Zach’s Random Questions One Week Into the NBA Season, With Kirk Goldsberry

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Speaker 1 All right, coming up on a loaded Monday edition of the Zach Lowe Show, we have been binging NBA games for four or five days now. First impressions, overreactions.

Speaker 1 I've got Kirk Goldsbury of the Ringer to come on. We're going to bounce around.
Zach's random questions after a few days of NBA binge watching early in this season. I got about 10 random questions.

Speaker 1 How good is Wemby already? How close is he to being the best player of the league? Is Rookie of the Year a little more open than we thought? Maybe, maybe not. What team should be worried?

Speaker 1 Are the Bulls good?

Speaker 1 Who's sadder to watch so far? The Pacers or the Celtics among the gap year teams? We got a lot of big picture questions like that. The leap, we got a leap category,

Speaker 1 second tier, kind of all-star types. Looking like they're making a leap up to towards first tier.
Which of those leaps is the most significant around the league?

Speaker 1 Kurt Goldsbury, we're going to bounce around all of that, everything that's going on early in the NBA season. It's been a fun start to the season.
We got a bunch of games tonight, too, to talk about.

Speaker 1 And then maybe a little bit more as we've had 72 hours or so to reflect on the Terry Rogere, Chauncey Billups, two separate indictments, separate and mostly unrelated.

Speaker 1 One about betting on NBA games, mostly linked to Terry Rogier, allegedly, and one involving allegedly rigged poker games that Chauncey Billops allegedly participated in in some way.

Speaker 1 With, you know, we'll see about that. A little bit more about that.
It's a busy time in the NBA. I would really just like to talk about basketball, though.
Boy, oh, boy.

Speaker 1 Okay, all that coming up on the Zach Low Show.

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Speaker 1 Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. The NBA season is, I don't know, four or five days old.
I've been binging, binge watching between reading indictments. I've been watching binge-watching NBA games.

Speaker 1 I've seen every team at least once all the way through, a lot of teams twice, a few teams three times, because you got to to watch every Victor Wembanyama game. It's getting a little ridiculous.

Speaker 1 I got a lot of Zach's random questions, big questions, overreactions, hyper overreactions. I'm stoked to talk to Kurt Goldsbury this morning.
How are you doing, sir?

Speaker 2 I'm great. Same vibes.
A little World Series, a little football, but... A lot of NBA basketball in the last few days.
It's been great to have the league back.

Speaker 2 Some breakout performances, some question marks. I can't wait to talk to you today, Zach.

Speaker 1 Shout out

Speaker 1 my guy, my guy, Francisco Lindor, had elbow surgery. Get well.
Hope it's going great, Francisco Lindor.

Speaker 1 My daughter, who had elbow surgery two years ago, very, very feels very close, even closer than she was before to Francisco Lindor.

Speaker 1 Shout out to Donovan Mitchell, who was in New York for several days last week for the Cavs to play the Knicks and the Nets. Soft commitment to coming on Mets Corner.
So we'll see what happens.

Speaker 1 Donovan Mitchell,

Speaker 1 lifelong Mets fan. Okay, Zach's big questions after, when did the season start Tuesday? So six days or a week into the season.
I don't know. I've lost track of time already.

Speaker 1 Are you ready? We're just going to hit you. Zach's random questions.

Speaker 2 I am ready. I told you, give me any order you want.
And my duty to you, Zach, is to be prepared on all of these topics.

Speaker 1 Preparedness like a Boy Scout. Were you a Boy Scout or a Cub Scout?

Speaker 2 No, I was not. I don't know if you could tell, but no.

Speaker 1 I was a Cub Scout for two years.

Speaker 1 Didn't take. Didn't like the uniforms.
Didn't like the little bandanas you had to wear. My parents would fall asleep in the

Speaker 1 den meetings or their dens.

Speaker 1 I'm not an outdoorsman. I don't aspire.
I don't aspire. I don't have any aspiration to be an outdoorsman.

Speaker 2 Good pun.

Speaker 2 Good topical pun there. But you did get your discipline in the swimming pool.
I think that's an important part of your saga, right?

Speaker 2 There were a lot of early mornings for you and a lot of discipline you learned in the swimming pool.

Speaker 1 I did, and I'm back.

Speaker 1 And let me tell you, when I go swimming at the indoor pool in Stanford, Connecticut at the gym that I belong to at 11 in the morning, and it's me and a bunch of old guys, I'm like fucking Michael Phelps in there.

Speaker 1 I feel so fast. It's incredible.
By the way, speaking of aspiration, I was watching the Clippers game last night

Speaker 1 and listening to the announcers. And like, aspire is a word that you would maybe say just randomly.

Speaker 1 And I wonder if they've like trained their brains to just say, you know, James Harden aspiring to know, I mean, hoping to make his 15th all-star team. Okay, Zach's question number one.

Speaker 1 I told you these are going to be crazy questions.

Speaker 1 How close is Victor Wembanyama to being the best player in the NBA already, Kurt Goldsberry?

Speaker 2 First of all, I'm very excited. And for your audience, I'm very biased on this question, but a lot closer, a lot closer, Zach Lowe, than

Speaker 2 I think anybody anticipated. Shout out to anybody who was like, he's going to win the MVP this year two weeks ago.

Speaker 1 I wasn't one of those people, but holy moly,

Speaker 2 the opening night I was in Los Angeles for Ringer Core Week, and we watched it in the theater together. That performance against Anthony Davis and the Mavericks to me signaled that this dude is ready.

Speaker 2 He is much closer to being the best player in the world than I anticipated at the beginning of year three. I have some stats to back it up, but Verzak,

Speaker 2 what is your answer to this question?

Speaker 1 Well, so here's my answer.

Speaker 1 I was one of the people saying at the very least he's going to be in the inside of the MVP conversation.

Speaker 1 Ringer 100, do you do Ringer 100?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 Wemby finished sixth in a Ringer 100. And when I went on Bill's pod a couple weeks ago, one of the questions we were going to bat around, and I don't think we got to it, was he framed it this way.

Speaker 1 If you think Wemby is going to be in the top five NBA players by the end of the season, who do you bump out of the presumptive top five? Now, his presumptive number five player was Anthony Edwards.

Speaker 1 And I was like, yo, I submitted my ringer top 100 and I already have Victor Wembanyama fifth. And behind the sort of holy quartet of Jokic, Giannis, Luca, SGA, and whatever order you want to put.

Speaker 1 Hard to crack that top four after 100 games. But look, I mean, do you want to do the stats? Because the stats are like, it's been three games and they play the Raptors tonight.

Speaker 1 So just, you know, grains of salt. But do you want to do some stats? What stats you got?

Speaker 2 I got a couple stats. I think,

Speaker 2 which one do I want to start with? You know, he's the first player in NBA history to record 100 points and 15-plus blocks through a team's first three games. The Spurs are first in net rating.

Speaker 2 And I think there's two that really jump out to me. If he was a team, he would rank seventh in the league in dunks right now.

Speaker 2 And if he was a team, I think he would rank sixth in blocks. So he has 18 blocks.
I think only six or seven teams have more than that, and he's dunking the ball.

Speaker 2 And the thing that everybody has said, from you to me to anybody who covers the NBA, is this dude has to get his shot diet right.

Speaker 2 Okay, this was the most cliche Wimby take in the universe coming into this season. And boy, oh boy, his average shot distance has gone from 18 feet to 11 feet.
He's living in the paint.

Speaker 2 He's dunking on Anthony Davis. He has stopped taking the fade away.
All of that to say he could get to 30 points a game in an efficient way with all these dunks and layups, a few threes sprinkled in.

Speaker 2 But man, it's the change on offense, Zach. It's the change in improvement on offense that is faster than I expected.
It's happening in real time at the beginning of year three for him.

Speaker 1 I'm just going to read you some more basic stats than that, Kurt Cozier, because as middle schoolers refer to me, local middle schoolers have called me basic many times. Shout out Mia.

Speaker 1 Thanks a lot, Mia. You make me feel bad about myself.
Basic dad.

Speaker 1 33 points, 13 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 1.7 steals, 6 blocks per game. Okay.

Speaker 1 57% from the floor, 36% on threes, 61% on twos. You made already the point about shot that

Speaker 1 handles much tighter. Blake Griffin and I talked about that last week.
The pitter pat. The pitter pat.

Speaker 1 Player efficiency rating. You might know if you're an NBA historian that anything over 30 is a very rare achievement.

Speaker 1 It's only happened in like 27, 30, something like that, 25, 30 NBA seasons individually. 43 for Victor Wembanyama after three games.

Speaker 1 Now, I mentioned grains of salt. The three wins have come at Dallas, at New Orleans, home to Brooklyn, three teams that I think are likely lottery bound.
We'll talk about the Mavs later. Fair.

Speaker 1 That said, they're still missing Darren Fox, Kelly Linick, Jeremy Sohan.

Speaker 1 Guys who at least the Fox is going to start. The other two are going to be in the rotation in some way.
7-0 on the table for the Spurs, by the way.

Speaker 1 Their next four versus Toronto, versus Miami, at Phoenix, at the the Lakers without Luca and LeBron, and then they play Houston.

Speaker 1 Could be off to a good start, a great start. And by the way, the bigger zoom out here is

Speaker 1 Blake Griffin and I ranked our top six, predicted our top six in the West after two games in the two days in the NBA season.

Speaker 1 And I think

Speaker 1 my list at that time was one OKC, two Denver, three Warriors, four Wolves, five Rockets, six Clippers. And I mentioned, like, I'm about a week away from just vaulting the Spurs in there over somebody.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 we didn't get to the Lakers who are lurking there. Memphis is always going to be lurking there.
And then I think there's a barrier, and then we go down from there.

Speaker 1 But any team that you, I think Oklahoma City and Denver are going to end up alone at the top. Oklahoma City alone, then Denver alone.

Speaker 1 Every other team from Golden State down to the Lakers Grizzlies has got to be absolutely crapping their pants at this because the Spurs Spurs are coming for a top six seed right now, and

Speaker 1 at least to fight for it. And the argument for that,

Speaker 1 as it was before the season, is that this dude is just so goddamn good that you can nitpick the flaws, you know, young guards, shaky shooting, whatever.

