And, This is Ryan Murphy On The Menendez Brothers, The Kennedys, and Kim Kardashian

Speaker 1 This is an iHeart podcast.

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Speaker 8 Shop $10 beauty minis from brands like Mac and Too Faced.

Speaker 3 Take 30% off Lancome and Touchland fragrances and body mists.

Speaker 10 With new offers dropping every week, our associates can help you find the perfect gifts.

Speaker 11 Head into Ulta Beauty today to shop our early Black Friday event, Ulta Beauty.

Speaker 7 Gifting happens here.

Speaker 15 It's the gaming event of the year featuring T-Pain's Nappy Boy Grizzlies versus Neo's Gentleman's Gaming.

Speaker 16 It's a 4v4 matchup featuring Call of Duty, Tetris, Track Mania, Tony Hawk Pro Skater 3 Plus 4, and Tekken 8.

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Speaker 24 Shop their early Black Friday deals and beat the rush.

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Speaker 23 And don't sweat what gifts to get, Dad.

Speaker 27 They have up to 40% off select tools and accessories going on now.

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Speaker 31 This is Gavin Newsom.

Speaker 31 From Gleed and Nip Tuck, Monsters, the Lyle, and Eric Menendez story, one of the most prolific writers, producers, and directors in Hollywood today. This is Ryan Murphy.

Speaker 31 So let me get a window into your day. Okay.
Speaking of windows. Ready? I mean,

Speaker 31 where do you even hang out on an Emmy nomination day? Is that, I mean, or is this old hat for you and you just, you know, it's nice. You act humble.
You say, yeah, it's the work. We just put it out.

Speaker 31 If it's well received, I'm honored. Or do you sit there with your cell phone and assistants and just bated breath waiting for the Emmy stuff to come out? It's funny because I used to do that.

Speaker 31 I started,

Speaker 31 I had my first Emmy nomination in 2003 for directing the pilot of Nip Tuck.

Speaker 31 I would say through Nip Tuck Glee, American Horror Story, even People vs. OJ, like I was, you know, they used to do it at 5.30 in the morning.

Speaker 31 Now they mercifully moved it to 8.30 to be on the New York newscast.

Speaker 31 So I used to be up at the crack of dawn and I would sit there and I'd pace and, you know, have my coffee and worry.

Speaker 31 The interesting thing about it is today

Speaker 31 my company received its 350th Emmy nomination, which was a big number for me because I've only been doing this for like 21 years.

Speaker 31 So

Speaker 31 that I found that out later, but that put it in perspective. No, what happened is I went to bed and I thought, I'm going to wake up.
I'm going to wake up.

Speaker 31 And then I woke up and then I forgot and then I remembered and I turned off my phone and I went to the live feed and I just watched them come in and I wrote down all the different ones that my company got.

Speaker 31 And, you know, for me at this point, it's all gravy, but I was thrilled. I was thrilled for like people like, you know, Javier Bardem, who's a legend.
I think it's his first Emmy nomination.

Speaker 31 And Cooper Koch, who plays Eric Menendez's first Emmy nomination. So for the people who were first time at bat, it's amazing.

Speaker 31 And then you call everybody.

Speaker 31 Yeah, it's a very strange feeling to go from the underdog to the institution. So you say, does it like...

Speaker 31 It's just, it's all a blessing, you know, and I feel happy about it, but I'm oddly very competitive. Like it is, yeah, it matters, right? Like for me, you're probably a sports guy.
You love sports.

Speaker 31 Like, so the Oscars and the Emmys and the Grammys were my Super Bowl, my World Series. So it's, it's, it's a childhood thing.

Speaker 31 And when you say underdog, you mean you're still that guy just starting out? And that was, I mean, so you still have

Speaker 31 that person. I mean, you know, when I first started out,

Speaker 31 It was a really different time in our culture and the stuff that I was writing was pretty boundary pushing.

Speaker 31 And I was always told you were never, you were never going to go, you were never going to get anywhere. So then, when it would click and it would be a hit,

Speaker 31 I would always be surprised. But people would write, you know, underdog, underdog, new, new kid, new kid in town.
I'm no longer the new kid. I'm old.
I have three children.

Speaker 31 And, um, uh, but it is still a thrill. I'm always shocked where it's like it's a dopamine buzz.
Yeah. And also, sometimes you don't get in.
Like, and I also

Speaker 31 have those years,

Speaker 31 but to make it into the big three race, comedy, drama, limited, it's, it's a thrill. And what is, I mean, over the years, how much pressure?

Speaker 31 Because it is, it's unbelievable how many projects you're working on at the same time, how many projects have been under the belt, et cetera, and the success obviously you've had.

Speaker 31 But I mean, how about the pressure you put on yourself? to constantly, I mean, you're competing against this guy, Ryan Murphy. Like you got, you're competing against yourself.

Speaker 31 You're only as good as your next film, your next this, your next that. Or do you feel like that? Or is this just all gravy? And you're like, man, I got nothing to prove.

