467 - Bernie Sanders

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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Tim Dylan Show.

The book is Fight Oligarchy, Bernie Sanders.

It is out everywhere.

You can get it on Amazon.com.

You can go to a local bookstore, which is always a good idea.

Support a local bookstore.

And I'm sure the author of this book will appreciate that.

Bernie Sanders, Senator, thank you for coming.

My pleasure.

Thanks for having me.

I really appreciate it.

This book, when you walked in, we talked about it is not big, but

it is something that you've been talking about for many, many years.

What is the importance of writing this now?

Because you just got off a tour with the same name about fighting oligarchy.

I think, Tim, this is kind of an unprecedented moment in American history.

And I think what the book touches on are issues that the media in general, my colleagues in Congress, are not very comfortable dealing with.

And that is power and wealth.

Who owns the country?

How's that?

Pretty simple question.

Who really has the power?

And what we are looking at right now is a moment in history where we have more income and wealth inequality than we've ever had.

And I think what the American people have got to decide is whether they are comfortable with a situation in which one person, Mr.

Musk, owns more wealth than the bottom 52%

of American households.

Is that really what America is supposed to be about?

Top 1% owns more wealth than the bottom 93%.

And while the very richest people in America are becoming phenomenally richer, 60%

of our people are living paycheck to paycheck.

It's a huge problem.

And I think that most Americans would hear those numbers and think that there's a big problem, where you have one person controlling more wealth than 52% of the country, which is probably around 150 million people,

maybe more.

And that also is a huge problem for democracy.

There's a huge problem for democracy.

Trump,

Kamala Harris, anybody in my lifetime that has been

outside of yourself, that has been a contender for the presidency from a major political party is backed usually by the same groups of people.

They're very wealthy

lobbyists, donors.

The donor class is incredibly powerful.

You know, the landmark Supreme Court decision to regard

political donations as speech,

right?

Citizens United.

Citizens United, thank you.

The name escaped me.

I can donate as much money as I I want to a candidate, and it's considered speech.

That's right.

Where did we go wrong?

Was it always

as bad as it is now?

Look,

people with money always had power.

But Citizens United Supreme Court decision opened the door in creating a very corrupt, corrupt campaign finance system.

And

you said it all.

Right now,

in the Republican Party, Mr.

Musk himself contributed $270 million to help elect Trump.

And then he was given the opportunity to be the most powerful person in government for many, many months.

Democratic billionaires play a very important role in selecting who the Democratic candidates are, and in a sense, through their money, kind of controlling what those candidates will stand for and what they will fight for.

So the power of money money right now, today,

is extraordinary in both political parties.

And if we're going to save American democracy, we've got to get rid of this, in my view, you've got to get rid of this campaign, this Citizens United Supreme Court decision, and you've got to move to public funding of elections.

So in other words, if you want to run against me, I shouldn't be able to outraise you 10 to 1 or 50 to 1.

I do that.

I'm going to beat you every time.

All right.

You show that you have support.

You deserve a certain amount of public funding.

I will get the same amount of funding.

Go for it.

Your idea is better than mine.

Then you win the election.

Let's have campaigns based on ideas, not billionaires putting huge amounts of money into ugly 30-second ads.

For the Supreme Court to reverse the Citizens United decision, in your estimation, what would have to happen?

Well, this Supreme Court ain't going to do it.

Right.

We're going to have to, the congressional action, we could do it through Congress.

And how would you do it through Congress?

Well, you do it through legislation, basically,

which says that you outlaw super PACs, among other things.

That's the first thing.

Who are the main opponents of this in Congress?

If this were to come on the floor, I'm not asking you to call out names.

Well, I'll call out names.

Mitch McConnell was one of the leaders in the effort.

Right.

As a Republican.

But the big money interests love this.

Why wouldn't they?

If you're a billionaire, you want to pick your candidate for president, hey, what's a few hundred million dollars to you?

It's a great, they love it.

Money talks, and they like that process.

Is the Democratic Party,

in your view, a bigger obstacle

to

your ideas becoming mainstream than the Republican Party?

No.

Look, the Republican Party in the last 15 years under Trump has undergone a major transformation.

It used to be kind of a conventional George W.

Bush, a center-right party, right?

That's what it was.

It represented the wealthy,

corporate interests, banks, et cetera.

What Trump has done is really transformed that party.

He won more working class votes than did Kambana Harris.

And he has created in the Republican Party a right-wing extremist party.

And also what worries me is not only their ideology, is this cult of the individual.

Do you know what I'm talking about, Mitcha, Tim?

Explain it.

What I mean is

look, it's one thing.

You're a Republican.

I'm a Republican.

You're a Democrat.

I'm a Democrat.

We argue amongst ourselves.

Your job is to represent your congressional district, your state, if you're in the Senate.

Right now in the Republican Party, with very few exceptions, and there are some,

they follow what Trump says and they are afraid to move in any different direction.

I'll give you one example, a very clear example.

A guy named Tom Tillis.

That name meant anything to you?

Yeah.

Tom is a conservative

senator from North Carolina.

So the guy read, made the mistake of actually reading this big, beautiful bill that Trump brought forth.

He concluded, he says, it's going to be a disaster for North Carolina.

Hundreds of thousands of people are going to lose their health care.

Healthcare premiums are going to soar.

I can't vote for this.

The next day,

Trump was all over social media attacking this guy, and the billionaires were saying, we are going to spend unlimited amounts of money to defeat you in your primary.

