Ana Kasparian: Epstein Cover-Up, Israel Strikes Gaza Church, & the Great American Political Shift

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Speaker 2 So normally when I do an unconventional interview with like Putin or the president of Iran, people get mad and they ask, you know, why are you talking to him?

Speaker 2 This is one of those very rare, maybe unique circumstances where people are going to ask you

Speaker 2 why are you talking to him? Yeah. Yeah.
And people are going to get mad. People are going to get very angry.
I know.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 your producers had been reaching out trying to get me to talk to you for at least a year and a half. And my feelings toward coming on your show went from I would never in a million years

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 2 kind of giving myself the opportunity to listen to your podcast to figure out who you really are. Because of course, I had very strong thoughts about who you are.
Really?

Speaker 2 Yeah, but I realized that it was based on clips that I would watch of you that had gone viral.

Speaker 2 And they had gone viral because they were offensive or you had said something that was viral like syphilis is viral.

Speaker 2 I mean, mean, pretty much. I mean, you should think of it that way because it was mostly painting you in a very negative light.

Speaker 2 And to be sure, you and I have some pretty deep disagreements, but

Speaker 2 I think that some of what you've been talking about lately like hits at the heart of what I care most about. And that's the importance of this country representing the American people,

Speaker 2 the importance of the United States being a sovereign country that has politicians and a government that prioritizes the American people as opposed to a foreign government.

Speaker 2 And speaking out the way you've been speaking out about some of these these issues takes a lot of courage because it goes against the grain and it goes against, I mean, decades of propaganda and conditioning in American media.

Speaker 2 And so to me, that

Speaker 2 commonality that you and I share made me a lot more open-minded to coming on this show because I do think that

Speaker 2 Americans from across the political spectrum need to find areas of agreement, especially as it pertains to making this country better,

Speaker 2 so we can apply appropriate pressure on our politicians and get them to represent us, regardless of the corruption, regardless of the influence of foreign governments.

Speaker 2 At the end of the day, these politicians are nothing if it isn't, if it's if it weren't for the American people. Right.

Speaker 2 So, like, right now, what's really interesting is in Congress, it appears that there's this bipartisan effort to force a vote to release the Epstein files. Yes.

Speaker 2 And the only reason why that's happening is because there's a very loud and aggressive portion of the MAGA base that's demanding it, and they're not letting it go.

Speaker 2 And I commend them because I agree with them. I think we need transparency.

Speaker 2 We need to know whether or not we literally have members in our government or influential people, you know, in the periphery of our government who are pedophiles. I want to know.
I think that's fair.

Speaker 2 Yeah. It's interesting

Speaker 2 the framework that you laid out. The government of

Speaker 2 any country ought to be sovereign, which is to say it should make most of its big decisions on the basis of what's good for the people that it represents.

Speaker 2 And it's bad when foreign countries control your country.

Speaker 2 Those are not, those don't strike me as hateful statements at all. Those aren't expressions of animus against anybody, are they?

Speaker 2 I don't think they're hateful statements at all. I'm an American.
I love this country. I love the people in this country.

Speaker 2 And I don't want to live in this ridiculous like perversion of the American government where they pretend to represent us, but in reality, Americans are on the back burner.

Speaker 2 Our tax dollars are being taken from us, not to help Americans who need help, but to give all sorts of subsidies to private industries that are already doing. really well.
Okay.

Speaker 2 They don't need extra subsidies or tax cuts or things like that. But in addition to that, all the foreign aid that we're pumping into the Middle East, Israel, right?

Speaker 2 Oftentimes when we talk about foreign aid that goes to Israel, at this point, I believe it's about, what, $4 billion a year on top of all of the military aid that we've been pumping into Israel over the last two years.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's unacceptable to me that we're doing that. And in the backdrop of that, you have the United States Congress.
cutting $1.1 trillion to Medicaid. Really? That's the problem?

Speaker 2 That's where we need to cut funding from. By the way, also cutting funding to food assistance.

Speaker 2 How do you justify sending tens of billions of dollars to Israel in the last two years alone while targeting cuts to Medicaid and food stamps? It makes me beyond angry.

Speaker 2 I think it's so unbelievably unjust. And if you speak out about it the way I'm doing right now, I'm sorry, I'm getting like kind of aggressive.

Speaker 2 If you speak out about it like I am right now, people try to smear you as an anti-Semite. And you know what? I'm not an anti-Semite.
I know what's in my heart.

Speaker 2 And I'm not going to let those smears stop me from saying what I know is correct and what's morally just.

Speaker 2 Is it possible that

Speaker 2 people are slandered in order to prevent conversations like this from happening in the first place? So you said I was hesitant to come on the show.

Speaker 2 I mean, the reason we wanted to book you and a bunch of people who worked for me had the same feeling

Speaker 2 is that it was what you just said. Like we can disagree on all kinds of things, but if the fundamental orientation is the U.S.

Speaker 2 government ought to make a good faith effort to improve the lives of Americans, that's not a partisan statement. That's not a crazy out there sentiment at all.
And we saw that. It was like, oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 And then you're like, yeah, but he's a Nazi. I can't do the Nazi show.

Speaker 2 I mean, so you sort of want, like, I have all kinds of stupid opinions. I've said all kinds of stupid things.
I've had ugly opinions in the past.

Speaker 2 I'm not defending every opinion I have had or even currently have.

Speaker 2 I'm merely saying to reduce someone to a caricature is a kind of tactic to prevent anyone from having a like a real conversation with the person. It's meant to discredit.
And yeah, you're right.

Speaker 2 It's meant to stop these types of conversations from happening. Now, you are very conservative.
I'm not very conservative.

Speaker 2 I have some views that lean more conservative than progressives feel comfortable with, and that's okay.

Speaker 2 But at the end of the day, what drives my politics is this desire for everyone to thrive economically. And, you know, you've been speaking out about.
Well, how is that? So what is the difference?

Speaker 2 If I could, I mean, I would hope that would be like everyone's desire. It's not.
It's not. No.
Right. At all.

Speaker 2 But what, what does it mean to be cons, not to get too philosophical here, but what does it mean to be conservative or liberal? Like at this point.

Speaker 2 Well, I don't think that the political labels that we currently have in this country make much sense anymore, to be honest with you. So,

Speaker 2 but I'm talking about like traditional conservatism. You know, I believe in reproductive rights to a point.
Right. You know, I know that you're anti-abortion.
Big time. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So, like, that's a disagreement we have. And I'm not at all going to like come on this show and capitulate on my beliefs.
Right. But I think that those are important issues.
I'm not minimizing them.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 But I feel that we can't even really engage in a real debate about policy or specific specific issues unless we know we have a sovereign, we're living in a sovereign country and we have a government that actually has interest in representing us.

Speaker 2 Right. Because it doesn't, it doesn't really matter otherwise.
Right.

Speaker 2 If,

Speaker 2 you know, people keep voting for different things, but get the same result. Exactly.
Then the system is fake.

Speaker 2 And that's the point where people start to go crazy and do radical violent things, which I'm completely opposed to. I just want to say that at the outset, I hate violent radicalism more than anything.

Speaker 2 And I feel like that's the result of people realizing their system is fake. So you have to make it kind of real.
You're, you're right about that.

Speaker 2 And, you know, we've been seeing more and more political violence in this country and it's terrifying.

Speaker 2 I mean, I'm not justifying it, but I can explain why it's happening. Sure.
You know, and I don't want things to devolve further. And here's the other reason why I decided to come.

Speaker 2 So I knew that you moved here. You moved to like a rural part of the country.
And I live in a big city.

Speaker 2 And I think that living in a big city and spending most of your time in a big city kind of blinds you to the rest of America. A lot of Americans live in rural parts of the country.
Yes.

Speaker 2 And I want the opportunity to like speak to them, like get to know them, understand where their hearts and their minds are at.

Speaker 2 And so I saw it as an opportunity to like expose myself to people that I otherwise wouldn't get an opportunity to speak to. And

Speaker 2 you know, you, I think you've hired like drivers to bring people, you know, to where you're at for the airport yes yeah the airport's very far but um i love that because they're not like you know they're not uber drivers they're like unemployed loggers and stuff no but they are

Speaker 2 i i can't tell you how much i've enjoyed having conversations with them so uh one of the drivers who picked me up jen she mentioned the big beautiful bill that just passed and you know i can tell she identifies as Republican and she wasn't happy with that bill.

Speaker 2 And I suspected that most ordinary working class Americans, whether whether they're Democrats or Republicans, are not happy with that bill.

Speaker 2 Yes, you know, the $1.1 trillion in cuts to Medicaid, that's what she brought up. She brought that up, and I thought that was really fascinating.

Speaker 2 Now, if you talk to someone who identifies as a liberal Democrat, they'll probably think, oh, these Republican voters, they're so greedy. All they want is tax cuts.

Speaker 2 They want to cut the social safety net. But no, actually, when it comes to ordinary people, there's a lot of agreement, a lot of agreement.
A lot of people are suffering right now.

Speaker 2 And, you know, you have

Speaker 2 all these different industries, especially, you know, beginning in the 90s, offshoring, you know, all these jobs that have been destroyed.

Speaker 2 I mean, most people work in the service sector at this point and manufacturing jobs are gone. I think that's part of the reason why Donald Trump has been so appealing to the MAGA base.

Speaker 2 Without question. Right.
And so.

Speaker 2 I want ordinary people to just consider the contradiction here.

Speaker 2 So, if you're a liberal Democrat and you're under the assumption that Republican voters are just greedy and they want to cut the social safety net, why would they

Speaker 2 love Trump so much, who ran as an economic populist?

Speaker 2 Now, I don't think that Trump has carried out his promises because of, well, there's a lot of different examples I can cite, but the most recent is the so-called big beautiful bill.

Speaker 2 Yeah, there are some provisions in there, no tax on tips. It's going to be means tested and it also expires in four years.

Speaker 2 Whereas the tax benefits that disproportionately benefit the wealthy are permanent.

Speaker 2 The no tax on the elderly or Social Security, that also will expire and it's up to a certain amount. I think it's like $6,000, if I'm not mistaken.

