01 Mr Big | The secret recording

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Just a warning before we start.

This podcast has some strong language and covers some intense material.

A while ago, someone handed me this recording.

The conversation on this tape is so strange and disturbing that I've lost count of how many times I've listened to it.

I've spent nearly two years now just trying to figure out what to make of it.

As it starts, you can hear this man shuffling around in a quiet room.

He clears his throat.

Then someone else comes to the door.

It opens.

Another man enters the room.

Remember, we've got some work to do.

How's things?

The two men start talking.

And right away, it's clear they're involved in some pretty dodgy stuff.

I've got a lot of things going on all over the place.

I understand, you know, you've been involved in a few things,

helping us out with, I think, the guns to the bikies.

Yeah, yeah.

Or the smokeship.

Yeah.

Those sort of things, you know?

Selling guns to bikies is pretty serious organised crime.

For legal reasons, we've altered one of the voices to disguise the man's identity.

I'd like to get to know the people that we want to have on board the crew, you know?

The guy leading the conversation sounds like a crime boss, like a gang leader or a kingpin, some sort of Mr.

Big.

I'm really happy with what you've been doing, you know.

You're really showing you've got some style about you.

No fuss, you know.

You're always reliable.

The younger guy sounds almost like the opposite of Mr.

Bigg.

I want a piece of the pie, okay.

He's eager to please.

I can assure you that I wouldn't let you go in any way.

I'm not that type of person.

It seems like Mr.

Bigg wants this younger guy to know just how high stakes this game really is.

And to prove his point, he lets him in on a secret.

He says his power extends to some very high places.

I've got coppers in every state that I pay good money to, and I don't do it because I like the fucking police.

Let me tell you that right now, alright?

Because in this game, if we come unstack, then we might end up in a bin, you know?

You know what I mean?

The suggestion of having corrupt cops on the take is heavy enough, but the recording only gets more intense as it goes on.

As they keep talking, Mr Bigg gets to the real reason for this meeting.

He says the younger guy's done something wrong.

Something that's attracting unwanted attention from the police.

The kind of attention Mr Bigg can't buy his way out of.

And Mr Bigg is pissed off about it.

So you've got to have a problem with the coppers on your ass at the moment, all right?

I can't have any police sniffing around any of the people that are working for me, right?

Because if that's going to happen, they're going to end up sniffing around me at some stage, aren't they?

So

I think we've got a bit of an issue there at the moment, okay?

Mr.

Biggs says he doesn't care what the younger guy's done, but if it's left a trail of crumbs for the police, then it needs to be dealt with.

It needs to go away.

I don't just need it under the carpet.

I need it to be fixed so that it never comes back.

Okay?

It seems for a second like they're talking about a bad business deal or a drug debt, but they're not.

And this is where things take an extremely dark turn.

Because what they're really talking about is the murder of a woman.

And the casual way that they talk about it, it's just brutal.

I find it so confronting every time I hear it.

Yep, I gotta say, what happened?

What was wrong with her?

He says he cut her in the neck.

Like it's just this throwaway line.

When you say the neck, what, you stab her in the neck?

Yep, yep.

With a knife?

Yep.

Then Mr.

Bigg asks for more details.

If he's going to make the murder weapon disappear, he needs to know exactly what he's looking for.

Now what sort of knife are we talking?

Snake knife, surrounded edge.

What gets me about this is just the bored and mechanical way that they describe all this violence.

The younger guy tells Mr.

Big he also used a screwdriver.

I saw the screwdriver, just a normal screwdriver.

A longer.

Then on the tape you can hear him kind of sigh and say what by now is pretty obvious.

At the end of the day, I suppose I did kill her.

At the end of the day,

because I paid the

killer.

In case you didn't hear that, he says at the end of the day, I suppose I did kill her.

Mr.

Bigg doesn't flinch when he's told about the details of this murder.

He doesn't ask many questions about this woman or who she was.

He seems more interested in what to do next, how to cover it up so it doesn't affect his business.

The finding of the screwdriver and the knife is very important.

We need to

get rid of that.

So we need to find that and then get rid of it properly.

We need to come up with some sort of conclusive

alibi about who you're with or where you were.

Does anybody know about

how she was stabbed, where she was stabbed?

Nobody?

Only through the police reports.

Good.

It's good.

Well, looks like we're going to have a long and happy bloody...

I hope so.

No reason why we shouldn't.

It's been nearly two years since I first heard this recording.

It's chilling.

Sickening even.

