More With Ryan Murphy

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this is gavin newsom

and our conversation with ryan murphy continues

What uh, you mentioned Ted, Netflix.

I mean, so whole whole streaming thing.

But now it's interesting, you're kind of back a little bit, this sort of Disney Hulu FX

thing.

I mean, where's you said Hollywood's going younger?

I mean, is that a time of life or is that a state of mind?

What do you mean younger?

It's always, isn't it been a youth?

I mean,

what's your journey here since 89?

I mean, where are we in terms?

We'll get into tax credits, competitiveness in a minute, but I'm just curious, just what you meant by youth and younger people, what streaming means to you?

What's sort of, what's the state of play from that perspective?

Because you've seen every damn side of this.

You've been part of every side of this.

It's interesting because, you know, I've kind of been at this now since 1998 was my first show.

Popular.

Yeah.

It was a very cult show.

It ran two years.

Leslie Bibb, who was on White Lotus, was one of her first starring roles.

Interesting.

So I've been through a lot of different changes, you know, like that

2000 to

2013 14 was very like prestige push-it as much sex and blood and gore and and you know it was like the it was like the the period of the of the white male anti-hero you know if you look at it the sopranos madmen these were the things that were very popular yeah

and then i think there's the obama section that sort of started 2012 that went through 2017.

And that's, I think, you know, more

female programming, more progressive programming.

Glee certainly falls into that.

Right.

American Horror Story certainly falls into that.

The Normal Heart, which I did.

And now, and then what happened was there was the streaming wars began, you know.

Right.

That really started in 2016.

And were you anxious at the time about that?

You're like, this is the end of the world.

No, it was the best thing that ever happened to me.

Yeah, well, for you personally.

Well, I think for everybody.

Because what happened was, you know, literally production doubled overnight.

And there was a lot of new young voices that were able to get things made.

For example, you know, I did Pose during that time.

That never would have been on the air five years before then or even now, I don't think.

Interesting.

But then what happened was COVID and

the strikes.

And now it's...

really hard for young people to,

I think, get things on the air.

It's really hard for different points of view.

I think we're in almost like a Victorian age, which is a, it's a reaction to COVID and perhaps the two Trump presidencies where

I'm finding it very interesting.

Like what you're saying is people don't want anything too pushed.

They're freaked out enough about their lives.

So

also Gen Z is very pearl-clutching.

They're much more like sort of, they don't like a lot of things that are in their face.

They don't date as much.

They don't

socialize as much.

Crazy.

And they don't, you know, it's a very cautious generation.

So, but, you know, the state of the business is really, really bad right now.

And I'm lucky in that I,

you know, I went back with my

great friend Dana Walden.

And, but I really never left because I was doing all my shows.

You know, that was part of my deal.

I was lucky.

I kind of had, I got to keep my legacy shows and go try new things at Netflix.

Right.

So I went back to

Disney, Fox, and then I continue my monster show.

So I kind of respect everybody, but you know, I'm really excited.

It always takes me a while within a while with a new deal to figure out what I'm going to do.

But I think the stuff that I have coming up is like very four-quadrant, very mainstream.

Interesting.

And I'm doing what I've never done before, where I go through every minute of the show, and I'm like, how do I make this for everybody?

How do I not, you know, alienate people?

And I mean, so

the

pearl clutching, Victorian,

is this sort of the anti-woke pushback?

Is it the sort of anti-DEI you've been, you know, LGBTQ?

What, I mean, what, is it just, is it in that space that you're referring to?

No.

Is it a test?

I just think it's cultural taste.

Like, for example, without naming the show, a friend of mine.

does his show and it started off and it got really great reviews.

And in the first,

you you know, they did a test of it in the first 15 minutes of the show.

It's a PG-rated comedy.

There was a very sexualized situation where you saw nothing, but it was hinted at, and the dials went,

and they lost 20% of the audience

in 30 seconds because of a joke.

Like, that never used to happen.

And I just think that it's culturally people are,

I don't know.