A day later, Mr.

Tilla said, bye-bye.

I'm out of here.

I don't need this crap.

And he retired.

He retired.

Yeah.

Because he was going to face a very, very difficult primary.

And that's what it is right now you are a congressman you kind of disagree with Trump on this are you really gonna open your mouth and have Elon Musk saying okay we're gonna primary you my guy's gonna get 50 million dollars right

my my my wonder is because I look at and I agree with you and everything you just said 100%

the Republican Party has become a cult of personality when somebody goes, we're going to release the Epstein files, and then they don't.

And then everybody moves on and then they go, what about Jimmy Kimmel?

Yeah, 100%.

My question, though, is the climate in which,

because there's no doubt the Republican Party's undergone a transformation.

But also the Democratic Party seems to have

undergone a similar transformation away from working people and towards college-educated,

you know, credentialed,

you know, managerial types that, you know, have four-year degrees, have graduate degrees, live in urban centers, are more concerned with social politics than they are economic politics.

And the Democratic Party seems to have diverted a lot of energy from the economic message that you championed into kind of the social justice sphere, which has proven pretty unpopular with a lot of those working class voters that went to Trump.

All right.

Let me answer you by saying yes and no.

Okay.

How's that?

It's a great answer.

It's a great answer.

Yeah, after all, I am a United States president.

What do you expect from me?

Yes and no is a good answer.

All right, let's start it off.

50 years ago, when Harry Truman was president, certainly when FDI was president, you walk out on the street, you say to somebody, which political party in America represents the American working class?

Answer, Democratic Party, right?

Everybody knew that.

Yes.

That was the answer.

In the 1970s, some Democratic leaders became very, very smart, you see.

And they said, hey, Republicans are getting all of this money from corporations and the rich.

What are we knocking our brains out?

Why don't we do the same, right?

Right.

Let's start hustling some money from big money interest.

And that began the process.

of moving the Democratic Party away from the working class of this country.

Now, when we talk about social issues, I think the Democrats deserve credit for fighting for women's rights, which I happen to believe is extremely important, the right of women to be able to control their own bodies.

And

for a lot of reasons,

grassroots activism, the women's movement, and the Democratic Party, we have made some real progress.

You know, like 40 or 50 years ago, you looked at Congress, there were almost no women there at all.

Yeah.

No women governors, et cetera.

Right now, you got women who are cops, they're sheet metal workers, they're United States Senate.

We have made progress.

Democrats deserve credit for helping to do that.

In terms of ending bigotry, look, I'm a little bit older than you, but I can remember when I was a kid, no great secret, if you're black in the South,

massive amounts of segregation, you couldn't drink at a bloody water fountain, your kids couldn't go to an integrated school, you know, the civil rights movement, Dr.

King and others, along with Democrats, Lyndon Johnson, et cetera, helped end bigotry in this country.

At least took us a long way to ending bigotry.

I think that's important.

Gay rights.

Hey, how many years ago?

30 years ago, would you ever believe that we have gay marriage in our country?

No, I mean, and those things are all 100%

very good things that happened.

But I do look at the last election, and I think there seems to be, and you may agree, an outsized focus

on cultural and social issues that to many people are a luxury.

And not to everyone, but to a lot of people, they are a luxury.

Fair point.

Fair point.

Yeah.

Okay.

So the point is not that fighting for women's rights or ending racism in this country or homophobia, those are good things.

But if your point is that in that whole process, the Democrats more or less turn their backs on the working class of this country and the enormous crises facing working people, I would agree with you if that's your point.

Chris Hedges, who's a writer, has described it as you have the Republican Party, which is a party about oligarchy, where you have very powerful individuals.

Some of them own companies.

Some of them run hedge funds or private equity or whatever it is.

And they have tons of power.

And the Republican Party seems to have embraced that.

You see all of the tech people lining up with President Trump.

But Chris Hedges has described the Democratic Party as more of a corporation where you have a lot of wealthy interests that have gotten together.

And while it's not as unpredictable and chaotic as a bunch of different oligarchs, it also immiserates the lives of people because the core economic concerns of the population on issues like healthcare, housing,

aren't being addressed.

Absolutely.

So my question to you is,

you know, for example, there are a lot of ideas that a lot of people can get behind.

One of the things I think that hurts the Democratic Party is the perception of that party as not being

fully competent when it comes to public safety.

There's a lot of cities in America that are primarily run by Democrats.

that are

cities that you would, large swaths of those cities, you wouldn't want to live in uh there are tent cities there are people out and using drugs and overdosing and there is crime and there are home invasions businesses are fleeing those cities and once vibrant city centers of places like portland or san francisco although san francisco is getting a little better now because of ai companies moving in but once vibrant american cities have have become

you know places that people wouldn't want to live and a lot of people associate that with democrats um

you know

experimenting with programs that get rid of bail

or um prioritizing someone's right to not feel

uh like they're being you know their rights are being infringed on with the greater good of keeping the streets safe and the worry with mamdani who I think says a lot of good things, the worry with him from a lot of people that I talk to is that

he

doesn't, that his policies are going to increase

crime in New York City.

Because what he's going to do is instead of, he's going to take money from the police and he's going to fund these,

you know, people that are, you know, he wants people to go out that are not police, that are not trained in the use of deadly force, and maybe they're trained in mental health, you know, or other schools of thought, and they're going to confront people.

All right.

Mamdani can speak a lot better for himself than I can.

I'm supporting him.

