Mavericks Fire Nico. What’s Next? Plus, Possible Anthony Davis Trades With J. Kyle Mann.

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Speaker 1 Coming up on the Zach Lowe Show, emergency, semi-emergency.

Speaker 1 The Dallas Mavericks fired Nico Harrison as general manager nine months after Harrison spearheaded the craziest,

Speaker 1 most unfathomable transaction, if not in the history of professional sports, then in the history of the NBA in trading Luka Doncic to the Lakers for Anthony Davis, Max Christie, and a first-round pick.

Speaker 1 What does it mean for the Mavericks, if anything? What does it mean for their fans? What does it mean for Anthony Davis?

Speaker 1 Who's almost 33 years old, six years older than Luca? One of the big issues I had with the trade at the time, an obvious one,

Speaker 1 an issue nonetheless. We go through some fake Anthony Davis trades for fun.
We sift through the wreckage of the Dallas Mavericks going from the NBA Finals in 2024, not that long ago, to this.

Speaker 1 And Jay, Kyle Mann talk about what this would be like if they didn't win the freaking lottery out of nowhere and get Cooper flag. What does it mean for Kyrie?

Speaker 1 You can imagine my flight out to Minneapolis where I'm doing a live show tomorrow night.

Speaker 1 I actually thought the woman sitting next to me was going to be concerned about my frenzied typing and how many trade machine windows and salary cap windows and tabs I had open on my laptop and just

Speaker 1 the intensity of my glare. So we're getting into all things Mavericks.
I don't know. Some other stuff probably comes up.
It went by in a blur. Coming up on the Zach Lowe show.

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Speaker 1 Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show live from an undisclosed location in Minneapolis, Minnesota, where we're doing our first live show ever tomorrow night. Sold out.
Thank you, Minnesota.

Speaker 1 On the way, it finally happened. The Dallas Mavericks, in an attempt to exercise the demons, to close the Pandora's box that they can't really close, to undo a trade that they can't undo.

Speaker 1 There's no control Z. Rob Palinka is not taking any of your calls.

Speaker 1 Fired Nico Harrison. They listened to the chants.
It's over. Jay Kyle, man, how are you?

Speaker 2 I'm doing well. I mean, is this the kind of thing where, you know, you open a box like some kind of sacred totem from the past? I forget how it happens in poltergeist, and the poltergeist comes out.

Speaker 2 And you can't, like, with your, you know, you can't like funnel it back in. You got to do a full-blown exorcism.
I guess the question is.

Speaker 2 Is this an exorcism or is this just

Speaker 2 to get the fans to stop chanting? How effective of a measure is this to move forward for them?

Speaker 1 You know, nine months ago, I had no job. It was in between jobs.

Speaker 1 And I did something I probably shouldn't have done, which was I put on this same exact hat, actually, as I remember it, and filmed a 15-minute reaction video to the most batshit, insane transaction in the history of the NBA.

Speaker 1 I had to. I couldn't resist.
I probably shouldn't have done it. It doesn't matter.
I did it.

Speaker 1 It's a trade that didn't make sense then. It doesn't make sense now.

Speaker 1 And it's November 2025.

Speaker 1 In June 2024, the Dallas Emperors are in the NBA finals. That's a thing that happened.

Speaker 1 Nine months ago, the trade happened. Anthony Davis, Max Christie.
Don't forget about Max Christie. Never forget about Max Christie.
And a first-round pick.

Speaker 1 Austin Bruce is averaging 30 points a game this year, by the way.

Speaker 1 For Luka Doncic.

Speaker 1 Nine months ago,

Speaker 1 the GM who made that trade, who spearheaded it, and it was his idea more than anybody else's, is fired

Speaker 1 by a new green owner who green-lit the trade for reasons no one will ever understand because probably he doesn't understand basketball and just did what his GM told him to, and has tried to mostly skirt responsibility for it since, including in firing the GM and issuing an apology, a letter to fans that doesn't even mention that a trade occurred.

Speaker 1 It just mentions that, oh, the unfortunate events of the last several months, undoing, undoing is not in the thing,

Speaker 1 what we all believed would be a promising season. You all believed it? I took the under.
So who believed it? Who believed this was going to be a promising season in the Western Conference?

Speaker 1 Nine months. It is a startling, startlingly fast admission of airing on the level of a catastrophe.
It is a startling admission of basketball transactional guilt in its speed.

Speaker 1 And Jay, Kyle Mann, the only thing that might be more startling than this, than the speed of all of this unfolding like this, is the delta between what the Dallas Mavericks gave up for Anthony Davis and what they are going to get back for Anthony Davis if and when they trade him.

Speaker 2 It will set the world record.

Speaker 1 for the biggest delta in trade returns for one single player in the history of professional sports.

Speaker 1 I do feel like we need to go back and look at the trade again. Can we do that before we move forward?

Speaker 2 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 The optimistic reading of whatever happened

Speaker 1 was that,

Speaker 1 and you could find, if you like looked under the covers and lifted up the couch, you could find a few people in the NBA who would kind of begin to nibble around this argument.

Speaker 1 Was that Luca's off-court habits were really bad. He was out of shape.
He was already suffering some leg issues, eligible for the biggest contract in the history of the NBA, would never stay healthy.

Speaker 1 Maybe it is Galaxy Brain smart to sell high now, get out of the Luca business now, and get whatever you can get for him.

Speaker 2 There's also the non-pliability of play style, right? You heard a lot of the like deep, crusty analytics people.

Speaker 2 I don't know if you ever caught wind of this on Twitter, where there'd be the people that make the argument like Luca's amazing in this heliocentric style, but he's so not not malleable.

Speaker 2 Like that, that this is the end point for this is not a title, like that they reached the highest heights that they could. I'd heard people make that argument.

Speaker 1 What were those people saying when the Mavericks were in the conference finals in 2022 and the finals in 2024? Oh, you know, they could win one finals game, but four is just unfathomable.

