Kristal Reisinger: Part 1 - Payne Faces Catfish

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Is this being recorded? Yes. I'm done.
Crestone, Colorado. A town unlike any other.
Nestled in the Song de Cristo Mountains, it's a place of raw beauty and powerful energy. With no building codes, no streetlights, it feels like a different world.
The closest policeman when you pick up a phone and dial 911 is in Swatch, a 45-minute drive away. So for the first 45 minutes that you're dealing with some nutcase, you're on your own.
People come to Crestone to find peace, to live off the grid, and to connect to something

larger than themselves. But it's also a place where secrets can hide.
She really, really wanted to succeed at something. Excuse my friends, some fucking piece of shit took that away from her.
For Crystal Reisinger, Preston was supposed to be a sanctuary.

In 2016, she moved the it took that away from her. For Crystal Reisinger, Crestone was supposed to be a sanctuary.

In 2016, she moved there hoping to heal, to align her energy with the earth,

and to build a better future for herself and her young daughter, Akasha.

What's your name, Akasha? I see it right here. Right here near the mic.

My name is Akasha. Crestone right here.
Right here near the mic. My name is Akasha.

Crestone became the last place she was ever seen.

This is the story of Crystal Reisinger.

Her life, her disappearance, and the investigation that uncovered the dark secrets of a town and the people who live there.

The minute you drive into town and buy a soda at the deli, just about everybody knows you're there. And when you ask the first question about Crystal, 10 more people know you're there.
In another hour, 100 people know you're there. They really monitor outsiders.
I got the feeling people didn't like me there asking questions. Crystal was more than just a missing person.
She was a mother, a daughter, and a friend. A deeply spiritual woman with piercing blue eyes and a magnetic personality.
She drew people to her effortlessly. Friends described her as empathetic, intuitive, and full of life.
She could see right through you. But Crystal's life wasn't without struggles.
She had endured trauma, battled addiction, and navigated a series of challenges that many couldn't have survived. Despite it all, she remained a devoted mother to her daughter Akasha.
In 2016, she wanted to start fresh, find peace, and Crestone with its spiritual centers and

reputation for healing seemed like the perfect place.

She thought Crestone was her safe place. It warms my heart that you're even considering this.
I hope we can find Crystal before I die. Crystal was just a wonderful lost soul, so to speak.
But she kept going forward. There is a lot of inconsistencies in the actual last time that she was seen.
For some reason, the 13th is the one that sticks with me. July 13th, 2016.
That's the last time anyone heard from Crystal Reisinger. She made two phone calls that day.
One to Eli, the father of her daughter. And one to her landlord, Ora McDonald.
After that, silence. Crystal's disappearance wasn't reported until July 30th.
Nearly two weeks later, Ora, her landlord, went to check on her apartment and found it exactly as Crystal had left it. Everything was still there.
They were telling me at that point, she was a wild partier and having these parties in her apartment. If she was having such wild parties, the apartment would reflect that.
And it did not in any way, shape, or form reflect that. It looked like she had just stepped out and never came back.
One location kept coming up, the Full Moon Drum Circle, a local gathering that took place on July 18th. Witnesses claimed Crystal had been there, dancing and drumming like everyone else.
But here's where the timeline becomes strange. Crystal was last heard from on July 13th, but the drum circle wasn't until July 18th.

What happened in those missing five days?

Where was Crystal?

And who was she with? These were questions Payne Lindsay and the Up and Vanish team would spend months trying to answer. Crestone is a place of contrasts.
It's home to more than 15 spiritual centers, Buddhist temples, Hindu ashrams, and meditation retreats. You paint such an interesting picture of this town, Crestone.
It's a tale of two worlds. Well, what we found is that it's really a peaceful, meditative place,

and thousands of New Age religious seekers from all over the world have come there.

But, you know, there's a real dark side there.

The drug culture is strong and a very thin police force.

But Crestone also has a darker side.

There's a huge mess seen here.

It's a place where people come to get away,

but some people never escape.

There's just something really, really strange about this whole deal.