Speaker 31 You know, for me, I just got named into the Hall of Fame and the ceremonies in the middle of August. And like, you know, for my business, that's kind of, all right, you did it.

Speaker 31 So like, why am I still chasing the carrot? You know, I got the carrot. I don't feel that way anymore.
Yeah. I used to sweat.
every award nomination and every ratings point.

Speaker 31 And now I, you know, I really just do one new thing thing every quarter maybe one and a half every quarter right now I'm working on

Speaker 31 six shows I have six shows coming out starting in September one a month and you know if you that's not one every quarter I'm just talking about since the Hall of Fame okay

Speaker 31 this is pre-Hall of Fame

Speaker 31 I had something to prove yeah okay but you know I have something coming out in September October November I have a very big slate but moving forward

Speaker 31 I'm just kind of you know my kids are young and I'm just trying to concentrate more on my family and

Speaker 31 all the things I'm working on. I'm just fascinated by.
But when you're in the volume business,

Speaker 31 you have to realize you can't, you know, not everything can be a hit. Some things aren't going to work and they're going to break your heart.
But show business breaks your heart.

Speaker 31 You know, only mentally disturbed people go into people, just like politics. Only if you were a usually unloved child would you go into needing that current early childhood trauma.

Speaker 31 Not enough hugs from mom. I mean, that's how I feel.
Is it? With enough psychiatry. Yeah.
So I don't go. So I don't want to go to therapy.
I don't want to know. I don't want to know.

Speaker 31 But I went through that and I'm like, oh, yeah, this hole's never going to be filled up. So it doesn't really matter.

Speaker 31 I just like that I'm able to,

Speaker 31 I have a very large company and just so many thousands. if not hundreds of thousands of jobs that I'm able to create.
Like that

Speaker 31 in my dodage is the thing that I'm actually the most excited about.

Speaker 31 When you say volume business, I mean, that is the business, or it's become the business, or it's the side of the business that you want to pull back from and just focus on quality, or is it quality and quantity?

Speaker 31 I mean, how do you balance the creative, the artist, at the same time, the commercial with everything?

Speaker 31 It's funny. When I started off, I would go.

Speaker 31 I started off as a journalist. So I moved to California.
And I think I told you this years ago when we first met.

Speaker 31 Like I was paid, if I didn't do three stories a day I would not be paid for the week and I had to do 15 stories a week to get a paycheck and I was young and living off coffee and cigarettes and so I've never understood the concept of writer's block I was lucky in that I had that journalistic training like you just write through it love it

Speaker 31 and When I started off, I would do like one thing, but I had so many interests. And like in my journalistic days, I would cover so much territory.
You know, I wasn't working.

Speaker 31 And you're working for the Miami Herald. You're work in the LA Times, Washington.

Speaker 31 And

Speaker 31 what was the job? Was it in the, in what, what was it, you're not doing sports. You weren't necessarily doing daily news.
What were you doing primarily?

Speaker 31 Well, I started off as a crime reporter. Crime, that's it.

Speaker 31 You know,

Speaker 31 I started off in journalism when the purple section of USA Today came about, the life section.

Speaker 31 So I was going to be a journalist,

Speaker 31 and there weren't a lot of people specializing in being culture reporters. So in college, I started to do that.
But when I came out to LA, I was covering everything from

Speaker 31 crime, the riots, to the Jajah Gabor trial. It was very bizarre.
But, you know, I was just like in my car driving around trying to find stories.

Speaker 31 And from that, I developed a lot of interests. And my business, you know, I start my day very early and

Speaker 31 I do editing and story meetings and then I put the kids to bed and I stay up up till 1.30 or 2 in the morning preparing for the next meeting.

Speaker 31 So when I walk into a room, I'm not somebody who says, well, what do you think? I'm like, okay, well, this is what we're doing because I'm being paid to have a vision.

Speaker 31 And also at this point, I have enough hours structurally to figure out.

Speaker 31 It's not that I don't take input because I do, but my job is to have a, people want to be led, as you know, they want to be following a direction. Right.

Speaker 31 So my business now is there's some things that are just really big commercial hits in my company that I have other people run. Like Tim Munier, my great friend, runs the 911 franchises.

Speaker 31 The only thing my older child likes that I've ever done. 911 Nashville.

Speaker 31 We're starting 911 Nashville comes on in September.

Speaker 31 And then I do,

Speaker 31 it's crazy the things I do. Like it's all over the map.
I have a show on Netflix called Monsters that I love.

Speaker 31 I have

Speaker 31 other things I'm developing for FX. I'm doing this thing called The Beauty with Jeremy Pope and Evan Peters and Rebecca Hall and Anthony Ramos.
That's

Speaker 31 kind of a sci-fi show, which I've never done before. A lot of action, which I've never done before.

Speaker 31 Then I'm doing the JFK, Carolyn Bassett. Yes, sure.
You are. And next, what, February?