In fact, I'll be back in New York City Sunday to do a rally with him.

I hope very much he wins.

I think he has the chance.

Look, between you and me, governing any major city today is an enormously difficult job.

You've got to be a little bit crazy to even want to take that job.

Agreed.

All right.

But I think this is, I've gotten to know him in the last few months.

He is a really smart guy.

He is very serious.

The first time I talked to him, you know, we talked about when I was mayor of Burlington, Vermont, and he talked about governing.

All right.

How do we bring together the kind of

organization, the kind of people that we need to be,

to have an effective governance?

So I think some of what some of those folks are saying, I think he is very cognizant of the crime issue, very cognizant of the homeless issue.

But we are dealing not only in New York City, but all over this country with very serious problems.

You've got 800,000 people who are homeless, right?

So what do you do?

You've got a serious drug problem all over this, you know, terrible drug problem.

What do you do?

Your point, I think, is a very valid point.

Is the answer to allow people to be yelling and screaming and shooting up downtowns all over America?

Is that the answer?

I don't think so.

All right.

But let's talk about what the answer is.

In terms of the police, I think what some people are saying when we talk about police reform, police have an enormously important role.

And when i was mayor of burlington vermont i got endorsed for the first time by by the patrolman's association the police union got endorsed again and again and again i you know i work with the police they are a very important part of any good city uh but there are things for example do you need to have a cop if somebody overdoses what's the proper response is it necessarily a police officer if somebody is having a mental breakdown out on the street do you need necessarily a police officer a lot of people would say yes because that person poses a public safety it depends on the situation yeah It depends on the situation.

But what you want to do is make sure you're utilizing your police in the most effective way that they are trained to react to.

That's what the issue is.

And people can disagree on that, but I don't think anybody that I know who is serious about governance does not understand that we have a serious crime problem and that we've got to deal with it.

But let me switch gear if I might for a little bit, Tim.

You know,

what I want to do, and the reason I wrote that book, is to

ask questions that are not asked terribly often in our country among the ruling class of America.

And that is,

we are today the wealthiest nation in the history of the world, right?

Yes.

Okay.

If...

We are the wealthiest nation in the history of the world, one might assume that we have the best health care system in the world, our kids are getting the best education in the world, that our people are living in great affordable housing, that our children are eating nutritious food,

etc.

But nobody believes that is the case because it's not.

And the question we have to ask ourselves is why is that happening?

And what do we have to do in order to make it happening?

Make it happen.

And to my mind, what you are dealing with right now in an unprecedented way is a relatively small number of extraordinarily wealthy, mostly big tech type guys,

who not only have an unbelievable amount of wealth, they have extraordinary power, and also

they kind of believe that they have the right to rule, that they have some kind of divine right, and that there should be very little accountability toward them.

And in their powers, we discussed a moment ago, they and other billionaires have a huge impact on the political process.

So the interesting thing to me is, you know, people say, well, Bernie, don't we have a divided country?

And the answer is, yeah, we do on many issues.

But you know what?

On many other issues, Tim, we do not.

You go out on the street and you ask people, is the American healthcare system working?

And people look at you and say, you're crazy.

Of course it's not working.

All right.

Should healthcare be a human right?

Should all people have health care?

Yeah.

Yes.

Okay.

That's what most Americans say.

Example.

My brother is seven years older than I.

We grew up here in New York City, Brooklyn.

Back then, so we're talking 70 years ago, he went to college, Brooklyn College, a very good college.

You know how much you paid?

How much our family paid for tuition at Brooklyn College?

$1,800.

No, zero.

Really?

Yeah.

Wow.

And if you go to the, during that time, you go to the University of California, one of the great public universities in the world, you know what tuition was?

Zero.

State colleges, tuition was zero.

Today, people cannot afford to send their kids to college.

Every psychologist in the world tells you that zero through four are the most important years of development, intellectual and emotional, for children, right?

Yeah.

How's our child care system doing?

Terrible.

That's right.

Yeah.

It's terrible.

We're paying, you want to be a child care worker?

Good.

We'll pay you 15 bucks an hour with terrible benefits.

You're doing some of the most important work in the world.

So the issue that we have, you know, education, there was a study came out a few months ago.

Our kids in America today rank something like 37th in the world

in science and reading and writing and all that stuff.

I'm shocked it's that high.

I've spoken to some of them.

I, you know,

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Steve Bannon, who you and him do not share many views, but you do share a few.

Steve Bannon has suggested seizing SpaceX, deporting Elon Musk.

Like, here's my question:

a lot of these oligarchs are very powerful, unless we're willing to use some type of force and some type of legal means,

how in God's name is?

Good question.

Right?

Good.

All right.

Let's be.

I'm not going to seize them.

Unlike the president of the United States, I kind of believe in the Constitution and the rule of law.

Agreed.

All right.

But, but there's always a but.

All right.

Here's the but.

Yeah.

The but is, and let me be as clear as I can be.

Let's get him.

Musk has, I don't know, $400 plus billion dollars.

He's on his way to become a trillionaire.

Yeah.

Do I think that is acceptable?

No, I don't.

So I think we should have at a certain point a tax on wealth.

My own guess is most people can make it on a billion dollars.

So I think you need, right now, you have billionaires paying an effective tax rate that is lower than a truck driver or a nurse.

Does that make sense?

Not to me, it doesn't.

And I think what we have got to do, which is, is not only have progressive taxation that say to these billionaires they can't have this extraordinary amount of wealth.

