And, This is More With Dr. Phil - Is Free Speech Under Attack?

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This is Gavin Newsom.

And tune in for more with Dr.

Phil.

Well, look, I appreciate everything you said, but I also appreciate the spirit

behind it.

And I think, look, it's one of the reasons we started this podcast.

And it's been really interesting, Dr.

Phil.

It's really underscored the nature of, and you've talked a lot about cancel culture and this incapacity to

be willing to engage people you may disagree with.

And as you say, focus on the things we have in common.

But it's interesting how quick people are to judge and how quickly we are all judged.

I imagine just the response you got coming out of that Madison Square Garden

rally.

I imagine just now you're sort of foray with ICE and maybe just a little bit more into the political realm, how quick people are to judge.

And so I think it's incredibly important because divorce is not an option.

We're all in this together.

And,

you know, it's becoming more and more exhausting.

And as you have rightfully highlighted, you did it in your book, We've Got Issues, the nature of social media and algorithms, and what's going on in terms of how things have become weaponized and how we are increasingly feeling out of control, isolated, disconnected from a larger sense of purpose, meaning, all the things you've been talking about on your show and the work you've been doing.

And so, just on that, what more can we be doing?

What can we be doing to soften the edges?

of this discourse and begin the process of

being repairs, proverbially, the breach.

Do you think freedom of speech is under attack?

I think it is.

And I've made this point.

One of the reasons I have long admired Bill Maher and gone on his show a dozen times since my mayor days is I didn't like the way he was being attacked, the freedom of speech, his expression was being attacked on my own UC campuses.

I've watched cancel culture.

been a champion of cancel culture.

Of course, I've seen it on all sides.

We saw it with Bud Light.

We saw it with Target last year.

You know, know, it occurs.

You know, there's boycotts all the time coming from both prisms, the political parties, but

I think it's out of control.

And I think it's something we need to push back against and we need to own up to.

You know, it seems to be worse in California than I've moved back to Texas and

no place is perfect, but

I see things like

What was it, Berkeley, where

Ann Coulter got canceled?

They said it was for security concerns.

You can always have security.

But

that Milo guy, I can't remember his name.

I remember sort of the peak of that cancel

culture.

Why do you think that is?

When I went to school a long time ago,

but we always, if somebody was coming that we disagreed with,

I always wanted to go hear what they had to say.

So I had ammunition

to debate them with or

their positions with.

And you never grow until you disprove yourself, until you find something wrong with the way you look at it.

But it seems like in California,

we've got the heckler's veto.

It's like boo them down or block them from coming.

And I see it at

Berkeley, UCLA, USC.

And it just seems seems like, how are we ever going to broaden our perspectives if we don't get out of the bubble and at least listen to the other side?

You may find out that's exactly why I don't agree with that SOB.

Exactly.

You've got to hear them to do it.

I couldn't agree with you more.

It needs to be called out.

I've been trying to do what I can on that.

I mean, be candid, that's why I've been calling out all these book bans.

4,240 books and titles were banned last year in this country.

I mean, we're censoring, you know, speech in the boardroom, not just in the classroom.

You've got folks are rewriting history.

You've talked a lot about that, but on both sides of the aisle.

I mean, they were trying to, one textbook in Florida tried to take out Rosa Park's race and said, oh, no, she was just a woman who wanted to move, needed to move her seat.

So I think we have to own up to this.

And I think, again, there's

plenty of fingers to point.

or at least plenty of people that we can point to, but all of us need to look in the mirror on this issue.

I agree with you.

Has California taken a position on transgender athletes?

I hadn't seen what the latest...

Well, it did in 2013.

In 2013, Governor Brown signed a bill allowing for

people to participate.

As you know,

that issue is very raw and emotional, and it's obviously very pointed at this moment because of some state championships.

There was two bills in the California legislature, Dr.

Phil, just a few weeks ago.

Neither got out of the committee to change that rule.

So it currently is law in the state of California.

And CIF that does the intercollegiate founding, you know, does all the sports, they're trying to find some accommodation that addresses the legitimate concerns around fairness.

And I say legitimate concerns about fairness,

and make sure that those that may have been displaced because

they were outperformed by a transgender athlete have the opportunity to still participate

and be recognized for that participation.

We're also just trying to balance some grace, some humility, some humanity, particularly with transgender youth that just want to survive and don't want to be belittled.

and demeaned at the same time.