Speaker 31 Comes out on Valentine's Day. I've been dodging a lot of heat for that.
How do you, by the way, I don't even want to go down that rabbit hole, but I, but yeah, I mean, right?

Speaker 31 The family, you know, I mean, consultant or something. How do you make, how do you even, how do you process that?

Speaker 31 I try and have some humility about it.

Speaker 31 You know, for example, on that show, and I haven't really spoken about this, you know, when you're starting a show based on a famous person, you're usually able to, for a couple of days, say, well, let's try that and let's try this and let's try that.

Speaker 31 And then you look at the dailies and you adjust.

Speaker 31 It used to be that you shot the first episode and then you went down and you corrected everything and then you went back up. It was called pilots.
They don't do that anymore. Yeah, great point.

Speaker 31 So that show was the double whammy of, you know, we were shooting a couple of things.

Speaker 31 And I guess it's a blessing that people went absolutely ape shit crazy about you got the purse wrong, you got the hair wrong.

Speaker 31 So

Speaker 31 it would be stupid not to listen to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, you know, and I looked at it, I'm like, yeah, they're right.

Speaker 31 We should not have Carolyn Bassett, our actress, Rebecca Pigeon, had black hair. It's a lot to ask an actress with dark hair to go blonde.

Speaker 31 And so I was trying to do wigs and work around that, but finally I was like, you know,

Speaker 31 we have to,

Speaker 31 Sarah Pigeon brother, we have to, we have to dye your hair. This is not going to work.

Speaker 31 So we corrected that. And then the thing that I was not prepared for was sort of the Kennedy firestorm,

Speaker 31 which I thought was very strange because they're, nobody's read anything. It's very sympathetic, by the way.
So it's a love story. It's not a takedown.

Speaker 31 It's a story about youth taken too soon and idealism,

Speaker 31 things that we need more in politics.

Speaker 31 JFK Jr. was probably going to be on that path of his father.
Understatement.

Speaker 31 So it's a tragedy.

Speaker 31 So

Speaker 31 then you have a member of the family speaking out. And

Speaker 31 I took it with a grain of salt. You know, it's a younger generation.

Speaker 31 But I will say in finality about that project, you know, there have been over 88 things, movies and television shows about the Kennedys. Right.
Not one has ever been authorized by the family.

Speaker 31 I never even thought they wanted to do that.

Speaker 31 So,

Speaker 31 ours is based on a book that's very sympathetic to both people.

Speaker 32 Um,

Speaker 31 with Paul and Sarah playing, you know, their hearts out. So, that was that was an odd, dark moment for me where I've never that criticism hurt.
I thought it was an odd choice to be mad about your

Speaker 31 relative that you really don't remember.

Speaker 31 I think, but you know this from being in the public eye yourself. Like the days of civil discourse are over.
No, no, no. And it's very hard.

Speaker 31 And you kind of either get into the muck or you try and rise above it. Yeah.

Speaker 31 I found that hard to do, but I did it. And I just have a better

Speaker 31 attitude about it, I think, than I did before I started. And you know, but I'm also thankful for the criticism because if you're smart, you listen to critical justices and you say, okay,

Speaker 31 let's grow. And we fixed it.
We, we, we, we rolled up our sleeves and we listened to people and corrected it. And I like doing that.

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Speaker 2 Liquid simply slide right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high-resilience foam lets you choose between a sink-in-feel or a supportive memory foam blend.

Speaker 2 Plus, our pet-friendly, stain-resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price.
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Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Speaker 4 No, it's not too soon to start holiday shopping.

Speaker 6 Ulta Beauty's early Black Friday event is happening now through November 22nd.

Speaker 8 Shop $10 beauty minis from brands like Mac and Too Faced.

Speaker 3 Take 30% off Lancome and Touchland fragrances and body mists.

Speaker 10 With new offers dropping every week, our associates can help you find the perfect gifts.

Speaker 11 Head into Ulta Beauty today to shop our early Black Friday event, Ulta Beauty.

Speaker 7 Gifting happens here.

Speaker 15 It's the gaming event of the year featuring T-Pain's Nappy Boy Grizzlies versus Neo's Gentleman's Gaming.

Speaker 16 It's a 4v4 matchup featuring Call of Duty, Tetris, Track Mania, Tony Hawk Pro Skater 3 Plus 4, and Tekken 8.

Speaker 18 Season 0 of the Global Gaming League is live streaming on YouTube and Twitch. Head over to GlobalGamingLeague.com.

Speaker 1 Want Black Friday prices without the crowds?

Speaker 23 Lowe's gets it.

Speaker 24 Shop their early Black Friday deals and beat the rush.

Speaker 27 $99 is all you need to grab a select seven-foot pre-lit artificial Christmas tree for the holidays.

Speaker 23 And don't sweat what gifts to get, Dad.

Speaker 27 They have up to 40% off select tools and accessories going on now.

Speaker 22 That's how Lowe's celebrates Black Friday early.

Speaker 29 Selection varies by location while supplies last.

