Taking On Fox News (Live with Terry Moran!)

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Speaker 20 This is Gavin Newsom.

Speaker 21 I'm still learning the ropes here.

Speaker 22 That's good.

Speaker 22 And by the way,

Speaker 22 you're in Springfield right now?

Speaker 21 I was in Springfield. I just got back this morning.
I drove back.

Speaker 21 And today, DHS announced 60 days and they're gone for the Haitians. So the families that I met with who are, you know, law-abiding, they're working.
They fill out W-2s. They pay taxes.

Speaker 21 They got Social Security numbers. The mayor wants them.
The governor wants them. The city council wants them.
Business church leaders. Trump wants them out based on his slander of them.

Speaker 21 And they have 60 days and they're hiding in their homes, governor.

Speaker 22 They are hiding in their homes.

Speaker 21 And the babies, 1,200 babies born since they've been here. Now the Supreme Court throws their fate into doubt.

Speaker 22 It's, you know, and good for you.

Speaker 22 Forgive me just selfishly stating it so often. And it's so interesting just from your prism now, this sort of new alignment with

Speaker 22 what you're doing, that you're going back to a story that everybody's moved on from

Speaker 22 that was weaponized in a rubric of debates and a political campaign and now reminding everybody of the human side of all this and the impacts.

Speaker 22 But it's what you just said about the mayor and the governor and the community.

Speaker 21 uh this only reinforces just the absurdity of this moment yeah and now you're uh fighting back in a really interesting way. I read the suit.
I read

Speaker 21 the claims, a bunch of questions, but you're suing Fox News. I assume everybody's watching at this point, and there'll be more coming, know that.
So why? What's your beef?

Speaker 22 Well, the beef is, you know, you can't maliciously slander someone. You can't defame someone by altering facts, editing facts, knowingly doing that.

Speaker 22 without being held to some higher level of ethics and accountability. I have no problem.

Speaker 22 Look, we all know Fox is a propaganda network, but it's under the guise of being a news organization, being journalists.

Speaker 22 And there's rules of engagement as it relates to that. And, you know, he,

Speaker 22 Donald Trump and I had a phone call on June 6th, early morning, maybe June 7th. Four days later, Donald Trump lied and said, well, we talked the day before.

Speaker 22 I highlighted the fact we never talked the day before.

Speaker 22 Fox decided to cover up for the president's lie,

Speaker 22 and they knowingly did that in a way that defamed. And I just think we need to call that out now.
It's one thing to be on the receiving end.

Speaker 22 And I've been on the receiving end of Fox for years and years and years.

Speaker 22 But there's red lines. And on this red line, they crossed it.
And I want a simple apology. I just, I'm not looking.
You know, you got to file these in

Speaker 22 your own individual accord.

Speaker 22 It's, you know, the malice is a high bar, but they're dead to right on this. I mean, they had a Chiron who said, Gavin lied about Trump

Speaker 22 call. I mean, so they've got to apologize.
If they don't, they need to be held to account.

Speaker 22 And we want to seek damages.

Speaker 21 Right. You're asking for an apology and $787 million.

Speaker 22 You heard that number before. Where'd that number come from?

Speaker 22 That's the Dominion lawsuit. And they reacted to the Dominion lawsuit with a press release that they put out against this lawsuit that almost was, you know, you almost could have cut and pasted it.

Speaker 22 And they paid a big price there. But what they did do is they didn't fundamentally change their practices.
And that's the point. That's the point of this lawsuit.
This money doesn't come to me.

Speaker 22 It's not about any of that. This is charity goes someplace else.
But this is about changing these practices, these unethical practices. And, you know, I don't do this lightly.

Speaker 22 I got a bunch of calls there. This is actually why this happened.
I, you know, I watched Jesse Waters. I watched John Roberts.
I mean, that's just straight news, John.

Speaker 22 And Jesse tries to assert himself in that respect. And I got a bunch of calls saying, why'd you lie about the Trump call from friends? I said, what do you mean I lied about it? Just making that up.

Speaker 22 I said, well, that's not what I'm seeing on Fox. And so I'm constantly battling that.
I'm like, this is doing damage. It was, you know, not just on the 65 million people that watched.

Speaker 22 Fox and Fox business, but hundreds of millions on social. And it was weaponized on the right.
And it started to bleed in. And

Speaker 22 so that for me, that crossed the line. And that's why I'm pushing back.

Speaker 21 That is the way the system works on that side. Look, I was obviously in corporate legacy, mainstream media, whatever you want.

Speaker 21 I had a great career, loved it, have nothing bad to say about my colleagues. But it's like they're fighting or they're trying to tell the truth

Speaker 21 blindfolded to the reality of what's happening to the truth, is what I would say. It was frustrating being in there because Trump has this power of bending reality for people.

