02 Mr Big | Two suspects, one killer

ABC Listen.

Podcasts, radio, news, music, and more.

Just a warning before we start.

This podcast has some strong language and covers some intense material.

Emergency services.

66377.

Thank you.

What's the address you require?

Hang on, hang on.

We've got a man.

We've got an AVO against a man, and he's right in front of the house.

Okay, what is...

Listen, listen.

What's the address?

It's two days before the fire at Mary Cook's house, and Mary's neighbour, Terry Britton, is causing trouble.

Is this fella drug or alcohol affected?

He usually is.

This was the day that Terry drew his hand across his throat in a threatening gesture.

And he was waving something around in his hand and

saying, you know, harassing and...

Okay.

You know, you put your hand underneath your mouth so you don't top your head off sort of thing.

Terry also seems to be brandishing some kind of bat.

The caller is a family friend, and he's with Mary's kid.

I've got a little girl here, she's absolutely freaking.

There is an AVO against the man.

We would like him arrested because this is the third time now he's broken this AVO in a week.

Last night he was swinging a knife, waving a knife around in the park across the road.

Can you go down there and please remove the arso?

Otherwise I'm not going to be responsible for what I'm going to do.

What you're going to do sir is lock your front door and stay inside.

That way no one can get hurt.

And I'll get the police down there to arrest him and then everyone will be happy.

But you don't go outside, okay?

Just days after this phone call, Mary would be dead.

As the murder investigation got underway, police pretty quickly narrowed their list of suspects down to two people.

And it turns out both of them were there at this incident outside Mary's place.

This episode, How the police investigated them both and eliminated one.

I'm Alicia Bridges and this is Mr.

Big, the latest season of Unravel.

Remember we've got some work to do.

How's things?

In the end, this podcast is all about that tape you heard last episode.

So

I think we've got a bit of an issue there at the moment, okay?

The tape made a year after Mary Cook's death.

I don't just need it under the carpet, I need it to be fixed so that it never comes back, okay?

But as I would come to learn, there are lots of lies told in that conversation, and it's hard to know where the lies stop and the truth starts.

The only way of starting to interpret that conversation is to know about everything that led up to it.

And that includes knowing about the people who aren't on the tape.

So we're going to go back to that tape.

But right now, I'm going to explain step by step what happened before it was recorded.

The first thing to do is to go back to the very beginning of the police investigation, when those two people first emerged as suspects.

And on day one, Terry Britton was in the frame.

Police weren't the only ones who suspected him.

A lot of people assumed Terry might be involved.

And when I started working on this story, the more I asked around about Terry, the more I understood why.

Even Terry's own dad thought Terry was an extremely dangerous man.

Horrible to say it, but yeah.

Yeah, he, yeah, just

nothing sort of worried him or stopped him.

And if you pissed him off, God help you.

Terry's dad's name is also Terry.

I'll call him Terry Sr.

He says his son started out as a smart young kid.

who could have achieved big things.

He got a job at McDonnell Johnson as Boilermaker in Melbourne, and he was really good at it and he won awards for

how well he'd done the job and his work ethic and everything.

You know, like we always got on well.

We had our,

we did have

a few little Barneys or Tiffs, I suppose, whatever you want to call them.

But yeah, most of the time we got on pretty well.

But his temper and later drug use used to get him in trouble.

He just sort of got more, I suppose, rat baggy is the easiest way to put it, but yeah, he just, yeah, things just slowly deteriorated over the years.

There's this one time Terry Sr.

remembers that really stuck in his head.

He and Terry had gone to see a game of footy at the MCG.

After the game, they were waiting with the other leaving spectators at a pedestrian crossing.

Punt Road's the main road that goes past the MCG

and He's standing, oh,

must have been on the edge of Punt Road to cross.

And as they waited, a taxi driver sped through the pedestrian crossing.

For some reason, that made Terry angry, so he smacked his hand on the car as it passed.

And the taxi driver locked it up, got out and started coming down as though he was going to confront him.

Instead of walking away, Terry took on the taxi driver.

and belted the crap out of him right there on the street in front of a huge crowd of footy fans.

The next minute there's this copper on a

horse after him.