Speaker 1 They could get all the way there. They could go in three playoff series, three in 3.25 playoff series, but the whole thing unthinkable.
Unthinkable.

Speaker 1 But even that generous reading, even the people people who would begin to tiptoe toward it would say, even if you come to that conclusion, you don't have a secret coffee with Rob Polinka and tell no one else around the league that you might think about doing this.

Speaker 1 And hey, what could you give me for Luka Dante? I was actually joking with a team official in New York,

Speaker 1 just someone who happened to be in New York, not an X or a Nets person last week. We were talking about this.

Speaker 1 And we were thinking, could you imagine being Rob Polinka for the month or whatever it was from that coffee until the trade?

Speaker 1 I would have been paranoid every single second of my life that somebody was going to talk Nico Harrison out of it.

Speaker 1 I would have been, it would have been like 20 years ago when I liked a girl and it was like, I don't know, should I call Nico?

Speaker 1 Should I call Nico today and check in? Or is that, is that too aggressive? Am I going to see too meaty?

Speaker 2 Brittle

Speaker 1 give it a couple more days before I check in. Like, what should I, should I write out what I'm going to say? Like, hey, Nico, how, how's your family? Should I start with the weather?

Speaker 1 That's how I would have been.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 And then the actual rational take on the trade was

Speaker 1 defense wins championships. Okay.

Speaker 1 You just got to the finals with a team that was good enough on defense to win the championship.

Speaker 1 You traded a top three player in the NBA to go up in age six years and shrink your window for championship contention by minimum half.

Speaker 1 Oh, by the way, you shrunk it during a time in which you already don't control your first-round picks because of good trades you made to surround the guy you're trading out.

Speaker 1 And you are shrinking that championship window around at least one injury-prone player who, surprise, has been injured almost the entire time that he's been in Dallas.

Speaker 1 And that's leaving aside Kyrie Irving's ACL.

Speaker 1 When you shorten your window like that, I've said it a million times before, you make yourselves unduly vulnerable to the vicissitudes of the injury gods who seem to target Anthony Davis more than they target most superstars.

Speaker 1 And so here we are, and God forgive the Mavericks, they at least control their draft pick this year, and that is going to end up saving them almost as much as the 2025 lottery will save them.

Speaker 1 Because if that is just a guy, if that's just, I mean, Cedric Howard is the guy who's picked in that spot. He's going to be amazing.
He looks like a future star, if not a superstar.

Speaker 1 If it's just a random 11th pick,

Speaker 1 this may already be the most audacious and brazen destruction of a great team in the shortest amount of time in the history of sports. Absent the Cooper flag thing,

Speaker 1 it would be literally unfathomable. And so here we are, Nico Harrison is gone.
And it ain't bringing Luca back. It ain't making Kyrie healthy.
It ain't making AD healthy.

Speaker 1 It isn't bringing all the staff members who left or who were fired back.

Speaker 1 Maybe it brings Dirk back into the fold a little bit. Boy, oh boy, where do you want to start? I don't know.
I said a lot of stuff.

Speaker 1 It is a really cinematic, like HBO drama-level story arc, except this show would have lasted half a season and gotten canceled instead of like, I couldn't even get four seasons of succession out of this.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean,

Speaker 2 if you were trying to like explain the rationale of the way your characters behave, if you were in a screenwriting class, I feel like everybody would be like, wait, I don't,

Speaker 2 they wouldn't do that. I mean, I always say a great barometer for this is my wife is the most.

Speaker 2 not connected, does not give a crap about sports at all. Like, we'll look up at like when the halftime show comes on, but will not watch the games, nothing.

Speaker 2 And she came home and was like, they traded Luka Donchich? Really?

Speaker 2 That just speaks to the level. And I think for you, Zach, this is opportunistic because you're doing your first live show in Minnesota.

Speaker 2 I think you have like 30 minutes of point-and-laugh material already.

Speaker 2 I mean, this crowd's going to eat this up. What a better time for this to happen, right?

Speaker 1 They're also on my list of fake Anthony Davis trade destinations, which we're going to get to pretty soon.

Speaker 2 I didn't even consider them.

Speaker 1 Could be an awkward. If Tim Connolly crashes the stage like he's threatening to do,

Speaker 1 could be time to put his feet. Hopefully Rudy's not listening.

Speaker 2 We'll get there.

Speaker 1 We'll get there.

Speaker 2 Where does this rank in terms of like, I was talking to somebody about just utter betrayal? I mean, the Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers, I'm forgetting like the, the, I mean,

Speaker 2 that's the thing is, like, we're talking about the basketball thing. This is a business.

Speaker 2 And the business, and a lot of the business is, you see this around the John Morant stuff is that he's so important to the culture of that city.

Speaker 2 You know, he puts butts in the seats. Ultimately,

Speaker 2 it's a business at the end of the day. With Luca,

Speaker 2 I'm just trying to think of like.

Speaker 2 franchises, front offices betraying, you know, the Seattle OKC thing is way up there at the top.

Speaker 1 I remember talking about this, I can't remember with who, right when I came to Spotify Ringer,

Speaker 1 as the noise was just never stopping, the fire and eco chants were sweeping all over the southwest.

Speaker 1 And I remember asking somebody, like, can you remember a time of a single fan base being alienated to this degree?

Speaker 1 And the only comparisons we can come up with were literal relocations of franchises where the franchise was gone and taken away from a fan base.

Speaker 2 Like the Browns, right? I mean,

Speaker 2 that happened in the 90s, I think. That was a kid, I remember.

Speaker 1 And by the way,

Speaker 1 Michael Finley and Matt Riccardi, and I've known Matt for quite a long time, dating to his time in Brooklyn, are now the co-GMs because that's going to work.

Speaker 1 The co-GM thing is going to work of the Mavericks.

Speaker 1 Just this Patrick Dumont did not even mention a trade or Luca by name in his letter.