Speaker 1 He is going to erase a lot of those flaws like he erases the entire paint on defense. And by the way, the defense,

Speaker 1 it's just so qualitatively better. It's not just the shot blocks that come from nowhere.
It's not just the double jump blocks, triple jump blocks. It's he's got a sense now of I own all of this.

Speaker 1 So when ball handlers even approach the paint, you start to see him understand

Speaker 1 I can cover two on the pick and roll real easily without overcommitting in either direction.

Speaker 1 And I can scare the bejesus out of you, ball handler, by just stunting at you, stunting at you a little bit. You're going to pick up your dribble.

Speaker 1 You're going to throw a lob pass, and I'm going to be ready to intercept. He is like a Jedi recognizing his powers on defense in a way that is just so all-encompassing.
The whole thing is terrifying.

Speaker 1 Now,

Speaker 1 is he close to being the best player in the league? Yeah, but he's played 100 and whatever games.

Speaker 1 Like Jokic, SGA, like you got to play a couple seasons before you really vault past those guys, but he's going to make first team all NBA if he keeps playing like this, and he's going to make the Ringer 100.

Speaker 1 a much more complicated exercise than it was

Speaker 1 two months ago.

Speaker 2 And for those who value interior defense, like he is leaps and bounds ahead of the next most impactful thing.

Speaker 2 And a player in this category, the Spurs are allowing 29 points in the paint per 100 when he's on the floor, which is insane, Zach. And that goes up to 51 as soon as he goes out.

Speaker 2 And as great as the stats are, I wanted to ask you about this because the eye test is somehow even more impressive. And I watched the Pelicans game.

Speaker 2 I hadn't been that excited for a Spurs broadcast because I was excited for the Mavs game, but the Mavs game sort sort of

Speaker 2 intensified my Spurs interest by magnitude. So, game two is in New Orleans, right?

Speaker 2 And Zion, you could tell right away, wants to test this guy. Zion, who also looks pretty fit, which is exciting for us, but you could tell that Zion Williamson was about to go get it.

Speaker 2 And the first play of the game, he did. And the highlight went viral on Twitter.
If you were just on Twitter that night, you were seeing, oh my God, Zion just postered and was okay. It was nice.

Speaker 2 Wemby was slow on a rotation. And Zion got him.
And Zion's one of the best pain scorers in the world.

Speaker 2 Then Victor blocks him either three or four times in the next 13 minutes, depending on if you are on Spurs Reddit and going through the Zabruder film.

Speaker 2 He had four blocks in the next 13 minutes or three, according to the official scorers.

Speaker 2 But they were this category, Zach Lowe, that our friends at ESPN are calling dad blocks, which is the backyard hoop.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Like Zion Williamson learned the hard way.
Zion, of all people, learns the hard way.

Speaker 1 You can't go at this guy.

Speaker 2 And it was, to me, just this jaw-dropping eye test moment where, holy crap, this is a different level of rim protector than anybody else in the NBA.

Speaker 2 And kudos to Victor, because people around the team are saying he's so much stronger than he was last year. His lower body, especially, is strong.

Speaker 2 It gives him this confidence to be that guy in the face of somebody like Zion. But the eye test, Zach, the eye test is crazy, too.

Speaker 1 So that game,

Speaker 1 you want to have a fun little

Speaker 1 moment. About 3-10 left to go in the fourth quarter.

Speaker 1 Close game. Right.
Zion and Derek Queen run a two-man game, pick and roll. Zion's the ball handler, Queen's the screener.
The defenders involved are Victor Wembanyama and Luke Cornette.

Speaker 1 Giant pairing that's working pretty well so far. Yep.

Speaker 1 Both of them kind of go with Zion. They don't quite trap him, but they sort of string him out to to the side.
Derek Queen is wide ass open under the rim.

Speaker 1 I mean, you will not find a player this wide open under the rim. And for like three straight seconds, he's wide open.
Nobody is near him. He's calling for the ball with his hands up.

Speaker 1 Zion sees him, and Zion is like, I'm sorry, dude. Like, there's just too many freaking arms here.
Like, this is, this is like an elementary school pass.

Speaker 1 Like, an elementary school defense is completely forgotten about you. And I can't make it because there's just too much arms here.
And the possession died out after that. And just incredible stuff.

Speaker 1 And by the way,

Speaker 1 shout out. I would like while we're here.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I watched the Bucs game against the Cavs yesterday and against the Raptors on Friday.

Speaker 1 I mean, Giannis

Speaker 1 wants to table this entire discussion.

Speaker 1 36 a game. 16 rebounds.
He leads the league in rebounding rate. He's averaging almost five offensive rebounds a game.
He's never averaged three in a season.

Speaker 1 Seven assists, shooting 68% from the floor and doing

Speaker 1 everything for the Bucs. Now, KPJ has missed the last couple games.
Kuzma was out last night against Cleveland, so whatever.

Speaker 1 I mean, you take that for, maybe it means something, maybe it means nothing.

Speaker 1 And I honestly, I think his passing has leveled up again. He threw a...
behind-the-back no-look pass to the corner on the as the screener in a pick and roll last night against Cleveland.

Speaker 1 Hit, I can't remember who it was, Torian Prince maybe,

Speaker 1 in the shooting pocket. And it was the kind of pass you can only throw if you've mapped the floor ahead of time before you've even gotten the ball.

Speaker 1 And he's throwing more of those anticipatory, I'm one step ahead of the game kind of passes.

Speaker 1 And yet my takeaway from the Bucs two and one start and how incredible Giannis has been, I'm just worried that there's too much on his plate.

Speaker 1 And can he, and I know some people within the Cavs were asking this among themselves like after last night's game can he possibly keep up he's playing his defense is really good super engaged super active the rebounding i mentioned can he actually do this for forget 82 65 or 70 or is some fatigue an injury or something going to come because it's it's he's doing everything for the team

Speaker 2 yeah you mentioned those top four guys it's tough to crack for wemby right i don't think any of them have done anything to change our minds the early part of the season with the exception of Luca maybe getting hurt here.

Speaker 2 But Giannis, more than any of those guys, I think, is leveled up

Speaker 2 and is playing at an MVP level. And this is what he has to do to get the Bucs to where they want to go as a team.
He has to be prime shack,

Speaker 2 essentially, to get them there. And he's playing like it on the glass, in the paint, as a leader.

Speaker 2 You know, and he looks like the best player in the world at times. And it's one of those moments where you you remember that he scored 50 points in a closeout game in the NBA Finals not that long ago.

Speaker 2 And he looked like the best player in the world not that long ago.

Speaker 2 But yeah, ultimately, I think he has to do this in part because the roster around him is diminished. And he doesn't have the kind of support that you'd want to have.

Speaker 2 You mentioned Luke Cornette.

Speaker 2 And the last thing I was going to say on the Spurs is like, they have to be happy with how Dylan Harper has looked and how Steph Castle Castle has looked, how Luke Cornett has looked.

Speaker 2 They look like a much deeper team. You can't say that about Giannis' team.
You can't say that about the Milwaukee Bucks. They haven't surrounded him with all these complimentary pieces.

Speaker 1 No, and

Speaker 1 look, the bottom line of Victor is we just got,

Speaker 1 we don't have to see this over a full season because whatever has happened through three games, if we do see it throughout the full season, he will be the best player in the NBA.

Speaker 1 We have to see something like this over a full season before you vault him even tied with a Jokic or an SGA or a Giannis who has done this over and over and over at a historic rate.

Speaker 1 But that's the conference. That's where he's going to be.
He's a top five player at minimum right now for the San Antonio Spurs.

Speaker 1 All right, question number two. You ready? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Which of these,

Speaker 1 I call them sort of second-tier stars making a potential leap is the most significant to Kirk Goldsbury.

Speaker 1 And I'm going to give you a list of nominees, but I also gave you the freedom to pick your own person if you don't like my list. Okay, you ready for my list?

Speaker 2 I like it.

Speaker 1 Austin Reeves, 34 a game after scoring 51 and coming in assist shy of a triple-double against the Kings last night for the Lakers without LeBron and Luca and shooting the Bejizas out of it in a free agency year.

Speaker 1 Aaron Gordon.

Speaker 1 Put up a 50 burger in his first game of the season, 11 of 17 on threes through two games, sustaining what he did last year when all of a sudden he was like, oh, I guess Aaron Gordon's just a knockdown three-point shooter in all circumstances.

Speaker 1 Jamal Murray, this is not a leap. This is a, hey, peak Jamal Murray has decided to join the party when the party starts instead of waiting three months to do it.
24 a game, 7.5 assists, 60% on twos.

Speaker 1 Looks snappy. Just looks a little snappy.

Speaker 1 Chet Holmgren,

Speaker 1 25 and 10, 7.5 free throws a game, 56% from the field, 42% on threes. Alper and Shengun has only played two games, one great one, one not so good one, 28, 9, and 7, 41% from the field, 46% on twos.

Speaker 2 Don't love that.

Speaker 1 Tyrese Maxi also has only played two games. They play again tonight, I'm assuming.
34 a game, 7.5 assists. Has made 9 million three-pointers.
Leads the league in threes per game.

Speaker 1 Only shooting 35% on twos. And my guy,

Speaker 1 my guy, never gave up. Never mocked him, mocked him a little bit maybe.

Speaker 1 Lamello Ball, 28, 10, and 8 on 48% shooting, 42% from three for the number one offense in the NBA through three games against all so-so teams.

Speaker 1 Philadelphia, well, not even so-so, Washington, Brooklyn, Brooklyn. But I'm taking what I can get.

Speaker 1 Do you want to pick one of those or do you have your own Goldsbury coming through?

Speaker 1 Like my favorite moment in game shows was on Family Feud when the family that was trying to steal all the family members would send up their suggestions to the patriarch or matriarch or the family and then that guy would go rogue and be right that was always are you going to go rogue like the patriarch elite patriarch of an elite family feud family no i feel like you've named my player and it was again an opening night overreaction temptation which was tyrese maxey and the Philadelphia 76ers.

Speaker 2 And I make this choice in part because of the ecological context of the Eastern Conference and how somebody has to be third or fourth in that conference.

Speaker 1 Oh boy, here we go. Kirk's ready.

Speaker 2 But that said, Tyrese Maxie, dude. Tyrese Maxie,

Speaker 2 34 points per game. You know, he averaged 26.
All the advanced stuff is great with him. And then he plays with the exact type of energy the Philadelphia 76ers need to adopt.

