And, This is How Conflict Sells Tickets With Dr. Phil

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This is Gavin Newsom.

And this is Dr.

Phil McGraw.

Well, I appreciate you coming on, Dr.

Phil.

And

I've been eager to have this conversation because I've been watching a number of your conversations.

You've been having some very public conversations, but also just in the media, and obviously now with your own new Merit Street media enterprise, it's really interesting to read the punditry and try to read between the lines.

What's Dr.

Phil up to?

Is this a big shift to the right?

Or is he just self-actualizing a little bit more in terms of his personal points of view?

Or is it completely consistent with a person we watched for 21 years on daytime TV?

What's your overall sentiment around the independent analysis and punditry about all things, Dr.

Phil, right now?

Well, you know, Governor, I'm glad you asked that question because I have to say, I'm probably the

least political person I know, although I have certainly been painted with that brush

of late and not completely

hard to understand.

And I say that I'm not political

because I deal with cultural issues, psychosocial issues.

And

I differentiate that from politics because

frankly, I'm not very sophisticated in the political arena.

I don't know a lot about it.

You know, know, I can watch that after-school special about how

a bill becomes a law and all of that.

And I learn something every time I watch it again.

And I'm not,

I'm not, that's not false humility.

I really don't

understand politics.

I certainly don't understand geopolitics

on the international stage.

And I really don't seek to.

I really am focusing on cultural issues and politicians talk about cultural issues a lot.

And so that creates an intersection

of content and values.

And to me, when I'm focusing on those issues, those values,

I could care less whether somebody is a Democrat or a Republican.

I'm not sure there's a whole lot of difference when we really boil it down

to where people really stand.

I don't think we're nearly as divided

as I think the legacy media would lead us to believe we are.

And so really,

I'm of a strong belief that

the strength of any culture, any society lies in the family.

And I think family and family values have been under attack

in America.

I wrote a book in 2004 called Family First.

And I said in that book that I thought family in America was under attack.

And I certainly think family values

have been increasingly under attack.

And

admittedly, a lot of that attack, I think, is coming from the

extreme left, from

what I think are the,

what I call the tyranny of the fringe.

It's not really mainstream America on either side of the aisle.

I think it's

from

really extreme activists.

And I don't think they really represent

the mainstream on either side of the aisle.

So

I think we've got the tail wagging the dog on a lot of these cultural issues, to tell you the truth.

I appreciate it.

I want to go back to

your consistency on

the notion of family and the challenges there.

And I'm curious, just over the last

few decades, I imagine people tried to pull you in 20 years ago, pull you into their campaigns, pull you into their rallies, pull you into their point of view.

Were you tempted 10 years ago

to find your way into this?

Or have you really always tried to sort of maintain a status above and sort of separate and above?

I've always tried to stay out of it.

You know, people made a lot of it when I went to the Trump rally at Madison Square Garden, you know, this time around.

But if

people listen to what I said,

I started my comments and remarks during that

appearance by saying,

I'm not here to endorse President Trump.

I don't agree with everything he says or everything he does.

I said the first things out of my mouth.

If you go back and listen to what I said, is I'm not here to endorse him.

I don't agree with everything he says and does.

What I don't like is people bullying those and ostracizing those

who do support and say they're going to vote for him.

And I said, I'll give this identical speech at a Harris rally

and volunteered to do so.

And they actually contacted me and talked to me about doing exactly that.

And I said, absolutely.

Let me know when, let me know where.

gave them all the contact information to set it up and then they didn't follow up on it after that.

But I wanted to speak at that one of those events as well.

I think we need

to talk to each other.

I think we need

a dialogue that we're not having.

And if we stay in our bubble, I don't think we're ever going to get

a unity in this country.

And

I appreciate that.

I will say, having listened to the speech, I don't think you would have referred to Kamala as a tough old boot.

No, I wouldn't have done that.

I would have changed that line for sure.

There'd be a few lines.

By the way,

was it the president himself that reached out directly to you to get you to speak at that rally, or was it members of the campaign team?

