, we need to get in.
And they're like, sorry, sir, emergencies only, you know, official bit, whatever. So

Speaker 5 we start driving back. And I happened to have a guy, our intel officer was also a CI officer, and he had a badge.
And that badge had a little placard with it that said something like, You know,

Speaker 5 if the bearer of this badge is doing whatever national security, you know, afford him all courtesies or something along those lines, right? And I said, Jerry,

Speaker 5 get your badge out. He's like, Al, I'm not, I can't, they'll take my badge away if I use it for something.
I'm like, dude, we just kind of attacked.

Speaker 5 So, we drive back through. He flashes the badge, he let us right in, right? And that was always a funny story with

Speaker 5 he and I is that he was afraid to use his badge for 9-11. So anyway, we get in there, and

Speaker 5 we're not really sure what is going to happen. We know we're going to Afghanistan, like that the target is in Afghanistan.

Speaker 5 But we're bouncing between the 3rd Battalion and the 2nd Battalion going because B Company 2nd Battalion had just divided in two and sent six of its Chinooks to Korea to work in PACOM.

Speaker 5 So that company really wasn't big enough to do anything anymore, right? And they were always talking about integrating it with the other company, just making it a bigger company.

Speaker 5 But our area of expertise was the Middle East. All of the other units didn't have the same expertise that we had because we had done

Speaker 5 two years before that, two years in a row, we'd been to Kuwait with the intention of going into Iraq

Speaker 5 during Desert, Operation Desert Thunder and Desert

Speaker 5 Fox, right? They're separate things.

Speaker 5 He kicked the UN inspectors out. So we were there seven months at a pop, flying every night, doing air refueling, dust landings.

Speaker 5 So we were really good at operating in the dust and air refueling in the desert.

Speaker 5 So, but now we're shrunk down a little bit, and we don't know if we're going to be able to do anything. So they're going to send us, like me and my guys, to Egypt for Operation Bright Star.

Speaker 5 which is a big training exercise in Egypt, right?

Speaker 5 And 3rd Battalion will go to Uzbekistan and go into Afghanistan. Except

Speaker 5 things keep going around a little bit. It's like, you know what? 3rd Battalion would be better off going to Egypt.

Speaker 5 We'll take the Echo models up to Uzbekistan because of the terrain falling radar and some of the things that the older aircraft that 3rd Battalion had

Speaker 5 didn't have installed. They had air refueling capability.
The aircraft looks the same on the outside, but it's not nearly the same aircraft. So

Speaker 5 we end up getting the mission. So I plan it.
I'm on the phone. and this is so secret, even on the secure line, I'm not allowed to talk about it because the phone's not a high enough classification.

Speaker 5 So the guys had just got back from

Speaker 5 GRTC. They got to fly back, and I'm calling up there going, Hey, you need to pull.
We're like talking around this on a secure phone.

Speaker 5 You know, hey, I need you to pull, you know, digital maps for, you know, maybe, remember that movie, Spies Like Us? You know, kind of that area, you know, Duchamp.

Speaker 5 And so he understood, and he got those maps pulled and we started planning it.

Speaker 5 And then we end up back at Campbell, which is funny because Operation Enduring Freedom was actually started as Operation Infinite Justice.

Speaker 5 And we got rid of the Riot Act. You don't tell anybody about this, nothing, no talking about it.

Speaker 5 So we're going home. And on the way home, Donald Rumsfeld is doing a press conference and he says,

Speaker 5 Operation Infinite Justice is in motion.

Speaker 5 We're like, what the hell?

Speaker 5 So So they changed the name. But

Speaker 5 so we get back, and here's what the real challenge is, right? Remember I said earlier that there's always room for one more ranger.

Speaker 5 At sea level, in a Chinook, if you can put something inside it, you can fly with it, right? You just can.

Speaker 5 When you start doing external loads, you can get stuff that's too heavy. But now we're talking about flying to these mountains that are 20, 22,000 feet.
And it isn't just the altitude,

Speaker 5 It's the distance, right? So in order to get over a mountain, you might have to be a certain weight. So let's say I can carry 20 guys, right?

Speaker 5 And the gas that, so I cut the gas down to make weight, if you will, to get over the mountain. But then I don't have them enough gas to get where I'm going or to get home, right?

Speaker 5 So it's always this big math problem of how many people you can take versus how much gas, how much time you can give them on the objective before you can pick them up, you know, all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 5 So we're doing this and the math isn't working out. We're like, we can't get where we've got to go with what we should be carrying.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 what we didn't know was that 5th group, 5th Special Forces Group, was in a room right next to me in Tampa. planning what they call a UW campaign, unconventional warfare.

Speaker 5 That's the whole horse soldier thing, right?

Speaker 5 Except they thought I could just take them anywhere they wanted to go.

Speaker 5 And I didn't know they were doing that. I was just planning for personnel recovery.
So if the bombers got shot down, a fighter, I would go rescue them, that kind of thing.

Speaker 5 So the other company comes in, you know, their lead planner, and he looks at our whiteboard of

Speaker 5 essentially a table of what we could remove from the aircraft with weight to try to compensate for this. We took all the armor out.

Speaker 5 We took extra equipment out that was, you know, extra fire extinguishers, things like that, gone.

Speaker 5 And they had the same calculations. And we're all like, oh, it's nice to see that we separately came up with the same conclusion.
You almost can't go anywhere, right, without some major concessions.

Speaker 5 So then we end up going to

Speaker 5 Uzbekistan, a place called K2, Karshi Kanabad.

Speaker 5 Uzbekistan is just to the north of Afghanistan. And that's a former Soviet republic, and we're going to operate out of that base with four Chinooks and two DAPs.

Speaker 5 The DAPs I talked about earlier, direct action penetrators, the Armed Blackhawks. They're going to be our gun support, if you will.

Speaker 5 We don't have anything else. This is early in the game, right?

Speaker 5 I mean, when you consider a battle now, you know, you get battle tracking and beacons, you know where everybody is, and you can see everything, and you've got a stack above you of support.

Speaker 5 There was nothing.

Speaker 5 And so here we are, as soon as we built up the first two Chinooks, the bombing campaign started. And originally, we wanted all four built up because we wanted two teams of two.

Speaker 5 Because if something happens to the first team of two, the other two has got to either help them or help whatever they were doing. And SECDAF said, nope, as soon as the first two were done, start.

Speaker 5 So they started bombing right away. And then we got the other two built up.
Luckily, we didn't have anybody go down. And that went on for about two weeks.
And then fifth group rolls in.

Speaker 5 And we changed over from an Air Force Colonel being in charge of us to a Green Beret Colonel, the 5th Group Commander, John Mulholland.

Speaker 5 Great guy, by the way. And he comes in.
He's like, can you give me a brief on what you can do with the helicopters? And we kind of show him, and he's kind of perplexed.

Speaker 5 He said, what's the matter, sir? And he's like, so you mean you can't just take an ODA

Speaker 5 team from here to here?

Speaker 5 No, sir.

Speaker 5 Not happening. You can't get over these mountains without weight.
Or if you do, you're going to run out of gas halfway there or something like that.

Speaker 5 And he's like, Oh, I wish somebody had told me this, you know, like three weeks ago. And I was like, What do you mean? And then we found out we were all in the same planning area.

Speaker 5 It's like, because they were falling under the old isolation rules. I think Cold War, ISOFAC, you know, don't tell the pilots where you're going because if they're captured, they'll tell.

Speaker 5 And it's like, well, in this case, you kind of, you're counting on me to be able to even do it. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And so

Speaker 5 we figured it out. We had to make some concessions on weight.
Like I said, I can only carry like half a team. So I can carry six guys and their equipment.

Speaker 5 And their equipment's limited to like 3,000 pounds. So we made the ODAs put their gear, all their personal gear, all their team gear, on a 463L pallet on aircraft scales.

Speaker 5 And if it was over, it's like,

Speaker 5 get rid of 30 pounds. Oh, come on, 30 pounds.

Speaker 5 Get rid of her. You're not going.

Speaker 5 Fine. And they'd lose batteries or water or something.

Speaker 5 you know they give me supply later but that's how strict we were on the math and

Speaker 5 then we had this political problem

Speaker 5 when

Speaker 5 ahmed massoud died right he was the head of the northern alliance he was assassinated the day before 9-11 i believe right by al-Qaeda so that we would not have a reliable

Speaker 5 ally right and he was very charismatic everybody loved him He was in charge of all the other warlords. They were subservient to him.
And Al-Qaeda blows him up with a fake film crew.

Speaker 5 His second in command is a guy named Fahim Khan.

Speaker 5 He's a jerk. Nobody likes him, but he's in charge of

Speaker 5 the thing now. And the third guy is General Rashid Dostam, who those two hate each other, right? They're in different locations.

Speaker 5 So Fahim says to the U.S. government,

Speaker 5 if I don't get my green berets first, I will attack Dostum. And you can

Speaker 5 throw your alliance out the window.

Speaker 5 so we are in two teams of two my buddy arlo has to take one of my aircraft actually so he's a team of three i'm a team of one so i can't go anywhere we're not going anywhere single ship and

Speaker 5 they take off

Speaker 5 they reach the border the weather is terrible the mountains are 21 000 feet tall and they got to turn around they got to abort right they can't get through

Speaker 5 So they come back, which means that my mission, which is the next night, just rolled 24 hours, right? And I was afraid.

Speaker 5 I was a terrible teammate, by the way, because I was afraid that Arlo would get his guys in and then the SecDef would go, you know what, it's too hard. It's not worth the risk.
No more infills.

Speaker 5 And then, you know, I'd have to listen for 30 years for this guy talking about his mission. Like, he has to listen now to me.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 so he goes the next night. Same thing happens.
turns around

Speaker 5 except now I'm rolled 24 again right another 24 hours before i can take my guys in and i'm pissed and i meet him in the in the playing area where he comes in the door he's like white he almost died right they're at 20 000 feet can't see out the windows and they're doing a pedal turn on the hover page and i mean they're lucky they did it and i'm like what the hell man and he's like dude you have no idea what the weather was like i'm like

Speaker 5 you know use this use that what are you doing you know and we got in a shoving match like i'm calling him you know all kinds of bad words and he's you know, reciprocating and that.

Speaker 5 Now, Arlo's a little bit bigger than me. We're about the same height, but he's bigger.
I mean, he would kick my butt.

Speaker 5 But I'm mad, and I'm pushing him. And somebody gets in the middle of us, and I'm like, gentlemen, no fighting in the war room.
You know, it's a line from Dr. Strangelove

Speaker 5 movie. But anyway,

Speaker 5 all right, we're going to roll again.

Speaker 5 Go to bed, daytime.

Speaker 5 Phone rings, unbeknownst to me, in the planning area, and the major that's on the day shift answers the phone. And a woman on the other end says, Is this the TF Dagger Opsen? And he's like, Yes.

Speaker 5 And she goes, Please hold for the secretary. He's like, Secretary?

Speaker 5 This is Donald Rumsfeld. Who am I talking to? And it's just this major, we'll call him Mark, the Major Mark.

Speaker 5 He's like, What can I do for you, sir? And he's like, You tell Moholland, you get those teams in tonight, or else both of them clicked.

Speaker 5 We don't know about this until like the next day.

Speaker 5 So we get up, come in, have our coffee. I'm expecting to see Arlo go do his thing, and I'm just going to sit here and wonder if he's going to make it.
And they say, Oh, you're going tonight.

Speaker 5 Like, what do you mean? I go, He's got my other helicopter. He's like, You're going to have to take everybody in one.

Speaker 5 But I can't take everybody in one. He goes, Yeah, you can if you if you do air refueling in and out.

Speaker 5 Okay,

Speaker 5 right. Uh, they said the only

Speaker 5 uh caveat is you can't touch down before the other flight. Like, Fahim has to get his guys so he can say, I got the first Americans,

Speaker 5 and Dostum can have his 30 minutes later. So, we had to coordinate timing.

Speaker 5 So, even though I took off and was making a time, if these guys got delayed, I had to back off to make sure that Fahim got his guys first, right? So, this is me with

Speaker 5 the entire ODA 595 in my aircraft. I have very little fuel now because I've got to hit a tanker tanker on the way in.
I'll do my mission.

Speaker 5 I'll come back out and I got to hit a tanker again to get gas and air to make it home. And

Speaker 5 they didn't want me to fly a single ship because there's nothing overhead. The sat at the time, the satellite communications was a low-angle bird and the mountains blocked it.

Speaker 5 So unless you were above the mountains or had a certain angle, you couldn't talk. So I would be alone in Afghanistan, right? So they sent the DAPs with me.
that aren't Blackhawks.

Speaker 5 Problem is, they can go most of the way, you know, and then the mountains are going to get too big and they're going to have to hang out.

Speaker 5 It's like the B-17 bombers going into Germany in the early days, and the fighters could only go so far. It's like, see, yeah, you know, we'll see you when you come back, you know.
And

Speaker 5 so we're flying along,

Speaker 5 and I've got the battalion commander in my jump seat. So the jump seat, I sit in the left seat, my co-pilot's in the right seat, and the jump seat is just between and behind us a little bit.

Speaker 5 Like I could tap his knee kind of thing.

Speaker 5 And we're flying along. The weather is terrible.
We get our gas. We cross the border.
My heart's about to jump out of my chest. I'm like, you know, we're in Afghanistan.

Speaker 5 And my heart's like, bump, boom, boom.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 we run into a sandstorm several thousand feet thick, just like the Eagle Claw mission, actually.

Speaker 5 And you can't see out past the probe, the refuel probe. There's like St.
Almost fire on it, you know, like little sparks. And the daps are in tight.
We're at about 200 feet.

Speaker 5 above the ground, flying across the northern dunes, and they're tucked in tight. And they can't see me.
They can't see the helicopter.

Speaker 5 What they can see with their night vision goggles is the glow of my engines, right? So there's two engines.

Speaker 5 As I pull in, power, my co-pilot pulls in power, the engine gets hotter, so the glow gets bigger, and they know they're climbing. The glow gets smaller, they know we're descending.

Speaker 5 Brave men to be able to do that, highly capable. to even come close to doing it as long as they did.
And they eventually, they cried, uncle, they turn around. Like, hey, we got to abort.

Speaker 5 We cannot do this.

Speaker 5 All right.

Speaker 5 Because we always say, you know,

Speaker 5 with surface-to-air missiles and other anti-aircraft weapons, every munition has a PK, a probable kill ratio. So if you fire a SA-7 at an aircraft, you have a PK of 75%.

Speaker 5 I'm just pulling that out of my butt. So 75% chance of a lethal kill.

Speaker 5 We say the ground has a PK of 100%.

Speaker 5 So here we are in the mountains in the clouds, and they just, they can't see. They can't see the mountains.
They can't see me now, other than the glow of my engines, which is insane.

Speaker 5 And though they've got big balls, it's not going to keep them alive if they hit the mountain. So they turn around.

Speaker 5 So now I'm thinking, oh, there's no way they're going to let me continue by myself. But I didn't know about the Rumsfeld phone call.

Speaker 5 And the colonel says, Al, what do you think? And I said, sir, I think we just TF, which is terrain falling radar. Never been done before in our aircraft for real.
We train with it.

Speaker 5 I think I talked about it earlier with the green platoon stuff.

Speaker 5 He goes, execute.

Speaker 5 Push the button. It's like, Jethro, follow your Q, 300-foot clearance altitude.

Speaker 5 Off we go. And we are using the terrain falling radar for the first time in real life.
Now, we've done it in the simulator and we've practiced it, but we've never done it where you couldn't see out.

Speaker 5 No, no kidding really couldn't see out the window. No shit.

Speaker 5 It took a general officer in training. like the USASAC commander had to approve flying without being able to see, and it had to be on what's called a military training route.

Speaker 5 So in order order to get the training route reserved, the two-star general to approve, and bad enough weather to go, but not so bad you can't go, it just never lined up, right? So we couldn't do it.

Speaker 5 So here we are doing it, and we make our first turn,

Speaker 5 and we get what's called a full climb command. So the aircraft sees something ahead of us that it can't climb over because we didn't plan to do this.
I'm planning on going around everything.

Speaker 5 But the aircraft, the radar doesn't know that. And then the damn thing reboots, right?

Speaker 5 So you ever had your computer, you had to control alt delete or your phone had to be rebooted because it's a computer. Well, the radar is a computer.

Speaker 5 And part of the reason there was all that, you know, the two-star general is because the damn thing would do that. The darndest times, it would just

Speaker 5 go into its reboot cycle. And you'd have to figure out what was wrong and get it back, right? In the meantime, all you can do is climb like your life depends on it because it does.

Speaker 5 And so, my co-pilot, he slows back to best climb airspeeds, about 80 knots. He's got the power pulled into his armpits.
We are climbing at about 4,000 feet a minute.

Speaker 5 I mean, we are just climbing like a raped ape.

Speaker 5 And I have no idea what's in front of us. The radar isn't showing me, right? So, it's actually the radar will show you about 10 miles out, and it was something that was about 20 miles out.

Speaker 5 It was a mountain that was too big for us to go over. And I figured that out by scrolling through the maps, like if digital map on the little TV screens, the MFDs.

Speaker 5 So, I'm scrolling through, trying to find a map scale that will be useful to me. And I find one and it's like, ah, it's a mountain right here.
I get the radar back. So

Speaker 5 there's different ways to give direction cues to the pilot. So I give him a heading cue.
I say, follow that cue. He does it.
We descend because the mountain's now off to the side. We get around it.

Speaker 5 and we rejoin the course and we're on our way right first lesson learned every flight in afghanistan every flight is planned so that in a pinch you can TF.

Speaker 5 So if you run into bad weather, you can do it. But in doing so, now you're giving up.
Now you've got a capability,

Speaker 5 but you're giving up. In order to do that capability, you need performance, which means you either have less gas on board or less customers, less cargo, right?

Speaker 5 So there's a give and take to everything.

Speaker 5 We get to Iraq, you know, whatever you want in there.

Speaker 5 But anyway, this is Afghanistan. So we're going along.
We're still in the clouds. There's nobody to talk to.
My aircraft is all alone. This is the stuff you make movies about.

Speaker 5 And up they did, 12 strong, right? But they highlighted the green berets. But anyway, we come to the last ridge line.

Speaker 5 And we're still in the clouds. And the colonel's like, oh, what are you going to do? And he said, I'm very sure we got this, you know?

Speaker 5 And so I lower that, there's a lower altitude that it'll fly, which is like really, you know, 100 feet. So I do that, and we pop out of the clouds.

Speaker 5 We're like, I don't know, three, maybe 4,000 feet, this ridge line. And then the LZ is about a half mile to go.

