Philly Lovefest With Chris Ryan. Plus, Who’s Better or Worse Than We Thought with Mo Dakhil.

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Speaker 1 Coming up on the Zach Lowe show, we're more than a week into the NBA season. Who's better than we thought? Who's worse than we thought? Mo Takil is here.

Speaker 1 We're going to draft teams in those two categories and some teams that are on notice. On notice for a good reason? On notice for a bad reason.
Do the Chicago Bulls come up? You're damn right they do.

Speaker 1 Queue up the Allen Parsons project, baby. The Bulls are 4-0.
And we start off, boy, oh boy. I said it was over for the Sixers in the Joel Embiid era.
Couldn't possibly contend. Windows closed.

Speaker 1 Have to move on to the Maxie Edgecombe era. What if the Maxie and Edgecombe era is already here? And Jared McCain hasn't even played yet.
And Paul George hasn't even played yet.

Speaker 1 Chris Ryan, our own Chris Ryan, is here to revel in the good vibes and make fun of me and pretty much everybody else for being too low on the Sixers and talk about how actually does Joel Embiid look?

Speaker 1 Does this work? Is this team like a threat to make real noise? Maybe, maybe it is. And we'll talk injuries, other stuff, lots of stuff to talk about in the NBA, all coming up on the Zach Low Show.

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Speaker 1 welcome to the Zach Lowe show

Speaker 1 Chris Ryan is here

Speaker 1 he's wearing a sixers hat

Speaker 1 you know Chris

Speaker 1 When your own Weitzman wrote a column for theringer.com, is the window still open in the Joel Embiid era for the Sixers? I scoffed. I laughed.
I said, is anyone still even asking that question?

Speaker 1 Joelle Embiid could never get through a full season in playoffs healthy.

Speaker 1 Paul George is even healthy yet. The window has been shut.
It is shut. It's all about Maxie, Edgecombe, McCain, whatever else comes down the pike.
And here we are a couple weeks later.

Speaker 1 The Philadelphia 76ers are 4-0.

Speaker 1 And maybe those two eras are the same era.

Speaker 1 Chris Ryan, how humiliated should I be right now for scoffing at this very notion that this team in this weekend Eastern Conference where Boston's out and Indiana's out and everyone's injured?

Speaker 1 New York, what have they proven? Cleveland, what have they proven? And yet, I just wrote your team off. Wrote them off.

Speaker 1 Talk to me in a few years when Edge Collins in his prime and Maxie's in his prime. Wrote them off.

Speaker 1 How are you feeling today?

Speaker 2 You know where the window is open? In my heart, because this 4-0 Sixers team has kind of revived my love for this sport. And

Speaker 2 I'm not going to lie to you, I've had multiple text message threads with fellow Philadelphians about how many rings from the Philadelphia Eagles we would give back to sustain and protect

Speaker 2 the Edgecombe Maxi backcourt for the next eight years and just to keep them in this perfect moment, freeze it in amber. I am so so pumped up about this team.

Speaker 1 I mean, do you have hope?

Speaker 2 I mean, is it too early? It's not about that. It's about like, watch those guys explode off the bench during the Wizards game, during the Hornets game.

Speaker 2 Watch everybody, watch Quentin Grimes tweet, the vibes are immaculate. That's what it is.
After 2-12 last year, after several seasons of Harden and Embed,

Speaker 2 and honestly, for as much as I have so much love for Joelle and Bi, but after several years of watching him essentially spend half the game on the ground staring up at referees and kind of slumping his shoulders and just kind of being the emotionally dominant force on this team to the extent that even Maxi seemed pretty disaffected last season.

Speaker 2 To go to this season where everybody has bounce, Adem Bona is

Speaker 2 two-hand dunking game winners. We've got Quentin Grimes and Edgecombe and Maxi playing out of their minds.

Speaker 2 And we still have a minutes limited in Bi, a sweatsuited Paul George, and a recovering Jared McCain.

Speaker 2 They're the cavalry. So I kind of have, there's a lot of hope springing eternal right now here in the autumn.

Speaker 1 There's no question that, you know, Howard Beck was on the pod saying, ew, if everything goes right for the Sixers, like, why not? And I said, well, let me give you 10 reasons why not.

Speaker 1 And he was like,

Speaker 1 Nick Nurse, coach of the year, like, is possible? I'm like, Howard, you're insane. And, and you, two weeks later, you just made the case for, you know, who are you scared of in the East?

Speaker 1 The Cavalry's coming. Joel will presumably get healthier.
I don't know how healthy he'll stay, but he does not look great right now and yet still just puts in 25 points in 21 minutes.

Speaker 1 And those two got like complimentary guy, Paul George, who you can ignore, just to pretend the salary, it doesn't matter to you. Just do some like role player stuff at a high level.

Speaker 1 Like that's McCain. Like there's,

Speaker 1 I'm a little nervous now.

Speaker 2 It's also the crazy thing is the

Speaker 2 swing year over year

Speaker 2 in just vibe and atmosphere. So

Speaker 2 Edgecombe and Maxie and this backcourt somehow make Andre Drummond look three years younger, five years younger. I mean, his bounce, his sort of energy off the bench, Eric Gordon, who I,

Speaker 2 from, from everything I know, not the happiest camper last season or in general, smiling.

Speaker 2 Everybody's doing Bash brothers arm arm celebrations and so that kind of thing is just so sustaining especially at the beginning of a season and you're you know i'm home i'm watching wizards games for the first and a half time you know i'm going through these you you really want to be a part of it and i've been on the other side of it last season they started two and 12 and you're kind of like

Speaker 2 well i guess I'm going to watch Nuggets games this season. I don't know.

Speaker 2 You know, like you just kind of wind up having nothing to do when your team is in the dumps like that and you're sort of watching everything fall apart and decay. This is the complete opposite.

Speaker 2 I just feel completely alive with this team.

Speaker 1 Edgecombe, 22 points, 5.5 assists a game, shooting 47%, 43% on threes. Pretty solid on defense.

Speaker 1 I like he's got a certain poise to him on offense. He's a great athlete, you know, a great straight line athlete, but he plays with like a calm in the mid-range.
He has control of his dribble.

Speaker 1 He goes up for those little mid-range shots.

Speaker 1 He's unselfish. Like, there was, there, I think it was in the Wizards game.
He and Embiid ran a pick and roll, and there was a switch.

Speaker 1 And Embiid had a little guy on him, and Edgecombe had a big guy on him. And you could be a guard in that moment and be like, it's my time to shine.
I'm going to barbecue chicken this guy.

Speaker 1 Instead, he pulled it out. It's like, Joelle, big fellow, you take it.
There's like a certain maturity to his game, along with all the fun young guy explosiveness.

Speaker 1 Maybe he doesn't hit threes at this rate, but the shot looks great. What has been your favorite Edgecombe unexpected surprise?

Speaker 2 Well, I did not expect him to be handling the ball for half the game, at least, if not more. I mean,

Speaker 2 against the Wizards, like Max, he became a little bit more of the point guard, point guard down the stretch. But

Speaker 2 his ball handling and his playmaking has been really impressive. And then there's just like effort

Speaker 2 watching him miss a three and almost get his own rebound and scare the crap out of the defensive player who does get the rebound. But but he's just like, wait, where did this guy come from?

Speaker 2 Like, he just shot the ball 15 feet away from me, and now he's like underneath my elbow trying to poke it out from underneath. Now, there's like, you can see in the Wizards game, he's still a rookie.

Speaker 2 Like, he's, there's still times where Maxie or Grimes have to tell him where to be, or that he's supposed to be the guy setting a pick, or he's not there.

Speaker 1 It's funny you mentioned that. There were definitely some possessions of confusion.

Speaker 2 Yeah, him running around kind of in a little circle, and everybody's like, no, over there, over there.

Speaker 2 But I think that's honestly like giving him the ball and allowing him to play point a little bit takes a little bit of pressure off of Maxi, especially in this weird era of like we're getting like full court ball pressure on a lot of point guards.

Speaker 2 So you have Edgecombe take some of those miles off of Maxi. And then I think it just gives him a little bit of a different POV.

Speaker 2 If he's got to start a set, if he's going to be the initiator, he's like, oh, okay, now I see the play that we're running in its entirety and its totality.

Speaker 2 So I think it's a really smart move by Nurse, but it's also just like, shout out to this guy for just being able to do it because I did not know point guard was going to be something we were going to get out of him.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 there were people around him in his camp who were

Speaker 1 a little nervous about him and Philly because they wanted him to have the ball a lot and they didn't know if he was going to have be able to do it in that environment because they had hopes for him.

Speaker 1 Like he could be a number one guy. And it's like, look at him now.
I mean, he's way ahead of schedule.

Speaker 1 What is it like to watch Joelle Embiid

Speaker 1 supporting character, but also when he's in the game, kind of a lead character?

Speaker 1 And like, we're going to do the Joelle Embiid stuff where we slow it down and you're at the nail, but you're not quite the same guy athletically. And you're going to take way more threes.

Speaker 1 And like, he's kind of the lead. He's the lead.

Speaker 1 He's still the top name on the marquee, but it's not functionally like that. But what do you even want it to be like? It must be strange.

Speaker 2 It is strange.

Speaker 2 And I'm sure that there's going to be, you know, if he keeps playing at this pace and recovering, getting back into basketball shape, I'm sure we'll get back to like 32, 35 minutes a game.

Speaker 2 You know, these guys on this winning streak who've been playing have been playing pretty insane minutes, like, you know,

Speaker 2 especially with the comebacks against Charlotte and against the Wizards. So like, you know, Maxie playing like 40-plus minutes and stuff like that.
We're getting tibsy here.

Speaker 2 With Joel, the thing that I've been most impressed by, aside from his demeanor on the bench and his sense of humor in his post-game conversations with the media, where they're like, what does it feel like that the team's like better without you on the floor when you're on the floor?

Speaker 2 And he's like, thank God, it's been 12 years. I've been waiting for this.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 2 I've kind of enjoyed his passing. You know, I've enjoyed his playmaking.
And I think now one of the things that's been so cool about Edgecombe.

Speaker 2 upping the athleticism of the team by like three, five, 10% or whatever it is is that

Speaker 2 different kinds of plays are available. I feel like they're putting so much pressure on the hoop.
All these guys are running downhill at the rim, and

Speaker 2 beats thrown a couple of alley hoops or no-look passes. And he's getting into his playmaker bag in a way that I've really enjoyed.
So I would love to see more of that from him.

Speaker 2 When we get in, there will be inevitably like a, could this team have played better tonight if Joel was not slowing everything down?

Speaker 2 If you've got all these runners, like, do you really want to grind it out with Embiid at the top of the key? But I'll worry about that when we're like five and three, you know?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I also think they're kind of earning the right to outrun him if that's what the game demands. Like,

Speaker 1 you can be the trail guy if we don't produce anything on this fast break.

Speaker 1 And when the other team scores and we do have to walk it up, then maybe we'll play a little Joel ball, and that's the way it's going to be. He doesn't.

Speaker 1 My hope for how Embiid looks now is that he is kind of learning to trust his body again because he doesn't look like this dude used to just mash people under the basket.

Speaker 1 He could beat you with finesse and Elajo on stuff, but he also just could beat the hell out of you. And he's not really doing that anymore.
His post-touches are down.

Speaker 1 Even when he gets it, he doesn't look like he really wants to test his body physically and make aggressive physical contact. And my hope is that that's just a natural part of the recovery process.

Speaker 1 He's recovering. He's getting his confidence back.
But defensively, like Bagley went right at him

Speaker 1 on a drive right down the guts. Could see it.
Like Embid was right by the rim and Bagley was like, I'm not afraid of you.

Speaker 1 And Embiid just doesn't look like he can jump as high and cover space as quickly. So maybe that's part of the same symptom of just he's sort of rediscovering his confidence.

Speaker 1 But physically, there's no question. Does it look the same?

Speaker 1 How do you process that as a fan?