Were they aggressively seeking your participation?

They were.

And, you know, I had already interviewed President Trump, and I've known him for 20 years.

I haven't spent a lot of time with him, but I've known him for a long time.

And

I'd interviewed him for my show in the past and

had known him, like I say, not well, but had known him personally away from television and away from all that.

But his team asked me to come and interview him.

And I had asked to interview him when he was during running his campaign and he agreed.

And then they asked me to make an appearance there.

And

I said I would, but I'll decide what I say.

And it will probably be different from what you hear from everybody else.

And

they said that's okay.

They agreed.

No, well, it's, I mean, it's, it's, you know, the answer is no unless you ask.

And so I certainly appreciate

the fact that they were able to diversify the number of voices that were participating in not only those rallies, but

some a little more toxic than others, including at that rally, sort of infamously.

So how about you?

Are you going to run in 28?

Well,

just you're jumping right into that.

I want to jump first, though, into what you just launched, which was Merit Street Media.

And so after 21 ridiculously successful years

running your own show,

you decided to move and did this pivot.

And you did it as well, writing a book that goes to a lot of the issues that you're raising,

including on the issue of family called We've Got Issues.

But tell us a little bit more, because I'm not sure everybody is fully familiar with this larger media company, not just sort of the work you're doing as a host yourself, but what you're trying to achieve at Merritt Street.

Well,

you know, I did spend 21 years

at CBS, and I have to say, it

was a wonderful experience.

And

I made wonderful relationships at CBS.

They'll forever be

a warm place in my heart and

got nothing but good things to say

about my experience there.

I was

led their daytime lineup.

Of course, it was syndicated, so they weren't all CBS stations, but that was my primary station group.

I had

great

primetime shows on CBS as well, and are working on some with them now.

We're still in business together.

But

I wanted to do

more than that.

I felt like

an hour a day

was not

enough time to really do the things that I felt like I wanted to do

because I was not comfortable and was very troubled by a lot of what I was seeing going on

in this country.

And

I'll tell you a story.

I was

sitting in our kitchen in California where we were living at the time.

And I was flipping back and forth.

Robin and I were sitting there having dinner and we were kind of flipping back and forth and going from one kind of news channel to another news channel to another news channel.

And I was really frustrated by saying, you know, this is so much

propaganda, so much spin.

You can't really tell.

You'd be on one channel and flip to another and they're talking about the same events or incidents.

And you can't even tell they're talking about the same thing.

Amen.

Because they're spending it so much.

Yep.

And I said, you know,

this just drives me crazy.

The media is driving me crazy.

Why won't they just tell you what happened?

And without even looking up from dinner, she said, well, why don't you do something about it?

You are the media.

And she said, your ratings are bigger than both of them combined.

Why don't you do something about it?

And, you know, that was really the genesis of it because.

I wanted to own the debate lane in America.

I wanted to have a platform where I could bring two sides together or three sides or four sides

if necessary

to give people the facts and let them make up their own mind.

And you know, because it's such a big issue in California, homelessness, for example.

There are more than two sides to homelessness.

People have different theories about how to resolve this.

You know, Why is

housing so expensive?

Do you do home first?

Or do you work on getting people back on their feet and they earn their right

to be given housing and shelter?

Or is that a fundamental human right?

You know, there are different sides to those issues.

You think, well, you know, how could you be debating over that?

But there are hugely passionate,

different sides on even that issue.

And I do give both sides a chance to talk about that.

And we have great and intelligent decisions.

Right now, this Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

I've taken very bold positions on that.

And it's...

It is astounding to me.

I am hearing things

on our college campuses that I never thought I would hear in my lifetime.

The anti-Semitism that I'm hearing.

And I have given a platform to,

at one time it was pro-Palestinian, now it's pro-Hamas.

It's just straight up demonstrations in favor of a terrorist group that has killed 48 Americans since its formation in the early 1980s.

And I find that difficult to understand

how we have young American students

protesting for Hamas, which is a terrorist group that has killed Americans and until recently was holding American hostages.