Speaker 1 Are those two people able to stand up publicly and say, oh, I was the one in the room saying, don't do it, stop doing it? I don't know the answer to that question.

Speaker 1 I haven't, there's conflicting intel.

Speaker 1 I've definitely heard that there were people once they found out who tried to, if not stop it, then say, hey, let's pause, reconsider. I don't know where these guys stood.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 if these guys can't come out and truthfully say, in a way that no one else in those rooms can rebut privately, according to sources, that they stood up against this trade, I don't think they're going to last as the co-GMs of the team.

Speaker 1 Like, forget Patrick Dumont, who everything that comes out of his mouth or out of his pen or out of his typewriter is more ludicrous than the previous thing.

Speaker 1 Remember when he omitted Dirk as like an example of

Speaker 1 franchise longevity and conditioning and commitment to the game?

Speaker 1 But it mentions Shaq?

Speaker 2 That to me read like somebody.

Speaker 2 You mentioned not a basketball person.

Speaker 2 That read to me like somebody was in his ear maybe and said, because if you had any kind of baseline of sports knowledge at all, I think you would have been like, Shaq, really?

Speaker 2 I don't even think you needed to be way in the weeds.

Speaker 2 That's what I heard whenever he said that. I mean, that was pretty ridiculous.

Speaker 1 You've been watching Cooper Flag play basketball much longer than I have.

Speaker 1 I listened to you on group chat this week talking about Cooper Flag, Point Flag,

Speaker 1 the sort of gradual move away from Point Flag. He had a fantastic game last night against Milwaukee and a loss.

Speaker 1 I almost just don't, like, it's not even interesting for me to just, like, he's going to be awesome. I don't know what form of awesome that takes, what kind of player archetype he becomes.

Speaker 1 He's going to be awesome. The team, had they been healthy, would not be three and eight or three and nine or whatever they are.

Speaker 1 They would be competitive, but you know, I don't think they were going to make any noise in the West this year in a serious way. They were always playing for next year.
And

Speaker 1 who knows? But now they have this opportunity to, in an absolutely loaded draft,

Speaker 1 get a tag team partner for Cooper Fly because I think this, like, this AD, Kyrie, flag thing, like, it's, the whole thing is so toxic now, but I, I, I, I'm not even, like, I'm not even curious.

Speaker 1 It's like, oh, I got, like, give it 25 games. I want to see how it works.
Like,

Speaker 1 this thing, for the sake of the fans, just needs to move in an entirely different direction. Maybe, maybe, maybe I'm being too in the moment of it, but that's what it feels like to me.

Speaker 2 What do you think that dictates about, I mean, you're right, like this, this upcoming draft is, I think, even better than the one we just had.

Speaker 2 I mean, it is very, very, very, very well stocked with talent. I mean, what do you think that, how do you think that'll affect when they decide to make a move?

Speaker 2 Because, I mean, I'm not sure exactly how long.

Speaker 2 I assume Kyrie just go ahead and push it out the rest of the year. He's not going to play at all.
You can't risk being even feisty.

Speaker 2 Like when you're looking at who they might trade for,

Speaker 2 I'm curious,

Speaker 2 when do you think that they're going to make a move based on that motivation to just try to get as good a pick? Granted,

Speaker 2 their leap up to the top of the draft draft this past summer was pretty unprecedented. But, yeah, what do you think about that?

Speaker 1 It's part of the vision, man.

Speaker 2 Do you think they're going to wait until the summer, or what do you think at the deadline, basically, is what I mean?

Speaker 1 Oh, I mean, look, if I'm Anthony Davis, do I want to be here?

Speaker 1 Do I want to be on this team? I'm 33 years old almost. I'm already injured a lot.

Speaker 1 I've been on.

Speaker 1 very good teams since I left New Orleans.

Speaker 1 I don't know what this is, but I know. And the fans have not taken out on Anthony Davis.

Speaker 1 They know it wasn't his flex, but he's always going to be somewhat symbolic of it. Now, let's go back to Kyrie.

Speaker 1 I think in a world where Dallas is a decent team and none of this goes haywire like this,

Speaker 1 he comes back at some point in the season.

Speaker 1 And there was all this sort of competing intel about when and how his recovery was going. If Dallas just stinks, I don't know, does he want to come back? Does he push to come back?

Speaker 1 Do they push him not to come back?

Speaker 1 Do other teams who could use a point guard? People have thrown out Houston. I mean, you start throwing around these big salaries.
It's harder than people think. Orlando, whatever.

Speaker 1 Do you trade for a guy coming off an ACL injury? How do you even evaluate that? It's difficult. Anthony Davis, I mean, I can tell you teams are already having

Speaker 1 internal conversations. Like, what would the price point be? What do we think their price point is going to be? Obviously, this is like a shell shock time for the Mavericks' new front office.

Speaker 1 I don't think anything is really going on. It's before December 15th, when the free agency signed over the summer can be traded.
Really, it's almost impossible to make anything happen.

Speaker 1 So there is going to be time.

Speaker 1 It's early. There's no hard intel yet.

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 I know, I think Mark Stein, who was ahead of this story from the beginning, tweeted something to the effect of Rich Paul and the Mavericks have a strong relationship. That's cool.
Like, I don't, I

Speaker 1 there's going, I would, there's going to be Anthony Davis trade talks of some seriousness. Whether they result in a a deal or not is impossible to say.
I would bet on yes.

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Speaker 2 What do we think? I mean, who is going to be mo? Do you think there's going to be a team? Is there a team that is on, that is close that thinks they can compete this year?

Speaker 2 Or do you think that it's a next two years thing? Like based on your, because it's pretty iffy. I mean, he's, he's, what, is he 33 now?

Speaker 1 Almost 33. Luka is almost 27, six years up.
It's emblazoned in my brain. Almost exactly six years up.

Speaker 2 Who's going to be most motivated to do it, though?