Speaker 2 in this sort of that they have a chance with Vijay Edgecombe, who I'm sure we'll talk about here in a minute, but they have a chance to have a personality transplant at the top of that roster.

Speaker 2 If they can somehow get Tyrese Maxie to be the face of that organization with that big smile of his and that energy that I think is really contagious, if he can take over Nick Nurse's locker room as a leader and Vijay's going to bring what it looks like Vijay might bring, I think there's some significance to the Tyrese Maxi leap.

Speaker 2 in the context of a weaker Eastern Conference that could change how we think about that whole side of the league.

Speaker 2 I'm not saying they're at the Knicks or the Cavs level, but knocking on that door, somebody's got to get up there. And I think Tyrese is most interesting to me.

Speaker 2 My second choice was Austin Reeves, who had the game of his life last night and scored 50 points and got to the free throw line at such a high rate.

Speaker 2 Even DeMar DeRosen was frustrated by the end of the press conference. He had thrown up his hands when he'd seen that Austin Reeves had 22 free throws, 24 free throws.

Speaker 1 It was a lot. It started with a two, whatever it was.

Speaker 2 It started with a two. But yeah, it was of a lot.
But,

Speaker 2 you know, that was my second one because I think he's going to put up some incredible numbers in the absence of Luca and LeBron. But ultimately, Zach,

Speaker 2 I want to pick Tyrese Maxi.

Speaker 2 But I'm curious if that's where you landed.

Speaker 1 Maxie is... just becoming a really sophisticated offensive player across the board.
I mean, he's only shooting 35% on twos. That'll flip, as will the 61% that he's shooting on threes.
But he's just,

Speaker 1 you just see it when a guy has control of the offense and the poise and the ease of just knowing, yes, it's my show, and I know what to do, and I know what place to call, and I know time and score, and all that.

Speaker 1 And yeah, Joel is still Joel, and they're going to feed him at the post and at the nail and all that. But Tyrese Maxi has it, whatever it is.

Speaker 1 The Reeves one is significant only because I think what it portends for his future and the Lakers' future.

Speaker 1 if he's not going to average 34 a game, obviously, but if we come through the end of this season, it's like, all right, this guy's a legit 25 and seven kind of player who shoots the ball well from three, and his three has been up and down a little bit, but solid enough.

Speaker 1 Like,

Speaker 1 Luca plus Reeves, that's a good building block for the Lakers going forward. That's that's the foundation of an elite offense year after year after year.

Speaker 1 And other than that, maybe we just clear the decks in the summer of 2027 when everyone's a free agent, all the big names for summer of 2026, And just also what it means for LeBron. Like,

Speaker 1 I think they can confidently go forward with those two as the foundation of the offense and rework the franchise around them if they want.

Speaker 1 And I think that would increase the chances that LeBron, assuming he's not retiring after this season, would take a one-year somewhere like Cleveland or Dallas or something like that.

Speaker 1 I would say Cleveland would be, if you had to make me bet, like you got to make me bet right now, it would be Cleveland. But it's, it just, you know, I went, however, with Chet,

Speaker 1 just because

Speaker 1 the reason I picked the Thunder to repeat as champions, which no team has done since the Durant Stack the Deck Warriors, was they're just so freaking young that all their guys are going to be on the upswing.

Speaker 1 And the main guy to point to, like when we, you and I did our most improved player podcast, and I made us divide the candidates into tiers.

Speaker 1 And tier three was star-level player who sometimes gets into this conversation. And my pick was Chet

Speaker 1 because you could just see there's so much more that he's got under the hood offensively, and he's starting to show it. And I think already now, part of it is that J-Dub's been hurt.

Speaker 1 Caruso already got put in the concussion protocol, they've Kaysen Wallace sat a game, so there guys are doing more, but you can see the thunder.

Speaker 1 Hey, Lou Dort, you want to like drive and do spin moves a little bit more? Like, let's see what you can do. Uh, Chet, stretch your wings.

Speaker 1 And I think so, he was he was ultimately my pick, but the Aaron Gordon one is massive. And Lamello,

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 I'm still in. I'm sorry.
I'm still in. I was never out, and I'm still in.
Are you out? I'm out. But

Speaker 2 let me give you some shine on the Chet Holmer case because I do think that might be the right smart guy answer here.

Speaker 2 Because Chet does the non-glamorous defensive stuff at a very high level for that team. He's very important.

Speaker 2 And then there's like this creeping, I can be a 50, 40, 90 player next to SGA and be a very impactful defensive player. I don't think he's ever going to have the sexiest game,

Speaker 2 but that's a huge piece of a championship roster and it's only getting better.

Speaker 2 And that's, again, like Aaron Gordon's a nice pick too, but I just think where he is in his own aging curve suggests we're not going to get that kind of leap sustained throughout this part of this.

Speaker 2 his career, whereas Chet is still getting better. And

Speaker 2 I'll portend, This is what my friend calls NBA puberty, this phase of a young player's career.

Speaker 2 And some of the markers you got to see go up: shooting efficiency, defensive efficiency numbers, and Chet just keeps climbing the ladder. This is such a key stage for him.

Speaker 2 Again, he's a two-way star who could become really one of the best players on a championship team. He already is, but for multiple years.
So I think that's probably the smartest case

Speaker 2 for the ceiling of Chet Holmgren on both ends of the court is high. Now,

Speaker 3 Lamello,

Speaker 2 I'll take the I'm outside here. I'll take it.

Speaker 1 I'll take the league.

Speaker 1 That doesn't make me feel good. I don't want to debate.
I don't want to hashtag debate this, you know.

Speaker 2 He's always been one of the most talented guards in the league, period, right? I think we would agree on this. He's physically gifted.
He sees the game so well.

Speaker 2 Some of his best passes are the best passes you'll see a point guard ever make. It's the stuff between the ears ears that drives me crazy.
I'm sorry, call me old-fashioned. Shout out to Andrew Sharp.

Speaker 2 Call me old-fashioned. I like when guys shoot off of two feet from beyond the three-point line.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 he's just, dude, he's started on third base. Like, he's a great player.
And for me, it's really frustrating because it's the easiest stuff that he...

Speaker 2 He has to master, the shot selection and the defense. The defense actually looked good if you look at the advanced stuff early in his career.

Speaker 2 It's tailed off, but he has the body and the IQ to play great defense, which makes it all that more frustrating that his defensive numbers continue to tail off. So, until I see something,

Speaker 2 I'm not putting him in this category with these other dudes in your list.

Speaker 1 His defense, I think, has been a little better this year, a little sharper in navigating screens. This team is built to be a terrible defense.

Speaker 1 Just across the board, they've got no shot to compete defensively. Look, I'm not going to do my Lamello monologue again for the 17th time.

Speaker 1 I've I've kind of given up on him getting to the rim as often as I would like. It just doesn't seem like it's in his DNA.

Speaker 1 Here's all I want. Okay, I watched them play the Sixers on Friday.
It was someday they played the Sixers.

Speaker 1 He dribbles up the floor on one possession and just takes this goofy ass 20 on the shot clock, nobody under the rim. Contested off the dribble three that misses.

Speaker 1 And you're like, dude, okay, time, score, situation, team chemistry, Like, this is the kind of shot that I know the coaches have talked to you about. It's just not a good shot.

Speaker 1 About three minutes later, he's got the ball almost in the exact same position, right wing, and he's dancing. He's going through the legs, stutter step.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, here, okay, he's going to jack this thing up again. And you could see that he was thinking,

Speaker 1 like, I want to shoot this. And it's, you know, actually, you know, on the first possession, he actually didn't take the shot.

Speaker 1 He rose up to shoot it and realized midair, this isn't going to go well and threw the ball away on a desperation pass. So now he's dancing.
Now he's dancing. And I'm like, he's rising up again.

Speaker 1 He's going to do it again. And you know what he did, Kurt Goldsberry? What did he do?

Speaker 1 Picked up his dribble, threw the ball to Colin Sexton, and ran a two-man game with Colin Sexton that confused the defense.

Speaker 1 Colin Sexton pitched it back to him for an open catch and shoot three that went in the basket. And I was like, see, man, that's all.
Those two, the contrast there, I'm

Speaker 2 perfectly said.

Speaker 1 Big question number three.

Speaker 1 Is Rookie of the Year more open than we thought it was going to be? Overreacting a weekend?

Speaker 2 Yes. Short answer is yes.
And this does not mean that Cooper Flag is no longer the favorite. It means that Cooper Flag is less of a favorite.

Speaker 2 And that doesn't mean that Cooper Flag's been anything but good.

Speaker 2 It means that two or three guys have crashed the party. So I asked our friends at FanDuel for some updates.

Speaker 2 And I think that's very instructive. You can guess who had the biggest move over the last week.

Speaker 2 Valdez in Philadelphia. Vijay Edcom has gone from plus 1,400 just a week ago to plus 210.
And if he's going to score like he did in that first game, dude, he might steal the race.

Speaker 2 I mean, you know, rookie of the year, if somebody's scoring 25, 30 a game, they're going to be a strong contender to win.

Speaker 2 And then the other one, and one of the great moments in NBA podcast history over the last year, Chris Vernon.

Speaker 2 and the guy at Target. Are you familiar with this saga?

Speaker 1 I think so, but

Speaker 1 it's a Cedric Howard one, and Cedric Howard is on my list here.

Speaker 2 Hilarious moment, but also statistically a big mover. The target scout that got Vernon on Cedric Howard way before anybody

Speaker 2 has moved significantly. He started at plus 9,000 all the way to plus 4,000.
So is it an open race? Yes. And also, Dylan Harper looked a lot better than even I thought a Spurs Homer.

Speaker 2 was going to look. So I don't think Cooper has done anything bad.
I think he's been put in a particularly tough position in Dallas.

Speaker 2 But it's because of the other guys, Zach, VJ, Cedric, Dylan Harper, that I think it is, in fact, an open race.

Speaker 1 It's a marathon, not a sprint. It's a long season.
Shouldn't shouldn't get too crazy when the Clippers lose one horrible game in Utah when it was like, did they think it was the preseason?

Speaker 1 Because this is a real game.

Speaker 1 It's going to be Cooper Flags Award to lose because of the opportunity he's going to get to run the offense in lieu of reliable point guard play

Speaker 1 and just how goddamn good he is at everything. I mean, other than reliable three-point shooting, and that's going to be the test for him, and that's how defense is going to test him.