They still have four that are not alive.

But the last American hostage was just released in Hidan Alexander.

And I spoke with his parents the next morning on the air and had a wonderful celebratory interview with them.

And I'm hearing things on these campuses that tell me that we're just not teaching critical thinking among our young people anymore.

And that's very troubling to me.

So, and I've given a voice to those and been criticized for giving a voice to the pro-Palestinian, pro-Hamas side.

But I think people need to hear what they think and how committed they are and how misguided I believe they are.

But I do give them a voice so people understand what we're up against.

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Not that I stress tested

what you've been saying along these lines, not specific to the conflict in the Middle East, but more broadly about trying to find a lane, a little bit more balance.

I watched specifically your 100-day analysis of the Trump administration, and I thought it was extraordinarily fair.

You made some points that were, you know, were very not revelatory to me, but I thought important to make, particularly on the issue of immigration, of which you've received criticism.

At the same time, you're hardly anti-immigrant, but you made a point.

on that 100-day show that I think underscores the point you're trying to make.

And that is what is omitted often in our discourse, particularly in some of these platforms and these cable shows, is the fact that the Biden administration was deporting, has been, at least through a period that marked, I think, around February, more people were being deported under the Biden administration than even the Trump administration.

Not something you see necessarily on

some of these cable shows, in order to sort of highlight and reinforce the importance of not just misinformation or disinformation, but what is omitted from our conversation?

No, we're listening we're embedded with

ICE and they've allowed us full access at Merit TV.

And let me tell you, when I say full access,

there are no guidelines.

Now,

to be completely fair, there are some rules.

in terms of not disclosing certain investigatory techniques that they have.

But other than not disclosing things that might put agents' lives in danger,

there are no rules.

We can show every case.

They're not cherry-picked cases,

and we're able to show everything that is going on.

And I just watched the mischaracterization and I've come to know Tom Holman very well.

This is a very

sincere and compassionate man.

And, you know, they have three primary goals.

Number one is the worst first.

They talk about

these cable networks talk about they're going in and sweeping neighborhoods and

kind of anybody with a tan is subject to getting picked up.

That is absolutely not true.

I have seen that they are going after the worst first, that they build a file.

They know where these people are.

They know what they're guilty of doing, and they target them.

These are targeted

arrest warrants that they're executing and taking these people out.

So that's their number one goal.

They wanted to close the border.

They've effectively done that.

And then number three is to find the missing children.

because there are hundreds of thousands of children that have gone missing.

Many are known

to be sold into the sex trade or the forced labor trade.

And those children need to be rescued.

Now, some of them have found their way to family that is already here, but I fear there are

probably a couple of hundred thousand that are being forced into lives that are horrendous and that they don't want to be in.

And those are their three primary objectives.

And I hear these, they're just outright misinformation about what they're doing.

And

if you've seen interviews I've done with Tom Holman, I ask him straight up, are you raiding schools and taking children out of school so they can be deported?

Are you sitting on doctors' offices and hospitals to catch these people when they go to get uh health care?

Or are you going after the worst first?

And I ask the hard questions questions and they give me straight up answers and the support for those answers.

I'm very pro-immigration.

Look, our birth rate has dropped below what we need

infrastructure-wise to

sustain our infrastructure here.

We need a birth rate of 2.1 and we've dropped to a little below 1.6.

We better get immigrants into this country.

We need the talent.

We need

the diversity.

We need the headcount and the birth rate.

We desperately need immigrants in this country, but there's a right way and a wrong way to do it.

I look at America as my home, and I wouldn't let anybody into my house if I didn't know who they were, would you?

I don't think anybody would, but we've done that.

We've let millions of people into this country without knowing who they are.

And clearly, some of those are on a terror watch list, and they're here now.

And

I think everything you said, Dr.

Phil,

I think the vast majority of people would find particularly rational.

But you have to acknowledge, and

I don't say this lightly.

I say this with intimate familiarity.

I mean, we've had quote-unquote wellness checks in the public schools.