Speaker 21 And Fox assists his whole ecosphere assists him in doing that.

Speaker 21 And kind of both sides or the kind of vocabulary that you can use is very difficult to serve the people with still.

Speaker 22 And it's, it's, it's, look, it's,

Speaker 22 and that's not newsworthy in and of itself, what you said. It's spot on, but it's really eroding trust and it's hurting our democracy.
And it's code red.

Speaker 22 And you'd think Fox, who's just the most blatant and just notoriously the most blatant as it relates to being a propaganda network, would have learned that lesson with that $787 million settlement with Dominion.

Speaker 22 But they haven't. And they continue to cover up for the folly and the lies of this president.
And it's one thing for the president to lie.

Speaker 22 He did it just a few moments ago, quite literally, about water in California again and his obsession.

Speaker 22 But you don't cover up for that. You don't willfully and knowingly and maliciously cover up for those lies, edit information and alter

Speaker 22 what you present as fact and defame people. You can't do that.

Speaker 21 Is there something about the past few months?

Speaker 21 in this second term. And I don't want to post facto rationalize what I did.
I wasn't thinking it's too much. It's the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Speaker 21 I thought I was describing accurately a public figure in America.

Speaker 22 By the way,

Speaker 22 few words rung more true than those words. Forgive me.
That's just

Speaker 22 my editorial opinion.

Speaker 21 All right. And I actually, what's worse is it wasn't like a drug tweet.
I actually looked at it and I read it and I thought, yeah, that's true. It's in.
There you go.

Speaker 21 But my point is that there is this hammer blow, this daily bludgeoning of the body politic with cruelty, right?

Speaker 21 And lies at every point demoralizes people. And I've seen you over the past couple of years, it seems.

Speaker 21 One of the things I really respected and enjoyed you doing was crossing over Golda Fox and debating Hannity,

Speaker 21 taking him on and having a good debate with DeSantis.

Speaker 21 People appreciate that, but is there something about the past few months and the Democrats crying out for someone to do something that is part of the background to you pulling what is in some ways a stunt, right?

Speaker 21 This, this lawsuit.

Speaker 22 Yeah, look,

Speaker 22 back to the lawsuit, but let me go back almost three years ago to today because we just celebrated and not celebrated. We lamented the anniversary of the Dobbs decision three years ago.

Speaker 22 And I remember being at Plain Parado in Southern California and LA, saying, where the hell is my party? And it wasn't indictment of individual leaders.

Speaker 22 It wasn't even indictment of the, you know, the DNC. It was sort of, frankly, it was indicted by my own lack of accountability at this moment.

Speaker 22 That the other side was dominating the narrative on CRT and DEI, ESG. They were censoring historic facts, rewriting history, quite literally rewriting social studies books in places like Florida.

Speaker 22 And I was watching the weaponization and the propaganda coming from these networks, not just Fox, Wan American News, Newsmax.

Speaker 22 and how they're able to shape-shift the conversation and how my party, the Democratic Party, Party, was consistently on the defense. And that's where I woke up.
I said, you know what?

Speaker 22 The world we're living in has happened on our watch. Society becomes how we behave.
Take some responsibility, man. And so I decided I needed to actually not just.

Speaker 22 complain about something, I needed to do something. And that's when I started to reach out and went on Fox and I had Hannity.
I said, let's go. Let's go into Ronald Reagan's old

Speaker 22 building, the old governor's mansion where Reagan was. Ask me anything you want.
Let's do an unedited hour, hour and a half interview. And we did that.
And I started to go back on Fox.

Speaker 22 And that's why I ended up. And I appreciate your reference to the debate with Ron DeSantis.
And so I think that's healthy. I thought it was important.

Speaker 22 A lot of my members of my party were critical, saying, why do you even indulge those guys? It's all fake news, et cetera. But I thought it's important to meet people where they are.

Speaker 22 So I say all that in the context of this lawsuit. I have a high threshold for the bullshit on Fox, is the point.
All right. I wouldn't do do this unless I felt they really did cross the line.

Speaker 22 And I don't, it's not about money for a nonprofit. It's about accountability.
I really did hope and expect after that Dominion lawsuit, they would stop, but they haven't.

Speaker 22 And right now, if you're covering up for the cruelty, God bless you, that's the right word, not just the chaos. for the

Speaker 22 abject lies and mistruths of this administration, you can't lay claim to being a news organization any longer. That's what this lawsuit's about.

