Kristal Reisinger: Part 1 - Payne Faces Catfish

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Speaker 4 It's one of Britain's most notorious crimes. The killing of a wealthy family at Whitehouse Farm.
But I got a tip that the story of this famous case might be all wrong.

Speaker 7 I know there's going to be a twist, willn't they? A massive twist.

Speaker 8 At every level of the criminal justice system, there's been a cover-up in this case.

Speaker 4 I'm Heidi Blake. Blood Relatives is a new series from In the Dark and the New Yorker.
Find it now in the In the Dark podcast feed.

Speaker 2 Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is released every Thursday and brought to you absolutely free.

Speaker 2 But for ad-free listening and exclusive bonuses, subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus at tenderfootplus.com or on Apple Podcasts.

Speaker 2 Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is intended for mature audiences and may include topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence, rape, and murder.

Speaker 2 The names of survivors have been changed for anonymity purposes. Testimony shared by guests of the show is their own and does not reflect the views of Tenderfoot TV or Odyssey.

Speaker 2 Thank you so much for listening.

Speaker 9 Is this being recorded? Yes. I'm done.

Speaker 10 Creststone, Colorado. A town unlike any other.
Nestled in the Sang de Cristo Mountains, it's a place of raw beauty and powerful energy.

Speaker 10 With no building codes, no streetlights, it feels like a different world.

Speaker 13 The closest policeman when you pick up a phone and dial 911 is in Sawat, a 45-minute drive away.

Speaker 13 So for the first 45 minutes that you're dealing with some nut case, You're on your own.

Speaker 10 People come to Creststone to find peace, to live off the grid, and to connect to something larger than themselves. But it's also a place where secrets can hide.

Speaker 15 She really, really wanted to succeed at something.

Speaker 16 Excuse my friends. Some fucking piece of shit took that away from her.

Speaker 10 For Crystal Reisinger, Creststone was supposed to be a sanctuary.

Speaker 10 In 2016, she moved there hoping to heal, to align her energy with the earth, and to build a better future for for herself and her young daughter, Akasha.

Speaker 18 And what's your name, Akasha?

Speaker 1 Say it right here, right here near the mic.

Speaker 6 My name is Akasha.

Speaker 10 Crestone became the last place she was ever seen.

Speaker 10 This is the story of Crystal Reisinger, her life, her disappearance, and the investigation that uncovered the dark secrets of a town and the people who live there.

Speaker 19 The minute you drive into town and and buy a soda at the deli, just about everybody knows you're there. And when you ask the first question about Crystal, 10 more people know you're there.

Speaker 20 In another hour, 100 people know you're there.

Speaker 19 They really monitor outsiders.

Speaker 20 I've got the feeling people didn't like me there asking questions.

Speaker 10 Crystal was more than just a missing person. She was a mother, a daughter, and a friend.
A deeply spiritual woman with piercing blue eyes and a magnetic personality.

Speaker 11 She drew people to her effortlessly.

Speaker 10 Friends described her as empathetic, intuitive, and full of life.

Speaker 11 She could see right through you.

Speaker 10 But Crystal's life wasn't without struggles. She had endured trauma, battled addiction, and navigated a series of challenges that many couldn't have survived.

Speaker 10 Despite it all, she remained a devoted mother to her daughter, Akasha.

Speaker 10 In 2016, she wanted to start fresh, find peace, and Crestone, with its spiritual centers and reputation for healing, seemed like the perfect place.

Speaker 10 She thought Crestone was her safe place.

Speaker 15 It warms my heart that you're even considering this. I hope we can find Crystal before I die.
Crystal was just a wonderful, lost soul, so to speak.

Speaker 15 But she kept going forward.

Speaker 17 There is a lot of inconsistencies in the actual last time that she was seen.

Speaker 17 For some reason, the 13th is the one that sticks with me.

Speaker 10 July 13th, 2016. That's the last time anyone heard from Crystal Reisinger.
She made two phone calls that day, one to Eli, the father of her daughter, and one to her landlord, Aura MacDonald.