Speaker 2 I think the place where it's concerning aside from rim defense is also the transition defense because you can see when he's on the floor, I feel like teams are like, we take off make or miss because this guy can't get back.

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 2 and so that's gonna be a problem i you know he was never like the fastest guy but i feel like his defensive smarts have to now take over for his lack of defensive physicality and it's strange to watch bona essentially uh become prime to kembe mutumbo in the end of that wizards game and he's like flying all over the place and getting five blocks because Joel and Biad's on the bench, you know, and you're usually like, well, at least the back door is covered because Joe's back there.

Speaker 2 That's basically been the cornerstone of the Philly defense for the last 10 years. And so it's definitely an adjustment.
I hope that he learns to leap again.

Speaker 2 You know, I hope that there is at least the threat that he could block a shot, that he could get, you know, this rebound.

Speaker 2 But right now he's playing, trying to basically play angles and use his almost his reputation more than his body.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Keyshawn, Keyshawn George went at him too on a pick and roll and just kind of jumped right into him.

Speaker 1 He's like, I don't think you can get high enough to challenge me, big fella, and laid the ball in. I was like, okay, you know.

Speaker 1 And this is a guy who used to, he used to cover so much ground so fast that it was like startling that he would be like, wait, wasn't he just at the elbow? And it was like violent.

Speaker 1 He would come crashing and just smash a ball against the backboard. And I just, you know, but again, in his sleep, he scores 25 points in 20 minutes.

Speaker 1 He just goes out there, makes some threes, makes some jump shots, griffs some free throw. The free throw, his ability to just lean forward and get fouled is unbelievable.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and he's still throwing himself on the ground. Like, he's still selling it.
What I'm kind of curious to see, honestly, is how PG fits him because I do feel like there is

Speaker 2 a Paul George-size hole in the team.

Speaker 2 And if he can approach anything kind of close to the defense that he's capable of, and if he can, if he can contribute, like that's where this team gets kind of serious.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 If he's willing to buy into a more limited offensive role, like he, hey, you don't get, we're not running like Paul George Maxi inverted pick and rolls 15 times a game and Paul George MB.

Speaker 1 Like, that's part of it, but it's like way less of a part than you're used to because Maxie leads the league in scoring and he's averaging eight assists a game.

Speaker 1 And by the way, he's defending his ass off, too. Like, he's playing hard on defense.
He's getting his arms in passing lanes and all that. Then you're right.

Speaker 1 They become a really interesting team because he's just bigger than the guy. They're playing this three-guard lineup and it's killing people.
But eventually, they're going to need more size. And

Speaker 2 look, I yeah, they've got Lou Grey playing like

Speaker 2 a four-five hybrid sometimes.

Speaker 1 Like, can we just get, can you, can you be the second person with not the second person, but can you just give, can we give Kelly Ubre his flowers? I'm just saying, yes. He's the last

Speaker 1 year, amidst all the mess, this guy just brought it helter-skelter every single night. Then there were rumors over the summer, like, well, are they going to dump him to get under the tax?

Speaker 1 And I was like, dump him. He's the only guy who like showed up and played hard like 82 games last year.
And he's still doing, he's averaging 18 a game and shooting well again this year.

Speaker 2 He looks awesome, and honestly, the Grimes thing, I was like, What's going on here? This whole long contract negotiation guy's played like three games total, and he's a key, key part of the team.

Speaker 2 Like, I love this kid, and I love the three-guard lineup.

Speaker 2 It feels a little bit like regular season basketball to me when you watch, it's just you know, these short guys, and they're playing with effort, but they're trying to run people out of the gym.

Speaker 2 But that's my favorite kind of basketball.

Speaker 1 So, web, we've barely seen Watford, who I think can help. I like Justin Edwards.
I have a little soft spot for Justin Edwards. There's like

Speaker 1 just, it would be so wild if finally, after years of high expectations and disappointment, if the year where things really go right is the low expectations, and all of a sudden they're like, is this a

Speaker 1 I don't even know. I still don't know what to expect from it.
We all took the under. Me, Bill, and House took under 42 and a half.
I'm aware.

Speaker 1 That's probably not going to come in, but we were all like total stayaway. We don't know what to make of this team.

Speaker 2 But you can you can talk yourself into almost anything right now this must be just gleeful the scar tissue is real but you know what's been funny is that i realize you talk about like younger teams they have a good core and then they press the button and they go get somebody so for the sixers they did that a bunch of times they did it with with with jimmy butler then they tried it with al horford then they tried it with james harden we're now almost reverse engineering it where the sixers somehow found themselves this dazzling young core, but they don't have to press the button because Joel and B and Paul George are already on the team.

Speaker 2 So it's almost like they can make this combination hybrid veteran team with this young, exciting generation of guards that Maury has happened to draft with McCain and Vijay and Tyrese.

Speaker 2 And it really is like, it is kind of a miracle of team construction in this sense.

Speaker 1 Home against Boston on Halloween tomorrow. That's winnable.

Speaker 1 At Brooklyn, should be a win.

Speaker 1 Then you get Chicago, Cleveland, Cleveland, Toronto, Detroit, Boston. You're going through the Eastern Conference.

Speaker 1 You know, 10-20 play.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 I've been looking at the schedule, and I was like, the heart, there is not a, it's a really nice handshake of an opening of the season.

Speaker 1 You're not allowing yourself to

Speaker 1 think big picture, it sounds like. Just let's enjoy this.

Speaker 2 Because this has become appointment television.

Speaker 2 Because now it's like, I clear, clear out 4, 4.30 out here in LA let's get like I'm I'm on text threads like we're watching every minute the Ricky Sanchez goes on as soon as it goes up like it's it's it's mania over here so I'm not worried about playoffs the last five years it's been like well we got to get past the second round who cares about the regular season I care about the regular season now Edgecombe is just what a what a great I mean and that was you know being in the lottery room we all thought the Sixers had lost their pick when the balls came out and like Presti was there representing the Thunder.

Speaker 1 And I can't remember the exact order, but there was like after the first two got drawn,

Speaker 1 it was very bad for the Sixers because there were two people who leapt up and we're like, and Presty's sitting there just watching. We're like, oh my God, are the Six.

Speaker 1 After Dallas gets one,

Speaker 1 that's an earthquake. And then San Antonio comes two.
That's another mini earthquake.

Speaker 1 And then like the aftershock in the moment was, wait a second, what's happening with this Philly, Oklahoma City thing? Are they? Oh my god, and then bam, out comes Philly. It was just absolutely wild.

Speaker 1 What a gem, and he's the right pick. And not even considering a win-now trade was easily the right move for them.

Speaker 2 Do you have a preferred nickname for the backcourt? Edge Max?

Speaker 1 I'm glad you brought that up. We need to VJ Max cannot be it.
No.

Speaker 2 Edge Lords, it doesn't get have enough Maxi in it. The group chat guys were calling them Edge Lords.
I think Edge Max is good.

Speaker 2 it sounds like if you got it's like an hbo channel on hbo max that just shows uh you know extreme sports you know or something so i i'm trying to i'm trying to workshop though

Speaker 1 nothing with tyree nothing with tyrese nothing there's no tie something

Speaker 1 i'll have to think about you can't my only passion project on this is it cannot be vj max because tj max

Speaker 1 is

Speaker 1 I mean, my nickname for TJ Maxx, who will now never sponsor this podcast, is I just think they should rename themselves Crap for Sale. Like, whenever my wife is like, hey, can we stop in TJ Maxx?

Speaker 1 I'm like, you mean crap for sale?

Speaker 4 Yeah, you have stuff in piles.

Speaker 1 Do you want a lamp that's shaped like a cat and like painted gold come to crap for sale? So we could not have them named for VJ Max, but it's very exciting.

Speaker 2 Well, they're doing the Bash Brothers celebration, so maybe Bash Babies. I don't know.
Like, we'll figure something out.

Speaker 1 Edge Lords is not it. I like the effort.
We will have to figure something out. Chris Ryan, you're on a million podcasts.
Thank you for spending a little time.

Speaker 2 Zach, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1 All right, we're going to continue the better-than-we thought, worse-than-they thought draft with Mo Takil. How are you doing, Mo?

Speaker 4 I'm I'm doing great, except for my Dodgers completely not being able to get a single hit.

Speaker 1 We're in the World Series every year. Oh no, we're down 3-2.
When

Speaker 4 yeah, that's what it sounds like. And you know what? That's me.
Sorry. That's how I feel right now.
All of a sudden, like, we can't get a hit.

Speaker 1 What is Jason Bateman going to do? Oh, no.

Speaker 4 Oh, Zach, stop it. Stop it.
It hurts.

Speaker 1 Okay. That's all.
We're going to start with better than we thought.

Speaker 1 And there is no place to start here other than the 4-0, undefeated Chicago Bulls who beat the Kings, beat the pants off the Kings last night. The Kings,

Speaker 1 who may be tanking by accident. Is that possible? Or maybe Galaxy Brain on purpose, did the front office trick the ownership into thinking this team can be competitive because of the big name?

Speaker 1 Anyway, the Bulls. 15th in offense.
That's not bad for their personnel. Third in defense, despite giving up the most shots shots at the rim in the entire NBA.
Josh Giddy playing great.

Speaker 1 Io Dasumnu leading a bench unit that is destroying everybody. Kevin Herder playing the best all-around basketball of his career.
Matas Buzelis, you got something here, Chicago fans.

Speaker 1 We knew going into the season that you had something. You might have even more than we thought with the stuff this guy's doing on the ball.
His defense looks good. Mo,

Speaker 1 they have beaten Detroit. who's three and two orlando who we will talk about the kakaws who i'm not ready to talk about, and the Kings.
It's not a bad schedule. It's not a great schedule.

Speaker 1 It's not a bad schedule. This is a legit 4-0.

Speaker 1 The over-under on the Bulls when we recorded with Bill was 32.5. We all took the over, but it was the most unenthusiastic over.

Speaker 1 They look like a 38-39 win team for the millionth year in a row. Is it time to revise our expectations for the Chicago Bulls? Is this maybe like a 47 or 48 win team?

Speaker 4 47, 48, maybe a bit high. Can I split the difference? Can I go to like 40, 41? Like this is closer to like a 500

Speaker 4 team, which is great considering where they've been in the sense of

Speaker 1 500 mode. That's who they always are.
They win 39 games every year.

Speaker 4 Okay, so then I'll go 45 as the cap. I will cap it at 45.
I think they can win 45 games this year with just what we've seen through these four games.

Speaker 4 Because the more impressive thing is just the defense. I wasn't ready for that.
You know, and you talked about it.

Speaker 4 They're giving up the most shots at the rim, but they're actually, some of it might be luck, but the three-point defense is doing a pretty good job.

Speaker 4 They're doing a good job, I feel like, limiting opportunities for other teams. Most teams are only getting 27-3s attempts against some over at last, again, the past four games.

Speaker 4 But I just love everything I'm seeing from all their guys. And then the Bozellus leap has just been phenomenal.

Speaker 4 Like, it's been a fun, fun ride watching him go from like just being an explosive dunker to, yo, I can do a lot of stuff. It's stuff on ball.
It's stuff off ball. Last night he had a great cut.

Speaker 4 It was in the fourth quarter. It got by Russ, drew the and one on Russ with a beautiful pass.
You're getting stuff from Giddy.

Speaker 4 His three-point shooting is still continuing at the rate that we saw at the end of the year.

Speaker 4 Now, again, the caveat, which we always have to say when we talk about Giddy shooting, nobody's guarding it.

Speaker 4 But that's fine if he's going to keep knocking them down because that shot's going to be there and he's going to keep hitting them at the clip that he's hitting them. You're seeing so much from them.

Speaker 4 Like, how can you not be excited about this team? Like a team that we haven't been excited about for what?

Speaker 4 That quick start they had when they had Lonzo, that one year where they started out really well, but before that, it was basically Derek Rose was the last time we were excited about this team.