Speaker 1 Is it somebody that you think this year thinks they have a legitimate shot or is it somebody like the kings who's just like why not i think the kings are going to go the other way and just try like try to like hell to just get out of this team and tank and that's it and they're going to realize that their guys don't have a lot of trade value but that's a different story for the hashtag kings um

Speaker 1 i you say motivated i say desperate

Speaker 2 you'd have to be desperate you'd have to be you'd have to be like

Speaker 2 Maybe it'll work for us. The Tobias and the thing from Arrested Development because

Speaker 2 the injury history is just not great now. What can you really get out of him? I think you'd have to be desperate to get to that point.

Speaker 1 So I have mentioned on this podcast several times that I can't believe no one or very few people are talking publicly about

Speaker 1 Anthony Davis being contract extension eligible at the end of this season as one of the biggest looming issues facing any team in the NBA.

Speaker 1 And it may not be an issue anymore facing the Dallas Mavericks at this point.

Speaker 1 He makes $54 million this year, 58.5 million next year, and he's eligible for a contract extension based on that number in the summer of 2026.

Speaker 1 And guys of Anthony Davis' stature tend to want contract extensions at or near their maximum, despite their age and their injury history.

Speaker 1 That extension,

Speaker 1 let's just say it's like a four-year, $240 million extension. I don't know how many teams have the appetite to do that.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 it is and will hurt Anthony Davis' trade value.

Speaker 1 It has the potential to be

Speaker 1 kind of an anvil on your salary cap sheet, as great of a player as he is, because he's only getting older and it's just a huge number in a second apron world where people are capable of it.

Speaker 1 So that's why I say desperate. You want me to give you some teams or do you have thoughts on any more Anthony Davis things?

Speaker 2 I guess we just need to figure out, at this point, offensively, it doesn't seem like he's going to change a whole lot. He came into this season.

Speaker 2 I mean, his sort of fly-around nature, I feel like, was always his superpower, his ability to basically be the goalie on the area inside the arc.

Speaker 2 If he's going to get bigger and heavier and more plotting, at that point, you're like, all right, are you going to give me like something on the offensive end? Are you going to change?

Speaker 2 Not betting on that. Are you going to give me some of that like LaMarcus Aldridge

Speaker 2 pick and pop sort of stuff?

Speaker 2 I just don't see him offensively changing. And if he's not physically going to

Speaker 2 be that guy, I'm just trying to think of the guys who have aged, who have been in his similar player type.

Speaker 2 It doesn't bode well. It really doesn't.

Speaker 1 Saying that, when he's healthy, he's a top 15 player in the NBA and one of the five to six best defensive players in the NBA. Like, let's not.

Speaker 2 When's the last time? When was the last time he was that, though, in your opinion?

Speaker 1 I think when he was healthy last year, he was that. When he was healthy the year before, he was that.
It just hasn't been. I mean, you look at his game logs.
I'm bringing them up right now.

Speaker 1 He's already missing games this year. He played 51 total last year, 76, two years ago with the Lakers.
And then before that, 56, 40, 36, 62, 56. And you start to get worried.

Speaker 1 This is why I took the under on the Mavericks this year. Am I cashing in that one, as Bill would say? I don't bet, but if I did, I might cash it in.

Speaker 1 I think he's been at that level of player pretty much whenever he's been healthy recently.

Speaker 1 Okay, can we do some teams? Yeah, let's do it. Because like, what else are we going to do? Talk about how much the Luca trade sucked? It sucked.

Speaker 1 Indeed,

Speaker 1 do you have his defense for the Luca trade that you've been waiting to unveil all this time?

Speaker 2 No, man. I've just, I've told you, I've heard some of those guys who like have their own, you know, those, there's a different level of stack guy where they start having their own proprietary thing.

Speaker 2 And you'd hear guys get those galaxy brain takes and be like, actually, Luca's bad. He's so good.
And it's like, what are you? What exactly are you talking about?

Speaker 2 No, man.

Speaker 2 And also, it's kind of funny, too, because I was reading back over Nico's history and I totally forgot that he was the guy who copy-pasted Steph's name onto the Kevin Durant pitch deck for Nike.

Speaker 2 I don't know if you remember it.

Speaker 1 I do remember that. And Under Armour says thank you, I guess.

Speaker 2 Yes, they do.

Speaker 2 Yeah, let's talk about it. Do you have

Speaker 1 there were all these rumors already that the long-term vision for Nico Harrison in Dallas was

Speaker 1 he would take over like the president role. JK would move to the front office and they'd find a new coach.

Speaker 1 And I remember telling people a year ago, six months ago, it's not going to be tenable for him to have any public-facing job with the Dallas. Anyway,

Speaker 1 so let's just start with like desperate.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 here's the lay of the land. Dallas is over the first apron.
I know this is boring for people. It just is what it is, which means they cannot take back more money than they send out in a trade.

Speaker 1 Anthony Davis makes $54 million. You can play around with adding more more salaries to bring back more players.
That's just a simple mathematical reality.

Speaker 1 They could not take back more than they send out in a trade.

Speaker 1 Here are the desperate teams that stood out to me:

Speaker 1 the Clippers,

Speaker 1 who are also hard-capped at the first apron and not that far under it, which makes the math very difficult. And the Brooklyn Nets are calling on the other line with $15 million in unused cap space.

Speaker 1 Being like, we will help any and all of you who want to execute this mega trade for a price.

Speaker 1 We want to draft some more untested young guys.

Speaker 2 Non-shooting ball handlers.

Speaker 2 Who's outgoing for Clippers in that situation?

Speaker 1 Well, you'd have to build it around Collins, Bogdanovich, Brooke Lopez, or Derrick Jones Jr. as the third guy.

Speaker 1 And even that comes up a little short of how much the Clippers would need to send out to stay clear of the first apron. And you want to say picks.

Speaker 1 I mean, the Clippers, the Clippers do control, I think, at least one pick, maybe two down the line. I just like, again, I'm prepping Dallas fans.