They're undermanned and underfunded and I don't know. I want to trust them,

but boy, I tell you,

things are starting to chip away here. Boy, it's easy to get lost up in all this.
I find myself going different directions all the time. Crystal was drawn into that darker side and began associating with people who would later become suspects in her disappearance.
These guys that she was hanging out with, everyone said they were bad news. I think she was in with a bad crowd, and I think she knew it.
I think the people that were in Crystal's life at the very end were dangerous, are dangerous, because they're still out there.

Kind of creepy to live in a community and not know if that perpetrator is one of your neighbors.

One of the most haunting revelations came directly from Crystal.

Just weeks before she disappeared,

she told her landlord, Ora,

that she had been drugged and raped at a party in Crestone. She was planning to report her attackers, but Crystal never got the chance.
Witnesses told us she went to confront one of her attackers, Catfish. One night after we'd met up, I went home.
I have a TV because someone gave me one. I hardly ever watch

it. That night I came home and for some reason I flipped the TV on and it was on channel 12.
And a concert was just starting and it was one that had been recorded here in Denver and it was Nitty Gritty Dirt Band. Well, you have to be old to know who they are, first of all.
And they just stepped up on the stage. Just as I turned the TV on, they start their first song.
And it was a song that probably no one in the world, unless they were as old as me, would have known. Mama said don't go near that river

Don't be hanging round old Catfish John

Come the morning I'd always be there

Walking in his footsteps in the sweet Delta Dawn Mama said, don't go down to the river and stay away from Catfish John. And I'm like, don't go down to the river.
I'm like, there's something going on here. The only other band that ever did that song was the Grateful Dead.

Well, that was her favorite band.

The guy, his name is Catfish John.

That's what they call him.

What the fuck?

You tell me that she didn't tell me to turn that TV on and hear that song.

Catfish John?

What the hell are the chances of that?

A billion to one.

I knew it was something from her. We certainly know who Catfish is.
And I know that Catfish and his friend have been spoken to by detectives. This show is sponsored by Liquid IV.
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Hey, Payne Lindsey here. If you're looking for another investigative show to add to your listening queue, check out Spotlight, Snitch City, the brand new podcast from the Boston Globe's award-winning Spotlight team, which is the same team behind the hit podcast Murder in Boston.
Snitch City brings you inside the secret world of police informants through one small city at the forefront of America's drug war. New Bedford, Massachusetts.
Over the last two decades, the 250-member New Bedford Police Department has been the poster child for informant misconduct. Lies, deception, cover-ups of cover-ups, and in the last few years alone, officers have fabricated tips, carried on sexual relationships with informants, and even coaxed them to lie in court.
Featuring never-before-told cases, Snitch City investigates how officers have exploited the secrecy of the informant system, all to enrich themselves, break laws, protect drug dealers, and attack perceived enemies, all with impunity. Tune in before the whistle is blown.
Follow Spotlight, Snitch City on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. Catfish had a reputation.
People said he locked Crystal in his house and wouldn't let her leave. An anonymous tip sent to the sheriff's department described seeing Catfish on the night of Crystal's disappearance.
He was standing outside his house in the rain, next to his van with a shovel and a human-sized bundle. It was suspicious enough to report, but nothing ever came of it.
Catfish claimed Crystal had come to his house around his birthday, but his account was vague and inconsistent. He said they drank wine, smoked marijuana, and watched movies.
Then he fell asleep and woke up to find her gone. Still, his name came up over and over again.

The Up and Vanish team spent months in Creston, piecing together Crystal's story.

