Kristal Reisinger: Part 2 - The Men Who Knew Too Much

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Speaker 2 Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is intended for mature audiences and may include topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence, rape, and murder.

Speaker 2 The names of survivors have been changed for anonymity purposes. Testimony shared by guests of the show is their own and does not reflect the views of Tenderfoot TV or Odyssey.

Speaker 2 Thank you so much for listening.

Speaker 1 Patience, my friends. That's something I've told myself over and over again, especially in season two,

Speaker 1 the disappearance of Crystal Risinger.

Speaker 1 And I'm not the best at it.

Speaker 1 If you've been keeping up, you might have noticed that some of these episodes have been coming out in a bit of a strange order.

Speaker 1 Dates have been off, timelines have felt a little messy, and I just want to say that's on me.

Speaker 1 The thing is, right now we're not just putting out a podcast. We're also getting real-time feedback from the real people involved in these cases.

Speaker 1 People who are there, people who are still living with the fallout. And when they come to me with new information, I have to make a decision.
Wait or hold it for later.

Speaker 1 Or move fast and get it to you as soon as possible. And we're choosing to move fast.

Speaker 1 So while it may feel slow and parsed out here at first, just stick with me.

Speaker 1 And what you can absolutely count on is that you're going to get a brand new episode of Up and Vanished every single Friday over the next month, no matter what.

Speaker 1 And on top of that, we're likely to drop even more episodes in between. As these new updates come in, we ingest the information and then give it back to you.

Speaker 1 And just as a reminder, Every one of these episodes is all leading us back to the Up and Vanished season 4 finale in the Midnight Sun.

Speaker 1 So we're still on track, and we're still going to take this all the way to the end.

Speaker 1 All right, let's get into it.

Speaker 5 The Navajo Indians have considered Creststone sacred ground.

Speaker 7 It was a very bright place during the day, and then that night was a very dark place.

Speaker 11 Crystal Crystal was a very smart, talented young lady.

Speaker 6 The one thing she loved more than anything in life was our daughter.

Speaker 5 Some people were scared after the podcast came out.

Speaker 4 She was about ready to go to the police about being raped.

Speaker 3 People didn't want her to make that report.

Speaker 4 I suspect foul play.

Speaker 1 Justice will be served and get ready because we're going to get everybody else involved.

Speaker 1 Crystal had a best friend named Mikey, and his mother, Angela, had been asking questions around Creststone, getting close to people who knew what really happened.

Speaker 1 One of those people was tight with Dreddy Brian.

Speaker 1 Now, if you've listened to season two, this name may sound familiar. Dreddy Bryan.
His real name is Brian Otten. And he's right up there next to Catfish.
when it comes to persons of interest.

Speaker 1 His presence in this story is undeniable. Dreddy Brian had a relationship with Crystal.
He lived with her. And according to people who knew him, he was dangerous.

Speaker 8 Some of the names we need to edit out

Speaker 8 is kind of my eyes and ears up there.

Speaker 8 She was friends with Brian.

Speaker 8 Obviously, they think he's involved, or they think he knows something.

Speaker 8 I said, you be careful with him.

Speaker 8 That's when she told me you were right.

Speaker 8 She heard him say that Crystal's better off dead.

Speaker 1 This is after she went missing?

Speaker 8 Yeah, she told me this a couple weeks ago.

Speaker 8 Dreddy Brian is his nickname. He has been overheard many times saying Crystal deserves to be dead.
And it's a good thing she's dead. That's really telling.

Speaker 8 There is that group of people that are really heavy into the drug scene.

Speaker 8 There are messages saying, hey man, you haven't paid me for my drugs.

Speaker 8 The problem that I see is no one's going to talk unless they move out of Prestone because they go disappear too.

Speaker 8 They're very dangerous people from what Wayne says.

Speaker 8 I asked Wayne, how does he make a living? Well he doesn't have to. His dad gives him money.

Speaker 1 Wayne was a local police officer and from the very start something about him felt off. His behavior towards me was strange, sometimes even outright suspicious.

Speaker 1 But he had an incredibly close relationship with Angela. And he told her a lot about the case.
It makes you wonder, why was a cop so loose-lipped about an ongoing investigation?

Speaker 1 And why did he seem so interested in making sure people knew his version of events?

Speaker 1 But what really stands out is what he didn't say.