So it's a very tough issue.

And I know you've tackled that issue.

I think you've done it reasonably thoughtfully.

I think you've tried to find the nuances here, but it's an incredibly difficult issue.

And I say this as someone who's been an advocate for trans rights, but I do not think it's fair in these athletic competitions.

And I've made that point of view very, very public.

Well, this is one of the things where I say that I believe that

activists are pushing an agenda.

And I've had so many

transgender individuals on the show

over the last 25 years.

And I can tell you that they have said to me

on the air and off,

mostly off the air,

that They wish those people would shut up.

These shrill activists that are pushing these extreme positions, they're not speaking for us.

They're not speaking for the community at large.

And

they say, look, we're living our lives, and there are enough challenges as it is without them pushing these

extreme controversial issues.

that we don't particularly ascribe to.

They're not helping us.

That's something that they're just trying to rewrite biology on or they're trying to make

a battleground.

And

they do it effectively.

I had Professor Carol Hooven on from University, Harvard University.

And

she didn't even do the research.

She was just reporting, did a meta-analysis on, I think it was 50-plus studies

of others that had looked at the the biological markers to see whether or not you could balance the playing field among elite athletes and

she looked at

if you have testosterone blockers if you have hormone suppression therapy and

for the required two years before and after poverty, looked at puberty, puberty, looked at every possible way.

And the meta-analysis conclusion for good methodology with good N,

you know, right number of subjects, and they concluded you just can't get there.

I mean, even if it's 10%

difference in swimming competition among elite athletes, as you know,

they measure that by hundredths of a second off a fingernail touching the wall uh and in a four lap race uh 10

they can be down there kicking off the wall and they're standing there with their arms crossed waiting for them to make the last lap no i wasn't one of the what wasn't the one and is is and forgive me is wasn't she admonished by the administration over there as well for just concluding those completely drummed out of the university yeah they're transphobic yeah uh spawning hate speech yeah

Well, doctor, trust me, I know a thing or two about this.

I expressed my point of view.

I lost a few.

I don't need to, we don't need to have a public therapy session here, but I lost some good friends.

I mean, they're just, they won't talk to me.

They're done.

And, you know, I appreciate they felt hurt.

They felt that a point of view was

somehow diminishing.

As someone who's been.

an advocate that I put up against any other elected official.

I mean, I have a very strong record, as you know.

I think the first time I was on your show was on the issue of LGBT rights.

And I've been an advocate for decades and decades, but on the issue of sports and what you just, you know, you laid out as it relates to

many different factors that are unique

for regardless of puberty brokers,

I just think this issue we have to address.

And to not address, we are in denial.

Well, that's a good point because I remember when you were there and you and I agreed on that.

We were both advocates for LGBTQ

rights, but

this is a bridge too far.

You have

these

elite athletes.

These are kids that get up

oftentimes

an hour or two before school.

I mean, they're up at four and five o'clock in the morning working out before school for years.

Oh, yeah.

And then all of a sudden, somebody steps in and bumps them out of the competition.

And it's, I hate to see that.

Yeah.

Well, which I got four young kids, all athletes, wife who

played for the junior national soccer team.

I got into college,

only got into a four-year college because of sports.

And it's in many ways the reason I'm here.

So I deeply appreciate how resonant this issue and passionate this issue is.

At the same time, you know,

it's, I I humbly submit, Doctor, that I think it's been weaponized by some groups.

I'm not suggesting by any stretch you have.

I think I've listened to you on this topic, and I think you've tried to be very thoughtful on it.

Others, though, are a little less thoughtful and have used this in a way that I don't think advanced the larger call that I think you and I are calling for.

And that's just finding our common humanity and try to unify with, as you suggest, common sense.

Yeah, and the sad thing is, I think

it's kind of identity politics.

If you don't agree with everything,

you're immediately labeled transphobic.

And I think they lose some very strong advocates by throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Well, and I'd be in that category.

And anyone who suggests that,

that is, they don't know

who I am, what I've done.

And so I'm very sensitive to the point you just made.

And I certainly appreciate it.

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Just on the issues of broader issues that I think just in the spirit of this conversation,

you know, when you wrote this book, We've Got Issues,

was this sort of the gateway to the new media

company?

Was this sort of the transition book?

What, I mean,

you haven't transitioned on your passion for family as sort of the core unit

in faith as well, which I appreciate your commitment to faith, including your new role under the Trump administration.