Speaker 1 But he's immensely skilled and can

Speaker 1 fill pretty much any role on either end of the court. But

Speaker 1 he's averaging 17 and 6 on decent shooting.

Speaker 1 It's not like some damaging starter. I think he's been great.
Keyshawn George, by the way, defended the hell out of him and the Wizards win there on Friday. That was whenever that was.

Speaker 1 That was a great game for the Wiz. Cedric Coward up to 19 a game,

Speaker 1 shooting 70%,

Speaker 1 has seven steals and no turnover, or seven assists and no turnovers, averaging almost two steals a game. Just, I'm watching.
I like the way he moves off the ball.

Speaker 1 Like the confidence with which he's stepping into threes. Like in the transition, he's a freight train.

Speaker 1 Like the power dribbles. I'm just watching.
It's interesting. Great situation for him.

Speaker 1 He's also 22.

Speaker 2 Yeah, he also has this older guy advantage, right? He's fully cooked as a player. He's 22 years old.

Speaker 1 But hasn't played much in the last 18 months until now.

Speaker 1 Yeah, good call.

Speaker 2 But that efficiency you're pointing out to, that's been his calling card. That's why the nerds flagged him early on in the draft process.

Speaker 2 It's like, oh, my gosh, this guy might be the most efficient volume scorer, especially inside the arc.

Speaker 2 So I expect him to have some nice numbers in a weird Memphis situation that could go anyway

Speaker 2 we want. But yeah, he's a nice player.
I mean, again,

Speaker 2 that drafting apparatus in Memphis did it again. They found another good player at a position where you don't traditionally find a great player.

Speaker 1 He had a drive against Jairus Walker the other night where he just, I mean, Jairus Walker is not a small dude.

Speaker 1 They're probably about the same size and just bullied him underneath the rim to the point that

Speaker 1 Coward himself got all the way turned around and had to lay the ball in backwards. And it didn't even matter because Jairus Walker was like falling out of bounds.
Vijay Edgecombe, you mentioned,

Speaker 1 a lot of mid-range shots. We'll see how that goes for him.
Love the three-guard lineup with him and Maxie and Grimes. That's plus 16 at 35 minutes.
Dylan Harper, you mentioned averaging 16 a game.

Speaker 1 Boy, it looks like Harper and Castle, again,

Speaker 1 Zach, it's a marathon. It's not a sprint.

Speaker 1 But there's a chance, based on the data we have, that Harper and Castle are a little further along than anticipated, which makes the De'Aaron Fox thing, I would classify, as a good problem to have for San Antonio.

Speaker 1 Awkward potentially in six months, but good right now.

Speaker 2 Good problem to have. And Dylan Harper, fantastic around the rim.
Great instincts around the rim. And I know the Spurs are very excited about him.
They had high expectations.

Speaker 2 Like you said, somehow he exceeded them. Same with Steph Castle.
Nobody had low expectations for year two from this guy. But he looks like a defensive leader.

Speaker 2 He looks like one of the toughest assignments that anybody could draw. Nobody wants to try to score on Steph Castle.
Real culture piece.

Speaker 2 You mentioned earlier, like, the Luke Cornette acquisition. I think the Spurs are really interested in trying to pair Cornette and Wemby together.

Speaker 2 Some of the defensive numbers we're seeing with Cornette on the floor are so much better than the one Spurs fans are accustomed to with, say, Zach Collins in that role.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 things are looking up in San Antonio. We knew they were looking up, but things are looking up faster and maybe more significantly after three games, caveat,

Speaker 2 than we expected in San Antonio.

Speaker 1 I love Castle. I love the spirit that he plays with.
He's absolutely tenacious. He makes winning plays.
He's not selfish.

Speaker 1 He plays unselfishly on both ends of the floor, and he's massively explosive going to the basket.

Speaker 1 Trey Johnson, 17 a game for the Wiz on Elite Shooting. He can flat score, man, and he can score off movement.
He can score against contests. Love watching him play.

Speaker 1 Jeremiah Fears is averaging 15 a game.

Speaker 1 Cyan James, I should have mentioned in my Lamello monologue, has been pretty good. Not in this conversation, just a shout out.

Speaker 1 And Bill Simmons, favorite player, Con Kinippo, 15 a game, 4.5 rebounds, 55% shooting. This is a really fun rookie class across the board.

Speaker 1 Flag is still going to have, there's going to be like two months where Flag averages 28 and 8 and is like, oh, okay. And these other guys fade out a little bit, but it's been a fun start.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Are you ready for another one? Or do you have other thoughts on the rookies?

Speaker 2 Well, it was an electric experience for me in Los Angeles. I watched the first half of the Sixers Celtics game with Chris Ryan, noted Sixers fan.
And that was an electric experience.

Speaker 2 He was very much enjoying Vijay Edgecombe making three after three

Speaker 2 after three.

Speaker 2 And so that was fun. But I think he's crashed it more than anybody.

Speaker 2 I think I'm more excited to watch Vijay Edgecombe over these next few weeks, Zach, than any of the other names, except for my Spurs, who I'm biased about.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I love the way he's played both ends of the floor. He's a willing screener, and they have these little guard guard pick and rolls that are kind of fun.

Speaker 1 And look, one quick click for you.

Speaker 2 I think your listeners want to hear you riff on the state, and I'm putting you on the spot here, on the state of Joelle and Beat early in the season. What have you seen there?

Speaker 1 I mean, he vanished in the second half the other day on his minutes restriction. First game was obviously not good.
Second game, better.

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 it looks like it's just going to be a long, like a long, we're a long way from the Joel Embiid that we grew accustomed to.

Speaker 1 The post demands, like, get me the ball. I got a double team.
They ticked up a bit in the second game I watched against Charlotte, but they're still kind of not there. He's taking a lot of threes.

Speaker 1 Looks like a guy who's trying to rediscover his wind, his game, his physicality, and I'm just going to give it time.

Speaker 1 I mean, I have no faith that he's ever going to remain healthy for an entire season and playoff run, but

Speaker 1 this is why the Sixers were,

Speaker 1 I don't think they ever contemplated for a second trading the third pick in a way that would have gotten them out of the lottery or out of the draft.

Speaker 1 There was, I don't think they contemplated like, we got to make a win now trade around Joel and Paul George.

Speaker 1 The smartest thing they ever did was like, we're just going to pick the guy we think fits Maxi and fits our future timetable because that's what's relevant. We'll see.
Paul George is around.

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Speaker 3 Okay,

Speaker 1 next question. And you could feel free to nominate your own for this one.
Most alarming rotation hole after a week in the NBA.

Speaker 1 I think we have to go with

Speaker 2 the Hawks depth, which was one of your nominees. And I'm sure you've done some work on this.
I love the Hawks. I think we both love Quinn Snyder for coach of the year.

Speaker 2 But man, if Jalen Johnson and Chris Dopps aren't going to be around, if we're going to see a lot of missed games from those two guys, this isn't going to be a very good basketball team.

Speaker 2 And so I think earlier in the first three games, they're one and two, right?

Speaker 2 They have some winnable games this week. And so I'm really laser focused on

Speaker 2 who's cleared to play and when.

Speaker 2 And are we going to get a full season out of Jalen and or

Speaker 2 Christops, let alone Rishoche, who are missing games already? already.

Speaker 2 Because I said earlier, the third spot in the East, fourth spot, those are up for grabs.

Speaker 2 But a thinned out Hawks team, especially up front, is not going to be in contention for that kind of place in the Eastern Conference.

Speaker 2 So I had them slotted in there as a really nice team with one of the deepest rosters in the Eastern Conference. And through three games, they have a thin team with major injury concerns.

Speaker 2 So I have Atlanta.

Speaker 1 It was one of my nominees.

Speaker 1 It was what gave me, it didn't give me pause because it just could not take away from my Hawks' enthusiasm, but it did give me some, it gave the rational side of my brain pause.

Speaker 1 That, you know, their three best bench players are Nikhil Alexander Walker, excellent six-man. Onyaka Okangu, my pick for six-man of the year.
Luke Kennard gets us to eight.

Speaker 1 It's like, okay, I like the idea of Luke Kennard. Every team that has him likes the idea of Luke Kennard.
And then the idea of Luke Kennard gets played off the floor when the the games really matter.

Speaker 1 And then after that,

Speaker 1 like, this is the benef now, it's been exacerbated because Reese, Jalen Johnson, and Porzingis all missed their last game against the Thunder.

Speaker 1 These are the guys that got bench minutes for them in that game. This is the entire bench.
Jacob Toppin, Asa Newell.

Speaker 1 Now, if there's a fun subplot from that game, he made three threes and had 12 points. TBD.

Speaker 1 Kafali Dante, Luke Kennard, Keaton Wallace, who I like as a hustle guy, Caleb Houston, and Vit Crechy, who I like as like a 10th-11th guy. That's the whole bench.

Speaker 1 Just saying. My other nominees, you want to hear some other nominees?

Speaker 2 Yeah, you had some good ones you sent over.

Speaker 1 Well, we have point guard questions in a number of places, including Houston and Dallas, which you will get to.

Speaker 1 Orlando's bench, which was my worry spot for them,

Speaker 1 especially if Isaac is just going to be a complete zero for them. But I think they'll ultimately have enough between Tyus Jones.

Speaker 1 and Anthony Black, if Mo Wagner comes back at any point during the season, Jason Richardson, Jed Howard, we'll see who wins those minutes. I think they probably have enough there.

Speaker 1 I think they might need, when the games really matter, to have two out of Bain, Wagner, and Bancaro on the floor

Speaker 1 almost all the time, but the games don't matter that much yet.

Speaker 1 Portland Centers is one that's on my list.

Speaker 1 They're basically just playing one. Donovan Klingen.
Nine of Donovan Klingen's 17 field goal attempts this year have been threes.

Speaker 1 He just kind of looks like, I'm not sure what function he has out there other than protecting the rim. Jan Hansen plays five minutes in the first half and doesn't play in the second half.

Speaker 1 By the way, one thing I like about him, keeps his uniform, like no warm-ups. He's just in full, just uniform only on the bench, just to remind the coach, like, I'm here, Tiago.

Speaker 1 Like, I'm ready to go in anytime.