Speaker 8 He lived with her.

Speaker 8 He ended up crashing her car and Crystal was very upset about that and they had a falling out.

Speaker 8 That may have been part of the catalyst.

Speaker 8 He's the one that ended up bringing her to Crestone for the summer.

Speaker 1 The more I dug into Brian's past, the more unsettling things became.

Speaker 1 He wasn't just a guy that Crystal knew. He was a part of her life before she even came to Crestone.

Speaker 1 And the closer she got to the end, the more tangled up he seemed to be.

Speaker 8 When I talked to Brian that night, I talked to him four hours.

Speaker 8 Four hours talking to him. I got a pretty good feel that he was not a good guy.
Certain things that he would say,

Speaker 8 tones that he had,

Speaker 8 it was not sincere.

Speaker 6 When did he say that he last saw her?

Speaker 8 The drum circle, and she was seen walking off from it.

Speaker 8 You could tell that it was not sincere.

Speaker 1 So here's where we're at. We know that Dreddy Brian, Brian Otten, was involved in Crystal's life.
We know his name keeps coming up over and over. And we know that people were scared of him.

Speaker 1 But how do we get from suspicion to proof? Well, back in 2016, Crystal's friend Mikey did something kind of risky. He picked up the phone and called Brian himself.

Speaker 1 Here's a transcript from that phone call.

Speaker 9 The last time I actually saw Crystal was over a month ago, maybe around six weeks back.

Speaker 9 I remember the last drum circle, it was about two and a half weeks ago.

Speaker 9 I was drumming for hours,

Speaker 9 drinking and smoking, and I swear I heard her voice.

Speaker 9 Someone else said they thought she was there too, but I can't say for sure.

Speaker 9 The last time I actually spoke with her was the day after the full moon before last.

Speaker 9 She came by and mentioned that Catfish had posted something about me on Facebook.

Speaker 9 We had argued because

Speaker 9 she did some work at Catfish's house and

Speaker 9 didn't pay her.

Speaker 9 During that conversation, she told me she thought someone might have drugged her. She wasn't sure, but it was something she mentioned.

Speaker 9 I know Crystal was on a very spiritual path.

Speaker 9 Sometimes, she felt disconnected from the world,

Speaker 9 like she didn't belong here.

Speaker 9 Either that or she had stopped taking her medication.

Speaker 9 And she had a tendency to party hard, honestly, probably harder than anyone else in her group. As for the people she was hanging around, they seemed okay.

Speaker 9 She had good friends, but I can't say for sure what kind of crowd she was with all the time.

Speaker 9 Some were more spiritual. Some were just partying.

Speaker 9 She had spent time at Catfish's place.

Speaker 9 I actually went to talk to Catfish recently. He's not great at hiding emotions

Speaker 9 and

Speaker 9 he didn't seem nervous or like he was lying. If he was involved, he'd have to be a real sociopath, but um

Speaker 9 but I didn't get that vibe

Speaker 9 from him.

Speaker 9 If she did go off into the mountains, I wouldn't know exactly where.

Speaker 9 There are trails and campgrounds just a mile or so outside town. And she used to navigate by the stars, so it's possible she went out there, but

Speaker 9 this town is small.

Speaker 9 If she were around, people would know.

Speaker 1 Listening to the call, you start to notice patterns. Deflection, evasion.
A guy who's just a little too careful with his words. And then there's moments where he seems to slip.

Speaker 1 where he seems to say a little too much.

Speaker 1 This brings us to a man named Sean.

Speaker 1 Sean was a guy I met in Creststone who was very close to all the key players. And his stories, well, they were strange.
The details always shifted. Sometimes things didn't quite add up.

Speaker 1 But what made Sean different was that he was willing to talk.

Speaker 1 Over and over again.

Speaker 1 So I kept calling him.

Speaker 13 I've heard Catfish several times. He's woken up and said something.

Speaker 10 Catfish was like, I didn't think they'd kill her. I've heard him say that a couple times.

Speaker 10 I don't know if you know this, but I was living with Catfish up until like a month ago.

Speaker 10 I just heard that Brian should have admitted to it.

Speaker 13 I think she's in Brendan Pulver's mom's basement.

Speaker 10 Catfish is not a stupid person.

Speaker 10 If he was going to plan anything, it would be to the T.

Speaker 10 And I'm thinking that they moved the body more than once, would be my guess.

