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This is Gavin Newsom.

And this is Secretary Leon Panetto.

Mr.

Secretary, thanks for taking the time to be with us.

And as a fellow Californian, it seems appropriate that I start here.

We have so many topics to discuss.

Obviously, many issues going on that are radically evolving in real time overseas.

But one thing that continues to evolve in a very remarkable and meaningful way here in our own state of California in Los Angeles is the deployment of close to 5,000 military personnel.

In fact, last count was 4,946

formerly National Guard, now federalized and active duty U.S.

Marines that have been deployed to the streets of Los Angeles.

But, Mr.

Secretary, what's remarkable to me, and this is where I want to begin with you, is only a very small percentage have been mission tasked.

The rest, quite literally, are sitting around waiting for assignments.

Thousands and thousands of former National Guard men and women that were working to do

drug interdiction, working on the border on behalf of the state, including many of them working for other state agencies in law enforcement, have been federalized.

And I'm curious, your thoughts about what you've seen in Los Angeles, your own reflection as a former Secretary of Defense, former chief of staff.

Did you ever imagine thousands and thousands of men and women being federalized against the wills of a governor of a home state?

No, first of all, thank you for having me as part of your

podcast here.

It's good to be with you, Gavin.

Look,

I have

a very different approach here.

As a

former member of Congress, former director of the CIA, and former Secretary of Defense,

I think it's very important for this country to respect the role of the military.

And the role of the military is basically to defend this country from foreign adversaries.

And throughout our history, we've been very clear that

the role of the military ought not to be used for law enforcement purposes.

And I believe in that because, frankly, we need the military to protect our national security.

The president just used our military military to conduct an attack in Iran.

That's what the military is about.

That's what they're trained to do.

And we have to respect that role.

And

if we do anything to politicize the role of the military, it basically weakens our national security and weakens our national defense.

So

I think that

there are some real concerns about the politicalization of

our military and particularly the activation of our National Guard here in California.

It raises real concerns about whether or not politics are being played.

I really do believe that

this country

deeply trusts our military because they protect our national security.

I hope we can stick to that role.

Well, I certainly appreciate that.

And,

you know, it's interesting.

Just recently in Los Angeles, we had some of the most destructive wildfires in U.S.

history.

And we deployed roughly 3,000 of our National Guard men and women.

They were there on the scene.

Quite literally, they had pre-positioned these rattlesnake teams.

They were doing some defensive work on vegetation management before the fires erupted.

And thousands were deployed within hours and days to protect

and support our law enforcement, obviously our firefighters, but also keep the peace.

They're extraordinary young men and women.

And to see them used in this way

is remarkable as much as it is demoralizing, not just for those of us in positions that we share, but for them themselves.

I mean, this is not what they signed up for to be in this position.

That's exactly right.

Look,

our National Guard has been extremely important,

very important element, again, to our national security.

During the time we were conducting the war on terror, the National Guard was actually being deployed and activated abroad to try to help in the war against al-Qaeda and terrorism.

And that's what the National Guard is all about.

You know, obviously

governors like yourself have a responsibility to be able to activate the National Guard when they're needed, as you did, certainly with regards to the fires in California and certainly with regards to other areas where you feel it's necessary.

And that is what the National Guard is for.

when a president comes in and basically activates them for what I believe are more political purposes than purposes related to protecting the public's interest, then as I said, it undermines trust,

not just

in

our way of government, it undermines trust in the fundamental role of the National Guard and our military.

So I'm very concerned about this.

I think we have to continue to hold the line, do the right thing, make sure that we're making the right decisions.

And ultimately, I think

we will

get back

to

using the National Guard the way they're supposed to be used, because that is what the men and women in the National Guard, that's why they joined, is to be able to be deployed pursuant to the law, not against the law.

Here, here.

Well, I appreciate that sentiment.

And we're doing what we can, not only to exercise our moral authority as it relates to calling that out and

trying to organize a larger consciousness.

This is, by the way, not about California.

The order that initiated this is a national order.

The President of the United States now can move freely on the basis of this action to do the same on a whim

with any modest protest that law enforcement, local law enforcement, can easily address and now can look to weaponize the guard.

But I'm curious,

you, I'm sure, saw the President's speech at Fort Bragg.

So much attention a few days later was placed on the military parade.

And I'm curious your thoughts on that.