Speaker 4 Like, how do you not get pumped up? It's fun when Chicago is good.

Speaker 1 Giddy's catch and shoot three appears to now be a real thing. And

Speaker 1 you're right that people don't guard him.

Speaker 1 But I haven't looked up the distance from defense yet, but it seems like they're guarding him a little bit more. Like

Speaker 1 he's not just completely ignored off the ball.

Speaker 1 And on the ball, the big transformation to me that started happening last year and his continued this year is he's just so much more confident in his physicality and his strength.

Speaker 1 If you go under picks against him, which is the default defense against him, daring him to shoot, he's become so much more aggressive of just zooming, beating you to the spot, or if it's a tie, just nudging you out with his shoulder and going up for floaters.

Speaker 1 Or

Speaker 1 once he gets that separation by hitting people, the other defenders come and sense a problem, and then he starts spraying it out.

Speaker 1 You put him with a five-out center, and Vuch is a decent five-out center. The shots obviously been up and down, and give him space to work with.

Speaker 1 Even with a guy like Okoro, who's kind of a non-entity on offense standing in the corner, guys are going to ignore him. Giddy can do a lot of damage.

Speaker 1 Vuch is a smart, like he'll screen, shift down, a little shuffle down lower on the floor, re-screen. And Giddy makes hay out of that.
Boozellus also, like the pick and roll game is coming along.

Speaker 1 He's got a nice Hesi. He gets into people.
He's a, he's, I've always said he's got a nasty streak that I love. Um,

Speaker 1 the bench has been like

Speaker 1 really, really good. Desudu, by the way, eligible still for a four-year $87 million extension.
I don't think the Bulls will offer him that. They can do it anytime during the year until June, I think.

Speaker 1 His cap hold is only 14 million, and they have cap space this summer. So that may be something to consider.
But he has been like lights out late in games.

Speaker 1 And again, the straight line drives from him are so much more decisive.

Speaker 4 It's just that they've grown in a way where I don't think any of us were ready for. We're kind of seeing multiple leaps at the same time, right? You're talking about Io.
We talked about Giddy.

Speaker 4 We talked about Bozelis. I mean, Zach Patrick Williams is all of a suddenly.

Speaker 1 Stop. I can't.
Nope. We're just not going to talk about it.
We're not going to mention it. Move on.
I'm not ready. I'm not ready to go there yet.
Okay, okay.

Speaker 1 I'm aware of it. I'm aware of it.
I'm just not ready to speak about it.

Speaker 4 Gotcha. We'll leave that alone.
We'll put that to the side.

Speaker 4 But the fact that we're seeing multiple guys kind of up their game to a level like we haven't really seen or maybe expected, I think is the thing that puts them in this category of like, they got to be the number one pick in the better or worse draft.

Speaker 4 Like, this is a team that we were all very nonchalantly unenthused unenthused about this team. Like, yeah, there's the Bulls, whatever, like this or that.

Speaker 4 And then now they come out and it's fun basketball.

Speaker 4 It's exciting to watch in the way that they're playing and how they're handling themselves.

Speaker 4 And coming out with that big win against Detroit on opening night was almost like an announcement of what we are. And here we're here to stay.
They're getting good stuff from Herder off the bench.

Speaker 4 You're getting so many different, excuse me.

Speaker 4 Yeah, you're getting good stuff from Herder off the bench.

Speaker 4 All the stuff you're getting. You have six guys and double figures in scoring.
Like, that's something that's massive.

Speaker 4 You know, like just across the board, this is stuff I'm not used to seeing from Chicago over the past few seasons. I've kind of just put them in the box for a while, going, like, yeah, whatever.

Speaker 4 Like, I'll check on them. But, like,

Speaker 4 very unexcitedly going to watch a Chicago Bulls game where now I'm like, yo, what time are they playing? Cool. I got to make sure I'm on, I'm watching them.

Speaker 1 They play fast.

Speaker 1 They have an identity.

Speaker 1 The ultimate, you know, it when you see it thing in basketball, when a team knows who it is and has an identity, it's speed, defensive intensity, all-out effort, and elite shot selection on both ends of the floor.

Speaker 1 They do not take mid-range shots and they allow a lot of mid-range shots. They get to the rim a lot.
They take, well, they haven't taken that many threes this year, but

Speaker 1 they're a sort of mathy team quietly. And I just want to give Billy Donovan his flowers.
I've done it before and I'll do it again.

Speaker 1 You know, he wins the two national titles at Florida, comes to the NBA, inherits this incredible Oklahoma City team that is then decimated by Durant's departure and then goes through a bunch of weird iterations, including the fun three guard team with Schroeder,

Speaker 1 Shea, and CP3 that I really liked in the bubble. Then goes to Chicago.
And I think,

Speaker 1 you know, he's been kind of typecast as the... the sort of big picture thinker, motivator.
Like, is he really granularly in the X's and O's? What does he stand for in the NBA?

Speaker 1 Like, we knew what a Mike D'Antoni team was going to be. We knew what a Tom Thibodeau team was going to be.
We want these coaches to have a set identity.

Speaker 1 And I think the best thing you can say about Billy Donovan is he is so adaptable to whoever is on his team. He can discover, like, we got these three guards.

Speaker 1 We're going to find a way to play them all together in Oklahoma City. This team, we got Giddy.
We're going to play fast. We're going to spread the floor.

Speaker 1 Like he is incredibly, he stands for nothing and everything as a coach. He's kind of Carlisle-like in that Carlisle can adapt his...
his person to his personnel regardless of what it is.

Speaker 1 I think Billy Donovan does not get enough credit. I mean, he's in the Hall of Fame.
I guess he gets credit, but he's never mentioned as like one of the best coaches in the NBA.

Speaker 1 Even when the Bulls extend him and extend him again, the fans are like, eh, why? Like, what has he really done? Like, I just think the guy's a good coach.

Speaker 1 There was also something poetic last night about watching the Kings and the Bulls because the Kings should become the Bulls. But more than that, the Bulls

Speaker 1 traded Levine and traded DeRosan. And in both trades, most of the goodies went elsewhere because they needed because of how salary needed to move around.

Speaker 1 And I did make fun of the Bulls for like only the Bulls could trade the biggest names, and like the Spurs get the pick swap, or someone else gets a first-round pick.

Speaker 1 But just getting rid of those guys and going young has kind of unlocked that identity. And on the other side, the Kings are like, well, I guess we just are hoping for lottery luck again.

Speaker 1 The Bulls are really fun to watch. I am going to revise my priors.
I was too low on this team. I think this is going to be an above 500 team.
Is the start a little bit misleading? Maybe.

Speaker 1 You know, teams are going to start hitting some threes against them and some shots at the rim.

Speaker 1 But I think this is a solid team. And in the regular season,

Speaker 1 the best way to just become good, decent, whatever, 45 wins, play super hard, have depth, and have youth and energy. And the Bulls have all that.
They're really fun to watch.

Speaker 4 I mean, they're going to be a tough team when you come in on a second night of a back-to-back and they're just ready to run. And they're just going to run you guys off the floor.

Speaker 4 They're going to be nights we're going to have results where we're going to look and go like, wow, the Bulls won by this much.

Speaker 4 Like, it's going to be a a surprise there but i want to go back a little bit to what you said about billy donovan because there's a it's an underdiscussed trait that most coaches don't have and it's adaptability right like coaches by default are just stubborn and stubborn to all hell and and this is our system this is how we play i don't variate from this this is what i stay with all the damn time And you talked about it with Carlisle, you're talking about it with

Speaker 4 Billy Donovan.

Speaker 4 Just a sense of like, they're willing to say okay this is the team in front of me how do i make this work this is this is they're not saying okay i need to have these ingredients to make this they're like okay i got these ingredients what can i make and i think that's a big thing with what you're watching for with with this stuff and i'm with you like when he got extended this summer like everybody was kind of just like whatever i'm like he's a good coach what are they gonna he's the one stable thing that i feel confident about in chicago is that the team's gonna at least be well coached so one thing i was confident about, didn't maybe the talent wasn't good enough or whatnot, but he's always a solid rock there.

Speaker 4 And I think you're right. Like, we don't give him his flowers enough.

Speaker 1 And I was one of the only people, I wasn't as enthusiastic about it as Bill was, but I was defend, I defended the Giddy Caruso trade. I didn't defend it like wholeheartedly.

Speaker 1 I did not love it for the Bulls. I would have liked to have gotten a draft asset, but I said Giddy's solid.
People just sort of scoffed at 16, 8, and 8 at age 22. You can't do that.

Speaker 1 And I remember saying, like, he's going to have a month or two where he, where we look up, like, what, Giddy's averaging like 20, 11, and 9? What's going on?

Speaker 1 And yeah, he's got his limitations, but he's a good player. I didn't love that trade for the Bulls, but everyone just panned it as if it was this nonsense, horrible trade.
And that wasn't right.

Speaker 1 And Booleus, you got to up the projection. Like, after last year, it was clear he was going to be a very good rotation player in the NBA, good starter-level rotation player.

Speaker 1 I think he's on track to make an all-star team at some point in his career. I don't know when.
I don't know how many, but I would expect him to reach that level. Okay, Mo, pick a team.

Speaker 1 You get the number two pick in the draft. I picked the Bulls.

Speaker 1 We should have opened the podcast with the Allen Parsons project.

Speaker 1 From North Carolina.

Speaker 1 By the way, from North Carolina.

Speaker 1 Can we just talk about what a bummer it is that this is Michael Jordan's entire contribution to NBC's NBA coverage after all of this hype is just this like sit-down interview with Mike Torico?

Speaker 1 There's not even an iPad. It's one interview.
And he's ranting about load management already. Like we got to the second episode, the second one.

Speaker 1 And they're like, I guess we got to get to the load management stuff. Right.
That's where we are. Okay.
Second pick, Mo.

Speaker 4 I'm actually going to go with the Miami Heat.

Speaker 1 Ah, they're my second pick, too.

Speaker 4 Yeah, they're.

Speaker 4 They have totally revamped their offense. You've talked about it already.

Speaker 4 They took kind of what didn't work in Memphis when they basically said we're going to get away from ball screens and brought it over for the most part. And it's absolutely killing.

Speaker 4 Everybody's working off of this. You're seeing guys like Jaime Jakez, who was lost at sea last year,

Speaker 4 has kind of rejuvenated himself this year. You're seeing all sorts of guys.
I think the Norman Powell pickup was a great move at the time.

Speaker 4 I think we all loved it when it happened just because they didn't give up that much. And it made a whole lot of sense for them.
I love what they're getting from BAM.

Speaker 4 I love everything that they have going. But just the whole, they looked at themselves in the offseason, and you talked about it.

Speaker 4 I know we're kind of sort of reliving it, but just said, like, yo, our offense sucks. And it did.
It was absolutely atrocious to watch. And then they just said, all right, how do we fix that?

Speaker 4 And they would have fixed it right off the bat. You're seeing them just score at will at this point.
It's incredibly impressive for me.

Speaker 4 I was not expecting even just changing your whole offensive scheme for it to work that quickly.

Speaker 4 Like you would expect some growing pains and some stuff here and there where it's like a little stumbles and things. No, right off the bat, they've come out scored.

Speaker 1 I mentioned it before the season that I had heard from some birdies that Miami's offense is going to look dramatically different this year.

Speaker 1 I had heard, speaking of coaching adaptability, this is Team USA's head coach, by the way. Congrats, Spo, a Hall of Famer no-brainer.

Speaker 1 Reached out outside his organization to some of the coaches, I think Noah LaRoche among them, who helmed this Memphis thing.

Speaker 1 And I would argue, Mo, it did work until John Morant got unhappy about it and the wheels kind of fell off the defense

Speaker 1 last season in Memphis. Reached out to those kinds of people and was like, Help me, teach me how to teach this.

Speaker 1 And it's working so far. And you can understand what, so to be clear, Miami is running 22 pick and rolls per 100 possessions.

