Live from CrimeCon 2024 with Payne Lindsey, Dennis Cooper, and Liam Luxon

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Hey, it's Payne. A lot of you have asked for it, and now it's here.
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As you may know, many of Tenderfoot's shows have topped the charts over the years.

Actually, we've had over a dozen number one shows since we started back in 2016.

And that's thanks to you, our listeners.

But have you ever wondered what it takes to make a successful podcast?

Or what the journey's like for creators?

Sometimes shows start slow and steady.

Then next thing you know, they're reaching millions of listeners. and making a real difference.
And often they gain momentum overnight. So what's the secret? Is it hard work? Sheer luck? Maybe some of both? Well, our team recently attended CrimeCon 2024 in Nashville, and I sat down with Payne Lindsey of Up and Vanished, Dennis Cooper of Culpable, and Liam Luxon of Status Untraced.
And they talked about

their experience as first-time hosts who created a number one show. And what they share might

surprise you. Enjoy the conversation.
Okay, we made it. We did.
We did. We're here.
We're all

here. Thanks for doing this, guys.
Hey, we have our diehard fans here. Thank you.
Thank you for

joining us. we are at a

place unlike anything else i've ever been to the gaylord opryland like first i want to get

everybody's thoughts on this place it's a it's a very unique venue yeah thoughts have you ever

seen the movie biodome yes it reminds me of that where it's it's a pretend outside and for a moment

the illusion can can trick you and then like in a brief moment later you're like holy shit i'm actually inside then you and you had this weird panic and then you're like wait it's still cool there's a waterfall but i i don't think you can spend more than three days in here without completely losing your mind no other than that it's beautiful they did a great job uh so we're here at crime. Payne, have you been to every CrimeCon? Maybe.
It definitely feels like I have. I'll just go ahead and say yes to that.
Hard yes from Payne. I went to the first one.
I know that. Which was where? It was in Indianapolis.
Okay. Yep.
And the second one was here, right? I have no idea. We've definitely had a Crime con here before.
They all kind of blur together. With other conferences in between, I'm like, was that Crime Con? Was that another thing? I don't know.
But I've definitely been here before for Crime Con, I believe. Right, Mike? Right? Yeah.
18. So now it feels like a deja vu thing.
It really does. All right.
So we're here to talk about number one show. So obviously each of you have a different show that you've kind of pioneered, created.
Pain, everybody knows pain. Liam, why don't you take a second to introduce yourself in the show? Sure.
Yeah, so my name is Liam Luxon. My show is called Status Untraced.
It's about a nomadic traveler who went missing under extremely suspicious circumstances in India.