Speaker 10 And I'm going to be honest with you, Brian's a very dark person.

Speaker 10 I think they incinerated

Speaker 13 would be my guess. That they did three, that they maybe three or four different times.

Speaker 10 And then finally they incinerated it would be my guess.

Speaker 13 And that's what I'd heard.

Speaker 10 This is a small community, you know, and people talk.

Speaker 10 Yeah, there's an incinerator there.

Speaker 10 I'm not quite sure, but I just heard that there's an incinerator there. I've never seen it.

Speaker 10 They're scared of catfish. A lot of people are scared of catfish.
I'm scared of catfish a little bit. I mean, I'm scared of Potter.
I'm scared of what he's.

Speaker 10 I'm not scared of anyone else that was involved.

Speaker 13 His family has power.

Speaker 10 I mean, they have major, major power. They've had private detectives follow drug dealers around and have them arrested to keep the drugs away from catfish.
I mean, they're very powerful people.

Speaker 1 For over a year, Sean and I went back and forth, mostly on Facebook Messenger. Every now and then, he'd drop little pieces of information.

Speaker 1 Some of it useful, some of it outright bizarre. But every once in a while, he'd say something that made me stop and think, is he just repeating rumors? Or does he actually know something?

Speaker 1 Here's a summary of our year-long exchange on Facebook.

Speaker 14 I can talk,

Speaker 14 but... I'm working.

Speaker 11 Call me later.

Speaker 11 Look, man, I talked to John, Catfish, and I changed my mind. I don't think he did it himself, but I think he paid for it.

Speaker 11 Or set it up.

Speaker 14 That's more his style.

Speaker 11 He wouldn't have the stomach to actually do it without breaking down.

Speaker 11 You want to know what happened?

Speaker 14 Crystal blackmailed the wrong people.

Speaker 11 She was raped by Pulver, Otten, Keenan.

Speaker 11 That much I know.

Speaker 11 She tried to use it against them, especially John, and then...

Speaker 11 Well, John knows how to handle problems.

Speaker 11 I think he paid someone, or convinced Otten and Pulver to take care of it.

Speaker 14 Josh?

Speaker 11 I think they brought him in after the fact, maybe to set him up, maybe by accident.

Speaker 11 But listen, you don't understand how Christone works. Everyone acts like these hippie mountain people.
But it's all a front. There are dangerous people here.

Speaker 11 And when you start asking questions, people start talking. And when people start talking, people start disappearing.

Speaker 11 You want to crack this case?

Speaker 11 Bring them all in together. Make them think one of them is already talking, and they'll fold.

Speaker 11 You only need a whisper of betrayal, and they'll turn on each other.

Speaker 11 I know these types. I've seen some crazy shit, man.

Speaker 13 Pulver

Speaker 13 and catfish.

Speaker 11 They have nightmares. Like wake-up screaming nightmares.
Heard Pulver screaming about the girl. Catfish too, man.
They argue about it. Two falls ago, Pulver shot John in the hand.

Speaker 11 They were blaming each other. That's on record somewhere.
And I don't know if I even want to say this, but there's someone else.

Speaker 13 Someone worse.

Speaker 11 Someone already in prison for something just like this.

Speaker 11 John and him

Speaker 11 deny knowing each other, but I know for a fact they do. Wouldn't be surprised if he was the one actually hired to do it.
I don't want to say his name here, but call me later. And now,

Speaker 11 now I'm fucked. People know I talked.

Speaker 13 It's out.

Speaker 11 I got a hit on me.

Speaker 11 You don't get it, Pain.

Speaker 13 In my world, a snitch is a snitch.

Speaker 14 And snitches die.

Speaker 11 I was told straight up. It'll be someone I trust.

Speaker 13 Someone close to me.

Speaker 11 That's how it's going to happen. Big Cat? Harmless?

Speaker 14 Yeah.

Speaker 11 Because anyone he's done something to is already dead. Catfish?

Speaker 11 His family will pay to protect him. You don't get how deep this goes.
Listen, Brian Otten? He's in Salita.

Speaker 14 Brendan Pulver?

Speaker 11 Still in Crestone.

Speaker 11 Josh Pierce? California. El Centro, I think.
Now's your shot, man.

Speaker 10 Catfish is in jail.

Speaker 11 If you pressure him right, he'll crack. He's not as strong as he pretends to be.