Speaker 5 And then there's a little hill north of that because we'd come around and on the other side of that's a ZPU-234 right and it's Taliban so a 23 millimeter four barreled anti-aircraft cannon right if he sees me gets a line of sight of me he will tear me up that'll be swiss cheese we will not survive the aircraft's not going to do it so i've got to keep that little hill that's all it is a little nub as long as i can keep the line of sight from him seeing me he can't shoot me right so but i've got to lose three to four thousand feet in about a half mile's distance.

Speaker 5 So, the only way to do that is S-turns, right? So, we're losing our altitude.

Speaker 5 We're dropping 4,000 foot a minute. I mean, we're just screaming.
We put the aircraft out of trim a little bit to put some drag. We're dropping and we're doing this.
And

Speaker 5 my co-pilot isn't as experienced with me. And I'm like, I have the trolls, right? So, I'm doing this and I'm basically standing the aircraft on the side as we're dropping, right?

Speaker 5 I mean, we are dropping fast.

Speaker 5 I didn't time it right because as we get to the bottom, I'm turning this way. The LZ is over here, so it's out the other side of the aircraft and I can't see it.
But I'm at about 150 feet now.

Speaker 5 And I'm like, Jethro, you got the LZ inside? He's like, yeah, you have the controls. So now he has to take the controls.
He turns inbound to the LZ, but I screwed him because

Speaker 5 to do a dust landing on a Chinook, typically you get set up about a half mile out. you know and now we're much closer to that now and you the controls have little buttons on them right?

Speaker 5 And those buttons are for a little magnetic break. So you can move the controls wherever you want them, let go of the switch, and the control will stay right there.

Speaker 5 And then you can just sort of a little pressure, you can fight against the springs, right?

Speaker 5 Because when you get in a dust cloud, you want to be able to just sort of relax your grip and let the aircraft go where you set it up.

Speaker 5 If you go into it without doing that,

Speaker 5 If you tighten up at all, you know, get in that fetal position at all, your arm tends to move and you will drift, which is what happened to him because I didn't give him a time to get set up.

Speaker 5 And so he comes in there and he's a great dust lander, actually probably better than me. And

Speaker 5 he's coming in and I can feel the aircraft going backwards in the dust, right?

Speaker 5 Aft gear has got to be like 10 feet off the ground. If we hit going backwards, we're going to crash.
It's going to be spectacular.

Speaker 5 spectacular failure. And so I said, go around, go around, go around, which means, you know, pull power, let's come up out of the dust, we'll come back around, we'll try it again.

Speaker 5 Except I feel the aft gear touch the ground. Well, I'm not going to go back up in the dust cloud with a 23 millimeter gun there if I can, if I'm already on the ground.
But Jethro from West Virginia,

Speaker 5 he's a big man, right? And I mean like all muscle, and there's no difference in the controls, so I have no advantage over him. And he's starting to pull power, and I don't have time.

Speaker 5 And so I lay on the on the thrust trying to keep him from pulling up, and he's pulling harder, and I can feel myself getting pulled out of my seat.

Speaker 5 And finally, he realizes what I'm trying to do, and he stops, and we land.

Speaker 5 Dusk kind of settles, and we are surrounded by

Speaker 5 Afghan men wearing pacoles, and I don't remember what the scarf is called. They all got AK-47s.
It could be Taliban, could be Northern Alliance. I don't know, right?

Speaker 5 There's an OGA guy supposedly there, but he didn't have an aerostrobe, so he might be dead, as far as I know. And the team leader gets out, Mark Nooch, right?

Speaker 5 The leader of finite five and uh they do a little hug he comes up by my uh my window gives me a thumbs up i'm like see ya so we took off repeated the thing went back got air refueling back to bogram we sit there so we shut the aircraft down and i had nothing left like the adrenaline of that night the stress of that night um

Speaker 5 I remember just sitting there as they towed the aircraft into parking, you know, and we were just, Jason, Jethro and I were just kind of sitting there and

Speaker 5 we did that night after night after night and a couple of those nights

Speaker 5 Arlo the other flight lead and I there was a there was a an OGA pilot named Ned flew MI-17s out of

Speaker 5 Duchamp Bay into Afghanistan Pancher Valley and stuff so he stopped in gave us a bottle of Jack Daniels And so Arlo had the bottle. We snuck off in the bunker.

Speaker 5 We had a little snort

Speaker 5 and we're like, what do you think?

Speaker 5 And I said, dude, I don't think we're going to live another mission. And he said, yeah, I agree.

Speaker 5 What do we do?

Speaker 5 It's a little emotional.

Speaker 5 We're just going to do it.

Speaker 5 There's nobody else who's going to do it other than us.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 we didn't tell anybody that we had these doubts.

Speaker 5 I'm sure they had it. But as as a leader, you've got to lead.
And so we did. We did, I don't know, we put 21 teams in, I think.
In the movie, 12 Strong, it's one team,

Speaker 5 for simplicity. But it was 21 teams.
21 teams. 21 teams, yeah.
All over Afghanistan.

Speaker 5 I mean, we were, I mean, other than Kabul, I mean, Kabul was Taliban hell, but I was all the way down the west side of, I was at Farah, and

Speaker 5 I can't think of the furthest south I went, but

Speaker 5 a long way.

Speaker 5 I took the OGA guys in, and then the next night I'd bring the SF guys in, and then later on they might need resupply, you know, if they weren't near C-130 or someplace they could do an airdrop, you know, that kind of thing.

Speaker 5 But we did that. I had to rescue

Speaker 5 one of the ODAs, got in between a green-on-green engagement. You know, the Afghan Northern Alliance fought each other, and the ODA had to leave.
And when they did, you know, they were under fire.

Speaker 5 They left under fire. And so they're in their E ⁇ E corridor and their vehicles, the Hilux trucks, and they're headed south.
And I get told, go get them right now. You know, they're under fire.

Speaker 5 So I take off with the DAPs, except what do we run into again? The mountains, obscured by clouds and a sandstorm. So the daps are like, it's just me.

Speaker 5 I can't remember what the other aircraft were doing, but it was just my aircraft. And I was like, all right.

Speaker 5 You guys pick me up when I come out and we sped up to like 160, which is fast for a helicopter. And I activated the TF and we went

Speaker 5 right into the

Speaker 5 cloud in the mountains. And the radar just took us right over, let us down on the other side.

Speaker 5 And then I picked a road because I knew where they started. And it's like, all right, there's only two roads, they parallel each other.
If I follow one, the most likely one,

Speaker 5 and hopefully, I'll get in comms with him because an AC-130 overhead is a U-boat. He couldn't see anything, it was all cloud cover, but he did have line-of-sight communications with him.
So

Speaker 5 I'm Cobra 2-2, and

Speaker 5 I'm hauling ass, and a 23

Speaker 5 ZPU-23-2,

Speaker 5 same as that other gun, but only two barrels, opens up on us, and the AC can't do anything because he can't see anything. And he's a little too far away from my miniguns.

Speaker 5 You know, we can shoot at about 1,500 meters, and this thing shoots about 2,300. And so he could reach us, and I couldn't reach him.
So I was like,

Speaker 5 all we can do is maneuver a little bit and keep going, right? And so eventually we get into radio contact with Cobra 2-2.

Speaker 5 arrange a link up, figure out what road they're on. We actually pick the right road.
And we land, pick them up, head back into the cloudy mess, link up with the dApps, and go home.

Speaker 5 And what's cool for the dApps is

Speaker 5 they weren't going to let that time go

Speaker 5 unlike

Speaker 5 not have a purpose.

Speaker 5 So they started trolling in areas where they thought we might get shot at, hoping to draw a fire so they could kill it. And I remember the co-pilot for the lead DAP,

Speaker 5 Mike, he told me afterwards, he's like,

Speaker 5 damn, he says, we were literally flying in a profile where we were going to get shot down. And

Speaker 5 the

Speaker 5 flight lead is Ross, and he's like, we're not going to let those Chinooks get shot down if there's anybody out here. If they're going to shoot at anybody, they're going to shoot at us.

Speaker 3 Damn, man.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 3 So anyway.

Speaker 3 How long did it take you to insert 21 teams?

Speaker 3 Was it one a night?

Speaker 5 One a night. Sometimes two a night, you know, depending on where we were going.
Like I put over in

Speaker 5 so those guys are on Polycomri.

Speaker 5 There was a cow, not Caused, I can't think of the name of it. But yeah, we're all over the place, sometimes two a night.
So it took two, three weeks.

Speaker 5 The campaign, you know, in the movie, it's like, you know, two, three days, but in real life, it took a couple weeks. We thought it would take until the spring, except Dostum,

Speaker 5 you know, funny thing, so he's getting encircled. Nobody knows it.
Arlo and his flight are inserting a team nearby, and they fly across this big open bowl. They're at

Speaker 5 12,000 feet. The bowl is probably 6,000.
And they're in the clouds pretty much. And they pop out, they're out of the clouds, and there's anti-aircraft guns, RPGs,

Speaker 5 disk gas.

Speaker 5 And it's like something out of Battle of Britain, shooting at the Germans or something. He's like,

Speaker 5 stuff's coming up, RPGs, flying under the rotor. surface air missiles, man pads.
And what we had decided was there's nothing you can do if you run into an engagement like that.

Speaker 5 You let the aircraft countermeasures work, you know, the flares, you see them in the movies,

Speaker 5 and you just treat it like a thunderstorm. You just kind of keep going forward and try to get out of the kill zone.
But if you try to maneuver, you're just kind of dancing in their sights.

Speaker 5 So it doesn't feel good to just fly out of it because they're shooting at you still. And they come back that night,

Speaker 5 they all,

Speaker 5 no aircraft damage whatsoever. They could smell the propellant from the RPGs and all that kind of stuff in the aircraft.
And they're like, oh my God, you know, we were going to die.

Speaker 5 You know, if this is what life is going to be like, we are, we're definitely not going to make it. And

Speaker 5 so

Speaker 5 we just keep going.

Speaker 5 You know, but what that did is it let us know that a major force was engulfing General Dostum's force and helped the horse soldiers drop bombs on the right area because they had been focusing over here, for example.

Speaker 5 And now we knew because those guys, had they not shot at the Chinooks, they would have wiped them out.

Speaker 5 595 would have been gone. So it's, you know, luck plays part of the game.
Damn it.

Speaker 5 And we did that for about

Speaker 5 seven months or so. Tora Bora is in there, right? So we end up,

Speaker 5 we think we're going home. We get told, you put all those teams in, Chinooks are going home, right? No need to have them here.
We'll resupply with C-130s. All right.

Speaker 5 And I actually moved the last team

Speaker 5 from a field site to a place that had a 130 strip. And we're like, yes, we're going home next week, right?

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 Arlo's team gets sent to Bagram, first Americans down there

Speaker 5 for this place called Tora Bora, right? Because we had to get through the Taliban to get to Bin Laden. We know where he is, right? We know he's in the Toribora mountains.

Speaker 5 They know where he is exactly. And so they take the Delta guys down there.
They've got two Chinooks, and they are dropping bombs like nobody's business. Those mountains glowed for a week after that.

Speaker 5 And,

Speaker 5 you know, the guys went down with three-day rucks. Yeah, go down.
You know, this thing will be over in two, three days.

Speaker 5 All right.

Speaker 5 They get down there. Obviously, it's going to take longer than that.

Speaker 5 We got better supplied, my team. I was in silver team.
They were gold team. We go down and replace them.
They come back up.

Speaker 5 I can stay there for a couple of weeks now. I'm like, hey, give us three, four weeks.
We're fine down here. You guys stay up at K2 and support the teams.
We'll support the Tora Bora mission.

Speaker 5 So we're doing that. And then,

Speaker 5 you know, he disappears off the radio, Bin Laden, because he's severely injured. And the whole thing where he's apologizing to the brothers, you know, I'm sorry I let you down.

Speaker 5 The Americans are going to get us. And we stopped bombing him because he was off the net for a night.
And CENTCOM thought he was dead. No, she's not.

Speaker 5 We're all sitting there going, you've got to keep up the pressure.

Speaker 5 You can lift and shift the bombs as we move into where we think he is, but don't stop.

Speaker 5 Stopped, ceasefire.

Speaker 5 And he got into Pakistan. And you probably, I don't know if you ever read the book by Dalton Fury.
It was actually a guy named Tom Greer. That name.

Speaker 5 you know, is out there now, but he was the Delta commander who had bin Laden within small arms range, and they were going to kill him.

Speaker 5 And the Afghans that led them to Bin Laden didn't realize they were going to kill him and they switched sides and they ended up in a little Mexican standoff, you know, where they're all pointing guns at each other and the Delta guys had to withdraw and bin Laden got away.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 they were pissed. You know, it's all in his book.

Speaker 5 So,

Speaker 5 you know, we continued for a while going into the caves.

Speaker 5 You know, we did a thing where I had a robot I lowered out of the aircraft or somebody lowered it while I came to a hover and they controlled the robot up into the caves to see if he was there, but he had slipped away.

Speaker 5 And,

Speaker 5 you know, interestingly, I can tell you that the aircraft we flew down there on that mission where he got away

Speaker 5 was later in life the aircraft that carried his body out of

Speaker 5 Pakistan.

Speaker 3 No shit. Yeah.

Speaker 5 So it was like bookends, I call it.

Speaker 5 And the funny thing is, is the young captain who was the air mission commander with me in Tori Bora was now a lieutenant colonel and the air mission commander on the one that they got him.

Speaker 5 So he's like almost like a forest gump. He's in both areas, you know, the same aircraft and

Speaker 5 kind of a nice, nice tie-in, you know. And,

Speaker 5 but anyway. This is all one deployment.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 Holy shit, man. So we get, you know, all these exciting things, very high adventure.

Speaker 5 We start getting better at what we're doing. The Taliban is, you know, they're starting to hide now.
And as a matter of fact, I flew into, a guy gave us the embassy back.

Speaker 5 When we went to Kabul, when 5th group got into Kabul, this little Afghan fella comes up and he's like, you know, excuse me, would you like your embassy back?

Speaker 5 What?

Speaker 5 Come with me. And he took him over.
The U.S. embassy.
that had been abandoned when the Soviets invaded was still there, untouched by the Taliban.

Speaker 5 There were still, you know, copies of Life magazine and newspapers, cigarette ashtrays, you know, back in the day. And he'd been taking care of it.

Speaker 5 You know, a little coat of dust, but he'd been, you know, gardening and doing whatever he did. And the Taliban left it alone for some reason.

Speaker 5 So he presented Fifth Group with the United States Embassy. And so we're going to reopen it, right? This is December of 2001.
Big ceremony, right? General Franks comes in, the CENTCOM commander.

Speaker 5 So I'm going to fly him, his wife, General Harrell, who was the Afghan overall commander,

Speaker 5 and a bunch of strap hangers. I'm going to fly them into the embassy.
They're going to big ceremony, reopen the embassy officially, put an ambassador in there.

Speaker 5 Except I get told, take him in at like 10 in the morning, daylight, right? I'm a night stalker. We fly at night.
Why? Because it's safer.

Speaker 5 You know, if the enemy can't see you, and goggle MVGs weren't prevalent at the time,

Speaker 5 I prefer to fly at night. And the CENTCOM guys said to my request to fly them at night, I said, let me take them in the night before.

Speaker 5 Oh, no, no, no. You got to take them in 10 o'clock,

Speaker 5 you know, scheduled. I said,

Speaker 5 you're putting a four-star general and his wife and a one-star at risk. And they're like, no, no, no, the Taliban's gone.

Speaker 5 I'm like, do you realize I get shot at? Whenever I leave the wire, I get shot at. And it's all big stuff.
You know, it's 14.5, 12.7, sometimes bigger, sometimes man pads.

Speaker 5 And they're like, no, no, no, it's fine. Right.
And as we saw two years ago, the Taliban is not gone. But so I take off, head into the embassy, and I don't have a choice.

Speaker 5 And it's flight of two.

Speaker 5 And we've got everybody on a headset. So the general's listening in, you know, we're talking, all right, coming left, coming right, you know, speeding up, slowing down.

Speaker 5 And all of a sudden, my flares go off automatically, right?

Speaker 5 Because, you know, in the movies, you get a surface air missile fired at you it's a heat seeker you know it's like oh missile two o'clock I'm evading I'm cutting my heat signature no it's more like it goes by and you go holy crap it didn't hit us right so the flares had decoyed it it went right between me and chalk 2

Speaker 5 so

Speaker 5 I'm like hey was that an inadvertent launch because sometimes they go off you know for no reason and it's not a missile and it's like oh yes sir it went right between us like damn it so the conversation is all right missile missile fired coming down left i kind of drop down i'm in it like a creek bed and i had been doing 120 i sleep i speed up to 165 so it's almost 200 miles an hour about 10 feet off the deck because what i'm trying to do is put just enough of the subtle terrain between me and any potential uh fall-on shots because you have to hyper elevate the thing get you know lock on get the battery coolant thing going and launch it right so i'm trying to do that

Speaker 5 and i come into the embassy i'm doing about 150 as i cross the wall and i got to stand this thing up on its end and drop it in chalk two comes in behind me

Speaker 5 you know general's like oh thanks for the flight guys and i'm like sir get out and they're like well uh there's nobody out there yet i said sir get out go to the building to the left

Speaker 5 all right well have a good day you know and he get out he had no idea we had been i mean he just didn't know right so we take off And this is actually a funny story I tell something. So we take off.

Speaker 5 He was on the headset. He was on the headset the the whole time.
Because in the movies, if a helicopter gets shot at, everybody freaks out and they run into each other, right?

Speaker 5 Which is what I told Jerry Bruckheimer at the 12-strong company. I said, I hope you didn't do that because we are very calm under pressure.
He's like, ah, I'd be right. But anyway,

Speaker 5 so we take off, and I'm over the city of Kabul, right? And it's very sprawling, right? It's very densely packed. There's TV antennas everywhere, those old-fashioned ones.

Speaker 5 And I get another surface-air missile fired at me. So now I drop down again to do the same thing.
I'm like dragging my wheels through the TV antennas. And what do I see in front of me?

Speaker 5 Hundreds and hundreds of kites.

Speaker 5 The Taliban, remember, had banned kites, you know, music, you had to have a beard, that kind of stuff. So everybody shaved when the Taliban fell.
Kids were flying kites.

Speaker 5 And the problem with a kite is they like to use

Speaker 5 fishing line. so they wouldn't lose their kite, right?

Speaker 5 If that gets wrapped around the rotor system and the push-pull tubes that move the blades, you lose control of the aircraft and you could crash, right? So you don't want to do that.