Speaker 2 The child tax credit, I think, was just peanuts compared to what I think this country could afford in helping families. You want to encourage people to have kids.
Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2 Best way to do it is to create an economic situation where couples feel comfortable bringing life into this world. I agree.
You know?

Speaker 2 And then no tax on overtime. That's another example.
That's also means tested. And that's a provision that will expire in 2028.

Speaker 2 It's just interesting to see which provisions are permanent and which are set to expire in four years when, you know, Trump is done with his term.

Speaker 2 So if you really want to represent the working class, you got to put your money where your mouth is.

Speaker 2 And I haven't really seen it to the extent that Trump claimed he was going to help the working class in this country. Interesting.
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Highly recommended. So when did you

Speaker 2 like, have your views changed i have some views that have definitely changed yeah i wouldn't say that i like swung from far left to far right i don't know yeah i don't even know what that means actually i mean i i don't think i can answer the question so i don't know why i'm asking it of you but like what do the terms mean now and um i for whatever it's worth i've settled on people who are honest people who lie right and i've that that's like the only division maybe have the honest party the liar party or something you know in the future but um but clearly you've started thinking things or thinking through things that you hadn't before.

Speaker 2 And God bless you, that's like the greatest privilege of adulthood. You get to think for yourself.
It's happened to me a lot.

Speaker 2 But how did that start?

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, it started with,

Speaker 2 I.

Speaker 2 It started with like personal experiences and it often does, right? Like often your

Speaker 2 policy preferences will slap you in the face. And then you're like, oh,

Speaker 2 I don't like that.

Speaker 2 You're right. No, I get it.
You know, because sometimes there are unintended consequences. I'll give you a specific example.
So I was very much supportive of the defund the police movement in 2020.

Speaker 2 And it was because, you know, you see this video of a man like dying on camera. with a police officer refusing to like, you know, ease up on him.

Speaker 2 And it really made me angry. I felt that it was, whatever you think about George Floyd, I don't care, right? Like

Speaker 2 what was happening in that moment in that video was so disgusting to me and so unjust. And so I was like, no, I totally bought the narrative that it's not actually about like abolishing police.

Speaker 2 It's about, you know, taking some of that funding and investing in.

Speaker 2 social services or in social workers. So social workers respond to certain calls instead of the police.

Speaker 2 That actually has ended up being pretty disastrous in California, in Los Angeles in particular, because I've seen it firsthand. And you're from there.
I'm from there.

Speaker 2 My best friend since childhood, she's a social worker herself.

Speaker 2 And I've talked to other social workers about what their experience has been like. And they're like, I actually interviewed one for a piece I wrote for Real Clear Investigations.
And she told me,

Speaker 2 Look, it hasn't really worked out the way people have thought it would work out. Oftentimes we'll go to a call, and it's supposed to be a non-violent person, or yeah, a non-violent call.

Speaker 2 Someone's having a mental health episode. But they'll show up, and oftentimes, it'll be someone who does have a weapon.
It's not a gun, but it's maybe a knife, or and they feel

Speaker 2 threatened. So they have no choice but to call the police.

Speaker 2 And so, in 2021, the Los Angeles City Council, you know, was inspired by BLM and they decided to take $150 million away from the LAPD's budget and instead invest it in other services.

Speaker 2 It actually ended up being even more cost. We're spending more on police, more on the LAPD than we ever have, like record amounts.

Speaker 2 And the reason why is because You have to really ask yourself before you make these decisions, okay, do we need this many officers?

Speaker 2 Let's compare Los Angeles to other huge cities. What's the police officer or sworn officer to citizen ratio? And in LA, it's always been historically lower, much lower than other major cities.

Speaker 2 So at the peak of the LAPD and the number of sworn officers in the LAPD, we had about 10,000.

Speaker 2 After the cuts and after all the difficulty in recruiting new sworn officers, because people don't want to be police officers anymore for understandable reasons.

Speaker 2 It's not a a desirable job when you have people constantly, you know, talking about how terrible cops are. So now we have about 8,500.

Speaker 2 And as a result, the remaining sworn officers are working insane overtime, like crazy. Like we have one police officer in the LAPD.

Speaker 2 I think his name's Nathan Corey. He made $600,000 one year because of police overtime.
So right now, taxpayers in Los Angeles. $600,000? Yes, yes.
So So right now,

Speaker 2 taxpayers in LA are kind of confronted with this situation where they're paying far more for less as it pertains to policing.

Speaker 2 Since there is a shortage, there's longer wait times if you call 911 and you need help.

Speaker 2 Some people complain that they'll call. And if it's not, like, let's say someone was the victim of a burglary, obviously you're not in imminent danger.

Speaker 2 So they'll call the cops and hope that someone will show up, you know, take fingerprints and maybe find who burglarized them.

Speaker 2 They never do, but they don't show up for hours and people get really upset and they're like, why is this happening?

Speaker 2 And what's really interesting is I try to explain why it's happening and I get called all sorts of names for doing it, but I don't care. The truth is the truth.
Wait, wait, what do you, I mean, okay.

Speaker 2 First of all, why are you one of the only people willing to admit you were wrong about defund the police? Like, why were you willing to say, again, bless you, it's the beginning of growth.

Speaker 2 But I've done it myself many times. But why were you willing to admit that?

Speaker 2 Because at the core of who I am,

Speaker 2 I think as a journalist, you know, I didn't enter this line of work to be a mouthpiece for anyone. I really care about the truth.

Speaker 2 And I feel that if you want to live in a democracy, you have to make sure that people are getting accurate information to make the right decisions for themselves once they're casting a ballot.

Speaker 2 And so I felt angry because I felt misled by the media.

Speaker 2 And now, you know, it was partly my fault too, because I was in a bubble and I was only getting one side of every story.

Speaker 2 And even if I agree with that side, I should at least hear what the opposing argument is. And I wasn't going out of my way to do that before.
Now I do.

Speaker 2 And so I see things as far more complex and nuanced.

Speaker 2 And it's hard to make an argument that's going to appease any audience at this point, because I think a lot of Americans have been conditioned to be partisan and prioritize partisanship before truth.

Speaker 2 And I think truth is what will set us free genuinely. Truth will help us ensure that we have a better government.
And I'm sorry, one side or the other does not have a monopoly on the truth.

Speaker 2 They just don't. And one side might get something right one time.
The other side might have a good point when it comes to a different issue. And I think we just need to be open-minded.

Speaker 2 And more importantly, we need to have conversations with people.

Speaker 2 Because if you just rely on what the media is saying about a particular political figure or a particular media figure, why are you letting them? tell you what to think about individuals.

Speaker 2 Why don't you actually do a little bit of digging or have these conversations yourself and try to figure out who these people really are? You know, like the speech speech you gave at Turning Point,

Speaker 2 I,

Speaker 2 you said a few things in there that I might not agree with, but like the overall message was so courageous. And I never thought in a million years I would hear it at a conservative conference.
Never.

Speaker 2 It's just interesting. Well, I mean, you know, the truth is wherever it is and you try to recognize it, but I hope I'm going to give you my text and I want you to text me, if you will,

Speaker 2 criticism of what you're saying now. Okay.
Because I want to keep a list of of people who are offended by what you're saying just in my head.

Speaker 2 Like, how could anyone be offended by what you're saying now? Yeah. Well, I, it might not be.
I mean, you're not the criminal here. Yeah.
Well, let me just be honest with you.

Speaker 2 I think that most people who are going to attack me aren't even going to listen to this interview. It's just the fact that we're having a conversation with each other.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 I take offense to people trying to police who I can talk to. In fact, the more they try to police me, the more I want to talk to the person they forbid me to speak to.

Speaker 2 Honestly, I've always been like that. I've been like that since I was a kid.
My mom knows it better than anyone. I'm just a little bit rebellious and I don't like to be told what to do.
I hate it.

Speaker 2 And what to think. Yeah.
And who you can talk to. I mean, that's like the most, that's a core decision.
Who do I associate with? Yeah. Who are my friends? Who am I having dinner with? Who do I marry?

Speaker 2 I mean, if you allow other people to make those decisions for you, you're not free. No, you're not.
And, And,

Speaker 2 oh my God, what a terrible career path to be a journalist who doesn't get to have conversations with people that they're curious. I'm curious about you.
I am. You were a neocon.
Yeah, I was.

Speaker 2 It's hard to believe that. It is hard to believe that.
I became politicized.

Speaker 2 in the lead up to the Iraq invasion in 2003. Yes.
I was in high school and I remember in 2002, I went to like a hippie, you know, magnet school. and we had Peace Day annually.

Speaker 2 And I remember giving a speech in 2002 to make the case against the preemptive war in Iraq. And

Speaker 2 I remember, you'll, you're going to laugh at this. I remember in English class, we were reading a play, The Glass Menagerie, which I found deeply boring.

Speaker 2 And I had like a, yeah, I had a cutout of a New York Times article in which Bill Crystal was one of the people the reporter interviewed. And, you know, Bill Crystal loves war, loves war,

Speaker 2 hardcore neocon.

Speaker 2 And I just remember like just sitting in that English class reading his quotes and seething over it and thinking to myself, I can't wait to one day get an opportunity to like confront him.

Speaker 2 And I actually did get that opportunity. It wasn't about war, but it was a Politicon panel debate about healthcare.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I kind of brought up the fact that Israel has universal health care and Americans don't. What did he say?

Speaker 2 He was so unprepared. There's like a picture of him, like, like he has index cards, like, someone wrote notes down for him, and he's just like fumbling with the index cards.

Speaker 2 He doesn't know what to do. And then, once the whole panel discussion was over,

Speaker 2 um, someone who was with me overheard him say, Damn it, she came prepared, something along those lines.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's it's arrogance, it's people who've been told since they were small that they're brilliant.

Speaker 2 You know, Bill Crystal, Ted Cruz. I mean, it does distort you, and it actually makes you dumb, paradoxically, over time.
Definitely, yeah, never pressed. Got to stay humble.