Speaker 1 I don't know that you're getting like three unprotected first-round picks plus this poo-poo platter of players I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 So then you'd have to add in more Clippers players, and Dallas would have to add in more players. That's where the third team comes in.
That was the thought. Does he fit great with Zoo?

Speaker 1 I don't know. Like, it's, you just said all this stuff about his offense and how he plays center.
Basically, Zoo's a great center. They're not trading Zoo in this scenario.

Speaker 1 I just think you're like, what we have may not be working well enough.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 let's take a shot on being like a crazy good defensive team and have hardened Kyrie AD and Zoo. By the way, the funniest possible trade is Kawhi for AD.
Just like,

Speaker 1 take this and take some aspiration sweatshirts.

Speaker 2 We both need a palette cleanse.

Speaker 1 Even that doesn't work under the apron rules. So that was one thought.
Any thoughts on Clippers? Clippers, by the way, look bad on both ends of the floor. And in the Clippers' defense,

Speaker 1 I remember arguing with Bill about this. I don't think the Clippers thought they were like title contenders with this group.

Speaker 1 I think they were pretty realistic about if things go well, we're a 48 to 50 win team, fourth seed, need to catch some breaks in the playoffs to beat the juggernauts above us or have any chance.

Speaker 1 They look much worse than that right now. Thoughts?

Speaker 2 Yeah, if you get a team that is glacial by nature and by age,

Speaker 2 by progression of age, yeah, naturally, let's throw Anthony Davis in there.

Speaker 2 I mean, defensively, it's interesting because you would have some matchups in the West that could be pretty interesting if they got, you know, in a situation to play the Rockets, but I still think the Rockets would just jump on their heads like a younger dog on an older dog.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 yeah,

Speaker 2 I guess the attractive thing is if you're looking for like expirings and picks, right?

Speaker 2 If you can get, you know, Bogdan is, of course, you're getting him for two years, Collins for a year, player option.

Speaker 2 I don't know. I don't love that one.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 To be clear, I'm not going to give you any deal that you're going to do back flips over. If you are,

Speaker 1 yeah, the Clippers can trade a couple of picks they've already swapped, so you're getting a bad pick likely. And then I think 2031 or 32 they can trade.

Speaker 1 This is a little out of left field, and we're not going in order of likelihood. I'm just going in order sort of thematically.

Speaker 1 The Bucs always seem to pull a rabbit out of a hat. And you can make a deal of Kuzma plus Miles Turner Turner plus a first-round pick for Anthony Davis.

Speaker 1 I'm just saying, like, the team's playing pretty well. And again, whatever team trades for Anthony Davis, like, you got to eat that extension, probably.

Speaker 1 And that's a big deal. And you're trading, you know, Miles Turner's a good player on a much smaller salary.
I'm just, they always, again, I have no clue.

Speaker 1 It's not like I've talked to the Bucs about this. It's just happened today.
That's, you know, just Giannis and AD.

Speaker 1 Okay. I mean, I could, I could get with that.

Speaker 2 I'd watch that. I'd click that on league pass more often than not.
I mean, spatially, I think it'd be pretty interesting how that would work.

Speaker 2 But those two defensively, God, if you got even a couple good years defensively out of AD, that would be pretty fascinating to put those two next to each other.

Speaker 2 I don't know. Availability-wise, are you just going to get miles for longer? So that would talk me out of that at that price would probably be more attractive than swinging for AD.

Speaker 1 That's the end of my truly desperate teams. Before we get to another thematic group of teams, let me just give you the funny teams.
The Lakers.

Speaker 2 I mean, that's the, that's the, they have the opportunity to be the funny team.

Speaker 1 No shot.

Speaker 2 Luca in AD is like, if you were picking,

Speaker 2 if we were going to play the aliens in a three-on-three game and I got healthy Anthony Davis with Luca, I'd be like, we're going to win. We're going to save the Earth.

Speaker 1 Unless that was the vision

Speaker 1 and Nico is going to be the president of the Lakers in two months.

Speaker 1 But I don't see it.

Speaker 1 The Pelicans,

Speaker 1 also non-starter. Anthony Davis used to play for the Pelicans.

Speaker 1 A very fun one that will not happen because the timelines don't intersect, but I would pay to watch it happen is Charlotte.

Speaker 1 Let's just get crazy in the Eastern Conference. Let's look at Momello, AD.
Like, let's go nuts. Okay, that ends the fun teams.

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Speaker 1 Where are you on Lamello, by the way? Are you a Lamello believer like I am?

Speaker 2 We talked about this.

Speaker 2 I've been

Speaker 2 an apologist for a long time.

Speaker 2 My argument has always just been

Speaker 2 We tend to treat, I said this on group chat just the other day, is we tend to treat really, really creative, kind of wild breaking probably breaking more eggs than are necessary to to make the omelette players we treat them this way early in their careers like would you just get fucking serious kind of thing like we treated yokic that way you remember i remember do you remember jokic in those early years when he was just like pouting and throwing fits and his face was red and he wasn't guarding anybody we were like man he can pass the ball though i don't know i just kind of have that feeling about Even Curry, to an extent, people treated him this way.

Speaker 2 Granted, we'll have to see some signs of life. I'm just holding out.

Speaker 1 I can't get with either of those comparisons.

Speaker 1 Even in terms of perception, I can't. But we're moving on.

Speaker 1 We're not here to argue about Lamello Ball,

Speaker 1 who I like and have been

Speaker 1 optimistic about.

Speaker 2 So you're off the wagon. You're just not.
No, no, no, no.

Speaker 1 No, what I meant was I was never anything but giddy about Jokic. And to me, the only thing with Curry was injuries.
That was the only concern. But that's me.
Okay. Teams that make some.

Speaker 1 Okay, I guess I have one more desperate team that I just think it's too wild to happen.

Speaker 1 What if Orlando just keeps sucking or treading water?

Speaker 1 Suggs.

Speaker 2 I thought about this one.