Payne Lindsey tracked down key players, including Catfish. Hello, brother.
Hey, man. Is this John? Yeah.
Hey, this is Payne. Ask who he's recording.
Are you recording this? Yes, I'm recording this. That's smart of you.
Listen, you understand my frustration isn't that I got some kind of agenda against you or something. Like, I don't have that kind of mentality.
What I've got is I lived there for 17 years. Why would I hurt the girl? I barely knew her.
She's a rainbow sister. It's my job to protect her.
Why are you doing this and why is this happening to me? I have a podcast called Up and Vanished and it's about missing persons. Oh, well, how nice of you.
Here's how you know I'm innocent. I have yet to take the time to listen to one word of one podcast.
You see what I'm saying, friend? First of all, there's been no crime. What happened to Christmas? I don't know.
I've told the CBI, the Bureau, and the locals all I can possibly give them and more. Dready Brian, Brian, did admit to doing something, but he could have been saying it to be funny or something like that.
He's a weird kid, but he basically said he confessed and he did it. However, I'm not able to get involved in that, I'm guessing, because that's called a federal investigation.
I would be interfering in it. So, unless you have some kind of, like, large amount of money, I don't know anything.
Fuck no. Why would I be friends with someone after they said something like that? Why are you friends with someone? He said that he'd done something that I would be completely against doing.
Which was which was what look this is my interview of you sir this is not your interview of me respectfully i hear your canvas you're a good camera sir you'd be great going door to door with kirby i do not mean to offend you i am only you're welcome to ask a question i'll answer any question you have listen to me turn your recorder off if you want then that'd'd be my question. But secondly, you're not going to do that.
And third, I had nothing to do with this. Why would I tell you something that I wouldn't tell any of my friends? Why would I do something like this to begin with? what is it and this hasn't even necessarily hopefully nothing's happened she's been missing five times before

and shown up at Disneyland maybe we should check

Disneyland what is it and this hasn't even necessarily hopefully nothing's happened she's been missing five times before and shown up at disneyland maybe we should check disneyland i'm asking you have you been slandering me on live podcast for money no i've never slandered you i've only spoken the facts and the truth i learned about your name because of the police report crystal was at your house around your birthday correct i'm not answering your questions sir. Okay, who's that in the background? Considering you're, again, asking me to interfere with a federal investigation.
I'm working with the family. Her daughter, Rodney, Amy, all these people.
Mikey, they all want to know what happened to Crystal, and you're the last person to see her, as we know. They know me, and they know I didn't do anything.
I have nothing to do with harming her in any way whatsoever. And you need to understand that if we are ever going to talk politely.
On June 28th in 2016 Crystal said that she was raped at your house. Is that true? She did not say this.
Yes she did. Said it to Ara? Said it to Eli? It's not true.
What happened that night? What night? June 28, 2016 went and picked Crystal up from your house in the middle of the night. No, actually, she was scared of him and she left him to come for safety.
Now, I sound like I'm saying some shit, so I'm just going to stop. But that's the truth from me to you.
That's what happened. Why would she make that up? Because that little pink haired freak was...
Why would Crystal make that up? I wasn't even there then. That was the week after my birthday.
No, that's July. It was on June 28th.
Also, you know what, sir? Do you want to cut the check today or do you want to cut this check later?

Because honestly, you're making some shit up and falsely excusing me of it.

I know both of them in for a fact.

They did not tell you that.

You're saying they said things that they did not say.

I recorded people who told me that Crystal said that she was raped at your house on June 28th.

And I did the Roswell incident with the fucking 16 gauge in 1920.

Crystal's disappearance didn't just devastate her family.

It left the entire Crestone community shaken.

For many residents, the thought of living among the people responsible

is haunting. Crystal's daughter Akasha has provided some of the most chilling moments of this case.
Mommy's cold in a cave, she told her family. We need to go find mommy.
Her stepfather Rodney refuses to give up hope.

I'll sell everything I own if it means finding her, he said. This story isn't over.
Crystal's landlord, Ara McDonald, tells the Fox 31 problem solvers she listened to Crystal's cell phone messages, hoping to find clues. There were a few things that were really sketchy.
Crystal's last message was reportedly from a local man with a felony criminal history of assaulting and drugging a victim. Records show Crystal never made a police report but Sowatch County Sheriff Dan Warwick has not ruled out silencing her as a possible motive for foul play.
She was very disturbed, very upset. She told me people had drugged and raped her.
The guys that are directly involved in Crystal's rape have strong ties in a drug market that goes back and forth directly from Crestone to Denver. Crystal had made the decision to do something about it.
She wanted them to be