Speaker 2 I completely agree with you. Yeah.
It's not hard for me.

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Okay, so you, I just wanted to emphasize that point.

Speaker 2 You would, you came to the conclusion that you were wrong and you said so out loud. Yeah.
And to me, that's the ACID test. Is someone honest? I don't know.
Will that person admit being wrong?

Speaker 2 That's when we know. Yeah, totally.
And okay, so

Speaker 2 you live in the same place. That's also hugely helpful because you can see it over time, the same place.
True. You know Ventura Boulevard.
You've lived near it your whole life. Right.

Speaker 2 So what did you start to notice? Like, what is it like? What are the effects?

Speaker 2 Well, I started noticing that homelessness really exploded in Los Angeles. Like it's always been a problem in LA.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 But it now touches every like square mile of that county.

Speaker 2 And it's just gotten during COVID, it was unbelievably bad. And I just felt like it was inhumane seeing what was going on.
And it wasn't just that there were a lot of homeless people.

Speaker 2 It was that there were were a lot of homeless people with like severe, severe like mental health issues. Yes.
And they can't make decisions for themselves.

Speaker 2 They're like literally, I can't tell you how many times on my way to work on the freeway, I almost hit a mentally ill homeless person who's on the freeway. 2405.
Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 And I can't imagine what I would go through

Speaker 2 for the rest of my life if I ever hit someone with my car, you know? But like, why are we living in a society that like thinks thinks that this is okay? This is not okay. This is not okay.

Speaker 2 The drug addiction, not just in LA, all across the country. Has there been any effort to do anything about this? Zero.

Speaker 2 And it makes me really angry. Sacklers are still billionaires.
Yep, exactly. And it's just, I find it to be,

Speaker 2 you want to talk about treason. Politicians who let this kind of stuff happen to the Americans they're supposed to represent.
And people mistake that as me being anti-homeless. No, no.

Speaker 2 The people who defend what's happening right now, they're anti-homeless. Seven people died of drug overdose on the same corner near where I live in a two-week span.
Seven people, same corner.

Speaker 2 That wasn't a big scandal. The city council member who represents my district wasn't asked about it.
She didn't have to defend herself.

Speaker 2 She's one of these city council members who keeps voting on the dumbest policies.

Speaker 2 that do nothing to actually help these people, but somehow justifies the continuation of the same failed policies that have led to all of these overdose deaths, all of these people with mental health issues not getting the help that they need.

Speaker 2 It's awful. The whole situation is awful.

Speaker 2 I mean, I lived in L.A. as a child.
I've worked there on and off my whole life. I really love Los Angeles.
I'll admit that.

Speaker 2 I just love it. It's just in a truly American city.
The architecture is

Speaker 2 unique to L.A. or was.
It's just an amazing, it's what an ambitious, hopeful, affluent country builds when they get to the end of the continent. Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, it's like, wow, there's nowhere else to go. Let's build something amazing.
And they built Los Angeles. And I just, I've always loved it in my heart.
So I go back there.

Speaker 2 I'm going back next month and I'm shocked by it. Like I can't even believe it.
The encampment outside the veterans building in Brentwood. I'm like, what is going on here?

Speaker 2 And no one ever says anything. Well, but I don't live there.
You tell me. Do people talk about this a lot?

Speaker 2 They talk about it privately, but it's really interesting because while there's this openness in regard to the failed policies in private discussions, no one wants to say anything publicly because you'll get the kind of treatment I've gotten.

Speaker 2 The people are dying on the street. Yep.
Seven people at one intersection. Yep.

Speaker 2 Seven people, Americans. And that's like verboten to talk about? How? Why? Oh, you're stigmatizing your unhoused neighbors.
I can't tell you how many times I've heard that statement.

Speaker 2 You're stigmatizing your unhoused. It's like, no.
They're dead.

Speaker 2 And I feel bad about it. Yeah, no, I'm stigmatizing the very politicians who think that this situation is okay.
The same politicians who took our tax dollars, $24 billion

Speaker 2 worth of California's taxpayer money, okay,

Speaker 2 squandered it by funneling it to these NGOs and nonprofits that are run by their friends. Oh, of course.
And they fattened up their pockets. They didn't do anything to actually help those people.

Speaker 2 Nothing.

Speaker 2 So when you say that at dinner,

Speaker 2 what's that like?

Speaker 2 I mean, again, I don't have dinner with idiots. Okay.

Speaker 2 So I'm not going to have dinner with someone who's like, no, I think we should keep stealing money from taxpayers in the highest tax state in the country. No, I'm not interested in that.

Speaker 2 But when I do have dinner with my friends or with, you know, acquaintances, acquaintances, or even like people that I just met, but, you know, for whatever reason, our paths crossed and we're having dinner.

Speaker 2 They all agree with me. You know, most people agree with me.
And I don't think what I'm saying is at all offensive, which is why I keep saying it.

Speaker 2 I'm not going to stop saying it just because some idiots are going to try to smear me for doing it. No, I don't care.
Like

Speaker 2 these issues go way beyond me. You get what I'm saying? Well, not only is it not offensive, it's pro-life in the truest sense.
It's pro-human dignity.

Speaker 2 You don't want seven people to die in an intersection. You're shocked and horrified and saddened by it.
That's not shameful. That's evidence of decency and compassion.

Speaker 2 I don't understand how that just got inverted.

Speaker 2 You know, I don't want to go back to the days where we were criminalizing people who were suffering from drug addiction. Right.

Speaker 2 But what we're doing now is,

Speaker 2 I think, far worse. Oh, of course it is.
You know, because at least if someone was using publicly, which by the way, right now happens all the time, you see people,

Speaker 2 it's really devastating. Like you see people smoking meth publicly.
You see people, oh yeah, oh yeah. You see,

Speaker 2 you know, do you know what the fentylene is? Yeah, I've seen it. Yeah, it's all over Ventura Boulevard at night.
And it's, I don't know.

Speaker 2 Can you describe it for people who don't know what you're talking about? It's basically fentanyl.

Speaker 2 I guess it does something to your body where after you take it, like if you see someone who's literally standing, but they're like hunched over, like folded over. Like a scarecrow.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 2 They're on fentanyl. That's what fentanyl does to their body.
And

Speaker 2 I never saw that once until recently. And now it's just all over Ventura Boulevard in the San Fernando Valley at night specifically.
You don't see it in the daytime.

Speaker 2 And it's the most heartbreaking thing ever. Um, these people are, they're dying.
Very likely they're going to die.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
And no one cares. No one cares.

Speaker 2 I can't tell you how many times people just kind of like,

Speaker 2 you'll see videos of this online. People will

Speaker 2 have to walk over

Speaker 2 a guy who looks like he might be dead, sleeping on the sidewalk. You know, like it's,

Speaker 2 it's made us almost numb because it's so, it's so much of our lives now. Like it's, it's a regular occurrence.
So when it's a regular occurrence, it becomes normalized. And I, it degrades everyone.

Speaker 2 Exactly. And I'm worried that since it's so normalized, nothing's going to be done about it.
And

Speaker 2 I just find it immoral. And I find that it's wrong.
And I'm disgusted with our politicians. I don't think I could have put it better.
Every word you said, I agree with passionately.

Speaker 2 And I don't know how this wound up a partisan issue at all. And it's

Speaker 2 I think it's because it's a Trump era. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Trump offends the sensitivities and sensibilities of self-identified liberal Democrats so much that they think they have to like automatically take the opposite stance of what a conservative would say or what a Trump Trump supporter would say.

Speaker 2 But that's why I want people to start talking again

Speaker 2 and not make Donald Trump like the nucleus of our politics. Because I think that, you know, again, on a lot of the important issues, there's a lot of agreement among voters.

Speaker 2 They just have to allow themselves to think for themselves. Think for themselves.
Well, I would say the most important issues.

Speaker 2 I mean, if you've got seven people dying in one intersection in Los Angeles, you're not going to tell me that Iran is a greater threat to my country than that exactly i can't think of a greater threat to my country than that actually

Speaker 2 and so and i don't have any idea why that's partisan i i'm interested in the governor i know the governor of the state

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 2 he's got some i know gavin newsom he's got some talent i think and uh charming for sure but like what is going on is he aware of i've asked him and i you really find him charming

Speaker 2 well in a kind of reptilian way i mean charming in the sense that

Speaker 2 his whole life

Speaker 2 is devoted to winning people over. Yes.
Kind of like Bill Clinton was. And I think he's good at it.

Speaker 2 But I also think someone said to me the other day, Newsom could pass a lie detector test on any, saying anything. Like there's a coldness inside that.
He's a sociopath.

Speaker 2 I think he's a snake oil salesman. I think he's a liar.
And I think that he destroyed the state of California. Full stop.

Speaker 2 I've got no love for Gavin Newsom.

Speaker 2 I think that people tend to fall for appearances, and he's, for whatever reason, people think that he's attractive or something.

Speaker 2 I don't find him attractive because I know who he is and what he's done.

Speaker 2 He has shafted Californians who have lost everything in wildfires.

Speaker 2 The fire in Paradise, California was absolutely devastating. An entire community burnt down as the result of PGE, Pacific Gas and Electric, that's the utility company, refusing to upgrade their

Speaker 2 aging equipment. Their equipment is over 100 years old.
And so what started that fire was this metal hook that had eroded to the point where it broke. Power lines come crashing down onto dry brush.

Speaker 2 It sparks a fire. and destroys an entire community.
Okay.

Speaker 2 So you would want PG ⁇ E to suffer some consequences for that, right? Think. Well, Newsom bailed him out because it's one of his biggest donors.

Speaker 2 He recently, in an interview, I can't remember. He's been doing these like podcast interviews to kind of rebrand himself as like some sort of common sense guy.
I've turned it down. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Don't fall for it because it's total BS.

Speaker 2 But, you know, he said something along the lines of, oh, you know, I take personal accountability. I made a big mistake by getting caught.
You know, I was at the French launch laundry.

Speaker 2 It's like some ritzy fancy restaurant

Speaker 2 during COVID after I told Californians, you know, don't get together with family members during the holidays. It's very dangerous, whatever.