Speaker 1 That's the lowest number in the league by such an enormous amount, it almost looks like a typo.

Speaker 1 The next lowest is Utah, who I'm going to draft at some point, is running 38 so 16 to get from utah down to miami it's an iso drive kick drive draw play the angles and you could see what they were thinking because we've got this bully ball point guard in davion mitchell who's not not a great passer not much of a pick and roll guy but is a bulldog who can get into you We've got all these kind of big wings who have a herky jerky elbows out, smash you in the chest and keep on dribbling.

Speaker 1 And Jake is a perfect fit for it. Jovich is a good fit for it.
Simone Fontechio, look, man, I don't know how many times I got to say on this podcast, this dude is good. Detroit didn't even play him.

Speaker 1 He's on fire in Miami.

Speaker 1 And Norm Powell, like, not a great passer. Like, they're not a great passing team.
And this is a way to sort of compensate for that.

Speaker 1 We're just going to drive and dish and drive and dish and keep it simple. Norm's great for that.
The question will be, what does Hero think about it? Because John Morant didn't like it.

Speaker 1 John Morant wanted to run ball screens. I don't think Hero is necessarily a bad fit for it.

Speaker 1 And I actually don't think, even watching it now, that Spo is going to be as didactic about it as the Grizzlies were. And he'll be able to mix and match styles based on personnel.

Speaker 1 They are shooting the hell out of it from everywhere. So they're probably playing a little bit above their heads when you look at the numbers offensively.
Defensively, they're rock solid.

Speaker 1 I think they're going to be rock solid.

Speaker 1 Their schedule has been, you know, Orlando, Memphis, New York, Charlottes, not Cupcakes.

Speaker 1 I was higher than consensus on this team all summer.

Speaker 1 I don't think it's going to be crazy. I still think they're like a 44-ish win team, but I think they're pretty solid.
And something interesting is happening here.

Speaker 1 The big question now is they've gone back to starting where and bam together. The numbers are not great on that yet, and it's interesting to see sort of how that evolves.

Speaker 1 But I just think, I think this team has a lot of solid players who fit this system well. And they're just, you know, they're going to, they're the heat, hardest playing, toughest playing.

Speaker 1 They're going going to play hard every night.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, that's what you're going to get. And again, the

Speaker 4 improvements we're seeing from Jovich is big, you know, I think is helping in that regards. You know, it's all the stuff that you're getting and that you expect from a SPO team, though, right?

Speaker 4 Hard-nose defense on top of that. If they can maintain this defensive level, I think they're fourth in defensive rating early in the season.

Speaker 4 I know the numbers are, you know, can get kind of wonky, but if they can maintain that while playing this style to a certain degree, I think they're just more exciting.

Speaker 4 Even if the win total is probably about the same, I think, as we all had, it's an exciting brand in the way of like, this is something we can build upon.

Speaker 4 There's actually a path for what we want to become now and know what we want to do and how we want to go about getting guys, what guys we want to go get that can operate in this system.

Speaker 4 And this is one of those things, because I said it from the beginning of the year, this is the perfect team for Spo, only because this is the team that everybody kind of looked at, like, we're not sure, whatever, low expectations.

Speaker 4 And this is when Spo blows the expectations out of the water. I think this is kind of the squad you want to have if you're him.
And like you said, the shooting numbers will come down a little bit.

Speaker 4 It may not be as teams, will get a little bit more used to the style. Defensively, they'll adjust and how they'll attack it.

Speaker 4 But I think ultimately, though, you just got to look at it going, like, we have a path.

Speaker 4 We have an offensive system that isn't so dialed down that we're just like, guys, this is just, we, what are you guys doing? It's a struggle to get to like 100 at this point.

Speaker 4 Like, now we know the way they're going to play and how they're going to go about it. You can't talk enough about it.
Like it just, it's got me completely off guard.

Speaker 4 I know the offense, just it working as quickly as it has is really what has surprised me so much.

Speaker 1 And now we've reached what I call the NBA scandal interlude of every podcast episode.

Speaker 1 It's time to talk a little bit about Terry Rogier, who is still on the Heats books, even though he's been placed on leave and apparently will not be paid.

Speaker 1 A couple of things I wanted to clarify after last week's episode and sort of after talking to more people, things I'm curious about. Number one,

Speaker 1 how big is this poker thing? And is it going to be bigger in terms of just the number of names involved? And not criminally, just like names that play high-stakes poker that are going to come out.

Speaker 1 Number two,

Speaker 1 the union, yesterday, the players union said, released a statement that they're going to challenge the decision to place Terry Roger on leave via the proper channels.

Speaker 1 I alluded to that last episode saying, you know, that had the NBA actually tried to take strong action when they first learned about the aberrational betting, the union would have surely grieved it and said, can you prove it?

Speaker 1 And I know they even read the indictment.

Speaker 1 And I know the indictment accuses Rogier in pretty clear terms of pulling himself out of a game specifically and telling people that he was going to do it specifically so they could wager on the game.

Speaker 1 Then they're counting money. Sounds really bad.
If it's true, it's beyond really bad. And he will be banned from the NBA forever, just like Jante Porter was.

Speaker 1 The union's claim is going to be, well, I don't know that you've proven that. And that's their job.
That's just what they're going to claim.

Speaker 1 The third thing I want to say is I said earlier this week that the league, quote, cleared Terry Rogier after investigating the aberrational betting patterns in March 2023 when they were alerted to it, looking at his phone, et cetera.

Speaker 1 Got some pushback from the league office saying,

Speaker 1 we didn't clear him. We can't clear him.
Semantically, that's true because the league knew that he was under investigation by the government. They are not a legal entity.
They can't clear him.

Speaker 1 That said, Adam Silver went on Amazon Prime and said it was brought to our attention by regulators and betting companies. We looked into the situation, and frankly, we couldn't find anything.

Speaker 1 And that there was, quote, insufficient evidence by their standards to do anything about it. So you can say they cleared him, they didn't clear him.
They can't clear him. They're not a court of law.

Speaker 1 They decided he didn't have they couldn't find any evidence that he violated NBA rules. And more to the point I was trying to make, Mo, in that episode.
That's in 2023.

Speaker 1 He continues to play for the Hornets. They trade him to the Heat.
And my point was, should the Heat have been informed? Should the 29 other teams have been informed? Were they informed?

Speaker 1 What did they know?

Speaker 1 Because there's two, there's like if the league had tried to take action against Rogier in that time based on what they found on his phone, which is apparently not much, the union would have grieved it for sure.

Speaker 1 A lesser thing to do would have been to sort of give everyone a heads up that this was happening. I think it's still sort of, that's a little bit murky.
Okay, end of the scandal talk.

Speaker 1 Scandal interlead over.

Speaker 1 Scandal sponsored by Ace Playing Cards. Ace,

Speaker 1 when you want to play cards, use Ace. I don't know.
They have the cool, we have a cool waterproof deck. Ace cards.
Not sponsoring the podcast, to be clear.

Speaker 1 Third pick in the draft, it goes to me, Mo, and I'm going to stay positive. I am going to pick the Milwaukee Bucks, who are 3-1.

Speaker 1 They are eighth in offense, 13th in defense. Giannis, I think, after five games, would be the MVP of the NBA.
That means nothing. It's five games.
Jokic is still walking into triple-doubles.

Speaker 1 Shea is still walking into 30 pieces, and Wemby is just wembing all over the place.

Speaker 1 But the Bucs look pretty good.

Speaker 1 And they are the common denominator of their season is that they're just dominating the rim, dominating the basket area. They take the fourth most shots at the rim.

Speaker 1 They're shooting 80%

Speaker 1 at the basket. Hello, Giannis.

Speaker 1 They allow the eighth fewest shots at the rim,

Speaker 1 and they are limiting teams to the fourth lowest shooting percentage at the rim. They're just a battering ram of a team with a battering ram of a superstar.

Speaker 1 And despite Kuzma missing at least one game, KPJ missing a few games, Miles Turner getting off to an a start, they've gotten enough.

Speaker 1 from the guys around Giannis to look like in an east where Cleveland is a little just injury, just

Speaker 1 kind of going through it a little bit at three and two. New York, they're going to be in my on notice section.
Philly's on fire. We talked about that with Chris Gryan.

Speaker 1 Milwaukee's whole thing was in this conference, in this season, we think this team's actually good enough to make noise in the playoffs through five games or whatever, four games.

Speaker 1 They have to be somewhat optimistic that that's true. What have you seen other than Giannis being brilliant? uh for the Bucs?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think it's my biggest question, Mark, was the guard play and what are they going to get from guys like Cole Anthony and Ryan Rollins?

Speaker 4 And I think you're seeing, they're getting a lot of good stuff. Cole Anthony averaging seven assists.

Speaker 4 He's doing a great job, kind of distributing the ball and finding stuff, not knocking down a lot of three balls. We want to want to see that number get going.

Speaker 4 I like the way Ryan Rollins plays for them. And I think he's been a good addition for them in the way that he's playing in the starting lineup.
He's been moving really well. He's shooting.

Speaker 4 35% from three. And I think that's what we're hoping to get, again, a little more from that.

Speaker 4 But I just like what they're getting from the guard play across the board, where it's that was the biggest question mark for me.

Speaker 4 Because I knew what Giannis was going to be, Giannis, maybe not to this level, but like still expecting still great things from him. But I was always worried about the other guys around him.

Speaker 4 And it always is going to come down to me. for me, the defense.
And it's the perimeter defense.

Speaker 4 And when they play these teams with quick guards and things like that, how are they going to be able to handle that? I think so far this year, you know, they've been okay.

Speaker 4 Like they've been able to hold up well defensively in that regards, and that's why they're three and one. That win against New York was a big win.
Great win.

Speaker 1 Great win.

Speaker 4 It was a great sort of just, we got something here. We know we have, like, we're, we're, we're also letting everybody know we have something here.
Like, I think that's the stuff you're looking at.

Speaker 4 Doc's done a really good job with this team. They haven't, they've kind of blocked out the noise, you know, about this team and have just focused on the games and playing.

Speaker 4 And I'm being very impressed with the guard, the guard play they're getting so far.

Speaker 1 Giannis,

Speaker 1 36, 14, and 7. Okay.

Speaker 1 Shooting 71% on twos.

Speaker 1 Even making his threes.

Speaker 1 Doing everything for the Bucs. They are plus 41 with Giannis on the floor, minus 17 with him off the floor.
My biggest worry for the team is

Speaker 1 not can he keep this up because the guy is a proven MVP candidate every year, but this is the biggest burden he's ever shouldered, and it's not close. There is no

Speaker 1 reliable, high-volume, which is the key word, second ball handling option on the team. Cole Anthony will go crazy on bench units, and he's been fantastic.

Speaker 1 Um, there's no Dame, there's no Drew, there's no Chris. It's all on Giannis all the time, and I just worry about fatigue, about injury, but it's too early to really worry about that.

Speaker 3 Um,

Speaker 1 you said you like Ryan Rollins, I love Ryan Rollins.

Speaker 1 I think this guy's a legit, solid two-way guard.

Speaker 1 He's got pop, makes plays at the basket on both ends of the floor, got a little bit of a mid-range game, defends his ass off, has really found himself this season as a complimentary player.

Speaker 1 And I'd keep him in the starting five when Kevin Porter Jr. comes back and bring Kevin Porter Jr.
off the bench because I like Green and I like Trent in the starting five.

Speaker 1 And the other happy subplot for the Bucks, Mo,

Speaker 1 the league is starting to call the 10-second rule on Giannis.

Speaker 1 What a miracle.

Speaker 1 Imagine having a rule that only one player in the entire league is allowed to violate. It's annoying as fuck to everybody involved.

Speaker 1 And you just pretend it's not on the books to the point that when opposing fans start chanting it and one team starts a countdown on their scoreboard, you don't tisk tis Giannis.