Speaker 10 After that, silence.

Speaker 10 Crystal's disappearance wasn't reported until July 30th. Nearly two weeks later, Aura, her landlord, went to check on her apartment and found it exactly as Crystal had left it.

Speaker 10 Everything was still there.

Speaker 17 They were telling me at that point she was a wild partier and having these parties in her apartment. If she was having such wild parties, the apartment would reflect that.

Speaker 17 And it did not in any way, shape, or form reflect it.

Speaker 10 It looked like she had just stepped out and never came back.

Speaker 10 One location kept coming up, the Full Moon Drum Circle, a local gathering that took place on July 18th. Witnesses claimed Crystal had been there, dancing and drumming like everyone else.

Speaker 10 But here's where the timeline becomes strange.

Speaker 10 Crystal was last heard from on July 13th, but the drum circle wasn't until July 18th. What happened in those missing five days?

Speaker 10 Where was Crystal?

Speaker 11 And who was she with?

Speaker 10 These were questions Payne Lindsay and the Up and Vanished team would spend months trying to answer.

Speaker 10 Creststone is a place of contrasts. It's home to more than 15 spiritual centers, Buddhist temples, Hindu ashrams, and meditation retreats.

Speaker 18 You paint such an interesting picture of this town, Crestone. It's a tale of two worlds.

Speaker 19 Well, what we found is that it's really a peaceful, meditative place, and thousands of New Age religious seekers from all over the world have come there. But, you know, there's a real dark side there.

Speaker 19 The drug culture is strong, and a very thin police force.

Speaker 10 But Crestone also has a darker side. There's a huge mess scene here.
It's a place where people come to get away, but some people never escape.

Speaker 6 There's just something

Speaker 15 really, really strange about this whole deal.

Speaker 15 They're undermanned and underfunded and

Speaker 15 I don't know.

Speaker 15 I want to trust them, but boy, I tell you,

Speaker 15 things are starting to chip away here.

Speaker 15 Boy, it's easy to get lost up in all this.

Speaker 15 I find myself going different directions all the time.

Speaker 10 Crystal was drawn into that darker side and began associating with people who would later become suspects in her disappearance.

Speaker 21 These guys that she was hanging out with, everyone said they were bad news.

Speaker 17 I think she was in with a bad crowd, and I think she knew it.

Speaker 17 I think the people that were in Crystal's life at the very end were dangerous.

Speaker 5 Are dangerous, because they're still out there.

Speaker 25 Kind of creepy to live in a community and not know if that perpetrator is one of your neighbors.

Speaker 10 One of the most haunting revelations came directly from Crystal.

Speaker 10 Just weeks before she disappeared, she told her landlord Aura that she had been drugged and raped at a party in Crestone.

Speaker 10 She was planning to report her attackers, but Crystal never got the chance. Witnesses told us she went to confront one of her attackers, Catfish.

Speaker 25 One night after we'd met up, I went home.

Speaker 25 I have a TV because someone gave me one. I hardly ever watch it.
That night I came home, and for some reason, I flipped the TV on, and it was on Channel 12.

Speaker 25 And a concert was just starting, and it was one that had been recorded here in Denver, and it was nitty-gritty dirt band. Well, you have to be old to know who they are, first of all.

Speaker 25 And they just stepped up on the stage. Just as I turned the TV on, they start their first song.
And it was a song that probably no one in the world, unless they were as old as me, would have known.

Speaker 25 Mama said, Don't go near that river,

Speaker 25 don't be hanging round old catfish John.

Speaker 25 But come the morning, I'd always

Speaker 25 be there,

Speaker 25 walking in his footsteps in the sweet delta dawn.

Speaker 25 Mama said, Don't go down to the river and stay away from Catfish John.

Speaker 25 And I'm like, don't go down to the river.