Just tell us a little bit more in the spirit of that book,

what you're trying to achieve.

You know,

I've always thought, you know, it's funny,

they talk about the general category of talk show, and

it's really interesting that

if you're going to be successful, they really should probably call it listening show

because if you don't listen to your audience and let them tell you

what you need to focus on, you're not going to last very long.

And we always refer to Hollywood as a 13-week town.

And if you get 13 weeks in Hollywood, you're lucky.

And

I was on for 21 years and they wanted me to renew for three more when I said, no, I'm going to go do my own thing.

And

there was a difference because across those 21 years,

very unusually,

I owned my own show, which as you probably know, that's very rare in Hollywood.

The network likes to own the show.

But I owned my own show.

So I did 3,800 shows and I owned them lock, stock, and barrel.

So that whole library

is something I own.

And most of those shows are pretty evergreen.

And

across time,

I had a great staff.

And for the whole 21 years, I had

one executive producer.

I had

five supervising producers that were there

pretty much the whole time.

I had the same seven cameramen for 21 years.

I've had the same secretary, or they changed what they call them across the years.

She's been with me 45 years.

So, I mean, I've had the same team around me.

I'm so blessed to have them.

And

things change, Governor.

Think about this.

I started in 02

and the first text message had never been sent when I started.

And think how much things have changed.

And like 08, 09

is when they started dropping smartphones on all of us.

And I think that's the biggest change in our civilization since the Industrial Revolution.

And I know there were kind of four industrial revolutions kind of jammed together there, but I think this was the biggest change since mechanization.

And by the way, just speaking of jammed together, I remember being jammed together right there at the Moscone Center in San Francisco in January of 2007 when Steve Jobs comes out with some damn device.

Little did we know, but what hit, I'll never forget, it wasn't the device.

It was that damn app store

in July of 2008 that, to your point, changed everything in more ways on more days.

Well, you know, kids were going through life like this, and then all of a sudden they they were going through like this.

And

we listened, and, you know, for example,

the words cyber and bully had never been used together in the same sentence because there was no such thing.

And then all of a sudden, I had to start dealing with cyber bullying.

And in fact, I went to Capitol Hill.

They asked me to come testify on reauthorization of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act.

And a lot of my testimony was about

you have to start allocating some funds to dealing with cyberbullying because it's become bullies used to be in the lunchroom or the gym or the bus docks, but now these bullies follow the children home.

They can't get away from it.

And

we have to start educating our teachers and

start

making preparations to deal with this because kids are killing themselves and

online predators are getting to our children.

And so, you know, it started evolving and changing.

And

I had to evolve and change with it.

And

I remember the first interview I ever gave about the Dr.

Phil show, Roger King, who was, you know, the biggest force in syndication.

He asked me one day without giving me any warning, he was going to make a sizzle reel to go out and sell the show.

And he said, okay, Doc, what's the show going to be about?

And I'm like, oh, a little

caught short.

And I remember saying,

I'm going to talk about things that matter to people who care.

And I want to deliver common sense, usable information to people's homes every day for free.

Hard to argue with that.

If that doesn't work, then I was busy

when you called me.

And

I've followed that formula all along.

And

when I sat down to write

We've Got Issues,

it was in reaction to hearing my audience move.

I think that's my 11th book or 10th book.

I said I was going to write another book and then I wrote that one.

And it was from listening to them and they were becoming much more socially conscious.

Whereas, you know, early on, I was focusing on marriage and family and individual psychological functioning and

all of those sorts of individual issues.

But

I saw it change to

start to include things like cyberbullying and predators and online scams and

things like that.

And then of late, I saw them start to

really become much more socially conscious about psychosocial issues.

And I think it's because they were on the internet all the time.

They were reading things that, you know, eight, nine years earlier, they just weren't available to read.

And that's when I say I started being aware that, like,

some, let's say you had some crazy conspiracy theory, some guy in Omaha or something.

Well, that wouldn't spread very far because he didn't have the ability to reach anyone.

But it's estimated right now that there are between five and ten thousand cults active in the United States of America

because they operate online.

They solicit money online.

They get followers online.

Then they might have an annual meeting and recruit people in the real world to come to some compound or whatever.

And so I started seeing how people were concerned about what was going on at school

and

what was being taught at school.

Was critical race theory being taught?

Should it be taught?

Should parents be notified if their children

were wanting to change their pronouns?