And I think good people can view that through very different lenses.

But the Fort Bragg speech, I think, underscores, Mr.

Secretary, some of your comments.

In this case, not the National Guard,

but men and women in uniform, active military personnel, hooting and hollering, booing,

former president, the current governor, California, other elected officials.

At the same time, the President of the United States, as he was giving a speech, was selling Trump campaign merchandise.

I don't want to tee up a softball for you, but I imagine, again, it's a former CIA director, not just former Secretary of Defense and Chief of Staff and former member of Congress.

He ever seen anything like that?

Look, you know,

obviously we live in

unique times with

a president who doesn't necessarily respect

all of the values that past presidents, whether they're Republican or Democrat, have always respected.

And when he turns, when he

has that kind of speech, which is basically a political rally

with our men and women in uniform,

in many ways he's demeaning their role.

And, you know,

what bothers me is that

I believe the President of the United States as Commander-in-Chief

is responsible for protecting our national security.

And the way you protect our national security is by deploying our men and women

where you need them in order to ensure that we protect

our democracy.

That's why they're there.

That's why we train them.

That's why they go into the military.

This is a volunteer force.

They go in because

they want to basically help defend this country.

I've looked into their eyes in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere.

And these are young men and women who are prepared to fight and die for our country.

And they will respond to the order of a commander-in-chief when necessary in order to help defend this country.

The president needs to respect that role.

The president of the United States needs to respect the role of our men and women in uniform,

not use them for political purposes, not politicize their mission, not have a political rally

at a military post,

but give them the respect that they're due, which is that their primary role is to defend this country from foreign adversaries and not use them as if somehow he's an autocrat who would just basically use the military to protect his power.

That is a misuse of the responsibility of Commander-in-Chief.

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Hi, I'm Erica Cruz-Guevara, host of KQED's podcast, The Bay.

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There seems to be a lack of clarity in terms of that perspective and response, particularly from Congress.

You served in Congress for, well, what, 16 plus years, and you revere the institution.

I've heard you, Mr.

Secretary, on previous interviews talking about of all the jobs you had from OMB director to working under the Nixon administration, remarkably in that Office of Civil Rights, that your time in Congress, when it worked,

it was a point of deep pride and reverence.

When you look at Congress today,

you look at the lack of oversight, checks, and balances.

You look at what I would refer to as the appalling silence on issues like those we just discussed.

What's your assessment of where we we are and how the hell do we get out of this moment?

Well, I have very deep respect for our founding fathers and

what they wanted in their genius to do in creating our democracy.

They made very clear at the Constitutional Convention.

that they did not want to centralize power in any one branch of government.

They didn't want a king.

They didn't want a king king parliament.

They didn't want a star chamber court.

They had seen what that was about in those times.

And so they wanted to make sure

that

they would limit power.

And the way they did that is by creating three separate but equal branches of government, each a check and balance on the other.

And for 250 years, that system of checks and balances has worked pretty well.

It's been threatened, it's been challenged, but it's worked pretty well.

And we are now in one of those periods where our system of checks and balances is being tested.

And my concern right now is that the institutions they created to provide that check and balance, they themselves are being tested.

Congress, unfortunately, is not standing up and really being a check in our system right now.

They're basically standing back

and

giving the president

a free ride,

a blank check with regards to everything he's doing, rather than serving.

as a check, rather than having the hearings that have to be done,

rather than standing up and saying, no, we cannot abuse the Constitution of the United States.

We swear an oath to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution.

We have to stand by that.

I was a believer in that as somebody in Congress who swore that oath.

And I think that's what Congress has to do.

That's not happening.

We understand that.

So

the only check that's happening right now, we certainly aren't getting a check by the executive.

The only check that's happening right now that's effective are the courts.

And I give them a tremendous amount of credit for their willingness to stand stand up and to be able to uphold the rule of law.

Unfortunately,

as we all know, it takes time for the courts to act and a lot of damage can be done in the interim.

So

I really think it's important that our system of checks and balances work.

And probably the only way that's going to happen right now is the American people, because the American people are the ultimate check in a democracy.

That's in the Constitution.

Their ability to vote, their ability to vote for elected leaders is the fundamental check in a democracy.

So I remain hopeful that ultimately we will get through this because our forefathers believed that we cannot afford to centralize power, certainly in the presidency.