He wasn't just like a nomadic traveler though. He was an extremely trained survivalist.
One of the last things he ever said was, I should be back mid-September. If I'm not back by then, don't come looking for me.
And then disappeared soon afterwards. You could call him the lead suspect was arrested and three weeks, spent three weeks in jail.
And about three days before he was released was found hanging in his jail cell. And that was kind of, yeah, that's kind of the, that's, that's the baseline of the story.
There's a 10 episode series on it called status untraced, which is out now. And took four years to make.
Yeah. Took four years to make.
And it's incredible. And it's a deep dive investigative story.
And it's his very first podcast and it actually went number one. Dennis, what you got? Oh, my intro.
Yeah, I'm Dennis Cooper. I'm from Louisville, Kentucky, where I live with my wife and four kids.
And in 2019, I got into podcasting and created a podcast called Culpable. We covered the suspicious death of Christian Andriacchio, a 21-year-old in Moradia, Mississippi.
We did a second season out of a small town, Brown County, Ohio. We covered the case of a young, pregnant mother of one who was killed while driving on the highway headed to her father's birthday.
And from there, we've launched our case review series where we are covering more cases and less episodes. So just doing one episode per case.
And then I'm in the middle of working on season three of Cold War right now. So we're here at CrimeCon, an entire conference dedicated to the genre of true crime.
So I'm curious from each one of you, how long have you been a true crime fan? Like, what was that journey like for you? For me, I mean, I think the moniker true crime has kind of become something more representative of a larger genre that's existed for a while. I mean, going back to Unsolved Mysteries, I mean, I used to love that as a kid.
It scared the shit out of me. But my mom let me watch Unsolved Mysteries.
And I've always been fascinated by things that are unsolved, things that we can't explain or figure out. I mean, you could go back to like, again, Agatha Christie book.
It's just the suspense of not knowing. And just to me, that bothers me.
And it gets this little curiosity bug in my brain going. And so for me, it's always been about solving a mystery and telling that story.
And so in 2016, when I made Up and Vanished season one, I took a new approach and I made a podcast where I was going to personally go investigate an unsolved missing persons case, which at the time I had no real business doing. And that's really ultimately why I'm here today was just kind of taking a leap out of my comfort zone.
And, you know, for those who don't know me personally, or like what would maybe drive me, it never really is about the nitty gritty true crime parts of it. It's not about the forensics.
It's not about, you know, these are all interesting things to me, but it's, to me, it's about who the hell did it or what, what happened in like that part of it drives me. And as I've kind of grown into my shoes a little bit more, I've just tried to push the envelope more there because I feel like it's more authentic to me.
And it's what I have more control over. If I, if there's a suspect to a murder case and I know where they live, well, I could go knock on their door.
And so that's kind of where I'm at. But true crime is, I think, a little bit different to everybody.
But I think at the end of the day, I think that people are curious. They want to know why people do fucked up shit.
And they want to learn from it. And it's okay to have a little bit of a morbid curiosity.
I think if you don't have that, then maybe you're one of the people who's killing people out here. I agree with that.
He's like, touche. Pretty much all of that is true for me.
I've always been really inquisitive. I've been very curious.
Status untraced in the disappearance of Justin Alexander Shetler for me was, Justin himself was so fascinating. He was this guy that gave up everything he owned and already lived all these crazy, adventurous lives of being, you know, crossing the Himalayas in flip-flops or becoming a monk or living with indigenous tribes.
And that's unique to you though, right? Because not every true crime story, you felt connected to the way he lived his life. Well, in the fact that I had always aspired to do things like that, not that I had done things like that.
So to me, it was kind of like that childhood hero that I grew up wanting to be. And the mystery of what happened to him was so fascinating.
There's so many different things that were just so odd about his disappearance that I immediately felt like I had to know what happened. I think that's, that it was my draw to true crime originally.
I guess still is too. Yeah.
I've always been into true crime as far as I can remember. Um, my parents were both into it.
So on the tv growing up like forensic files and stuff or what yeah forensic files more uh they were more like dateline 2020 you know those specials uh when they were on but friends look a little bit of forensic files unsolved mysteries like you mentioned one of my favorite shows to this day i still i still re-watch them oh yeah great re-watch oh so good it's so good uh and then met my wife, she was an even bigger true crime fan than I was. So then all of a sudden I went from like watching sports at nighttime to like we'd fall asleep with like forensic files on the TV because, you know, it's just if that's what you want to watch.
So it's just I've just always been around and always had an interest but didn't anticipate doing a podcast about it. But it's like you both on like you you find that story and your heart's just in it and you're just so uh you know you're just so wrapped up in it and just want to get answers like just want to make sense of this this problem um like like pain said i think we all have a little bit of a problem solver in us and and want to fix injustices and things that we see wrong.

So, yeah, you know, doing that was really cool because it was something I think I always envisioned was like being a creative and maybe even specifically in the true crime space.

But I didn't put in the work to do it.

I didn't go to school for it.

I didn't like try to go make it happen.

It just like how do you do that?

Right.

I don't know.

Exactly.

I don't know.

Just do it.

You just do it.