Speaker 1 And they're playing these like five wings.

Speaker 1 I, you know, I like some of the players on a team and they don't have Scoot.

Speaker 1 A little worried about Shaden Sharp's start.

Speaker 1 Ultimately, I am going to choose the Minnesota Timberwolves point guard situation. Mike Connolly getting benched and playing 46 minutes through three games and elevating Dante DiVincenzo, fine.

Speaker 1 It's a move that I sort of hinted at could be possible before the season. I was surprised it happened right away.
I'm surprised how little Mike Conley has been used.

Speaker 1 He got used more yesterday because Anthony Edwards hurt his hamstring.

Speaker 1 Hopefully that's nothing.

Speaker 1 They're not even playing Dillingham. They're playing Bones Highland over Dillingham.
I don't trust Bones Highland as far as I can throw him in a big game.

Speaker 1 Whatever. Tim Connolly likes him.
I guess I should defer to Tim Connolly. Jalen Clark's a good defender.
Taron Shannon's been up and down, but

Speaker 1 that feels like a spot that if they're actually serious about getting back to the conference finals and pushing beyond that, what they have there is just not good enough.

Speaker 1 And I don't care how good Anthony Edwards is. He's amazing.
So that's my pick. And I don't even know how they solve it.
It's not like they have a lot of stuff to trade. They can trade.

Speaker 1 They can trade picks that they've already swapped, so they're not going to be good picks. They can trade swap rights and stuff, but I just don't, I don't know.
They're also got salary concerns.

Speaker 1 So that's going to be, because of their status in the league, that's going to be my pick.

Speaker 2 It's a solid pick. And you mentioned Dillingham.
To me,

Speaker 2 that's a glaring issue that you went in on the number eight pick and essentially got him last year.

Speaker 2 And this dude can't even get out there and give you quality minutes in year two at a position where you need him.

Speaker 2 That's bad.

Speaker 2 And I like how you framed it too, because because this is a team that's been knocking on the door of greatness here for a few years.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 2 Mike Conley, we knew this was coming. That's the other thing, there was this, and that's part of the reason you got Dillingham, is you knew you were going to have this issue.

Speaker 2 Uh, and so to me, it's like

Speaker 2 oh, like they need somebody so bad at that spot. Dante DiVincenzo can sort of pretend.
Anthony Edwards, Julius Randall can sort of make plays sometimes, but you don't really want to lean into that.

Speaker 1 The by committee thing is

Speaker 1 okay with them. I just don't think any of those guys are better than B2B plus passers.

Speaker 2 And again, in the context of the Western Conference being so unforgiving, like the same thing that Houston and Dallas struggle with, like, yeah, you need somebody to bring up the floor and initiate a set.

Speaker 2 If you don't have that, you're going to get exposed in these games against Denver and OKC and the Spurs and and the Rockets. All these teams, they will find your flaw.

Speaker 2 And we've already seen it happen a couple of times with teams trying to bring it up against OKC.

Speaker 2 And they're just like, you need somebody to do this, dude, or we're going to expose you and turn you over. So to be the best team in the Western Conference, you need to have a great point guard.

Speaker 2 And Minnesota simply... might not have any point guard.

Speaker 1 You mentioned the pressing imitation, like the full court press Pacers imitation is happening across the league. And it's been interesting to watch it.

Speaker 1 Like Boston yesterday against Detroit was pressing Cade Cunningham with Hugo Gonzalez was pressing him up and down the floor.

Speaker 1 And first of all, Cade Cunningham's averaging about 9,000 turnovers a game and needs to clean it up.

Speaker 1 Second of all,

Speaker 1 Hugo Gonzalez was very annoying to Cade.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 there was one possession where there were a couple of possessions where just he was like, someone else just has to bring it up. And I don't want to do it.
Fine, if you have the personnel.

Speaker 1 The Blazers last night against the Clippers brought Blake Wesley in the game and just told him, just press everywhere all the time. And he started pressing Hardin,

Speaker 1 Dunn, whoever was bringing the ball up the floor, Bogdan, Bogdanovich, Chris Paul, created a couple turnovers and near turnovers to the point that Harden, I think it was Hardin on one position, was like, yo, Derek Jones, can you just dribble the ball up the floor?

Speaker 1 I just can't deal with this shit anymore. And Derrick Jones was like, cool.
I'm Derek Jones Jr. I'm not really a point guard.
And he got picked at midcourt. And I was was like, this is kind of fun.

Speaker 1 I like this.

Speaker 1 Another quick question on my list was: do you like the Heaves rule change where it's a team field goal attempt and not an individual field goal attempt?

Speaker 2 You know, I'm glad you asked me this. I didn't expect to have this question lobbed to me.
It's such a high-profile platform, such as the Zach Lowe show. I hate the Heaves rule.

Speaker 2 Let me go on the record.

Speaker 1 I hate the Heaves rule.

Speaker 2 We've been tracking makes and misses in the NBA for decades the same way. We've learned to contextualize them spatially.

Speaker 2 Is it clutch? Is it a jump shot? Is it contested? We've learned to do this. The one thing we didn't need is somebody coming in and being like, actually, that wasn't a shot.

Speaker 1 That was a shot.

Speaker 2 And the other thing is these three-point shooters, they've been treated with kids' gloves for decades now, too. You can't breathe on them.
You can't look at them the wrong way.

Speaker 2 You give them three free throws. And now we can't even have them have the heave, which is a low percentage shot added to their LinkedIn profile.
We have to delete those.

Speaker 2 I'm fed up with it. As a professor, I think this is great inflation for the three-point shooters of the league.
I don't think they need it. I think they've been given enough here.

Speaker 2 And as an analyst, it's a pain in the ass because now I have to freaking figure, oh, there's team number of three-point attempts, but individuals don't sum to team.

Speaker 1 Why did we do this?

Speaker 2 Who was asking for this?

Speaker 1 We did it because the players were cowards, most of them, and didn't want to hurt their field goal percentage, which is why i ranted about how much i hated the rule because it awarded cowardice and i liked the fact that the players who were willing to shoot heaves percentages be damned were heroes for doing it steph curry and yokic and jr smith and just anyone who's willing just like doesn't give a shit about their percentage which makes me

Speaker 1 which makes it hurt for me to say that the heave rule is working and that everyone is shooting heaves now and i like the heaves and they're fun and so i'm conflicted emotionally by all of this. Okay.

Speaker 1 Big question, whatever number we're on. Are you more worried through three games, Kurt Goldsberry? Three measly games.
About the one and two Orlando Magic or the one and two Dallas Mavericks?

Speaker 1 Orlando.

Speaker 2 Again,

Speaker 2 they are at a key stage of their growth, right? They are at a key stage of their growth. Dallas is in, who knows what Dallas is doing.
But Orlando, we know what they're trying to do.

Speaker 2 Again, with my latter analogy, there's some rungs here. They're clearly trying to get up the Eastern Conference.
They have a plan. They have a young group of dudes.

Speaker 2 But, dude, there are some alarming stats with the Orlando Magic that are not just small sample theater Zach. They track back with their fatal flaw of last year

Speaker 2 that make me very concerned. Let me tell you something about...
this weekend in Orlando. Not only did the Magic lose at home to the Bulls, which I'm sure caught your eye,

Speaker 2 that night they scored 15 points on jump shots. 15 total points on jump shots.
How bad is that? That is the single lowest total in that category since December 2023.

Speaker 2 There have literally been thousands of NBA games at that time. They scored 15 points at home against Chicago on jumpers.
They made six of their 35 jump shots.

Speaker 2 And I think it's especially relevant, and I'm not cherry-picking. This is not small sample size.
This tracks with their biggest weakness last year. It tracks with why they got Desmond Bain.

Speaker 2 Last year, they ranked both last in efficiency and points per shot on jumpers and points per game on jumpers, I should say.

Speaker 2 It's not fair to expect Desmond Bain, who makes about three jump shots per game throughout his career, to come in and fix all of this.

Speaker 2 This team has a clear red flag, and it's more associated with Paulo Bencaro than Desmond Bain.

Speaker 2 They can't shoot.

Speaker 2 They can't shoot.

Speaker 2 They have conference finals expectations,

Speaker 2 and they can't shoot. So I'm very worried about that.

Speaker 1 I don't think they've fixed it.

Speaker 1 I took the over on Bill's pod on 50 and a half wins for the Magic, so I'm quite concerned.

Speaker 1 My answer will nonetheless be the Mavericks, but we'll get there. Okay.

Speaker 1 Bain.

Speaker 1 Shooting slump, fine, I'm not worried about it.

Speaker 1 The idea of Bain was not just his shooting, but his screening off the ball and his movement and his second side ball handling would make their two-point looks easier, would open the paint in ways that were not open to them

Speaker 1 previously because teams would so often switch any two-man game between Franz and Paolo because they're like size. Now you add this other guard who can do this, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1 And Suggs missed the game already, just held out, I think, for precautionary reasons. Those four together, I think, are going to be good.

Speaker 1 Which is why I'm just,

Speaker 1 I think it'll be okay.

Speaker 1 They are 30th in offense after three games. That's last.

Speaker 1 They are 28th in three-point rate, like attempt frequency. That tracks with their past.

Speaker 1 They are 28th in, I'm sorry, they are 30th in three-point shooting, last, shooting 28%,

Speaker 1 also tracks.

Speaker 1 I think all that will come up.

Speaker 1 They're also

Speaker 1 12th in shooting percentage at the rim and 29th on mid-range jumpers. Those are the ones that have to come up.

Speaker 1 Now,

Speaker 1 they're fifth in pace. They're running more.
They want to run great. It's not working.

Speaker 1 I'm just going to say this. If they can't crack a top 20 offense, you know this is my favorite set in the NBA, that they have not even been in the top 20, I think, since 2012.

Speaker 1 Like they've been bottom 10

Speaker 1 every year in a league in which by March, six teams are not even going to be trying to win. They can't even get in the top 20 when they're trying to win most years, a lot of years, not every year.

Speaker 1 If they can't get in the top 20, we just might have to take a break. Just take a break,

Speaker 1 move the team to Lakeland or Tampa or something, because this is not working.

Speaker 1 And Paolo, look, slow start.

Speaker 1 His mid-range attempts are actually down, and his rim attempts are way up, and they missed a lot of bunnies, and they'll make their bunnies.