Speaker 5 And there's hundreds of kites above me, right? So there's string and, you know, they're off like this and I'm trying to see the string and

Speaker 5 I'm doing about 150, 160 miles an hour at this point. And

Speaker 5 I see that, I like to say that there's this one kite.

Speaker 5 a red kite it's moving this way so I move this way it moves in front of me I move this way and then it wraps around the landing gear as I go by And I look down and I see this little kid hanging on and he hangs on for about two miles.

Speaker 5 What? I'm kidding. I was like, what? I'm kidding.
That's like a half mile.

Speaker 5 But so we left, you know, we go up there. And did you ever see Flight of the Intruder? No.
Movie. So it's Vietnam.
These guys do a rogue bombing mission in North Vietnam.

Speaker 5 with an ASIC intruder and they fly over what they call Sam City. It's all these surface air missiles, they get in there secretly, except the bombs don't drop, right?

Speaker 5 They'd forgotten to do something in the cockpit. Oh, I forgot this.
And bombs didn't drop. What do we do?

Speaker 5 And now they're getting shot at like crazy. And the Willem Defoe says, well, they'd never expect us twice.
So they go around, they do it again. So here we are.
We're back at Bagram.

Speaker 5 I do pass the word, hey, we should wait till dark before we pick them up.

Speaker 5 And they're like, no, no, you got to go get them. I said, then they might want to drive out.
And I told reporter what happened. So my whimmy comes up, guy named Willie.
He's Puerto Rican.

Speaker 5 He's very, very, very, very thick accent when he gets excited. And

Speaker 5 he's very animated. He's like, oh, oh, my God.
Ah, wow, two missiles. Oh, my God.
And I go, well, don't you know we got to go back and get the general, right?

Speaker 5 And he's like, no way, no way are we doing that, right? In that thick accent. And

Speaker 5 I go, Willie, they'd never expect us twice. And he hadn't seen the movie.
And he's like, what? Ah, you're nuts. So a couple months later, he saw the movie and called me.

Speaker 5 He was like, oh, I saw the movie. I got it.
I got the line. But

Speaker 5 that's kind of how things were. That makes sense now.
That's how things were, you know, up until really

Speaker 5 Operation Anaconda. And that's its own conversation.
We can go there if you want.

Speaker 3 Let's go into it.

Speaker 5 All right. So we've been there seven months.

Speaker 5 Special operations units. typically, especially the SOAR, Special Operations Aviation Regiment, is designed to go do a mission and go home, right?

Speaker 5 You're there long enough to do the mission, get back and reset for the next mission. Well, in this case, we've been dragged out for seven months in a way that we've never been tested before, right?

Speaker 5 And we're exhausted. I mean, we are absolutely emotionally, mentally, physically exhausted from this whole thing.

Speaker 5 So the other company is going to come in. right A Company.
I'm with the B company guys right now. And we're going to do a rip, right? Relief in place.

Speaker 5 but because we've been operating there they want us to stay through this conventional operation called anaconda right it's a 82nd airborne

Speaker 5 and 101st

Speaker 5 and they're going to go they think bin laden and zahiri are down in the gardez area

Speaker 5 so they're going to go in with a big air assault and the plan is that they're going to put special forces, coalition special forces, not the tier one guys, up in the mountains and the key passes for high-speed avenues of approach or escape, if you will.

Speaker 5 And if bin Laden's there and tries to go, they'll be able to call for fire from the overhead platforms to kill him, right?

Speaker 5 Well, in the meantime, the Taliban will be in the bottom area, and it's al-Qaeda and Taliban elements, right? This is nothing but nasty bad guys.

Speaker 5 And what's going to happen,

Speaker 5 Whether bin Laden's there or not,

Speaker 5 is there's a so that the mountains are considered the anvil right and the hammer if you will the hammer and the anvil is a special forces group from fifth group a guy named uh

Speaker 5 i think it was a w-3 herriman was his name he's leading a convoy of general zia's forces zia's forces are considered the some of the best in the country afghans

Speaker 5 and he's gonna lead them down and push the al-Qaeda and the Taliban forces out into the open where the you know the coalition guys you know so it's the Germans the French, the

Speaker 5 Norwegians, all these different coalitions are up there in the mountains going to call for fire.

Speaker 5 The problem is

Speaker 5 Harriman's identified as an enemy, and the AC-130 engages him and kills him.

Speaker 5 40 millimeter, I believe. I saw the vehicle.
It was pretty messed up.

Speaker 5 There's a lot of stuff going on in Anaconda, you know, that was later corrected. No unity of command.
The comms were bad, communications fratricide, every jamming everything so nobody can talk.

Speaker 5 So we're jamming our own stuff. And

Speaker 5 by the way, there was a weather delay of two weeks. So we,

Speaker 5 the Americans being the wonderful people we are,

Speaker 5 told all of the

Speaker 5 The other organizations, you know, the UN, Red Cross, Red Crescent, whatever our other aid organizations, hey, two weeks from now, we're going to come in here with a big battle.

Speaker 5 You don't want to be here.

Speaker 5 So of course they tell, you know, the locals, and the locals now know, and they're all, you know, Taliban or Al-Qaeda. And the Russians did a big operation there at one point, the Soviets.

Speaker 5 And there was a place called the Whale. It's this big terrain feature.
It had like mole hills, you know, guys, fighting positions made of stone.

Speaker 5 And they had all of the potential landing areas for helicopters, essentially range guarded.

Speaker 5 So you could put a mortar in, you know, dial it in, whatever angle, and you could hit a certain spot and you'd know you'd hit it, right?

Speaker 5 So anyway, that's for later in the day. But anyway, so Harriman gets killed.
Zia's forces turn and flee.

Speaker 5 Because if the Taliban can kill the American SF guys, because they don't know the AC-130 did it, they just know that his vehicle erupted, you know, with 40 millimeter.

Speaker 5 So now there's no hammer on the anvil. And when the air assault comes in, and I just told you they range-carted all the LZs, the 101st is getting their ass handed to them, right?

Speaker 5 Through no fault of their own. I mean, there's just, there's no,

Speaker 5 the main focus of the battle hasn't happened. It just disappeared.
So

Speaker 5 they're getting their ass handed to them. You know, the helicopters, luckily nobody got shot down, you know, big, big air assault.
They go back to Bagram.

Speaker 5 The infantry is down there, you know, on their heels. There's talk of pulling them out because

Speaker 5 they're getting their ass handed to them.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 my job at that time, we weren't part of it really, other than I had two Chinooks and a group of SEALs from DevGrew, and we were the HVT team.

Speaker 5 So if Bin Laden or Zawahiri does show up, it's our job to go swack them, right? Two Chinooks full of SEALs. We're going to go kill Bin Laden and Zawahiri.

Speaker 5 After a couple of days, it's obvious that they're not there.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 if only we could get eyes on this one big mountain, Takragar,

Speaker 5 that would make up for what the friendly forces didn't accomplish. They'd be able to see terrain now that they could not have seen otherwise.
Well, who could do that? We don't have anybody. Ah,

Speaker 5 we got two Chinooks and a bunch of seals, right?

Speaker 5 All right. So we're going to do two infills at one time, right? So my wingman's got one group and I've got the other group.
So we fly together. We separate at a release point.
He drops his guys off.

Speaker 5 I go to the top of the mountain, Takugar,

Speaker 5 and I'm going to,

Speaker 5 oh, I should back up. We're supposed to take them to the base of the mountain, and they're going to walk up, right?

Speaker 5 That's the plan.

Speaker 5 We split up, we do our thing, they walk up under the cover of darkness, except there's B-52 strikes coming in on the whale because they're trying to protect all these 101st guys because we still don't have eyes on the key terrain.

Speaker 5 So every time they're doing the bombing run, I got to turn back and I'm running out of gas. There is no gas to be had down there.
Once I run out of fuel, the aircraft is staying where it is.

Speaker 5 It's not getting back to Bagram.

Speaker 5 So I go back to Gardez. I shut the aircraft down.

Speaker 5 And unfortunately, this particular helicopter, which by the way, was the one that got Bin Laden's body out of there,

Speaker 5 when it finally was time to go, you know, they sent me a spare from Bagram. And there's a whole...

Speaker 5 story of how that happens. The Razor Zero 1, 02, 03, that kind of thing.
So Razor 01 brings me a spare

Speaker 5 and he's the qrf that's his job right so he's quick right he's gonna come down give me my aircraft he'll take mine back the maintenance pilot will fly the damaged aircraft back and they'll fix it and return it to the fight but now it's 40 minutes to get down from bagram and so i say uh to the team later i'm like hey uh i'm gonna be putting you in at this time at the base of the hill He's like, Al, I can't get up there under the cover of darkness.

Speaker 5 You got to take me to the top. And I said, I haven't seen any imagery for the top.
I don't even know if there's a place to land.

Speaker 5 And the troop commander happened to be on the ICS, and he's like, There's a place up there. It's all open.
You should be able to get up there.

Speaker 5 All right.

Speaker 5 So Brit Slobinski is the team leader, and he requests a 24-hour bump. He's like, Listen, I don't want to go to the top of the hill.

Speaker 5 I want to do the original plan, but we got to roll 24 to do it right.

Speaker 5 He gets told,

Speaker 5 you really need to get up there tonight. He's not told no,

Speaker 5 but the push is on. I mean, you know what it's like.

Speaker 5 So he's like, what do you think, Al? I said, all right, I'll give it a try.

Speaker 5 So we take off as a flight of two.

Speaker 5 Razor04 drops off his team, and then he goes to a link up area where I'm going to rejoin him.

Speaker 5 And I tell him, if I don't show up or you don't show up, I'm going to start the clock or you start the clock, wait 15 minutes, do a radio search, and then leave because you won't have enough gas to get home.

Speaker 5 Well, you know, you don't know where I am if I don't show up. So get home, we'll find me later.
So anyway, we get to the top of the mountain and we land up there and there's nothing happening.

Speaker 5 And I look off to my right and there's a donkey tied to a tree and a Dishka. So it's a 14.5 millimeter anti-aircraft machine gun, right? Heavy machine gun.

Speaker 5 And it's sitting there, nobody's touching it, no people.

Speaker 5 And Slab, back then and this is all changed now in order to talk to me he had to be on the aircraft headset to talk to his guys he had to take off the headset put his helmet back on with his pelters and communicate by embedder or whatever they were using or we passed information with a clipboard that had like a glow stick behind it and you write with a grease pencil and you pass that back and forth so he was in this transition period taking his headset off and I said, hey, tell the team leader to keep his headset on.

Speaker 5 I got to talk to him. What's up? I said, you got a donkey to the right.
You got a

Speaker 5 machine gun. And then somebody pops up to the left, a guy, and my left gunner sees him and says, sir, we got a guy to the left.
I said, is he armed? He said, I don't think so.

Speaker 5 Because of the Harriman incident the day before, the rules of engagement had changed because the friendly Afghans were everywhere. Now I had to have a hostile act.

Speaker 5 I've got to be shot at before I can return fire.

Speaker 5 But there's a caveat to that, hostile intent, which is, you got to, that's very subjective.

Speaker 5 And I said, listen, if he pops up again, kill him, because if he's friendly, there's no way he's popping up again while we're sitting here.

Speaker 5 And so Slab says, okay, we're going, right? So he takes the headset off, puts his helmet on. While he's doing that, that guy pops up again from a different position.

Speaker 5 And I watch as an RPG slowly comes at me. It's like in that movie Blackhawk Down.
They show the RPG sort of like a lava lamp kind of sparking at you, coming in. And it was like slow motion and

Speaker 5 it exploded just behind me.

Speaker 5 If the guy had aimed a little bit more to the right, he'd hit the left fuel tank and we probably would have exploded on the spot.

Speaker 5 If he'd have aimed just a little bit forward, he would have got me, in which case, we're not going anywhere.

Speaker 5 But he hit right at the minigun and it went through the ammo can and out the other side and it exploded in the aircraft. And because the doors were all open, there's not that overpressure.

Speaker 5 And everybody was just sort of, you know, stunned. You know, it's like,

Speaker 5 you know, stars going around, little tweety birds.

Speaker 5 and uh all of the electric dies right so the there's three electric systems in a chinook they're all geographically separated so that you can't one bit of damage can't hit them all and with the with the machine gun fire and the rpg all three lines got hit and all the electrical went out and the problem with that is the miniguns at that time were AC powered electric, meaning they run off the aircraft power.

Speaker 5 Now they run on batteries.

Speaker 5 They're done. Holy shit.
You can't shoot, right? So we're now now defensive.

Speaker 5 Everybody's still on board. But I'm wondering, did the seals start getting out? Are they back on?

Speaker 5 We never talked about that in this particular instance because usually they'd be like, oh, if we start getting off, you got to stay until we're all off or we'll get back on.

Speaker 5 I didn't know what they wanted. And Slab was unconnected, so I couldn't talk to him.
And the crew chief in the back, way at the back of the ramp, it's like,

Speaker 5 you know, we're getting hit. And you can hear like, tink, tink, tink, tink, tink, you know, as the bullets are hitting the aircraft.

Speaker 5 And he's like, you know, fire in a cabin, fire in a cabin, go, go, go. And we start, I mean, all right.
So I take the controls and the aircraft still runs. There's just no electricity, right?

Speaker 5 And we can still talk. That's on the battery.

Speaker 5 So I rotate and take off. And because the engines are on like a backup reversion, they call it, they droop a little bit at that altitude.
It's like 12,000 feet.

Speaker 5 And so I can hear the droop, meaning I probably lost an engine. So now I know I can't hover with one engine.
With only one engine, we're going to drop like a rock back to the thing.

Speaker 5 So I rotate over and I I dive down the mountain, right? 30 degrees nose low, dive down.

Speaker 5 What I don't know is that Navy SEAL Neil Roberts is headed toward the back as we're rotating, and the crew chief in the back grabs him, you know, like, I got you, and out they go.

Speaker 5 Neil falls about 12 feet to the about hip-deep snow, and the crew chief is on a tether, and he's hanging. beneath the aircraft.
I don't know that. But I'm diving.

Speaker 5 I'm literally on the treetops because the Dishka is shooting at us. And so I'm trying to get down below his potential for, you know, elevating the gun down.
And I don't know.

Speaker 5 This guy's feet are tickling the freaking trees. And the other crew chief in the back sees him,

Speaker 5 pulls him up, right? And there's hydraulic fluid everywhere. You know, so it's very slippery back there because of the bullets that hit the transmissions and some other things.

Speaker 5 And the crew chiefs tell me, sir, we're okay. The engine's running.
You can level off. So now instead of crashing at the base of the hill, I level off.
We're about 9,000 feet.

Speaker 5 And they say, sir, we lost a man. I'm like, what do you mean you lost a guy? I'm in total denial.
I'm like, give me a head count. And like, sir, we don't have to give you a head count.

Speaker 5 We just watched him fall out the back.

Speaker 5 Is he alive?

Speaker 5 Yeah, he looked like he was alive when

Speaker 5 we left. All right.

Speaker 5 And they're like, sir, but the guns don't work. I said, test fire the guns.
Like, they know the guns don't work.

Speaker 5 So they're like, all right, we're going back to get them. So we circle back around.

Speaker 5 We start climbing back up 12,000 feet and we get lined up and we're starting to get lined up and the controls lock up.

Speaker 5 We lost all our hydraulic fluid and you can't move the controls without hydraulic fluid. We're trying to move.
My co-pilot's trying to move it. And we are just flying it 12,000 feet over the battle.

Speaker 5 in the valley below at the whale. I can see tracer fire going both ways.
I see explosions and I can't do anything. I can can see stars up above.
And I was like, hey guys,

Speaker 5 I'm sorry. We're done.
I can't move the controls. You know, I don't know what's going to happen, but I'm not in control.

Speaker 5 And the guy in the back, the crew chief, there's a little fill port, right? And he opens it up and he pours a can of hydraulic fluid in it.

Speaker 5 And it's got a little T-handle and he's like pumping this thing like nobody's business. And all of a sudden, the controls come alive in my hand.
I can feel the thing go brrrrr.

Speaker 5 I was like, I have control. And so I turn the aircraft back inbound and we're lined up to land on the top of the ridge and the controls lock up again.

Speaker 5 We've got about 50 seconds per can of hydraulic fluid.

Speaker 5 And now I know we're just going to impact on the top of Roberts Ridge. That's the name now.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 he puts another can of fluid in there. And I know that there's no way we're going to be able to land there with no guns.
And I still got Razor 04 out there, right? So he's fully capable.

Speaker 5 So I'm like, you know what?

Speaker 5 We're going to turn left we're going to try to land where razor 04 put the other mako team and it's far enough away that the angle of descent if we lock up again maybe we'll survive maybe we won't i mean it just depends but that's that was the intent so we flew down we actually went way over them i couldn't shorten up the the descent and we ended up uh coming into this this kind of a hilly area Except I couldn't see that in the goggles until I got closer.

Speaker 5 I just saw flat as far as I could tell. And as we get a little bit closer,

Speaker 5 you know, he'd put that other, that last can in and we get down to the bottom. I'm thinking we're going to run out of fluid any minute now.
And I can't move the controls, the cyclic, right?

Speaker 5 The one between my legs. That's the directional control.

Speaker 5 And we start sliding uncommanded to the right and I can't stop it.

Speaker 5 So there's a saying in aviation, never quit flying the aircraft.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 I look at where we're headed and I jam on the right pedal and the nose swings around in the direction of the drift. And now we're going to hit straight on.
So at least we got a chance.

Speaker 5 If we hit this way, we're going to roll over, boom, movie stuff.

Speaker 5 So we hit the ground. I got one more push on this axis, and I do it, and we settle on a slope that's about,

Speaker 5 I don't know, 15, 20 degrees,

Speaker 5 right side high, and but 15 degrees, nose high. So the aircraft's kind of sitting up like this.
Pull the engines offline, hit the rotor brake, stop them in one revolution.

Speaker 5 And I actually, so our commander at the time is an ex-Delta guy that went to flight school, ended up as our commander. And we'll call him

Speaker 5 Joe Gorst, not his real name, but it's close. And he used to do these things called Gorst games.

Speaker 5 And he would have us in training do shoot downs. So you'd go do some mission.
I'd fly up to Cleveland. from

Speaker 5 Fort Campbell, air refueling on the way up, on the way back. I'd come back and I'd say, hey, go land at Fagel DZ out on the range, right? So I'd go land out there, and

Speaker 5 they'd have to shut down the aircraft. They'd give me a little envelope.
You've been shot down. You're in enemy territory.
Go to these coordinates, you know, to link up with, you know, whatever.

Speaker 5 And then there were guys there to fly the aircraft back so that we'd be out there three, four days walking in the woods, doing escape and evasion, survival, that kind of stuff.