Speaker 11 Tell Cahill someone else got arrested and started talking. That'll make him panic.

Speaker 11 And look, I've been a mess. I know that.

Speaker 11 I blamed you for a lot of shit, but I get it now. You're actually trying.
And I want these people to pay.

Speaker 11 One last thing.

Speaker 13 Michael Burke.

Speaker 14 Fallsburg, New York.

Speaker 11 Maria Scorset. Look up her case.
They ruled it a suicide.

Speaker 14 But it wasn't.

Speaker 11 Same kind of guy as fish.

Speaker 11 Same kind of evil. That's all I got, man.

Speaker 11 I'm done with this.

Speaker 11 But if something happens to me, now you know.

Speaker 1 At this point, we have two names that won't go away. Dreddy Brian and Catfish John.
No matter where I looked, everything in this case. led back to them.

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Speaker 1 There's someone I want you to hear from. She's not from Creststone, but she spent enough time there and with the people involved in Crystal's case to know exactly how things worked there.

Speaker 1 She wasn't some outsider with wild theories. She was someone who knew these people personally.

Speaker 1 She knew the key players, Dreddy Bryant, Catfish. And over the years, she started noticing things they weren't saying out loud.

Speaker 1 The things that they avoided, the things they laughed off when they thought no one was listening. I first got in contact with her through Facebook.

Speaker 1 She was nervous, because people who talk in Creststone have a way of disappearing. But eventually, over the course of almost a year, she could no longer keep quiet.

Speaker 1 During her time in Creststone, she became close with Dreddy Bryan. Close enough for him to let his guard down.
And she had seen firsthand what that looked like.

Speaker 1 What you're about to hear is a summarized version of a Facebook conversation I had with her that took place over the course of almost two years.

Speaker 7 Everyone is angry about you asking them questions.

Speaker 7 I left town.

Speaker 7 I have something I want to say, but I'm scared.

Speaker 7 If anyone finds out I said it, I'm in danger.

Speaker 7 Crystal is buried on property owned by the Strom family in Baca.

Speaker 7 Good luck solving it.

Speaker 7 You can't go up against wealthy families. Their kids can do whatever they want, and money covers everything.

Speaker 7 The Pierce boys won't confess, and Catfish won't either. They drugged Crystal, held her there, and took photos.
She overdosed, and they called in others to help hide it.

Speaker 7 She wasn't the first girl they did this to. Everyone knows but is too afraid to speak up.

Speaker 7 I was threatened after talking to you because you got close to the truth. I had to leave.

Speaker 7 She's not in a mine shaft. She's buried in the Baca.

Speaker 7 Someone threatened me saying it wouldn't be a problem to add another body there.

Speaker 7 Josh Pierce knows. Robert knows.
Brian knows.

Speaker 7 But they won't talk because it would implicate them. Crystal was dosed.
with heroin and meth, then buried in Baca.

Speaker 7 If this information helps, give Akasha the reward money. Tell her it's from her mom, a gift from the spirit world.

Speaker 7 I'm deleting this conversation.

Speaker 7 Don't respond.

Speaker 7 He trusts me, and he was drunk. Only kids and drunk people tell the truth.

Speaker 7 I got a confession from Brian Otten.

Speaker 7 I'm sorry, but I didn't record it.

Speaker 7 I'm sorry, Payne.

Speaker 7 Brian said this.

Speaker 7 I threw her into the living room from the balcony. It broke her bones, and she died.

Speaker 7 He told me this yesterday.

Speaker 7 I'm with him right now.

Speaker 7 I'll try to get him to say something on tape.

Speaker 7 He admitted this to me about an hour ago. He said, I did something extremely violent and got away with it.

Speaker 7 We were sitting with four others, but no one else seemed to realize what he meant. He said,

Speaker 7 she was everywhere.

Speaker 7 Don't message me back. I almost got caught when he looked at my phone.

Speaker 7 He's drinking a lot and getting comfortable.

Speaker 7 I'm scared.

Speaker 7 He's suspecting something.

Speaker 7 His vibe changed.

Speaker 7 He said there were witnesses. He thinks he got away with it, but he's still paranoid.

Speaker 7 I'm scared.

Speaker 7 I just left immediately. I'm so sorry.

Speaker 7 But find that balcony.