accountable for their actions and that's when she went missing. I strongly believe she was murdered by these guys.
Crystal Ann Reisinger left the busy city life in search of religious enlightenment, hoping that Crestone, Colorado's spiritual centers would bring her happiness and peace. But this mother of a five-year-old daughter who is described as loving, kind, and generous disappeared without a trace on July 13th, 2016.
Well now, the host of the popular podcast, Up and Vanished, Payne Lindsey, is looking into Crystal's disappearance, hoping to break this cold case open. Payne, thank you for being here.
Thank you for doing what you do. This podcast, Up and Vanished, where are you this right now? We've found the people that we're looking for.
Crystal Reisinger was more than a missing person. She was a mother, a daughter, and a friend.
Her disappearance isn't just a mystery. It's a tragedy.
But it's also a story of resilience, of a family and a team of investigators determined to find the truth. Payne Lindsey and the Up and Vanish team have been working on this case for years, even after the podcast ended.
A new piece of information here is that a witness came forward and said what? This individual came to me and claims to have audio and video evidence of what happened. And there was multiple people there, so they all know about it, and they all got rid of her body.
What did he say happened to the body? I heard that she was burned. Up in Crestone, it's not uncommon for somebody to go up hiking and be overdue coming home or coming back.
After she went missing, her friends were coming around looking for her, and all of them were all saying that she had to be at Catfish's. There were actually people convinced that she was being held there and that she was still there.
It's either Catfish did something or Catfish is connected to people who did something to her, and they're all part of that group. Is he still in town? No, he skipped town around the time when the podcast came out.
And then his house was gutted and they even removed the windows. According to the police, Catfish had gutted his house out and cleaned everything, bleached everything, got rid of all of his computers, and got rid of all kinds of stuff.
We scoured that whole area. In the drum circle, there was a creek with the running water, and we stopped in there, and it sends chills down my spine because Akasha actually said, Mommy is here, and she wants us to find her.
Catfish John, that name is all over this case. The question isn't really whether he had anything to do with her disappearance.
He's already admitted that he is one of the last people to have seen Crystal. He is involved.
He can't talk his way out of that. He's somehow involved.
Somebody's going to find Crystal's remains. And then the police are going to have this case solved.

There's going to be evidence there.

They already have a short list of suspects.

I think she's out there.

After Up and Vanished Season 2 concluded,

Payne and the Up and Vanished team

returned to Crestone once again.

This time, they weren't just there to ask questions.

They brought in a team of search dogs. For days, they combed through Crestone, up and down every trail, through the thick brush, searching for anything that might point to what happened to Crystal Reisinger.
But in the end, nothing was found. Do you have a, like on a map anywhere you can show me? Well, if you go up to where the jump circle is, there's the North Crestone campground.
You go over that bridge. You cross that string left and you can't miss it.
I think she's down in there. Give your kids a summer full of fun and learning.
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We did get a pinpoint of where they think our body is and is next to like a little stream. We've gotten a lot of information thrown at us.
We don't know what's true and what's not true, you know. But I think it's something that we should definitely check out.

Today, we want to search three places of interest.

The first is the Drum Circle area. The second spot is actually on the same road.

This was a tip that was sent to me from a friend of Crystal's named Phoebe.

Okay, great.