Terry seemed to think he was safe with such a big crowd between him and the police officer.

He was going through the crowd and he sort of stuck his head up and turned back to this copper and he said, catch me now you big fat cup.

It didn't take long for the police officer to catch up with him.

And the copper pinned him up against the pub wall until other coppers come and arrested him.

So he was almost like asking for it, you know?

Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, he cocky little shit.

Yeah, he was cocky little shit.

And I went to the court case that day and he was very close to going to jail, but he didn't.

He was always clever enough to get away with it.

Terry Sr.

told me a few stories like this about more violent fights and Terry's increasing use of the drug ICE.

And there are even more like that in Terry's court records, armed robbery, death threats, and other assaults.

What Terry Sr.

didn't know was just how fixated his own son had become on Mary and her family.

Terry had punched someone living in Mary's house, slit tires outside the house with a screwdriver, and threatened people who lived there with a throat-slitting gesture.

Terry had also been seen with a large knife in his hand, yelling threats across the road at Mary and her son.

It got so bad, a restraining order was put on him to stop him going in the house.

But the list of warning signs doesn't stop there.

He'd also threatened to do a run-through of the house the very Saturday she was killed.

A run-through is basically where you barge into a house and trash it.

In fact, Mary's kids were so terrified about what Terry was going to do that weekend that they fled the house to stay with friends and partners.

So the night of the fire, Mary was alone.

The father of her children even came over and begged her to leave the house for her own safety.

But she didn't.

She stayed.

And that night, she was murdered.

And when I put some of that to Terry Sr.,

I was shocked at what he said.

What was your first thought when I contacted you about this, that Terry's name had come up in this investigation into a woman's death?

Oh, he probably murdered her.

Why did you think that?

Nothing stopped him.

Like when it came to violence, like I said, the blokes at the pub, the bloke at the MCG,

the fella on the street, yeah, just he didn't care.

Yeah, you know, you piss me off, I'm going to retaliate.

And, you know, it's every possibility that this Sheila lady,

whatever she done or didn't do, and yeah, she might have

peeved him off and

he would sit around and think about it for a few days.

He would ponder on it and what to do and then he'd probably get a belly full of beer and drugs and retaliated in one way or another or either come over and bellowed the daylights out of you or

maybe even set the place on fire or I don't know but I just wouldn't have liked to have lived next door to him.

As early as the day after the fire, the police had already heard about the threats Terry'd made, and it was pretty obvious they needed to go and pay him a visit.

So two officers went to investigate, but it seems from pretty early on that they started to think Terry wasn't their guy.

One officer wrote in his diary that Terry seemed shocked at the news Mary had died.

The officer also wrote that Terry was cooperative and quote, unlikely involved.

But then a few days later, they bring him in for an interview anyway.

While he waits for the police officers to come into the interview room, Terry rants to himself.

But mainly someone dies up the road and I'm going to spend all fucking day with this shit.

When the detectives come into the room, they start by reading him his rights and they get him to go through what he did the night Mary died.

What I'll do, I'll get you to start at the beginning of it.

Terry tells them he'd been watching TV at the time of the fire.

I was watching Santa Claus, that Tim Allen movie, and 10.30 that finished.

And he gives a very specific breakdown of the shows he'd watched and at what time they started.

I was waiting for around Days of Thunder to come on

which came on just after 11 o'clock and I watched probably half to three quarters of that.

It's so precise it feels almost like he's memorised the TV guide.

More importantly than all this though Terry tells police there was someone else there with him, his girlfriend.

Lying on the couch next to me asleep.

I woke her at roughly 12.30 and I was three quarters, half to three quarters of the way through the movie.

So his girlfriend was his alibi.

But even that wasn't watertight.

Firstly, she was snoozing on the couch when he was watching TV, so not awake the whole time.

Secondly, she'd actually lied to give Terry another alibi about that time he went to Mary's house and punched someone.

So Terry had a violent history, a series of alleged threats towards Mary, and an alibi that was less than ideal.

How do you think the results of the investigation will come out in regards to you?

Me?

Fine.

What would you say if our

investigation actually revealed that you were involved?

What would you say to that?

It's absolute crap.

I'll deny it till the day I die.