What we have got to do, which is a little bit harder, is to change the culture.

And that is, I respect people who are innovative, create new businesses.

I really do.

They make money.

God bless them.

Who cares?

Make money, get rich.

But there is a limit.

I think most of these guys get their satisfaction at creation.

They create all this kind of thing.

You want money?

Yeah.

But money as an end, really, what does the next $100 billion, if you're worth $200 billion now, do you really need another $100 billion?

Do the work that you got to do.

You know, great people like Jonas Salk, remember, developed the polio vaccine.

He gave it away.

Right.

The world remembers him as a great hero.

Right.

But Jonas Salk was not building an autonomous drone army.

And

a lot of these guys are.

Like, a lot of them have given up on America.

Good.

They don't care about the nation state.

They want to raise tremendous amounts of capital from the government.

They want to raid the treasury so they can build a arsenal of weapons.

for the Defense Department, maybe also for themselves.

They're all building these bunkers all over the world.

What do they know that we don't know?

Or, you know, not to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but Timmy,

you're getting, look, you're getting into some kind of creepy areas.

And I don't think you're crazy.

I mean, who the hell knows?

But maybe you are crazy.

I don't know.

But I don't think so.

But here's, look,

let's go there for a second.

All right.

Right now, you know, I know, presumably everybody knows, no great secret, that Musk and Bezos and Ellison and Altman and others are putting hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars into AI and robotics, correct?

Correct.

Okay.

Now,

does anybody really believe that these guys are doing it in order to improve life for the average American?

Zero people believe that.

Statistically.

It's funny that you say that.

Yeah.

I was at Davenport, Iowa.

Those four guys don't even believe it.

I was at Davenport, Iowa a couple of months ago, and we had a few thousand people out of the rally.

So I said, you know, I said, well, I just said that.

They're putting all those money.

Raise your hand.

There's thousands of people there.

Raise your hand if you think AI and robotics is going to help the working class of this country.

In a room of several thousand people, two hands went up.

So people understand,

you know, and what are their goals?

What are they trying to do?

And this is where it really becomes kind of creepy.

In my view, And I don't claim to be the world's greatest expert,

but what you're going to see with AI and robotics is the displacement of millions and millions of people from the jobs that they have.

You know, I want to see manufacturing rebuilt in America, but for a worker, it's not going to mean anything if robots are doing the work.

You know, we want to see young people start their own small businesses, et cetera.

But it's going to be incredibly hard when we see more concentration of ownership and when entry-level jobs are going to be done by AI.

So you're looking at a revolution, a huge

economic transformation, cultural transformation of our society.

Who is determining what's happening?

You have much say in it?

No.

No.

I've got a handful of people who are really determining the future of the world.

That's scary stuff.

Well, I want to talk about for a minute, because Trump's main issue was immigration.

The migration seems to be the biggest issue in the UK election.

It was the biggest issue in the U.S.

election.

It seems to be a massive issue all over the world.

And I wanted to talk.

I don't like the ice rates.

They're barbaric.

I think showing up to a college graduation and deporting somebody who's there to watch his daughter graduate from college or high school, whatever it is, is inhumane.

But I will point to an article from 2007 in the Wall Street Journal about the Kryger poultry processing plant in Georgia.

And what it was, was after

a raid, you had

the owners of that company were forced to hire American workers, a lot of them were African American workers, and then raise wages to around $7 to $9

per hour.

And this was the direct result of not having a pool of undocumented labor.

I think a lot of people don't like to see people zip tied in the middle of the street, but they do look at the Biden administration letting in 10 million people and they're suffering and their health care doesn't exist or is too expensive.

And they're looking at all the people coming in and the justifications for that, that these are all jobs Americans won't do.

The service industry, you know, whether it's manufacturing or landscaping or whatever it is, these, these jobs, because this is what I've every ever since I've grown up, we've always heard that.

These are jobs Americans won't do.

Mark Andreessen said recently that the only jobs that won't be replaced by AI are venture capital, which is his job.

So my question is: is there a position that the Democratic Party can take that is obviously anti-people getting dragged out of their houses, but recognizes that citizenship should mean something, that we should have a border, and that

having laws that protect workers

is important and that people employing undocumented workers or illegal labor is driving down wages for Americans.

Aaron Powell,

you've asked a lot of very important questions, good questions.

Let's start off with the basic.

So long as we have nation states, right, which we have, you got to have borders, right?

If you don't have any borders, then you don't have a nation, right?

In a sense.

So has historically the United States done well on the Democrats and Republicans in protecting the border?

The answer is no.

Trump did a better job.

I don't like Trump, you know, but we should have a secure border.

And it ain't that hard to do.

Biden didn't do it.

Those before him did not do it.

We should have a secure border, period.

I think most people in the Congress agree with that.

Why don't you think he did it, just out of curiosity?

Pardon me?

Why don't you think Biden was more proactive with securing the border?

He did.

He did some things.

He was not.

I think by the end of his term, if my memory is correct, the number of illegal folks coming in had gone down.

But I'm not going to sit here and tell you that overall it was a good job.

It was not.

All right.

So that's point number one.

You need a border.

Let's have a border.

And we have certainly the technology and the manpower to make that happen.

Number two,

what happens?

What is the appropriate response to, we think there are about 10 million undocumented people in the country today, less than 3% of our population, okay?

There are estimates that are higher, but let's say it's 10.

Those are the best estimates I've seen.

Okay.