Speaker 1 Declining contract. He's been very productive when he plays, and his minutes restriction is getting higher and higher and will eventually be lifted.
But it's a long contract. It does decline.

Speaker 1 Suggs plus Isaac. Do I need to throw in Wendell Carter Jr.
maybe to upgrade at center? Not throwing in Franz. I'm not throwing in Paolo.

Speaker 1 I just, Franz plus Paolo plus AD is going to be, I think, a rough fit on offense. It's going to be a little clunky.

Speaker 1 And it's a very unmagic thing to do, having already done the one big move for Bain. Just wanted to mention them.

Speaker 2 They're on the list, though. Yeah, I had Jed Howard at five and a half, two years, Isaac at 15 for four, and then Suggs at 35 for five.
I had that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, that would be...

Speaker 2 It would make it stagnant, but we were talking about the magic the other day, and I was like, if you just, if your five was not wishy-washy, it was like he's either a popper, he's either a roller, you'd at least be committal in one direction.

Speaker 2 I mean, it would be ugly, they'd be bludgeoning people to death. Um, it'd be a bet in that direction.
And I don't think the offense would be getting smoother.

Speaker 2 I don't know how could you even make that work on offense? You'd have to, somebody, somebody would have to make some kind of choice. Um,

Speaker 2 because if players are being who they are, that that would be ugly.

Speaker 2 Uh,

Speaker 1 Portland, I'm gonna deem too soon and too much money.

Speaker 1 Um,

Speaker 2 Toronto

Speaker 1 Team's okay.

Speaker 1 Too expensive to just be okay, but okay. Front office that is probably

Speaker 1 in a prove it to the new guys in charge sort of stage of their careers after Messiah Jiri left or slash was kicked out, whatever the term you want to use. Quickly, Purdle.

Speaker 1 So I'm getting a center back.

Speaker 1 And I might have to include like a couple of first-round picks and or Murray Boyles because those two contracts I mentioned are long and like not super duper attractive right now.

Speaker 1 But they just need to be, I think they need to be mentioned as a potentially monitoring the situation team.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you're getting close with the money there.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I was I was trying to make it work. My initial thought was was RJ and quickly

Speaker 2 trying to figure out how they could how they could make that work. But you're right, the disposition of the of the franchise seems like

Speaker 2 this has been lingering long enough in this post, you know, I don't know if you could say we're still in the post-title fog, but they've been trying to find a way out of this sort of just

Speaker 2 you know, mess, whatever it is, trying to find an identity.

Speaker 2 And it's kind of lingering to the point where it's like something's got to give, and you could see them maybe pulling the trigger on something like this. But

Speaker 2 yeah, that's the justification I can see for even trying it.

Speaker 1 But Minnesota is also a first apron team, which means they cannot take back more money than they send out.

Speaker 1 And so you're talking about a two-team trade where it has to be like a dollar-for-dollar match, aka it's impossible. So you need to involve a third team.

Speaker 1 And Gobert, after a shaky start, is starting to look like Gobert again. So, right now, if I'm Minnesota, I'm like, I'm glad that nothing's going to happen for a while because I want to see what I got.

Speaker 1 But Tim Connolly is showing he is not afraid to take big swings.

Speaker 1 Davis for Gobert plus Connolly plus, do I need to throw Dillingham in as a sweetener? That's a big sweetener.

Speaker 1 It's a top 10 pick in the draft that you, as a front office, have not given up on for sure.

Speaker 1 I just, I've reached a point with Minnesota where like I'm never excluding them after the Rudy trade and the Towns trade from discussions like this. But I like the way they're playing.

Speaker 1 And this is not the subject of this podcast. But I just want to say, holy shit, is Jaden McDaniels getting good?

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 he's somebody, yeah, he'd be absolutely off limits if you had this conversation. I kind of feel like offensively,

Speaker 2 I kind of like the basketball fit there more than I thought. When you initially mentioned this, it would kind of open the middle up a little bit.

Speaker 2 I know, you know, Randall and Davis can both kind of come and go in terms of their shooting.

Speaker 2 I don't know. You like that basketball fit? I kind of do.

Speaker 1 I do. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I do. It's, it's, yeah, the sheer talent is really interesting.

Speaker 1 And to your point,

Speaker 1 like... The mystery of what happened to Anthony Davis' jump shot post-bubble has never been solved, but Rudy Gobert has no jump shot.

Speaker 1 Functionally in NBA games, I always say this about, like, this guy has no jump shot. If Rudy Gobert appeared at like an open gym, you'd be like, this guy's the best shooter I've ever seen in this gym.

Speaker 1 But functionally in NBA court, he doesn't have one. So Anthony Davis is like not really changing that for the Wolves.
I don't, you know, it's a little early for any of that.

Speaker 1 I keep seeing Miami brought up.

Speaker 1 I guess because you just have to bring them up.

Speaker 1 The way the math works there is Rogier,

Speaker 1 currently embroiled

Speaker 1 in stuff,

Speaker 1 plus pick one of Tyler Hero, currently injured and extension eligible in his own right.

Speaker 1 Norman Powell, back healthy, playing his butt off, or Andrew Wiggins having maybe the best season of his career, even including the Golden State all-star season, pretty close to it anyway.

Speaker 1 So one of those three plus Rogier. Obviously, if I'm Dallas, I want wear, despite the fact that I already have centers and or picks in the Heat, I I have a couple of picks to trade.
You know.

Speaker 1 Do you want wear?

Speaker 2 What about Dallas's? Should you be thinking about the fours and fives that are already there? Or are we just assuming that we're going to be wiping the dry race board?

Speaker 1 I can move pieces around.

Speaker 1 If he's got trade value, bring him to me and I can move him around.

Speaker 1 If I'm the Heat, like AD and BAM is an interesting fit. Obviously, defensively, team USA teammates.