Speaker 1 You tisk tiss the Brooklyn Nets for pointing out that he's violating a rule.

Speaker 1 10 seconds and they're calling it. They've called it at least once, maybe twice.
So keep calling it. Okay, you get the next.
Anything else on the Bucs?

Speaker 4 No, I think I like where they're at now.

Speaker 4 I want to see the longer run of it with everything they have. But, Zach, I'm going to go negative now.
Okay.

Speaker 4 We went positive for a little bit longer than I thought.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 4 The Orlando Magic have been the most frustrating team for me to start the season.

Speaker 1 Like, nothing drives me. I'm putting on my Oscar straps.

Speaker 1 It's Halloween tomorrow. You're being negative.
It's time for Oscar to come out.

Speaker 4 Yeah, no, it's no question the magic. And it's been, I was so high on them before the season started.
Once they get Bane, they're going to figure out their offense. They're going to find some.

Speaker 4 Nothing has changed for them offensively. Nothing is really kind of, there's no fluidity.
There's no system.

Speaker 4 There's no kind of idea of how they want to attack, how we're going to incorporate Bane into all this. They're still getting a lot of tough shots for Paolo, Franz, all those guys.

Speaker 4 And then on top of all that, the defense has fallen off the cliff. Like the bedrock, this is what they kind of banked on.

Speaker 4 And this is what we could always count on: was, hey, their defense is going to be so good. And I was saying it, their offense only has to be so much better because I can count on their defense.

Speaker 4 And their defense has been atrocious. And it's been really just kind of flabbergasted.
Like, I don't understand really what's going on.

Speaker 4 I don't understand why you could have, you make the trade for Desmond Bain, end of June, early July, go all in,

Speaker 4 and you have all of this time to put put together an offensive system, have meetings with your staff, coaches retreats, all these things.

Speaker 4 Let's put together a plan for our offense so we can kind of juice up our offense, and you come out with nothing.

Speaker 4 Meanwhile, Miami, we talked about them, has completely changed their offense and are playing it differently. Not asking you to play Miami style, but I'm asking you to come up with a style.

Speaker 4 And it's really one of the most disappointing teams for me. I'm really frustrated with watching the Magic.

Speaker 1 So they're 27th in offense,

Speaker 1 which is just what the Magic do. It's just what they do, and it should be better than that.

Speaker 1 I remember over the summer, I think with Bill

Speaker 1 doing a hot seat primer for coaches.

Speaker 1 And I said on there that I want to be clear,

Speaker 1 this is paraphrasing what I said, but I remember saying this. It's like, I want to be clear.
This coach's seat is not hot. It's actually pretty cold.
based on what he's done so far in the league.

Speaker 1 But I've got my eye on Jamal Mosley just because, like,

Speaker 1 can we see some

Speaker 1 progress in offensive identity? I do think he's tried to do stuff. They'll run split actions every once in a while with Franz and Paolo.
And, like, you know, their bane is just being integrated.

Speaker 1 And I said earlier this week, I think if you give this ecosystem time to gel and figure out their timing and getting from one action to another a little quicker and how to use Bane and how to use Tyr Jones only played nine minutes last night,

Speaker 1 that I think they should be 18th. Can we get to 18th? But I just said I've got my eye on on it because the time for this team to be shitty on offense and uncreative and boring is over.

Speaker 1 And we're five games in. They're one and four.
Their offense still stinks. Now they're going to start making shots.
I guess they're going to start making shots. I don't know.
They made some

Speaker 1 actually.

Speaker 1 I don't, the pressure is going to heat up on Jamal Mosley. That's just the reality of it.
Now, the defense is what the real problem is because we didn't expect this team to be that good on offense.

Speaker 1 They're 23rd on defense. And what's alarming is opponents are not even shooting particularly well.
They are just getting bullied in a way where they're supposed to be the bullies.

Speaker 1 So they're fouling the hell out of everybody. And that's just what they do.
The trade-off for that is supposed to be forcing lots of turnovers. They're not doing that.

Speaker 1 And winning the rebounding battle. And they're not doing that.
And the other issue I look at.

Speaker 1 You know, all the attention for them has been on guards and what guards should they go get and shooting. And they addressed that with Definitely.
And I think he'll be fine.

Speaker 1 I've said a bunch of times, like,

Speaker 1 I wonder if they need to rethink the center position, too, because Wendell Carter Jr. is solid, but like, what is he actually

Speaker 1 above average at on offense? He's not a great roller. He's not a great finisher.
He's not a great jump shooter. He's not a great passer.
He doesn't get to the line a ton.

Speaker 1 And then they have these backups who are both good and Goga and Mo Vagdar when he gets healthy. They just don't have a center that pressures the rim or is an elite defensive center.

Speaker 1 And I don't know how they can go get one. I don't know if they need need to go get one.
They probably don't think so. But they were on my list of just

Speaker 1 this is going to be ugly if they can't come out of this. Now, I took the over on them at 50 and a half.
That's probably already gone based on a one and four start.

Speaker 1 This team should be way, way better than this. I don't understand what's happening with their defense.
After every game, the comments are the same. We let our offense infect our defense.

Speaker 1 When we miss shots, we don't defend hard enough. Okay, well, this is the freaking NBA.
How about you just like

Speaker 1 the same thing happened last year. You missed every shot last year, and you were the third best defense in the NBA.
Bring it on that end, and let's talk.

Speaker 4 I just don't, I mean, I just can't. You lost your defensive identity in a way where I don't understand it, right? Because is Moe Wagner that important?

Speaker 4 Like, you, you, like, that he's the muscle behind it.

Speaker 4 I like what you're right about the center position. I don't know how they improve it.
I don't know how they get to where they need to, especially because they gave gave up a lot to get paid.

Speaker 1 How about Isaac is like a total zero now? Like, I can't even get 12 good minutes out of him anymore. He looks big and beefy.
He's not moving around as well. It's like he's given them nothing.

Speaker 1 They started him in the playoffs two seasons ago against Cleveland. Like they've

Speaker 1 a total zero now.

Speaker 4 Yeah, no, it's been, it's just brutal in the sense of like the decline from him, the decline across the board defensively. Like, I don't know what you're supposed

Speaker 4 when you lose who you are. And it's not like, here's the thing that frustrates me.
It's not like, okay,

Speaker 4 we've given up our defense. Like, we've lost our core principles on defense.
But look, our offense is better. It wasn't like we just had focused so much on offense that we kind of lost our defense.

Speaker 4 No, our offense sucks. And now our defense sucks.
Like, you're in a very difficult position where I don't know how you recover from that.

Speaker 4 The 50 wins mark is gone to me because I don't see starting one and four, but I don't see any real improvements offensively.

Speaker 4 A couple actions here or there, but there's still no offensive identity, right?

Speaker 4 There's no way, you know, we talked about it before, the adding Bane, maybe they can get a, using him in pick and roll to finally give Paolo an advantage on a switch would be nice.

Speaker 4 We don't get a lot of that stuff. We're not getting a lot of the different things there.
Defensively, the wheel's just completely falling off. I wasn't ready for that.

Speaker 4 And I think that's something that's really going to be a problem. And yeah, like that seat's going to get warm very quickly.

Speaker 1 I think their defense will normalize because I just don't understand how a team can go. I mean, they were very good defensively two seasons ago.

Speaker 1 I don't know how you can go from good, elite, elite, terrible. I think they'll normalize and be a top 11, top nine kind of defense.
That's not going to be good enough to carry their offense.

Speaker 1 And if they're not a top 10 defense, this whole team construction falls away and collapses.

Speaker 1 Yeah, this is a very problematic start for the Magic. I just don't, you know, it's funny.
I just, not funny. I just don't, I don't know.
Jamal Mosley's done a great job.

Speaker 1 He's been in the Coach of the Air conversation for a couple of years now. I don't know

Speaker 1 how much of a sort of

Speaker 1 how much leeway he's going to get, but

Speaker 1 probably a lot. I don't, you know, but who knows? Anyway, as you said, the seat will get warm.

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Speaker 1 Okay, my pick. This is the last one we're going to do a deep dive on.
I'm taking off, Oscar, because I'm going to be in a good mood. The Golden State Warriors look unbelievable.
Now,

Speaker 1 they play tonight. They play the Bucs tonight.
So, you know, we'll see what happens. We're recording this early in the morning on the East Coast.

Speaker 1 But they look very, very good. They're 4-1.

Speaker 1 And they are 10th in offense, 11th on defense. So solid on both ends of the floor.
And Kaminga,

Speaker 1 it turns out Kaminga might be good. Who could have ever predicted that Jonathan Kaminga might be good? Now, has he rounded out his game? Absolutely.

Speaker 1 He's making much better decisions with the ball, quicker decisions with the ball.

Speaker 1 And he's doing the thing that if he had done it the whole time, he would have been playing more, defending his ass off, and being attentive on the ball, off the ball, all of it.

Speaker 1 The stat of the year on the Western Conference so far, Curry, Butler, Kaminga, and Green. That forsome.

Speaker 1 Plus 44 in 72 minutes.

Speaker 1 They played, forget plus minus, they played. 23 minutes together all of last season.

Speaker 1 In five games, they have tripled their minutes played together, and it's working really well moody's back and he he really

Speaker 1 with his three and d and drive some closeouts he gives them a little more size on the wing uh and rounds out a lot of their alignures pajemsky's been up and down but i i just think he's a solid player the shot will come buddy's good um

Speaker 1 horford is al horford he's just gonna do what he does um they're just

Speaker 1 i i said the window had shut on them as a championship contender.

Speaker 1 I'm not ready to really reopen it yet, but I will say to their credit, that's more about how good Oklahoma City and Denver are and how old the Warriors are. This is a marathon.

Speaker 1 Four and one is awesome. You got to get through 82 in a playoffs with this roster.
So I'm not ready to crack it open, but I opened like the latch is open.

Speaker 1 Like the little latch you got to pull before you lift the window. I'm opening that because this team looks awesome.

Speaker 1 And we're going to look back at that Jimmy Butler trade as both what happened and what didn't happen with Durant not going to Miami and not going to Golden State

Speaker 1 as an all-time transformational moment, not all-time, but as a massive transformational moment because you got to give the Warriors credit. Number one,

Speaker 1 their number one goal was to give Steph Curry a competitive team as he enters his Twilight and eventually exits the league. They've done that.
This team is going to be competitive.

Speaker 1 They're going to be a home court type playoff team. I mean, the West is going to be jumbled, but they're really good.
And

Speaker 1 I've made fun of two timelines a lot of times. The Wiseman whiff was huge.

Speaker 1 I've noted several times that it was not a plan. It was an accident of injuries and free agency

Speaker 1 departures. But Kaminga is good.
Moody's good. Pajemski is good.

Speaker 1 I don't know that that is the nucleus of like a 55-win team in five years or four years when Curry's gone and Green's gone and Butler's gone.

Speaker 1 But those are good players that are that are good enough now to help the veteran guys. Now, can they beat Denver or Oklahoma City in a playoff series? I don't know.

Speaker 1 I don't know how they're going to get through 82, but it's very clear. Now, I took the over on them at 47.5,

Speaker 1 but it's very clear they're even better than that.

Speaker 1 This is a really, really good team.

Speaker 4 This is one of the best surprises of the season so far. And it starts with Kaminga, the way you said.
And I want to highlight there was a play against Denver. and their win against Denver.

Speaker 4 It was late in the game. And this is something I've never,

Speaker 4 he never had the awareness for this, but late in the game, the Nuggets need a bucket. They get a pick and roll.
They get Steph switched on to Jokic.

Speaker 4 And Jokic is beginning to back him down without the ball. He's getting ready to get the post-up.
And Kaminga comes, Scraham switches him out.

Speaker 4 Like, I'm sitting in my couch, like, going nuts. Like, this is absolutely, like, he's never done this.
And then they get the ball to Jokic, and he gets the stop.

Speaker 4 But, like, that was, that's when I was like, this game's over. They're going to win.
It's over. And it was late, late, late possession.