Speaker 1 But there are just still too many, like, I've been high on Paolo. I've been actually accused by the stats nerds nerds of being too high on Paolo.
And this is why.

Speaker 1 There are still too many possessions where he just kind of walks in to an 18-footer with 15, 14, 12 on the shot clock, not having really accomplished much in terms of running an action.

Speaker 1 And he's just not a good enough shooter for that to be such a big part of their offense. And

Speaker 1 I understand when he gets on a heater, it looks old school. It's awesome, Kobe-esque, bigger Kobe, bigger Jordan, whatever.
He just doesn't get on heaters that often. and he needs to just be better.

Speaker 1 But I'm withholding judgment. I need to see the big four play more.
They're plus 11 in 24 minutes. I like the Silva off the bench.
I mentioned their benches are like a little shaky.

Speaker 1 I'm withholding judgment.

Speaker 2 I'm not.

Speaker 2 I'm going to raise the Kirk Goldsbury red flag over Paulo Bencaro Island here.

Speaker 2 This is such a key moment for him. And I hesitate to admit this, Judge.
I hesitate to admit this.

Speaker 2 It reminds me of Josh Smith sometimes.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 I was not emotionally prepared for that.

Speaker 2 I'm sorry to do this to you. He's made five of his 27 jump shots this year.
And again, I'm not cherry-picking. I love Paolo.

Speaker 2 He's an important person in the future of American basketball for crying out loud. But last season, among the 62 most active jump shooters in the NBA, he ranked 60th in efficiency.

Speaker 2 He has a jump shooting problem, and he's the most active scorer on the team. And sort of that's their issue.

Speaker 2 Some of the more advanced stuff with him is not trending in the right direction at this key stage of his career.

Speaker 2 And this start to this season has just sort of certified or sort of cemented in my head the idea that he might not be getting better at this key phase of his career.

Speaker 2 And so that's why I have the red flag on Vancaro Island.

Speaker 1 First of all, I will say to you what what I said to Bill. Not everything can be an island, okay? Palo Bancaro, Palo Bancaro, is a country that is well populated with lots of people, okay? Wow.

Speaker 2 There's been some sea level rising down in Florida, and now it's an island.

Speaker 1 He asked me something. I don't remember what island went.
I think he said like Giannis Island. No, no.
That's a concept. Greece is Giannis Island.
It's Greece.

Speaker 1 It's Giannis Peninsula.

Speaker 1 What the hell was I talking about? Oh, I think the process will get better

Speaker 1 in ways that make his looks easier, and the ecosystem will work itself out, not to an elite degree, to a good enough, like, okay, we're 17th in offense and fourth in defense, and that's sort of the roadmap for the season.

Speaker 1 If they can't get there,

Speaker 1 I'm going to be disturbed. But I think the ecosystem will work itself out as they get, as they get.

Speaker 1 And just the way he's brought it in the playoffs, I may be over-indexing on that, but he's brought it in the playoffs as an underdog in a way that's like, holy smokes, this guy is a stud.

Speaker 1 Okay, my choice is still Dallas, if only because of this.

Speaker 1 They're one and two, and they're 26 in offense, despite putting in 139 against the Raptors last night.

Speaker 1 And this has been through three games why I took a slight under on them at 41.5 or 40 and a half. I just don't know what the identity of the team on offense is going to be.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they're huge, but I don't know what that really gets you. Is it going to get me a lot of Anthony Davis just floating around shooting 18 footers? Because that's not going to work.

Speaker 1 I think they're going to need a lot of time to sort out their spacing, to sort out how to get sort of quick hitting interior passing going along, how to get Cooper Flack accustomed to being a lead ball handler.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 they're 29th in offensive rebound. I don't even know that's possible.
They're last in shooting percentage at the rim. That will improve because they should be a team that just bludgeons you.

Speaker 1 And they have to be a team that just bludgeons you. You can see them like

Speaker 1 because Gafford's been out, you can see them sort of wondering how much center should we play Anthony Davis?

Speaker 1 We've got a lot of minutes for them now because we really only have lively and Dwight Powell and Dwight Powell's not a guy we really want to play.

Speaker 1 That question gets more complicated when Gafford comes back and you have two legit starting level centers.

Speaker 1 They can lean on the Kyrie absence excuse half the season, most of the season. I don't know when he's going to to come back because D'Lo is going to have one good game every four games.

Speaker 1 And other than that, he's going to infuriate their fan base. That's just what happens.
That's what's happened so far this season.

Speaker 1 And other than that, it's like Flagg and Brandon Williams and Jaden Hardy and a bunch of young guys trying to masquerade as point guards. And it just feels stale to me.
And why it's more worrisome is

Speaker 1 I don't know when Kyrie's coming back. And yeah, he changes everything.
Yeah, that's just a fact.

Speaker 1 Is it going to be too late for him to change the fortunes of the team?

Speaker 1 And if Luca is like 32, 10, and 10 in Los Angeles, and this team is eight games below 500 with a lack of offensive identity, and the supersize thing doesn't look workable,

Speaker 1 it could get ugly there. Like, it's a little too early to go there, but like,

Speaker 1 I test I've not liked what I've seen.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it looks like they lack a clear leader on the floor.

Speaker 2 I was shocked and pleasantly shocked with my Spurs bias to see what I saw in opening night in Dallas where for the first time I think in in his career I saw a player look at Anthony Davis and just take him on and just destroy him over and over again that was very alarming to me you combine that with the fact that Anthony showed up a little heavier than normal

Speaker 2 But this was always going to be an experiment, and I was bullish on it.

Speaker 1 And hand up, I might be wrong.

Speaker 2 I thought they were going to be better than this, and they still might be. I think they deserve some time to let the food cook here.

Speaker 2 They have a really deep front court and figuring out rotations and rosters. Like,

Speaker 2 let's let Jason Kidd figure this out. But this was always going to be sort of a weird modern NBA experiment because I think the front court is as deep as it gets in the league, period.

Speaker 2 But the back court is as questionable as it gets for any team that thinks they're good. Like they have D'Angelo, as you mentioned, an aging.
Clay Thompson, Ryan Nemhard, like

Speaker 1 D'Angelo.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 but it's not a Western Conference backcourt that you would be like, hey, you know, in a world of Jamal Murray and Shea Gilgis Alexander and all these other teams with guards like Stephan Curry and Luka Doncic, it's not one of those teams.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I have been sort of surprised at their inability to dominate inside, starting with that Wemby game.

Speaker 2 But particularly, I thought those indicators you mentioned, you did a good job of pulling them out.

Speaker 2 Those are the exact things I thought they'd be good at, rebounding, dominating the paint, and they just haven't been

Speaker 1 so I'm a little concerned I ultimately went with Orlando in part because the bar for Dallas is a little bit lower in their conference but yeah it is a red flag for me I you know the bar they're gonna be good at putting the bar wherever is convenient for them because when they made the Luca trade They publicly went out and said, we have this two or three or four, like our window is pretty short.

Speaker 1 And I've said many times, one of the risks you run when you shorten your window on purpose for whatever reason is you become very susceptible to one injury undoing that. And that is what has happened.

Speaker 1 And so now they can move the bar down and say, well, this is kind of a gap year for us. You know, we'll just see when Kyrie comes back, where we are.

Speaker 1 I don't think it was intended to be a gap year, even with Kyrie being out. I think they had high expectations for this team.
And it's not like I had low expectations.

Speaker 1 If people go back and listen to Bills over Underpod, like I was that, I think I called it the toughest choice I had, 40 and a half or 41 and a half.

Speaker 1 And I think of them as like a 38 and 44 kind of team. It's more macro.
Like there is a lot of Clay Thompson happening, first of all, but it's more macro. And I'm just, I'm no pun intended flagging it.

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Speaker 1 Okay, rapid fire, two more.

Speaker 1 I'm obligated to do it because I, like many other people, have made a lot of fun of this franchise over the last five years. Are the Bulls maybe good, Kurt Goldsberry?

Speaker 1 2-0 with wins over offensively challenged Detroit and Orlando, holding teams to 21% on threes through those two games. Are the number one defense in the league and number 29 on offense.

Speaker 1 Are the Bulls maybe good?

Speaker 2 That aforementioned Orlando game is doing a lot of work here.

Speaker 2 They faced an Orlando team that

Speaker 2 almost literally shot the lights out because the basketball was hitting the lights, I think, instead of the hoop.

Speaker 2 No, I hate to say it. I like the world when Chicago was good.

Speaker 2 You know, I think.

Speaker 2 You know, if you look at their over-under, it's still at 34.5. That's right where I have them.

Speaker 1 It's up. That's up from where it was.

Speaker 2 I think there's some wins to be had. The NBA plays 1,230 games every season.
Somebody has to win each one of those. I think the Bulls will win 30 to 40 of those.

Speaker 2 I don't think the offense is anywhere near good enough to make noise long term.

Speaker 1 Is there 29th rating informing that conclusion?

Speaker 2 And then when you watch it, you watch these guys. You know, I'm a giddy guy, but beyond that, I don't know where the points and the efficiency is going to come from.

Speaker 2 I actually like their bench, Herder and Patrick Williams, and Io and Jalen Smith. That's a nice bench for Chicago, but no, I don't.

Speaker 2 Do you disagree with that, Zach?

Speaker 1 No, I don't think they're good.

Speaker 1 I think they might be a little better than I thought.

Speaker 1 I mean, I took the over at 32.5, and I was saying, like, that's impressive by Vegas to put it too low because I'm to put it that low because I'm pretty low on that team.

Speaker 1 Kobe White hasn't played at all yet.

Speaker 1 That'll hurt their defense, but help their offense when he comes back.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's huge. That's right.

Speaker 1 You know, they're starting

Speaker 1 other than Vuc at center, and Giddy's big, but he's not a good defender.

Speaker 1 I don't quite know, despite the fact that they're starting a Coro.

Speaker 1 Trey Jones is all right defensively. I don't quite know that this is a really elite defense like this, and it probably isn't.
They are fun to watch.

Speaker 1 They play really hard, and they play really fast, both in the half-court and transition, which is how you have to to play with Giddy because he's not going to have the ball all the time.

Speaker 1 And when he's off the ball, you've got to be a little unpredictable with him to keep the and he's shooting catch and shoot threes confidently and well. The off-the-dribble one, we'll see.