Speaker 5 So we called these things the Gore schemes.

Speaker 5 So we hit the ground, rotor brake stop,

Speaker 5 and I'm like, holy crap, we're alive. You know, there's a couple points there I didn't think we were going to survive.

Speaker 5 And I say, not another freaking Gorst game, right? And I hit all the switches that destroy the computers. And it was just funny.
I got a coin from the NSA for doing that.

Speaker 5 I kind of joke I should have left it because it was such a mess to software that we could let the Chinese re-engineer it and they'd set them back 20 years.

Speaker 5 But anyway, I didn't, you know, I deserved my ComSack and destroyed the mission computers and all that that kind of stuff. So get out.

Speaker 5 Slobinsky,

Speaker 5 Chapman, you know, the CCT, they're out there. They're already talking.
They've set up a perimeter. We've got an M60 machine gun still.
And

Speaker 5 he's talking to the AC-130. He goes, Razor 04 is on the way.

Speaker 5 They know where we are now. And they're headed our way.
And I was on the ground about 45 minutes. And they're like, hey, we're going to, you know, I get my GPS out.
I plot the map where we are.

Speaker 5 And Slab's like, all right,

Speaker 5 you guys stay here, we're going. I'm like, where are you going? To the top of the hill.
I'm like,

Speaker 5 we're a good 10 kilometers away. You're not getting up there right now.
He's like, no, it's right there. I'm like, no, it's that one.
Because we'd flown a good three minutes at 100 miles an hour.

Speaker 5 We got a pretty good distance away. So he's like, oh.

Speaker 5 What about Razor Fork? Can they take us up there? And I said, I don't know what he's got for gas. I don't know his lift capability.

Speaker 5 So he gets there and he says, listen, I can't take all of you at once, like as in my air crew and the SEALs back to the top. So

Speaker 5 Slab's like, can you guys just stay here and we'll come back and get you?

Speaker 5 And I said, yeah, but, you know,

Speaker 5 we're all air crew here. And though I am good with my weapon, I don't know what's going on ground guy-wise, right? And so I said, can you spare somebody? Don't, if you can't.

Speaker 5 And he looks around and he was going to give us Chapman because, you know, CCT guy would be good to defend our position. Except they got in a fight.

Speaker 5 You know, John doesn't want to be left behind. He wants to go.
So now I'm embarrassed that I even asked. I'm like, just go, go, go.
We'll be all right. You know, so like, all right.
But

Speaker 5 higher command says that, you know, I'm leaving the air crew there. There's enemy combatants headed that way.
The ACN-30 was supposed to engage them, except we got out of there before they had to.

Speaker 5 They go back to Gardez, they download all our shit, and they head back to the top of the mountain. Meantime, I'm at the FOB

Speaker 5 waiting for them to do it. So they, you know, Jethro re-infills them.

Speaker 5 And there's a whole problem with the AC-130, you know, at the time.

Speaker 5 You know, these guys, I love them later on in life, but this particular time frame, I got nothing nice to say about them because they'd killed Harriman.

Speaker 5 And because they had the fratricide, they wouldn't shoot on top of Roberts Ridge. So when Jethro's trying to put them in and raise a 04,

Speaker 5 There's supposed to be pre-assault fire, but they know there's a friendly up there. But we also know where the bad guys are.
And we're like, hit the bad guy positions.

Speaker 5 Like, well, there's a friendly up there. We're not going to shoot.
And then they agreed to shoot, but they didn't. So when Jethro comes in, he's taking heavy fire from the Dishka.
Damn.

Speaker 5 And so he breaks off and he comes around the mountain. And he's like, you've got to put fires down on that or I'm not going to get out of there.
And the guy's like, yep, yep, approved.

Speaker 5 And they come in and they fly up the mountain like almost like a GoPlat kind of thing. They kind of come in, they drop up and they drop in, and the AC doesn't shoot.

Speaker 5 I know now they were fighting in the aircraft about whether they should support or not, but the aircraft commander, because they'd killed the friendly the day before, just wasn't having it.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 so they get him in. They do their thing.
I'm not going to tell their story because that's their story to tell. But Jethro comes back to Gardez.

Speaker 5 The aircraft flames out. He has no gas left at all.
The engines quit when he lands. He lands and it's like,

Speaker 5 that aircraft's not going anywhere. And it's full of holes, right? There's computers and wire bundles and parts of aircraft that have holes in them that shouldn't have holes.

Speaker 5 And it took a couple days actually to repair it to get it even flyable back to Bagram.

Speaker 5 But the people at Bagram don't know that. They just think it's out of gas.

Speaker 5 So there's some confusion at Bagram as they try to put an internal tank on, to fly it down to us, to put gas in it, to return it to the fight.

Speaker 5 And then I get on the phone and I call back to the talk and I'm like, hey, that aircraft's out of the fight. Oh, all right, pull the refuel tank back off, right?

Speaker 5 So now there's all this confusion of what's going on. And so, Razor 01, who had brought me the spare, has just arrived back at Bagram.

Speaker 5 And he's told QRF's got to launch. We got guys on the mountain.

Speaker 5 Al's been shot down. So, the Rangers, Nate Self, and his guys, get on Razor 01 and 02, and they head right back.
Except they think they're coming to me at the Chinook where I crashed, right?

Speaker 5 And they actually flew by me.

Speaker 5 Isn't that Al's aircraft? Why are we going this way? Why are these coordinates somewhere else? And they don't really know what's going on yet because we haven't been able to talk.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 so the flight lead

Speaker 5 decides that he doesn't know what's going on. He's getting conflicting information.
So he sends Razor 02 to Gardez.

Speaker 5 to just sort of let him sort things out and maybe talk to me in person. So they come in, I go run over the the aircraft, fill them in, and right about the time Razor 01 gets there, the AC-130 leaves

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 He takes an RPG to the right engine.

Speaker 5 So if you imagine the mountain like this, I was on this side of the mountain and was able to take off and dive down.

Speaker 5 He's on this side of the mountain, starting to flare for landing, he loses his engine, and he pancakes. on this side.
So he doesn't have the distance to dive over. He's on the objective.

Speaker 5 Heavy machine gun fire. The Rangers take heavy casualties and the air crew is all shot to pieces.

Speaker 5 Our friend Phil Sveetak, the flight engineer, is shot just below the body armor and he dies on his gun defending the aircraft.

Speaker 5 The co-pilot, after the fact, turns out he had like, I don't know five or six rounds in his armor right at his heart. Didn't penetrate.

Speaker 5 He got shot in the hand, like he went, he got his M4 out of the mount, and he goes like this to fight with it, and his hand hand is limp. And once again, that's their story to tell.

Speaker 5 So in the meantime, I'm down at Gardez and

Speaker 5 we're building speed balls for them, like ammunition rocks, water, that kind of stuff.

Speaker 5 And the idea is they're going to fly over with a good Chinook and they're going to just kick the stout stuff out and at least resupply them.

Speaker 5 Because they don't have a lot of stuff. It's only half of a Ranger squad, right? The other half's in Rangers are a two.

Speaker 5 And like four of them were killed

Speaker 5 on impact, right? And the crew chief, the crew is all injured. Every one of them except one has been shot.
You know, only one died, but the rest of them are seriously injured. And

Speaker 5 it turns out

Speaker 5 everything on top of the mountain kind of settles down. And we're going to go The guys are going to go get them, not me, I'm down at the fob.
And they're going to go get them in the daylight.

Speaker 5 And then somebody comes up around the backside, shoots them up with a machine gun from further than they can shoot, they're M4s.

Speaker 5 And that's when Cunningham is hit, one of the PJs.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 Nate Self, the platoon commander, is on the radio and he's like, we got another one hit. You got to get Kazavak here

Speaker 5 or we're going to lose a guy right now.

Speaker 5 And I remember when that happened, I looked over at the CIA guys

Speaker 5 and I said,

Speaker 5 they looked at me like I knew what was going to go on. And I said,

Speaker 5 they're not going to launch another aircraft. We just lost three aircraft in the same LZ.

Speaker 5 They're not going back till dark. And like, but that guy's going to die.
And I said,

Speaker 5 another aircraft,

Speaker 5 seven crew members on board, maybe Rangers.

Speaker 5 They're going to wait till dark. And that's what they did.
They told him, no, he

Speaker 5 couldn't have an aircraft. And you know, Cunningham did die on the mountain there.

Speaker 5 so

Speaker 5 we also had intercepts that the Taliban knew that the air crew were at Gardez and that all of the shooters had left with the British Chinooks and they're getting ready to do a rescue right that's the day the daylight rescue that we're thinking is going to happen and so here's this convoy coming and the guy that was in charge of the fob

Speaker 5 It was an alias. He called himself Hal.

Speaker 5 He met. He's like, Hal, Al, Al, Hal.

Speaker 5 And he's like, what kind of weapons do you have? And I said, well, we all got long guns. We all have, you know, six, seven magazines of ammo.

Speaker 5 We have ammo ruck on each aircraft with, you know, 10, 15 magazines in there. We had AT-4s.
Each aircraft had one. And we each had at least an M60.

Speaker 5 So he's like, all right, we can put up a formidable defense. Let's go.
So he,

Speaker 5 like something out of a movie almost, he walks me around and tells me how we're going to do the defense, right?

Speaker 5 So I go out to the aircraft with my GPS and I mark the distance so we can do a range card. And we're prepared to defend the Alamo, essentially.

Speaker 5 And they rigged the back wall to blow out because they figured they'll attack the front gate. And we had the, you know, Hilux trucks and stuff.

Speaker 5 And there was a big pit with all the ammunition and explosives for the FOB

Speaker 5 under a tarp. He's like, all right, here's when we decide to leave.
You know, this guy's going to blow the wall. He says, I need you to climb under the tarp, and here's the trigger.
You pull that.

Speaker 5 It's a time delay. And you come run, get in here, and we're going to drive as fast and as far as we can go.
And I'm like, oh, man,

Speaker 5 I'm not cut out for this. And

Speaker 5 luckily for us, the AC-130 did engage them, and the convoy turned back. So we never had to find out if I could do that or not.
But so, but here's the next part of the story is

Speaker 5 they do the nighttime ex-fill.

Speaker 5 They pull the KIAs off.

Speaker 5 So we've got, you know, Rangers, Neil Roberts, they found,

Speaker 5 you know, the 160th crew member.

Speaker 5 And they've put them as respectfully as they can on the floor. They've been, you know, rigamortis and freezing up there.
So it's hard to place them nicely. And they take up a lot of space.

Speaker 5 And that aircraft is sent to pick me and my crew up and the crew of Razors are four.

Speaker 5 I'm told be at eight o'clock, be on

Speaker 5 HLZ Gavin, right? The problem is a reporter is driving through Gardez or a car full of reporters and they go through a checkpoint and a guy throws a hand grenade into the car and it explodes.

Speaker 5 It doesn't kill anybody, but the journalist, the woman who I've since talk to,

Speaker 5 she's going to die, right? So they drive her to the fob.

Speaker 5 Just so happens, they come up before, you know, about seven o'clock, maybe 7.30.

Speaker 5 And the weatherman comes in and he's like, sir, sir, we get the journalist, you know, grenade, you know, I got it, I got it, you know, get the medic, right?

Speaker 5 So I had one of our medics with us, the 160th medic,

Speaker 5 and he's working on her, and I get another phone call. Make sure you're out there, you know, in the landing zone.
They are going to be low on gas, and I mean low, right?

Speaker 5 Okay. Usually we exaggerate the gas thing a little bit.

Speaker 5 But he's working on her. And I mean, her thigh is shredded.
She's in bad shape. And

Speaker 5 he's working on her and I was like all right guys look

Speaker 5 if he can't stabilize her in time

Speaker 5 you go I'll stay here with him so at least he's not alone and then I'm on him what do you think doc he's like working on it sir you know I'm like I just need to know you know I mean do we go here are we going to be here they need to know and he's like I think I almost got her you know so he does stabilize her The other guys are out on the LZ.

Speaker 5 We jump on a Hylux truck. There's a minefield.

Speaker 5 Luckily, the driver kind of of knows where it is, or he thinks he does. And he's kind of weaving through it, you know, at like five miles an hour in the dark.
And we get there as the helicopter lands.

Speaker 5 And I've got all of the miniguns, the ComSec,

Speaker 5 all the sensitive items, that kind of stuff, code books or whatever you want to call it. And

Speaker 5 everybody's getting on board. And I'm the last one.
And I'm feeding equipment up. the ramp, right? And the crew chief is yelling at me, sir, we've got to go.
We've got to go. We're out of gas.

Speaker 5 I'm like, you're running. You're not out of gas.
And he's like, no, come now. And I got the last minigun on board.

Speaker 5 I climbed on and there was nowhere to go because my flight engineer had gone on board, tripped on one of the bodies, fell on top of his good friend face to face, you know, and realized who that was.

Speaker 5 And he would go no further. He got up, he snapped his vest into the side of the aircraft, you know, where you can snap in, and nobody could go any further forward.
So now I had nowhere to go.

Speaker 5 So I see one little spot and I kind of shimmy myself in next to one of the guys. Ramp comes up, they take off.

Speaker 5 And as I'm sitting there, I realize that's Neil Roberts.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I work thigh to thigh, you know, on the floor. And I look at him and I was like, the luminescent dots on his watch.
His watch was kind of going like this.

Speaker 5 And I was like, is he alive? I mean, mean he was obviously dead

Speaker 5 but my mind was playing tricks in the blue light you know that was in the aircraft and uh

Speaker 5 then we almost did we did run out of gas actually we were landing at a the 101st had set up a farp for us except it was super dusty where they set it up and the guys did it went in did a go-round did a go-round did a go-round

Speaker 5 And I'm thinking, we're going to run out of gas. I'm going to be in the middle of the desert, you know, with all the KIAs and, you know, out of the frying pan, into the fire.

Speaker 5 And they get on the ground, and the number one engine flames out. That's the one on the left.
Just

Speaker 5 like the other razor did.

Speaker 5 They get plugged in, the other engine's still running. They have different amounts of fuel in them

Speaker 5 intentionally, so that one will quit before the other.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 they got it going. They restarted the engine.
We flew back to Bagram and we got off. Now, Bargram, we always used to joke, was so dark.
You know, it was Bagram dark, you know,

Speaker 5 if you, because you didn't have a real good light because you were afraid of getting shot because there was no fences and stuff back then.

Speaker 5 And so you had like a little LED light, you know, and you'd actually lose your balance because you didn't have enough reference. But we get there and we're at this well-lit airfield.

Speaker 5 And everybody's looking at me like, sir, where are we? I'm like, I have no idea. I've never been here before.
I think we're in maybe Kabul.

Speaker 5 Right.

Speaker 5 And finally, you know, they take all the KIAs off, take them to the hospital or where they took a morgue. And I asked somebody, hey, where are we? And they're like, we're at Bagram.

Speaker 5 I'm like,

Speaker 5 where? At Bagram? The airfield. That's the tower.
I'd just never seen the lights on before. And they turned on the lights to make it easy for everybody.
So I'm like, all right, guys, we're at Bagram.

Speaker 5 So we grabbed all our stuff, threw all the heavy equipment in a truck, and walked back what they call Disney Highway. It says dirt road.
Now it's like an eight-lane highway that the Taliban's using.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 we get to the compound. I remember walking into

Speaker 5 the ops tent first to check in, let them know we were back. And it was just so surreal to walk in.
Like everybody stopped. There was no talking.

Speaker 5 You could hear the fans of the computers, and that was it.

Speaker 5 And I was like, I'm back. You get a couple of hugs.
And

Speaker 5 then we got a debrief and that kind of stuff. And then

Speaker 5 what sucked is the next day,

Speaker 5 the guys went out to do a vehicle interdiction. They thought, everybody was telling you about Fob Schkin, right? They think this is bin Laden, and it ends up not be, but the guys had just flown.

Speaker 5 The entire package except me and one of the other aircraft had flown. And they're like, hey, Al,

Speaker 5 there's a blizzard coming. Weather just told us

Speaker 5 it's going to be here for a couple of days.

Speaker 5 If we don't get the SF teams out of the mountains, they will die. from exposure because there's no way down.
They were put in places where they couldn't get down.

Speaker 5 I'm like, can't somebody else do it? And all the other guys

Speaker 5 had flown that day. There's you and the other aircraft, right?

Speaker 5 It's like, all right, I'll do it, right?

Speaker 5 And I did not want to go back out there again. Holy shit.
Here's the worst part. So there's all these teams, right? The last team to come out.
Jesus just landed.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Like, yeah.

Speaker 3 Back out.

Speaker 5 Well, it was the next morning, right? So I got a little bit of sleep. It's, it's daytime when they do the VI.
So really, I got got maybe two hours of sleep.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 we got to get these guys out. And the other guys had flown.

Speaker 5 And I said, all right, so there's a plan on how we're going to get them out of sequence because we'll take the lightest teams out first, and we will have burned off gas each time.

Speaker 5 Or it may not be that, maybe the elevation that makes a difference. So we had this plan.

Speaker 5 The very last team to come out was going to be the German team.

Speaker 5 And here we are getting ready to launch. And the Intel guy guy comes in and says, sir, the German team says they have armed Taliban on the perimeter with RPGs.

Speaker 5 And so the AC-130 planner is there, the colonel, and I said, sir,

Speaker 5 you need to kill them. He's like, well, I can't.
I'm like, you can't. I said, tell the team to mark their position with strobes, anything within 200 meters, you kill it.
It's not hard.

Speaker 5 And they're like, we can't. You know, how do we know that, you know, they're armed? And I said, they have eyes on them, right?

Speaker 5 So I'm at this guy's throat and everybody's just in shock as I, you know, just, I think I was a CW3 at the time. I got this guy in his heels.
I'm pushing him back. Like, you will kill them.

Speaker 5 You're going to do this. You know, and the commander steps in between us.
He's like, Al, Al, it's okay. It's going to be okay.

Speaker 5 I was like, oh, it's easy for you to say back here. I just did this and got shot down.

Speaker 5 And you want me to go back to the same situation with the same AC-130 130 and you won't kill the bad guys and he was all pissed off i'll go with you i'll go with you

Speaker 5 i'll go you know screw you right so we we take off and uh the germans never get engaged

Speaker 5 but we're headed toward them and here's the part that really pisses me off we're like six minutes out call the c 130 you know hey you know races are three six minutes roger six minutes um hey listen we're uh we're gonna rtb

Speaker 5 going back to masura what yeah we have to be back on the ground by sunup i'm like i'm six minutes out you mean you tell me you can't hang out for 10 minutes you know i'm sure you can get back to masira you know 10 minutes after the sun comes up and like nope gotta go same thing they did for takagar

Speaker 5 and i these conflicting emotions i mean i didn't know what to do and my uh my co-pilot was another flight lead Ahmed is his nickname because of how he looks, you know, in that part of the world.