Speaker 25 I'm like, there's something going on here. The only other band that ever did that song was The Grateful Dead.
Well, that was her favorite band.

Speaker 25 The guy, his name is Catfish John. That's what they call him.

Speaker 5 What the fuck?

Speaker 25 You tell me that she didn't tell me to turn that TV on and hear that song. Catfish John?

Speaker 25 What the hell are the chances of that?

Speaker 25 A billion to one.

Speaker 25 I knew it was something from her.

Speaker 19 We certainly know Catfish is.

Speaker 19 And I know that Catfish and his friend have been spoken to by detectives.

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Speaker 10 Catfish had a reputation. People said he locked Crystal in his house and wouldn't let her leave.

Speaker 10 An anonymous tip sent to the Sheriff's Department described seeing Catfish on the night of Crystal's disappearance.

Speaker 10 He was standing outside his house in the rain, next to his van, with a shovel and a human-sized bundle. It was suspicious enough to report, but nothing ever came of it.

Speaker 10 Catfish claimed Crystal had come to his house around his birthday, but his account was vague and inconsistent.

Speaker 11 He said they drank wine, smoked marijuana, and watched movies.

Speaker 10 Then he fell asleep and woke up to find her gone.

Speaker 1 Still,

Speaker 10 his name came up over and over again.

Speaker 10 The Up and Vanished team spent months in Cresto, piecing together Crystal's story.

Speaker 10 Payne Lindsay tracked down key players,

Speaker 10 including Catfish.

Speaker 34 Hello, brother. Hey man, this is John.
Yeah.

Speaker 35 Hey, this is Payne.

Speaker 1 That's who he's recording. Are you recording this?

Speaker 30 Yes, I'm recording this.

Speaker 1 That's smart of you.

Speaker 1 Listen, you understand my frustration isn't that I got some kind of angetta against you or something like that. I don't have that kind of mentality.

Speaker 1 What I've got is I lived there for 17 years.

Speaker 1 Why would I hurt the girl? I barely knew her.

Speaker 1 She's a rainbow sister. It's my job to protect her.

Speaker 1 Why are you doing this and why is this happening to me?

Speaker 34 I have a podcast called Up and Banished, and it's about missing persons.

Speaker 1 Oh, well, Hannah.

Speaker 1 Here's how you know I'm missing.

Speaker 1 I have yet to take the time to listen to one word of one podcast.

Speaker 1 You see what I'm saying, friend?

Speaker 1 First of all, there's been no crime.

Speaker 22 What happened to Chris?

Speaker 1 I don't know. I've told the CBI, the Bureau, and the locals

Speaker 1 all I can possibly give them and more.

Speaker 1 Dreddy Brian, Brian

Speaker 1 did admit to doing something, but he could have been saying it to be funny or something like that. He's a weird kid, but he basically said he confessed and he did it.

Speaker 1 However, I'm not able to get involved in that, I'm guessing, because that's called a federal investigation. I would be interfering in.
So, unless you have some kind of like large amount of money.

Speaker 27 I don't remember Brian?

Speaker 1 Fuck no. Why would I be friends with someone after they said something like that?

Speaker 33 Why aren't you friends with someone?

Speaker 1 He said that he'd done something that I would be completely against doing. Which was what?

Speaker 1 Look, this is my interview of you, sir. This is not your interview of me respectfully.
I hear your canvas. You're a good camera, sir.
You'd be great going door to door with Kirby.

Speaker 1 I do not mean to offend you. I am only saying.

Speaker 22 You're welcome to ask me questions.

Speaker 27 I'll answer any question you have.

Speaker 1 Listen to me. Turn your recorder off if you want, then.
That'd be my question. But secondly,

Speaker 1 you're not going to do that. And third, I had nothing to do with this.
Why would I tell you something that I wouldn't tell any of my friends? Why would I do something like this to begin with?

Speaker 1 What is it? And this hasn't even necessarily, hopefully nothing's happened. She's been missing five times before and shown up at Disneyland.
Maybe we should check Disneyland.