Again,

I say that, but again, I think people want their comedies and their dramas soft, but they also like their true crime shows.

Clearly.

Like they want to be able to pick, okay, this is my mood and this is my level of anxiety, which is, there's not a lot of blending of genres, which I think used to happen more.

Interesting.

And I do think, you know, young people are not as

there's always the reaction, you know?

I came up of age right after the, you know, the Reagan years.

So that was the period of Madonna if you look when I was a kid she was so popular I think because she was tapping into rebellion yeah yeah now the rebellion is how do you rebel you become quieter and you're like you're it's this it's a softer interesting

more more emotional introverted group of people but I do think there's also a big changing of the guard right now you know like

there's young voices fighting to get stuff on and I think it used to be 10 of them would but now one of them will

But that one could be,

you know, a Spielberg who could completely change the game and people will follow that person.

I can feel that.

I can feel a lot of young people chomping and I feel culturally things are shifting.

You

get another 20 years of this in you?

That's interesting.

You know what?

Probably, yeah.

I love that.

I really, I always, I was talking about like, I have a farm.

Yeah.

And I've state New York.

I've always seen you as a farm guy.

Well, I'm from Indiana, so you.

Oh, I know you're an Indiana guy.

I grew up in the back of a, like, I shucked corn.

Like, I, I.

I know.

I mean, we found out, I mean, you're an athlete.

So that's most important.

You didn't know that, did you?

No, I was like, you're Mr.

Choir guy.

Jeez.

Yeah, I don't know.

So I'm like, do I just do I hang it up and make sure you're not going to be, you couldn't even handle that.

You couldn't hang it out.

You're not going to be on a farm all day.

Well, I love going there.

I understand that, but every day, seriously.

No, but you're right.

I probably can't because I like, you know, I like show business and I like, like I like creation.

It's like I like the making of new things and I like putting people together and I love I love my job.

And, you know, my great idol, Norman Lear,

he worked, I mean, he worked until his late 90s, which is an amazing thing.

It is incredible.

I think he probably worked three or four hours a day, but what are three or four hours, you know?

But the thing about Norman that I marveled at was he was eternally curious and young people.

Love that.

He sought me out when I had my first big hit.

And I got

just to pick your brain, just to get to know you?

I got a call out of the blue.

Yeah.

And it was from Norman Lear.

And I'm like, this is not Norman Lear because, you know, I grew up watching,

you know, I was six when All in the Family came out, but I grew up with that show.

Yeah.

And I was like, this is no way he's calling me.

And I picked up the phone.

I was like, who is this really?

And he goes, hey, kid, I hear you're the new me.

And I was like, wow, really and then i had dinner with him and he would give me great advice and the thing i love the most about him is he would call during disappointments like he called me when the new normal was canceled nice and he was like every every failure is i think he said like something like every failure is a new open door you can walk through love it best the best and i recently at auction i bought one of um norman's ed reche paintings and the painting simply says truth.

Yeah.

And so I like, I like, you know, the Menendez of it all.

I like talking about my points of view and things that are truthful to me.

I love that.

And I'm like, why would I stop?

If I can keep my health, you know?

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What is the state of play out here?

I mean, we did, we doubled, we more than doubled the film tax credit.

We needed to do that.

Seems the industry is on life support out here.

The world we invented is competing against us globally, not just other states, which I think we fully don't, a lot of us don't fully appreciate what's happening overseas

in particular.

What more do we need to do?

A lot more, I know, tax credit's still not sufficient.

But what's your sense of

where Hollywood, broadly described or defined, will be in a decade if

what doesn't happen?

Well, you know, another changing of the guard.

to answer that question is, you know, Hollywood used to be Hollywood.

You know, it was a dream place.

Not that it isn't now, but Hollywood, for the most part, is without exception a tech business.

And it is thus much more of a bottom line business.

There's no, there's, there's no more of that sort of, you scratch, you know, you can have two bombs, but if you give me a hit, we're good.

Like it's that, that's over.

So it is a tech controlled

landscape.

Many good things have come of that, I think.