Speaker 5 What an amazing guy. And

Speaker 5 he did what no one else could do. He shamed them into staying.
And we picked up the Germans.

Speaker 5 The Taliban had moved away when they heard the helicopters. They didn't want to get engaged.
And we brought him back uneventful. And then the next night,

Speaker 5 The new company came in. We did a little handshake.
We flew back to Bagram. They took, or back to K2,

Speaker 5 they took over, and we went back home.

Speaker 5 And I was back again in July for another rotation.

Speaker 3 Damn, Al.

Speaker 5 Holy shit.

Speaker 5 And the story's important

Speaker 5 in that the rest of my special operations career and what I put in the book here is a family situation that developed, right? So while I'm at Gardez,

Speaker 5 the CIA

Speaker 5 guys that are running the thing go,

Speaker 5 hey, here's a sat phone. You need to call your wife because this is about to hit CNN.
You know, they've got word to air this. I'm like, I can't, you know, because it's,

Speaker 5 here's the headline. Two Chinooks shot down, eight killed.

Speaker 5 Well, each crew of four on two Chinooks, there's only two teams of two.

Speaker 5 I'm the primary flight lead. It's likely to be me by my wife's math.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I said I can't that's not how notification works and all the wives kind of knew something was up and they were hanging out at the commander's house just like they did during Black Hawk Down and I think about it if I called her even if she didn't tell anybody that I was okay

Speaker 5 they would know you know because everybody else is like on pins and needles maybe it's my husband maybe it's my husband And I had been in Desert Storm.

Speaker 5 Remember I talked about the aircraft that hit the antenna?

Speaker 5 One of the captains called back to his wife to say it wasn't me. And he might have even said who it was.

Speaker 5 And that word got out in the wives network and families were notified unofficially before the actual official notification could occur.

Speaker 5 So I took one for the team, if you will, and did what I was supposed to do. I didn't call my wife.
And so for roughly two days, she thought I was dead because they didn't know.

Speaker 5 who it was and she was convinced it was me. And when I finally get back to Bagram after the debrief, I call her on the landline and she's like, You mean,

Speaker 5 why didn't you call me? And I was like, I can't, you know, I can't.

Speaker 5 She never forgave me for that. And it tied into all of the family problems we had after that.

Speaker 3 Damn, man. You know?

Speaker 3 Do you regret not calling her? No.

Speaker 5 It was the right thing to do. I mean, could you imagine being the family that does get notified? You know, it definitely is your husband.

Speaker 5 You know. What kind of family problems?

Speaker 5 Well,

Speaker 5 over the course of

Speaker 5 17 deployments, so roughly 10 years,

Speaker 5 my wife, Linda,

Speaker 5 had a prescription opioid addiction.

Speaker 5 So remember, she had a suicide attempt when I was in Korea years before. She was doing really well.
She was in a great sport with the whole 9-11.

Speaker 5 thing, not knowing where I was and not get hearing from me, that kind of stuff.

Speaker 5 But then, you know, we have this thing where she thinks I'm dead and I don't call her. So she takes it personal that I don't call her.

Speaker 5 And,

Speaker 5 you know, it's not like this terrible thing that happens, but it's underlying for the entire 10 years, right?

Speaker 5 As she gets worse with her prescription and doctor shopping, you know, so I'm deploying because I'm a flight lead. I'm deploying a lot.
And like I said, I was back that summer.

Speaker 5 And then I did like a three-month deployment, came back for a month, went for Christmas. And then, so she's dealing with all this.

Speaker 5 And we're shorthanded, you know, and the aircraft are few and far between because, you know, a TF Sword, Task Force Sword, in the very beginning, they got like three aircraft shot to pieces.

Speaker 5 And, you know, we had ours damaged. So

Speaker 5 things are challenging, and I'm still doing it. And because I'm the flight lead, the senior flight lead, at that matter, I've got to continue deploying.
And she's,

Speaker 5 she's pretending she's okay. She's trying to be okay.
She's trying to support me.

Speaker 5 I kind of know maybe things aren't right, but I'm choosing to believe that she can do it, right? And there were deployments where she did well, and other ones that were a little tougher.

Speaker 5 And then, as we lost friends,

Speaker 5 I lost 23 friends over the course of 10 years that are on the wall.

Speaker 5 And it's hard, you know, because you lose one Chinook. That's potentially four, five, six guys.
You know,

Speaker 5 Red Wings, my good friend Trey Ponder, you know, was killed. And that one kind of pushed her over the edge

Speaker 5 because she knew him personally. You know, the other guys, she knew who they were, but she didn't know him personally.
You know, he was killed trying to rescue the four-man team.

Speaker 5 But her problem just got worse over time.

Speaker 5 And,

Speaker 5 you know, it got to the point where

Speaker 5 I like to say that so when Bo Bergdahl walked off his fob,

Speaker 5 we did everything we could just to save him right I mean we were you know I remember the the ground force was pissed this guy's a traitor or whatever but he's an American citizen and it's going to be a problem if he gets into Pakistan right so we're going to go rescue him

Speaker 5 we're doing all this stuff I get some pretty amazing stories actually a Santa's story I can tell you about later if we have time but

Speaker 5 We're flying every night. We're just missing him.
Like the intel is just a half step behind. So we're showing up at buildings he's been in.
We find his t-shirt.

Speaker 5 One place we find his underwear, his socks, you know, some DNA, if you will. And we're just a little bit behind.
And the Taliban is going old school. They're not

Speaker 5 using phones. It's couriers.
It's all courier network. And so we're doing vehicle internet.
We're blowing these motorcycles up with the miniguns, trying to stop these guys.

Speaker 5 But it's time for me to go home. My replacement gets there.
And I kind of want to stay, but I know I got to get home. home.
I've been on a long deployment,

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 so I fly down to Kandahar. We're in customs, very insulting.
I hate that, that I have to go through customs.

Speaker 5 But every once in a while, he gets some jerk, puts a grenade in his suitcase, thinks he's going to sneak it home. So we all have to now get our bags searched.
So I'm down there.

Speaker 5 The MPs are walking through my stuff, the customs officer. There's a phone call.
Is there a CW-5 Mac in the room?

Speaker 5 What?

Speaker 5 Chief Mac, you out there? Yeah, right here, right? So I'm thinking it's my wife having a meltdown, like just as I'm coming home. And I get on the phone, and it's

Speaker 5 the officer in charge at Shirana at our task force. And he's like, Al,

Speaker 5 Chad, my replacement, had a heart attack and he died.

Speaker 5 He, you know, Sharana's at like 6,000 feet, MSL.

Speaker 5 This guy used to be a ranger, one of those guys, right? He's a marathoner. He's in great shape, crossfitter.
He goes to the gym right there at Shirana as I'm leaving.

Speaker 5 He comes back just before the duty day begins. He sits down on the couch in the planning area in front of a couple guys,

Speaker 5 has a little seizure, foams at the mouth, and his heart stops, falls onto the ground. He does it in front of our flight medic.

Speaker 5 and two pilots who also were rangers when they were younger that were medics.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 they do CPR on him. And right next door to us, by the way, is what we call the SRT, the surgical resuscitation team.
This is four high-speed emergency room doctors that can augment anything.

Speaker 5 They can crack your chest in the helicopter, right? That's what these guys are for. So they're working on them.
They throw him in the back of a truck. They're working on him.

Speaker 5 They're hitting him, boosh, you know, clear.

Speaker 5 He codes four times. He actually lives.
To this day, he's running marathons on what's left of his heart. Wow.
But

Speaker 5 I have to come back.

Speaker 5 So they send a helicopter to get me. They bring me back.
I do that night's mission. And now there's no replacement for me.
He was it, right? We're wearing thin.

Speaker 5 So now I got to call my wife and say, I know you expected to see me tomorrow.

Speaker 5 I got to stay another 120 days.

Speaker 5 And so in the book, there's a title there. I call it Bergdahl Tips the Scales.

Speaker 5 That's literally, if you can put a mark on the wall, That's when she, you know, she may have been having some trouble maybe swirling the bowl a little bit.

Speaker 5 That picked up the pace, you know, and life got to be hell for her and my family at that point.

Speaker 5 And so I did the rotation.

Speaker 5 The unit did the best they could to help her. Like, she started cutting herself intentionally.
Shit. And the unit commander would come over, take her to the hospital.
The chaplain was involved.

Speaker 5 But they didn't tell me. They didn't tell you.
They didn't tell me. She didn't want them to.
This is

Speaker 5 the power she had. She was able to convince you that it's going to be okay.

Speaker 5 Let him do his thing. We know that there's no one else to do it.
Who's going to do it? That seems to be the case. And a lot of the things I do is, well,

Speaker 5 who's going to do it? Might as well be me, right?

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 so, once again, in order to save someone else's family from going through the same thing,

Speaker 5 being gone that much longer, I did it.

Speaker 5 That was probably a mistake in hindsight

Speaker 5 but

Speaker 5 you know I get back and now

Speaker 5 we'd also been to Yemen we did a couple of things so like that year I was gone like 300 days that year on multiple operations around the globe and like what year was this

Speaker 5 well mostly Afghanistan but we did some stuff in Africa and in Yemen I can't talk about what year oh what year um

Speaker 5 I guess maybe

Speaker 5 2009, maybe. I have to look.
I'd have to look in a book. Might have been 2009-ish, maybe 10.

Speaker 3 And you did stuff in Yemen and Africa and Afghanistan. Yeah.

Speaker 5 So I'd go from one to the other, to the other. And then that was over a holiday.

Speaker 5 So,

Speaker 5 you know.

Speaker 5 My poor wife, you know, she she told me she was okay, you know, and I could tell

Speaker 5 she wasn't, but I had to think that she could pull through. And it was like one night I'm on the iridium phone, I'm talking to her, and it's like we're having a separate conversation.

Speaker 5 She's at my mom's house. I said, all right, she went to my mom's house up in New Hampshire.
Everything's going to be okay.

Speaker 5 She's with family, and I call her just to check in, and she starts having a conversation. She's like

Speaker 5 in front of my mother. I can hear her side of the conversation.
She's talking to me. She's like, oh, baby, don't cry

Speaker 5 about what she's having a conversation that isn't happening like in her mind this is what's happening to her head at this point with the alcohol and the meds right she was withdrawing from methadone and she'd have hallucinations and she could have conversations and and experiences that didn't actually occur so i was pissed because i'm fine i don't want my mother thinking there's things worse going than they are And so I hang up on her and I walk back into the planning area.

Speaker 5 And one of the guys says something stupid to me, has nothing to do with this, but something he shouldn't have said. And I let off on everybody.
I was like, this place, we weren't flying that night.

Speaker 5 I was like, this place is a pig sty, the planning area. I said, get those TVs up on the wall.
We had the big monitors that we hadn't put up yet. And I said, sweep the floor.

Speaker 5 It's all dirty, you know, and you do this and you do this and you do this. And everybody's just kind of looking at me.
What happened to him, right? And so the major.

Speaker 5 the OAC comes up and says, Al, are you okay? I'm like, no, I'm not okay. And he goes, well, let's talk outside.
So we start heading outside.

Speaker 5 And as we go out the door, you know how all the doors had like the sandbags on the string to bring them back closed?

Speaker 5 So I go out and the damn thing catches as I'm opening it. And I'm sort of turning around as I'm doing it.

Speaker 5 And I step on the lower step and I fly backwards onto my back, onto the crushed rock on the ground, right? And I hit with a thud, like a sack of potatoes.

Speaker 5 And the major's like, Al.

Speaker 5 Are you okay? I'm like, no, I'm not okay. I just flew 12 feet and landed on my back, you know?

Speaker 5 And luckily, that was enough to kind of expend the situation, but I still didn't tell him what was wrong.

Speaker 5 And so by the time I got back from that, the colonel already kind of knew, the battalion commander, that something was wrong with me. You know, maybe PTSD, maybe I was just worn out.

Speaker 5 So he assigned me to the training company, Green Platoon, and I became the platoon leader for the Chinook section.

Speaker 5 And here's where my life turned to hell. So here I get this.
Now I'm home and I can see what my wife Linda is doing.

Speaker 5 And I tell her, you're drinking too much. You're driving while you're drunk.
You're going to AA, right? I'm going to fix this. I'm home now.
We're going to fix this. And she says, okay.

Speaker 5 And so she drives off to AA

Speaker 5 and she doesn't come home.

Speaker 5 So I'm calling her phone. Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing.
Finally, two in the morning, the phone gets answered. It's a deputy, sheriff.
He's like, I'm not supposed to be answering this.

Speaker 5 Who's this? I'm like, this is Alan Mack.

Speaker 5 Who are you? Right. And he said, well, I'm a sheriff's deputy at the jail.
Your wife was arrested for driving while intoxicated.

Speaker 5 So she had been drinking at the AA meeting and she was too drunk to drive. And they called the cops on her.
And she got arrested at the AAA meeting and left her car behind.

Speaker 5 So I took a cab out, got her car, brought it back.

Speaker 5 And,

Speaker 5 you know, At that point, I was like, you're going to rehab. You know, we're going to fix this.

Speaker 5 And there's a whole, you know, it's about two years really worth, maybe year and a half of this insanity of dealing with somebody you love

Speaker 5 and thinking you can, you can cure it, you know, thinking you can control it. But if I left the house,

Speaker 5 she had vodka hidden everywhere. Could be like in the in the cushions of the thing, and she was augmenting her opioid medications, which were prescription.
And

Speaker 5 her behavior was becoming more and more radical. Radical as in

Speaker 5 we get in a fight one time and she's like, go ahead, hit me again. Now, I've never hit her, ever.
And she's like, hit me again. I'm like, what?

Speaker 5 And she's like, you know, like last time, except this time my doctor has pitched, or my lawyer has pictures from last time. I'm like, what are you talking about?

Speaker 5 It was like something out of a law and order episode.

Speaker 3 Damn, man.

Speaker 5 And she's like, remember the last time you beat me? You know, my lawyer took pictures or the doctor took pictures. Give me the lawyer.
And they're in a safe.

Speaker 5 We don't have a a lawyer. You know, we don't even have a regular doctor.
It's TRICARE.

Speaker 5 And we definitely don't have a safe.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 I end up calling 911 on her, and she calls it on me, right? And they show up, and they ask where to send her. I said, send her to the on-post hospital.
We've been doing the off-post hospital.

Speaker 5 Maybe these guys can do something different, you know, different set of eyes. So they go,

Speaker 5 they convince her to go to, you know, rehab.

Speaker 5 She does.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 it works for a little bit, about two weeks, I think, when she got out.

Speaker 5 And she went to rehab some form of it, I don't know, six or seven times,

Speaker 5 to the point where the final time she did it and got drunk again after that, I went to TRICARE and said, hey, we don't have any benefits. We've used them up.
And they said, yeah, you.

Speaker 5 TRICARE's not going to pay for this. I said, if you don't get her into the hospital, she'll be dead in less than a month.
And they're like, sorry, sir, we can't do anything.

Speaker 5 And I'd gotten a big fight with her where I saw her driving. Like I came home early for lunch or something and she drove up and I saw her at the stoplight.

Speaker 5 You know, eyes are open, lights out, you know, and she's just sitting there and didn't see me. And, you know, she turns down the road.
I follow her. I get to the house.
We have it out.

Speaker 5 But you can't argue with a drunk. And

Speaker 5 it just doesn't work out and I'm like stop drinking when I get home tonight you know we'll we'll talk right

Speaker 5 and I said if you're drunk again there's gonna be a problem and I don't know what that meant but I was mad

Speaker 5 go back to work

Speaker 5 I head home

Speaker 5 she's passed out on the bed and as I walk in the door the phone rings And it's my company commander.

Speaker 5 I was like, Al, where are you? I'm like, well, you called my house. I'm obviously at home.
He's like, How's your wife? You know, he thinks I've gone on and done something to her.

Speaker 5 I was like, Well, she's passed out on the bed.

Speaker 5 She had taken my alert roster and called all down the alert roster, telling people to tell me not to come home because it wouldn't be a good idea.

Speaker 5 Holy shit. So now it's in the open, right? It is no kidding.
I mean, a couple people knew before, but now it is wide open.

Speaker 5 So I grab my dog, I grab a bunch of stuff, change clothes, clothes, grab my two bicycles, you know, my guns, put them in the truck, and I go get a hotel and I move out.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I ended up staying out of the house for about two weeks.

Speaker 5 Now, in the meantime, what did help, I kind of skipped ahead here, is I went to the regiment psychologist to ask for help, which I didn't do soon enough. I don't think.

Speaker 5 They were very helpful, but I didn't do it nearly early enough.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 they steered me toward the Al-Anon family group. So it's like AA, but for the family members, right? And they teach you, you didn't cause it.
You can't cure it. You can't control it.

Speaker 5 And the idea is to get your own feelings under control so that if you can help the other person, great. But if you're a wreck, you're not helping them.

Speaker 5 It's like trying to help a drowning swimmer when you're drowning. You know, you got to get ready first.
So they were very helpful. And they all convinced me, look, you got to move out of the house.

Speaker 5 You can't stay there and enable it.

Speaker 5 So I did.

Speaker 5 Where are your sons at? So they're deployed.

Speaker 5 My son of the Navy is

Speaker 5 actually at Vacapes, Virginia Beach. And my younger son was a Chinook crew chief in the 160th, and he's in Afghanistan.
Already. Yeah, yeah.
So he'd already done a couple of deployments by this time.

Speaker 5 So this is 2012 when this finally started.

Speaker 3 So your sons didn't have to...

Speaker 3 It wasn't like a rough home life for them.

Speaker 5 What I didn't know, they kind of bailed out

Speaker 5 before it was. Like they knew what was going on before I did, right?

Speaker 5 And she made them promise not to tell me because she'll get it under control and, you know, they'll bring, you know, him home and someone else will have to do it, you know, all this big circle of events.

Speaker 5 Like they tried,

Speaker 5 I'm not going to talk, they don't want me to tell a certain story, but they tried like hell to get her help. And then when they couldn't, they moved out.

Speaker 5 Damn.

Speaker 5 My oldest son joined the Navy and flies F-18s. He's a wizzo.

Speaker 5 And then the other one joined, became a crew chief, and I actually helped get him into the 160th because I didn't want him flying in a conventional unit.

Speaker 5 Because even though we're

Speaker 5 maybe facing the enemy more often, we're much better prepared and equipped for it. So if he was going to be doing it, I wanted him to be.
with us.