We've had some folks that are going to immigration courts that are being picked up in and around immigration courts.

There's been a chilling impact across the country, not just in states like California, had a lot of day laborers picked up in California, we had a federal judge intervene under a lawsuit and actually admonished

some of the Border Patrol for their activities in respect to that or ICE.

But

I do appreciate there's an intensity of anxiety and a lot of rhetoric that is thrown around that is not nuanced.

And I don't know that the president himself is aiding and embedding in finding some common ground here.

He uses some pretty extreme language, which I think kind of chills the conversation and chills, I think, our capacity to sort of find some common ground on legitimate concerns around border security and thoughtful and comprehensive strategies to get the best and the brightest from around the world.

Well, I think there's a right way and a wrong way to get into the country.

And

I don't think these people are being picked up that are here legally.

And if they are here legally,

then they don't have anything to worry about.

If they came in illegally, not at a point of entry,

then they are subject to being removed.

That in and of itself is a crime, is it not?

No, and I'm not denying that, but you ask, I mean, and again, I'm not looking to get a debate about immigration policy.

I'm just seeing some nuance in terms of the language and I think some of the rhetoric and the reality on the ground as someone that is on the ground addressing some of that reality.

It's not just the worst first.

That may be the policy, but that's not necessarily the practice.

As it relates to those that are here without documentation, I mean, you know, you've got folks from Newt Gingrich that was supporting amnesty in 1985, Reagan himself that did the amnesty bill shortly thereafter.

And

obviously, we've got to address those that have been here for decades.

I don't imagine we want to get all of them because they're quote unhappy here illegally and send them and deport them all back.

I do not imagine you're arguing for that.

No, but here's the thing.

And

let me argue another side of this.

We've got an immigration court that is horribly dysfunctional.

It takes seven, eight years

court date.

And that is a broken system.

We need to fix that.

100%.

When you've got somebody that maybe they have a legitimate reason, a compelling reason to get out of their home country for safety reasons, for fear of

violence from gangs or whatever.

And so they make application to go to the United States and we say, great, you know,

here's a court date

in 2032.

Well, I'm sorry, I got people coming by my house threatening to cut off my arms and legs on a daily basis.

2032 doesn't really work for me.

We've got to fix that.

I 100% acknowledge that.

On the other hand, if we've got people that are here illegally, they're either here legally or they're not here legally.

And so we have to take some ownership in the fact that we've got a broken system for getting process into this country.

Doesn't change the fact that we have people that are here illegally.

And most of them are not fleeing.

They're here fleeing violence.

They're here for economic reasons.

And this is the greatest country in the world.

Of course,

if I was in El Salvador or somewhere and had a dirt floor and pennies a day for wages, would I want to be in America?

Of course, I would want to be in America.

We've got to do some things on our end to make this more functional.

I agree with that.

And

I hate these sanctuary guidelines where they will not cooperate with ICE agents to get someone that is currently in custody, which means they've broken the law and local law enforcement has had reason to pick them up and

detain them.

If you tell ICE about that and they can come get them and take them out at that point, you're going to have a whole lot less of the people you're talking about get arrested when they go into the community.

Then you have one ICE agent on one bad actor and they're gone.

If they have to go into the neighborhood, they're going to arrest that person and they're going to check everybody that's around them.

And that's

as you knew, Dr.

Phil, I mean, in California, I can only speak for myself as governor.

We've cooperated in that respect with folks that are in custody in state prisons over 10,000 specific examples of that kind of cooperation.

So not a lot of daylight on that.

I guess I'm just more concerned about the larger rhetoric that everyone's here, quote unquote, illegally, which I get on the technical terms, but the notion of what the heck we do about it.

I agree with you on comprehensive need for comprehensive reforms.

I think the asylum system is broken.

There's been all kinds of bills rejected by both parties.

to address this issue.

There was a bipartisan immigration package that Rubio himself, among many others, supported to deal with immigration backlogs and judges and address some of those concerns, but they seem to get just watered down or eliminated because of the toxicity of our politics.