So what I can promise you guys is that at the end of this day,

we will know more about this case than we did at the beginning of the day. Okay, it's clear.
Okay. Clear.
So as you saw that he went directly up there, went toward the opening, came out, smelled around there, and then came back down. It's that quick.
So if there was human remains sent in that area, he would have continued working it, and he did none of those. So it's been cleared.
We can now mark it off the list and move on to other areas. Okay.
Good boy. So I think this rock face right here is the tip the guy was talking about.
There's a mine shaft over here. This is the general area.
We've crossed the river, so let's just see what happens. A crew from the popular national podcast Up and Vanished, hunting for new clues as to Reisinger's whereabouts.
They brought a search and rescue cadaver dog to check out the last place Reisinger was seen alive in July of 2016. The dog also checked out a few of the mine shafts Fox 31 problem solvers found accessible.
Anything in that hole, the scent is going to be pulled outside to this area. Crawling through dozens of open shafts, most of which have never been searched by police.
So we'll check over here's it looking back there let me check around the bend chance let's go let's go nothing over there okay i see an opening right here hey guys hey yeah over here! We're coming to you. Looks like it's some type of altar.
It's kind of weird. It is strange.
But nothing from Chance? No. Nothing at all.
This area, the lead that you had, we can mark it off the list now. I still consider this a productive day.
Very productive day. A few years after Up and Vanished season two concluded, Payne arranged an in-person meeting with Catfish John in Raleigh, North Carolina.
Hey man, it's Payne. I'm at Honeycutt Park.
I'm here a little bit early. That's my car I drove in.
Just me. Right now there's no one here.
But I'd love to sit down and talk to you, man. Just me and you.
Come on.

Let me shop.

They agreed to meet at a park.

Payne showed up and waited and waited.

But Catfish never showed up.

So he called him.

What are you doing, John?

Let's go.

I'm going to try calling him.

Hey, dude. I'm already here in the park.
I've got a lot of frustrations. The whole being falsely accused of, like, one of the only worst things I can think of.
People said that Crystal was last seen with you. That's where it all started.
I want your honesty. See what I'm saying? You're not being honest with me.
In his police report, she was last at your house, around your birthday. And you told me that, which is true, but you said she went somewhere else, though, afterwards.
How do you believe she's alive, dude? How can you think she's not? There is so much... Because the evidence doesn't point that way.
There is no evidence that's pointing the other way, except to the fact that she ain't dead. That kind of makes sense to me.
How do you know for sure she's not dead? I'm missing like this. Oh, can't see me.
Am I dead? I mean, what's your evidence that proves she's alive, man? If she is, then why haven't you found her yet? It's like this. I have people telling me to prove my innocence.
No, I'm saying prove she's alive. Let's find her.
This is about Crystal. It's not about you.
Let's find Crystal. Let's find her.
She doesn't want to be found because it's not safe. So she's hiding and doesn't want to be found, but she's alive and she left her daughter? Why would she ever leave her daughter, man? That makes no sense.
Come on, man. You said you would meet with me, man.
I did not say I would meet with you. You always told me that you wanted to meet with me.
You said no more Facebook, no more phone call to meet in person, man-to-man. Um, no.
Come to this bar I met, man. Give me five minutes.
Five minutes? I'll meet you there. After some back and forth, Catfish finally agreed to meet, but at a bar down the street instead.
For his safety, Payne chose a booth on the outdoor patio, a hidden microphone under his shirt, and cameras rolling from a parking lot on the hill above. I don't know this.
And because she was probably too long as her boyfriend, that's my guess, because she probably scared her. She's a creepy-ass kid.
Is there any chance that someone shot her inside your house and it wasn't you? No, absolutely not. It wasn't you? No, absolutely not.
That's what I'm saying. It's been not any time during which I lived there, or I never know.
How do you think I can find her? Is she to be found at all? I hope she's alive and well.

How can you believe that Brian killed her

and at the same time also believe she's alive?

You have to pick one.

Don't you have any home you grew up with?

You don't thought about it no more?

Yeah.

You don't want to see him in the cage right now.

So are you protecting him?

If you had this information and you were so concerned

about what people were thinking about you,

why not put this out there?

I did.

You didn't? What did Brian's message say again? Did he say that he shot her? I told you, the CBI said you could put it out. They told me that.
Well, they didn't. Can you call him right now and ask him? Joseph Cahill.
Absolutely.

My goal is to make me angry and do a good job.

Hey, what's up, man?

This is Joseph.

Hey, this is Payne.

Your catfish is at the table with me.

He wanted me to call you for a second. Yep, I'm in North Carolina.
We're just here at a pub talking. And we were discussing the Facebook message that Ryan sent to John.
And you told me that he could release it. And he said that you said otherwise.
I didn't say he said. I didn't say he said.
I've been advised. So, I mean, it's not my call, but can he release it? Absolutely.
If you want to release it, you certainly have my permission to do that. Hey, Captain, this is trying to help clear things up, man.
Just put the Facebook message out. I gave it to the gentleman we're speaking with.
He can't release it. Sure he could.
The thing is, it's not going to be usable.