Why did those let's be clear, those people act, my father came to this country from Poland, came in legally.

They came in illegally, period.

Okay, it was illegal.

What are most of those people doing right now?

Are they working hard?

Good.

None of those people should be faulted for coming here.

Okay.

We should start faulting people like Steve Wynn, who run a billion-dollar hotel on

illegal labor.

And why aren't we enforcing e-verify?

Yeah.

Good.

All right.

Yeah.

All right.

Anyway, so you got these folks who came to this country the same reason my dad came to this country.

He grew up poor in Poland, came for a better life.

And that's why they drag their kids, you know, from Mexico, Guatemala, thousands of miles, you know, to have a better life to escape the violence and the poverty that they're in.

They're here now.

The truth of the matter is, and one of the things that I really, really dislike about Trump and what demagogues always do, is this country, as we've discussed, has enormous problems.

And what demagogues always do, instead of trying to deal with why we have those problems, what are the causes of the problem, what are the solutions, you blame a powerless minority.

In Europe in the 30s, it was the Jews, it was gypsies.

In this country, it was gays, it was blacks forever, you know, with Latinos, always somebody to blame, rather than dealing with the real issues.

So anyhow, you got roughly 10 million people in this country, most of whom, by the way, work very hard.

And according to a number of studies, the crime rate, you know, know, Trump goes around,

you know, talking about, you know, somebody does kill, you know,

commits a terrible, terrible murder.

Trump is talking about all the lawless, you know, disgusting subhuman human beings.

Look at this crime.

Truth is that the crime rate in communities of undocumented people is lower than the general average.

Do you know that?

Well, the crime rate should almost be none, right?

If we're bringing, if people are coming into America and they are, you know, coming here for a better life and they're properly screened, the crime rate should almost be nothing.

Well, it is.

It's low.

All I'm saying is this is not like, it's not like that.

Criminals, everyone's a drug out.

I don't think anyone thinks everyone is a criminal.

And I don't think that anyone, but we do have a ton of income inequality, as you've talked about.

So assimilating people into this economic structure is difficult.

It is inevitable that some people that cannot find work will...

turn to crime.

And I mean, that's just inevitable.

But my only point is this, you know, this is not a community that is prone to large amounts of crime.

All right, so what do we do?

You've got 10 million people here.

Most of them are working hard.

Your point, I think, is well taken.

A lot of employers exploit them.

And by the way,

often these people are paying Social Security payroll tax, paying Medicare payroll tax, paying other taxes, and they don't get the benefits for what they pay, by the way.

Right.

All right.

But this has always been a Republican issue.

Like, this is why I don't understand why the Democratic Party allowed the issue to be kind of

demagogued, because even, you know, yourself, you were out there advocating always for workers' rights.

And, you know, when somebody talked about open borders, you rightly said that, you know, this is something the Koch brothers would love.

They were huge proponents of immigration.

The Chamber of Commerce, huge proponents of immigration.

A lot of, you know, radical libertarians like the Kokes and others, huge proponents of immigration.

So

when they're bringing all these people in, and whether it's 10 million or more, I mean, there's probably, I mean, I think there there are credible estimates are a bit more, but I don't think it's necessarily about the exact number, but

why were Americans told at a certain point that

they

should

not consider certain blue-collar jobs worthy of their time?

They should take out student loans.

and

go to a four-year university.

And then a lot of those jobs that were, you know, ended up going to people that came into the country legally and the employers are paying a lot less money.

I think there's a lot of people that feel

that

these pro-business interests brought in a lot of people to increase the profits of their own companies at the expense of people that saw a lot of their jobs shipped overseas.

Well, there's a lot of stuff that's going on.

One of the things,

you know, in my view, I mean, for people like the Koch brothers,

that was their goal.

It was cheap labor.

You know,

but I think

where we are right now, I mean, is you have X number, whatever it is.

I think my understanding is about 10 million.

What do we do?

And the answer is, I think

right now, and where Congress has failed, although there have been bipartisan efforts, is obviously comprehensive immigration reform.

Right.

And in my view, a path towards citizenship.

And we have failed in that regard.

So,

you know, I think that right now

that is the goal that Congress should set upon itself.

I think that, you know, that is a terribly important issue that has to be dealt with.

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You know, listen, I think that most Americans,

not everyone, obviously, but most Americans feel that

people should live the lives they want to live as long as they're not infringing upon other people.

Where people do get understandably concerned is children.

And I think with the trans issue, you only seem to hear from the loudest voices on both sides, by the way.

People on the right that believe that there's that trans people shouldn't exist, and then people on the radical end of the trans movement that believe any questioning

of when younger people should be introduced to an idea or when medical intervention is necessary.

A lot of people

regard any question about those things as

transphobia or an attack.

Most people in in America don't want prepubescent children on puberty blocking hormones.

And this is by the polls, right?

Because they feel that kids are kids, they're young, they don't quite know what's going on yet.

And to make an irreversible medical decision at that age,

if you're encouraged to do so,

that to a lot of people feels like an infringement on their rights as parents.

And to me, I feel like it's one of the issues that the Democratic Party has seemed to have lost their way on because it has sucked the oxygen out of a lot of the conversations that you want to have, which are good conversations about a women's right to choose and gay rights and trans rights and all of these good things that should exist.

But when you have this issue about puberty blocking hormones, for children, it's such a controversial issue for so many people.

The answer is, yes, you're right.

Okay.