And that's my concern now: how the hell do we soften that edge, which I think you want, so we can find unity and common ground and unify the country, which you talk a lot about.

But how do we begin to do that in a more rational way?

I mean, I think rhetoric still matters, does it not?

Words are powerful.

Yeah, words are absolutely powerful.

And, you know,

I see things happening

and

I see it a lot with the death threats and hate speech and rhetoric that I get when I come out

and condemn what happened on October 7th in Israel.

And by the way, just for the record, I flew to Israel right after the 7th.

and met with leadership.

We actually brought a hospital, a field hospital with us.

So I appreciate that condemnation.

Wanna make that clear.

Well, I know you made that trip, and I was so glad to see you do that.

I spent 21 years in California, and I was proud to see

you take the initiative to do that because you didn't have to do that.

And

when

I say words are powerful,

but thank you for doing that.

I didn't finish my sentence.

Thank you for doing that.

I think the rhetoric has gotten way out of control.

When you shoot

two people

on the street in Washington, D.C., outside

a museum,

Milgram, the young woman,

She grew up in Overland Park, Kansas.

I mean, this is not an activist that

is really out driving the story here.

And

the young man

was an Israeli Christian,

for God's sakes.

And they killed these two people and then start yelling, free Palestine, free Palestine.

Can I say that

those shootings were due to

out of control and fiery rhetoric.

I have no proof for that.

And I don't make claims if I don't have empirical evidence to support it, but common sense suggests that

this kind of rhetoric that

people that maybe were deranged to begin with, marginalized to begin with, looking for a cause, celebrate,

this same individual was active with BLM before this.

So, you know, was that the cause at the time?

Now, this is the bandwagon that he's jumping on.

It just makes it easy for people to get involved in.

And

we've got to tone down the rhetoric.

And when you see Harvard and UPenn and Columbia University, the leadership there

not only

condoning,

but in some ways, I think, enabling and empowering this.

I think we've lost our way.

I mean,

these people, these young people, I think, are being agitated from the outside

as well as the inside.

And this isn't free speech, Governor.

This has gone beyond that.

I was on the UCLA campus when they took down the encampment there.

I talked to

those protesters there.

And was there hate speech?

Yes, but it was still speech.

But I also saw them surrounding

Jewish students and not allowing them to move across campus.

Some were assaulted.

They occupied and defected and vandalized buildings.

And by the way, Dr.

Phil, just for the record, out of so much frustration, we had to send the California Highway Patrol in because they were not enforcing these laws and they were not protecting those students.

So we were very critical and I appreciate your critique of what was happening on the UCLI campus.

You're absolutely spot on.

Well, we were with law enforcement as they were staging

to go in and take them down.

And I will say this about all of the law enforcement agencies that were doing this.

I was speaking with them moments, you know, they were staging a couple of miles away from the campus and they had their buses there and all the troops there.

And

we were speaking to leadership over there at 2.30, 3 o'clock in the morning.

I was, trust me, I was up at 2.33 in the morning when we finally pulled the orders.

I was asking them,

tell me what your plan is and what your number one objective is.

There was nobody there but us and they allowed me to be there because they know how pro-law enforcement I am, how much I support their sacrifices that they make to keep the rest of us safe.

And every single one of them, and I talked to them individually, you know, 40, 50 yards away from each other, they all said the same thing.

Our number one objective is that everybody gets home safe tonight.

UCLA students, the protesters.

all of our officers,

even these protesters that were hurling these insults at them and calling them every name in the book, their number one objective was that those people get home safe.

They weren't, oh, well, we're going to win in there and kick some ass.

No, no, no.

They said with great sincerity, we just want everybody to get home safe tonight.

You know, tomorrow's another day.

Let's get everybody home safe tonight.

And I said, Will that happen?

They said, well, that depends on them.

If they follow our directions,

then they'll get home safe tonight.

The second worst thing is is we'll detain them and sight them, and

then they'll get home safe.

But we want everybody to get home safe tonight.