Speaker 2 He said that he was having dinner with friends. It was his friend's birthday.
No, no, no. He was having dinner with his donors.

Speaker 2 So even in the context where he's pretending to take accountability, he's lying straight to everyone's face. And I can't.
stand it. I really can't.
I want authentic. I want real authenticity.

Speaker 2 I want real accountability.

Speaker 2 I want politicians who are willing to see that the policies they advocated for aren't working quite as they intended and they're willing to recalibrate, admit that maybe they got something wrong.

Speaker 2 Of course. I want humility.
I want this country to improve for the people in this country.

Speaker 2 And unless we are willing to be honest, unless we're willing to tell the people trying to smear us to silence us that they can F off, nothing's going to improve. Everything's going to keep going down.

Speaker 2 Everything is going to continue devolving. In my lifetime, this country has only gotten worse, not better.
And it's going to keep going in that direction. And I want that paradigm to shift.

Speaker 2 I want it to change.

Speaker 2 Why do people disagree with that, do you think?

Speaker 2 I don't know. I really,

Speaker 2 I think there's something psychological about it.

Speaker 2 I think that we've been conditioned to think of politics as black and white, good and bad. But I think it's more complicated than that.

Speaker 2 I think most Americans are good people

Speaker 2 who want

Speaker 2 good things for everyone. But I think the media kind of conditions us to hate the other side, whatever the other side really is.
You know,

Speaker 2 I certainly had those feelings. And things are different today compared to when I became politicized during the Bush era.
Yes. I feel like during the Bush era,

Speaker 2 It was a little easier to see good and bad, right?

Speaker 2 So for instance, even among Republican voters, I think people had woken up to the fact that the neoconservatives had dragged us into wars that we shouldn't have been fighting, that a lot of people, Americans and civilians in these countries we were invading, were suffering as a result of this ideology.

Speaker 2 But things have gotten a little more fractured. I think within the parties,

Speaker 2 there's like multiple parties. You get what I'm saying? I do.

Speaker 2 But when it comes to the two establishments, the Democratic establishment, the Republican establishment, there's a lot of similarities between the two they're in alignment exactly on the on the big issues that matter war and the economy war and the economy biggest issues 100 they love they love to like distract us with shiny things yeah have a race war totally 100 yeah all these like social issues by the way social issues are important i'm not minimizing them but the way that they're framed by the establishment i think is interesting because it's intentionally meant to get us to fight each other constantly.

Speaker 2 Of course.

Speaker 2 Instead of considering what the big issues are and how we might actually agree on those big issues, what we can do to work together to, again, apply pressure to politicians to demand that they represent us instead of their donors, instead of money to interest, instead of a foreign government.

Speaker 2 So I think people are waking up for the first time. I'm a little bit excited because,

Speaker 2 you know, the kind of speech that you gave wouldn't have happened five years ago. No, 10 years ago.
No, I think that's, that's right.

Speaker 2 And I wouldn't have, though, I, I'm just struck by how normal and non-threatening and non-hateful and

Speaker 2 just

Speaker 2 basic most people's views are, including mine. I don't have any complicated views about anything.
I'm not a very deep person at all.

Speaker 2 And I don't know why we've all internalized this shame.

Speaker 2 that like some things must not be said. And it's like, why? I don't, I don't hate anybody.
And in fact, I'm on guard against that. I'm, I refuse to because of my religious beliefs.

Speaker 2 It's like I'm not hating anybody, period. But I'm also not going to be shamed into like ignoring obvious stuff.
None of us is paying very close attention during the summer. The news cycle calms down.

Speaker 2 Families travel. People are relaxed.
You're at the beach. It's all great, except the people in Washington never stop.

Speaker 2 It gives them a chance to advance their agenda without you noticing because you're on vacation.

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Speaker 2 Shopbeam.com slash Tucker to 40% off. Can I ask you something now real quick? So

Speaker 2 I heard that speech. And by the time I finished listening to it, I thought to myself,

Speaker 2 he's going to run for president. That was a presidential speech.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 No, that's literally the last thing on my mind. Like I would never do that.

Speaker 2 No, I mean, unless I was like told by a higher power or something, but no, I don't think I'm suited for that. I, of course, I don't want that.
I have a lot of happiness and balance in my life.

Speaker 2 I have a huge family. I'm the oldest male in that family.
So I feel like there I have a lot of things I'm paying attention to.

Speaker 2 I have dogs who I really love. So no, like nothing about that is appealing at all.
And I would never, I've never had any political ambition of any kind. And I have even less now.

Speaker 2 I mean, I, I've known a lot of people who've had that job and it's just, it's really hard. Oh, I would never want to.
I would never want it. Are you kidding me? No.

Speaker 2 And also the idea that like out of 350 million people, I'm the most qualified to lead. Well, there's plenty of people who think that.
I don't think that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 No, and I mean think that about themselves often. I do not think that.
Yeah. Like Ted Cruz thinks that.
Yeah. Well, exactly.
Yeah. And it's just sad.

Speaker 2 And they're compensating for something, some of them, I guess. I'm not going to be mean, but I don't, I'm not compensating for anything.
So I have no no interest. But, but here's my question.

Speaker 2 So you said the media are a huge part of this, which is undoubtedly true.

Speaker 2 I've been in the media for 35 years. I know everyone in the media pretty much there are some, mostly they're not evil.
They're just kind of dumb. Okay.

Speaker 2 There are some evil people. I could name them, like Joe Scarbo or something, you know, who's like, obviously really bad, but most people are not.
But they go along with this. And the question is why?

Speaker 2 And one of the reasons is because they don't want to alienate their audiences.

Speaker 2 You've been, you are on one of the biggest, maybe the biggest, certainly one of the biggest liberal podcasts, progressive podcasts. The Young Turks, you've been there for almost 20 years.

Speaker 2 I was amazed to find that out last night at Dinner. Yeah.
18 years. 18 years.
I don't know how old you are, but I was shocked by that. But, and it's one of the biggest, and you are one of the biggest.

Speaker 2 And maybe our audience doesn't know this because they don't watch liberal podcasts, but you're one of the biggest. So you start saying stuff like this.
You're going to like, yeah, lose audience.

Speaker 2 You're going to lose money, like actual money. Yep.
Has that happened? Do you worry about that happening?

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's happened.

Speaker 2 Let me just say that for whatever anyone might think about Jank Uger, who's the founder and CEO of the Young Turks, you know, he's, he's a very,

Speaker 2 like he's, he's sometimes brash, combative, loud, and that turns people off. And I get that.
They might not agree with his politics, but I just want to.

Speaker 2 talk about who he is as a person because if it weren't for jank i wouldn't have the confidence to publicly admit I'm wrong or the confidence to be genuine and honest about what I really think.

Speaker 2 Because he provides a platform for you to actually say what you think and not get punished for it if it hurts the business. And it did hurt the business.
Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So we lost a portion of our audience for sure.

Speaker 2 Based on what you said? Based on what I said. And more importantly,

Speaker 2 that alienated people. I mean, okay, I would say that the straw that broke the camel's back was

Speaker 2 I agreed to go talk to Glenn Beck. He invited me to go on his podcast.
You know, I obviously have disagreements with Glenn Beck, but I was actually shocked at how much we agreed on.

Speaker 2 You know, we talked about war. We talked about all sorts of things.
And there were areas of agreement. It was a pleasant conversation, but I didn't capitulate my values at all.

Speaker 2 Just because I'm talking to him doesn't mean I've done anything wrong. My views are my views.
His views are his views. We had a conversation.
Well, I come home thinking nothing of it.

Speaker 2 And one of our employees, someone who's a contributor to TYT or was a contributor to TYT, decided to take that as an opportunity to make a big spectacle about the fact that he's quitting because

Speaker 2 I decided to speak to Glenn Beck. who's like a threat to black bodies or something.
I don't know, but he just, it was. Is Glenn Beck a threat to black bodies? I have no idea.
Is he?

Speaker 2 I mean, I didn't get that. I don't think Glenn Beck's much of a threat to anyone, to be honest with you.
He might have some ideas people don't like, but okay.

Speaker 2 But it was nothing that you specifically said. It wasn't like...
No, nothing. Nothing that I said.

Speaker 2 I mean, no one was citing anything I said during that interview that upset them, that was so offensive that it was worthy of like publicly condemning me and making a big spectacle about how I can't work here because of Anna and she spoke to this dangerous, dangerous man.

Speaker 2 Did Beck say anything like so over the top that you were supposed to respond to it or something? No, I, no. I mean, Glenn Beck

Speaker 2 is a pretty moderate guy.

Speaker 2 I mean, I don't, I mean, he might have some views that aren't moderate, but we didn't talk about any of those things. Like the conversation was

Speaker 2 really not offensive at all, in my opinion. And but they didn't cite anything.
He didn't like endorse Hitler or anything. It was just the fact that I spoke to him.
But, you know,

Speaker 2 unfortunately, you know, when you have someone

Speaker 2 make a public spectacle about quitting and making it seem as though I had

Speaker 2 done something so wrong,

Speaker 2 It signaled to a portion of our audience: like, oh, maybe Anna isn't who she says she is. Maybe Anna is like a secret, like, far-right-winger or Nazi or something.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 How long had you been at the show at this point? Um,

Speaker 2 17 and a half years. It wasn't.
So that's deep cover. So you've been a secret Nazi for 17 and a half years.
Yeah, I'm really good at it. You're playing the long game, baby.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 I'm sorry to learn. Let me just say, let me just say this.
I started working, as you mentioned, I've been there for 18 years, started working there in 2007. Okay.

Speaker 2 When TYT was basically a startup that no one knew about

Speaker 2 the revenue for TYT at the time came from Air America. Air America had gone bankrupt a few months after I started working for them.

Speaker 2 And Jank Uger is amazing because he's like, I'm going to make it work. I'm going to find a way to keep this company afloat.
And he did to his credit. But

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 can't even explain to you how much of a grind it was building TYT. It was a grind, long hours, like blood, sweat, and tears.
But we believed in it and we loved it.