Two men just casually discussing a woman's murder and how to cover it up.

But what I've learned since I first heard it is a lot of what these men are saying is built on lies.

And their recorded conversation is part of something way bigger.

This tape is actually part of an enormous deception that extends around the world.

And there are people who don't want me asking questions about it.

But what they're hiding, I think we all have a right to know.

I'm Alicia Bridges.

This is Mr.

Big, the latest season of Unravel.

I'm standing on a street called Darling Way in a suburb of Melbourne called Narrie Warren.

I'm looking around, and essentially, I could be in a suburb in any city in Australia.

Brick houses, tile roofs.

Some of these places have really beautifully manicured gardens and some of them are a little unkept, long grass in the front yards.

It's what most of us are used to seeing in the suburbs.

But I'm here because to understand this story, to understand that tape, I have to start here.

There was a massive house fire at the property across the road from where I'm standing back in 2008 and that's where this story started.

I think it was about 11:30, 12:30 somewhere around then.

It was sort of late at night.

Tim Nielsen lived across the road on Darling Way.

And on this night back in 2008, he was up late watching an action movie.

I'm a war buff, Second World War buff, so I know it was a war movie.

When suddenly a loud explosion went off.

And I thought, what the hell is that?

It sounds close.

But I'm just sitting here thinking, hang on,

that's not on the TV.

So I just went to the blinds, pulled them apart, and I'm looking straight at the house.

His neighbour's house, the one just across the road.

And I just see a glow inside and then some flames.

I'm thinking, shit, the house is on fire.

I just raced here to the phone, rang, triple-O, got the fieries, and then went through the door, ran across the street.

Tim thought his neighbour might still be inside, so he rushed towards the fire to help.

So I started to move up to go into the house.

Now to kick the door and go in.

And as I was just getting to the lounge room window, I was just getting to it when it exploded.

It sort of knocked me back and flames and glass horizontally came out and across my face to the fence, my eyebrows and hair and face seemed.

Tim tried to get closer but the fire was just too intense.

There was nothing he could do.

I remember it very clearly because it was raining.

The heat was that intense that the rain was turning to steam over the house.

And I'm just standing there thinking, I can't get into this bloody house.

In a place not far from Darlingway, Andrew Davies Pager was pinging like crazy.

He was a volunteer firefighter with the local brigade, so it was like an immediate call to action.

Yeah, it's a fast drop everything.

You don't even turn the TV off or anything like that.

You're just out the door and you go.

Soon, Andrew and a crew of firefighters were hurtling towards the fire.

They'd heard there might be people stuck inside the burning house.

You get shivers, there's a lot of adrenaline going through the body as well.

As he got closer to the scene, Andrew looked to the sky for signs of the fire.

I remember seeing a bit of a glow.

We knew that, yeah, it was

all hands on deck when we got there.

The scene was chaotic.

We could see the flames coming out of the building already.

There was a lot of smoke.

There was quite a few people around as well.

I reckon between 50 and 100 people.

They were shouting at us that there was people inside.

Two of Andrew's team got into breathing gear and ran inside the house to check for survivors.

But it was no use.

It was too dangerous and they couldn't find anyone inside.

And soon the whole place went up in flames.

Andrew and his crew fought the fire from the yard, but by the time the fire died down, the house was a smouldering wreck.

And then

a couple of firefighters and myself, we walked around the back end of the house to have more of a look through that back window.

And

one of our firefighters was a paramedic.

And she

sort of pointed to us, what's that?

And that was the first sign that we sort of picked up that, yeah, maybe there was someone in there.

And we were all sort of standing there for a bit going, is it?

Is it not?

And then we've gone, yeah, we're pretty sure it is.

Andrew and his crew had found a body.

And that's where we sort of all switched to, okay, this whole area is completely cordoned off now.

And it just,

it brings a very somber mood across everyone straight away.

We saw the body being taken out.

Yeah, in the bag and the gurney.

Nobody deserves that to happen to them.

Yeah, nobody deserves that.

Very severe damage to the front part of the house where the deceased person has been found.

The roof has been severely damaged and all the internal

furniture of the house has been consumed in the

One of the first things I wanted to do when I started this investigation was to talk to the family of the woman who was killed in that fire.

But the fire happened such a long time ago, they weren't easy to find.

It took months of searching and calling wrong numbers, leaving voicemail messages, until eventually one of them called me back.

It took me a second to switch on my recorder.

Like I understand that it probably comes as a shock and it probably comes out of the blue.