And I had such great respect

for them that there's number one, even the protesters, they absolutely wanted them to get home safe.

Yeah, I know, and they did a really admirable job that night.

And while there was a few modest incidences,

they conducted themselves extraordinarily well in terms of how they reacted to those incidents.

It only reinforced their stewardship.

And not just on the UCLA campus, on many other campuses, not just in California, of course, all across this country.

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One of the things that, you know, I think it's the conversation we're having here around how you work through these things and how we work through our differences and how we find commonality.

You began with, you opened up by saying, you don't think our politics is, you think, you know, mainstream media sort of, you know, it sort of exacerbates the conditions, this divisions,

that we're not as far apart as we may appear.

Tell me a little bit more about what your thinking is in that respect.

You mean that more broadly about sort of universal values of being loved and need to be loved, being protected, connected, respected?

Or do you mean that on issues like immigration, issues like human rights and social justice, or on what topics?

Look, conflict sells tickets.

You know, if you're doing the news and your lead headline is today

at 3rd and Elm, nothing happened.

That just doesn't sell tickets, right?

But if you can say,

today

at 3rd and Elm, chaos broke out.

throw to the video.

Now everybody turns around and looks.

And that's just kind of how we have

been shaped and fashioned into following the news.

But the truth of the matter is,

I believe anytime I'm negotiating with somebody, the first thing I do is say, look, we've got differences.

I agree with that.

I think you and I have some differences in the way we look at things.

But

if we were going to try to find some common ground, the first thing I would do is say, you know, Governor, let's first talk about everything we agree about.

Yeah.

Let's just talk about the things that we agree about, because

I think if we do that,

we're going to find that we're not near as

divided or different

as we might think we are.

And

let's look at it from a broad standpoint.

If you sit down with the most polarized folks

and say, let's talk about what we agree about in America, everybody wants

a safe and healthy country.

Nobody would disagree with that.

Everybody wants to leave a good, green, clean, prosperous country for our children.

Nobody would disagree with that.

Everybody wants us to have a strong economy.

Everybody would agree with that.

Everybody wants us to be a good leader in the world and set a good example for other countries.

Everybody would agree.

uh with that now we might disagree about how

we go about achieving those things, but everybody would agree with where we're trying to get.

And I think one of the most

critical days in this country's history

was 9-12.

Not 9-11.

9-11 was one of the darkest days in our history, of course.

But on 9-12,

everybody woke up and we were Americans first.

There weren't Democrats, there weren't Republicans, we were all Americans.

And I just pray

that something like that doesn't have to happen again

for people to remember that, hey, wait a minute, we're all wearing the same color jersey.

We may have some differences on issues, but we're all Americans.

And we all love this country and we all want

fundamentally the same things.

And if we remember that first,

then I think we have a foundation to work from, a foundation to build on.

And,

you know, I just, I pray we don't need to be reminded of that

by being under attack.

And

I.

I think if we do remember that, if we do take that approach and we go, hey, wow, we've really got something here to work on.

You know,

people,

I've followed you for a long time and

there are things that, you know, people look at you and you have kind of an affluent image and all.

People

don't know that,

and I learned one of the things that you and I have in common is we both come from pretty poor backgrounds.

Both had to work real early in our lives and

shared some common difficult experiences early in life of trying to make it and

get by and find this job and then that job.

And when I learned those things about you several years ago,

All of a sudden I said, you know,

I understand how he's gotten where he is because this guy understands hard work and and putting the time in to get where he's going and

my whole opinion changed when i learned some of those things and there are things that i disagree with you on um i disagreed with you on some of the things you did concerning covid

and shutting things down and how long and this that and the other

but i

I didn't have questions about your intention,

just

your choices.

And I always knew this was something I could sit down and talk to you about

because I knew that you knew the value of hard work and what families put in and

how important it was.

And I felt like People don't take time to find out who they're talking to, what their history, and what their values values are.

And tune in for our continued conversation with Dr.

Phil.

This is an iHeart Podcast.