But the answer is, and it is important, and I think Democrats and perhaps myself have not done as good a job as we can in dealing with it.

What percentage of the population is trans do you think?

Probably 1%.

Maybe at most.

Yeah.

Today, 60,000 people every single year die because they can't get medical care.

60,000.

Yeah.

All right.

Today, we've got 800,000 people who are homeless.

Today, we're dealing with a climate crisis that could

wreak havoc over the years on our country.

So, I think you're right in saying, I think you're right, that the Democrats have allowed the Republicans to exploit those issues by not dealing with them effectively.

Well, they've also just refused to compromise.

I mean, these are unpopular issues.

Fair enough.

Biological men and women's sports, it's just an unpopular issue.

You know, child sex changes, no one wants this.

Very few people, very radical people.

And I understand that people have trans children, and I get it.

But,

you know, this has

tremendously hurt the electability of Democrats.

But I think the answer is yes, but the answer also is

why are we talking, are we not talking about some of the issues that I raised earlier?

Why are we not talking about the fact that we are the only major country on earth not to guarantee health care to all people?

Because the Republicans are demagoguing this one issue because it was handed to them on a silver platter by Democrats.

Well, all right.

All that I'm saying is

if this country can do whatever, I live 50 miles, I live in Burlington, Vermont, 50 miles away from the Canadian border.

You end up in a hospital in a month in Canada.

You know what the bill is when you come out?

A lot of money.

In Canada, a lot of money?

No, zero.

Oh, in Canada.

Sorry.

20 men in Burlington.

Burlington is a lot of money.

Where is this a lot of money?

All right, Canada.

They spend half as much per capita on healthcare.

Stop for a moment and think what it would mean to this country.

I'm talking to the people out there.

If you get ill,

you end up in a hospital, you don't have to pay anything out of your own pocket.

And as a nation, we end up in spending half as much as we're spending now per capita because the function of our healthcare system is not just to make the insurance companies and the drug companies such.

Do you know what that would do to America?

Do you know how many people, half a million people a year go bankrupt because of medically related debt?

People don't go into the doctor.

They can't afford to pay their co-payment.

Right.

All right.

It would be transformative.

What would it mean to America if we raised the minimum wage to a living wage?

We got millions of people, minimum wage in Washington now, federal minimum wage, seven and a quarter an hour.

All right.

You got millions of people working for starvation wages.

All right.

What would it mean if we raised the minimum wage to a living wage?

What would it mean in this country if you didn't have to pay 40 or 50 percent of your limited incomes on housing because we built millions of units of low-income and affordable housing.

Yeah.

Well,

what I'm saying is the Republicans, and I really do dislike this, if people disagree with me on healthcare, fine, let's debate the issue.

Disagree with me on economics, debate the issue.

But I really do hate demagoguery where you deflect attention away from the major crises facing large numbers of people.

Right now, as you know, We're, I think, in the 20th day of a shutdown.

You know what the issue is?

The issue is a very simple one.

If Trump Trump and his friends get their way, 15 million people will lose the health care they have today.

And according to studies, 50,000 of them will die unnecessarily every year.

And if you're on the Affordable Care Act, on average, your premiums will double.

Which is why I think a lot of people, because I agree, but a lot of people with an election with so much at stake were shocked that President Biden

was,

you know,

put out as the candidate with clear cognitive issues.

And then without a primary, Kamala Harris, who was relatively unpopular in the Democratic primaries, was then the candidate.

And she only had 90 days to sell herself to the American people.

And by the way, she did a decent job.

for having 90 days.

But the machinery of the Democratic Party allowed that to happen.

And this has nothing to do with you, by the way.

You're kind of, even though you're a Democrat, you're outside of that.

I'm an independent.

You're an independent.

You know, caucus with the Democrats.

No, for sure.

And, and, and nobody would hold you responsible for that at all.

But the machinery of the modern Democratic Party allows that to happen when an elect, and they tell us this election has the stakes have never been higher.

Democracy is on the ballot.

And then they allow this to happen.

How does that happen?

Why is there such a cover-up with Biden's mental decline?

Why is there no primary, a quick one even, after he is judged unfit to run?

Why is there no transparency there?

That's a huge problem.

And I think it delivered the country.

I mean, I know people blame five podcasters, but I think that process helped deliver the country.

Again,

let me just say this.

You know, I ran against the Combla back in 2020.

And I know her is not close, but I know her well, and she's an incredibly intelligent, focused person.

And I worked as hard as I could.

I ran all over the country to try to get her elected.

I think the reason that she lost that election gets back to the point we discussed at the beginning of this podcast, and that is money and politics.

Kamla did not run a campaign focused on the needs of the working class, didn't run a campaign focused on health care,

on economics and raising the minimum wage, on paid family and medical leave,

on housing, on all of the issues that working people are struggling with right now.

And I think her not focusing on those issues allowed Trump to win, in my view.

Right.

What do you think about this ceasefire or this peace deal?

Is this going to, this seems like maybe it's unraveling.

We don't know.

I hope it works.

You're right.

Let's hope to God.

Let me say a word on this because I've been involved in this a little bit, as you may know.

Hamas is a terrorist organization that committed an atrocity when it attacked Israel and killed 1,200 innocent men, women, and a lot of young people, took hundreds of hostages.

Israel had a right to defend itself as any country on earth does when you're attacked by anybody, especially a terrorist organization.

But what happened for a variety of reasons in Israel, having to do with Israeli politics and Netanyahu, is they didn't just go to war against Hamas, which was appropriate, they went to war against the entire Palestinian people.