After questioning him for just over an hour, police end the interview and let him go.

Alright, well the agreement time is 7.50pm.

Okay, well we'll conclude the interview.

As I looked at what happened in those early days of the investigation, I was looking for a simple reason that would explain why police lost interest in Terry.

A good alibi, CCTV footage, something that clearly ruled him out.

But they couldn't find anything like that.

I wanted to.

That would have made this case simpler to get my head around.

I asked police what made them move on from Terry at this point.

but they declined to answer my questions.

Our team made a lot of phone calls, and to be honest, it was really hard to find someone to defend him.

The one guy who would and was willing to be interviewed was his old boss.

Terry to me was always a happy-go-lucky cheery boy.

He was never flat.

He was always a bit of spark in him.

David Chick met Terry when he was just a teenager.

I used to be a ballermaker down in Melbourne.

He

came to me as a blonde, curly-headed boy, always

eager to prove himself in the trade.

The thing David David remembers most about Terry was just how good he was at the job.

He could be a bit wild, but David trusted him.

Terry always, always tried at his job.

Like I said, used it to you once before that if he'd have a day off and I knew he had been on the grog, I'd go around and pick him up and make sure he came to work.

You know what I mean?

Even if he was hung over, but the boy was capable, you know what I mean?

I thought the world of him, to be truthful.

You know, he was good friends with my wife.

Well, he met me, young kids.

He was part of my life.

You know what I mean?

There's no question about it.

Even though he's one of those,

he's such a likable scullywag, that's all, in my eyes.

So maybe I might attract scullywags, I don't know.

David became an important figure in Terry's life, someone who was always there for a chat if Terry needed it.

When Terry later left the trade and then fell into drugs, they stayed in touch.

But over time, David noticed Terry's drug use getting worse.

The last time that I've seen seen Terry, he turned up at my place

and drugs being drugs, he was going that hard that he was foaming from his mouth, on both sides of his mouth.

My young children,

I didn't need that scene around me at all.

Didn't want to see it.

So we

got a little bit heated.

I asked him to leave.

And the next day he rang up and apologised about it.

And that was probably the last time that I'd really seen him.

David hadn't heard about what happened to Mary Cook but when he heard just how many people suspected Terry in the days after her murder David was adamant that's not the Terry he knew

make no mistake about him girl he was wild you know what I mean

it's just

no I can't see it I can't see it.

You know, I can't see him ever, ever, ever doing something like that.

You know what I mean?

I could see him walking up and belting you in the mouth, but I don't couldn't see him ever doing

something horrific as that.

You know what I mean?

Especially not to not towards a woman.

And I can understand Terry doing a run-through and giving you a belt.

Yes, that's the sort of person he would be.

But I don't believe he would ever go out and actually

physically kill

out of anger.

Especially a woman.

No.

No.

Not in my eyes at all.

And I guess that's the thing.

It really depends whose eyes you're looking at this through.

Because for the people Terry had hurt, and for the people who lived closest to him, he seemed capable of anything.

But in the end, police focused their investigation on someone else.

The person they honed in on instead was a man that few, if any, of Mary's neighbours or family friends suspected at the start.

He was a quiet guy, not known for being violent or aggressive.

And he was a close friend of Mary's.

Emergency services.

66377.

Thank you.

What's the address you require?

Against all expectations, it wasn't the guy making the threats in that triple zero call that police were interested in.

Hang on, hang on.

We've got a man, we've got an AVO against a man, and he's right in front of the house.

It was the one making the call.

What's your name?

My name's Glenn.

Glenn what?

Weaven.

Weaven?

Weaven.

W-E-A-Z-E-F.

At 10am, the day after Mary was killed, police called Glenn Weaven's mum.

Well, I was in the kitchen when the phone rang.

This is Melody Weaven.

And

this police officer asked who was in my house last night.

And so I thought, well, why is he checking up on where Glenn was last night?

Glenn was 35 years old.

He'd moved in with his mum and dad a few years earlier when he was going through a rough patch.

As his mum, Melody, answered the police officer's questions, her mind started ticking.

Why would the police be interested in Glenn?

This policeman's on the phone making me think that...