But I'll tell you a story: like, I make between six and eight things a year.

And I was walking through.

I'm proving it's not once a quarter, but anyway, I'll go back to that.

There's such bullshit.

But some of these I don't run.

I guess once a quarter, I could say my new things that are not a sound.

I'm on you.

And I was walking some of the lots to look for stage space.

And I was astonished at how is crickets

like 80% vacancies.

People that I have grown up with who run these lots walking out with tears in their eyes, please come here.

And I think the problem is,

you know, if you're

wanting to shoot in California and there's five other states that will give you

better tax credits and there's only one, so we're one and a half.

Well, okay, but for a while we were five.

I agree.

And I used to be, you know, and I'm very lucky in that I have enough clout where I could say, no, I'm shooting this here.

Right.

Like, I will, I'm shooting this here.

Yeah.

So, you know, the thing that I've also been astonished with that's a new feeling, like, I was directing All's Fair recently, my Kim show, and I had so many, this is right after the fires, and I had so many crew members come up with tears in their eyes thanking me for staying in California.

Because the problem is so many people have left.

And

what has happened is they leave their families.

And

I know three people on my cruise who are currently going through divorces because their families were broken up and they had to leave for work.

And also,

it's very, very difficult because you think of like generationally,

it's very easy for people in their 20s and 30s to pick up and go to Georgia.

Of course.

But if you're in your 40s, 50s, 60s, we're losing a whole generation of talent that cannot do that.

So they cannot go to where the work is.

So I find it.

heartbreaking and I do admire and commend you for what you have done,

which is great.

But I i think that the more we could do because it's

you know hollywood is more than just a state of mind it's a california legacy 100

you know it really is and it's it's a worldwide legacy and i and i think you and i before this were talking about san francisco like two years ago I remember having a conversation with you saying, what the hell is happening with San Francisco?

But in a recent trip, it's astonishing at how things can turn around and how

that's like AI money, I think, and a lot of tech stuff.

But

I have great hope and I commend you, but I say keep fighting the good fight because we need you.

This town needs you to do more.

And

what I'm seeing is it's just not individuals, it's families that are depending upon it.

Like that's the thing that I never really put two and two together.

Like, if you're a young family and dad or mom has to leave for four months five months what do you do that's that's really difficult morally spiritually so

anything we can do to increase reasons why tech companies have a reason to say okay we'll keep that show here that's right um

and i i'm very lucky this fall like i have two things shooting and i demanded that they both shoot here now you're talking keeping keeping you know people together and keeping my crews together that's a very

and i'm thinking about that that more and more and more and because of the work that you've done it's become easier for me no good but you know there's different things about the incentives that are very hard too like out of boundary like you know stuff like that that we should take out it's hard no and the lottery system is also right which we're fixing and we've we fixed I mean so we went from 330 million dollars 750 million and so the key was in a challenging sort of environment, political environment, to at least lock that in.

Now we can start to

how within that framework, we can be more competitive and make the adjustments.

We've made a few, but we've got more that obviously need to be done in that space.

But I mean, I really admire what you're doing.

I don't know any politician that I've met in my lifetime who's gone through so much adversity from, I mean, everything from...

Not much has happened in the last six years.

What are you talking about, Ryan?

What are you talking about?

I mean, I admire what you've done.

And I know that you, like, you've also inherited many messes.

God bless you.

So I acknowledge your work and I say keep doing it because people,

people are so appreciative for what you recently have done.

And I, anything else you could do, I'm here as an advocate for my company town, but I think how you've turned things around in many areas is commendable.

You're my long-term friend and I say keep doing it.

I appreciate it.

Keep helping us.

I appreciate it.

Before I let you go, before I let you go back to your kids or your farm.

My farm.

Okay.

Let's stress test that.

what i mean what what's what are the little scribbles on your little notepad that little you know the thing that's like you're looking four years from now you're like oh you just wait i've got a project i've got so i know you can't say anything but is it like a oh yeah i can say oh you good what do you got bring it on then well you know it's interesting because um my life is

I'm already working like I don't even know if I'm here in this room because I'm like working a year ahead, right?