Speaker 2 And I actually have like great memories of those years. We barely made any money at all, but we believed in what we were doing.
And there was something really exciting about that.

Speaker 2 I went through all that. I helped build what TYT is today.

Speaker 2 And the audacity, the audacity of anyone coming in as a contributor contributor or anything else to tell me who I can and can't talk to is that's offensive. That's offensive.
Okay, I earned this.

Speaker 2 You're not going to come into my house and tell me what my beliefs should be, who I should talk to. F off.
Good, good. Good riddance.
Go, go.

Speaker 2 I'm not going to be censored by anyone, not my audience, no one on the right. I don't care.
I don't care.

Speaker 2 So sometimes when people sell products on TV, i love this product i use this product there's the question in the mind of the viewer does this guy really use the product does he really love the product would he keep the product at home ask my dogs yes now we are in a garage uh i'm not gonna tell you where it is because again this is prepping

Speaker 2 but this is my garage there's a gun safe and this is a part of my stockpile of ready hour completely real the second i put it here the second ready hour sent it to me i felt peace of mind Because no matter what happens, we're not going hungry in my house.

Speaker 2 I moved a lot of fishing gear out of the way to keep it in my garage. And ever since it's been here, I have felt the peace of mind that comes from knowing my family is not going hungry no matter what.

Speaker 2 Lastcountry Supply.com, LastCountry Supply.com, it can be in your garage along with the peace of mind that comes with having it.

Speaker 2 I have a nephew who loves you and he's always, oh, Ducker, you got to interview this chick. She's amazing.
And I'm so glad. Sorry, excuse me.

Speaker 2 it just makes me laugh. I mean, I just, I love what you're saying, of course.

Speaker 2 But you also are making a point about the guy you work with, you started the company, known as company, who even after some of your audience bolted over this,

Speaker 2 um, he didn't call you in and say, knock it off.

Speaker 2 No, never, never. That's not who Jenk is.

Speaker 2 And by the way, I mean, he's had hosts on our network who he vehemently disagrees with.

Speaker 2 And he's had other hosts come in and like demand that those hosts get fired because of what they're saying. Oh, it's offensive.
And Jenk's like, no, we don't do that here.

Speaker 2 And I think

Speaker 2 what informs Jenks' behavior, honestly, is the fact that at one time he was a self-identified Republican. This is when he was in college and stuff.
Yes.

Speaker 2 And he and I have like a lot of these heart-to-hearts because I have these days when I am down about.

Speaker 2 everything that's transpired because I do feel like it's unfair to paint me in a certain light just because you don't like the people I'm talking to.

Speaker 2 But whenever I need like a little bit of a pep talk,

Speaker 2 he'll mention what it was like as a college Republican. And he's like, Anna, it was unbearable because they wouldn't let me talk in class.

Speaker 2 Like they would do everything possible to prevent me from being able to speak. Who's they? Like other students or professors who didn't like his point of view.
Okay, liberals. Liberals, yeah.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 and that really, really frustrated him. And so now as the CEO of the Young Turks, he's not going to turn around and censor other hosts because he disagrees with them.
A lot of people do, though.

Speaker 2 A lot of people do. But to his credit, he doesn't.
And that's why I've been there for 18 years. There have been other opportunities to make a, I love when people call me a grifter.

Speaker 2 I could have been a millionaire by now. I'm not a millionaire because I want to speak my mind.
And TYT has been the only place that's allowed me to do it.

Speaker 2 Good for you. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I don't think, I mean, most people don't host shows, so they don't know the feeling. I have hosted shows, so I do know the feeling.

Speaker 2 If your audience starts to move out from under you, boy, that is, because that's, that's your strength, that's your core, that's your revenue, of course.

Speaker 2 But more than that, that's your, that's your moral backing. Like you, you know, they may not like what I'm saying, but my people do.
My audience does.

Speaker 2 And so if they bolt in meaningful numbers, boy, there's nothing scarier. I mean, I get it.
Yeah, it is scary. I'm not going to lie about that.
I mean, being scared didn't deter me, but

Speaker 2 I was more concerned about what it was going to do to the company overall, because

Speaker 2 if things

Speaker 2 were bad enough and we didn't have enough revenue to keep every employee, people are going to get fired or laid off. And I wouldn't, I would really struggle with the guilt.

Speaker 2 I would feel responsible for that. And so I'm glad that that didn't happen.
And we're currently, we're rebuilding.

Speaker 2 And it's a dream come true for me because I want to build an audience of open-minded people who aren't going to like run for the hills the second they hear a point that they disagree with or that they haven't heard before.

Speaker 2 Or that they haven't heard before. Exactly.
Yeah. Cause there's, I think there's a lot of that where if,

Speaker 2 you know, if you get past the initial shock, like you'll say something, be like, well, first of all, you're not allowed to say that. Second, I've never heard anybody say that.

Speaker 2 And I kind of hate you for saying something new.

Speaker 2 But, but I do think that wears off after a moment. And people are like, well, actually, is that crazy? Is that hateful? I don't, I don't think it is.
And you can kind of convince them after that.

Speaker 2 You have a decision to make. You can either build a niche audience.
And I think that's the worst option because a niche audience wants to be catered to.

Speaker 2 And you have to be very careful to follow a very specific script. I'm not interested in that.
And I think that I personally went through an era of

Speaker 2 being a little bit radicalized on the left. And I regret that because I unwittingly unwittingly did build a bit of a niche audience.
But those folks. What do you mean, radicalized?

Speaker 2 I totally bought the narrative that like everyone on the right's racist. Everyone on the right is greedy.
That kind of stuff. So Trump term one when everyone just got hysterical about Trump.
Yes.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I get it. That was the era that I'm not proud of.

Speaker 2 And I was basically building my own prison and I didn't realize it. And what I mean by that is once you have a niche audience, you're not allowed to deviate from a very specific and narrow ideology.

Speaker 2 And I don't want that. I'm not an ideologue.
I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong. I'm willing to recalibrate on policy if I see it implemented and it's not working correctly.

Speaker 2 I ultimately just want truth. I want justice.
And I want a country that represents its people. That's what I want.
That's my core. Do you feel like

Speaker 2 it is bridgeable? Like there's so much anger.

Speaker 2 Like, and by the way, I do think the immigration thing and the crime thing sort of obscure it. Like the real fight is between educated whites.
Like they're the ones who really hate each other. Really?

Speaker 2 I think that. Tell me more about that.
Well, I think it's,

Speaker 2 I mean, I just know from my own experience, I often say this, but you know, they called me a racist for many, many years.

Speaker 2 And I would always say, if I was racist, I would just admit it because like there are worse things, but I'm not. And I would get so hassled always by the same demographic.

Speaker 2 And I would always say to my wife, you know, every, no black person's ever yelled at me. In fact, I've been hugged by a lot of black people.
That's just a fact. I'm sorry.
It's just true. And

Speaker 2 they don't seem to think I'm a racist, but it's, it's always middle-aged white women who are yelling at me at Logan Airport.

Speaker 2 And like, what is that? No, I'm not whining. I mean, I don't really care, but it's just, it's just interesting.
And so I think it's, it's almost like fratricidal.

Speaker 2 It's like professional class whites who read the New Yorker, read the New York Times, like they're truly angry

Speaker 2 at each other. Yeah.
Yeah. I don't know.
I've just noticed this. Yeah.
I mean, it's, I think it's just, it's propaganda and, and this thought that

Speaker 2 certain things are way worse than they really are or that like their perceived threats, I think, aren't real to the extent that they think it's real.

Speaker 2 And by speaking out and by confronting you, and by you know, doing what you're referring to, I think they get a sense of I'm doing something about it, you know, right? No, I get it.

Speaker 2 I'm not even attacking them. It's just interesting to me.
The, I mean, because it's clear, it's totally real in their minds. This is it is, of course, not just performative.

Speaker 2 It's like I felt rage before.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 and as as you so eloquently described, like that rage obscures, and I think maybe it's designed to obscure the reality of like physical degradation all around us. All around us.
Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So, and I think that is kind of the point. I think it is to some extent intentional.
But, but, but what, since you do live in that world and have for so long,

Speaker 2 as rationally as you can, clinically as you can, can you explain what they're worried about?

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, I think,

Speaker 2 I think that their heart is in the right place. Yeah, yeah.
I'm not, I'm giving them the presumption of good faith for sure.

Speaker 2 I just want to know, like, when some rich lady yells at me in the ski lift line, she thinks I'm racist. I know they always say that, but then there's also like there's a fascist takeover imminent.

Speaker 2 Is that part of it? Or what is yeah, well, I mean, okay, let's talk about the fascist takeover because there is a part of me that's a little bit worried about that. I am too.

Speaker 2 Okay, so not just part of me, a lot of me. And look, I don't know what's in those women's heads.
So I, I just don't, I don't understand them.

Speaker 2 So I feel we are talking about what they, they're thinking and every person should be worried about the centralization of power and the use of technology to strip basic rights from citizens. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like everybody. Like the Palantir stuff concerns me a little bit.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Anytime, yeah, I mean, the technology, not just palantir, but all the emerging technology, supercomputing, AI, all of this stuff, facial recognition, like it could be used to enslave the population totally really easily.

Speaker 2 Totally. Yeah.
So I don't know why, I mean, everyone should be freaked out about that. You're worried about that, definitely.

Speaker 2 I'm also a little bit worried about, and I don't know how large this group of people in America happens to be, but you're hearing from them more and more.

Speaker 2 This idea that,

Speaker 2 no,

Speaker 2 we need to move toward a

Speaker 2 post

Speaker 2 liberal and like

Speaker 2 post-liberal democracy. You know what I'm saying? Like a rejection of the democratic process overall.
Like Curtis Yarvin is one of the figures who's been kind of preaching about this.

Speaker 2 He sounds really dumb. So I don't know how seriously people really take him, but he's, he purports to want a monarchy in this country, which sounds insane.

Speaker 2 Look, I'm opposed to monarchy. And

Speaker 2 The truth, however, is that the trends you're describing have totally discredited liberal democracy. That's my fear.
And I think maybe it's intentional. Oh, for sure.
It's intentional.