Speaker 7 Pain, why is it that Brian has confessed to multiple people yet nothing has been done?

Speaker 7 Same story. He threw her from a balcony in a jealous rage.

Speaker 7 Why can't they charge him?

Speaker 7 Crystal was cremated.

Speaker 7 She's the sunrise over Sangre de Cristos.

Speaker 7 Find that balcony.

Speaker 1 Angela had been digging just as much as I had. And the things she was uncovering, they all made one thing very clear: Crystal's story wasn't just some tragic mystery, it was a cover-up.

Speaker 8 The landlord talked to her for a long time.

Speaker 8 She went up Crystal's apartment, which was above her, knocked on the door, and Crystal came to the door crying. She had been raped.

Speaker 8 She had been drugged and she had been raped. Crystal was debating on whether to go to the police or not about it.

Speaker 8 I've always had the feeling that maybe two people were involved in her rape, and the other one may have been Brian.

Speaker 8 Because Catfish and Brian were pretty close.

Speaker 8 If she found out that Brian raped her, he very well could have done away with her.

Speaker 8 Someone has to come forward and be willing to do it, go on record, and testify.

Speaker 1 At a certain point, I realized I needed a different approach. So I did something a little unconventional.
I made a fake Facebook account. Sound familiar? Well, this was not my first rodeo, I guess.

Speaker 1 But on this fake Facebook, I started talking to Dreddy Bryan directly. He knew that I wasn't who I said I was, and that was fine.
But for whatever reason, that didn't stop him from talking to me.

Speaker 9 I'm in Cincinnati dealing with an old driver's license hold from a past charge. Should be wrapped up by summer.

Speaker 9 I had a pending DUI charge I never went to court for, so I'm handling it now.

Speaker 9 Not sure who you are, but thanks for the cryptic message from a faceless stranger who seems to know me, I guess.

Speaker 9 Is this Eric in the Red Jeep?

Speaker 9 You don't know what you're talking about.

Speaker 9 I've told all I know.

Speaker 9 Oh, I'm so fucking terrified. You want to talk sometime, Mr.
Anonymous Texter?

Speaker 9 I've been forthcoming. I've talked extensively with her adopted family, her best friend, and the police.
I'm not scared at all.

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Speaker 1 It's funny the way that people reveal themselves. Sometimes they'll just come out and admit things.
Other times, it's what they don't say.

Speaker 1 And with Brian Otten, the more we talked, the more I started to see through him.

Speaker 1 And then there was someone else. Another woman that got close to Dreddy Brian.
Again, this was also a Facebook message conversation that took place over a year.

Speaker 28 Payne, people are blowing up my inbox. They think I know Brian Otten.

Speaker 28 I grew up next to a Brian Otten in Ohio. He was my childhood friend.
This cannot be the same guy. He's part of a normal Catholic family.
still living on the same street I grew up on.

Speaker 28 He has zero connections to Colorado. These people have it wrong.

Speaker 1 Years after season two of the podcast had ended, it was all starting to click together. Everyone suspected him, and yet nothing had been done about it.
Why?

Speaker 28 Payne, I just called them.

Speaker 17 I can't believe this.

Speaker 28 It's the same Brian Otten.

Speaker 28 I'm trying to figure out how to approach this. These people are like family to me.

Speaker 28 Payne, I got in touch with Brian. He's back in Cincinnati now.

Speaker 28 He's staying at a hotel. Just got out of rehab, but he's drinking heavily.

Speaker 28 I called him on the phone. We talked about Crystal the whole time.
Brian told me he met her, fell in love, and brought her to Creston.

Speaker 28 He said he was at a party with her that night, and there were at least 12 to 15 people there too.

Speaker 28 Brian said he feels guilty every day for bringing Crystal to Creston.

Speaker 28 But something is off about this.

Speaker 28 There are gaps in his story.

Speaker 28 Pain, he agreed to let me record him, but he said he won't talk to you.

Speaker 1 Just like every other bad guy in an up-and-vanish story, I needed to talk to him myself. And that's exactly what I set out to do.

Speaker 28 He sometimes pretends like he doesn't know about the podcast, then later admits he's listened to it.

Speaker 28 He is definitely distancing himself but is willing to talk to me in person.

Speaker 28 Pain,

Speaker 28 I need your guidance here.

Speaker 28 Pain,

Speaker 28 I think Brian killed her.