Speaker 1 Herders played well off the bench, setting a lot of screens in the pick and roll. I kind of like that again, unpredictable.
Pat Williams,

Speaker 1 don't do this to me, okay? Don't tease me with like aggressive, confident play.

Speaker 1 Don't do it

Speaker 1 because I've seen it before and I've gotten excited.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 He looked pretty good the other day. Iowa's good.

Speaker 1 You know, we'll see.

Speaker 1 They might be a 500 team. Okay, last one.

Speaker 1 More depressing gap year watch so far, the 0-3 Indiana Pacers or the 0-3 Boston Celtics?

Speaker 2 You know, I liked how you sort of contextualized the MAV situation on sort of a multi-year arc to remind me of what the goals have been there.

Speaker 2 So for me, the answer is Boston because of that, because this is a team that I've sat on the sidelines with you in important moments, it seems like, for years.

Speaker 2 And this is a team that we thought might win multiple championships. And by the way, they still might.

Speaker 2 But it's been pretty hard to watch them struggle so hard in these first few games, in part because

Speaker 2 they've set such a high standard for themselves.

Speaker 2 since Brad and Joe sort of created this culture there.

Speaker 2 Indiana,

Speaker 2 I didn't know they were going to be this bad, but I had pretty low expectations for a no Miles Turner, no Tyrese Halliburton year for them.

Speaker 2 Boston, I thought Derek and Jalen could put something together to be a little bit better than this with Joe Missoula. So I guess I'll say Boston.

Speaker 1 I took the under on both.

Speaker 1 Infuriating Bill,

Speaker 1 I think.

Speaker 1 And am I taking a victory lap? No, Kirk, because I'm not stupid. It's three games.

Speaker 2 You don't get fired.

Speaker 1 No, it's three games. It's three games.
Anything can happen. But the Pacers, I just thought, lost so much of their identity.
And you mentioned Halbert and Turner. They're now, they've been down.

Speaker 1 Nemhart, Matherin, McConnell.

Speaker 1 The rookie point guard Peter got hurt right away. Obi Toppin got hurt last night.
We'll see what his status is. Hopefully, but they're just down too many guys now.

Speaker 1 For me, the answer is Boston. Like, I was watching Boston, Detroit yesterday, and they had a lineup where it was like Derek White.

Speaker 1 They had a brief stretch with both Derrick White and Jalen Brown on the bench, which I don't think will happen very often.

Speaker 1 Derrick White's doing way more stuff on offense than he's done since San Antonio, which was predictable. But it was like a lot of Anthony Simons and just these anonymous big guys.

Speaker 1 We all flagged the front line at the front court at the beginning of this. It's just like, boy, Anthony Simons is doing a lot.
Peyton Pritchard will start hitting shots.

Speaker 1 It's just

Speaker 1 because so much of it was

Speaker 1 A Tatum. And by the way, if this team's not good, Tatum should not come back this year.

Speaker 1 I don't see what the point of it would be, but we'll see.

Speaker 1 It's a long way away from that.

Speaker 1 It was Tatum inflicted and then self slash Apron inflicted. To see Horford fitting in so well with the Warriors, to see Drew Holiday looks like sprightly for the Blazers.

Speaker 1 And Porzingis, obviously, has been sick again and not played.

Speaker 1 but will be good. And just like, this is what this proud championship team, and and they're still proud.
They're playing hard.

Speaker 1 Like, they were annoyed that they couldn't win that game against the Pistons yesterday. Jalen Brown had 41 points and they couldn't win.
Like, this is what I'm going to watch the Celtics.

Speaker 1 They'll be competitive and they still shoot a lot of threes. They play super hard.
They're very well coached by Joe Mazzilla. Like, they're not going to be a 28-win team.
They'll be a decent team.

Speaker 1 But I've been watching them and like, man, this.

Speaker 1 21st in offense, 23rd in defense, 24th in net rating, and it feels like that. And it's like, it's been a long time since it's felt like this for the Celtics.

Speaker 2 You flag the front court, and that's what it was.

Speaker 2 It's the least glamorous part of the game, but they can't rebound. They have the lowest defensive rebounding percentage by a wide margin in the league.

Speaker 2 And if that's going to be an indicator that carries through the whole season, they're not going to win a lot of games. They're going to have a lot of second-chance points.

Speaker 2 Their defense isn't going to be what we're accustomed to seeing.

Speaker 2 But ultimately, I think the sort of loss of both the Celtics and the Pacers is what I'm mourning the most when I watch early league pass games. Both of those teams sort of dropping so significantly

Speaker 2 means the average 7, 7.30 p.m. Eastern tip on league pass is just being taxed.
Like it's it's sort of sad that Tyrese and Jason Tatum aren't out there,

Speaker 2 either one of them. So I would choose the Celtics, but I like the way you framed it.
I'd just say, man, it's kind of a bummer, right? To watch these Eastern Conference.

Speaker 1 I almost am like,

Speaker 1 can they just when are they just gonna just sit there and be like, you know what? Don't waste the tread on your tires this year.

Speaker 3 Um,

Speaker 1 that's obviously fanciful and not a real thing. You know, who tips off at 7 p.m.
East Coast time?

Speaker 2 The Wizards?

Speaker 1 Well, probably them too, but the Charlotte Hornets. Yeah, just saying.

Speaker 1 Okay, I haven't talked to you since the two separate and mostly unrelated

Speaker 1 gambling indictments came out on Friday or Thursday, I think.

Speaker 1 One about

Speaker 1 mostly focused on Terry Rogier allegedly alerting his friends that he would take himself out of a game for the purposes of them then betting the unders on him.

Speaker 1 And one about illegal poker rings in which Chauncey Billips was charged with being a face card to draw victims to rigged games in which they were rigged for those victims to lose.

Speaker 1 Mostly separate, obviously.

Speaker 1 Chauncey, we've both known for quite a long time.

Speaker 1 We'll see. I assume his defense is going to be:

Speaker 1 I didn't know the games were rigged. And yeah,

Speaker 1 I'm used to being paid to do stuff or being a celebrity guest at places. I didn't know what was going on.
Maybe that's true. Maybe it's not.
We'll see.

Speaker 1 What has struck you now that we've had some time to reflect on this stuff?

Speaker 2 What strikes me, and I love coming on the Zach Lowe show because we talk about basketball for a long time and we watch games.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And what strikes me, though, Zach, is 2025 is

Speaker 2 the biggest stories in the NBA are off the court, and they're not good.

Speaker 2 It's either the second apron causing these wave and stretch provisions, it's the aspiration Kawhi Leonard story that we talked about one of the last times I was on your show, and now it's this.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Laser's Clippers last night was like,

Speaker 1 okay,

Speaker 1 scandal.

Speaker 2 But yeah, it's unfortunate that we have these segments and these these conversations. But ultimately, I think it's a crucible moment for the league office and Adam Silver.
And

Speaker 2 it's a very, very big set of circumstances for the NBA to navigate correctly. And we're seeing reports that Adam's being called to testify in front of Congress.

Speaker 2 And gambling

Speaker 2 is

Speaker 2 happening no matter what.

Speaker 2 And getting gambling right is a huge thing for this administration to get right so that the league we love continued, the integrity of the league we love, can continue to be as high as it needs to be for us to love it as much as we do.

Speaker 1 The Rozier thing has left a lot of interesting questions in its wake.

Speaker 1 Let's just be clear on this.

Speaker 1 The NBA cleared him. They got his phone.
They looked at it. They cleared him.

Speaker 1 Now he's charged with this. And I reread the indictment over the weekend.

Speaker 1 And this is the key sentence that's doing a lot of the work for the government in its case.

Speaker 1 Prior to the Hornets' March 23rd, 2023 game, Roger informed the defendant De Niro Laster, who's one of his friends, that Rogier was going to prematurely remove himself from the game in the first quarter due to a supposed injury and not return to play further.

Speaker 1 Supposed injury is strong, and I don't believe proven it anywhere, by the way.

Speaker 1 Rozier provided, this is the key. Rozier provided this information to Laster for the purpose of enabling Laster to place wagers based on this information.

Speaker 1 That's the key is

Speaker 1 guys, I said this on

Speaker 1 Thursday.

Speaker 1 You cannot possibly police players from talking to their friends, their friends around the league, their friends in life about, yeah, man, fucking coach is going to sit me tonight or, you know, blah, blah, blah, out, whatever.

Speaker 1 And what happens to that information once they share it with somebody is out of their control. If you share it with someone for the express purposes of gambling on it, that's a different thing.

Speaker 1 And I think the players union and probably the league would look at this indictment, are looking at this indictment, and say, I don't know that the government's proven that Terry Rogier did that.

Speaker 1 Maybe they have, maybe they haven't. And I think the government would say, well, we have this thing of them counting money a few days after the bet.
That's proof.

Speaker 1 And I think the players' union for sure would be like, well, okay, like if the league just used that as proof, they would grieve it.

Speaker 1 And that's the other thing that I wanted to, and this will all wash out. Like,

Speaker 1 one way or another, two things are true. Number one, the sports books caught all this right away, the aberrational activity.
Number two,

Speaker 1 if that set of circumstances is proven, whoever the player is, we saw with Jonathan Porter, you are going to be banned for life.

Speaker 1 Everybody in the league is going to know, from players to trainers to equipment managers to everyone who has access to this information, that you're going to be banned. Your career is over.

Speaker 1 Your ability to make money from basketball is over.

Speaker 1 What else is I going to say about

Speaker 1 Roger? Oh,

Speaker 1 the Heat surely have a lot of questions.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 March 23rd, 2023, aberrational betting is

Speaker 1 detected. The league begins an investigation.
They clear Terra Roger.

Speaker 1 The league probably at some point

Speaker 1 understands that Terror Roger remains under investigation by the federal government.

Speaker 1 Do the Heat know? Do the Hornets know when they trade him to the Heat? Do the Heat have any recompense here?

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 connected to that, I could see people saying, well, if the League knew that,

Speaker 1 why did they let him play?

Speaker 1 Why didn't they put him on leave like they do now? Why didn't they suspend him?

Speaker 1 And the answer is because the collective bargaining agreement exists and makes it very difficult to do, and the union would put up a very stinky fight about it and maybe and maybe probably win.