Speaker 1 Defensively, they'd be awesome. I don't know how A-Deep fits the offensive system that they're running this year.
Just so fast, crazy off-the-dribble driving, just crazy number one in pace.

Speaker 1 But the talent is the talent. I do know, like, Norm Powell fits the system really well and is eligible for a contract extension and will make much less money than Anthony Davis.

Speaker 1 And Andrew Wiggins is playing great.

Speaker 1 Miami takes a look at everything.

Speaker 1 I don't know that that's a particularly enticing package if I'm the Mavericks.

Speaker 1 Again, I I just don't know where the crazy package is going to be. Okay, now I have two other teams.
I call, I'm calling them, I keep seeing, I keep seeing them suggested teams.

Speaker 2 Ready?

Speaker 1 Uh, because he's from Chicago, Anthony Davis, the Bulls, now on a three-game losing streak and probably pretty desperate to remain in this feel-good vibe that their six-in-one star created, keep coming up.

Speaker 1 And you could easily build a deal that you could sell like Vucevic plus Kobe White plus Pat Williams plus the Portland pick plus a Bulls pick like Pylon.

Speaker 1 And then I've got an interesting team. What I lose is the,

Speaker 1 I mean, Vucci's shooting goes up and down, but the way he plays clears the paint for Giddy. And Anthony Davis doesn't play like that.

Speaker 1 And so this just Josh Giddy freight train to the rim that's happening is going to go away. Not go away.
It's going to be trickier in that sense. But, you know,

Speaker 1 it's the Bulls, man. Like, the Bulls have good cap flexibility going forward almost no matter what.
Like this would almost be a free agency signing for them in a way. You could sell me on it.

Speaker 1 It's an identity change midstream during a happy time for a franchise that hasn't had many in the last five to eight years, but you could sell me on it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and the Kobe White part of it is interesting too, because he hasn't played during this run that they've been on. He's expiring.
Like you said, Booch is expiring.

Speaker 2 I had Akoro and Jalen Smith making the math work in my version of it. I had them down as another,

Speaker 2 but you're right. I mean, it's just, we were talking about this the other day on group chat about Giddy that

Speaker 2 his style of play does sort of imply a certain type of player that is hard to get.

Speaker 2 You can either get the stretch big and then you're compromising the rim protection, which you'd be getting with AD, but then you'd be kind of creating problems for, I don't know how many outcomes there are to kind of maintain the highest levels of what Giddy's going to do offensively.

Speaker 2 What center, Zach Lowe, does that even look like? Who is that guy? A Miles Turner?

Speaker 1 How many of them are

Speaker 1 the theory of Porzingis that plays 65 games a year?

Speaker 1 Somebody like that, because Josh Giddy needs the paint to do what he's doing now.

Speaker 1 But NBA players are also very malleable. They're super talented and they kind of adapt to circumstances.

Speaker 1 And maybe Josh Giddy having carte blanche over the paint is good for a certain amount of wins and not for as many wins as you should really want to aspire to. Time will tell this season.

Speaker 1 Other team that I keep seeing suggested, and this is one I have to say, I don't like, and I almost don't understand why they're being so often suggested for it already, is Detroit.

Speaker 1 I've got Jalen Duran. I've got Isaiah Stewart.
I have the number two or three defense in the NBA already and the best rim protection in the NBA.

Speaker 1 I have negative shooting around Cade Cunningham for the most part. I just don't, I don't love this idea.
that this is the win-now trade. Do they have the assets for a win-now trade? Sure.

Speaker 1 I think Markinen's a much better fit there than Anthony Davis, to the point that if I'm Detroit, I'm kind of,

Speaker 1 this one doesn't interest me. I don't know if you disagree.

Speaker 2 I had them down as well. I mean, to make it, to make it work, it was Ivy and Tobias expiring.

Speaker 1 Ivy and Tobias are the fulcrums of a deal. And then you've got to add a Duncan Robinson or an Isaiah Stewart to make the money work, I think.

Speaker 2 But then you're eating into Cade's comfort on court, right? So it's like,

Speaker 2 we want to go the other way.

Speaker 1 And Ivy,

Speaker 1 you know, didn't get an extension.

Speaker 1 I want to see what that looks like with this coaching staff and with a roster that's more prepared to win and a little bit tougher and more experienced than they were two years ago.

Speaker 1 The last time, you know, not two. We saw Ivy last year, but for a limited amount of time.

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 1 I mean, he'd be the prize for Dallas, right? Like, that's the young chip you sell, plus maybe you get a pick or pick and a half or something.

Speaker 1 I don't know. If I'm Detroit, I'm not.
Unless the next six weeks goes like horribly in a lot of different ways, like I just don't love that.

Speaker 1 I love Durin. I like Isaiah Stewart.
Anthony Davis's best asset is his defense. And we're kind of set there.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 I wouldn't go for that one either because I just, I think the idea,

Speaker 2 the marketing thing is way more attractive to me. Now, granted, you can just kind of hold out forever and hope that that happens.

Speaker 2 There's, I don't know if there's a comfortable thing even out there for them that's, that's akin to marketing, but no, I don't, I don't love it. I had a really

Speaker 1 oh, go ahead. Sorry, no, no, no.
I mean, but that's the thing with like this marketing dream. You hear teams talk about this all the time, and they're right.

Speaker 1 It's why the Knicks traded all their Giannis stuff and their Embiid stuff for Mikael Bridges. Like, well, we just can't wait forever.

Speaker 2 Like, we have a good team.

Speaker 1 We can't wait forever for the perfect guy. We just got to go for who's ever available to us.
And do they regret it now? I don't know. The Knicks look awesome.

Speaker 1 I don't, I don't know that they should regret it. Um,

Speaker 1 so you do hear that sort of perfect is the enemy of good rationale. In this case,

Speaker 1 I'd rather wait for the unknown

Speaker 1 than

Speaker 1 go for Anthony Davis. And if marketing never becomes available to me, somebody else will or somebody else's will, and I'd rather just wait for that.