Speaker 31 See, but you take on these projects that by definition, everyone feels very attached and connected with them. Which I'm stupid because I never think that.
Like, I'm like, what? Like, what?

Speaker 31 I always am drawn to things that I guess are

Speaker 31 naturally provocative.

Speaker 31 I don't think of them as being that. And then I put them out, and people

Speaker 31 have huge opinions of them. And I'm always like, wait, what? I don't understand.
But

Speaker 31 that's a blessing and a curse you know and is this i mean

Speaker 31 is it you is it a team of people said hey ryan i got this great idea you know it's been a few years since jackie or this or that i mean menendez where there's a couple things that weren't here's a new angle or is it you you just you know you're constantly absorbing and you're sort of picking i mean your ability to sort of this intersection of how you're able to pull genres and sort of connect dots that other people are seeing is that is that you or is that the team you've assembled?

Speaker 31 And is that expression as it relates to your leadership, your ability to sort of create the conditions where this kind of creativity formats?

Speaker 31 Well, first and foremost, you know, I have amazing collaborators, many of whom I've had for many years, like, you know, Brad Simpson and Nina Jacobson, who did Versace and OJ with me and Pose with me, and Ian Brennan, who...

Speaker 31 does all of the the monster scripts is one of the most brilliant if not the most brilliant writers i've ever worked with i work with max winkler who is henry Winkler's son, who's an amazing collaborator, many, many people.

Speaker 31 But it really kind of my world, my company starts with me saying, hey, I'm interested in that. And that.

Speaker 31 And then I assemble people and we have points of view. Sometimes I'm very hands-on.
Sometimes I'm more like, well, you write a script and show it to me and I'll give you thoughts.

Speaker 31 But anything that I make, I have really big opinions on because I'm

Speaker 31 passionate about it. About it.
And over the years, have you learned through trial and error that things you weren't passionate about were reflected negatively in the outcome? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 31 I mean, that truly. Oh, yeah.
Like you just, that was, it showed. Well, the biggest bomb I ever had was a sitcom.
I've really only had one or two misfires in my career.

Speaker 31 Or just that one NBC thing, right? You're so, yeah. No, but that was it.
That was it. One year.
One season.

Speaker 31 Yes, the other ones I've made the decision. Okay, that's not for me.
Maybe I don't want to keep doing it because, you know, in my contract, I can make those decisions now right um

Speaker 31 but yeah i made a thing called um the new normal that because i'm like you know what these modern family guys are raking in the dough with this half hour i want to try a half hour sitcom

Speaker 31 and i tried it and i loved the talent particularly andrew rannels who loosely played me

Speaker 31 you know

Speaker 31 um Ellen Barkin was amazing in it. Justin Bartha was amazing in it.
And I got somebody like Max Winkler. That was the first time I worked with him.
But it just was not me.

Speaker 31 It wasn't, I don't think it was dark enough. Or

Speaker 31 my comedy tends to be much more sardonic or sarcastic. And it's a family show, you know? Right.
I learned, like, no. And was that chasing, as you say,

Speaker 31 back to the competitor in you? Yeah. You were chasing competition, or was it chasing money, success in that respect? Both? What?

Speaker 31 When you look back? Well, it was two things. Like, I mean, the big comedy of that time that was dealing with, you know, provocative issues was Modern Family.
And I was a big fan of that show.

Speaker 31 And I knew those guys

Speaker 31 from award show circuits because it was always us, them versus Glee. Yeah.

Speaker 31 But I wanted the money, to be honest. Like, I was like, you know, there's nothing better than to have a half hour that works.
You know, because, but back then, it wasn't.

Speaker 31 Is that where that's where the

Speaker 31 pre-streaming?

Speaker 31 You could, you know, syndicate it forever. I love it.
And that was always one of the holy grails of show business. This thing that

Speaker 31 Norman Lear told me,

Speaker 31 who I was friends with, he said, kid, get a half hour. Get a kid.
And I was like, okay. I tried and I just couldn't do it.
I had a great collaborator in Ali Adler, but I just could not do it.

Speaker 31 And I hated doing it.

Speaker 31 It wasn't me. It was just like I had an allergy to it.
And I've had other things that I've tried where I'm like, nah, maybe I'll pick it up down the road. This wasn't the right fit for me right now.

Speaker 31 Right.

Speaker 31 What on the flip side, just something that just, you know, you didn't expect, but you just, that popped.

Speaker 31 God, so many things. I mean, almost all of my big hits were, and I've had a handful, more than a handful, are things that people said, this will never work.
Yeah.

Speaker 31 And I had great mentors in Dana Walden, who we were talking about, and John Langgraff and Ted Sarandos. For example, Glee.

Speaker 31 was told it was a horrible show by people in that company, but Dana stuck with that American horror story. Everyone is like, what?

Speaker 31 You're going to burn down the sets at the end of the year and start over. It made no sense.
Right. Right.