It was funny.

I heard an interview with Taylor Swift where she said the same thing.

I was like, oh, I really relate to this.

I'm already planning my releases for 2027.

27.

2027.

And we just talked about JFK Junior.

That comes out

26.

So I'm really sort of plotting.

Wow.

And I have two goals, to be honest.

One of which is to keep as many of my shows in California as possible, which is why I'm glad to be here today.

Well done.

And I want to do a

vampire show,

which I've never done.

Vampire.

She did a little sci-fi.

Now we're on vampires.

I mean, I've had vampires in my work, like, you know, American Horror Story Lady Gaga famously played one.

I want to do that, and I want to do

a movie about faith.

I'm working on my one of my great friends is Dee Dee Gardner, who runs Plan B, Brad Pitt's Company.

And she and I are working on a faith-based movie that kind of puts me in touch with my altar boy days.

Look at that.

Which people would never think of me

doing.

But I want to do, like you said,

I want to do something optimistic and

about perseverance and forgiveness.

And so I'm working on those things.

I mean, vampires and, you know, religion.

Vampires and faith.

It was obviously.

Well, that's the secret of my career.

Do the opposite of what you just did.

That's always what I've done.

And if you look at my year rollout, it's everything is the opposite of the thing that came before it, you know.

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Be honest, how many tabs do you have open right now?

Too many?

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Every week, we scour the internet to bring you deep dives that explain how the digital world connects and divides us all.

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What are the big sports ones you're going to do?

You know, I just did one.

I did the Aaron Hernandez story, which was an American sports story.

Forgive me for kidding.

Of course.

Come on, we're going to do it.

But of course, it'd be Aaron Hernandez.

Of course.

I don't know that I'll be

like if you ask me.

You're talking big game about your sports.

I mean, I'm just trying trying to well connect your

story my my sports thing is my oldest child who is 12 is wants to be Tom Brady right he's a big of course he's 12 number 12 yeah he's a big footballer so

yeah you see you got Giselle and Brady in your back of your mind of course you do that's right that's what I'm doing

I'm not surprised do you know him I mean yeah I met him a few times he seems really cool see I mean he's too perfect so I'm kind of living my sports I'm starting to read his blog every week now he's got a new blog Tom Brady every Monday fantastic was it like health like everything he does is fantastic it's upsetting actually in a certain what do you mean no it's just a really well researched and written blog he does every week which is motivating it's contemporary um it's about health it's about relationships his relationship to what he's doing uh it's fresh it's very thoughtful yeah it's excellent it's like it's just interesting do you use his products i haven't it's interesting i've started to notice a few of them started to get promoted so like

your life as this is my last question for you, as high pressured as you are, and like, what is your secret for keeping it all together?

Like, what is it?

What is your, I'm going to answer that.

What's your, do you have a morning routine?

Does Ryan?

I do.

My morning routine is I get up and I have coffee and no one is allowed to talk to me.

Like what?

You just hear that guy?

I have an hour of like quiet reading, meditation.

I'm really cranky.

And I try and do some.

But the kids know how to avoid you or do you, I mean, they just avoid me.

I go to a room.

Yeah.

They can't get me.

Yeah.

I mean, anybody can get me.

Like, if you have kids, you know, they can always find you.

As long as they have new devices, they don't need you.

But I try and do some like movement, you know?

What do you mean, movement?

I try and move.

I try and go on a walk.

I try and get on a treadmill.

I try and walk around.

And that's part of my life.

I got my Apple Watch.

I count my steps.

I'm very conscious of that.

A cup of coffee.

What are you eating every morning?

I eat the same boring ass.

What do you do?

I am a person of tradition.

I have a vegan protein smoothie that has eight fruits in it.

I love that.

And then I have throughout the the day four to six vegetables.

So

I really work hard on that.

That's fantastic.

Yeah.

Like I get a gold medal, right?

Like I work.

No, that's legit.

But it's a practice.