Well, what do you think when someone asks you who's in your house after there's been a

fire reported?

I don't know.

I just thought it was odd.

It was like, well, does he expect someone to be running around lighting fires?

Melody told the officer Glenn had been at home looking after his seven-year-old daughter.

This daughter of Glenn's was from a previous relationship, and she was there visiting Glenn for the weekend.

Melody told police Glenn hadn't gone out.

Then she hung up.

But the phone call from police left Melody feeling uneasy.

She'd never liked Glenn's relationship with Mary.

She wasn't sure, but she thought at some point point the relationship might have been romantic.

And then they must have decided that they're better friends than lovers.

And they were still friends.

She thought Mary and her family were trouble, and she worried about Glenn getting caught up in it.

Yeah, there was plenty of conflict there, apparently, because I'd ask Glenn things.

And

those neighbours will always seem to be warring with each other.

Melody was now worried that it was her son son police were after.

I'm thinking, oh Glenn, what do you even know those people for?

That's what I was thinking.

Because

he was way out of his depths with those kind of people.

Not used to it.

Four days after that phone call, police call Glenn Weaven into the station for a formal interview.

And it seems to me that it must be this interview that shifts the police focus away from Terry Britton.

because what happens in this interview changes the whole investigation.

My name's Detective Senior Sergeant Ron Iddles from the Homicide Squad.

It's Thursday,

the 18th day of December 2008.

Ron Iddles is homicide detective royalty.

By the time Mary was killed and her house burnt down, he was nearly 30 years into his career and he would later claim to have a 99% homicide conviction rate.

This is the official police recording of his interview with Glenn Weaven.

I had to make an application to a judge for it to be released.

It's never been heard publicly before.

Shortly intended to interview Glenn Weaven

in relation to the circumstances surrounding the death of Mary Cook on Sunday morning at around 1am when she was burnt in a house fire at Nary Warren.

To start with, Ron's by himself.

He sits in this cheap office swivel chair, leaning slightly forward, his hands between his knees, nonchalantly passing a pen between them.

He's maybe late 50s, early 60s, with grey short cropped hair and deep lines under his eyes.

He looks and sounds like the seasoned homicide detective he is.

So shortly I'll bring Glenn in and commence an interview with him.

After a minute, he gets up and lets Glenn Weaven into the room.

Just grab a seat there, Glenn.

Make yourself comfortable.

Glenn Weaven sits down in the office chair facing the camera.

He's wearing a loose t-shirt and what look like cargo pants.

He's unshaven, slim, tussled hair.

So at any stage, if you want to leave, the door's unlocked and it's open.

by all means

by all means leave.

For the purpose of identification would you just tell me what your full name is?

Glenn Mackey Weagman.

The reason that I asked you to come back here today

was to see whether you have any involvement whatsoever in the death of Mary Cook.

Do you understand that?

I do.

Now I haven't met you before, today's the first time I've met you.

Tell me about Glenn Weaman.

Who are you?

What do you do?

Oh dear.

I'm Glenn Weaveman.

I'm a sheephead worker.

Glenn tells Ron a little bit about himself.

He's a hard worker, but a pretty quiet person.

A bit of a pushover who tries to avoid conflict.

I don't know.

I try to stay out of trouble.

Trouble sometimes finds me, but mum always said I'm a smiling person and that smile is just too fickering and people always take advantage of that.

Ron nods.

He starts to share with Glenn anecdotes from his own life, like how he grew up duck shooting on farms.

It seems like he's trying to build a rapport with Glenn.

Then Ron gets to the point.

Alright, as I said,

the purpose of getting you to come back here today is

a post-mortem

being conducted today.

Yeah,

and it's quite clear that Mary didn't die as a result of the fire.

We suspect it.

So the purpose is to see whether you yourself have any involvement in the death.

They've been chatting for more than five minutes before Ron tells Glenn about his rights, about how he doesn't have to answer any questions if he doesn't want to, that he can call a friend or a relative or even a lawyer.

Do you wish to exercise any of these rights before this interview proceeds?

And then the formal questioning begins.

First of all, tell me a bit about Mary and how long you've known her.

Take as long as you like and in as much detail.

I'll try to go back from the start.