Speaker 31 It, it, John Landgraff was with it. Nobody, you know, I tried to get

Speaker 31 the Jeffrey Dahmer story made for a decade.

Speaker 31 Couldn't get that made. I was shocked at that.
It was so big. I would say almost everything that I've had that is successful, I'm surprised by.
Did you know Menendez would be such a huge global?

Speaker 31 I mean, it was worldwide just off the charts, right? 12 million or something within that first weekend down the I don't those are I mean

Speaker 31 you know it was interesting because I realized like what was the thing that made Dahmer so

Speaker 31 popular right and I think it was it was scary yeah you know it was your secret about the guy next door who's you know doing dastardly things

Speaker 31 Menendez, I always thought, was smaller because it was a Rasha Monsteria who'd done it. Like, why not who'd done it, but why do they do it?

Speaker 32 Um,

Speaker 31 I was surprised. I was, I was very surprised that

Speaker 31 it became such a lightning rod literally within a day. I was very surprised initially that the brothers

Speaker 31 spoke out so vociferously against it. You didn't expect that, no.
No, and I was very surprised where, you know, two months ago they thanked me and said, you know, actually, you helped us.

Speaker 31 Like, you, you did a good thing.

Speaker 31 I was surprised at that.

Speaker 31 I'm always surprised

Speaker 31 at success and I always expect failure, I guess. You're that guy? It's the Irish in you?

Speaker 31 Yeah, because like, you know, I have always lived my life as a Catholic. Yeah.

Speaker 31 I was an altar boy, right? So my motto in my life. Singing in the choir of all things.
Yes, and running cross-country, don't forget. I was a jock a little bit.

Speaker 31 Forgive me.

Speaker 31 My motto in my life has been, guess what happens when the pope dies? You You get a new pope. That's always what I have been raised to think.
Yeah. So if something doesn't work out,

Speaker 31 roll up your sleeves and try again. You know, when I started off, I was in a writer's group of six people.

Speaker 31 I was in two writers' group. The first one, they were all much more talented than me, but the problem was they just, they gave up.
They got one rejection and they literally psychologically.

Speaker 31 You know, you're in politics. It's hard.
It's devastating when you're not chosen.

Speaker 31 You know, and in politics, like in show business you've won big you know that feeling where you win and you also know the feeling well maybe not I don't think you've ever really publicly lost that much but but you know you've you've had a bit of recall efforts I mean it's you know you've been up to the edge but you beat it yeah we beat it there's no no but the loss that I've had

Speaker 31 experience that you know I've had friends who've run for big offices and lost and it's devastating it's personal yeah yeah and I guess you didn't feel that way you felt that way but you were resilient

Speaker 31 I just was like, what can I learn from it? And I always take to my bed for a day.

Speaker 31 You know, I always am like, I have a martini and take to my bed. But then I'm like, all right, well, what are you going to do here? You go on because the next one might be a hit.

Speaker 31 And in my case, I've been blessed enough that that's exactly what happened in my career.

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Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Speaker 4 No, it's not too soon to start holiday shopping.

Speaker 6 Ulta Beauty's early Black Friday event is happening now through November 22nd.

Speaker 8 Shop $10 beauty minis from brands like Mac and Too Faced.

Speaker 3 Take 30% off Lancome and Touchland fragrances and body nests.

Speaker 10 With new offers dropping every week, our associates can help you find the perfect gifts.

Speaker 11 Head into Ulta Beauty today to shop our early Black Friday event, Ulta Beauty.

Speaker 7 Gifting happens here.

Speaker 15 It's the gaming event of the year featuring T-Pain's Nappy Boy Grizzlies versus Neo's Gentleman's Gaming.

Speaker 16 It's a 4v4 matchup featuring Call of Duty, Tetris, Track Mania, Tony Hawk Pro Skater 3 Plus 4, and Tekken 8.

Speaker 18 Season 0 of the Global Gaming League is live streaming on YouTube and Twitch. Head over to globalgaming league.com.

Speaker 21 Com, com.

Speaker 1 Want Black Friday prices without the crowds?

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Speaker 24 Shop their early Black Friday deals and beat the rush.

Speaker 27 $99 is all you need to grab a select seven-foot pre-lit artificial Christmas tree for the holidays.

Speaker 23 And don't sweat what gifts to get dad.

Speaker 27 They have up to 40% off select tools and accessories going on now.

Speaker 22 That's how Lowe's celebrates Black Friday early.

Speaker 29 Selection varies by location while supplies last.

Speaker 34 Amazon Five-Star Theater presents Real Customer Reviews performed by a Real Series Improv Podcaster.

Speaker 1 Tonight's review, Hot Sauce.

Speaker 34 Eating this hot sauce is a fever dream. It's like acid turning my saliva into lava.
I chug almond milk to cut down the heat and assume it's over. But at 1 a.m., the sauce strikes again.

Speaker 34 It woke me from a deep slumber and sent me to the toilet. I took a runner's pose in the bathroom.
I thanked my landlords for the tile floor.