So I appreciate you calling me back.

That's okay.

It was Nathan Cook's mum who was found in the wreckage of that house fire.

Her name was Mary Cook.

She was 38 years old.

The night she died, her kids weren't at home.

They were all staying with friends or partners.

Nathan was at his girlfriend's place.

Yep, this year's 16 years, so I don't just

check it year by year, day by day.

Yeah.

How are you?

What gets me through is I just think about the good memories.

Nathan tells me his mum found joy in the simple things in life.

Family, food, and music.

I remember mum listening to Abba dancing around.

She was always there for me and my sisters when we needed.

needed her.

He says she was unstoppable in the kitchen and he would often find her cooking at all hours of the night.

I used to walk out and she would be making her pizzas and starting her pasta.

I said, what are you doing?

It's three in the morning.

She goes, yeah, it'll be ready by dinner time.

She was also a mad Aussie Rules fan and she loved to watch Nathan's team play.

She really liked it.

She used to yell, scream.

She used to say, go, my son, go, my son, go, go, go.

Nathan told me this story about how his team made the grand final three years in a row.

The first one, Nathan's team lost by just five points.

And instead of us being devastated, crying, she was crying.

The second one, they again fell short.

We lost.

And I mean, we got thumped that year.

But the third grand final was an absolute nail biter.

And with Nathan's mum screaming support from the sidelines, his team just made it over the line.

They won by two points.

And Mary, who had a rep as the team's biggest booster, went absolutely ballistic.

I've never heard anyone scream so loud like she.

I think she screamed louder than the whole football team did.

When it came time to get their premiership medals, the club had organised a special announcement, not for the players, but for Nathan's mum.

When we were getting our medals,

they called mum up and gave her a medal.

But the medal said Super Mum.

That's what it said on it.

Instead of Premieres, it said Super Mum.

And she was so happy.

I don't know why she said this.

She said this many years before she died.

She goes, when I die, I can die with a smile on my face now.

These are the kind of good memories that Nathan chooses to focus on now.

But it seems like there were also hard times in Mary's life.

Others in the street remember raised voices at the house.

Nathan says Mary was just misunderstood.

If mum knew you, she would talk to you.

But

sometimes she could

be

really stern, but she didn't mean it like that.

It's just the way she was.

Right, like the way she talked or something?

Yeah, it's like

it could seem like sometimes she would yell at you, but she wasn't yelling at you.

She's just,

I don't know.

This is probably the most I've spoken about, mum, in

16 years.

I don't even know how to describe when a parent dies.

It just feels like half of your heart's been ripped out.

I'm so sorry, Nathan.

It's just a horrible thing.

How old were you at the time?

I was 18.

So young, hey.

hey.

I've spent hours walking the street where Mary used to live, talking to neighbours, people who knew her, and just trying to get a full picture of what was happening in the lead-up to that night.

But with all my radio gear, I stand out really badly.

Hello.

Hi.

Hey.

I just thought I'd let you know what I'm doing in case you'd spotted me there walking up and down the street.

Yeah, it was a bit like

what's going on.

Yeah.

So I work for the ABC and we're working on a podcast series and the case that we're looking at.

Is it about across the road?

Yes.

Yeah, I was a kid when that happened.

Would you mind talking about it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've just got my baby, so she'll hear.

That's okay.

The door's unlocked.

Just come straight in.

All right, thank you.

Eloise grew up living just across the road from Mary.

I remember Mary, she was always sweet.

She had long hair,

like brown hair, she was skinny, you know, she had big eyes.

She was always a sweet lady and she didn't have, you know, any bad bones in her body for us.

None of that.

But even as a kid, Eloise had a feeling things could be hard at Mary's house.

You know, didn't smile much.

But her kids were dressed 10 times better than what she was, you know, so she sacrificed herself pretty much for her kids.

Eloise remembers it being a pretty loud house.

It seems like sometimes there were quite a few people over at the house and there were some arguments.

Other neighbours remember the people at Mary's house had a pretty serious feud with a guy who lived a few doors down.

Eloise's mum told her to avoid Mary's place altogether.

Yeah, we were strictly not allowed to cross the road because of all those reasons.

It still makes Eloise sad to think about the night Mary died.

The The first thing we noticed was just the lights of the police ambulance and fire truck.

And then as soon as we opened the door, the smoke, everything like that, it was so horrific.

Police are appealing to the public for help in investigating a fatal house fire at Narri Warren overnight.