Like you got to work at it and it's not fun.

It's not?

You don't enjoy it?

You don't enjoy it.

I enjoy the tradition of it.

It's fine.

It's not that fun.

It's purple.

It looks like blueberries.

What do you miss?

You miss like bacon and eggs from the battlefield.

Oh, yeah, the pancakes.

Yeah, pancakes.

But like, what do you do?

What do you, what's your smoothie?

I'm the same thing.

I do a smoothie every day.

And you're a big exercise guy.

I'm a little bit.

bit, three, four days a week.

Yeah.

Nothing exciting.

But no, it's the fruit tone.

I'm religious about it for years and years and years.

But I love it.

Like, I can't even imagine not having smoothie or just fruit until, and I say noon, whenever, 11.30.

You were like a big dinner guy.

That's all I care about.

Yeah, me too.

I live for it.

Me too.

I live for dinner.

And I'm in the middle of like a hideous 90-day cleanse.

Why are you doing that?

Because I just came back from vacation and I was like, this is gross.

Like, you know, it was.

Isn't vacation supposed to be the...

Yeah, but I just felt it was too much.

And I'm like, I want to just spend the summer being one with the solstice and try and get some healthy thing, you know?

So an hour of sort of

just you time.

Me time.

And that could also be reading or I stay up late, you know, like told you.

So I like to review what I'm getting ready to present to people.

Because it's like being a public, it's like being a public speaker.

You walk into a room and I have people who are taking notes and I perform the parts.

My job is to have people heading in the same direction.

And I've become better at it, I think, in the past year.

Are you a better business person than you've ever been before?

Or are you still more

creative person?

I always used to think I was a lousy business person, but then one day one of my agents said,

you know, you're really smart at business.

And I was like, what?

You know, I was like, I'm just like a creative person, like a dumb artist,

but

I I make it a daily practice.

And if I don't make my business a daily practice, I feel bad.

I feel guilty.

You know?

But I'm also like, I'm kind of insane.

I have a very, I love collecting art.

Like, I love the, I love that kind of stuff.

It's a, I love that, you know.

Aesthetic design.

It's my favorite thing.

That's my hobby, design and art.

That's how I, like, I work on a lot of projects like that.

I think in another life, I would be a landscape designer or something because I love that.

I'm very odd.

But like, it's producing.

I'm producing.

I have a vision.

I love bringing people together to fight as you do the same fight.

It's almost like being a television showrunner is almost like being a governor, you know?

It's the same thing.

It's exactly the same thing.

There's an opening about 18 months.

I'm just saying.

Can you imagine me as the governor?

You have a point of view.

I don't know.

seems i'm not so bad what do you think i don't know if i'm a good gig i'll i'll uh let me ask you what are you gonna do next i don't know i just you know this production you looked down when you said that by the way this production writing thing we should flip like freaky friday

i've got a lot of i've got a lot of ideas a lot of ideas i've been told you're pitching you you could run a studio you have the glamour to run a studio you could Jesus would you ever want to just need a pair of sunglasses what do you need down here what do you sort of You need a point of view.

You need a point of view.

And you also need to be able to lead.

Love that.

Yeah.

That's it.

People want to be led, man.

You did notice.

You did notice I looked down.

It was impressive.

Yeah.

I am very self-conscious now.

Why can't you talk openly about your future and what you want?

Is there some day where that will happen?

I mean, I'm not uncomfortable.

I'm just moving around.

You're very uncomfortable right now.

Look at me.

I haven't moved once.

I'm sweating now.

Jesus.

Is there a day where you have given yourself to make a decision about your future without anything?

Well, there's no date.

I mean,

life evolves.

You know how it works.

It's you want the create, you want space.

It's not a linear.

It's a very hard time to be doing what you're doing.

Yeah, it's different.

I mean, it's, yeah, there's a lot of,

I mean, this has gotten serious, very serious, what's going on in D.C.

And what's going on here?

I mean, you got 5,000 military in the U.S.

City.

You know, he didn't send military overseas, sent them here in the United States.