Speaker 1 I'm asking you, have you been slandering me on live podcasts for money?

Speaker 30 No, I've never slandered you.

Speaker 34 I've only spoken the facts and the truth.

Speaker 30 I learned about your name because of the police report. Crystal was at your house around your birthday, correct?

Speaker 1 I'm not answering your questions like that, sir.

Speaker 27 Okay, who's that in the background?

Speaker 1 Considering you're again asking me to interfere with

Speaker 1 a federal investigation.

Speaker 34 I'm working with the family.

Speaker 30 Her daughter, Rodney, Amy, all these people, Mikey.

Speaker 34 They all want to know what happened to Crystal, and you're the last person to see her

Speaker 37 as we know.

Speaker 1 anything. I have nothing

Speaker 1 to do with harming her in any way whatsoever.

Speaker 1 And you need to understand that if we are ever going to talk politely on June 28th, 2016, Crystal said that she was raped at your house.

Speaker 30 Is that true?

Speaker 1 She did not say this.

Speaker 27 Yes, she did.

Speaker 22 Said it to Aura, said it to Eli.

Speaker 1 It's not true.

Speaker 30 What happened that night?

Speaker 1 What night?

Speaker 34 June 28th, 2016.

Speaker 30 Went and picked Crystal up from your house in the middle of the night.

Speaker 1 No, actually,

Speaker 1 she was scared of him and she left him to come for safety. Now, I sound like I'm saying some shit here, so I'm just going to stop.
But that's the truth from me to you.

Speaker 27 That's what happened.

Speaker 34 Why would she make that up?

Speaker 1 Because that little pink-haired freak was...

Speaker 30 Why would Crystal make that up?

Speaker 1 I wasn't even there then. That was the week after my birthday.

Speaker 34 No, actually, why would she make that shit up?

Speaker 1 Also, you know what, sir? Do you want to cut the check check today, or do you want to cut this check later? Because honestly, you're making some shit up and falsely accusing me of it.

Speaker 1 I know both of them, and for a fact, they did not tell you that. You're saying they said things that they did not say.

Speaker 34 I recorded people who told me that Crystal said that she was raped at your house on June 28th.

Speaker 1 And I did the Roswell incident with the fucking 16 gage in 1920.

Speaker 10 Crystal's disappearance didn't just devastate her family. It left the entire Creststone community shaken.
For many residents, the thought of living among the people responsible is haunting.

Speaker 10 Crystal's daughter Akasha has provided some of the most chilling moments of this case.

Speaker 10 Mommy's cold in a cave, she told her family.

Speaker 10 We need to go find Mommy.

Speaker 10 Her stepfather, Rodney, refuses to give up hope.

Speaker 10 I'll sell everything I own if it means finding her, he said.

Speaker 10 This story isn't over.

Speaker 7 Crystal's landlord, Ara McDonald, tells the Fox 31 problem solvers she listened to Crystal's cell phone messages, hoping to find clues.

Speaker 39 There were a few things that were really sketchy.

Speaker 7 Crystal's last message was reportedly from a local man with a felony criminal history of assaulting and drugging a victim.

Speaker 7 Records show Crystal never made a police report, but Sawatch County Sheriff Dan Warwick has not ruled out silencing her as a possible motive for foul play.

Speaker 12 She was very disturbed, very upset. She told me people had drugged and raped her.

Speaker 12 The guys that are directly involved in Crystal's rape have strong ties in a drug market that goes back and forth directly from Creststone to Denver.

Speaker 12 Crystal had made the decision to do something about it. She wanted them to be accountable for their actions and that's when she went missing.
I strongly believe she was murdered by these guys.

Speaker 9 Crystal Ann Reisinger left the busy city life in search of religious enlightenment, hoping that Crestone, Colorado spiritual centers would bring her happiness and peace.

Speaker 9 But this mother of a five-year-old daughter, who is described as loving, kind, and generous, disappeared without a trace on July 13th, 2016.