Nike. You know? Yeah.
But, you you know the stars aligned and here I am so I'm curious like why why podcasting uh and pain specifically for you well I guess Liam you too because you both come from more of like a film background so why why is podcasting the platform that you were like yeah I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna take it to podcasting and I like that's the right way. I was at the point in my life and career where I was dead broke and I just finished binging Making a Murderer and The Jinx when they had just came out.
And to this day, they're still a landmark, legendary, premium documentary true crime series. And I just had this stupid thought at the time i was like i mean i i couldn't stop thinking about the cases and i was like how does one like become the person who does this like like did they just say hey i'm gonna go do this how did they even like put together the resources to do that at all? And that puzzled me.
And so, actually, I never even said this before, but early on, I used to watch ID Channel 2, and there were some shows that, no offense, I thought were pretty trash, but I still watched them and kind of liked them. And I was like, maybe I should email some of the producers of this, not telling them that their show is trash, but more like, hey, can I work on this show? Or I don't know, how could I get involved? No response.
And then I was on a road trip with my friend to Louisville, actually. And Serial had just came out.
And the first five episodes of the podcast serial were out he's like dude you gotta listen to this show and i'm like okay what is it is his audio shows like man i don't like like audio radio shit he's like just trust me and so we binged it on the way up there uh got the episode five we're there for like three days and then a new one had come out and we got to binge that on the way up there, uh, got the episode five, we're there for like three days. And then a new one had come out and we got to binge that on the way back.
And then from the rest was just me at my house waiting for Sarah Koenig to upload that last one. And, um, you know, culmination of events a few months later, I kind of went back to the drawing board on, okay, if I wanted to make a true crime show, what's my entry point? And I was like, you know what? I never imagined how enthralled and compelled I could be by an audio show the way that Serial Season 1 did for me.
And so it told me that that was possible. Thankfully, I've been like an editor of video stuff for a majority of my life.
And so I just had the crazy idea of, you know what, fuck it. I'm going to go find a case in my home state and go put together a true crime podcast about it.
And I don't know what it should sound like. And I'm just going to make it sound like, I guess whatever whatever I would want to listen to as someone who didn't like listening to audio shows.
Right. And that was just the basic premise.
And then, you know, that evolved over time. But that's how I got into it.
And I think something audio only like allows you to do that video doesn't because I think something that Alex and I did a lot when working on Status and Traces, we would constantly go, okay, but why is it better as audio than as video? And the thing that we kept on coming back to is, okay, you're most likely doing something when you're listening to a podcast. You're driving, you're working, you're doing something typically.
So like, how can you put that person or put yourself in their head? So they're in the same adventure kind of as you are, but you're, you're with it. And the same way that you read a book and sometimes you add context to the pages, I think adding that audio, you get to hear all of these interviews and things like that, but you actually get to feel like you're there with them in a way that you, you're not watching it on TV.
You're kind of there with them. So that was, that was kind of one of the things that made us lean back into it while creating the, you know, the podcast itself.
I don't know. That's not necessarily why I chose a podcast.
I think I chose a podcast because of circumstances, the same way that I fell into doing this in the, in the first place. So did I.
Yeah, exactly. I think it was more circumstantial than just anything else.
But I think that there is something to podcasts having a special edge over, not necessarily edge, but it's in its own medium for a reason. And I think that there's a true crime docuseries, I think fit very well into that because you are interviewing people.
You are generally trying to solve something and you can really be drawn in

and pulled with that in that way. Yeah.
Yeah. There's something like attractive about podcasting.
Like it just, it just feels more feasible. I don't come from film, but maybe you all can speak on it.
But I just imagine like getting into podcasting has to be immensely easier than film. I could be wrong though.
That's also true. That was also one of the reasons.
I mean, like coming from a filmmaking background, I'm like, I don't want to raise money to do this. I went to Best Buy.
I Googled podcast starter pack. Didn't exist.
Seeing them now, I'm just like, lucky bastards. Because there was just not any sort of guidance online for how to get started.
But it turns out it was just very simple. It was just a microphone and something to record into.
And I was like, oh, duh. But now they make it all neat.
And it looks more. That's why, yeah, it's even easier to get into it now, probably.
But yeah, I think it's cool for me because honestly, I probably don't make culpable unless I listen to Up and Vanish. I always say I'm the same way.
I listen to Serial. I still vividly remember binging it, and it got me into it.
It was the first like, oh, this is cool. I didn't even know that they did these types of stories.
The ones I'm watching late at night, they do these in audio only. I'm interested in that.
That's cool. And then what was it, a year later when the first season of Up and Vanished came out? Yeah, about so.
Yeah. And that was, uh, I listened to that and was just enthralled and, and to hear somebody who openly is like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm gonna give this a try.
There was, um, it was encouraging for somebody like me who was even considering that as an idea of like, Hey, maybe I could do this too, actually. And so that was very much a blueprint in a lot of ways and kind of helped jumpstart that idea of like, I could do something like this.
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Yeah, Payne, I'm sure you get that feedback a lot from listeners.

Like, just the connection that people can have with you because you're there.

Your mindset is like, I'm diving in.

I'm digging in.

I want to know.

But also, I don't want to put on this front that like, I know exactly what I'm doing because this is my first time.

Tell us a little bit more about that.