And two years after that attack,

you have some 65,000, in a population, Tim, of 2.2 million, pretty small population, 65,000 people are dead, 140,000, 160,000 have been injured.

That's 10%

of the entire population, mostly women, children, and the elderly.

10%.

That equivalent in America would be 330,

33 million people killed or wounded.

And behind all of that was American money.

So to my mind, the first lesson to be learned is never again, and this is true under Biden, we beg Biden, did everything I could to say, Mr.

President, stop giving Detanyahu more and more military aid to destroy the Palestinian people.

And Trump came in, he continued the same process.

Now, thank God, we think a few days ago, they've reached a ceasefire.

Hostages were released, that's fantastic.

Prisoners were released.

Let's hope to God it holds.

And let's hope that the United States and the international community rebuild Gaza.

It's not just the dead and the wounded.

That whole area is flattened.

Aaron Powell, you have Miriam Adelson, who gave Trump a lot of money.

You have a lot of mega donors

that have given Trump a lot of money.

APAC's a very powerful lobbying organization that doesn't have to register as a foreign lobby.

Should America fundamentally re-evaluate its relationship with Israel?

Aaron Powell, I think the lesson here is that never again

well, never again should the United States be pouring in huge amounts of money to a country which is not only

acting in violation of international law, but in violation of American law.

It is in violation of American law to give money to a country which is restricting humanitarian aid, for example.

So we have given money to Netanyahu in violation of both international law and American law.

In my view, Netanyahu is a war criminal.

The people at the head of Hamas are war criminals as well.

I hope that is a lesson that we learn as a country.

Well, I mean, you can see right now that this is the biggest tension point in both the Republican and Democratic Party when it pertains to young voters.

Young people who can't afford a house.

are living in a country where

they are graduating college and the job market is tough, don't understand why billions and billions of dollars are going to Israel.

And by the way,

they're also understanding we're in now year three or four of this Ukraine conflict with Putin.

And I think a lot of them are struggling to understand why billions and billions of dollars are going to the Ukraine and why Trump is now telling Zelensky, go win all your territory back

instead of trying to force some type of peace.

I don't see the two issues as comparable.

I think, as I said, Israel had a right to...

Well, I mean, they're both foreign conflicts

that younger people are wondering

why their money is going to negotiate a land dispute in northern Ukraine.

I don't call it a land dispute.

Well, it eventually will end up being some type of exchange of territory or it's a border dispute.

I think Putin is a disgusting human being.

And by the way, what is not widely perceived or known, do you know, to the best of my knowledge,

unbelievably, hundreds of thousands of young Russians have died in that war.

Well, everyone, so many people have died, and that's why a lot of Americans don't want to be part of it.

You know, I mean, we don't want our money going to increase the likelihood that more people are going to die.

I think my own...

A lot of people are making money.

You know, Putin's been able to reorganize the economy of his country as a wartime economy.

He's been able to evade American sanctions.

He's deepened his relationship with China, India, Brazil, the BRICS nations.

He's been able to do a lot of things that have probably increased his power base for now, maybe not long term.

But

is it smart to keep pouring money and military aid into this conflict with

America in the state that it's in?

I have talked to ambassadors from a number of countries in Europe, and their fear is that Putin has this

idea that he's going to rebuild the Russian Empire

and continue to advance.

And if he is not stopped at the Ukraine, other Eastern Europe countries will be next.

I think that NATO will be involved and maybe the United States and our troops as well.

The rebuttal to that would be he can barely win in the Ukraine.

So the idea that he's going to go march through Europe now, I mean, he can't even finish the job there.

All right.

Anyhow, I think this is a terrible guy who

invaded a country that should not have been invaded, and I think it has to be resisted.

That's my view.

At what point would you decide that it might be time to pull the plug on American funding for that war?

Would you go, would you commit American troops to fight Russia over Ukraine?

No, no, no, no, no.

Okay.

Absolutely not.

Would you give Zelensky long-range missiles capable of hitting Moscow?

No, I don't think you want to do that either.

But I think you don't want to see this terrible war with so many casualties even explode even further.

But I think the United States has got to use all of its influence to tell Putin to end this bloody war.

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How do you think America's relationship with Israel is going to change?

I think it is changing.

Yeah.

I think, as you've indicated, you got certainly in the progressive left community in America, which started off being sympathetic to Israel after they were attacked, that has

been completely changed.

And I think the point you made, maybe not widely known, is a lot of younger Republicans now, younger people, under 40, under 50,

no longer want to...

continue to support a government like Netanyahu.

Should APAC register as a foreign lobby?

APAC has played a terrible role.

That's a good question.

I don't know the answer to it, honestly.

But AIPAC has spread money around all over the place to right-wing Republicans, the liberal Democrats,

and they have played a terrible, terrible role in trying to win support for Netanyahu.

I think the very good news is their influence is beginning to wane.

I don't know if you've noticed it.

Even established Democrats are saying, well, thank you.

Not only don't I want you, I'm going to return your donation.

Sure.

I don't want any part of it.

And that is because I think the American people are disgusted with what has gone on in Gaza.

I think I want to

have a few more questions.

I think it's so interesting.

Again, I think, you know,

a lot of what you say is

so mainstream.

And yet you're portrayed in the media as someone who's on the fringe of American politics.

And that's that

this interview doesn't seem to be the case.

You're not saying tax people at 90%.