Speaker 21 I think that is exactly the conundrum that

Speaker 21 my former colleagues across the establishment, legacy, corporate, what mainstream media, whatever you want to call it,

Speaker 21 they are doing their best. I love them, I respect them, they're doing great work, but there's something that's changed in this moment.

Speaker 21 It is a moment in history where it requires a different response, I think. I'm discovering that in myself.

Speaker 21 And I do think that I wonder if one of the things you're trying to do is give heart to people who see this, who are bludgeoned and either on the sidelines, I don't want to get involved.

Speaker 21 They may have even voted for Trump, don't like it, or certainly the people who didn't vote for Trump feeling in despair.

Speaker 21 He is all-powerful, controlling the narrative, and now just bringing the hammer down in every walk of life.

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Speaker 22 Harry, I wish I could show you a video I just got right before we went on from a friend of mine down in San Diego.

Speaker 22 And this young woman torn away from her car by massed men, screaming and yelling, turns out to be a housekeeper at a well-known hotel in Southern California, a member of Local 11, Unite here,

Speaker 22 just ripped. off the streets by mass men.
This is a moral moment. This is happening in America.
You have 5,000 federalized troops. You have the U.S.
military in the streets of Los Angeles in 2025.

Speaker 22 Today,

Speaker 22 I mean, this is, this is, to your point, things have radically changed. You can't operate with the old constructs.

Speaker 22 People talk about, I heard, you know, there's been some punditry, you know, are we moving towards authoritarianism? And it depends which lens, which set of eyes you have.

Speaker 22 How about to that young woman on the street? We're already there.

Speaker 22 For some of us that have more privilege, we're not there yet. And so I want to speak for those folks to your point.
Yeah, for things to change, you've got to change. It's not what happens.

Speaker 22 It's how we respond to what happens. And I need to be held to a higher level of accountability.
And so I appreciate the frame of your question. Yeah, I've changed.
I've changed.

Speaker 22 I changed when those National Guard were federalized.

Speaker 22 I changed when I started to see members of our community torn asunder, terrorized by these raids and people in masks and things that I've never thought I'd see in this country.

Speaker 22 To see people deported, disappeared. I was with a 12-year-old boy, same age as my kids, crying, who lost his mother and father.
They disappeared.

Speaker 22 They went to the same job site they've been going to 20 years in Oxnard, California. And he had no one.
He didn't even know how to get back in his own house. That's Trump's America.

Speaker 22 So when you say those words, Terry, about Stephen Miller, you are goddamn right. Excuse my language.
You were right. And he is wrong.
And it's wrong for us to operate under the old rules.

Speaker 22 Forgive me for being intense about this, but a lot of people are counting on us to do more and be better.

Speaker 21 I respect that intensity. That's where we have to find our courage, right? We have to find it there.
And I appreciate what you're saying.

Speaker 21 about that. I will say that having just gotten back, one of the things, if you don't mind a personal note, the outpouring of

Speaker 21 people signing up for this and actually very, very kind and genuine support for some I didn't, you know, from one perspective, really screwed up, right?

Speaker 21 This is not the way I'd recommend leaving a job. But as I said, I'm kind of exhilarated and excited by the possibilities and by the work ahead, the good work that you're talking about ahead.

Speaker 21 But I do feel that it became for a lot of people

Speaker 21 a galvanizing moment, right?

Speaker 21 A sense that, okay, whatever you think of what he said, including some of my neighbors, I live in a kind of a purple neighborhood in Frederick, Maryland,

Speaker 21 closer to Antietam and Gettysburg than to Washington, D.C.

Speaker 21 And a lot of my neighbors voted for Trump. And one of them in particular, you know, very strong for Trump.
He told my wife, he said, tell your husband.

Speaker 21 You know, I really respect him, I know, what he did was brave. And, you know, look at his social feeds.
He loves that. It was very encouraging for me.
I feel very encouraged.

Speaker 21 But the point of it is, I think the point, the cruelty is the point, to dishearten people, make them amenable to more and more authority. And just one more note in Springfield.

Speaker 21 One of the young Asian men that I spoke with, he had a brain tumor in Haiti. They couldn't help him.
Came to the United States, started working. got on Obamacare,

Speaker 21 got

Speaker 21 the brain tumor operated on, but they had to remove his pituitary gland. So he needs to regulate his hormonal system.

Speaker 21 If they send him back, he'll die. And he said, I don't go out of the house because anyone can wear a mask.
Remember, he's from Haiti. Anyone can wear a mask and put ice on them.

Speaker 21 I don't know if they're kidnappers or if they're the law.

Speaker 21 So there are thousands of people hiding in their homes from the federal government who were until a couple of weeks ago here lawfully, good employees.