Speaker 1 But there's just a lot of thorny issues here, not the least of which, Kurt Goldsbury, is a former league employee. I'll bet you the tanking stuff stuck out to you too, right?

Speaker 1 Because there's the betting on the unders, and then there's the exploitation of tanking information. And tanking is just baked into the league.

Speaker 1 It's going to exist as long as there is a lottery, weight it however you want that favors the worst teams.

Speaker 1 And that was almost the most interesting part of the indictment to me was that a coach who matches the description of Chauncey's billups told a friend

Speaker 1 that we're sitting everybody tonight. And that friend then allegedly, allegedly went and bet on the games.
Now,

Speaker 1 did Chauncey do that knowing that that information was going to be used that way? That's unclear in the indictment. In fact, it's not unclear.
It's not alleged that he did.

Speaker 1 I don't think. Maybe I'd have to go reread it, but it's not what he's charged with.
He's charged with the poker indictment, not this.

Speaker 1 There's another one where an Orlando Magic player tells another part-time NBA player, sometimes NBA player that he's friends with, allegedly the gamblers talk to this other player and say, hey, go talk to your buddy with the magic, see if you can get something.

Speaker 1 And they gossip like they do. I don't know what you're supposed to do about that.

Speaker 1 That's the difference between Damon Jones and Rogier, for instance, is Rogier, the you use this knowledge for betting thing is a little vague compared to Damon Jones where there are text messages to him saying, yo, this player is out tonight.

Speaker 1 Play some bets and let me get some money. I just don't like.

Speaker 1 I don't know if there's a reckoning with tanking. Tanking is just what it is.
Most sports have drafts that reward the worst teams as a way of instituting competitive balance.

Speaker 1 It's just, you know, and the M, and I don't know. What are your thoughts? I'm rambling.

Speaker 2 There's so many things there. Tanking is interesting.

Speaker 2 I hadn't really thought about it in those terms, but, you know, I watch a lot of college football or English Premier League, and rarely are those teams trying to lose.

Speaker 2 Like, that's just not something that those leagues have.

Speaker 2 And so, you know, when you're talking about a betting market, the idea that a team would be trying to lose is relatively unique to the NBA, and it is a fact.

Speaker 2 And if they could get to a world where teams aren't incentivized to lose, that might clean up some of this.

Speaker 2 The other thing, as a data scientist, I think it's a lot easier to detect, what did you call it, aberrational betting, unusual patterns with player props than it is with big game money lines.

Speaker 2 Like, I can put money on the blazers to lose at a pretty big number by myself and not raise a bunch of red flags than if I bet a bunch of weird Terry Rogere props at a big number.

Speaker 2 I think those systems are really good at flagging unusual prop bets and might not be as good at individual games.

Speaker 2 I could be wrong on that, but that's something that crossed my mind as you were talking.

Speaker 2 And getting that right and getting the communication between that layer of safety that we have between the betting, because one of the best arguments for legalizing betting is what?

Speaker 2 We can flag this stuff now, and it's all above board. And if it were illegal, we couldn't flag this kind of suspicious activity.
So I think getting that layer of

Speaker 2 informing the leagues that there is suspicious betting behavior happening, I think getting that right is absolutely critical. And if they're not getting it right, we have a big problem.
And

Speaker 2 what proof do we have about what the NBA learns from FanDuel or DraftKings as they go through these important processes? That's interesting to me.

Speaker 2 But ultimately, I think I'm coming around to the idea, and Bill was saying this the other day too.

Speaker 2 Why do we have all these player props? Why am I allowed to bet on Terry Rogier or Jante Porter over unders in a game against the Wizards or whatever?

Speaker 2 What purpose, who is this serving? Like, this seems like one of the more tempting things to look at to fix it.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 and we have breaking news. The league sent a memo today, according to Shamstrania from ESPN.

Speaker 1 I'll just read his tweets.

Speaker 1 NBA informed its 30 teams that the league has begun the process of reviewing policies regarding injury reporting, training and education of all personnel, i.e., be quiet, and enhancing internal and external monitoring to identify betting activity of concern.

Speaker 1 The injury reporting is very, very important.

Speaker 1 We saw it with Towns in the very first game of the season for the Knicks where he's doubtful, questionable, probable, then he plays.

Speaker 1 We've seen it go the other way where someone's probable and then they don't play. And it's all just like teams treat this like it's so secretive.
Like, oh my God, we've got to trick.

Speaker 1 We've got to trick the Cavaliers into thinking Towns might play or might not play.

Speaker 1 Like the coaching staffs haven't, don't have, like, if suddenly a player is not playing, the opposing coach staffs, oh, we're helpless. We've got to stick with the original game plan.

Speaker 1 We don't know what to do. It's like, it doesn't have to be this secretive.
Just make a time and make it clear. Now,

Speaker 1 I still think you could, if you're tanking, which is just, again, it's part of the world.

Speaker 1 You could just like sit people for DNP coaches' decision as long as they're not, like, if the Blazers could sit Jeremy Grant, he doesn't fall under the player participation policy.

Speaker 1 I think they could.

Speaker 1 And then Shams also says,

Speaker 1 according to the memo, while the unusual betting on Terry Rogier's unders in the March 2023 game was detected in real time because the bets were placed legally,

Speaker 1 every memo is meant for the public.

Speaker 1 I mean, my God, we believe there is more that can be done from a legal regulatory perspective to protect the integrity of the NBA and our leagues, in particular, prop bets on individual player performances.

Speaker 1 This is what, you know, get rid of the unders on players who don't play very much.

Speaker 1 The injury reporting is a whole nother, a whole nother thing.

Speaker 1 I don't know how many more players, if any, are going to be ensnared by this Rogier sort of orbit. It may be none.

Speaker 1 And Chauncey, the thing of Chauncey or the co-conspirator that matches his description telling this guy that they're going to sit everybody before the public knows it

Speaker 1 is very problematic. But again, it's unclear if he...
did it for whatever purpose. I don't know.
I'm just...

Speaker 2 Yeah, the saddest thing, Zach Lowe, is this. The integrity of an average NBA game, and you and I all watched six of them tonight, you know, or whatever.

Speaker 2 The integrity and the public perception of the integrity of an average NBA game has gotten dinged in the last week, and that's just sad.

Speaker 2 And if this is quote-unquote the tip of the iceberg, which some people are saying it is, and I'm sure you've heard that too, like this sucks. It just sucks.
It's just,

Speaker 1 maybe I'm naive. I don't think it's the tip of the iceberg because the iceberg is much larger than the tip.

Speaker 1 If it's the tip of the iceberg, that means there's like a lot of other players underneath this. And I don't think that metaphor is going to hold.
Maybe I'm naive. We'll see.

Speaker 1 Breaking news before we go. Kurt Goldsberry mentioned Anthony Edwards' hamstring.
He is going to miss, according to news reports, two weeks.

Speaker 1 I don't think it's a re-evaluated in two weeks. I just think he's going to miss two weeks.

Speaker 1 Yes, Sean's tweeting that he's going to miss two weeks with the right hamstring. Strange sources tell ESPN.
I assume a press release will be coming out soon.

Speaker 1 Here's their schedule in the next two weeks.

Speaker 1 Tonight versus Denver. That hurts.
Yep. Versus the Lakers on Wednesday.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 At Charlotte, better try to win that one. At Brooklyn, better win that one.
At the Knicks, that's tough. Versus Utah, winnable.
At Kings, winnable. At Utah, winnable versus Sacramento.

Speaker 1 Again, winnable. So

Speaker 1 not ideal.

Speaker 1 But if you're a good team, And this goes back to the point guard void, though, that we talked about before. This is going to really stress DiVincenzo and Conley.

Speaker 1 Maybe we get Dillingham some minutes finally because of this. Randall will have to do more playmaking.

Speaker 1 But if you're a real team, and I believe the Wolves are, you find a way, let's just say there's nine games I just mentioned. You'd find a way to go five and four, four and five.
Stay afloat.

Speaker 1 This shouldn't just destroy you. But obviously, hamstrings, all this stuff, tread carefully, get it right, get back healthy.

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, and for those of us, you know,

Speaker 2 eager to see Terrence Shannon Jr.

Speaker 2 get a chance, like, they're going to need some scoring, and I'm a big Terrence Shannon Jr. guy.
I think he's going to get a good look at some more shots. I think this backcourt is now even weaker.

Speaker 2 And we just talked for five minutes about how they don't have a real point guard.

Speaker 2 Terrence Shannon has a chance to come in and really showcase, I think, what's a pretty high ceiling for that guy as a scorer.

Speaker 2 But it's a critical moment for Julius Randle, too, to keep it. Because, again, there's no room for error in the Western Conference.
Last year, it was like five teams jammed up by by three games.

Speaker 2 So any kind of two-weeks slump is going to cost you in the Western Conference standing.

Speaker 2 That's true.

Speaker 2 I just hope they get it right.

Speaker 1 And again, back in two weeks. Other teams will get dinged with injuries like this across the way.

Speaker 1 Six of their next, whatever, 10 games combined are against Charlotte, Brooklyn, Utah, and Sacramento. Just win.
Find a way to win.

Speaker 1 How about you find a way to win like most of those games in Minnesota? Kurt Goldsbury, what can we promote? What do you got coming?

Speaker 1 I got the cooking.

Speaker 2 I just did the Zach Lowe show. I am working on some Wemby stuff and some Cooper Flag stuff, but nothing coming right away.

Speaker 1 Those are good.

Speaker 2 I've been going to a lot of games this year in San Antonio and Dallas.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's a fun place to go see games. Kirk Goldsberry of the Ringer.com.
And if you buy his books, I've got all his books. I've got his map right behind me here.

Speaker 1 The Naismith Basketball International Park. Kirk, you're the man.
Thank you, sir. Thank you.

Speaker 1 All right, that's it for the Zach Lowe show today. Thank you to Kurt Goldsbury.
That was a loaded show.

Speaker 1 We got to a lot, a lot of basketball, a lot of not basketball, a lot of looking forward to what's coming up around the league. Thanks to Jesse, Jonathan, and Mike on production.

Speaker 1 We will see you later this week. Well, thanks to you, actually, for listening and watching wherever you get your podcast.

Speaker 1 We will see you later this week, likely on Thursday, barring something crazy happening in between, which CNBA, so you never know. Thank you all for listening to the Zach Lowe Show.

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