Speaker 5 The chaplain

Speaker 5 and the

Speaker 5 psychologist were very helpful. The command was very supportive once they knew what was going on.
And once again, I should have told them sooner, but I didn't. I thought I could hide it.

Speaker 5 I thought I could fix it. And I hear this.

Speaker 5 I get emails from guys. They'll read my book or listen to it on the

Speaker 5 audible. And they'll find my email address on the website and they'll write me these wonderful emails about, you know,

Speaker 5 I had the same problem. I thought I was alone.
You know, thank you for sharing that. And,

Speaker 5 you know, it doesn't make things any easier. But,

Speaker 5 you know, if we can help somebody in the process, which is why I'm okay with talking about it now, I mean, it's hard to talk about,

Speaker 5 but it is important.

Speaker 3 I'm sorry I had to go through that, man.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Well, thank you.
Me too. But, you know,

Speaker 5 how is steel made, you know, in the forge of the fires, right?

Speaker 5 So the command was very, very

Speaker 5 supportive, you know, and they sent me off.

Speaker 5 They said, you have whatever job you want. They even were going to create a job where I would be essentially a goodwill ambassador.
I could represent the unit with all of the supported units.

Speaker 5 I could go hang out with them. I could deploy if I wanted.
I could fly with them if I want or not. I mean, that's how supportive they were.
And I was like, I just got to get out of here.

Speaker 5 There were really two jobs that I was interested in. One was at Fort Rucker, Alabama, the ASDAT, the Aviation Shoot Down assessment team.

Speaker 5 So if somebody gets shot down, a team goes there like when an airliner crashes, like the NTSP, and you figure out what happened, you do the forensics on it, you figure out what could have maybe been different, and then recommend, you know, fixes or changes in tactics or whatever.

Speaker 5 So that was, I would have been the chief of that division. Or there was this job at West Point, the flight detachment commander.
But that's nominative.

Speaker 5 Like you have to throw your name in, the superintendent gets to pick.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 there was an opportunity to go up to Manhattan to unveil the horse soldier statue on Ground Zero.

Speaker 5 And because I had flown them, they asked for me to come up and help unveil the statue, which is a horse back on his legs with a green beret on it with an M4. It's a pretty neat statue.

Speaker 5 It's there now if you ever get down there or up there.

Speaker 5 But I get there, I'm thinking, hey, New York's not too bad.

Speaker 5 It's pretty, you know, it was a good time of year, September. And

Speaker 5 I threw my name in the hat the superintendent picked me

Speaker 5 I got the assignment at Guild Learn how to fly Lakota helicopters UH-72s and then I ended up up there but and that in itself takes me to a good

Speaker 5 the good place that I am now but

Speaker 5 yeah there's a lot of other stories in the middle of that you know you can find them in the book

Speaker 5 I know we've gone a long time so I mean I can keep talking or you can go to the next phase here or whatever you want to do.

Speaker 3 How did it go with your wife?

Speaker 5 Well,

Speaker 5 so I move

Speaker 5 out of the house and then a hotel with the dog,

Speaker 5 which I still have. That dog's 16 years old, a little Jacoby

Speaker 5 dog. And

Speaker 5 she makes one final call to me. She says, I want you to come home.

Speaker 5 And I said, I can't. The commander tells me I can't go home.
The psychologist says I shouldn't. And she said, if you don't come home, I'm going to kill myself.

Speaker 5 And I said,

Speaker 5 you don't have anything lethal in the house because I was dropping by every day to check the mail and just, she was always passed out.

Speaker 5 So she didn't even know I was there. And

Speaker 5 the next morning I was out looking for a house, a new apartment.

Speaker 5 So I didn't have to stay in the hotel.

Speaker 5 I called, called, and called, and she'd been texting me and calling me every day, three or four times a day. Come home, come home, come home.
I said, not until you're sober, you know.

Speaker 5 And I said, I need help. I said, call 911, let them take you to the hospital, and I'll come support you.
But I'm not doing it until you do that. And she didn't.

Speaker 5 And then, so I went back to the house four or five o'clock in the afternoon. I dialed up my oldest son.
I said, hey,

Speaker 5 I don't know what's going on here, but I want, you know, she says things about me. So I'm going to put you on speaker.
I'm going to put you in my pocket.

Speaker 5 I'm going to, you know, you just listen in, right? So I walk in. He's on the phone listening.

Speaker 5 House is quiet. Nothing going on.
I walk back to the room, the bedroom.

Speaker 5 I don't see her. Air condition's on full.

Speaker 5 And then I see she's on the floor under a blanket.

Speaker 5 So I'm like,

Speaker 5 all right, she's on the floor here. So I pull the blanket up and she is,

Speaker 5 her skin color is gray and blackish. She's dead.

Speaker 5 And so I call night. I say, hey, you know, Stephen, I'm sorry to tell you that your mom's not alive.
I got to call 911. So I hung him up.
Kind of a crappy way to go there on the phone.

Speaker 5 And I called 911, and the operator says, are you sure she's dead? I'm like, look, I've done a lot of combat deployments. I know what a dead person looks like.
Are you sure? Can you roll her over?

Speaker 5 So Rigger was in her arms like this. And I had to, like, they were like outriggers, you know, and I tried to, no, she's dead.
All right, we'll go out front and wait for the police, right?

Speaker 5 So they were there in like

Speaker 5 a minute because they'd been waiting for her, trying to catch her car because they knew she was out driving around drunk and they were trying to catch her in the act.

Speaker 5 So the cops were actually like set up an ambush, if you will, on both ends of the road. And they got there and

Speaker 5 did their thing.

Speaker 5 And, you know, the medical examiner came, you know, they bagged her up, brought her out in a stokes. You know, the neighbors were all around.
And it was,

Speaker 5 it was kind of, it was heart-wrenching to hear these neighbors because they thought they could fix her, right?

Speaker 5 So they knew we were having problems because when I was gone, she was bizarre behavior and they were sworn to secrecy. They told me about this all afterwards.

Speaker 5 Oh, she made us promise not to tell because you were doing combat missions and

Speaker 5 such. And they're like, we'd take all the alcohol out of the house.
We'd come back four or five hours later, after watching the house, and she'd be drunker than when we left her. I'm like,

Speaker 5 I don't know what to tell you. She's got it hidden in the attic, in the basement, I mean, wherever.
You know, she'd call a cab and say, you know, hey, I'm not actually going anywhere.

Speaker 5 Just bring me a bottle of vodka, you know, or a bag of vodka, you know. And like when I got there, there were a couple of one-gallon jugs and a bunch of little flasks laying around.
She drank it all.

Speaker 5 And she basically drank herself to death.

Speaker 5 Oh, one night.

Speaker 5 So I moved back into the house. You know, we have the memorial and all that stuff.
And

Speaker 5 I knew I needed that change of venue which is why you know I told the regiment hey thanks for the offer for the job but I'm gonna go one of these other places and so I put the house up for sale

Speaker 5 you know ended up in New York and the cool thing about that was

Speaker 5 I was probably about the most family-friendly commander my guys at the detachment had ever experienced.

Speaker 5 And they told me that. And I told the wives, like the first week I was there, I had the wives come in for breakfast.
We had a full kitchen. You know, the hangar was beautiful.

Speaker 5 And I was like, come on in. Talk to me.
Your husbands can't come. And I say, here's my background.
You know, I told them about my wife. And, you know,

Speaker 5 they were all tearing up. I told the story.
And I said, listen,

Speaker 5 if

Speaker 5 your husband ever tells you. he can't do some event you want to do, you know, you got to go visit your parents or you're going to go on a trip or you have a birthday party.

Speaker 5 And he says, oh, the commander says I got to fly. I said, you call me.

Speaker 5 I said, because

Speaker 5 he's going to know, after I tell you this, not to lie to you, that I will never take them away from that if I can.

Speaker 5 If I need them, if I must use them, I'm sorry. You can call me.
I'll tell you.

Speaker 5 Yep, it's me. I got to have them and I'll give them back as soon as, you know.
And

Speaker 5 it was great. And we were there.

Speaker 5 This hangar facility

Speaker 5 in the winter, we'd move the aircraft to the other side, and so it's an empty hangar. And we'd bring in inflatables for the kids.
And everybody had kids.

Speaker 5 You know what it's like.

Speaker 5 And in the better weather, we'd have a bonfire out back. We actually had a big fire ring that we built, picnic tables.
And we had permission because it was really Army property on the airport.

Speaker 5 So we could do that. I had the state police in my hangar.

Speaker 5 How I knew I was being successful with the camaraderie and the morale,

Speaker 5 that they weren't faking it, you know, like mandatory fun, was in the middle of the week, they'd be like, hey, sir,

Speaker 5 the list of guys, sir, it's good weather today. We got nothing going on tomorrow.
What do you think we do

Speaker 5 a family party tonight?

Speaker 5 Sure. So pot luck.
Everybody come in. We have our time.
And it was good. We also had a bunk room

Speaker 5 in the... hangar so I could just stay there.
I didn't have to drive. But I met my wife Patty, my current wife, and she is a bundle of sunshine.

Speaker 5 She'll She'll see this and she's going to be like, oh, you know, stop. But everybody that meets Patty loves Patty.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 when we were courting, if you will, on the phone,

Speaker 5 she's like, so where were you on 9-11? Which is a very New York question to ask. And I told her.
And I said, you know, a couple weeks later, I was in Afghanistan. I was the tip of America's response.

Speaker 5 And she's like, what? And she didn't know anything about it.

Speaker 5 So we talk about it. It turns out her stepbrother died in the North Tower.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 kind of a nice mesh there.

Speaker 5 Actually,

Speaker 5 I told you earlier, at breakfast, I was at a Tunnels to Tower event. I met the Sillers.

Speaker 5 Their son died running from the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel to the tower and died. And they do this run every year.

Speaker 5 And so we're talking, and they'd met the horse soldiers, if you will. They'd never met me.
And they were really, really nice people, you know, and very grateful.

Speaker 5 Nice organization, all that kind of stuff. And that's the kind of thing I do now is that, so, all right, so I did the Army thing, so I'm flying the superintendent around,

Speaker 5 you know, flying to DC, flying to see the Secretary of Army. You know, the cadets get in a fight with the pillowcases and have batteries in them, I guess.

Speaker 5 Gets on Twitter and he gets called down, you know, what the hell, Caslin, you know, and he's like, sir.

Speaker 5 So I got to fly him down there.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I I befriend some firsties, that's seniors, right, at West Point. So my very first support mission, we fly the Lakota out to West Point, we land, we shut down, it's parachute season

Speaker 5 in August. And

Speaker 5 these two cadets, seniors, they know about me because one of the guys that was ahead of me was one of my instructors, you know, that worked for me. And

Speaker 5 so they know who I am. I get there, and as I'm walking toward the group for the safety brief for the season, they're like, hey, sir, you know,

Speaker 5 Cadet Dave and Chris, you know, I'm not going to use your last names.

Speaker 5 We want you to be our leadership mentor. I'm like, sure.

Speaker 5 And they run off. All right.
Yay.

Speaker 5 I'm looking at this other guy. I'm like, what did I just sign up for? And he's like, I have no idea.
Right. So essentially, I was,

Speaker 5 you know, they would ask you, you know, come to the house on Friday nights, you know, and talk about their career in the military. How do you deal with a platoon sergeant?

Speaker 5 How do you deal with a a warrant officer? How do you deal with, you know, troubled soldiers, whatever it is, leadership questions. And in doing so, they're like, oh, sir,

Speaker 5 you got to do a tandem with us. And I'm like, no, I'm a pilot, but I'm scared of heights.

Speaker 5 Right?

Speaker 5 And I'm like, there's no way I'm going to skydive on purpose. Right.
And they're like, oh, come on, right? So we get through the season. It's almost graduation.

Speaker 5 And I've had a great time with these kids. And

Speaker 5 the OIC of the team is this, he's a lieutenant colonel at Green Beret. He comes up, he's like, Al,

Speaker 5 why don't you do the tandem? The guys really, it would mean a lot. You know, they'll jump with you.
Like, you'll jump on Coach Falzone. He's the parachute team coach.
I'll jump with you with a camera.

Speaker 5 We get all these other guys, and they'll jump with you. They'll be right in front of you.
It'll be great. And we'll drop right on the plane, which is the parade field at West Point.

Speaker 5 And I'm like,

Speaker 5 i don't want to do this but i will it's another one of those i don't want to do this but someone's got to do it and in this case i have to because it's me that they want to jump with so i do it and i remember flying up sitting on the floor of the lakota there's no seats in it we're climbing up to altitude we're going to jump from 13 000 feet and uh you know tom fell zones he's hooking me in he's like you're all right i'm like yeah you know yeah and the crew chiefs are all looking at me they got their gopros on they're waiting for me to show some fear.

Speaker 5 And I am scared to death, you know, but I'm not showing it. And it comes time, and we kind of scoot to the door.
And I got to sit up basically on the skid, you know, leaned up against the aircraft.

Speaker 5 He said, look up, look up. And we just tip out head first.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I'm now a licensed skydiver because I loved it, you know. And so I got the cadets the next year, the next season,

Speaker 5 taught me how to skydive. Like the coach did.
He did AFF.

Speaker 5 I got to the point where the cadets could coach me and then got my A license and then moved on to my B license and then I retired so I didn't go any further.

Speaker 5 But the cadets were a big part of my emotional rejuvenation. So I meet Patty.
She's wonderful.

Speaker 5 You know, we're like sickeningly in love. I mean, we got to touch each other.
We got to hold hands. It's that whole thing, right?

Speaker 5 And she has kids. You know,

Speaker 5 her son is in the infantry in the 101st, and he's already done a combat tour. And he's trying to put him for flight school.
We'll see how that goes. And then my stepdaughter lives with us.

Speaker 5 And my oldest stepson lives in Manhattan,

Speaker 5 working down there. So great big family.
They all get along. My kids, the grandkids.
I got three grandkids with the first son,

Speaker 5 two girls and a boy. And my younger son just gave me a granddaughter, son has four.
And it's just

Speaker 5 amazing.

Speaker 3 Good for you, man.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 But it does go to show you, you know,

Speaker 5 you know, we didn't talk about it in this, in this sitting, but

Speaker 5 my faith was tested, you know, many times during this process.

Speaker 5 And,

Speaker 5 you know, I told you that there was a point where it was so bad I shook my fist at God and I was like, you know, you know, damn you, God, you know, excuse me.

Speaker 5 And I swear things got worse. And it wasn't until I turned back and turned back into that faith that it it started getting better and did get better and I you know

Speaker 5 very grateful for that

Speaker 5 how did they get worse

Speaker 5 the behavior of Linda because

Speaker 5 you know she got three DWIs right only one of them was she convicted the other two kept getting extended and she'd get another one and so just when I thought maybe

Speaker 5 maybe we're gonna be okay you know I could leave town. I'd go out of town on a training trip.
I'd go to New Mexico and she wouldn't answer the phone and I'd have to go home.

Speaker 5 You know, I mean, it was obvious something was going on. And so I'd go back.
So I couldn't even make a training trip in, you know, in its entirety, right?

Speaker 5 And guys were starting to notice that, gee, Al shows up, but he doesn't stay, you know. And my close friends

Speaker 5 were good with it. You know, they were like, Al, just do what you got to do.
And there was one guy,

Speaker 5 one of my my peers if you will had no sympathy for me whatsoever he's like uh well gee you know if his wife's going to be a problem he needs to just get out you know and i remember you know hearing that thinking dude i hope this never happens to you you know kind of thing but um

Speaker 5 you know the uh

Speaker 5 The church family was very helpful. You know, there was a point where when I did that, shake my fist at God, they were not not as helpful.

Speaker 5 You know, there was a faction of the church, you know, the physical congregation that was kind of knew what was going on. You know, we were trying to hide it, but they knew.

Speaker 5 And they sort of, instead of helping her, you know, kind of turned against her, turned their backs on her, which was hurtful to her, which then was acted out with, you know, more alcohol, you know.

Speaker 5 So that's kind of how it got worse. I mean, it just got to that point where I had to move out of the house.

Speaker 5 And then, you know, once I was away from it, you know, enough physically away from it where I didn't have to look at it constantly,

Speaker 5 you know, my mind and my

Speaker 5 soul really got quiet. You know, I get to that quiet place where I could kind of think.

Speaker 5 And that's why when she gave me the ultimatum to come home now or else, I was finally at a strong enough place.

Speaker 5 that I could say, no,

Speaker 5 the enabling is done. You know, you're either going to get better or you're not.

Speaker 5 And in our case, it was not.

Speaker 5 And there's really a lot more to that. I mean,

Speaker 5 you can't cover it in the time we have

Speaker 5 here.

Speaker 5 And there's some other very interesting things that happened in there. We kind of skipped over, but in the interest of time, people can read the book.

Speaker 5 It's in there.

Speaker 3 Is there anything in particular that we skipped over you want to cover?

Speaker 5 I got to tell you one fun story, right? It's a Boeberg Burg doll story.

Speaker 3 We're not done yet.

Speaker 3 We're going to go back and cover a couple of events. Okay.
All right. I was talking about with your...

Speaker 5 Yeah,

Speaker 5 with Linda, yeah.

Speaker 5 And,

Speaker 5 yeah, you know, she just, she, I was married 26 years to her, and

Speaker 5 she gave it her best. You know, she came from a...
a rough childhood. There was a whole background to this.

Speaker 5 But, you know, the alcohol and the drug, the big thing I want to emphasize to your listeners is that you don't have to handle it alone.

Speaker 5 You know, whether it's somebody's drug and alcohol problem or, you know, somebody's PTSD or suicide, you know, I mean, look at the veteran suicide rate, especially with the soft guys, right?

Speaker 5 If you got a problem, find somebody to talk to. Somebody that can relate is what I would suggest.
You know, somebody who can't relate may just be like, you know, hey, pull your bootstraps up.

Speaker 5 But somebody who may have already been there, you know, or knows what you're going through can be helpful. You know, and the interesting thing, so I want to go way back to Anaconda, right?

Speaker 5 And this, this is reference to getting help.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 remember I said I was rescued, came back on the KIA bird next to Neil Roberts.

Speaker 5 Well, I was back in the States, you know, that week.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I had nightmares, terrible, terrible nightmares, reliving that night.

Speaker 5 And, you know, could I have done something different? You know, the RPG coming at me. And then Neil Roberts would be sitting about that far away from me in his kit

Speaker 5 with the damage that was done to him,

Speaker 5 just looking at me.

Speaker 5 And I could tell in the nightmare, I could tell that he was saying, why did you leave me?

Speaker 5 I'm dead. Why did you leave me?