Speaker 4 So it it was the much much needed bucket for the nuggets but for kaminga to have that awareness and something that we've not seen from him that's when i was like okay he's really grown to another level i love what he's doing on offense he's making the next pass he's making the right read same game earlier obviously but he has jamal murray jamal murray on a post-up Young Kaminga would just try to abuse that or whatever.

Speaker 4 Jokic starts coming over.

Speaker 4 One of the funniest cuts I've ever seen because Draymond just kind of saunters down the the lane. It wasn't like a straight line.

Speaker 4 It was just kind of wanders down there, but Kaminga throws the ball into the right, perfect open spot right to Draymond for a layup.

Speaker 4 Like it's easy stuff that he's seeing things differently in a way where I'm like blown away by his improvements.

Speaker 4 So for me with him at that next level, and if he's going to continue to play at this level, like...

Speaker 4 I think they're, I don't know if they could beat Denver and OKC, like you said, in a playoff series, but I think they can give him a hell of a run, assuming, again, healthy all the way through.

Speaker 4 We're going to talk about this because this is an older team. We're going to have those concerns.
And right off the bat, Jimmy Butler shooting 57% from three on just under three attempts. Like,

Speaker 1 usually that doesn't happen until May. He suddenly wakes up and becomes a three-point shooter.

Speaker 1 Look, when they got Butler,

Speaker 1 there was a lot of consternation about, well, he's a non-shooter. They have Draymond's a non-shooter.
And I just poo-pooed that immediately because if you watch Jimmy Butler play,

Speaker 1 it's all of the little things. It's all of the in-between moments that make him a star.
The cuts, the random screens, the smart passes, the recognition of matchups, all of that stuff.

Speaker 1 He's elite at that.

Speaker 1 He is a two steps ahead of the game thinker who would fit right in to how they play. Split actions, cuts, improvisation, all that stuff.
You throw in Kaminga, the shooting.

Speaker 1 got wonky enough that Steve Kerr obviously decided

Speaker 1 we just can't play all these guys together. I've always said I thought Kaminga

Speaker 1 look at times he played selfishly he played with tunnel vision at other times you could see him trying to blend in to how the warriors play

Speaker 1 and now he's just amped that up and found an even even sweeter spot in that equation. I think this team is really really good and

Speaker 1 I don't, I mean, I have no notes. That game against Denver was maybe the game of the year so far.
There's been a lot of game of the year candidates.

Speaker 1 But, you know, look, and Steph hasn't even like been unbelievable so far either. He's been good, but not like crazy good.
And they're 4-1 going into tonight's game. But, you know, they're in the West.

Speaker 1 It's loaded out there. Any other Warriors notes?

Speaker 4 I just think, again, what we're getting from Draymond and Steph and all those guys, we know what we're going to get. I think it's going to come down to other guys too, though, like Moody, Podemski.

Speaker 4 You know, what can those guys kind of continue to bring to kind of so Steph doesn't have to press so much. Like, if they can do all this where Steph can kind of

Speaker 4 coasting for Steph is still, you know, 27 points a night kind of thing.

Speaker 1 I was going to say, I'm going to take back my Steph hasn't even been that great.

Speaker 1 27 and 5 on 50% shooting, 42% on 10-3s a game. Only 30 minutes a game.
That's a great stat to monitor too. But he has been, I guess

Speaker 1 I'm guilty in this moment. But no, no.

Speaker 4 But it's not just that, though, but it's also not been like he's only had to dial it up when they've absolutely needed it. In

Speaker 4 in a certain way.

Speaker 4 Like, it's the numbers are the numbers that are amazing, but it's felt so much harder the past few seasons for him to hit those numbers, where he's kind of like getting to these numbers in a little bit of an easier way, where I feel like if they can continue that, so then when he does dial it up and needs to dial it up towards the end of the season, they can go to another level.

Speaker 4 Like, this is a really interesting team to just watch through the course of the season. If they can say, I hate saying it, but healthy.

Speaker 1 They're old. Melton hasn't even played yet.
And Will Richard, shout out Mike Dunlevy Jr. in the Warriors front office.
Will Richard is good.

Speaker 1 His guy is like, I'm always happy when he's on the floor. Like, that guy's a helpful guy.

Speaker 1 Okay, that is the official end of our better or worse draft. However, we are going to shout out teams that are on notice very quickly on the good side and the bad side.
I'm going to start out.

Speaker 1 I'm going to put Oscar back on. I'm going to start out on the bad side.
Here are teams I'm grouchy about so far.

Speaker 1 The Knicks.

Speaker 1 It just looks a little clunky to me. And Kat,

Speaker 1 they're still, Kat is trying to figure it out. They're still trying to figure it out how to get him involved all the time.
I still think they overthink it sometimes and just

Speaker 1 spam more Cat pick and pops. Just spam them all.
Just find the, if they're putting a win on him and a center on Josh Hart or a center on your center, Huck Porty's been starting a couple of games.

Speaker 1 It doesn't matter. Find whoever the smallest guy is on and have them run a pick and roll with Kat.
Have Kat run a pick and roll with them.

Speaker 1 Use some of the actions that Minnesota used to run for Kevin Love and then Cat with their, you know, the horns actions where they're screening and cutting and fake handoffs where Kevin Love and Kat would get open threes out of it.

Speaker 1 I don't, it's early. Just on notice.

Speaker 1 This was my pick to make the finals.

Speaker 1 The bench, I think, will get better. Yapuselli's gotten off too slow start.
Mitchell Robinson hasn't played. Just on notice.
That's all. They're on notice.

Speaker 4 Yeah, no, it's been a bit frustrating watching them in the way that they've kind of, we knew there'd be some growing pains with changing their offense and trying to become a little bit more democratic on offense.

Speaker 4 But I think in that process, they've lost Kat a little bit in the shuffle of how to get him opportunities and things like that. It has to be tiered, right?

Speaker 4 Like you have to make sure, yeah, you need to get Bridges' shots. You need to get OG shots.
But you definitely have to get Kat shots and touches. Like that has to be above all that.

Speaker 4 And I think that's the important thing. They need to kind kind of start figuring out and fine-tuning with what they have.
And this is this is also what happens.

Speaker 4 You, you took it, yeah, you fired your coach after getting to the conference finals. Now you're going to bring in a new coach who's going to bring in a new system.

Speaker 4 You got to start figuring it all out.

Speaker 1 Um, and the way that I don't, I'm not really excited to get cat touches is force-feeding him against bigger wings.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's a quote mismatch if Kyle Kuzma is guarding cat or Jalen Brown is guarding cat.

Speaker 1 If you operate early early in the clock and you operate quickly, you can get to a better matchup than that.

Speaker 1 If your goal is indeed to force feed cat, I just like you can find the point guard, you can find a smaller guy. You're on notice.

Speaker 1 Minnesota Timberwolves two and three, just on notice, because you change a starting five. That was a little bit of a red flag about Mike Connolly.
And Anthony Edwards is hurt.

Speaker 1 Lost to the Lakers last night on an Austin Reid's buzzer beater. What a start for Austin Reed.

Speaker 1 Pencil it in. Pencil it in.

Speaker 1 If he plays, if he has, if he averages like 25 this season, 25, he's getting the max, and he's probably going to get it from the Lakers because I think Luca and him is a nice roadmap to the future.

Speaker 1 I've already addressed that. The only reason Minnesota's on notice is because, A, I think they should be good.
And B, Gobert, no, he's good.

Speaker 1 Everyone's going to highlight the buzzer beater where he kind of half tried to blitz Reeves and didn't quite get there and got crossed up. And Reeves split it for the game-winning shot.

Speaker 1 Gobert is just like, you can't have these games where you don't even really notice him on the glass or on defense. He's only now, he opponents are only shooting 46% of the rim at the rim against him.

Speaker 1 That's an elite number. He's only challenging 4.8 shots per game.
His rebounding is way down. He's been a non-entity on offense, which, you know, that comes and goes with him.

Speaker 1 Sometimes they just don't feel like passing him the ball. Sometimes he drops it.

Speaker 1 Whatever.

Speaker 1 This Rudy Gobert, they're dead on arrival as a would-be contender in the Western Conference. So they're on notice.

Speaker 4 Yes, and I'm going to add on something else beyond the Rudy Gobert thing. Their front office is on notice.
We saw this coming in the ball handling with Tim Connolly. I mean, with

Speaker 4 Mike Connolly. We knew this was coming.

Speaker 4 Why wasn't there more preparation with everything that you had? You went and got Rob Dillingham? He's not kind of, like, everything that you've done. We knew this was coming.

Speaker 4 This was like, it's not a surprise. Connolly's old.
No offense. I'm old too.
Like, he's not where he was a few years ago. We saw him decline through the playoffs.

Speaker 4 You know, you needed another ball handler. And they just, Dante DiVincenzo is not going to be that.
You needed to go find a guy.

Speaker 4 I don't have the answer to how they could get there, but they just needed to put more effort in finding that. And I just felt like they just sort of passed it off.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 they don't have nothing to trade because they have,

Speaker 1 you know, the picks that they've swapped out already. They can still trade.
Those picks picks are just trying to be great picks.

Speaker 1 You know, they can trade swap rights on picks that haven't been swapped yet. Their money situation isn't great.
Randall's playing great, by the way. Should at least shout him out.

Speaker 1 Wouldn't surprise me if they tried to address this guard situation somewhere down the line. It's early.

Speaker 1 And Ant's injured for a little bit.

Speaker 1 You said Dillingham's not cutting it.

Speaker 1 We got to find out if he can cut it or not. He played like 15 minutes last night, just played okay.
I think it's time to give the guy a shot because you traded like a major asset to get him. And

Speaker 1 the Spurs are holding that, like, all right. You know, or now the Kings may have it, actually.
The Kings do have it.

Speaker 1 But it's time to find out. They're on notice.

Speaker 1 You want to pick an on-notice team?

Speaker 4 In a positive way.

Speaker 1 I am on.

Speaker 4 We got it.

Speaker 4 The Washington Wizards are on notice. I know they're not winning a lot of games, but damn, they're so fun.
This young team is so impressive. I'm all in.
Keyshawn George,

Speaker 4 everybody. Sarah has looked great.

Speaker 4 Last time I was on the pod with you,

Speaker 4 you told me Alexar is like almost.

Speaker 1 Mr. Almost.
Almost.

Speaker 4 Mr. Almost.
Almost gets the layup.

Speaker 4 Almost finishes the play. He's finishing plays.
Like I'm watching this stuff and I'm like,

Speaker 4 I don't care win totals for this team.

Speaker 4 But the the fact is there is an upward trajectory in terms of the like what you're seeing from these guys develop and george taking that massively coming in as a rookie didn't shoot the ball well you know comes in this year he's shooting it's not going to last it's 50 above 50 from the field above 50 from the three i know that's not a number that's going to stay but like it's been massively impressive in the way that they've kind of put together they have this young core of guys you know and then we have trey johnson as well like you have all of these guys.

Speaker 4 Like, you're, you're, there's a lot of stuff to like about what you're doing. And then the Bets are producing for them.
C.J. McCollum's been really good for them.

Speaker 4 Chris Middleton has been good for them. And just sort of the presence of being the adult in the room.
Like, I'm excited for the Washington Wizards, Zach.

Speaker 4 I don't know when the last time was I could be able to say that, but like, I'm excited. Like, I'm four o'clock here at West Coast.
I'm trying to find out when the Wizards, you know,

Speaker 4 where I'm watching the Wizards.

Speaker 1 Wizards are very fun to watch.

Speaker 1 A.J. Johnson has not played hardly at all, and he's an interesting prospect.
Bilal Kulubali has missed the entire season. He'll start.
It'll be interesting to see when he comes back.

Speaker 1 I would guess they want to start him and bring one of McCollum or Middleton off the bench.

Speaker 1 But those guys have been steadiers for the Wiz.