And there were pros and cons about that.

I think parents know their kids the best and deserve to know what's going on with them.

But people react to that like there's this massive movement in the schools uh to recruit people

children into

transgenderism

that's just not true it just

it is a minuscule number of cases in which that's happening and they they talk like this there's this huge recruitment um

it isn't true I do think parents should be involved.

And

those on the other side of the issue say, well,

there are a lot of parents who don't react well to that.

And so the kids can get kicked to the curb or whatever if they take that home.

Well,

that's why we have the Department of Child and Family Services.

That's why we have

these social services to support that.

If they got some mouth breather parent who doesn't stand by their child

or

whatever.

So there are two sides to the issue.

I get that, but they weren't talking about these things before.

And now they were.

And that's what moved me to

we've got issues.

We've got issues in what's going on in the school.

We've got issues

regarding our economy.

And people talk about we have this inequality of income.

I think the problem is we have a quality of income.

If you look at all the giveaway programs, and I hear people talking about they want a quality of outcome versus the quality of opportunity.

Yeah, no, those are things I'm trying to count me out on the outcome side.

Yeah, no, it's about the opportunity.

We could talk about some of the tax breaks as well,

some of the carrying interest is on those subsidies as well.

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Be honest, how many tabs do you have open right now?

Too many?

Sounds like you need Close All Tabs from KQED, where I, Morgan Sung, Doom Scroll so you don't have to.

Every week, we scour the internet to bring you deep dives that explain how the digital world connects and divides us all.

Everyone's cooped up in their house.

I will talk to this robot.

If you're a truly engaged activist, the government already has data on you.

Driverless cars are going to mess up in ways that humans wouldn't.

Listen to Close All Tabs wherever you get your podcasts.

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Look, there's so much, Doctor, to talk about, and I appreciate the spirit to which you've engaged with me and our audience.

And one of the things I loved about your book, which I did have a chance to read, but more importantly, there's a lot of good life lessons in there.

And

one of those statements that you made in the book that sort of spoke to me is be who you are on purpose, which is a good way to describe you, this notion of intentionality.

But I think that's an important life lesson is to be authentic, learn from, don't follow others,

have some humility and grace, but stand your ground, but also recognize we need to find common ground.

And I hope we found a little of it today.

And I appreciate your efforts to try to find more of that with Merit Street Media.

Well, I appreciate having the opportunity to talk about these things.

I think,

like I say, you and I might be on the different side of certain issues and the same side on certain issues.

But I think if people could sit down and have civil conversations like this, I mean, that's what it's all about to me.

I think it's important to do.

And I'm glad you're doing this podcast.

I think people get to hear from you and get to know you better.

And I think it's...

I think people are interested in doing that and in knowing you.

And I think it's a courageous thing to do because

when you open up an unscripted conversation like this,

that's a courageous thing to do.

It's not campaign speak.

It's just letting people get to know you.

And you dodged my question.

Are you going to run in 2018?

That's fate.

We'll determine that.

But we'll see, Doctor.

You know better than anybody as a former California residence.

I got got my handful in the next year and a half, couple years.

You're not ruling it out.

I don't, I mean, you're not ruling anything out about your future either.

So we'll leave it at that.

I appreciate you spending time and I'm very grateful, particularly

considering where the heck you are and all the other folks that are there that are vying for your time and attention.

So thank you.

Anytime, anytime I can spend time with you,

I'm proud to do it, honored to do it.

And

I'll be inviting you to be on my podcast soon, and we'll talk about that and have you weigh in on some

big issues.

And

I hope we can do this again and do it soon.

I look forward to it.

Thank you so much.

Governor, thank you.

Best to you.

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Every week, we scour the internet to bring you deep dives that explain how the digital world connects and divides us all.

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I will talk to this robot.

If you're a truly engaged activist, the government already has data on you.

Driverless cars are going to mess up in ways that humans wouldn't.

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Song stands about an obsessed fan who's taking me too literal.

From Eminem and the producers of 8 Mile.

Never seen anything like Eminem fans.

This is the story of a fan base.

I had to look in the mirror and be like, am I one of these crazy stands?

That created a culture.

I do have an addiction to Eminem.

I traveled the world for him.

Without Eminem, I wouldn't have the life I have right now.

What's your first question?

Stands.

New documentary streaming August 26th on Paramount Plus.

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This is an iHeart podcast.