Speaker 5 So the only way to get past that was alcohol for me, right? So I was, you know, Jack Daniels, Jim Bean, Makers, Mark, you know, I love bourbon. And I had to do it to the point where I went to sleep.

Speaker 5 So it was a lot of whiskey. And there was a point where I knew that

Speaker 5 wasn't right.

Speaker 5 You can't put the nightmares away with alcohol.

Speaker 5 So I went to the shrink, the regimental psychologist,

Speaker 5 and I told him everything.

Speaker 5 everything.

Speaker 5 And I said, can you look in my assessment records, my psychological profile

Speaker 5 and tell me if i did what you guys predicted you know am i what you want in a night stalker and he looks at it he's like well this is an old test we don't really use this one anymore uh and it doesn't really select people it's more like a an elimination tool like if you you know um have a certain set of behaviors or thoughts that we don't want, we just won't take you.

Speaker 5 But they aren't necessarily, oh, this guy's the right mindset. We'll take him.

Speaker 5 But what he did say

Speaker 5 is that there's

Speaker 5 a series of data sets, data points, right? And

Speaker 5 so think of these columns. It's like, you know, integrity, you know, here, you know, honesty here.

Speaker 5 bravery here, stupidity here, you know, whatever, how you prioritize things. And they categorized it, right? And I'm butchering this, but you get the idea there's different character traits.
And

Speaker 5 he says, you have the classic Nightstalker check mark.

Speaker 5 And I said, what's that? And he said, when you connect like the first four dots, there's like this high one, a low one, and then you go high again, you stay high.

Speaker 5 Like, if you draw a line between, it's a check mark. He said, some of, that's, that's the,

Speaker 5 what they found is you don't care about the rules

Speaker 5 when someone's life is on the line. So, for example, what they found is that people that are in aircraft emergencies,

Speaker 5 like Sully, right? Miracle on the Hudson, this is the great example of it.

Speaker 5 They wanted him to turn in and go toward an airfield. They kept giving him headings to Teterboro, to LaGuardia, and he's like, not happening.
I'm going in the river.

Speaker 5 And they try and talk him out of it. But he knows and he just does it, right? And so, in military aircraft situations, same thing.

Speaker 5 You can pull the guts out of the engines and tear it up and save the aircraft, but

Speaker 5 destroy the aircraft, but save the occupants if you're this check mark kind of guy.

Speaker 5 Then we still had a couple of night stalkers that had most of the check mark, but that low point, and I can't remember what the category was, but it was like basically concern for getting in trouble, was more up here.

Speaker 5 And we had a guy, for example,

Speaker 5 in an MH60, he got on a Brownout landing. There's what we call Bitch and Betty, is the voice warning system.
And she bitches at you if you're too low or too much power or low rotor.

Speaker 5 And this guy was in a dust cloud in a black hawk. And he starts pulling power to get out of it.
And he's surrounded by trees. And Bitch and Betty says, low rotor, low rotor, low rotor.

Speaker 5 And he jams the power down, and he... has a hard landing and the aircraft is severely damaged.
So they go back to the black box and they look at it and they find out Bitch and Betty was wrong.

Speaker 5 You know, the rotor was fine.

Speaker 5 But because he was worried about getting in trouble for, you know, maybe drooping the rotor and settling with power, he purposely put it down in a situation where he wasn't ready to do.

Speaker 5 And they said, that's the difference between the two. It's not that, you know, there's nothing wrong with that kind of guy.
It's just that's who you are. And, you know, when it came time to

Speaker 5 get Roberts, you know, with no miniguns and all that stuff, you know, I turned back in. You know, we're going to go get him.

Speaker 5 It wasn't until I knew it was useless, it was untenable. I mean, we could conceivably crash on top.
And in my dreams, at least he doesn't die alone. But we all die.
The rest of the SEALs die.

Speaker 5 My crew dies.

Speaker 5 You know.

Speaker 5 So I made a choice.

Speaker 5 One guy, we're going to go over here. Razor 04 might be able to get him.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 in doing that, he kind of reinforced that I was normal. You know, these dreams, they're normal for somebody who experienced what you experienced.

Speaker 5 And I said, listen, I got to tell you, the guys across the street, the other pilots, they're in just as bad a shape and they won't come here.

Speaker 5 I mean, I'm just to the point where I'm drinking myself to sleep. I don't know if they are, but I know they are all emotionally messed up from that whole thing.
I said, you got to make it mandatory.

Speaker 5 And so I went, he said, I can't do that. So I went to the commander, the company commander, I said, I told him the whole situation.
And I said, sir, you can make it mandatory.

Speaker 5 So he made it mandatory for everybody to go take their turn with a psychologist and minimum 30 minutes. And in order to keep things going, they could go for an hour.

Speaker 5 Everybody stayed the full time, the whole hour, and many of them came back. And they told me, you know, a week or two later, hey, thanks for doing that.
I was mad at you for doing it, but it helped.

Speaker 3 Man, good for you. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Good for you.

Speaker 5 So once again, it's that whole, you know, you got to ask for help. Knowing when to ask for help, I guess, is the issue, right? Because you can't have everybody, you know, oh, I'm stressed.

Speaker 5 I need help. Yeah.
We're all under stress, you know, so there's some,

Speaker 5 you know, some subjectivity to that, I guess. But you got to know when that isn't, it needs to be available.
So when you do decide, you want help,

Speaker 5 you do it, you know? And you can't have the stigma of, oh, crap, Al went and talked to the shrink, you know, but I knew they were all messed up, too good for you, man

Speaker 5 Let's let's go back to Red Wings.

Speaker 3 Yeah,

Speaker 3 can you talk about your experience with the with the recovery?

Speaker 5 Mm-hmm

Speaker 5 So first to know about red wings it's a conventional operation again

Speaker 5 We're not even part of it at all

Speaker 5 and they decide they're gonna they're gonna bring Marines into the base of the Corongol Valley, right, in the Kunar province. They're going to go after a guy named Ahmed Shah.

Speaker 5 The problem is, well, twofold. One is, you never know the pattern of life of who's, where is the, where's the targeted individual? What building is he in, right?

Speaker 5 Because when helicopters come, people run. You know, they don't tend to stand and fight.
They run. So they're squirters.
They squirt off the objective. So we need eyes on the village.

Speaker 5 to determine pattern of life and see if we can identify where Ahmed Shah is. And then the Marine Corps helicopters are not capable of getting the Marines into the valley, right?

Speaker 5 Because you've got to go up over the 12,000-foot ridge lines and drop down. And even in the valley, it's

Speaker 5 8,000 feet.

Speaker 5 And the aircraft don't have the performance. Not the pilots can't do it.
The aircraft doesn't have the performance to do it from where they have to do it.

Speaker 5 Hey, the 160th is not doing anything right now. Maybe they could fast rope our guys in, right? The Marines are fast rope qualified.
So they send the mission up to us.

Speaker 5 Our battalion commander is not happy with it.

Speaker 5 Fast rope, you know, earlier in his career as a young lieutenant, he'd been on a fast rope mission as a pilot and a ranger got hung up at JRTC in his miles gear and died, you know, fast roping in the trees.

Speaker 5 So he was really against doing this.

Speaker 5 And so we're going to do it. So we do a rehearsal.
You know, as far as we come elevators, right?

Speaker 5 We go out to Jalalabad and the Marines do, you know, up and down they slide down the ropes a couple times their current they do a tower the whole thing and uh so they're going to go in that's that's the concept of red wings and they're going to the eyes on are a four-man seal team that's going to go in the night before they're going to move into position and observe pattern of life that's uh marcus lettrell and and the and the boys and um

Speaker 5 So here's what happens. So there's two versions of Chinook there.
I mean, I've kind of alluded to the the E model, the D model, and the G. And I was flying E models, right?

Speaker 5 So the E model is a much more capable aircraft. I can go places the other aircraft can't go, but that equipment has a weight factor to it, a penalty, if you will.

Speaker 5 So the D models, the MHDs, right, they have a refueling probe, the whole deal. It looks just like us, but they can lift about 1,500 pounds more at that altitude.

Speaker 5 No question, if you're going to move a bunch of Marines in, you you want the D models. So they're currently on QRF, the quick reaction force, and we do it for like a week at a time.

Speaker 5 And we do a little handover, you know, and then the other two guys, you know, are always around, ready to go. They're not out on missions.

Speaker 5 They're just prepared for when somebody has a bad day to run, jump in the aircraft and go.

Speaker 5 So the D models are on right now, right? And they're going to do red wings. And their flight lead is doing it, and I'm the flight lead of the other two.

Speaker 5 So they go, okay, listen, we're going to change over.

Speaker 5 They're going to fly in the four-man team, the D models are,

Speaker 5 and then they're going to come back and the next morning, next cycle of day, they'll observe and at night they'll do red wings, right?

Speaker 5 And that day at like say, I'll call it 10 o'clock in the morning, we're going to switch over QRF.

Speaker 5 So I now will assume those duties and the Delta models that had it will now become the entire Red Wing force. They had seven D models and two Echo models.

Speaker 5 So we go to bed. It turns out team has compromised.

Speaker 5 Once again, that's their story to tell. But they call for help and they decide to launch the QRF.

Speaker 5 So this is going to be, when we get, you get the word, it's got to be about 9.30 in the morning.

Speaker 5 And I'm showered, I've got my uniform on, I walk over to the, you know, the planning area, the talk, the operations center to see, you know, how things are going on, you know, how's Red Wing's going to go tonight.

Speaker 5 and everybody's looked at the big screen TVs right so I get my coffee I come sit down next to the colonel everybody's quiet no one's talking I'm like sir what's going on he goes the SEAL team was compromised they requested the QRF

Speaker 5 I'm the QRF

Speaker 5 right now I'm the QRF he's like yeah

Speaker 5 Major Reich was already here

Speaker 5 they were already still up

Speaker 5 and as you can tell they could get in the air sooner than you because they're about to get there They're like two minutes out. Oh, wow, okay.

Speaker 5 So I'm drinking my coffee, thinking this will be interesting because there's really nowhere to land up there on this ridge line.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I watch the, there's like an A-10 overhead, and he's got a lightning pod. So you can see

Speaker 5 he's broadcasting them, doing their thing. He's not really there for fires.
He's more for ISR.

Speaker 5 Chinook comes on screen.

Speaker 5 Comes to a hover. You can see the engines getting hot because they're now at a hover.
You can see they're kicking ropes for fast rope. And all of a sudden, you know how FLIR is, it blooms.

Speaker 5 There's been an explosion.

Speaker 5 Don't know what it is, but there's definitely been an explosion. All of a sudden, the aircraft kind of limps a little bit away off screen

Speaker 5 and comes apart in flight.

Speaker 5 Fuck.

Speaker 5 The RPG was shot up into the aft transmission area and it compromised either the transmission or the drive shaft. So it held together long enough to sort of limp away.

Speaker 5 And then the blades come together, you know, because they're no longer mechanically separated. And

Speaker 5 the SEALs, the night stalkers

Speaker 5 came apart, littered on the side of that mountain. Chalk 2 was right there watching it.
And he calls in. He's like, you know.

Speaker 5 Turban 3-3 is down.

Speaker 5 This is going to be this tough.

Speaker 5 So I look at the colonel and I was like,

Speaker 5 well, I'm the QRF, sir. I'll take the DevGrew Seals, right? Because the QRF was typically the Siege of Soto Seals.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 so Red Squadron meets me at the aircraft. We're driving down there.
And, you know, Bogram at the time is this pit of admin,

Speaker 5 you know, what do you call them? Fobbits, right? Never leave the wire.

Speaker 5 You're not wearing your PT belt, reflective belt, you know, you're gonna get a ticket and we're in the back of the truck loaded down and we're headed to the aircraft he's doing like 50 miles an hour on this little tiny road and this guy's yelling at me you know slow down stop you're getting a ticket and i'm like you know flipped on the bird i'm like not today buddy not today right and we could down there the crew chiefs already had the aircraft up to engine start i jump in strap in start the engines Tower already knows I'm going, so they give me priority.

Speaker 5 And we are pulling in the power, sucking the guts out of the aircraft. I I mean, I've got like, I don't know, I think it's 28 SEALs in the back.

Speaker 5 I know I can't take them to the top of the mountain because I know it's 12,500 feet. It's hot out.
There's no way I can get them there. But now what am I going to do, right?

Speaker 5 Nobody has any idea. And I'm hauling ass.

Speaker 5 And I'm checking in. I give my ETA.

Speaker 5 And now I'm thinking, I'm not. I'm not saying this, but I'm thinking, I don't know what I'm going to do when I get there.
You know, I can only go to the same place.

Speaker 5 Maybe I could come up the ridge a different way and fast rope the guys and not even a clearing, but sort of a lighter concentration of trees, you know, and I don't know.

Speaker 5 And I get about 10 minutes out. I call the talk in 10 minutes and like, abort,

Speaker 5 divert to J-BAD.

Speaker 5 We've got to have a better plan than this.

Speaker 5 I'm thinking, oh yeah, it's probably a good idea. So we get over there.
We shut down to APU, which is the auxiliary power unit. So the aircraft's all ready to go.
Everything's spun up.

Speaker 5 It's just not running. The aircraft engines aren't running.
So I go inside. My crew stays at the aircraft.
And I'm with

Speaker 5 Frank is the troop commander.

Speaker 5 And he's like, I guess we're just going to have to go where they got shot down. We'll just rope, but we're going to wait till dark, right? And the day is starting to get, you know.

Speaker 5 It's getting on until night. And I'm like, all right, you know, we can do it, right? He goes, well, how many people? I know you can't take 28, or they would have had 28 guys on the original QRF.

Speaker 5 All right, so I start doing a little mental math. I got a map out.
I mean, I don't have my planning tools, it's just a paper map looking at spot elevations.

Speaker 5 I've got a little operator's manual from the aircraft, so I flip to the performance graphs and I'm

Speaker 5 17 guys.

Speaker 5 And they're like, 17. I'm like,

Speaker 5 18. Against my better judgment, 18, right? And they're like,

Speaker 5 okay, right. So we're waiting for dark.
And then I go out to the aircraft, brief the crews up what we're going to do. And then I get a call.
Somebody brings me back into the talk, and it's the Bagram.

Speaker 5 And they say,

Speaker 5 stand down on your infill.

Speaker 5 We're just going to start Red Wings right now. And we're going to start it with the Dev Cruise SEALs, right? So you've got the Delta models coming down.

Speaker 5 They can haul all those guys up there, and I can't.

Speaker 5 So they come down, but now it's summer and the rainstorms in afghanistan in the summer are brutal and remember i said these guys don't have the same equipment that i have

Speaker 5 and i have this digital map right i can actually even if the radar is not working remember i talked about the um the disorientation i was able to make it where the terrain disappeared from the screen meaning i was high enough i can still do that and they didn't have that capability i'm like

Speaker 5 You got to let me do this with my two aircraft because there's no way they're going to even get past Assadabad, you know, from Jaybad. They're not going to make it.

Speaker 5 They're going to run into the weather and they're going to have to turn around.

Speaker 5 Nope, that's what we're doing. And I was pissed.
And

Speaker 5 they came, they picked up my seals

Speaker 5 and off they went. And as I sat there looking going,

Speaker 5 they're going to turn around, maybe 10 minutes. They got about 10 minutes away, turned back because they hit that weather.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I remember being just furious because I I could have got those guys in. It wouldn't have made a difference, it turns out.
But we don't know that, right?

Speaker 5 And I mean, in hindsight, they were already dead. Lattrell was already down the hill.

Speaker 5 It wouldn't have made a difference other than in our own minds.

Speaker 5 So everybody eventually follows on. We're going to spend the day there, you know, get through the night, see if the weather improves.

Speaker 5 We get there. It's hot.
I mean, miserable hot.

Speaker 5 And I tell the colonel, sir, if we're not going to go until night, let's go back to Bagram with everybody and let me have all of my tools the satellite imagery all the stuff i need to properly plan this and we'll put everybody in in force tonight and he's like no no you the weather might clear and like it's not going to clear

Speaker 5 so uh eventually it's obvious those guys not gonna work so he does let me go back we don't spend the night there so i sleep on the gym floor because it's the only air conditioning and I use my body armor as a pillow.

Speaker 5 So eventually we get back to Bagram. I do a nice plan where we're going to take two flights of two.
We're going to come at,

Speaker 5 there's three ways into the valley, into the Cornigall, right? So there's the way that Turbine 33 went. They kind of went up the ridge, not the valley, but it was right there.

Speaker 5 There's another way around. I think it was Camp Blessing or something like that.
It was a small fob. And another one that went off to the west.

Speaker 5 The one to the west had high terrain, and it was covered in clouds all the time. So you couldn't fly across it in a Delta model, but you could in an echo.

Speaker 5 So I planned something where essentially the echoes would come across there, while

Speaker 5 the two delta models would come up simultaneously from the other side. And we'd land, it was like a fork-shaped spur.

Speaker 5 And we'd kind of come up and simultaneously fast rope the guys on, and then we'd go our separate ways, right? And at least that would, you know, I could come from a different direction.

Speaker 5 So the enemy couldn't go.

Speaker 5 I mean, you know, you're reverse planning, the enemy knows.

Speaker 5 They got to come from there or they got to come from there which is how they got 3-3 in the first place they knew they had to come that one spot

Speaker 5 so we rope the guys in and we tell them tall trees got to be a hundred foot rope which is a long way as you know and uh

Speaker 5 so

Speaker 5 three of the four aircraft rope at 100 feet

Speaker 5 i come over and the guy i'm not flying i'm the you know my co-pilot's flying in the right seat and we come in we're like 100 feet and he he loses visual on you the ground.

Speaker 5 He can't see to hold his position steady enough for them to rope. And he's like, Al, I can't see anything.
And I said, oh, I got a tree out my left door.

Speaker 5 I have the controls, you know, so I have a good reference. I'll be able to hold the hover.
And a crew chief in the back says, sir,

Speaker 5 start descending.

Speaker 5 Just lower the power, lower the power. He's like, you're off.
75.

Speaker 5 Oh, 50. I'm like, are you sure? He's like, keep coming.
Keep coming, sir. 10-foot hover.
The guys rope from 10 feet, you know, and the troop commander was pissed later on.

Speaker 5 He's like, how come everybody else didn't do that?

Speaker 5 You know, and I was like,

Speaker 5 well, I gave some nice answer of, you know, well, you know, sometimes the angle you come in, and I met him at the White House at Slabs Medal of Honor ceremony, and he brought that up, and I said, well, I don't want to tell you at the time, but I'm just a better pilot.

Speaker 5 You know, he's like, I thought so. I was like, yeah.