Speaker 9 Well, now, the host of the popular podcast, Up and Vanished, Payne Lindsay, is looking into Crystal's disappearance, hoping to break this cold case open. Payne, thank you for being here.

Speaker 9 Thank you for doing what you do.

Speaker 9 This podcast, Up and Vanished, where are you on this right now?

Speaker 28 We found the people that we're looking for.

Speaker 10 Crystal Reisinger was more than a missing person. She was a mother, a daughter, and a friend.
Her disappearance isn't just a mystery. It's a tragedy.
But it's also a story of resilience.

Speaker 10 of a family and a team of investigators determined to find the truth. Payne Lindsay and the Up and Vanished team have been working on this case for years, even after the podcast ended.

Speaker 9 A new piece of information here is that a witness came forward and said what?

Speaker 28 This individual came to me and claims to have audio and video evidence of what happened and there was multiple people there, so they all knew about it and they all got rid of her body.

Speaker 9 What did he say happened to the body?

Speaker 28 I heard that she was burned.

Speaker 40 Up in Crestone, it's not uncommon for somebody to go up hiking and be overdue coming home or coming back.

Speaker 39 After she went missing, her friends were coming around looking for her, and all of them were all saying that she had to be at Catfish's.

Speaker 39 There were actually people convinced that she was being held there and that she was still there.

Speaker 39 It's either Catfish did something or Catfish is connected to people who did something to her and they're all part of that group.

Speaker 28 Is he still in town?

Speaker 39 No, No, he skipped town around the time when the podcast came out. And then his house was gutted, and they even removed the windows.

Speaker 12 According to the police, Catfish had gutted his house out and cleaned everything,

Speaker 12 bleached everything, got rid of all of his computers, and got rid of all kinds of stuff.

Speaker 23 We scoured that whole area in the drum circle.

Speaker 21 There was a creek with the running water, and we stopped in there,

Speaker 21 and it sends chills down my spine because Akasha actually said,

Speaker 21 mommy is here,

Speaker 21 and

Speaker 21 she wants us to find her.

Speaker 10 Catfish John.

Speaker 28 That name is all over this case.

Speaker 33 The question isn't really whether he had anything to do with her disappearance.

Speaker 21 He's already admitted that he is one of the last people to have seen seen Crystal.

Speaker 1 He is involved.

Speaker 42 He can't talk his way out of that.

Speaker 28 He's somehow involved.

Speaker 21 Somebody's going to find Crystal's remains, and then the police are going to have this case solved.

Speaker 24 There's going to be evidence there.

Speaker 42 They already have a short list of suspects. I think she's out there.

Speaker 10 After Up and Vanished Season 2 concluded, Payne and the Up and Vanished team returned to Creststone once again.

Speaker 33 This time, they weren't just there to ask questions.

Speaker 10 They brought in a team of search dogs.

Speaker 10 For days, they combed through Creststone, up and down every trail, through the thick brush, searching for anything that might point to what happened to Crystal Reisinger.

Speaker 10 But in the end, nothing was found.

Speaker 28 Do you have a, like, on a map here where you could show me?

Speaker 16 Well, if you go up to where the jump circle is, there's the North Creststone campground.

Speaker 24 You go over that bridge,

Speaker 16 you cross that string left, and you can't miss it. I think she's down in there.

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Speaker 43 We did get a pinpoint of where they think her body is and is next to like a little stream. We've gotten a lot of information thrown at us.
We don't know what's true and what's not true, you know.

Speaker 43 But I think it's something that we should definitely check out.

Speaker 28 Today, we want to search three places of interest.

Speaker 28 The first is the drum circle area. The second spot is actually on the same road.
This was a tip that was sent to me from a friend of Crystal's named Phoebe.

Speaker 26 Okay, great. So, what I can promise you guys is that at the end of this day, we will know more about this case than we did at the beginning of the day.