Firefighters were called to the house on Darling Way at about 1.30 this morning.

Very severe damage to the front part of the side.

Straight after the fire, police and fire investigators crawled through the charge shell of Mary's house.

They needed to work out whether the fire was suspicious.

The arson squad has declared the property a crime scene.

Police would like anyone with information to contact Crime Stoppers.

Mary's son Nathan was keen to get back to the house.

Because I actually went to the police station

and I said, look,

now that mum's body has been

taken, can I go in the house and see if there's anything that I can say?

Nothing could have prepared him for what he says he

And I went in the house, I found the cat, and then I found the dog in the bin.

Mary's pets had died with her in the fire.

Nathan walked further down the hallway and found his way to his own blackened bedroom.

Literally, I touched my bed and it just crumbled.

So it was like there was nothing that I could save.

I lost all my baby photos, all my clothes, like I lost everything to the the housewife.

To Nathan, it was clear from the start.

This was no accident.

And when the autopsy came back, it confirmed what he'd been thinking.

Mary had been attacked, stabbed before the fire, and now police were looking for a killer.

So I just don't know how it came to her being murdered to like

no one

didn't see it coming.

What's the motive?

Why do they do why do they kill people?

What do you get out of it?

Nothing.

I just don't understand why people kill people.

That's what's sick.

Mary's murder seemed bizarre and totally unprovoked.

People were shocked by the violence.

Neighbours, friends, and family started trying to work out who could have done this.

And it seemed like everyone's minds were going to the same place.

The guy down the road, who seemed to have a big problem with the people in Mary's house, his name was Terry, but everyone called him Tex.

He was a criminal type.

He was just a criminal type.

Carolyn Reed was a close friend of Mary's.

Her son and Nathan were good mates and would often sleep over at each other's houses.

Carolyn's family was super close to Mary's.

She was

just very nice and very friendly and she couldn't read and write, so that's why we became friends because I helped her.

Mary had been telling Carolyn about the escalating conflict with Terry and how worried she was about him.

He was a shady character, that's all you could say.

He was a shady character and

I never saw it, but there was violence attached to him.

Terry was cocky and street smart.

He was skinny, but he was a little bit muscly.

He was tall, a brawler with a hair-trigger temper who was known to police.

In 2007, he was charged with threatening to kill someone.

And in the lead-up to the fire, he'd begun fixating on the people in Mary's house and on Mary herself.

I don't know his problem with her, but he definitely had one and he threatened her.

And she was worried about it.

One night, about a week before the fire, Terry barged into Mary's house and punched one of Nathan's friends in the face.

It's not entirely clear why.

Then, later that same night, Mary and her kids heard the sound of Terry in the driveway, slashing the tires of their car.

He used a screwdriver to do it.

There was even a restraining order taken out against Terry.

He wasn't allowed to make threats or come within 100 meters of Mary's place.

But then, just three days before the fire, when one of Mary's kids was traveling in a car along their street, Terry sees them and draws his finger across his neck, making a throat-slitting gesture at the car.

Carolyn says Terry also made threats towards Mary.

It was a...

It went on over a little bit of a few months and he threatened her several times.

But there was one threat Terry made made that Carolyn will never forget.

I remember that

he threatened to kill Mary, he threatened to burn the house down

and then it happened.

If police were looking for a suspect in the murder of Mary Cook, Terry was a likely candidate.

His violent track record, the constant beef with the people in Mary's house, the restraining order, the threats people said he'd made towards Mary.

But here's the thing about all this.

Terry is not the guy on that recording you heard earlier.

I want a piece of the pie.

That voice on the tape, the one who was bringing heat on the gang run by Mr Big, the one who admitted to killing Mary, someone else.

I can assure you that I wouldn't let you hear me anyway.

But that recording wasn't made until almost a year after the murder.

after lies were told and more crimes were committed and the investigation took some really weird turns.

That's next time on Mr Big.

This season of Unravel is hosted and reported by me, Alicia Bridges.

We've been making this story on Gadigal Land and Wajuk Nunga Land.

This story was developed in collaboration with the ABC's investigations team.

Our supervising producer is Alex Mann.

Producer and researcher is Ayla Darling.

Theme by Martin Peralta and Ashley Cadell.

Additional music by Ashley Cadell.

Sound design and additional music by Hamish Camilleri.

Thanks to our intern, Katie O'Neill, who had an idea that helped change this whole episode.

Monique Bowley is our manager of podcasts, and our executive producer is Tim Roxborough.

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