Speaker 1 Keyshawn George,

Speaker 1 nothing short of a revelation earlier in the season. 20 points, 5 assists.

Speaker 1 Elite defense on and off the ball. Elite.

Speaker 1 And the D stat,

Speaker 1 he ran nine pick and rolls per 100 possessions last season, according to tracking data. 28 this season, often functioning as point guard, point forward, point keys on.
Efficiency numbers are great.

Speaker 1 He may be, this may be a little over his skis for what, how much ball handling he should do on a good team. I mean, the Wizards have won one game.

Speaker 1 They play the Thunder tonight, so you could probably pencil in a one and four record for them.

Speaker 1 I mean, Washington winning in Oklahoma City would be one of the biggest upsets possible in the NBA regular season.

Speaker 1 Maybe they'll win. Maybe they'll do it.

Speaker 1 But, you know, I said before the season, keep an eye on Keyshawn George. I think he's a good 3 ND guy.

Speaker 1 I think I said his ceiling is probably a good 3nd D guy. He can do a little bit off the ball.
It's up the ceiling. I was wrong.
I underestimated what he could do on the ball.

Speaker 1 And Sar 20 and 8 is rebounding better. Four and a half assists a game.
55% shooting, 36% on threes. Dude looks like a real player.

Speaker 1 They got something going on in Washington. I'm going to shout out.
I'm going to keep it positive. I got a couple more negatives.
I'm going to keep it positive.

Speaker 1 I'm going to shout out to Utah Jazz

Speaker 1 who are 2-2.

Speaker 1 They beat the Kings and the Suns. So

Speaker 1 lost at the end of the Blazers last night.

Speaker 1 Fifth best offense in the entire NBA.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 It's interesting. Take a ton of threes.
Lowry Markinen.

Speaker 1 Lowry Markinen, one of the most fun players for basketball nerds to watch because the amount of variety in his offball game is so astonishing that sometimes he fools his own teammates.

Speaker 1 They pass it to places where they think he's going to be, and he has made what is probably the correct read, but one they didn't expect. He'll shoot.
If someone shoots the gap,

Speaker 1 he'll abort his cut, flare out for an open three. You switch on him on a middle pick and roll, he'll pin you to his top side, roll to the rim.
He suddenly becomes a rim runner.

Speaker 1 He's coming off pin downs in one corner, setting setting a screen, and then taking it. He is bewildering to try to track.
He's shooting the hell out of it.

Speaker 1 And in my most irrational moments, Mo Takil, I watch the jazz and I'm like, maybe they shouldn't trade Lowry Marketing. This is so fun.
He's averaging 34 a game.

Speaker 1 He's averaging between him and Kessler. This isn't going to sound like much,

Speaker 1 but for them, given given their career numbers, it's a lot.

Speaker 1 They're getting almost seven dimes per game out of their starting powerful, well, whatever Lowry Markinan is starting next to Flip and Kessler.

Speaker 1 That's a lot of assists for those guys in terms of their career numbers. Both of them are playing off the charts great.
And Keontae George

Speaker 1 looks like a totally different player.

Speaker 1 22 a game, nine assists. His turnovers are up.
I don't even care. Decision making, the amount of control he has of his dribble, of the offense.

Speaker 1 He's always had these passes where you would be like, wow, he saw that pass and he could make it lefty across the court on the money.

Speaker 1 But he's slowing down, getting guys in his hip pocket like Chris Paul, reading the defense and bam, la, bam, corner pass. Just looks like a totally different player.
Defensively,

Speaker 1 I mean, he was so out of sorts in his first two years. He didn't know where to be, when to be.
He was running around like a chicken with its head cut off, to use a cliche.

Speaker 1 They were like, they played the Suns the other day. They're like, you're going to guard Devin Booker.
Get around screens, use your length, be alert off the ball. And he was totally up to it.

Speaker 1 He looks like they read him the riot act after the season last year in his exit meeting. He's talked about this in some of the post-game stuff.
Totally different player.

Speaker 1 They're a really fun team to watch. I don't know what they're going to get off their bench every game here and there, but they're fun to watch.

Speaker 4 They're very fun to watch. And just go look at the game last night against Portland.
Portland was in control for most of that game. They came back down the stretch and almost pulled that one off.

Speaker 4 I mean, they had one of the improbable missed the free throw ball, gets kicked out, and then they just missed a three to win the game.

Speaker 1 There were two of them last night. Neesmith got a perfect one for Indiana, too.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 It just, it was impressive watching how they kind of continue to fight in that regard. And shout out to Will Hardy, you know, constantly getting extended.
I worked with him when I was with the Spurs.

Speaker 4 It was, you know, a lot of, it's fun to watch him kind of go through all this stuff. He kept his timeouts till really late, advancing the ball, making smart moves with everything that they had.

Speaker 4 It's just fun to watch. But to go back to your Keontae George thing, you know, the Jazz are averaging 30 assists.
He's averaging a third of them. He's averaging nine.

Speaker 4 I'm cheating a little bit, but he's averaging nine assists a game. Like, yeah, his turnover numbers are going to be up.
Okay, fine. That's when he's going to give you nine assists.
I'll take it.

Speaker 4 I'll take that from a young guard working his way through the NBA, especially like you said, being read the right act and kind of getting his stuff together.

Speaker 4 And his three-point shooting, he's averaging 22 points and it's not knocking down threes. Like, that's really kind of the other thing that's sort of impressive.

Speaker 4 He's getting to the line eight and a half times a game. Like, those are the things that, excuse me, eight and a half times.
Sorry, I thought I read the wrong number.

Speaker 4 But he's getting there over and over again. Like, it's just impressive watching him kind of grow as a player.
This is just a fun team to watch right now.

Speaker 1 If Marketen, let's just say Marketen stabilizes at 28 a game, 28, 8, and 4, or 28, 8, and 3 on this kind of shooting, almost this kind of shooting. His shooting is not like outrageous so far.

Speaker 1 They are going to face a crossroads moment with him because some team, and we've done the fake Lowry Marketing,

Speaker 1 is going to say, okay, we've seen enough between Eurobasket and this. All-star Marketen is back.

Speaker 1 Still right in his prime. Contracts a lot for the next four years, but he's lived up to that contract.
Here's a real, almost mega offer, if not mega offer. What do you want to do?

Speaker 1 And then we'll learn what the Jazz really want to do with this roster and this team going forward.

Speaker 1 If George continues to play like this, at the very least, while Ace Bailey develops into whatever he is, and he's battled the flu and has been, you know, up and down as rookies are,

Speaker 1 at least they can point to George and say, in all our swings on the perimeter, and we swung for Cody Williams, we swung for Walter Clayton Jr., who I really like. We swung for Ace Bailey.

Speaker 1 We swung for Taylor Hendrix as a 3.5 of a wing. I can play some four.
I like him too. But at least Keontae George looks like a guy.
And by the way, Isaiah Collier is going to come back at some point.

Speaker 1 I think he's lost that starting spot unless you want to start both of them together. Which, you know what? If Sve, Mihailuke, is your starting two card, maybe you do start both of them together.

Speaker 1 Sve, by the way,

Speaker 1 underrated theater of watching the jazz.

Speaker 1 That dude just wants to get him up, man. And just if he touches the ball, it is going up.
He does not care who's near him. He does not care if a defender is draped all over him.

Speaker 1 That thing is going up. But yeah, at least they can point to him and to George rather and say, this is a guy, a perimeter guy.

Speaker 1 Flip is solid. And Kessler, 17 a game, five and a half rebounds.
He's making his threes.

Speaker 1 And defensively, he's a beast. He looks like they.

Speaker 1 They're going to face a Lowry crossroads. It's going to be really, really fun to see how they approach it.

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 1 Okay,

Speaker 1 I'm going to shout out another team. This is a quick shout-outs.
Quick shout-outs on the happy side.

Speaker 1 You watch the Houston Rockets play. You're like, man, they have no spacing.
Everything is a fucking slog. Joshua Kogie starting.

Speaker 1 Did I just watch a Shengun, Joshua Kogie inverted pick and roll because they have to have Shangun act as a ball handler and a floor spacer now because they have so little spacing?

Speaker 1 Man, oh my God, they're huge, but they can't shoot. Who has the number one offense in the entire NBA? The Houston freaking Rockets, proving that you can do it in a lot of different ways.

Speaker 1 And if you're big enough and you're mean enough, and you have Ahmed Thompson and Kevin Durant and Alperyn Shangoon and Stephen freaking Adams getting every offensive rebound, you can live at the foul line.

Speaker 1 You can get second, third, fourth possessions, and you can build an elite offense despite taking like no threes, having no no traditional point guard other than Reed Shepard coming off the bench, who's been just okay.

Speaker 1 A little bit of a turnstile on defense, just okay on offense. They are,

Speaker 1 I feel like I'm watching like a scientific experiment every time I watch them. With Shangoon and Adams on the floor together, they're plus 37 in 70 minutes.
This continues to be.

Speaker 1 The greatest accidental discovery in recent basketball history. Stephen Adams cannot be kept off the offensive glass.
You know what their offensive rebounding rate is with those two guys on the floor?

Speaker 1 47%.

Speaker 1 If they shoot and miss, there's a 50-50 chance they're getting it back.

Speaker 1 There was a possession last night in Toronto, who's on notice, by the way, on the bad side, where they got two or three offensive rebounds in a row.

Speaker 1 And on the second one, Scotty Barnes under the rim, trying to box out, I think, Adams, mid-possession, seeing that the Rockets were going to get the ball back, just slumped his shoulders and kind of like stopped playing for a minute because it's so goddamn demoralizing to play against this big, nasty, physical team.

Speaker 1 And I just want to shout out a guy I've always liked as a winning player. I think he's playing well.
I think he's making a little bit of a progress as a ball handler. Give me Jabari Smith Jr.

Speaker 1 I've got all the stock. I'll take all the stock.
Is he as good as Paolo? No. Chet, no.
Is he going to be a good role player on a championship team, level team for a long time? Absolutely.

Speaker 1 This team is like bizarro world.

Speaker 4 It's absurd, but it's so much fun. Just the fact that, yeah, they're going to get more shot attempts than you because they're going to get the offensive prebound.
It just doesn't matter, right?

Speaker 4 50-50 chance with Shengun and Adams on the floor is absolutely absurd. Another guy I want to shout out, Tari Eason's been really good for them.
He's been really good, you know, coming out.

Speaker 4 Like, this is a lot of these young guys are developing in a way where you're pretty excited. Again, the three-point numbers will kind of come down a little bit.

Speaker 4 I doubt he shoots 53% for the whole year. But if it comes down to like 40%, that's great for them.
That's all the more positive stuff in that regard.

Speaker 4 And you're right, they don't take a lot of threes, but they make the ones they take as a team shooting around 40%. Like they're in a good position with where they're at.

Speaker 4 And again, they don't have to worry. If they're going to get the offensive rebounds back, it's just absurd.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they're second in free throw rate and first in offensive rebounding. They also were, I think our video team is going to clip this and put it on Instagram, so apologies in advance.

Speaker 1 Did you see their game against the Nets the other day at all?

Speaker 4 No.

Speaker 1 Noah Clowney, I think late in the first quarter, produced maybe the grossest highlight I've ever seen in an NBA game, non-injury division.

Speaker 1 He dove for a loose ball, face planted on the hardwood, which, you know, unpleasant. You get some floorburns.
His nose hit the ground. The amount of snot that poured out of his nose,

Speaker 1 as shown multiple times by the Rockets broadcast in a slow-motion replay, literally left the Rockets play-by-play guy, Craig Ackerman and Ryan Hollins, speechless. They did not know how to react.

Speaker 1 They did not know if they should make a joke. And Craig Ackerman was like, oh, oh, oh, boy.
Oh, boy.

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 1 he might need some tissue or something. I mean, it was like...