Speaker 28 I don't think he was alone, but he was involved. He knows what happened.

Speaker 28 It wasn't catfish. It was Brian.

Speaker 28 Brian Otten.

Speaker 1 So I circled back to Brian Otten with my fake Facebook. He seemed to talk about Crystal in the past tense.
He talked about violence, and in the end, he all but admitted what happened.

Speaker 1 The next morning, I got a message. A message that changed everything forever.

Speaker 6 Hey Payne, my name is Lance.

Speaker 6 Brian was using my phone to message people and it still logged in.

Speaker 6 I'm so sorry to deliver this news.

Speaker 6 He passed away yesterday.

Speaker 6 We won't know for sure until the coroner tells me, but it looked like he got sick from alcohol and developed a lung infection.

Speaker 6 And maybe he couldn't breathe. Then he tried to self-medicate with some heroin.
He choked on an orange, probably from passing out, being so mellow and relaxed.

Speaker 6 But Brian is dead. I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 But none of it mattered, because Brian Otten was never arrested for Crystal's murder. And now, Brian Otten is dead.

Speaker 1 Not only that, but Cathys John is dead too.

Speaker 1 Brian is dead. Cathys is dead.
Crystal is still gone.

Speaker 1 But the people who helped cover it up, the people who saw what happened, the people who participated, they're still out there. And they're probably listening to this right now.

Speaker 1 We have a pretty good idea of what happened that night. And we know that there was at least a dozen people who know what happened too.

Speaker 1 And that's what I've spent the last four years talking to the CBI about. Because here's the thing.

Speaker 1 Dead men can't talk, but the people who were there, the ones who kept this secret for all these years, they can.

Speaker 1 And I'm willing to bet, when the pressure is on, one of them will. This case isn't closed, it's actually wide open.

Speaker 1 Come back next week for another installment of Crystal's story and get an inside look of our years-long relationship with the CBI.

Speaker 1 The truth is, I have been talking to them the whole time. But about three years ago, a new case agent contacted me.

Speaker 1 And since then, we've met on multiple occasions, giving him key information I I find important in this case, stuff I think might help solve it, and he agreed to let me record all of it.

Speaker 1 Every single investigation we've done leads back to this moment. We're still on track, week by week.
I appreciate your patience, and I truly love all the support you give us. So thank you.

Speaker 1 How many times have you called a podcaster to help figure it out?

Speaker 5 Zero. I have never called the media for anything in any one of my cases.

Speaker 5 I'm not a podcast listener. I did not work on this case.
I'd heard about it, and then I heard other people talking about your podcast. So I'd listened to it.

Speaker 5 Fast forward to last year, this case was assigned to me.

Speaker 5 And I recalled your podcast. I re-listened to it.

Speaker 5 And I thought you had valuable information.

Speaker 5 Sometimes I think that the media is helpful. Sometimes I don't think they are.

Speaker 5 And in this instance, I thought you guys were trying to be very helpful, doing dog searches and reaching out to people and really being very thoughtful in what you were doing.

Speaker 5 Just your overall perspective that you generated through the podcast

Speaker 5 that you cared about Crystal, her family, and you also wanted a resolution. That's what I liked.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for another episode on the disappearance of Crystal Risinger coming out next Friday.

Speaker 1 In the meantime, if you want to see some video and behind-the-scenes clips from all my investigations, go check out my Instagram. It's just at PayneLindsey.

Speaker 1 And remember, every new episode on an old case is all leading back to season four in the Midnight Sun.

Speaker 2 Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is a production of Tunderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Your host is Payne Lindsey.

Speaker 2 The show is written by Payne Lindsay with additional assistance from Mike Rooney. Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay.

Speaker 2 Lead producer is Mike Rooney, along with producers Dylan Harrington and Cooper Skinner. Editing by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner with additional editing by Dylan Harrington.

Speaker 2 Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Additional production by Victoria McKenzie, Alice Kanik Glenn, and Eric Quintana.
Artwork by Rob Sheridan. Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set.

Speaker 2 Mixed and Mastered by Cooper Skinner. Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at UTA, Beck Media and Marketing, and the Nord Group.

Speaker 2 Special thanks to all of the families and community members that spoke to the team. Additional information and resources can be found in our show notes.

Speaker 2 For more podcasts like Up and Vanished, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us at tenderfoot.tv. Thanks for listening.