Speaker 2 It's so chaotic that we beg for a dictator. I kind of feel like that's happening.

Speaker 2 I hope people aren't begging for a dictator because you don't like the fact that the government isn't really representing your interests right now.

Speaker 2 Get a load of what it's going to be like to live under a dictator where you have no say at all. Right.
No, no, I'm talking more about like quality of life questions.

Speaker 2 Like if there are home invasions going on and the homeowner doesn't have any expectation the cops are going to save him,

Speaker 2 that kind of stuff, that's not theoretical. That's like, that induces panic true yeah it makes me uncomfortable even thinking about it

Speaker 2 you know uh so if you have a lot more of that people will be like i don't really give a about voting what i care about is my kids not being killed yeah and actually you make a really good point which is why it's so important for americans who value liberal democracy to really start thinking seriously right about saving it exactly yeah yeah that's what i want but don't you feel like when people are under like if if you were on a plane flying across the Pacific that dropped 20,000 feet in a minute

Speaker 2 and you're saying your prayers, maybe you're an atheist, you're saying prayers anyway, couldn't control yourself. And would you, what would you be willing to do or give up in exchange for not dying?

Speaker 2 In other words, if you're totally panicked, you're in free fall in a commercial airliner,

Speaker 2 God, I will do anything. Like that's kind of

Speaker 2 what is happening with crime, I think. Yeah.
Yeah. And not just crime.
Not just crime. Yeah.
I mean, so many issues. It's, it is a problem

Speaker 2 when

Speaker 2 most Americans agree on something and our politicians know it, but they do the opposite anyway. And I've been increasingly angry with the fact that,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 I feel that the interests of Americans and how they feel about going to war with Iran, for instance, right? Most Americans do not want to go to war with Iran. And it didn't matter.
Okay.

Speaker 2 The United States bombed Iran's nuclear sites on behalf of Israel anyway, which could have led to a full-blown hot war. It didn't because of Iran having restraint, but we're not done yet.

Speaker 2 And don't you feel ashamed that it didn't lead to nuclear war?

Speaker 2 This is the new line. I know.
You are wrong. You're an idiot.
That's, by the way, that line is stupid. How dare you worry about that? Yeah, we're not, by the way, it's not over yet.

Speaker 2 And don't get too cocky. For the people making that point, don't get too cocky.
But why is it shameful to worry about a nuclear war or worry about a World War III? Why is that?

Speaker 2 It's being held up by the normal tiny brain people as like, you know, evidence that you're just a ridiculous person. Your prediction was wrong.
Right, right. Well, I mean.

Speaker 2 We didn't have a nuclear war. Shut up.
Well, maybe those folks have a point. Maybe, maybe we're the...
We're the baddies, okay?

Speaker 2 Maybe we should be more concerned about profits for, you know, bomb makers and weapons manufacturers and private contractors and the mercenaries that are currently working over in Gaza to shoot and kill people as they're waiting for humanitarian aid.

Speaker 2 So how does that, it does feel like I've spent 35 years not talking about that topic because one, I don't really have on a native level, like super strong views about it. It's not my country.

Speaker 2 I wish everyone well in every country. And I mean that.

Speaker 2 However, it just got so in my face that I had to like say four things about it, for which I've been, you know, spent the rest of my life trying to deal with the effects of being called those names.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 I feel like all of a sudden, like people, you would not expect to weigh in on this, like, actually, this is too much. Yeah.
And I love it. I'm glad that that's happening.
And I hope.

Speaker 2 Do you feel that there's been a change? I do feel it. I mean, definitely.
I,

Speaker 2 if

Speaker 2 it were the Bush years and this whole scenario were playing out during those years.

Speaker 2 The kinds of things I've been hearing people say publicly, I would not have heard. But I think what's happening this time around is

Speaker 2 you really can't deny what you're seeing on the ground in Gaza.

Speaker 2 You can't deny what's happening in the West Bank, you know, not just in regard to Palestinians, Palestinian Muslims, but also Palestinian Christians.

Speaker 2 You can't deny the fact that that one and only Catholic church in Gaza was bombed, you know, was attacked.

Speaker 2 You can't deny the fact that churches have been targeted in the West Bank as well. Like it's

Speaker 2 people can lie to us as much as they want, but the videos are out there. The images.

Speaker 2 If you've got munitions, laser-guided munitions that are so sophisticated that they can take out, you know, a guy in an SUV from 30,000 feet, how do you blow up a church with a giant cross on top of it?

Speaker 2 It was just an accident, Tucker. It was an accident.

Speaker 2 It's not the first church. No, it's not.
And it wasn't an accident.

Speaker 2 It wasn't an accident. But what is the answer? Can anyone get an answer? I know the answer.
Israel wants a Jewish state and they want to expand.

Speaker 2 They have something known as the Greater Israel Project. They intend to annex the whole of the West Bank.
In fact, Miriam Adelson legally bribed Donald Trump to ensure that that happens.

Speaker 2 And Israel announced that that's what they're going to do and they're doing it.

Speaker 2 When it comes to Gaza, I mean, Hamas is so dumb because the atrocities they committed on October 7th gave Netanyahu and the Israeli government the perfect excuse.

Speaker 2 to essentially do what they've always wanted to do, which is take that land. They're going to take that land.
That's what they want.

Speaker 2 They're going to ethnically cleanse whatever whatever remains of the Palestinian people.

Speaker 2 They're going to force neighboring countries probably to absorb 2 million people. And then at the same time, they're going to have settlers move on in, rebuild Gaza.

Speaker 2 Jared Kushner, by the way,

Speaker 2 soon after October 7th happened, was like salivating on camera about how that's prime real estate. It's disgusting.
But anyway, how can you move 2 million people right now?

Speaker 2 Well, there was a story published this week, I believe it was in the new york times uh where

Speaker 2 netanyahu and the israeli government was in talks with our government in regard to getting aid from the united states in moving palestinians out of gaza

Speaker 2 so when they bomb the church it's because they don't want the church that land is supposed to be part of the jewish you're not allowed to use my tax dollars to bomb churches well that's what they're doing i i'll put up with a lot of stuff but i think that's And I don't, I've said this a hundred times.

Speaker 2 Let me say it again. I don't understand how any Christian leader in the United States can sit by and not say something about that.
And Mike Huckabee, who has been a pretty slavish,

Speaker 2 you know, devotee of the state of Israel. And I don't mean that as a compliment.
He's a very nice man, but I disagree with him strongly.

Speaker 2 Even Mike Huckabee came out and said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah.
You can't kill Christians. And American citizens.
And American citizens. But I don't understand why that's not.

Speaker 2 I mean, if that's not a red line, then there's no red line. I mean, I think it's, it should definitely be a red line.
But let me just say, Mike Huckabee made a statement, and that's nice.

Speaker 2 It's more than Biden was willing to do.

Speaker 2 Talk is cheap. Are you going to cut funding? Are you going to stop sending over the 2,000-pound bombs that are destroying people's homes, universities, churches, refugee camps, hospitals?

Speaker 2 I mean, Gaza's leveled. Deir al-Bala is like the last remaining portion of Gaza that still has some structures that people can live in.
And they're currently doing a ground invasion there.

Speaker 2 They got to destroy it, of course. I mean, it's so obvious what's happening and it's so unjust.
And this is the area where

Speaker 2 what democracy? I have no power.

Speaker 2 The government's going to take part of my earnings that I worked really hard for, not to help my fellow American citizens who might need health care, who might have fallen on hard times and can't feed their families and need help with food assistance.

Speaker 2 It's not going to go to them. It's going to go toward the bombs that are terrorizing people in Gaza, the West Bank.
By the way, it's going to expand further than that.

Speaker 2 I mean, they've already annexed part of Syria.

Speaker 2 The Syria war,

Speaker 2 that proxy war,

Speaker 2 it was a proxy war for a reason.

Speaker 2 Turkey wanted to have influence and control over the area where the Kurds are at.

Speaker 2 Obviously, Israel wanted to annex portions of it, and they've been doing it ever since Assad fell.

Speaker 2 And you have a former al-Qaeda leader as the current leader of Syria who's trying to capitulate to Israel, but obviously it's not good enough because Israel is still bombing the crap out of Syria.

Speaker 2 It's unbelievable. I have no ability to change it.

Speaker 2 It seems like the electorate in this country have no ability to change it because it doesn't matter which party you vote for, whether it's a Democratic presidential candidate or Republican presidential candidate, they're going to get elected and they're going to get dogwalked by whoever the prime minister of Israel is at the time.

Speaker 2 How How do we wind up supporting an al-Qaeda leader? I thought we were anti-Al-Qaeda. I thought so too.

Speaker 2 I don't know. It makes no sense to me.
But I mean,

Speaker 2 this is seen throughout American history in regard to our foreign policy. I mean, we will fund the Taliban.
We'll give them weapons to fight the communists. We want to avoid communism.

Speaker 2 And then we turn on them,

Speaker 2 you know, for obvious reasons after what happened on 9-11.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 I mean, I think it's not. We were told 9-11 was done by Al-Qaeda.
So we've got to be pretty, I mean, that wasn't that long ago.

Speaker 2 We've got to be pretty anti-Al Qaeda because like if they actually killed 3,000 Americans on 9-11,

Speaker 2 which everyone says they did, and I'm willing to believe that, then how in the world can we let any al-Qaeda even exist? Wouldn't you venture to say

Speaker 2 it's required to ask these questions if you want to be a journalist?

Speaker 2 I would say, and I would also say, you know, the Syria situation, I was always opposed to what we were doing in Syria. I understood exactly why we were doing it.

Speaker 2 We ended up killing or abetting in the murder of an awful lot of religious minorities, Alawites, a lot of Christians, and destroying the country. And,

Speaker 2 you know, I was attacked for, you know, you're an Assad apologist or whatever, but I don't know anything about Assad. So are they al-Qaeda apologists? Well, that's the thing.