Like, what is that process like for you of like, trying something new while also not being like an expert coming into it? what I'm doing because this is my first time. Tell us a little bit more about that.
What is

that process like for you of trying something new while also not being an expert coming into it? If you're watching a movie, a lot of times it's with your friends or your significant other on the couch and you're not both wearing headphones, right? So I think there's oftentimes, I don't know the statistics, but there's a more personal side of, you know, I'm listening to this person talk about whatever, this unsolved crime into my ears. And you start to follow along.
And like, I've done the same thing with other shows. I felt that way with Sarah Koenig.
I don't know her, but I bet you, you know, if I ever met her, I'd be like, oh, my God, you know, I feel like I know you. And she's like, no, you don't.
And I'm like, I know. But I think that part of podcasting is special and like is especially in the true crime genre, feeling like you're at the edge of the seat or right there with like an investigative journalist who, you know, it feels like you're a part of it in a way that you can't really recreate many other places.
Right. And so I think that that's, and I didn't even really know that going into making up and vanished.
I kind of realized that after making episodes and realizing how they felt and sounded to me and sort of just general feedback, and I just kind of leaned more into, you know, peeling the curtain back and it being okay that I don't have the credentials. Maybe that's what's kind of interesting about this.
You know, this whole thing could bomb, but at least it was authentic. And I really was only making a podcast back then as a stepping stone to try to do something bigger in my mind, like a TV show or a documentary, I didn't think that there was any business or money to be made in podcasting.
I thought cereal was just a really cool thing that happened. And that was the end.
I'm going to use this as a blanket blueprint for how I would do a podcast,

go do my own, and maybe that's my proof of concept to sell to the money guy. Hey, pick me.
I want to do one of those ID channel shows that I hate. That I emailed you about.
That I emailed you about. You never got back to me.
I do think that having it uniquely starting as an amateur and going into it, again, makes it more relatable.

It's just like, have you ever seen Don't Fuck With Cats?

Yeah.

Yeah, that to me was more relatable because none of them had any business doing that which then leads to finding something which is unique yeah i think that's kind of the sums up the nature of this industry generally yeah what do you what do you think because you know i i look at serial and up and vanish and then it's it's funny to hear you say that like you were like inspired by both of them. Right.
And I feel like that's just the natural evolution of, of how things go, which is, it's, it's cool to hear you say that. Right.
But what was it for you though? Like, I guess just, um, dipping your toe in the water. It was, you hit on something a minute ago

that made me think of something you were talking about.

Like once you got into it, like that perspective changes.

And I didn't know if I would actually enjoy doing it.

Like I just, it was more like a challenge.

Like I always say it was on my bucket list.

Like after I listened to Serial,

it was like on my bucket list, right?

I was like, I'm gonna do that someday.

And like I said, I give a lot of credit to you because listening to you, I mean, Sarah Koenig, Sarah Koenig. Like, she's kind of a big deal in this space, you know? Where are you, by the way, Sarah? She's not here.
She probably had better engagements. But you, on the other hand, getting into it, were just an amateur.
This guy's just fucking normal. I'm like, this guy has no idea what he's talking about.
This guy ain't doing shit. Like, I don't know.
I could do better. But no.
No, I get it, though. But yeah, it just made it seem like, okay, that's doable.
Like, I can definitely do that. But at the same time, I didn't necessarily expect to enjoy doing it because none of my career up to that point was anything remotely close to that field.
I mean, I worked in, like, healthcare and telecommunications, a bunch of random shit. Yeah, it could have easily been bunch of random shit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it didn't really make sense at the same time to even be trying it.
Like I, I shouldn't have been the one doing it. Right.
But I found something I loved. You get in the weeds of it and all of a sudden you realize like, wait, actually I'm enjoying this.
Like this is the most fun I've ever had doing work before. And the most meaning that I've put into work.
There's never a dull moment, right? Never a dull moment. There may be a lot of stressful moments, but it's not dull.
It's stressful.