Speaker 31 The pain rustled my gut like an M16 bullet.

Speaker 34 Spiraling about until finally

Speaker 31 I woke up 30 minutes later.

Speaker 34 Then, praying for the end, settled in calm.

Speaker 31 But no,

Speaker 34 it rips the sheets off your bed, hurls you around in a fury once more, double flushes the toilet, punches a hole in the wall, then leaves. Five Stars, Aaron B.

Speaker 10 Thank you for listening to Amazon Five Star Theater.

Speaker 34 Looking for unforgettable gifts this holiday season, like a hot sauce to literally burn your thoughtfulness into the memories of your friends? Find your perfect gift this holiday on Amazon.

Speaker 31 Honestly, do you

Speaker 31 write a list down of all these crazy ideas? You're on a trip taking a vacation and then you see, you know, I don't know, you see a statue of someone.

Speaker 31 You're like, I'm going to do a movie on Marcus Aurelius or something or Da Vinci. No one's talked about Da Vinci.
And he's, you know, he's an interesting character and cat.

Speaker 31 And then 10 years later, you go back to the diary and you go, oh, yeah, what about that Da Vinci idea? I do have a little black book that always starts off, what about dot, dot, dot, right?

Speaker 31 I have that. I've been writing ideas down for, you know, 22 years.

Speaker 31 The motto of my career is always do the opposite of what you just did. So, for example, if you look at my fall, in September, I have 911 Nashville, which is very straight up the middle.

Speaker 31 Americana, good guys,

Speaker 31 you know, solving problems. You root for them, heroes.
Right.

Speaker 31 And then I did the complete opposite of that, which then in October comes Monster Season 3, which is about Ed Gein.

Speaker 31 Yeah. Do you know Ed Gein? No.
Okay. Psycho was based on Ed Gein.

Speaker 31 Silence of the Lambs was based on Ed Gein.

Speaker 31 I don't want to watch it. Why do you want to watch all this negative stuff? I don't know that it's negative.
You like you love all that stuff. I remember, by the way, the Menendez.

Speaker 31 We were having full disclosure. I think it was a lunch.
We did. And you start talking to me about this, and you all but said, I'm sorry.
You said you're sorry.

Speaker 31 And I was like, I didn't fully appreciate how right you were. I think to be sorry.

Speaker 31 I'm not sure what people are going to say, but I think, I think, well, this is what I knew from the Menintez thing. You know, I have all, I moved to LA in 1989.
So that was

Speaker 31 when you're new to a city and that

Speaker 31 double, you know,

Speaker 31 homicide happened soon after. You failed.
I was, you know, when I would see Dominic Dunn at the Chateau Marmont. And, you know,

Speaker 31 what I was aware of is that during COVID, a lot of young people on TikTok had made it a thing.

Speaker 31 And I kind of, you know, I'd like to be aware of what people are saying culturally.

Speaker 31 Listen, it hadn't even aired, but I think what I said to you. That's right.
It hadn't even aired. If TikTok is any indication, I think people will be very interested in this.
But again, I don't know.

Speaker 31 It could be a bomb. Yeah.
And the reason. And I said, we'll talk, and here we are.

Speaker 31 We'll talk only because you knew cause and effect it created it will bring this back there'll be conversations about their sentencing yeah ultimately it led to their re-sentencing yeah and we're just a few weeks away august 21st and 2nd or the i think where the pro board is going to make a decision and make a recommendation to you that lands on my desk right mr murphy that's heavy stuff It's heavy stuff.

Speaker 31 And you know what? Intentionally, and I remember that conversation with you.

Speaker 31 I remember going back and I kept having a temptation to want to see it, but with the recognition always in the back of my mind that this thing may land on my desk. I don't want to be persuaded

Speaker 31 by something

Speaker 31 that's not in the files. Yeah, I get that.
But also I think it's interesting because

Speaker 31 when I was writing it,

Speaker 31 you know,

Speaker 31 We had an interesting writer's room where I was the one person in the room who kept saying,

Speaker 31 I'm not so, I don't think they should get out. I was the voice of like, I don't know.
I don't know. You told me this at the lunch.
I remember you saying this. And

Speaker 31 you know what I think that was? I think

Speaker 31 generationally, young people have a much different

Speaker 31 way of identifying and talking about and navigating abuse than we did. Yeah, yeah.
Just like I remember that trial too. It wasn't even something you could imagine.
Or, you know, people our age

Speaker 31 are very different than younger people in terms of what they see as abuse and can talk about it. We did not.
Yeah. So in a weird way, what has happened through the show

Speaker 31 is I was really, really educated a lot by the other people in the writer's room and by the actors.

Speaker 31 I was astonished at how I went into something with such a predetermined point of view and came out of it. at the end of it thinking

Speaker 31 you know where i am today is i really do think they should be released and i do think they should be paroled and i did not think that when i started um

Speaker 31 does that is that evolved very recently is it evolved over the course of just that that discourse with friends people observing people that watched is it mean is it tell me what's been your journey in terms of coming to that conclusion it was just a lot of things it was it was learning about um listen, what happened between the Menendez brothers was between them and their two parents, and nobody else will ever know what happened, right?