I appreciate it.

I'm reminded as you share those words and thoughts of Justice Brandeis, who said, in a democracy, the most important office is the office of citizen, this notion of active, not inert citizenship.

And it's reminded everybody listening of the imperative to reconcile the fact that you're not bystanders, that we have agency, that we can shape the future.

And I think in so many ways we saw that

on the same day that the president was celebrating, and I certainly appreciate celebrating

with the kind of reverence they deserve the United States military in a parade.

Same time, though, millions of people showed up in a no-kings rally, sort of reinforcing the framework that our founding fathers tried to correct, or at least counter.

And I think it shows that

democracy is still alive,

bottom-up, if not the moment top-down.

Yeah, Gavin, I often say that

in my over 50 years of public life, I've seen Washington at its best and I've seen Washington at its worst.

Uh the good news is I've seen Washington work.

Um when I was uh first elected, uh Tip O'Neill was uh Speaker of the House, a Democrats-Democrat from Boston, but he had a great relationship with Bob Michael, who was the minority leader from Illinois.

Uh and the basic message of, of course, they had their politics.

They you know, they fought each other in election.

But when it came to big issues, they worked together.

The message we always got is that Republicans and Democrats have to work together in order to govern the country.

And we did.

We did.

During the Reagan administration,

a Democratic Congress passed Social Security reform.

That's the third rail of politics.

We passed it with a bipartisan vote.

We passed immigration reform, comprehensive immigration reform, bipartisan,

bipartisan vote.

We passed tax reform.

We dealt with the budget.

We were able to frankly pass agreements to help bring the deficit down and discipline the federal budget and balance the federal budget.

Not only balance it, but get a surplus.

That was done because parties were willing to work together.

Today, We are at a time when there's a lot of partisanship, a lot of division, a lot of unwillingness to be able to govern together.

And the result is that Washington is dysfunctional.

And that is hurting our democracy.

And on that topic, because we've explored that on the podcast, we've had a number of interesting guests and people very familiar to you.

Former Speaker Newt Gingrich was on.

We had an opportunity to talk to Frank Luntz.

Obviously, that's very personal to you because you referenced in that list.

You have a lot of receipts on that list,

as as personal as it is to you, not only as a former member of Congress, some of those line items you just listed, but also you were chief of staff of Bill Clinton when we had that balanced budget.

You worked with Newt Gingrich across the party lines.

You proved, not just asserted, that we can work together across our differences.

But the question that I'm continuing to sort of be vexed with is what the hell happened and when did it happen and who's responsible?

And when did things start to collapse?

I mean, at the same time, it seemed to be peak partisanship.

You guys were working together in the Clinton administration.

You took over.

I mean, I'll say with love and respect to former President Clinton, but it was rather dysfunctional office at the time.

You got shellacked in the midterms.

You've described the former President Clinton as being depressed in terms about his standing.

And you came in and you were part of that turnaround.

And you also

advanced a different frame, a closed fist, talk about turnaround, with an open hand to partner with a Republican

speaker and produce those results.

But was that the moment things were advanced, or was that the moment

the setback began?

It was not an easy time,

as you pointed out.

Imagine.

I mean, the president, President Clinton,

you know, really

was moving forward.

He had passed a very tough budget.

We were passing appropriations bills.

He passed family leave.

He passed NAFTA.

He passed a number of things.

And then, as you all know, in politics,

it can come back to bite you, and it did in the midterms.

And the president lost the Congress to the Republicans, and he was depressed about

where his administration was going to go.

And

having been through these changes in my own lifetime, I told the president, look, ultimately every crisis provides an opportunity.

This is a crisis.

It does provide an opportunity.

You need to sit down.

and try to see if there are areas where we can work together.

Unfortunately, at the beginning, Newt Ginrich took a position.

He was going to push for his own budget, cut Medicare, and cut some other vital programs.

The president dug in.

And what the Republicans did in response was to shut the government down.

The government was shut down.

This is the first time the government was shut down for almost two weeks and it backfired on the Republicans.

And Newt Ginrich then, to his credit, decided maybe the better approach would be to actually try to work with the president.

The president took him up on that.

They were able to work together.

We did some things on the budget.

We did some things on health care.

We were able to get get things done.

But that was because there was a willingness then to try to see if we could govern together, to get back to the basics of governing together.