There's definitely purpose too. Oh yeah.
Yeah. It challenges yourself in ways that maybe you

never had before. Right.
Right. That.
And then like, there's a responsibility that you immediately

start to feel to the victim's families and finding answers. There's a lot of things that just start

to like, that's something different. It forces self-reflection a little bit too, right? Oh,

100% yeah

so one of the things

that keep you up at night

I guess as a

Thank you. the victim's families and finding answers.
There's a lot of things that just start to like, that's something different. It forces self-reflection a little bit too, right? Oh, 100%.
Yeah. Yeah.
So what are the things that keep you up at night, I guess, as a creator or podcaster? I mean, are they more like process driven? Like I got an episode, it's coming out in a day, I'm falling behind, I got to get locked into the edit, or is it more story driven and like wrestling internally with, you know, what makes the cut? What the, you know, how much do I put into, you know, my own bias or thought process? Like what, what are the things that, that are kind of stressing you or keeping you up at night? There's been an evolution of different things that have done that, but I would say just like more recently and more, I guess, like more like six, seven years in the things that bother me the most or keep me up at night, which, uh, you know, it's not always the case is shit. Like, why is this person being like that? Like, why, why are they talking to me like that? What, what do I not understand about that from some human nature psychology thing? Like, or, you know, why would this person do this if this is what happened? And how do I bypass the obvious, fuck you, I don't want to talk to you? How do I get there? Because if I can't figure out a way to do that, then I'm just retelling a horrible tragedy.
And I don't have any genuine interest in doing that at all. And so if I ever feel like that's all I can do, then I'm probably out.
And so that will keep me up at at night and I lead with that and it opens up all these other doors and so much is out of your control. But, you know, I want to have a pulse and like a thumb on the persons of interest because most of the time in any cases I've looked into, that's what the police haven't been doing.
So if I'm going to go cover this and really do it, or if it's going to sound like that, then I'd rather get better sleep at night knowing that I really am doing that. And you can think whatever if I really am or not or if you would have done it differently.

That's fine.

But I go to sleep at night knowing that this shit's fucking hard.

And I did all that I could.

And I will learn from that and get better the next day.

But I really want to find the bad guy.

Because that's what the family is telling me.

They're not thinking that I'm going to get too scared or uncomfortable at some point and say, sorry, got to stop here. That's what mine would be.
I think the thing that I fixated on, I'm just going to do just status and trace because I have one. Great examples in there.
Yeah. I think the thing that I fixated on more than anything else was beyond how are we going to do this? Because everything was difficult finding.
know searching in another country is not easy and getting into another country during covid was not easy and all of those things but was finding a way to accurately tell the story and the findings while also honoring justin's legacy that was like i i constantly like i would go to i'd be like am i doing a good job of that always because i think that that for me was the thing that i constantly was thinking about i it's simple and sweet honestly yeah i think you answered it that's how i think that's how you do it you have to you have to constantly check yourself you have to remind yourself you don't just like say like day one i got it figured out and then day 365 still be in that same mindset right you fucked up that's the case. You got to be constantly like, okay, reshaping, re-evolving, look in the mirror.
How would they perceive this? I mean, you have a lot of experience with that. Yeah.
I mean, truthfully, to answer your question, not much keeps me up at night these days as far as work goes. Because that ambience, that works, right? Yeah.

No, it's just like you said, you mature into the role, you grow,

you learn how to work-life balance,

but there's always going to be those things that kind of nag at you.

For me, it's usually more like beating myself up,

like, damn, I should have asked them that question earlier,

or like, you know, did I sound like an idiot when I said the wrong name earlier like really really stupid stuff like that is honestly what I get hung up on it's kind of weird uh but no for the most part like I enjoy what I do and now where I'm at like it's just so much more of a breeze it's it's heavy at times it can be taxing investing in a case but like compared making season one, I didn't know what the fuck I was doing.

I didn't have the resources I have now.

I probably shaved years off my life working season one.

Oh, 100%.

Yeah, and you probably did too.

Absolutely.

You took four years to make your show.

I can't even imagine.

Four years, bro.

You got to times it four years.

You might have lost ten.

Yeah.

But no, now it's – I got a good team, good support system. I've matured into the role.
So, I mean, truthfully, not a lot keeps me up at night now. But you never forget those things that you felt dumb about, do you? No, no.
I mean, I've thought of those. Because also, there's no take backs usually.
Yeah. There's no redos.
Yeah, the ambience fix it at night. I think about it all day long, though.
I'm like,, I, that sounded so stupid when I said that they're probably going to hate me. Yeah.
I think that's just a piece of the rule. Yeah.
Yeah. That's a, yeah.
That's a, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's going to be how it is. You're like, yeah, I'm not cutting.
So you all are digging into stories that are really hard and can be very dark. So I'm curious, like the idea of like a moral compass,

like what does that mean to each one of you

and how do you bring that into your creative process?

I mean, if you polled every single person in this building,

they'd all give a slightly different answer.