Speaker 21 You go ask the businesses down there, the dole plant, the auto machining plants, you ask the mayor and the city council.

Speaker 21 These are good people, the vast majority of them, and they're hiding from our government. That's, to me, a disgrace.

Speaker 22 It is a disgrace, but you've reinforced this point, and I want to amplify the point I think you're making, that the cruelty is the point, but the point being that that demoralization just completely neuters us.

Speaker 22 And we become numb.

Speaker 22 And we no longer are active. We're inert.
And that is exactly what he wants. He wants to crush us into submission.
He wants to overwhelm the shock and odds about overwhelming us.

Speaker 22 And so we cannot maintain neutrality at this time. It was Dante who said the hottest place in hell is reserved in a time of moral crisis for so that maintain their neutrality.

Speaker 22 This is not a neutral moment. And I think, look, this lawsuit, I hope, represents just an expression of that.
I want both to know we're not just going to roll over,

Speaker 22 that we're going to have people's backs, people that may not have a voice, people that may not have the privilege that you and I have to even be able to go on Substack, to be able to have this conversation, to reach a few people that are kind enough to take the time to listen, to know that they matter and we care.

Speaker 22 There are people out there that give a damn. You gave a damn to go back to Springfield and check in with people that

Speaker 22 were used purely as a political,

Speaker 22 you know, political fodder that were used as subjects, not human beings, and to humanize them.

Speaker 22 That's important, and it's more important now than ever.

Speaker 22 So, look, I think it's in that same spirit that we initiated this lawsuit and same spirit to which we're pushing back against these authoritarian tendencies

Speaker 22 in Trumpism.

Speaker 21 Can I ask you before

Speaker 21 we move on?

Speaker 21 The New York mayoral primary,

Speaker 21 with Mamdani winning and Cuomo going down to defeat, a lot of Democrats are seeing that as a signal of a new direction.

Speaker 21 A lot of other Democrats are saying, no, this is maybe New York City, but it would not work in other parts of the country. How do you read that politically?

Speaker 22 I think

Speaker 22 my experience in this respect is we tend to

Speaker 22 overstate in the short term

Speaker 22 lessons learned or we extrapolate lessons that frankly just reinforce our own pre-existing biases of what this means or what this doesn't mean.

Speaker 22 But

Speaker 22 to

Speaker 22 the credit of Mandani, this was a hell of a campaign.

Speaker 22 I mean, you know, you could distinguish the message from the messenger, but his ability to galvanize and to organize, to use the tools of technology, new media,

Speaker 22 to

Speaker 22 create a...

Speaker 22 I thought a personality that even if he disagreed, you kind of had a little more trust in was rather extraordinary. And so from that perspective, in the power of emulation, success leaves some clues.

Speaker 22 Now, what this means ultimately for the Democratic Party,

Speaker 22 was this really a repudiation of Cuomo came in with a lot of baggage? Was this more parochial politics in the context of just one American city, though? the largest, is to be determined.

Speaker 22 But I think it's one thing I think it is, is a giant wake-up call that democracy is still alive and well, bottom-up. And if you're looking at this for the the prism,

Speaker 22 I think particularly, Speaker Johnson,

Speaker 22 you're recognizing you got 18 months left. And if you're looking at this as Susie Wiles, the chief of staff of the president, your administration ends in 18 months.
We're going to take back the House.

Speaker 22 We're seeing young people reawaken here. They haven't gotten the message about the cynicism yet.
They're still engaged.

Speaker 22 And for me, that was really the most compelling takeaway from what occurred last week.

Speaker 21 Well, that is a great positive hardening end because people are looking for something to look forward to. The good hard work of saving the country, right?

Speaker 22 Saving the country. Look,

Speaker 22 one cannot overstate.

Speaker 22 That simple statement that you just made. And the Supreme Court made it more challenging today.

Speaker 22 Look, we just cannot live in the divided states of America any longer.

Speaker 22 I'm sort of of paraphrasing Bill Clinton. You can't, you know, divorce is not an option.
We're going to have to define the terms of the future to live and advance together across our differences. And

Speaker 22 I think

Speaker 22 one thing people need to see is other people's courage. And for those people that turned out and voted,

Speaker 22 that's an act of citizenship. And the office of citizen right now is the most important office of all.
And I think for all the assaults on institutions, that's the institution that will endure.

Speaker 22 And that's what gives me hope and optimism. All right.

Speaker 21 Well, great.

Speaker 21 Thanks very much. This was fun.

Speaker 22 This was fun, Tara. Thanks for having me on.
And congrats on everything. Keep doing what you're doing.

Speaker 21 Thank you. Thank you.
Good luck. Good luck in court.

Speaker 22 Thank you.

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