Glenn describes how he first met Mary and her kids and how over time they grew close.

He talks about how he used to help Mary with the shopping, how he'd take her kids to school, go to their plays, Christmas functions, even parent-teacher interviews.

Eventually, Glenn says he and Mary slept together a few times, but that they were more friends than lovers.

He's expansive in his answers.

He talks about his feelings and vulnerabilities.

He occasionally shrugs his shoulders, makes the odd light-hearted quip.

Then at one stage, he's about halfway through describing an argument he and Mary have one time when Ron takes the interview in a totally new direction.

I hope you do.

Give me one good reason why I should believe.

I've never hurt anyone in my life.

Ever.

But yeah, I didn't.

No, no, I did not kill Mary.

I can express that.

I'll express it.

I could never, ever.

Ron doesn't really press Glenn here.

They just kind of move on to other topics.

And soon, Glenn is talking about the more recent troubles on the street at Darling Way and the beef between the people in Mary's house and Terry, that guy in the house down the road.

He says he heard Terry was planning some kind of run-through at Mary's house the night she was murdered.

And he's telling a story about how scared Mary was of Terry when Ron gently interrupts again.

What I want to do is take you back to Saturday, Ron.

So Saturday and Sunday.

It's like Ron's done with with the chit chat.

He wants specifics.

Police suspect that Mary was killed in the early hours of Sunday morning.

So what Glenn says here is important.

I want you to detail me everything that you did Saturday and Sunday.

Take as long as you like.

Glenn lays out the chronology of the hours leading up to Mary's death.

At 6.30pm, He says he took his daughter to the village cinemas to see High School Musical 3.

He says it finished around 8.30pm and they were back home in his parents' house by 9.

Mum was still up.

She wanted to just suffer now and was like, no, no, no, tired, going to bed.

Around 9.30, 10pm, Glenn says he and Mary texted back and forth a few times.

This was the weekend Terry was supposed to run through the house, so he says he wanted to make sure she was okay.

She did send me a text message saying, Are you going to come around?

If you do can you bring some more alcohol

but he texted back that he really can't because he's at home with his daughter

she would never leave me two minutes out of her sight he says he rang Mary to check in around 11 o'clock but she didn't pick up

I probably rang probably

I probably got up during

before I even went to sleep probably around 11 o'clock had been furryish I went to the fridge had a drink

went back to bed, just laid there pretty much,

very concerned.

At around 12.30, 1am, he tried again, but again, Mary didn't pick up.

Mary would not go to bed before 1 o'clock.

It was very rare.

So I knew she was still up.

She's just not answering the phone.

thinking that it might be someone else ringing.

But I did send a text, please pick up.

Pick up.

He sent another text urging her to respond.

Ring me if you're okay to say that just

ring.

And I kept trying.

Eventually, Glenn says he fell asleep and woke to the sound of his phone ringing with the news that Mary's house was on fire.

He tells Ron he never went to Mary's place that night.

Now Ron starts pushing Glenn.

He wants him to be more specific with his timeline, and at one stage, he gets him to try and remember what happened by starting from the fire and going backwards.

After about half an hour of this, Ron starts pressuring him.

Look, I've only spent some short time with you today, like the last hour or so.

Tell me why you wouldn't do something like this, stab it to death.

No, no,

no.

I would say I've got a daughter.

I love her dearly.

I'm an anti-violent person.

I love to compromise.

I'll see someone halfway.

If it's a fail,

I couldn't explain.

I couldn't even have a flight swift straight.

Did you leave your house at any stage between 9.30 and 1am on Saturday night?

No.

No.

Did you go to Mary's house at any stage between 9.30pm on Saturday night

and 1am?

No.

No.

No.

No.

No.

What I propose to do is to have a short break and I'll kind of come back and just clarify a few things and ask you a few other things.

The two men relax slightly and Ron offers him a cigarette.

Do you want to have a smoke?

Yeah, yeah, I don't want to do it on it.

I'll lay it on with you and then I'll go out and sort out some things.

Alright, I'll come back and see you short.

Thank you.

The interview room camera keeps rolling while Glenn sits on his own smoking.

He ashes his cigarette in a styrofoam cup and after two or three minutes starts shaking his head.