Maybe it was just 0.1% different

of what their moral compass is,

what their belief system is,

what their religion is,

what they believe in, right? And so I think that's person to person. For me, the easiest way to always kind of just stay in a straight line is remembering one thing only.
There's prongs to it, but one main thing. There's a family out there who either doesn't know what happened to their loved one, knows just this information, or somebody murdered them, and they want to find out what happened.
I think as long as I'm not breaking any laws, and they feel okay about what I'm doing, then for the most part, generally speaking, all the other stuff I add is just my own two cents and my own opinion and my own moral compass. But staying on that is where I start.
If they're upset with me, then I probably did something wrong. Right.
And you might think that too. But if I'm leading with that, then we can take the risk that we might need to take to get to the answers.
And I mean, usually if a family is at a point in an unsolved case of one of their loved ones, and they're willing to make a true crime podcast about it,

right? Then they're already at the point where they're willing to take that risk. So I look at that as a responsibility of like, okay, am I just like one of those trope true crime podcasts or do they actually think that I can help? And what am I going to do to prove that to be true?

Or how hard am I going to push myself

to make it as true as I can within the means of my own control, right? Yeah, I mean, I agree pretty much wholeheartedly with that. I think it's, on top of this, it's finding the truth.
It's finding whatever you can find or furthering the case as far as you can further. It's doing what the family has not been able to do so far and it's finding a way to go do that.
To me, that's the social construct, like the contract that we sign with them when we start doing a case like this. We're going to put everything we can into figuring out what you haven't been able to figure out yet.
And you might not always agree on the same things. Which is definitely weird.
They might think that something happened and I'm thinking like, uh, there's no way. Now, I'm not going to come out bluntly and just say that blindly, right? But I'm going to consider that more than anyone else's opinion, you know? Yeah.
Because, you know, why do they think that? Right. Is there something to that? And as long as I'm listening and communicating, you know, if any of us are right and get somewhere, then we already forgot about that time where we were confused.
Right. The whole thing's confusing.
It's why we're here in the first place, right? Yep. Yeah, you really can't put it much better than pain did starting it off.
Definitely keeping the family at the center of it all and their trauma because none of us can truly put ourselves in their shoes. But we can do our best and we can be compassionate and try to understand who the victim was.
And that's always been like, you know, at the center

of what, you know, what I wanted to do with culpable was a lot of what started that was a conversation with the mom and just my heart went out for her and everything she'd done for five years, just like doing everything in her power to try to get justice for her son. And more than anything, even more than justice, just get answers.
Like you said, the not having answers, I'm working on a case right now. And John, you're familiar with this, where this girl doesn't even know the victim and is just helping out because every year she'd see at the anniversary this post about this kid that died in her hometown.
And flash forward years later, and she has a young child who dies while with a babysitter, it turned out to just be some virus, but for months they didn't have answers to that. And she said like that just completely changed her perspective of his case and was like, I want to help this family any way I can.
And I was like, heck I do too. Now she just said that like, Holy cow.
Like that's, that's tough, you know, losing a child. And then that's, that's what puts it into perspective of like, that's what it must feel like.
You know, when we didn't have those answers for two months, they haven't had answers for 25 years to their son's death. So, um, so that was just refreshed on that recently, uh, after meeting with them and talking about that.
So yeah, the family's got to be, uh, at the center of it all. And obviously even more central is the victim, but.
And family can mean a lot though. Family doesn't necessarily have to definitively mean mom and dad

Family is the victim. And family can mean a lot though.
Family doesn't necessarily have to definitively mean mom and dad. Families are different.
Sometimes it's a cousin, it's a sister, it's the best friend. It's the person who is spearheading some sort of...
Because it's difficult. Not everyone can do that at the same time.
But they're always going to be solely focused on justice for that person. And so you have to learn from them and stay closely tied to that.
Because you didn't come out of the womb naturally feeling that way. You can develop that compassion and empathy for the situation.
But it could never match what they're feeling. Yeah.
And so I just wanted to add that whoever that person is in their life or persons and aligning with that because they don't have any other motive other than finding the truth. And if you stick to that, I think that the rest you can navigate if you're just not a shitty person and you're actually considering what others may be thinking and feeling about what you're doing.
Yeah. The very first in-person interview I did for Untraced was with one of Justin's best friends.
And I sat down there and we're sitting across the table. And of course, this is the first time in the genre, first time in all of this.
And he's like, the not knowing is the hardest is the hardest part he's like if I know my friend is dead it's at least like I can start mourning he's like but if you but if you don't know like am I giving up on him I don't know that's still like it's a piece that just is always constantly running around so for me that like the answers and finding that is that is like the guy Which is also like why we just all three said we do this.