That's what needs to happen.

I mean, I think in some ways, I'm really offended that the President of the United States did not give a heads up to Congress on this military strike that took place in Iran.

That's a responsibility of the president to be able to inform the Congress, both Republicans and Democrats, the gang of eight, as to what's happening with regards to our national security.

Commander-in-Chief is deploying our men and women into harm's way.

He's got to be willing to make sure that both Republicans and Democrats on the Hill are aware of

what is happening.

And unfortunately, that didn't take place.

And I think

it's a real slap in the face to how our democracy should function.

You know, interestingly, Mr.

Secretary, I can attest to that just on a personal basis because I was speaking at an event

with

minority leader Jeffries.

And

as he was walking out of the event,

we all started to see on our cell phones what had just occurred.

We spent an hour and a half at that event talking about every conceivable issue.

And here it was happening in real time.

And the future Speaker of the House of Representatives, to your point, was not even, they didn't have me the courtesy of a heads up.

But I'm curious

on that.

And going back just briefly, and I want to move off it, but I am fascinated.

I mean, We talk about this dysfunction.

We talk about Tip O'Neill and all the wonderful stories of O'Neill and Reagan working together across their differences.

You've amplified that as it relates to even Clinton and Gingrich.

But was there a moment, was that moment despite the fact that they were able to persevere and those two personalities, remarkable personalities, historic personalities, Clinton and Gingrich, were able to finally find some common ground?

Was that the beginning of the end, though?

I mean, do you mark that as a moment where things did radically change?

The government shut down the approach Gingrich had, initial approach, in terms of his relationship with the presidency and the executive?

There's There's no question.

And I've told Newt this directly.

I said

that

what happened was

that

Newt was really struggling to try to get the Republicans in power.

And he was willing to undermine the institution

of the House of Representatives and the Congress.

in order to get that done.

He actually basically undercut

almost members in his own party in order to be able to do that.

And it was kind of a real cutthroat approach to politics.

And it created some bad feelings.

And look, the Democrats made their mistakes as well.

And

when

both sides decided that rather than working together, they would get into their own trenches and basically throw grenades at one another.

That really was the beginning of the end in terms of governing.

I mean,

the problem is for the last 20 years,

look, I tell the students at the Panetta Institute that in a democracy we govern either by leadership or by crisis.

If leadership is there and willing to make tough decisions and basically reach across and try to develop consensus and compromise, we can avoid crisis.

But if that leadership isn't there, then we'll govern by crisis.

And I have to tell you, you, for the last 20 or 25 years in Washington, they've largely been governing by crisis.

And that undermines trust in our basic system of governing.

And that's why, very frankly, Washington is so dysfunctional right now.

You know, in your remarkable career and spans quite literally over half a century and continues to this day at the Panetta Institute,

You know, you served in many different roles.

Of course, we reflect on the last time we had a balanced budget, even a surplus under your tutelage and stewardship as chief of staff in the Clinton administration.

But you went on to serve in other roles, and as I've referenced a moment ago, from OMB to obviously Secretary of State of Defense and CIA Director.

I'm curious.

your reflection.

You know, there's been, it seems to me, an assault on knowledge, particularly at West Point.

Recently, there was reports, not specific, that books are being banned.

Baldwin, you know, other books from well-known authors, historic facts that appear to be being censored.

West Point, my gosh,

these are the best of the best, these remarkable young cadets.

And I'm just curious, you know, you were part of the sort of pulling back and don't ask, don't tell women in the military and being able to lead.

You moved in a very different direction in your leadership roles.

What's your reflection of where we are now in this sort of assault on all things, quote-unquote, wokeness or DEI or even on historic facts?

Well, you know,

Gavin,

I'm the son of immigrants,

Italian immigrants who came to this country like millions of others.

And

I can remember remember asking my dad,

why did he come all of that distance to come to a strange land?

And I never forgot his answer, which was that my mother and he believed they could give our children a better life in this country.

I think that's the American dream, and that's what we want for our children.

And I think to get there, we have to embrace our freedoms, not destroy our freedoms, not destroy our openness, not destroy our ability to learn from one another.

We may not like what others say, but the ability to listen, the ability to have a say, the ability to enjoy different points of view is what is what our freedom, what the American dream is all about.