Maybe you believe that, but you didn't say that.

Well, I am saying that we shouldn't have people

more than a billion dollars.

I guess within the context of America.

I think a lot of people would say a billion dollars is fine.

I think a lot of people would say a billion dollars is fine.

And what I'm saying, by the way, Tim, is, you know, I talk to my European friends and they say, hey, Bernie, I don't want to hurt your feelings, but in Europe, you would not be considered all that radical.

Right, right.

No, and in America, maybe even not, you know,

but so

when you look at the UK, for example, and you look at the issues that they're having around migration, some of these issues are financial, some of them are cultural.

Some of these are cultural issues.

These are different groups of people learning how to live with each other.

That's right.

And,

you know, there is this knee-jerk reaction to call everybody a racist that has concerns about culture.

And I don't don't mean,

you know, people going like, I don't want to live with Muslims or I don't want to live with a,

obviously there is elements of racism to that.

But the United States, you know, when you have

large groups of people,

whether it's Qatar giving the president a plane or it's Israel going, we need more money, or it's the, you know, the governor of Minnesota, Jacob Freight, telling a Somali delegation, like, I'd love to go to Somalia.

One of the reasons I think Zoran's doing so well is he goes, I'm not visiting Israel.

I'm going to stay in New York.

And he's focusing on the issues facing.

There are people that believe, and not in a paranoid, racist, crazy way, but that groups of people are using and exploiting not only America, but other successful countries, Western countries, and that they're going in there and they don't care about the laws, rules, customs, culture of the country.

They're going in there to suck money out or they're going in there to establish a power base and dictate.

You know, a lot of people are worried about free speech.

A lot of people are worried about laws that, you know, are supposed to be protecting Jewish people, but they really are protecting criticism of Israel.

There's people that worry about, you know, Islamic groups that are demanding that certain laws be passed that restrict any criticism of

Islam.

How can we have these conversations where they're not where people aren't having these knee-jerk reactions about racism?

How can we say that we do have a civilization that believes in certain things?

And then if you come to it or you come to the UK, come to any country, you have to respect the laws, customs, and culture of that country.

You cannot turn

that country

into something that it fundamentally isn't, right?

You can't demand

and you invite me to dinner,

you are my host, right?

Right.

And I respect that.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's fair.

Yeah.

No one forces somebody to come to another country.

So, I mean, I think that basic principle is correct.

How do we figure out how, you know, because there's a lot of, you know, when Zoran says, I want $100 million to deal with legal disputes for undocumented people in New York, there are a lot of Americans and New Yorkers that go, why aren't we spending $100 million and investing it in the Bronx or Brooklyn or areas of America?

Like, it does seem to be some of the empathy that the Democratic Party used to have for citizens not having health care, it does seem to be always directed in the direction of immigration.

Well, Zaran is a, I'm sure, a Medicare for all advocate as well.

And, you know, we've talked about healthcare in New York City, et cetera.

And I think he's going to do a great job in trying to deal with the affordability issue here in the city.

But I think we're, as a nation, at a very

unprecedented moment in that you have a president who wants more and more power unto himself.

And I think it's important that we stop him and ICE from these terrible raids of throwing people into vans.

And I think that's what...

Zaran is trying to protect people who have lived in New York City for all over the country.

I see people all over the country for decades.

They're working hard.

He does not want to see somebody in a mask, pick them up, throw them into a trendy.

And I disagree with those ice rays.

But if we're encouraging people to

attack ICE or blockchain,

if we're not going to be able to do that,

that is being used as the pretext for these troop deployments.

What Trump is doing

is totally crazy.

I mean, he's trying to say that in Portland, Oregon, they are trying to overthrow the United States government.

No, no, no, no, I understand.

Really?

I understand that that's insane.

But I do think that Zoron,

if he goes to war with Trump on enforcing federal immigration law, will make New York a pretty crazy place to live.

Look, I think his focus and the reason, I think honestly, he's run a brilliant campaign.

He's a very, very intelligent guy.

I think he's focusing on how you can govern in a very difficult circumstance.

I think the focus on affordability, how you control housing prices in the city, how you make childcare available to more and more people.

Do you worry that he'll move to the center?

There was a, you know, there's reported that he had a meeting with David Oxelrod and the Obama people and stuff like that.

He talks to a lot of people, and I think that's a good thing.

No,

I got to tell you, I'm a fan of his.

You're a fan.

I've been really impressed.

You know, this is a guy.

What if he's toasting Jamie Dimon in two years?

What if he's in a ballroom?

I don't think that's going to happen.

Well, this is what happens sometimes.

And then somebody's in a ballroom with Jamie Dimon, and Zoran's going, Jamie, you know, when I got here, I was a skeptic, but you're my best friend.

And then they're on a yacht and it's going all over New York.

Between you and me, I do not think that that's going to happen.

I do hope Alexandria and I will be in New York City next week.

Is she running for president?

How about a unity ticket?

Marjorie and Cortez.

What about that?

Marjorie Taylor Greene in AOC.

You came up with that idea.

It's actually my idea.

It's not a bad idea.

Fighting Oligarchy is the book.

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Senator Bernie Sanders from Vermont, a consistent voice in American politics.

There's no one that doesn't respect you, by the way,

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Go out, read this book, including me.

And I appreciate you coming on and talking to us.

Read this book.

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All right.

So that we can start.

So we can discuss the book.

Bernie Sanders.

Thank you so much.

Thanks for having me.

Of course.

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