Speaker 33 Okay, it's clear.

Speaker 21 Okay. Clear.

Speaker 26 So as you saw, that he went directly up there, went toward the opening, came out, smell around there, and then came back down. It's that quick.

Speaker 26 So if there was human remains scent in that area, he would have continued working it, and he did none of those. So it's been cleared.
We can now mark it off the list and move to on to other areas.

Speaker 13 Okay.

Speaker 44 Good boy.

Speaker 28 So I think this rock face right here is the tip the guy was talking about. There's a mine shaft over here.
This is the general area. We've crossed the river, so let's just see what happens.

Speaker 7 A crew from the Popular National Podcast up and vanished, hunting for new clues as to Reisinger's whereabouts.

Speaker 7 They brought a search and rescue cadaver dog to check out the last place Reisinger was seen alive in July of 2016.

Speaker 7 The dog also checked out a few of the mine shafts Fox 31 problem solvers found accessible.

Speaker 6 Anything in that hole, the scent is going to be pulled outside to this area.

Speaker 7 Crawling through dozens of open shafts, most of which have never been searched by police.

Speaker 26 So we'll check over here.

Speaker 28 How's it looking back there?

Speaker 26 Let me check around the van.

Speaker 26 Chance, let's go.

Speaker 26 Let's go.

Speaker 26 Nothing over there. Okay.

Speaker 26 I see an opening right here.

Speaker 26 Hey guys!

Speaker 26 Hey!

Speaker 1 Yeah! Come over here!

Speaker 28 We're coming to you!

Speaker 26 Looks like it's some type of alter.

Speaker 28 It's kind of weird.

Speaker 10 It is strange.

Speaker 41 But nothing from chance. No.

Speaker 26 Nothing at all. This area, the lead that you had, we can work it off the list now.

Speaker 26 I still consider this a productive day. A very productive day.

Speaker 10 A few years after Up and Vanished Season 2 concluded, Payne arranged an in-person meeting with Catfish John in Raleigh, North Carolina.

Speaker 28 Hey, man, it's Payne.

Speaker 28 I'm at Honeycutt Park.

Speaker 1 I'm here a little bit early.

Speaker 28 That's my car I drove in.

Speaker 28 Just me.

Speaker 28 Right now, there's no one here. But I'd love to sit down and and talk to you man, just me and you

Speaker 42 Come on let me show

Speaker 10 they agreed to meet at a park payne showed up and waited and waited But catfish never showed up, so he called him

Speaker 28 What are you doing John?

Speaker 1 Let's go

Speaker 28 I'm not trying to call him

Speaker 28 hey dude I'm already here in the park.

Speaker 1 I've got a lot of frustrations. The whole being falsely accused of like one of the only

Speaker 1 worst things I can think of.

Speaker 28 People said that Crystal was last seen with you. That's where it all started.

Speaker 1 I want your honesty. See what I'm saying? You're not being honest with me.

Speaker 28 In his police report, she was last seen at your house or on your birthday. And you told me that, which is true, but you said she went somewhere else, though, afterwards.

Speaker 1 That's not true.

Speaker 28 How do you believe she's alive, dude?

Speaker 1 How can you think she's not?

Speaker 28 There is so many. Because the evidence doesn't point that way.

Speaker 1 There is no evidence to point the other way except for the fact that she ain't dead. That kind of makes sense to me.

Speaker 28 How do you know for sure she's not dead?

Speaker 28 I mean, what's your evidence that proves she's alive, man? If she is, then why haven't you found her yet?

Speaker 1 It's like this. I have people telling me to prove my innocence.

Speaker 28 No, I'm saying prove she's alive. Let's find her.
This is about crystal. It's not about you.
Let's find Crystal.

Speaker 1 She doesn't want to be sound because it's not safe in her or it's a thought.

Speaker 28 So she's hiding and doesn't want to be found, but she's alive and she left her daughter. Why would she ever leave her daughter, man? That makes no sense.
Come on, man.