Speaker 2 And we've gotten to a place now where it's really clear that the 3,000 American lives they say were lost on September 11th due to al-Qaeda are less important than whatever political or geopolitical consideration is driving our Syria policy.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and it makes me sick. So that's like about, that's treason, of course.

Speaker 2 But it's more than that. That's like a profound moral crime.
And it's also a middle finger in the face of every American. Definitely.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 There's one thing we could expect our foreign policy would stay consistent on is we're anti-al-Qaeda because they killed 3,000 Americans. Yeah, but I just, I don't, I don't,

Speaker 2 well, I do understand our foreign policy and what drives our foreign policy. And

Speaker 2 it's, it's a black pill for sure.

Speaker 2 So I'm not just asking this because you have an Armenian last name, which you do. I do.
But,

Speaker 2 and I think you're Armenian. That's why you have an Armenian last name.
But because you did a segment on this,

Speaker 2 what is going on between Armenia, big, big picture, and Azerbaijan?

Speaker 2 Well, there was about four years ago, there was a pretty brutal war. Azerbaijan attacked the Armenians who were living in this area known as Nagorno-Karabakh.
Armenians call it Artsach.

Speaker 2 And historically, Armenians have had roots there. There are ancient churches, Armenian churches there.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 that land...

Speaker 2 If you look at a map of where Nagorno-Karabakh is, it's like in the middle of Azerbaijan. Not exactly in the middle, but it's basically like, let's say, here's Azerbaijan, like circle.

Speaker 2 And it's like kind of off to one side, Nagorno-Karabakh is. And the reason

Speaker 2 that land was,

Speaker 2 well, the whole of Azerbaijan was controlled by the Soviets, right?

Speaker 2 But during that time, Stalin essentially gave

Speaker 2 the land that makes up Nagorno-Karabakh

Speaker 2 to Azerbaijan, like promised that land to them, even though that area was populated by ethnic Armenians. And he did that.

Speaker 2 I mean, Stalin was evil in a lot of ways, but he was also very smart, which is the most dangerous combination. Very smart.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And so he wanted both the Azeris and the Armenians to be dependent on the Soviet Union. And the way to do that is to put the ethnic Armenians smack dab in the middle of, you know, Azerbaijan.

Speaker 2 And so it became an issue because, you know, throughout throughout history, Armenians went to war with the Azeris in regard to controlling that land because most of the people there were Armenian.

Speaker 2 They wanted to control that land. And so what happened four years ago in 2020 is Azerbaijan is like, we want the Armenians out.
We want to take over the land. And they went to war.

Speaker 2 Armenia is a tiny country. Russia...
has provided security guarantees to Armenia in the past, but unfortunately in this case, Russia didn't come to the defense of ethnic Armenians. They said that the

Speaker 2 security guarantees had to do with Armenia and not Nagorno-Karabakh. So a lot of Armenians died.
A lot of churches, ancient churches were absolutely destroyed and bombed.

Speaker 2 And the Azeris engaged in the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh. They were forced out if they weren't killed.
And some of them ended up in Armenia.

Speaker 2 And Armenia, of course, is going to take them in. But it's been really difficult because Armenia is a tiny country.
It's a

Speaker 2 developing country. It's landlocked and it's surrounded by enemies and historically has been victimized by Turkey through the Armenian genocide.
I mean, it's been pretty devastating. And it's,

Speaker 2 you know, I've been very vocal about what's been happening in Gaza. And Armenians have been very proud of me for that.
But a few have been like, why didn't you speak up about Nagorno-Karabakh? I did.

Speaker 2 I did actually at the time, but it happened four years ago. But why aren't the preachers talking about it? I don't, so churches were blown up.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And by the way, I mean, preacher, like religious leaders have been, but American media doesn't care about it. I mean, America doesn't care about Armenia at all.
Oh, I get it.

Speaker 2 It's a small country, but I just.

Speaker 2 You know, the Armenians were persecuted precisely because they were Christians. That's my read.
I mean, there's no, you know. Yeah, they were the minority, the religious minority.

Speaker 2 Of course, the religious minority at the very end of the Ottoman Empire, end of the First World War, and they were murdered in enormous numbers by

Speaker 2 the Ottomans, using the Kurds, I think, for a lot of it. And

Speaker 2 the Kurds, we love the Kurds.

Speaker 2 But I don't understand why I just see this theme.

Speaker 2 You may disagree with this, but I see a global theme where the most peaceful religion in the world is taking the most abuse and there's the most murder of Christians. I don't quite know what that is.

Speaker 2 And I just am amazed that nobody says anything in the United States. Yeah, I, it's, it's, I mean, Armenians don't have a powerful lobby that can bribe our politicians to care about them.
So

Speaker 2 what's really depressing, though, is, you know, we provide a lot of the weapons that Israel has.

Speaker 2 And Israel sold weapons to Azerbaijan to carry out the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Armenians from Nagorno-Karabakh. What? Yep.
Yep. Is that confirmed? Yes, it's confirmed.
It's absolutely confirmed.

Speaker 2 Israel sold weapons to Azerbaijan to kill the Christians. Yeah.

Speaker 2 That's exactly what happened.

Speaker 2 You're sure? Yeah. Anyone can look it up.

Speaker 2 And look, if I'm ever wrong, I will admit it, but this is something I've researched deeply. Where did Azerbaijan get us weapons from?

Speaker 2 There have been rumors that they also were sold weapons from Russia, but there was less confirmation on that. But in regard to Israel, it's very clear and it's documented.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I sense a theme.

Speaker 2 And I have a right to sense that theme because I'm a Christian and I'm not going to cede that right. Sorry.

Speaker 2 So the Armenians were murdered by the millions at the end of the First World War, where, but they weren't all killed. Where did they go?

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 oh, thank you for asking me these questions. I really appreciate it because there's a lot that I want to say about it.
So the Armenian genocide

Speaker 2 was perpetrated by an offshoot of

Speaker 2 an organization of like,

Speaker 2 it's a group that basically rebelled against the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire like had already been persecuting Armenians.
There was the Adana massacres.

Speaker 2 I mean, massacres had been happening at the hands of the Ottoman Turks. Now, a group rose up to rebel against the Ottoman Empire, and those individuals were known as the Young Turks.

Speaker 2 We are not named after those people. Young Turks in American context means something entirely different.

Speaker 2 It means someone who rebels against societal expectations or the establishment and that's what we do at our show so that's why jank named it that i kind of wish he didn't because it gets confused all the time but nonetheless it's kind of funny that there's a turk and an armenian uh

Speaker 2 and by the way um we talk about the armenian genocide on the show all the time i

Speaker 2 you know he's turkish and he grew up in a certain context where you you only get one side of the story of course yeah we all we all have grown up in this exactly but to his credit i mean through our very difficult conversations at times, through our debates, he eventually realized, oh my God, like I was totally brainwashed.

Speaker 2 The Armenian genocide is totally real. And we talk about it all the time on the show.
And I'm, that's like probably one of my proudest accomplishments because I could have

Speaker 2 turned my back on him, made him out to just be a terrible person who's unworthy of me even like talking to him. But instead, I made a decision.
to try to convince him, to persuade him.

Speaker 2 And it took a while, but it worked. And to me,

Speaker 2 seeing the humanity in someone who has like a fundamental disagreement that enrages me,

Speaker 2 I think that probably out of all, all the qualities that make me human, I think that's my best quality. My willingness to try to persuade before I write someone off is unworthy.

Speaker 2 That's a very good quality. Yeah.
But anyway, sorry. So the Young Turks rose up to,

Speaker 2 and the whole thing about the Young Turks was they didn't like the way Armenians were being persecuted. They wanted to provide rights to Armenians.
And you can look this up.

Speaker 2 It's in the history, right? But there was an offshoot of the young Turks called the Committee of Unity and Progress. And they're the ones who perpetrated the Armenian genocide.
Okay.

Speaker 2 So that's how it happened. 1.5 million Armenians were slaughtered.

Speaker 2 There were a lot more Armenians who were forced to march through the desert to Syria. My father was actually born in Damascus.
Your father? My father, yeah. He was born in Damascus.

Speaker 2 When he was two years old, though, the family wanted to move back to the homeland. My grandfather really cared about that.

Speaker 2 So they moved to Armenia, but it was difficult because at that point, when the diaspora was moving back, the Armenians who never left, like there were cultural differences. Because think about it.

Speaker 2 I mean, if you're going to an Arab country, you take on some of their cultural practices and stuff. And then when you go back to Armenia, there's a little bit of a disconnect, you know? Always.

Speaker 2 So the prodigal son effect. Yeah.
So like there was a lot of Armenians who went to Syria, Lebanon. There's a huge Armenian community in Lebanon, Iran.

Speaker 2 In fact, there's a huge Armenian community in Iran till this day, Christian Armenians who are openly practicing their Christianity and going to church. In Iran? In Iran.
Yeah. Yep.
Yes.

Speaker 2 I have family members. And the way that Iran.
Why aren't they all genocided by Iran? I thought. Yeah, you would think that would happen, right?

Speaker 2 But no, there are Armenians in, they might not like the Ayatollah. They might not like the regime, but what they respect is the fact that they're still able to practice their religion.

Speaker 2 They're still able to go to church. For the most part, they're left alone.
And there's a huge Armenian population in Iran, I think. Yeah, that's the Armenian diaspora.

Speaker 2 They were originally refugees from the genocide. Yes.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I love Iranian Armenians. They're like among my favorite.
They're just, I don't know. I just think that they're actually a lot more open-minded, believe it or not.

Speaker 2 The diaspora that I come from is far more conservative and a little closed-minded, you know? So, but anyway, I just

Speaker 2 Armenians have been through a lot. They really have.
And they're all over the world because of the fact that they were forced out of their own country. They've done so well.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 They're hardworking people. They're good people, very family-oriented.
I'm very proud of my heritage, but I'm also very proud to be an American. And that's the the other thing about Armenians.

Speaker 2 They really love this country. They really do.
And they feel privileged to be here.

Speaker 2 If they immigrated here, they feel privileged. My parents came here as refugees in my dad in the late 1970s, my mom in the early 1980s.