Yeah, exactly.

That would be absolutely maddening to not know.

Yeah.

That would be horrible.

Yeah.

Hey, Payne Lindsey here.

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$149 GLP-1s? Now that's Noom smart. Noom, the smart way's years removed, but they're dealing with a very difficult loss in their life, and you're asking difficult questions.
Even if you're not probing necessarily or trying to dig for information, but you're just trying to learn and discover. How do you process their grief and where they're at while also still understanding that you're trying to learn something in your own discovery process? Like how do you balance those two things? Just listen.
Yeah. You took my answer.
You could go deeper with more nuance, but they're sharing their emotions and you're just listening. Yeah.
You're listening and understanding and you don't forget that. Yeah.
Right?

And that's what I do.

Yeah. I just kind of just shut up.

And once, you know, maybe the tone of the room has changed a little bit, I'll shift it to, you know, a rational, realistic, positive, small step that we could all take together that goes in a direction so we don't feel like we're absolutely helpless that I actually truly believe in. But, you know, I'm not necessarily there to console them.
I'm there to listen and understand so I can take that information. They always know that they can call me and I'm always going to listen.
But most of the time, that's what they want. They want someone to hear them out.
That's why they're here. No one believed me.
The cops aren't listening. My family's tired of hearing me say this.
Well, I'm all ears, right? And I think that is really at the core, that's it. And with every person and situation, there's a lot of nuance to that.
But put quite simply, that's what I do is listen. And that's what you should be doing.
It's not the Payne Lindsay show. It's like, holy shit, this person is unpacking traumatic events and i'm just here i'm here listening yeah yeah that's exactly that i don't really have anything more to add to that it's it's not one conversation it's yeah many conversations you know and like for me i didn't end up getting to justin's like the specifics of's disappearance until, like, five or six sit-down conversations with both of his parents.
Like, we had done a lot of conversations about who he was, understanding Justin, before we ever really got into... You were beating around the bush.
Sometimes you had to. Kind of, but also, like, in a way, but it wasn't necessarily the specifics of...
it always comes down to what is actually there to learn immediately from it, right? But yeah, it's just listening and understanding and learning who the person is. And to be honest, the reason I did the show in the first place is because I was fascinated in Justin.
And that's authentic, and it's okay to show that. I think that builds trust.
Yeah. So listen, I think, listen, it's literally the answer to that.
It's the only answer I really have. I'm going to echo that same thing.
The only thing I would add is just like investing time. Like you can't just schedule out one four hour sit down and think, you know what, that one person only knows one detail.
I don't really need to spend an hour with them, but this is the family. Like I'm going to go spend four hours with them.
When I went into this, that's the mindset I had

was that you just kind of block out time. You talk to them once and then you go hit the ground

and figure out the next thing. It's not work from home job at a tech company.

Right. Right.
And it was just like, no, you really got to invest time, one, to understand them,

to connect with them on a deeper level. Ideally, I'd like to shed a tear with them at some point.
I mean, if you left me on red, I'd be upset too. Right.
And that's the thing. Like you said, the phone's got to be open.
You got to be willing to keep the conversation going because I've just seen time and time and time again where families want they don't want to, typically they don't want to talk about how rough their life was. They want to paint it in a different way.
And I totally understand that. But the longer you spend with them, the more open, the more trusting they are to talk about and get real with you.
And you worked on a case with me, you know what I'm talking about, where, I mean, we was like pulling teeth to like get answers out. Like that's all you want to say about their life?

You're awfully quiet.

And then over time, those walls start to come down.

You're like, oh, so they were addicted to drugs.

That's interesting.

Right.

Surprised you didn't say that when we first met.

Yeah, because your instinct would be like, that's not how my son died.

Right.

And it probably wasn't.

But we need to know everything, right?