Speaker 28 You said you would meet with me, man.

Speaker 1 I did not say I would meet with you.

Speaker 28 You always told me that you wanted to meet with me. You said no more Facebook, no more phone call to meet in person, man-to-man.

Speaker 1 Um, go on.

Speaker 1 Come to this bar, I met, man.

Speaker 28 Give me five minutes five minutes I'll meet you there

Speaker 10 After some back and forth Catfish finally agreed to meet but at a bar down the street instead for his safety Hayne chose a booth on the outdoor patio a hidden microphone under his shirt and cameras rolling from a parking lot on the hill above She was at your house

Speaker 28 then she left though, right? Yeah, she left but she left she left with the she left with the guys who slept with was she ever at your house drugged out out to the point where she was unconscious?

Speaker 28 Ever? Like I'm saying, like, like never. Why do you think she told Nathan that she thinks that she was raped at your house?

Speaker 44 First of all, I don't know this. And because she was probably cheap on that support, that's my guess.
She probably scared her. She's a few blessed people.

Speaker 28 Is there any chance that someone shot her inside your house and it wasn't you?

Speaker 28 It wasn't you.

Speaker 1 No, absolutely not.

Speaker 3 That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 44 If they're not in any top 90 minutes I live there or

Speaker 1 I never.

Speaker 28 How do you think I can find her? Is she to be found at all?

Speaker 44 I hope she's alive and well.

Speaker 28 How can you believe that Brian killed her and at the same time also believe she's alive?

Speaker 44 You have to pick one. Don't you have anyone who you grew up with and you don't talk with no more, please?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 28 So are you protecting him?

Speaker 28 If you had this information and you were so concerned about what people were thinking about you,

Speaker 28 why not put this out there? I did. You didn't? What did Brian's message say again? Did he say that he shot her?

Speaker 44 I'm not allowed to talk about this.

Speaker 28 I told you. The CBI said you could put it out.
They told me that. But they told me different.
Well, they didn't. Can you call him right now and ask him?

Speaker 1 Please.

Speaker 28 Joseph K. Hill.
Absolutely.

Speaker 46 The group goal is to make me angry.

Speaker 1 You're doing a good job.

Speaker 28 Hey, what's up, man? This is Joseph. Hey, this is Paint.
Your cat finished at the table with me. He wanted me to call you for a second.
Yep, I'm in North Carolina. We're just here at a pub talking.

Speaker 28 And we were discussing the Facebook message that Brian sent to

Speaker 28 John. And you told me that he could release it and he said that you said otherwise.
I didn't say he said.

Speaker 46 I didn't say he said.

Speaker 10 I've been advised to do that.

Speaker 28 So I mean it's not my call, but can he release it?

Speaker 1 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 If you want to release it, you certainly have my permission to do that. ACMP is just trying to help clear things up, man.

Speaker 28 Just put the Facebook message out.

Speaker 46 I gave it to the gentleman we're speaking with. He can't release it.
Sure, he could. The thing is, it's not going to be usable.

Speaker 28 You said the CBI wouldn't let you do this, and now they're saying that they will let you do this, and now you're saying you still don't want to do it.

Speaker 44 I'm going to use my words, and that's when you fed up and around and got me all upset again because you got this thing you think you're gonna out psychological up me or something.

Speaker 28 I just called you a bluff, dude.

Speaker 1 That's literally all that happened.

Speaker 28 Yes, you said the CBI said that you couldn't release this, and I just called Joseph right now, and he's on the phone on the speaker phone.

Speaker 1 Here you certainly can release it. He's trying to bring the truth to light, man.
That's all it is, bro.

Speaker 44 Joseph, do you know what happened?

Speaker 46 Why she might be on the run, that kind of thing?

Speaker 1 Crystal on the run? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Crystal's not on the run. Crystal's dead.

Speaker 46 How do we know that?

Speaker 28 How do you not know that?