Speaker 2 From where? So from Armenia, both of them from Armenia. Soviet-controlled at the time.
Yes. So at the time, there was an effort, obviously, to continue containing communism,

Speaker 2 but to help refugees who wanted to flee communism

Speaker 2 you know

Speaker 2 when it comes to immigration i think it's tricky right because i do think that a lot of people come to this country and they contribute to it

Speaker 2 without question yeah definitely and i think about the armenian community and like glendale is like the nicest part of la at this point if you ask me and it's because it's part of la county but it's not part of la city it's mostly populated by armenians and cubans by the way and it's beautiful glendale California is gorgeous.

Speaker 2 You know, they care. They care about their community.
They care about their families. They want to work hard.
You're always going to have bad apples.

Speaker 2 And recently there was like a crime ring, an Armenian crime ring that was caught and taken down. And I'm glad they got deported.
Fantastic.

Speaker 4 But most of them, they really, really care.

Speaker 2 An Armenian crime ring? Yeah. Was there a Mormon crime ring too? I don't know.
I've never heard of an Armenian crime ring.

Speaker 2 In LA, I mean, look, I don't want it to paint a picture of Armenians overall because there's a huge Armenian population and they're very successful and hardworking and they're.

Speaker 2 Yeah. But, you know, you're always going to have bad apples.
It happens. And I have no problem with them being brought to justice.
And that's what went down. I think the feds actually investigated it.

Speaker 2 And it was a multi-year investigation.

Speaker 2 And they were defrauding, you know, Medicare. There were like all sorts of financial crimes were taking place.

Speaker 2 Thank you for that. Yeah.
That's really, and the fact that Iran has a huge Christian population,

Speaker 2 I just think it's amazing.

Speaker 2 You cannot explain. No one ever talks about that because it goes against the grain.
It goes against the narrative of Iran.

Speaker 2 And again, that's not to say that the Iranian regime is fantastic and I support it. I don't.
And by the way, it's not my place. to determine who governs or who rules Iran.

Speaker 2 It's up to the Iranian people to

Speaker 2 you? Hell no. I live in America.
I'm an American. Who am I to tell any country who their leader should be? Who is our government? Like, we should not be meddling in

Speaker 2 those matters in any sovereign country. It's up to the people of that country to either rise up and demand something different

Speaker 2 or to reform the system, whatever they want to do. I'm not interested in regime change.
It's not my place at all.

Speaker 2 I am the choir and you are preaching.

Speaker 2 So, what happens to the media where you've spent your entire life? Like, what does it look like in five years?

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 I think cable news is in a lot of trouble. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because whether people want to believe it or not, I think most Americans are actually pretty smart and privy to the fact that they're not really getting the whole story when they watch traditional media, when they read legacy media.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 there's a lot more competition now online. And you have long form like this.
We're having a long form conversation where

Speaker 2 there's space to actually explore the complexities of various issues. And people love that.
People, people want to be mentally stimulated. I agree.
I'm never stimulated when I'm watching cable news.

Speaker 2 You know, maybe there are some examples. Like sometimes there's like a debate segment where I'm like, okay, that was a good segment.
I like that.

Speaker 2 I hate the uniformity of ideology that you get on cable news oftentimes. that bothers me.
I really, I will say this.

Speaker 2 I like Abby Phillips' show on CNN because that whole show is about bringing all sorts of people together from different perspectives to hash it out.

Speaker 2 And it remains for the most part pretty civil, but we're disagreeing and we're explaining why we disagree. And I like that.

Speaker 2 And she's had me on, even though I think most people in cable news probably see me as a controversial figure to some extent. But they have all sorts of people on and I love that.

Speaker 2 I just noticed I was saddened to see that the one conservative guy, the professional conservative on CNN, who I think seems clever. I'm not against him personally, I don't know him.

Speaker 2 But the second, you know, we learn that, oh, we're going to be bombing Iran now,

Speaker 2 he's all in.

Speaker 2 Yeah, he's all in. So I feel like he, I forget his name.
What was his name?

Speaker 2 He's on like often. I know who you're talking about, but

Speaker 2 the thing that kind of offends me at this point is when partisan hackery takes place. You know what I'm saying? Like, do I know what you're saying? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, yeah, I've heard about it.
Yeah. It really annoys, it annoys the crap out of me.
I'll give you that. I've participated in it.
Yeah. No, and that's the thing.

Speaker 2 Like, I give you credit because you have

Speaker 2 on multiple occasions admitted that like the neoconservative ideology that you had taken on was wrong. Um, I don't think most people.
I think it's evil. Yeah.
I think.

Speaker 2 I don't think most people who are against you on the left know how often you condemn yourself on your own podcast about that. So I just wanted to kind of draw attention to it.

Speaker 2 Well, I just think it's important not to pretend you're something that you're not. Yeah.
And just be honest. And,

Speaker 2 you know, I didn't kill anybody. I did cheer on the deaths of others, though, I will say, but, but whatever, we all make mistakes, but I think it's just important

Speaker 2 to be honest at all times. And I think that, you know, to the extent you can.
Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 2 But just going back to the partisan hackery, I was recently on, you know, Abby Phillips' show and we were talking about the Epstein files and whether or not, you know, they should be released.

Speaker 2 I'm in favor of releasing them. I think the American people deserve to know.
Obviously, but

Speaker 2 there was a conservative guy on the panel who immediately jumped to, well, why didn't the Democrats do it? And it's like, okay, sure, why didn't the Democrats? I don't, I don't care.

Speaker 2 I don't care about the partisan stuff. Okay.
Democrats didn't run on it. I'm not defending them.
I would have liked for them to be the ones who ran on it and actually did it, but they didn't.

Speaker 2 The one who ran ran on it, well, Trump didn't necessarily run on it, but he did.

Speaker 2 His voters want it. His voters want it.
Members of his administration kept like using the Epstein files as like bait to like entice the base.

Speaker 2 And then also at the same time, while Trump might not have ran on it, he did use the Epstein files to attack Democrats like Bill Clinton, right?

Speaker 2 So you're drawing attention to that and you're making the release of the Epstein files a lot more desirable to your base.

Speaker 2 To then turn around and engage in this like weird, what I believe to be a cover-up, not a good look, not a good look at all.

Speaker 2 So when we're having this discussion about what's happening at this very moment and the Republican guy immediately goes to Democrats bad, it's like, okay, I know the Democrats are bad.

Speaker 2 Can we just, let's talk about this moment right now where promises were made, but promises are not kept when it comes to this specific issue. Or the story itself.

Speaker 2 I mean, one of the problems with partisanship is it obscures the actual issue that

Speaker 2 I'd like to know more about. And so the Epstein thing, from my perspective, has been long known almost 20 years.

Speaker 2 The guy was a pervert and was involved in a, like, apparently a really significant sex ring. Yeah.
Okay. With some underage girls in it.
So the whole thing is gross. We knew that.
But what is it?

Speaker 2 Like, big picture. Like, what is that? Where did the money come from? No one can answer that question.

Speaker 2 Yeah. How did he make his money? How was he so wealthy? Nobody knows.
Yeah. Why did Les Wexner give him so much money? Julian Black.
Like, what is that? What's going on? Yeah, I know.

Speaker 2 So, what do you think the answer is? I think he was an intelligence asset. That's my suspicion.

Speaker 2 Period.

Speaker 2 Doing what?

Speaker 2 Blackmailing? Yeah, I think it was a blackmail operation. Why were there cameras in the rooms where girls were being raped? What did he do with that footage? What was the point of that footage?

Speaker 2 I have no cameras in any bedroom in my house. Neither do I.

Speaker 2 Normal people don't. Right.
Um,

Speaker 2 you know, he had relationships with people that were in intelligence.

Speaker 2 I mean, obviously, Robert Maxwell, Ghilane Maxwell's father,

Speaker 2 was a hardcore Zionist and worked for Mossad. I mean, this is well documented.
Yeah, I don't think anyone's. Yeah.
And he introduced Ghelane to Jeffrey Epstein.

Speaker 2 The fact that Jeffrey Epstein was a college dropout, but Bill Barr's father, who worked for the OSS,

Speaker 2 hired him to be a math teacher at the Dalton School, which is a prestigious school that would only hire like prestigious teachers. Jeffrey Epstein wasn't that.
He wasn't a prestigious teacher.

Speaker 2 He dropped out of college.

Speaker 2 I don't know. There's just a lot of smoke, and it's led to distrust in our institutions.
It's led to a lot of suspicions. And I would like to know, and I think this is very important,

Speaker 2 whether we live in a sovereign country where our politicians are actually representing us, or if we're living in a situation where a foreign country might have blackmail on our politicians or people in positions of power.

Speaker 2 And as a result, that blackmail is being used to force these politicians to pursue policies that are not beneficial to the American people, but beneficial to a foreign country.

Speaker 2 Do you really want to know, or will you admit that it's immoral of you to want to know and that maybe you just can't handle the truth?

Speaker 2 And maybe you're a hater for wanting to know i i want more than just me knowing i want every single american to know

Speaker 2 that's what i want yeah

Speaker 2 last question do you sincerely think that anybody on either side of the aisle which doesn't even exist but whatever left right wherever could watch what you've said for the last almost two hours and come away angry

Speaker 2 i i mean if you're zionist probably

Speaker 2 You didn't even say anything against Zionism. You're just like, I mean, I didn't, but it doesn't matter.
I mean, you're

Speaker 2 look, if the Jeffrey Epstein suspicions are ever confirmed, that looks really, really bad. And you'd want to prevent,

Speaker 2 you would want that information to never come out. So even talking about it, I feel really offends people for obvious reasons.
And so I don't know. We'll see.

Speaker 2 But this is the message that I want people who might feel angry to take away from me um

Speaker 2 i don't give a fuck

Speaker 2 that's it i i can't improve on that hannah thank you so much thank you

Speaker 2 we want to thank you for watching us on spotify a company that we use every day we know the people who run it good people while you're here do us a favor hit follow and tap the bell so you never miss an episode we have real conversations news things that actually matter.

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