Yep. And do I trust you enough to tell you that? Yeah.
If you're trusting us with this, we can only work with what we're getting. So it's not only listening, but also just investing the necessary time and being open to talking to those people, family, or like you said, friends.
I mean, often friends know way more than family. They usually do actually.
So friends are huge. So investing time with really anybody in the case, even persons of interest.
I think it's easy to approach an investigation or an interview, quote unquote, as a checklist. It's like, these are the people I got to talk to.
These are the things I got to learn. I'm going to go in there.
I'm going to ask these questions. Check.
But we've all talked about the humanity. I think at the end of the day, that is what has to drive it.
I'm sitting across from a human being. Maybe they are related to the victim.
Maybe they are somebody who knows something. Maybe they're a potential suspect.
But at the end of the day, they're a human. And I have to be able to learn more about what they could potentially be bringing to this story.
So you've all had very successful shows from an outside looking in perspective, right? Whether

it's ranking number of, you know, millions of downloads, you know, whatever it would be.

But I'm curious from each of you, like, what would you point to as the benchmark of success?

Ooh, man. So I had to ask myself that.
I think I have to often keep asking myself that, right? I think that the benchmark for success in really anything is what you determine it to be, right? There had been a time where I surpassed what I thought was even possible for a 28-year-old inexperienced person playing investigative journalist in a small Georgia town, right? But then, you know, the creative bone of my body and the childhood the dreams part of me was like, well, I'm not done yet. And so I had a like a another sort of, you know, big, like revelatory moment last year when I was making a new podcast that's out now called High Strange.
I took a little pivot and I did an eight part series investigating the UFO phenomenon from like a real objective, non tinfoil hat standpoint. And I was sitting there and at my house in like this studio that I have in there and I was playing it and I just, I stopped and I go, wow.
I was like, was like you know what's crazy this is my favorite place this moment right here is is outside of all of the good that comes with telling a true crime story and trying to find out what happened and bring justice as a creator this is it to be able to do this how however i kind of want to to a degree and it be my job and be able to keep pushing myself and be allowed to do that and like as a kid that's that that was the dream like I felt like throughout my whole career as a creator it's like all I ever was doing was begging people to take a chance on me right and so in that moment I realized that man it's not about all of the accolades those are cool those are fun It's like, was it well received? Did people respond to this?

Do you feel re-inspired by your own work? So I think your benchmark for success is a thing that you create for yourself that can evolve over time. And mine's continually evolving.
And I think it'd be different the next time you ask me but you know just recent recollection that that was the moment i had where i was like man i just i want to be able to keep doing this like to be able to go to alaska which is not cheap and not easy and go try to find out what happened to a missing person that is a like not everyone can do

that that and go try to find out what happened to a missing person, that is a, like, not everyone can do that. That, to me, is fucking cool.
And so I'm cool with that, and I'm not going to lose sight of how special that is and how fortunate I am to do that and try not to squander that. I think the one I'm hoping still comes, the one that hit immediately wasn't hitting number one.
It was like two days after we had released the show, the dad and one of the best, one of his best friends had binged the whole show and called me and were like, we were like crying. We were like, like learn new things.
We were like happy tears, sad tears that, that to

me was the most, like, that was the point of the show. Like it was to make it that way.
So I think,

and in, in the future, I'm hoping that other people will, I personally find Justin himself

to be inspiring. And I hope other people will end up finding the same thing.
Cause I think Justin

from all the conversations that I had with friends and family, um, his goal was to leave

Thank you. So that would be a sign of success for me.
Yeah. His legacy is, is alive in the same way that it inspired you.
And I can only imagine as someone who was close to him, that's special because that's what he was all about. And I hope that translates.
So to me, that's, that's a sign of success. A hundred percent.
Yeah. Like Payne said, it kind of depends on where you're at in career and life, I guess.
But I definitely remember feeling like all those same things, like the accolades, the feedback, the thanks.

That all meant a lot at the time.

But I think where I'm at now, I just look back and I say,

I did work that I did not like doing for 15 years of my life.

So to be able to do this as my work is like,

I think that's my benchmark. You don't want to go back? No.
No't want to go back no no i wouldn't want to put the tie back on no i wouldn't work in any of those jobs now are you don't miss those those uh quarterly meetings uh there was just void of meaning you know like yeah purposeless yeah purpose machine so to find not only something like doing but something that you feel like it has purpose and you're doing a good work, a service almost in some ways, means a lot. So I don't take that for granted.
Special thanks to Dylan Harrington, Mike Rooney, and Dayton Cole for support on this episode. If you haven't listened to Up and Vanished, Culpable, or Status Untraced, go right now in your podcast app and follow the shows.
And be sure to follow us on our socials, at TenderfootTV, for more information on the

latest Tenderfoot shows. Thanks for listening.
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