You said the CBI wouldn't let you do this,

and now they're saying that they will let you do this,

and now you're saying you still don't want to do it.

You're changing my words, and that's when you

got me all upset again, because you got this thing

you think you're going to out psychological

at me or something.

I just called you a bluff, dude.

That's literally all that happened.

Yes.

You said the CBI said that you couldn't release this,

and I just called Joseph right now,

and he's on the phone, speakerphone here How do we know that how do you not know that I ain't seen a lot of my friends in six months and I'll assume they're dead Well Joseph I think we're we're good here at the moment, but if we need to call you back, we will, okay? You guys take care, all right? All right, see you, man. Thank you.
So, I mean, you said you can release it. I don't have confirmation that was Joseph.
Are you kidding me, man? Do you not recognize his voice? Nope. Do you know that I'm actually trying to help? Do you know that, dude? Like, for real? I mean, why would I keep doing it? I might believe you, but I also could just reach a bar.
I'm saying you're good. Don't say that to me, bro.
Don't put your hand in my face again, bro. Put my hand in your face? Get the out of my bar.
At one point, Catfish leaned in, his voice low and threatening. It's hard to make out exactly what he said, but he made one thing clear.
If he wanted to, he could reach across the table and strangle Payne with his own hands. From there, things escalated fast.
Tell the truth, John. Just tell the truth.
You'll probably feel better. Tick tock.
Hey John, if you threaten my life again, your ass is going to jail. You understand that? Is it a joke? Not to me, it's not.
Don't you come over here, bro. I said if you threaten my life again.
I never did. You did.
How so? You told me just then that you wanted to kill me. You also pretended to swing at me.
F*** off, dude. Payne's encounter with Catfish John went about as well as anyone could have expected.
Then, years later, an unexpected email arrived from the CBI. Payne, please call me regarding your work on this case.
I would like to discuss it with you. Also, retired CBI agent Joe Cahill sends his regards.
Looking forward to speaking with you. Kevin, Colorado Bureau of Investigation, Cold Case Homicide Unit.
Hey man, it's Payne. Hey Payne, how are you? My good buddy Joe, kind of the one who turned me on to call on you, so.
Okay.

I've recently been reassigned to a cold case homicide unit that CBI started in July.

At some point, maybe we could sit down and just discuss the case.

Your interviews with Catfish are fascinating, to say the least.

Calling the Colorado Bureau of Investigation Identification Unit.

Our building is on the northeast corner of Kipling Street.

Press 0 at any time.

Behind the scenes, they've been collaborating with the Colorado Bureau of Investigation's Cold Case Unit,

pushing for answers and justice.

We'll have major updates to share. Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey.
Your host is Payne Lindsay. The show is written by Payne Lindsay with additional assistance from Mike Rooney.
Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay. Lead producer is Mike Rooney along with producers Dylan Harrington and Cooper Skinner.
Editing by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner, with additional editing by Dylan Harrington. Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan.
Additional production by Victoria McKenzie, Alice Kanik-Glen, and Eric Quintana. Artwork by Rob Sheridan.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Mix and Mastered by Cooper Skinner.
Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at UTA,

Beck Media and Marketing, and the Nord Group.

Special thanks to all of the families and community members that spoke to the team.

Additional information and resources can be found in our show notes.

For more podcasts like Up and Vanished,

search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app,

or visit us at tenderfoot.tv.

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Well, I just found out that my dad lived a secret life as a hitman for the chicago mafia for all these years it doesn't make any sense he was a firefighter paramedic how the hell can he be a hitman i need answers so i am currently on a plane back to Chicago to interview everybody.

Anybody that knows anything about this.

I'm in shock. This is absolutely insane.

I just don't understand.

I need to figure this out.

The shocking new true crime series, Crook County, from Tenderfoot TV and iHeart Podcasts is available now.