Do you ever speak to him

privately?

Yep.

Yeah, because I remember you two having, from what I always heard from you and from people close in, that you had a very nice relationship.

Yep, 90 minutes in the Oval Office a few months ago.

Yeah.

Really good conversation.

And then eight hours later, tweets out new scum and then federalizes the National Guard.

It's a hell of a thing.

Of course, no one worked with him more closely as a governor, a Democratic governor, than I did during COVID.

Yeah.

And

it was extraordinarily collaborative.

So it's my mindset is open hand, not a closed fist.

But what he's doing now is to vandalize this country and this democracy and just

people out on the streets just going about their day and folks in masks humming up unmarked cars.

This is different.

This is different.

You know, when you run for governor, we can talk about some strategies that I think may work.

You can run my campaign.

Can you imagine?

I'm going to run your campaign.

I'm going to do the creative, and

we're going to come up with a slogan.

I don't know.

But

I think this faith thing could work, and it may help.

So I need this to come out.

Well,

right?

I'm shocked myself.

Vampire thing.

I may want to push back the production schedule.

We'll talk about faith.

I'm only going to talk about reconciliation.

I'm only going to send you copies of my shows that are literally the sweetest, kindest.

I just, no more.

I don't need people in refrigerators, half

bodies.

Come on, man.

You may not, but the world does.

The world wants it.

Deal with it.

Listen, I may call you in August before this menu.

I do things like that.

It's not about the thing in the refrigerator.

It's a question of why is it in the refrigerator?

What happened to somebody?

Yeah.

No, I get it.

It's, you know,

this is what makes you qualified to be actually governor.

It's a human condition.

It does sound like the same job.

But sincerely, like, literally, what is the motivation, the why?

What's the sort of the essence of the why?

Right.

That's important.

Politicians don't, they don't explore that.

Well, that brings us back to the Menendez, you know, parole.

It's the same thing.

Should I watch it before I make the decision?

No.

I don't want to.

You shouldn't.

I'm not going to.

And I admire you for your daughter not co-opting you into watching it.

Did she watch it?

Yeah.

They watched it.

And it's they, because there's a few of them, not just one daughter.

I I mean, I've, they, yeah, come on.

It was, this was a cultural phenomenon.

Yes.

Took off.

I mean, they had to be in the know when they went to school.

People, the kids, other kids were talking about it.

And remarkable.

Like, I've not experienced that.

Well, I've not experienced that as a father, obviously, and not in the position I'm in where there's real accountability on it.

Yeah, I mean, you know, on the positive side, the very idea that it would launch.

a conversation with your kids is not a bad thing.

No, it's great.

And I love that they're, and I also...

And they have a point of view.

They have a point of view and allowed me to explain how this all works.

I mean, the idea you're talking about with the parole system, commutations, resentencing,

what youth offenders under the age of 26 and special dispensation that's offered to youth offenders.

And you're talking about your 12, 13-year-old kids.

is a hell of a thing.

So in many ways, it was great educational.

It's been a great educational process.

Yeah, I can see that.

I hear that.

I feel that.

I mean, I get so many young people who write me about it.

But I guess we'll talk at the end of August.

I'm going to talk about when we launch your campaign for governor of California.

You have to resign and then run my campaign.

I would be the worst.

I could never do that.

I'm not convinced.

I can't even run for mayor of West Hollywood.

I can't even do that.

I would be too nervous.

I mean, you got farming background.

We got the faith.

I mean, everything about this guy should be.

I'm going to pray and plant vegetables instead.

Thank you for having me.

It was very fun today.

Thank you.

Great to see you.

Hi, I'm Morgan Sung, host of Close All Tabs from KQED, where every week we reveal how the online world collides with everyday life.

There was the six-foot cartoon otter who came out from behind a curtain.

It actually really matters that driverless cars are going to mess up in ways that humans wouldn't.

Should I be telling this thing all about my loved life?

I think we will see a Twitch stream or president maybe within our lifetimes.

You can find Close All tabs wherever you listen to podcasts.

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