Speaker 5 You know, I just had a better crew chief, you know, which once again, I told you that that interaction, him knowing I could do that and him saying, looking and going, we could do this.

Speaker 5 You know, there's no need to rope these guys from 100 feet. I mean, they all had burned hands, you know, even with gloves.
And then, so

Speaker 5 then Red, you know, we go back, thunderstorm comes in. Every night there's a thunderstorm or two, and there's a gap in between, giving us time to bring more troops in to look for KIAs, right?

Speaker 5 So the Rangers and the SEALs, by the way, are trying to walk in.

Speaker 5 But the train is just, it's hell.

Speaker 5 And so we get to the top of the mountain ahead of anybody most everybody turned back I think that was walking and so we just kept bringing guys in every night we brought more and more guys in looking to expand more terrain

Speaker 5 I flew away one night

Speaker 5 and I told the crew I said if you see a strobe light anywhere

Speaker 5 and we haven't found everybody we're gonna go take a look right place, right time, right markings, right radio call, we'll pick them up.

Speaker 5 So the crew chiefs chiefs who do sometimes imagine

Speaker 3 some lighting, right?

Speaker 5 So in Afghanistan, one of the things that happens is the Taliban uses an old-fashioned method of letting people know where you are, and they turn lights on and they use Morse code or whatever code they're, you know, Haji code of some sort, right?

Speaker 5 But you can track a helicopter across a valley if someone's over here. They just, you just watch the lights.

Speaker 5 So sometimes.

Speaker 3 Damn, did that shit make you nervous? I remember flying and seeing that. I didn't like it.
Man, it made me nervous.

Speaker 5 I didn't didn't like it and earlier when i talked about not returning fire on these things made me feel helpless right that they could be doing this and the in the green berets the fsf guys told us that yeah so the afghans do they're they did it to the soviets

Speaker 5 but occasionally you'll see a car driving around and maybe lower terrain or something and his lights maybe he's on a switchback or something and from our position it looks like it's a blinking light but it's a car and i could see it sometimes that's a car.

Speaker 5 You know, so when a crew chief says, you know, I got this blinking light, sometimes I take it with a grain of salt, depending on who said it.

Speaker 5 And other times, I can trust it 100%.

Speaker 5 So as we flew over, I stored the coordinates, I pressed the button. The coordinates are saved in the computer.

Speaker 5 Don't see anything, don't hear anything on the radio. So we go back to Bagram.

Speaker 5 We park.

Speaker 5 We go down for the day.

Speaker 5 I didn't bring it back because I didn't think it was somebody.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 i take a shower i go to bed

Speaker 5 and i can't sleep what if it's somebody right so i wasn't allowed to drive on the flight line i'm a flight lead but i can't drive on the flight line right by the rules of bogram because i'm not certified with a driver's license for bagram so i go wake a guy up hey you gotta take me to the aircraft why i i gotta i gotta pull something out of the system so i He drives me down there.

Speaker 5 I fire up the auxiliary power unit. I download the coordinates.
I go back to the S2.

Speaker 5 Like, listen, last night at this time, I had these coordinates. I didn't think it was anything, but maybe someone should check it out.

Speaker 5 They sent an SF ODA to check it out. It's an ambush.
There's Taliban hiding kind of under a little waterfall with RPGs and an IR strobe. They have one of our strobe lights.
No shit.

Speaker 5 And had I gone in to look for it, they'd have probably got me or at least got a good shot at me. I don't know if they'd hit us.
But, you know, the SF guys kind of took care of business.

Speaker 5 But that's the kind of thing that's happening.

Speaker 5 And then, you know, the A-10s are flying around all day trying the, you know, the ISO prep cards, you know, they're talking because the Taliban's got our survival radios and they're on their, you know, survival channels, you know, and they sort of would get your attention.

Speaker 5 And then the A-10 guy would ask the, you know, question, challenge, response kind of thing, and it would kind of get broken. Ah, question's burned now.
You know, and they used up all the questions.

Speaker 5 It was like something out of a movie. They had to call back to, I don't know if it was Little Creek or the guys that were out in team one,

Speaker 5 and they talked to their friends. Hey, what are something these guys would know that nobody else would know? You know, like the Taliban couldn't know.

Speaker 5 So they, it was like in Bat 21, you know, all right, what questions could this guy maybe know? But anyway, so this is all going on. This is over the course of two weeks.

Speaker 5 This is the toughest flying I've done in my career.

Speaker 5 I mean, I've done some really difficult missions, very difficult landings, but this is the most emotionally difficult because I know that the Taliban knows I got to come in.

Speaker 5 I got to come in one of these two ways, occasionally, the third way, but mostly it's these ways.

Speaker 5 And the Delta model guys would run into the clouds, they'd climb up to 14,000 feet to get out of it, and then they'd, you know, it's like, oh my God, I can't see, clear the mountains.

Speaker 5 And then they get on top, they look down, see a sucker hole, fly down through it, rejoin with me, and that's ballsy. You know, these guys got guts.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 so we're, it's it's obvious there's no survivors at this point.

Speaker 5 And we're going to, we're practicing for a

Speaker 5 dignified transfer. So we're starting to bring the bodies out.
We haven't found everybody yet, but we've got most of them.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 like Charles Inbitter Beacon comes up.

Speaker 5 And we've been watching it, I guess. But, you know, like I said, the Taliban had taken our radios, our strobe lights, all this other stuff.

Speaker 5 But he sends somebody in with his his

Speaker 5 What's the you got one? Blood shit. Blood shit, right? So he sends his number in with a guy.
It might have even been that, the guy that made the item of the guy's name.

Speaker 5 But he walked in to the small fob about

Speaker 5 10 kilometers away. He walked in that day.

Speaker 5 It's evening. We're practicing dignified transfer.
We've got coffins, you know, full of cases of water to simulate weight.

Speaker 5 And I'm going to be a pallbearer from my NCOIC, Trey Ponder, who was on the ramp when the RPG came up. And

Speaker 5 our captain comes around, Al, Al, you got to come inside.

Speaker 5 Come to the planning area. I'm like, sir, we're practicing this thing, you know, and he's like, no, no, no.
He leans over. He goes, we've got a survivor.

Speaker 5 You know, somebody takes my place. We run into the planning area.

Speaker 5 They've figured out where he is. They've confirmed he's there.
There's an ODA.

Speaker 5 So an SF group of Green Berets. You don't ever hear about these guys.
It's

Speaker 5 361 or 362. I can't remember which one.
They're actually who get to him to secure him, right?

Speaker 5 So, you know, the Rangers get credit for it.

Speaker 5 You know, I'm sure they got there, but it was an ODA, you know, essentially with a couple of Afghans that defended his perimeter because the Taliban was still there.

Speaker 5 You know, they just kept them from coming in while we planned the rescue. So they're planning the H-860s.
The Jolly Greens came up from Kandahar, right? The Blackhawks, Air Force SARS-60s. And

Speaker 5 so the guy that's in charge of the rescue operation is a PJA major, Tom, is his name.

Speaker 5 And Tom says, all right, guys, we got a lone survivor here. We're going to pick him up in this terrace field right outside this house.
The 60s are going to go get him. And I lost it.

Speaker 5 I was like, no way is the Air Force going to traps in here from Kandahar and fly in and pick up the guy. that we lost our guys for.

Speaker 5 And by the way, there's no way they're flying at that altitude, right? And like, oh, we stripped it down. There's no guns.
There's no equipment. It's empty.
No armor.

Speaker 5 And I'm like,

Speaker 5 even so. And like, oh, Chinook won't fit in that field.
I'm like, absolutely will. You know? And this guy, Tom, was smart, right?

Speaker 5 Because I'm, as the flight lead, I got a lot of say-so,

Speaker 5 right? And I have a lot of influence because of who I am and my experiences.

Speaker 5 And if I say no and I stick to my guns, I'm going to get to get him. And

Speaker 5 he says, Al, we're still missing another body. We still need to bring more Rangers in.
And you know, we're going to have about a 20-minute window of weather. The 60s can't take in the Rangers.

Speaker 5 Only you can. So this has all got to happen between two storms, you know, rainstorms.

Speaker 5 I thought about it. He was right.
There was no choice here. They had to pick him up.
So I said, all right, I'll agree to that, but I'm planning the mission.

Speaker 5 And the 60 guys were like, hell yeah, right?

Speaker 5 And so

Speaker 5 I had to plan this very, very extravagant fires mission to allow the 60s to get in unmolested. Because once again, they now knew that we knew where Luttrell was.

Speaker 5 We were securing him and they knew we were going to come. You know, there was intercepts.
They knew we were coming. So I talked to the AC-130 crew.
you know, the pilot and the sensor operator and the

Speaker 5 A-10 pilots. We sat down at a table.
I laid out my map. I said, here's what I'm trying to do, right?

Speaker 5 I want to sequence in the 61st from this direction over here.

Speaker 5 He's going to come in, but before he gets there, before they even hear him, I want you to lay fire on these guys like they've never seen, right, and the enemy positions.

Speaker 5 And then,

Speaker 5 two minutes out, he's going to call two minutes. And you're going to lift and shift fire.

Speaker 5 And what I want is the biggest, baddest explosions on a ridgeline having nothing to do with us, but that's observable, right? So it's a distraction.

Speaker 5 I want people to go, you know, they're over here, a little misdirection. What's going on over here? Holy crap, that's a big explosion.
And that's what Lattrell talks about in his book.

Speaker 5 He's like, oh my God, the explosions were huge.

Speaker 5 And so the 60 comes in, and once he's on the ground, they start shooting in behind him so that if he had got past somebody that now knows he's coming out, their position sort of templated positions.

Speaker 5 And then he calls, you know, ready to depart. They shift fire.
They blow up another freaking ridgeline. He goes out.
I come in. They shift fires and lift fires for me.
I put in the Rangers.

Speaker 5 And this choreography was probably one of the most beautiful synchronizations I've ever done, you know, with the fire's platforms, you know, and because they knew what I wanted and I didn't ask for a certain ordinance, which is what I wanted to do.

Speaker 5 I wanted to say, I want 40 millimeter here in case there's, you know, tarps with dirt on it. And I just said, look, I need terrain denial.
I need, you need detraction, whatever it is.

Speaker 5 And they said, oh, well, we'll just do, you know, 40 millimeter here, 25 millimeter here. We used 105 on this.
A10 will drop a 500-pounder here. And they sequenced it all out for me.

Speaker 5 And it all worked out. And we got them out of there.
And then, I don't know, a day or two later, we found the last body and then started to withdraw everybody.

Speaker 5 And it took two weeks. It's the hardest flying of my life.
And so we go, we do a memorial service.

Speaker 5 Everybody does our eulogies.

Speaker 5 And we're a bagram. Now, this whole time, mind you, I've been a machine.
You know, externally, people are just, wow, Al's just doing it, right?

Speaker 5 Which is my goal.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 when we're done now,

Speaker 5 all the bodies and the survivor are out of there. I walked over between two B-huts, right? These plywood buildings in the shadows.
I put my back against it, slid down, and

Speaker 5 just cried.

Speaker 5 You know, I finally was able to

Speaker 5 let it go.

Speaker 5 And what's funny, I don't know if it's funny, but a couple of weeks later, I'm headed home.

Speaker 5 And it's me and one of the crew chiefs, one of the junior E-4, right? And we're stopped in Amsterdam for waiting a flight.

Speaker 5 I was like, hey, let me buy you a beer, right? So we sit down and he's like, sir, I got to tell you,

Speaker 5 I was scared. I was super scared.
And I was like, he goes, I don't know how you did it. And I said, Are you kidding me? I was scared

Speaker 5 out of my skin. He's like, what? You didn't show it.
And I said, if I showed it,

Speaker 5 would you just,

Speaker 5 you know, been happy? He's like, no.

Speaker 5 All right. Well, there's a leadership lesson for you.
Sometimes you just got to do, you know, you got to put on that face. And, you know, I was able to cry about it afterwards.

Speaker 5 But, man, that was tough. Toughest, toughest flying I ever did.

Speaker 3 Damn, Al.

Speaker 5 Yeah. So luckily, you know, I mentioned I, for years, I've been trying to meet Marcus.

Speaker 5 We just haven't crossed paths. And I finally connected with him, and I'm going to meet him next month.

Speaker 5 It might be before this podcast airs, but it'll be fun. I really want to

Speaker 5 see him. I want to give him a big hug.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 So I'm happy for you, man. Yeah.
Thanks.

Speaker 3 This seems like a really weird point to end it.

Speaker 3 But I just

Speaker 3 want to show you

Speaker 3 And uh

Speaker 3 I've never brought this up before, but uh

Speaker 3 if you look back there at that flag

Speaker 3 that

Speaker 3 is um

Speaker 3 I got that from my best friend and uh

Speaker 3 his name was Gabe Occardi and uh

Speaker 3 those were

Speaker 3 Those were his teammates, uh

Speaker 3 the SEALs that went down

Speaker 3 and Turban 33.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 he was on

Speaker 3 part of that recovery op.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 it's my understanding that the Rangers

Speaker 3 secured the crash site. Am I correct on that? The crash site, yeah.

Speaker 3 And he was good friends with one of those Rangers.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 if you look below Golf 12,

Speaker 3 there was a belt of 60 ammo.

Speaker 3 And that came out at Turbine 33.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 that ranger gave it to Gabe

Speaker 3 and told him that

Speaker 3 that was the only thing that wasn't burnt up in that crash.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it was bad.

Speaker 5 So Trey, my good friend, he sat, you know, this far away from me, you know, at back at home at our desks. And

Speaker 5 his wife Leslie is great she lives here in this area and she asked me for a piece of the aircraft so I asked somebody and Rangers gave me a piece of

Speaker 5 this little bracket

Speaker 5 I didn't know what it went to right it just was a sheet metal bracket it was burned I gave it to her

Speaker 5 And about a week later,

Speaker 5 I was flying

Speaker 5 and I was just sitting there, you know, and you get these little,

Speaker 5 you know, the foot pedals and there's like little slides for your heels to go back and forth. And I was just not paying attention.
And I looked down

Speaker 5 and there's that bracket, you know, obviously for my aircraft. And I almost puked because to know what it took to get that bracket

Speaker 5 out on the mountainside was just

Speaker 5 it just tore me up. And I just looked at it and I was like, really?

Speaker 3 Damn.

Speaker 5 I was like, hey, man,

Speaker 5 I'm incapacitated for a minute. And he's like, what's up? I was like, I can't talk.

Speaker 5 A couple minutes later, I was able to say, yeah,

Speaker 5 that's that.

Speaker 5 But,

Speaker 5 you know, it's the kind of, it's the risk we take. You know, I mean, you look at extortion, you know,

Speaker 5 as even worse, you know, but it's got its own set of circumstances, as does every situation. And the cool thing for me, since we're steering toward the end, is that

Speaker 5 though I have maybe a little regret here and there,

Speaker 5 I think regret is for the uncommitted.

Speaker 5 And I was committed to the job, to the lifestyle, to my air crew, to my customers. And you know, maybe I didn't prioritize my family the way I should have.

Speaker 5 But we did what we had to do, which

Speaker 5 I'd probably do it all again.

Speaker 5 I might make some minor adjustments and see if I could fix some things here and there.

Speaker 5 But essentially, all the big stuff, I would do the same.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 the people I worked with, you know, the ground forces were amazing. The air crew,

Speaker 5 the strength of the families that did do well.

Speaker 5 Mine wasn't as strong as it could be, but the others

Speaker 5 did well.

Speaker 5 And though they may have challenges that I don't know about,

Speaker 5 You know, we all did what we had to do, which is really is what makes that damn fall of Afghanistan so difficult

Speaker 5 You know, but I don't want to go down that path at this point. I'd like to

Speaker 5 end on a note of, you know,

Speaker 5 the Night Stalker Creed, you know, the very first thing, you know, it's like, or the

Speaker 5 last creed part is, you know, I serve with a memory that those who have come before, for they loved to fight, fought to win, and rather die than quit. And

Speaker 5 that's it.

Speaker 3 Man,

Speaker 5 Al,

Speaker 3 you're a hell of a dude, man.

Speaker 5 Ah, geez.

Speaker 5 Well, this was fun. You know, it's too bad we got to talk about

Speaker 5 the other thing first, but maybe another time I'll tell you the Santa story. But it's a little bit lighthearted.
But this is good.

Speaker 3 Man,

Speaker 3 thank you for being here, brother.

Speaker 5 Thanks for having me. And it's

Speaker 3 man, that was heavy. And,

Speaker 3 man, I'm just really happy that we met. And

Speaker 3 I'm honored. And

Speaker 3 I hope to see you again, man.

Speaker 5 I'm sure you will.

Speaker 3 Tomorrow's good.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 5 You're right.

Speaker 3 I will see you tomorrow at the All-Scary Foundation event. But,

Speaker 3 you know, for a guy that's been through so much.

Speaker 3 You seem to be in great spirits. And

Speaker 3 I don't know. Maybe.

Speaker 5 No, and I am. And I attribute that, you know, once again, the cadets that kind of gave me that positive attitude again.

Speaker 5 And the wonderful wife that I have now and the friends and family, you know, and my kids are great, grandkids.

Speaker 5 You know, I sit out at home, you know, I've got a little five-acre wooded area up in upstate New York, and I sit out on the deck and I watch the birds.

Speaker 5 I got bird feeders, and I watch a little pond, and I take great joy in nature, you know, watching the birds do their thing. And it's like, oh, the geese, they're like Chinooks.

Speaker 5 Oh, watch them do their thing. You know, and then the wood ducks, they're like blackhawks, you know, and I just imagine

Speaker 5 techniques that

Speaker 5 you could take and use them against the enemy because it's like, oh, man, I was going to shoot that squirrel that keeps eating the bird food. But he keeps, he lasts just long enough.

Speaker 5 And before I can get the rifle up, you know, he's gone. All right.
So you do that with the bad guys, right? The idea is, you know, don't give them a chance to shoot at you.

Speaker 5 But listen, I enjoyed it. I mean, 17 years in the 160th and finishing up the way it is now.

Speaker 5 And, you know, writing the book was really good. Put a lot of things in context.
I don't know if it was, people asked me all the time if it was therapeutic.

Speaker 5 I don't know, I'd say it was therapeutic, but it did put things in context of timelines of when, you know, Linda had problems, when I should have known things, and when big events happened.

Speaker 5 But, you know, the Night Stalkers are an amazing organization and they support some of the best ground forces in the world and they pride themselves on that.

Speaker 3 That is what I do.

Speaker 3 It was an honor to work with you guys and it's an honor to have you here. And

Speaker 3 man, dude, just tons of love to you.

Speaker 5 Thank you.

Speaker 5 I'm seriously.