Speaker 1 Absolutely disgusting. Shout out Noah Clowney and the 0-5 Brooklyn Nets.
I mentioned Toronto. It's early.
Jakob Pertle missed last night's game.

Speaker 1 13th in offense is actually okay for them. They would sign up for that in a heartbeat.
Ingram's been good. Barnes has been pretty good.
Quickly has been wildly up and down.

Speaker 1 The shooting guard turnstile continues to just land in random places on random nights. CMB got some real tick last night at center.
By the way,

Speaker 1 I can't co-sign the CMB nickname. You know why, Mo?

Speaker 1 Why is that? Because I went to college in New England in the late 90s, and the amount of obsession over the Dave Matthews band and DMB and Dave, Dave, you guys go and see Dave.

Speaker 1 Dave's in Boston.

Speaker 1 Anyone go and see Dave on the Vineyard? I'm scarred.

Speaker 1 You know, their defense is just, it's helter-skelter, but leading to nowhere. And

Speaker 1 the teams are torching them on jump shots. Maybe that'll change.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 It's been a weird team. I still think they're one and three.

Speaker 1 They're better than that, but it's been a discouraging start. And at the end here,

Speaker 1 I should have put Oscar back on for this.

Speaker 1 The Hawks,

Speaker 1 two and three.

Speaker 1 That's fine. Growing pains.
They've had a bunch of guys miss games. You can see them just struggling to find cohesion on both ends of the floor.
Reese Shea has not gotten going at all yet.

Speaker 1 Trey was off to a slow start. We should at least, I was hoping by the end of this segment, we'd get the results of Trey Young's MRI.
We don't have them yet.

Speaker 1 Quinn Snyder said after the game last night in Brooklyn that it was not an ACL injury, so at least they appear to know that.

Speaker 1 If it's a knee sprain, like an MCL sprain, they announce it as a knee sprain. It could be five games, 10 games, 20 games.

Speaker 1 This could be the rubber meets the road moment for the Hawks and Trey Young because they don't really have a traditional backup point guard. Keaton Wallace has been masquerading as one.
V.

Speaker 1 Crachy does every once in a while. He's out of the rotation.
They can do it by committee with Jalen Johnson handling Nikhil Alexander Walker and Luke Kennard playing together.

Speaker 1 You know, they have guys who can facilitate. Porzingis has looked good when he's played, not as a facilitator, but just if having a pick and pop guy makes everyone's life a little easier.

Speaker 1 My thing with Trey and why I was pro the Hawks making him a fair extension offer.

Speaker 1 I think I landed at like four years, 180, well south of the max that he surely wants,

Speaker 1 is

Speaker 1 I think the Hawks are pretty good now, despite their current kind of sluggish start. They're pretty well set up for later.
I don't see why they can't have their cake and eat it too.

Speaker 1 And if you just take Trey Young off their team, obviously you'd have some cap room or cap flexibility one way or another with an exception to replace him with a different kind of ball handler.

Speaker 1 I just don't know what the identity of the team is without him.

Speaker 1 They don't get to just replace him mid-season with a league, let's say a league average point guard, like you'd bring in Dennis Schroeder or something. They don't get to do that.

Speaker 1 That's not how it works. But they're going to get to learn now, Okay, he's totally gone for X amount of games.
What do we look like? If we look better than expected,

Speaker 1 defensively, they will look better than expected. I think Trey's defense early has been worse than it was last year when he perked up a little bit.

Speaker 1 If they'd look better than expected, I think maybe does that impact their decision making on Trey Young?

Speaker 1 If they look way worse than expected offensively, because they are always way worse with him off the floor, does that impact their decision making?

Speaker 1 This is like a kind of a big learning moment for them.

Speaker 1 Very bad, if he's out for any extended period of time, very bad for their hopes of getting a top four, top six seed, which I was optimistic about, but an interesting sort of franchise moment, at least.

Speaker 4 I mean,

Speaker 4 this is the time where you're going to find out, right? Like everything you said, this all lines up where, okay, we'll find out what we are without Trey, and this is what we'll lean on.

Speaker 4 Also, Trey's going to find out what they are. I should say more importantly, Trey's agent's going to find out more.
what they are if they don't have Trey.

Speaker 4 And if they look bad in this instance, they're not able to generate enough offense.

Speaker 4 they're not able to kind of create a lot of stuff it kind of changes the situation for him in that sense where they get to kind of come in going like you need him you can't you can't you can't let him walk and i think that's going to be the interesting sort of situation we come to with this i'm happy it's not an acl i'm i'm i'm it would suck for them in that sense

Speaker 4 even cobbling together the point guard by committee stuff, none of them will be able to create what Trey does for them offensively. He's killed him defensively.
He's been, like, I agree with you.

Speaker 4 He's been atrocious defensively this year. But they can't make up what he can do offensively.
And then it's been tough for them where, you know, Porzingis has been in and out.

Speaker 4 You know, like you're struggling with that stuff. You had Jalen Johnson go get hurt a little bit early in the season and miss a game or two.

Speaker 4 Like you're already kind of battling that stuff on top of this. It puts them in a really tough position as, you know, for this season.

Speaker 4 Forget about even just planning ahead just this season of how high we all were when they were going all in. They just got, they just have the golden ticket, though.

Speaker 4 They got one golden ticket for next year in the draft.

Speaker 1 Okay, don't even get me started.

Speaker 1 Actually,

Speaker 1 get me started. Get Oscar started.

Speaker 4 You got it on.

Speaker 1 Okay, first of all,

Speaker 1 it's interesting because it's one thing

Speaker 1 how your offense looks when Trey is off the floor, when your team is relatively healthy, and those are 16 minutes a game every night that you have other bench players in the game or you know he goes out in the middle of the game you haven't been able to plan for it now they can plan for it how do we redesign our rotation without trey young how do we redesign our offense without trey young does jalen johnson run more pick and rolls whatever like do we do we start who do we start do we start alexander walker do we start who knows um jalen johnson screening with porzinga spacing is interesting now they can at least plan for it and maybe the sort of hit is a little less drastic than the numbers the on-off numbers would suggest it but to your point

Speaker 1 i don't know what the final score was last night in the Pelicans-Denver game. It was a lot too little.

Speaker 1 122 to 88.

Speaker 1 The Pelicans are 0-4.

Speaker 1 They started in an NBA game in 2025, late 2025, they started DeAndre Jordan.

Speaker 1 They started Jeremiah Fierce, who's been good, but brought Jordan Poole off the bench.

Speaker 1 That trade was so inexplicable when it happened. We all land-based it.
It's such a disaster. They're 0-4.

Speaker 1 The West is what it is. They were a likely lottery team before the season.

Speaker 1 Atlanta, now Atlanta, the flip side of it is Milwaukee looks like they're going to be solid. And so Atlanta's dream was Milwaukee falls apart.
New Orleans falls apart.

Speaker 1 We got two bites at the lottery apple. They may only end up with one, but it might be an even better one than they thought.
And this draft, it's not just the top three guys.

Speaker 1 People are starting to talk about guys four, five, six in this draft. This is

Speaker 1 it's early. It's early, right? Like, Zion has only been like decent by Zion Sanders.
Maybe they'll get better. Maybe they'll get healthier.

Speaker 1 Maybe the center position will sort itself out when Looney comes back. This has the potential.
This trade, this one transaction,

Speaker 1 forget the pool McCollum one, which I didn't get at all when it happened. This one transaction has

Speaker 1 franchise ruination potential for like a half decade if it goes bad. Not quite Brooklyn, Boston, because that was so many picks and so many swaps and Tatum and Brown.

Speaker 1 But you can't be New Orleans with a team that's not good, with the number one pick superstar who's never healthy.

Speaker 1 And frankly, when he's played the last two years, has not looked like the guy he was when he was stampeding against the Lakers in the play-in game

Speaker 1 and give up a pick that ends up in the top five of this draft. You just cannot do it.

Speaker 1 And it's early, but boy, oh, boy, they look bad.

Speaker 4 Normally it's early works in their favor. Like, it usually helps them that it's early and that they look a little bit better early on.
Zion's explosive early on. All that stuff.

Speaker 4 I want to ask you this. I don't know if you've seen it.
Have you seen the lineup data, two-man lineup data? You want to guess the net rating? With Zion and Jordan Poole on the floor together.

Speaker 4 It's been 59 minutes. I know small sample size, but 59 minutes.

Speaker 1 I'm going to say offensive rating 111, defensive rating 135.

Speaker 4 Okay, no.

Speaker 4 Offensive rating 93.4.

Speaker 1 Okay, that's not good.

Speaker 4 And defensive rating 109.

Speaker 1 Okay,

Speaker 1 that's good. That's defense.
Defense good defense.

Speaker 4 But you would expect the offense to be good. It's a net rating of minus 15.6.

Speaker 4 Like, the whole pool thing was one thing.

Speaker 1 The pick, like, you, I don't need to add on to it you laid it out like that's gonna really set them back for an incredible that has the potential to really be a franchise breaker over for a very very long time derrick queen has looked pretty good so far uh better than i expected he would look in the first five or six games he has got to be so goddamn good to justify the pain the downside pain of this potentially and he looks fine he looks fine it's just unfair to him i just feel like they've hung this

Speaker 4 albatross on him in a way like he can't live up to it if it's the second pick in the draft. And that's not a shot at him.
It's just

Speaker 4 an extremely difficult situation to be in. Like, they've just put him in such a terrible position.
And I, Zach, I just have such a hard time.

Speaker 4 I feel so bad for New Orleans, the Pelicans, all those guys. You know, it's just.

Speaker 4 How do you get excited about this team? Like the future for this team, even?

Speaker 1 It's not a great situation. All All right, Mo Takil, where can we find you? Double Dribble podcast with Jared Dubin.
What else do you want to promote?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I'm doing videos for offside. We're going to have an app coming out soon.
Check us out, the social media at join offside or the website offside.gg.

Speaker 4 Also, I'm going to be doing some stuff with NBA TV on the weekends. Over, check out the association.
I'm not on this weekend, but I'm on next weekend. So you'll find me all over the place there.

Speaker 4 And like you said, check out the Double Dribble podcast with Jared and I.

Speaker 1 Mo, thank you, sir. We will have you back soon, as always.
Good luck to your Los Angeles Dodgers,

Speaker 1 the little poor underdogs, the little engine that could. I got hope, Zach.

Speaker 4 Everybody's against us. I got hope.
I got hope. We're going to pull it off.

Speaker 1 All right. I'll see you, Moe.
Thank you, sir.

Speaker 1 All right. That's it for another edition of the Zach Lowe Show.
Thank you to Chris Ryan, giddy as he is about his Sixers. Thanks to Mo DeKiel, talking all things NBA.

Speaker 1 Thanks to Jesse, Jonathan, and Mike on production. Thanks to you all for watching and listening wherever you you get your podcast.
A couple of news and notes since we recorded this morning.

Speaker 1 Sam Presti announced that Nikola Topich, who had an operation, a testicular operation a couple weeks ago, has been diagnosed with testicular cancer.

Speaker 1 Hopefully that all goes well. Sam seemed pretty hopeful and said that Topich is in the right place to really battle this and he's going to undergo chemotherapy and he is undergoing chemotherapy.

Speaker 1 Obviously, we're all... Thinking about Nikola Topich and hoping for a quick and good recovery.
Trey Young news has not been out yet that MRI results will presumably come in shortly.

Speaker 1 Anthony Davis had a leg injury last night. We haven't heard anything about that.

Speaker 1 And we mentioned the Pelicans and that Hawks trade earlier in the podcast with Mo. Pelicans next two games.
They play the Clippers on Friday and the Thunder on Sunday.

Speaker 1 You got to start wondering about Willie Green if they're 0-6 and the pressure that they're under after making that trade to be a competitive team. We shall see what happens.

Speaker 1 A lot will happen over the weekend. The NBA Cup starts.
We will be here on Monday on the Zach Lowe Show to talk about all of it. Thanks again to you all for listening.
We'll see you next week.

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