Then he starts to moan.

He leans forward and rests his head in his hands.

He waits, picks at his calloused hands, bites a fingernail, looks at the floor.

Ten minutes pass.

Glenn knocks on the door for some water and asks how long is this going to take?

Can you ask the detective how long it's going to be?

Okay, thanks.

Another ten minutes pass, and when Detective Ron Idaws comes back in, it's with a very different attitude.

Glenn, just sat in the move your chair back again.

This time Ron is standing right up close to Glenn, looking down at him as he sits in his chair.

Glenn, I've finished our investigation in relationship.

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that you stabbed Mary.

Glenn takes a sharp breath and shakes his head.

Now, just bear me out with you, please.

I'll let you have an opportunity to speak.

I've looked at what you've actually told me here tonight, and I've gone through, and I want to share just a couple of case facts with you to try to put you into the picture of to where I'm coming from.

He tells Glenn there are some inconsistencies in his statement.

For one, Mary's son Nathan says Glenn did visit Mary's place that night.

You've told me that you didn't go around to

Mary's that night.

Well, we've taken a statement from Nathan and Nathan actually spoke to his mum that night around 9.30 quarter to 10

and Mary said, look, Glenn's here now.

He's here having a discussion with me and he will go shortly.

So bear that in mind.

Glenn looks shocked.

He kind of recoils in his chair and shakes his head.

He tries to interject, but Ron keeps talking.

Eventually, he says he wasn't at the house.

It's quite clear that you're there because Mary tells Nathan that you're there and there's absolutely no doubt that you are there.

Except

don't insult your own integrity and intelligence by saying that, right?

Because it's quite clear that you were there at around 10 o'clock at night.

The other issue is that you're concerned about her, you ring her, you text her and you do all those things.

But you know what?

You don't get out of bed, you don't drive around there, you don't go around and check to see that if she's alright.

So

what I'm trying to understand is what led you to do what you did.

Ron tells Glenn he understands what's happened here.

Glenn's a decent person, but the thing is sometimes decent people get stressed out and do some crazy stuff they regret.

Then Glenn interrupts to insist softly, I'm not a murderer.

I'm not a murderer.

No, I agree with you.

You know, I don't think you are a murderer.

It's a situation that whatever took place on Saturday night, more than likely it's an argument that's just got out of hand, you've lost your self-control

and that's it.

Now that's the situation, isn't it?

That

Glenn, that's a situation about what happened that night.

It's a situation that got out of control, isn't it?

I understand that you're comfortable,

but...

Glenn sort of pushes back here, but he doesn't argue or shout his denials.

I'm just puzzled.

Puzzle.

you don't have to be puzzled because is it a situation that I think it is where you lost your self-control, that you really didn't mean to do what you did?

Is that the situation?

That's the situation isn't it?

Ron takes control of the conversation again and at one point Glenn even seems to agree with him.

So again, it's not a situation that you've gone there with some massive plan.

It's not that situation, is it?

No, no, no, no.

And I appreciate you sharing that, right?

And I'm glad that that's what I thought.

I didn't think that this was a situation where you'd gone.

I'm not a mastermind.

No, that's right.

And if you were a mastermind, I've got to tell you,

I wouldn't be here.

Right?

So you're not that sort of person.

You're the sort of person that I see here today

is that you're a genuine person.

That you've got a lot of love to give, that you care for people, that you care for Mary, you care for her children, you support her, right?

You support her when maybe some government agency's done.

You're the one that's there for her back and call.

You're the one that answers the phone calls and go around and gets the bowl of drink or goes to the grocery and buys groceries for it.

You're the one that's there for her.

Nobody else is there.

And you're to be commended for that.

That's why I can see that you are a good person.

Thank you.

So

that good person

had just made one bad choice and we need to look at what led you to make that bad choice.

And it was a bad choice, wasn't it?

I just can't believe it.

I know

you can't believe what happened because you can't...

No.

You need to come to terms with it though.

Don't walk away from it.

You need to reconcile it.

You need to come to terms with it because

this is a nightmare for you.

Glenn is crying now.

Ron has leaned over and put a hand on his knee to comfort him.