Speaker 31 What happened to me was there was a lot of very interesting voices in my path along the way. You know, for example,

Speaker 31 one of my good friends who's the star of one of my shows coming up, Kim Kardashian, you may have heard of her, arguably the most famous woman on the face of the earth.

Speaker 31 You know, she's a very big victims' rights advocate and she's very, very smart.

Speaker 31 And she's, you know, I can't even get her on the phone to talk about our show right now because she's practicing for the bar. And she's constantly reaching out, talking about cases, advocating for

Speaker 31 our fire crews that are part of our estate prison. I mean,

Speaker 31 a lot of substance there. Yeah, she's an amazing person and very, very educated about this topic.
And so she went, she

Speaker 31 watched the show. I sent it it to her early because she said,

Speaker 31 can I see this? And I sent it to her early.

Speaker 31 And she was really obsessed with it and then went to visit them. Interesting.
And then called me up and said, you know, like, I really feel like they deserve to be paroled. And I said, why?

Speaker 31 And she talked a lot about a really interesting points of view that I had not really thought about, which is, you know, they were under 25.

Speaker 31 You know, which I think is an interesting point of view.

Speaker 31 There's many studies that show

Speaker 31 the prefrontal cortex for men do not fully develop.

Speaker 31 About 26. So there's that argument.
Also, they've been modeled prisoners. Also, I was very moved by their family recently and how the family is so unified.

Speaker 31 And I guess it just begs the question: like,

Speaker 31 if not now, when? Like, what... What benefit to society do we have by keeping them there if they can come come out of prison and actually serve some good? And I think that's a powerful thing.

Speaker 31 Yeah, it's interesting. The flip side is: I've had people say, what good can come from sending a message that you can kill both your parents and be released? Sure.

Speaker 31 Why has society benefited with them being released? Which is, I mean, it's interesting. The parole process is a much more limited process.
You can't even get it.

Speaker 31 The conversation there is, have they exercised a process to rehabilitate themselves and and through an independent psych evaluation and risk assessment?

Speaker 31 Are they quote unquote suitable for parole on the basis of in-prison behavior and a series of other criteria that's well established and laid out?

Speaker 31 And so it's an almost separate, it's not almost, but it is a separate question than the broader feeling of whether or not it's the right or wrong thing. So it's an interesting for these things.

Speaker 31 It's why for me, I didn't want to be colored or don't want to be colored by sort of the atmospheric. So I had to deal with this with Saran-Saran, Saran.
Yeah.

Speaker 31 Which was, that was, and I mean, that's a whole nother. One of these days we'll see your efforts.
I want to see what you put together. I think the Kennedys have had enough of me.

Speaker 31 But what do we ask you about? Like, what about one of the recent Manson girls? Tough Pearl. Tough.
How did you make that decision? They're brutal.

Speaker 31 I mean, I've had multiple opportunities and the burden opportunities, the gift banana ones perspective to make judgments on that. There's a number of the Manson

Speaker 31 folks that have been rejected by the last three governors that I rejected a few times.

Speaker 31 The last rejection was overturned by the court

Speaker 31 that felt we were abusing our discretion

Speaker 31 in our parole office. And they're tough.
I mean, it's things notoriety works in both ways.

Speaker 31 It works absolutely for you, but it is a sword used against you at the same time. And I think that's what the Menendez,

Speaker 31 what your series did is it really elevated that conversation as well.

Speaker 31 Because there are a lot of other people in prison that don't get any attention, that don't even get in front of the parole board, that don't have advocates, that don't have Kim Kardashian making phone calls, that don't have their day in court, so to speak, at least the court of the parole board.

Speaker 31 And

Speaker 31 so it's, you know, it's trying to balance all that. Same time, you've got people that are releasing that have

Speaker 31 done equivalent or worse, that have spent less time. Right.
Less time. It's a very, it's a very slippery slope and it's a really hard road and i feel for you um

Speaker 31 but you know i don't know it's sort of like

Speaker 31 the penal system in this country operates differently than any other country on earth and you have to question why and like

Speaker 31 i mean my god if they could get out and help two people like isn't that worth it in some way i don't know maybe i'm being too catholic about it all but it's but i was astonished that I flipped.

Speaker 31 That you flipped. And I really did flip.
And I flipped.

Speaker 31 I don't remember how long ago that launch was, but you were definitely not there. I was not.
Because you asked me point blank. And I said, I don't know.
I don't know.

Speaker 31 I was very on the fence about it. And

Speaker 31 yeah. And also, I just think.
Listening to people younger than you is part of the job for me at this point. Yeah.