I had, you know, young

young people who were who wanted to serve in the military.

That's a good thing.

We ought to give them that opportunity to serve.

And that's what I tried to do as secretary.

You know, regardless of their race or color or creed or sexual preference, the fact is they wanted to serve this country.

And you know what?

They did a damn good job serving this country.

And that's true for our men and women.

in our academies, whether it's West Point or Annapolis or others.

Their ability to embrace everyone who who wants to serve, to embrace our freedom, to embrace openness, to embrace what our society is all about, to embrace what democracy is all about.

These are young people are going to put their lives on the line to basically protect our country.

They need to know the importance of why they're going to fight and die for their country.

And that's why they need to be exposed to all kinds of views.

And that's what the Academy has done in the past.

I regret that they're getting all worked up about

their approach now with regards to books and what have you.

I mean, this is a throwback to

the age of witches in Salem, for God's sake.

So

it really is important.

And listen, we'll get beyond this.

I do not consider this any kind of permanent face that's going to take place.

I think this is just a moment in time, and we've seen many of those in 250 years.

This is a moment in time, but ultimately we are going to get back to the values of our democracy that made us strong.

There is no other way that this country can survive.

And I appreciate that optimism.

I imagine others listening

that warms their heart.

But what, I mean, and I don't mean to be modeling, just let me stress test it a little bit, you know, and challenge you on that.

I mean, it's been an extraordinary few months, this administration.

And I, you know,

you served as an OMB director.

You've got a new one in there now that,

boy, these guys were, they wound up.

They were ready to go.

This 2025 project.

There was a plan.

They're executing a plan.

I mean, I don't imagine.

I appreciate all the work you did as OMB director, but I'm not sure you had an agenda that was was this thick and this prescriptive and laid out that goes to assault these institutions, assaults our norms

and traditions.

Why do you remain so confident that we can withstand?

We acknowledge there's only one other branch of government left, the courts, at the moment.

And obviously the court of public opinion.

Perhaps that may be the answer.

Yeah, you know, look, there's no question there's a lot of damage being done.

I think we're seeing that every day.

What's happening with immigrants, what's happening with the rule of law, what's happening with funding, what's happening with federal civil servants.

There's just an awful lot of damage that is being done.

But,

you know,

I really believe, I guess

This goes to the heart of why I feel the way I do, because, you know, in my 50 years,

I've witnessed a lot of different people come into office, a lot of different views that were brought in.

But there were, you know, for 80 years going back

to World War II,

whether a president was Republican or Democrat, there were some fundamental values that every one of them had

and shared.

And that was not only, you know, American world leadership.

They also respected the values of our democracy.

They also

made very clear that

this country was going to respect the rule of law and our Constitution.

They also made very clear that we would

work

through our democracy in order to make change.

Every president wants to make change.

But most presidents make change by working through our Constitution and through our democracy.

Look, Bill Clinton, when he became president of the United States, made the decision that we were going to try to achieve almost $500 billion in deficit reduction.

But we did that through the budget.

I sat down with the president.

We walked through the budget.

He made decisions about what programs ought to be funded, what programs ought to be cut, and we put that into a budget, sent it to the Congress.

That's the way you're supposed to do it.

And we were successful.

We passed that budget.

And yes, you know, we were able to achieve 500 billion in deficit reduction, but we did it pursuant to the law and pursuant to the Constitution.

Why this president comes in and throws all of that out the window, gets Doge, gets Elon Musk, gets whoever else to suddenly engage in this kind of vigilante approach to democracy basically undermines our democracy.

It doesn't strengthen our democracy.

It undermines it.

You undermine the power of the Congress, which has the power of the purse under our Constitution.

It's the Congress that decides what is funded and what programs are protected, not

a group of vigilantes.

So,

look, the courts have been finding that that is the case time and time again.

I really do believe that ultimately the American people do not want

a king

as president.

They want a president who understands that his oath to the Constitution has to come first.

That's where the American people are at.

And yeah, you know, presidents can say or do whatever the hell they want.

But ultimately it's the American people who rule in this country.

And I honestly believe that whether they're living in a red state or a blue state, they believe in American values and they believe in the rule of law and they believe in the Constitution.

That's why this country is going to survive.

I love it.

I love it.

I'm going to bookmark that.

That's a point of optimism.

This is an iHeart podcast.