It's at this point something totally weird happens.

Glenn's suddenly standing up, leaning over towards the detective and hugging him.

I won't be.

I know you hurt her.

I really wouldn't hurt her.

I know that.

You're not the sort of person that would hurt it.

And

I understand that.

Didn't do it.

Why were we at the house on that night?

I don't even know if I was.

I don't know.

I didn't do it.

Glenn rubs frantically at his face and shakes his head quickly side to side as he cries.

I didn't do it.

You can block these things, you can continue to block it out, but you need to actually deal with it.

I didn't do it.

Because it won't go away.

I didn't do it.

I didn't.

I didn't.

No.

No way.

No way, no.

Could you have done it and not remember?

No,

no way.

I couldn't, I didn't do it.

I know you couldn't.

And then

land.

Under normal circumstances, absolutely no way could you do it.

I accept it

under normal circumstances, but these weren't normal.

Then Glenn does the thing he could have done right from the start.

He asks to leave.

Please, sir, can I go home?

You can leave at any stage you want.

I would like to go home.

Alright.

I need to get someone to come and see you.

As I said, you're free to go anytime you like and you've telling me that you want to go.

Yeah, I do.

Well,

I'll arrange that for you.

All right.

As Ron leaves the room, Glenn completely breaks down.

The camera rolls as he paces the room, whimpers, and ends up crouched on the floor, his face resting on his chair, crying softly and dragging on the cigarette.

Eventually, Ron drives him home.

Now, not just as a friend of Mary's, but a suspect in her murder.

No matter how you look at it, this is the sound of a man who is cracking under pressure.

Glenn is in tears and is totally breaking down here.

He's in a state of distress.

The question for police is why?

Maybe Glenn just is an innocent man who's lost his friend.

He's a pretty timid person, not very assertive, someone who clearly doesn't handle pressure or confrontation very well.

And now he's got this detective, someone with a lot of power, telling him he's the key suspect in a murder investigation.

that he knows he did it.

And in the face of all that, he's just crumpled.

The other way you could look at it is that Glenn sounds guilty, like someone who thinks they're about to be caught.

Maybe he's emotional because he killed Mary and he's sorry about it.

Distraught even.

And he's falling apart because he thinks his life is about to be over.

But whichever way you look at it, if police think Glenn's guilty, this interview isn't proof of anything.

Police need evidence.

They keep investigating.

And it's about two months after this interview that they visit the house where Glenn lives with his mum and dad.

Why don't I speak to Tricky?

Some of the technical salesman police on sites where we live in.

They present them with a search warrant.

What it explains is a 46-by-search bike and they're open for

bloodstain trading with their instrument similar to screwdriver.

They search the house and seize a bunch of screwdrivers and a few other items.

After they took the screwdrivers and that,

yeah, I was beginning to think that it was more serious.

Yes, indeed.

Nerve-wracking, really.

But none of those items taken from the house proved anything.

Soon, the investigation seemed to stall, and police looked like they were at a standstill.

If Glenn had just got on with his life at this point, things might have turned out very differently.

Instead, he did something that would change his life forever.

He stepped into a new world he knew nothing about.

That's next time on Mr Big.

This season of Unravel is hosted and reported by me, Alicia Bridges.

We've been making this story on Gadaguland and Wajaknumar Land.

This story was developed in collaboration with the ABC's investigations team.

Our supervising producer is Alex Mann.

Producer and researcher is Ayla Darling.

Theme by Martin Peralta and Ashley Cadell.

Additional music by Ashley Cadell.

Sound design and additional music by Hamish Camilleri.

Monique Bowley is our manager of podcasts and our executive producer is Tim Roxborough.

Hey, I'm Sana Kadar and I host a podcast called All in the Mind.

And if you've ever wondered how our brains work or why people behave the way they do, you'll love All in the Mind.

It's a psychology podcast that explores everything from mental health to artificial intelligence with topics like how our brains interpret fantasy novels, what psychological techniques scammers use, and what it's like living with bipolar disorder.

Find All in the Mind on the ABC Listen app.

You've been listening to an ABC podcast.

Discover more great ABC podcasts, live radio, and exclusives on the ABC Listen app.