Speaker 44 I haven't seen a lot of my friends in six months, and I don't assume they're dead.

Speaker 28 Well, Joseph, I think we're good here at the moment, but if we need to call you back, we will, okay?

Speaker 1 You gotta take care of it.

Speaker 28 All right, see you, man. Thank you.

Speaker 1 So, I mean, you said you can release it. I don't have confirmation that was Joseph.

Speaker 28 Are you kidding me, man? Do you not recognize his voice?

Speaker 28 Do you know that I'm actually trying to help? Do you know that, dude? Like, for real? I mean, why would I keep doing it?

Speaker 44 Believe you, but I also have to just f ⁇ your button.

Speaker 28 Don't f ⁇ ing say that to me, bro. Don't put your hand in my face again, bro.

Speaker 44 Put my hand in your face?

Speaker 1 Get the f out of my bar, you pick me.

Speaker 10 At one point, Catfish leaned in, his voice low and threatening.

Speaker 33 It's hard to make out exactly what he said, but he made one thing clear: if he wanted to, he could reach across the table and strangle pain with his own hands. From there, things escalated fast.

Speaker 28 Tell the truth, John.

Speaker 28 Just tell the truth.

Speaker 10 You'll probably feel better.

Speaker 1 TikTok.

Speaker 28 Hey, John, if you threaten my life again, your ass is going to fing jail. You understand that? Is it a joke? Not to me, it's not.
Don't you come over here, bro. I said, if you threaten my life again.

Speaker 1 I never did.

Speaker 28 You did. How so? You told me just then that you wanted to kill me.
You also pretended to swing at me.

Speaker 45 Off, dude.

Speaker 10 Payne's encounter with catfish John went about as well as anyone could have expected. Then, years later, an unexpected email arrived from the CBI.

Speaker 10 Payne, please call me regarding your work on this case.

Speaker 33 I would like to discuss it with you.

Speaker 10 Also, retired CBI agent Joe Cahill sends his regards. Looking forward to speaking with you.
Kevin, Colorado Bureau of Investigation, Cold Case Homicide Unit.

Speaker 28 Hey man, it's Payne.

Speaker 14 Hey, hey, Payne, how are you? My good buddy Joe, kind of the one who turned me on to call on you. So

Speaker 14 I've recently been reassigned to a cold case homicide unit that CBI started in July. At some point, maybe we could sit down and just discuss the case.

Speaker 14 Your interviews with Catfish are fascinating, to say the least.

Speaker 45 Calling the Colorado Bureau of Investigation Identification Unit. Her building is on the northeast corner of Kipling Street.
Press zero at any any time.

Speaker 10 Behind the scenes, they've been collaborating with the Colorado Bureau of Investigation's cold case unit, pushing for answers and justice.

Speaker 10 We'll have major updates to share.

Speaker 2 Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Your host is Payne Lindsey.

Speaker 2 The show is written by Payne Lindsay with additional assistance from Mike Rooney. Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsey.

Speaker 2 Lead producer is Mike Rooney, along with producers Dylan Harrington and Cooper Skinner. Editing by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner with additional editing by Dylan Harrington.

Speaker 2 Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Additional production by Victoria McKenzie, Alice Kanik Glenn, and Eric Kintana.
Artwork by Rob Sheridan. Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set.

Speaker 2 Mixed and Mastered by Cooper Skinner. Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at UTA, Beck Media and Marketing, and the Nord Group.

Speaker 2 Special thanks to all of the families and community members that spoke to the team. Additional information and resources can be found in our show notes.

Speaker 2 For more podcasts like Up and Vanished, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us at tenderfoot.tv. Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 47 Every story has layers and sometimes the truth hides in plain sight. I'm Josh Dean, host of Chameleon, the podcast about people who transform, deceive, and survive.

Speaker 47 From con artists to unbelievable yet true occurrences, we dive into stories where nothing is ever quite as it seems. Because to understand the world, you sometimes have to change the way you see it.

Speaker 47 Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.