Speaker 1 You had a wild something you wanted to get off of chest.

Speaker 2 This one is probably not feasible, but I was going to throw it to you as a workshop, a workshopping starting point because the money is very similar. You might know where I'm going with this.

Speaker 2 AD and Paul George.

Speaker 1 Oh my God.

Speaker 2 Is that a starting point for something?

Speaker 1 Philly is trading Paul George?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 All right. Let me look at there.

Speaker 1 Paul's got three years left.

Speaker 1 Money is very similar. 51 this year, 54, 56.

Speaker 1 Okay, let me just think it through.

Speaker 2 This is what I wanted.

Speaker 1 I'm just trying to think if I'm Dallas,

Speaker 1 what am I doing?

Speaker 1 I mean, the salary is the same, so

Speaker 1 I'm not getting any longer dead money. I'm getting the same amount of money, but less production, most likely.
What else am I getting?

Speaker 1 It's too funny to suggest that they get Quentin Grimes back and undo the other horrible trade that the Dallas Mavericks made at the same time they made the Luca trade.

Speaker 1 Am I getting, I mean, the Sixers have a Clippers pick that looks pretty interesting. I'm like, can I squeeze McCain, who's really good, but has not played very much in the NBA?

Speaker 1 And then I have, then on the other hand, it's like AD and Embiid. Embiid, it came out today.

Speaker 1 The Sixers announced he's going to miss the next game with right knee soreness, which is the opposite knee that he's had issues with.

Speaker 1 So like, if I'm the Sixers, do I even need to think about the AD and Bi'd fit? Or is it more of like

Speaker 1 one relieves the other? And if they both play together for an extended period of time that's just gravy and it's something we're happy to figure out like it's it's it's you got me

Speaker 2 the basketball stuff of it is interesting because if you start to think about um the nashing if you talk to philly fans they're just kind of dreading this reset back to the slow slow it down thing that's probably going to be you know intensify when p when an fpg comes back and is himself it's like well this is a way to

Speaker 2 you know, basketball-wise, AD, I don't think is going to eat into that. You can imagine them if he can catch lobs.
You know, you imagine them playing fast.

Speaker 2 Granted, we were just making the argument that the Miami's playing fast wouldn't suit AD. I don't know.
I just thought it was

Speaker 2 interesting. I thought it was interesting.

Speaker 1 The one that fell through for me when I looked into it was Indiana.

Speaker 2 I thought about it.

Speaker 1 Can we still take the gap year? Maybe, you know, and then

Speaker 1 we get a high pick.

Speaker 1 AD is the answer to our center who replaces Miles Turner's question. We get Tyrese Halliburton back.
We're like right back to being an awesome team. The math, it has to be like a six for one trade.

Speaker 1 And it's just, then you have three gargantuan salaries. That doesn't work.

Speaker 2 And you're eating into too much of your. Granted, Halliburton kind of changes people's values.

Speaker 2 He's one of those guys who, the way he plays, are we, would we be overthinking it, thinking that the guys that they succeeded with in the playoffs, like that they can't do it any other way?

Speaker 2 I just, when I was adding it up, I was like, man, that's really eating into the personality of the team. It's like, I wouldn't want to get rid of Nimhard.
I wouldn't want want to get rid of Toppin.

Speaker 2 But it'd be kind of a bet on Halliburton affecting whatever personnel they bring in that they could even just replicate that, right?

Speaker 1 All right, that's enough, Anthony Davis. We're not even touching Kyrie.

Speaker 1 As we conclude, because I know you got to go,

Speaker 1 as we zoom out and look at the path from

Speaker 1 the step back over Gobert in game two of the conference finals,

Speaker 1 the beer incident, the PJ Washington trade, the Gafford trade, a finals run that felt pretty real, a start to last season that when they were healthy felt pretty real.

Speaker 1 And now this wreckage of a team, lucky enough to have Cooper flag on it. Do you have any bigger picture thoughts or concluding thoughts or whatever to just...

Speaker 1 I mean, are we even happy for Mavericks fans who get to cheer for this for a bit and then have to hope that their team can climb out of this? You know?

Speaker 2 I mean, it's still going to hurt. I mean, maybe the anger might subside a little bit.
Probably not.

Speaker 2 I mean, it just, they don't have to think about booing Nico every single game now, and they can at least or they can take the first step towards towards something new because Cooper is exciting.

Speaker 2 It's fun to watch them kind of be exciting about it, be excited about Cooper. And I do think that he's, I'm not worried at all.

Speaker 2 I mean, just watching him bullying mismatches and getting in the paint, he obviously is going to start to figure out.

Speaker 2 And once their spatial stuff gets better and they start to build around him, I think his decision making will grow. I think he's, I still think he's a superstar.
So,

Speaker 2 yeah, I mean, I don't think there is any feel better takeaway from this, is there? I mean, I think they would have to start winning again for this really, really to start going away.

Speaker 1 What a bizarre situation that

Speaker 1 a superstar on the Los Angeles Lakers,

Speaker 1 the most envied and sometimes hated team among other fan bases in the NBA,

Speaker 1 every bit of success he has,

Speaker 1 even almost at the expense of the Mavericks, is going to be cheered forever by the Mavericks fans. A Laker is going to be a hero in Dallas for as long as he plays, like forever.
It's crazy.

Speaker 2 It's unprecedented. I can't really think of anything else like it.

Speaker 1 Jay Kyle, man, thank you for scrambling this podcast for us. You're the best.
Thank you to Jonathan, Jesse, and Mike on production.

Speaker 1 We are live in Minneapolis tomorrow night at First Avenue, apparently a famous venue. Prince has done stuff there.

Speaker 1 Now it's going to be Prince and me, among some other people. It's going to be a lot of fun.
Wolves fans have come out for it. We got some special guests.

Speaker 1 And who knows what else will happen in the NBA? J. Kyle, man, thank you, sir.

Speaker 2 Thanks for having me.

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