Speaker 31 It reminds me of the general, there's a big generational shift happening in like Hollywood in particular. And also, maybe I'm just that age, but

Speaker 31 I tried to listen with an open heart and educate myself about abuse and

Speaker 31 victims. And it was an interesting process for me.
And of course, I love the show so much because you asked me, why are you making this gross thing all the time?

Speaker 31 No, I mean, back to, yeah, back to, we'll get back to the Hannibal Lecter and this stuff. Well, like,

Speaker 31 it's a point of view. I'm trying to relax here, and you're making me watch this stuff.

Speaker 31 i'm trying to go to bed i got a beautiful buzzy law show coming up with cam cars that kind of stuff that's what i need to be relaxing you need i got enough stress in my life okay yeah i got you're introducing all this additional anxiety i know murder dahmer seriously see maybe you can now with with you get this what the 21st 22nd yeah then you can watch the meninges brothers over your labor day i made i'm gonna do see if i made the right decision yeah right like jesus i should have watched this before i would love for you to watch it actually because the thing about that show that I love is it asks the question, are monsters made or are they born?

Speaker 31 And what is your ultimate?

Speaker 31 I think ultimately, in the case of these two brothers, I think they were made. Made.
Yeah. And you think that's always the case?

Speaker 31 I think that's what I love about the show. Like, if it's very complicated, like,

Speaker 31 you can be.

Speaker 31 You know, if you think about season three, which is coming up, where Charlie Hunnan plays Ed Gein, which is not, not for the squeamish. But really what it is about is

Speaker 31 this was a person who was mentally ill, who was an undiagnosed schizophrenic his entire life. And not until it was too late, until he was in prison, I believe in his 50s, was he diagnosed.

Speaker 31 So it really is sort of a story about mental health and awareness.

Speaker 31 That's what I love about telling those sort of stories. I'm not in it for the blood.

Speaker 31 I'm not in it for the gore. I'm in it for like, well, well, what is it? Was he made or was he born that way? Yeah.

Speaker 31 I think that that story of Ed Gein is both. He was born that way and made that way.

Speaker 31 Yeah. And are you, do you do? I mean, so you have a team doing that research, but you're writing, I mean, you're, I mean, as you're writing this, is it coming from your own research? Yeah.
Is it?

Speaker 31 I mean, on all of my shows that are,

Speaker 31 you know, true stories,

Speaker 31 I would say, based on my research, like I have a very large amount of researchers who spend

Speaker 31 years

Speaker 31 before we write something. Like if you look at Ed Gein, JFK, Carolyn Bassett,

Speaker 31 we spend a lot of time,

Speaker 31 you know, because those things, what you try and do with the biopic, right, is you don't want to do a Wikipedia thing.

Speaker 31 You want to find like the most bizarre factoise that you're like, oh, that.

Speaker 31 Yeah, yeah. You know, I remember when we were doing Dahmer, I was astonished by the fact that he, and I had never heard this before, that he in prison would play whale noises to fall asleep.

Speaker 31 Like, you can't make that up. No.
You cannot make that up. No.
So I was like, well, we have to put that in. And that launched the sound of the score.
Like, it's fascinating.

Speaker 31 You should watch it. You would like to.
Don't you? I can handle glee.

Speaker 31 What is your favorite show on TV right now? Jesus. As a pop culture guy, you watch stuff.
I watch a little stuff, not a lot of stuff.

Speaker 31 You called me to say you got to watch The politician remember you did that okay so yeah you made you said you're going to watch that so i watched that you're a tele guy right i i want i love that makes me feel good man like a little tear in my eye i need a little i appreciate that i love that show yeah right lasso is my life is so here's the thing it's hard right well this is my business does this right life is hard yeah everybody's struggling so i think you either want to watch something that makes you forget it yeah and makes you laugh and is light or you want something something that is dark where you can put your anxiety into that.

Speaker 31 That's true. I did that with OJ.
I mean, that was next level. It was fantastic.
That was, come on. Yeah, that was a good one.
What? Not good. It was great.
I love doing it. It wasn't good.

Speaker 31 It was off the charts good. But again, that was like, that had been kicking around.
Nobody wanted to make that.

Speaker 31 It's funny about you think now, like, well, yeah,

Speaker 31 the home run, but it was, it's, it's always interesting to me about

Speaker 31 what,

Speaker 31 because, you know, when we were making it, so many people said, why are you making this to me?

Speaker 31 And I was like, I don't know. I like the story.

Speaker 31 You know?

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Speaker 21 Com, com.

Speaker 1 Want Black Friday prices without the crowds?

Speaker 23 Loe's gets it.

Speaker 24 Shop their early Black Friday deals and beat the rush.

Speaker 27 $99 is all you need to grab a select seven-foot pre-lit artificial Christmas tree for the holidays.

Speaker 23 And don't sweat what gifts to get dad.

Speaker 27 They have up to 40% off select tools and accessories going on now.

Speaker 22 That's how Lowe's celebrates Black Friday early.

Speaker 29 Selection varies by location while supplies last.

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Speaker 1 This is an iHeart podcast.