Living with Bipolar Disorder: Cameron Esposito

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Speaker 2 Oh my goodness, Cameron. Okay, pod squad, you know our guest today.
We are here with Cameron Esposito. Cameron Esposito is a stand-up comic, actor, and writer.

Speaker 2 A nationally and internationally touring headliner, Cameron has released three specials, including the culture-shifting rape jokes and three albums, the award-winning same-sex symbol amongst them.

Speaker 2 As an actor, Cameron has been seen on Netflix, Max, Prime Video, Hulu, and many more, as well as in big budget movies and Sundance indies.

Speaker 2 Cameron is the author of the best-selling book, Save Yourself, freaking love that book, about growing up very religious and very very gay, and hosted the long-running podcast, Query. So good.

Speaker 2 Cameron Esposito released their newest stand-up special, Four Pills, about being diagnosed with bipolar disorder at 40 on comedy streaming service Dropout to broad acclaim.

Speaker 2 It was featured in Variety, the LA Times, and People. So despite all of these fancy, fancy things,

Speaker 2 Cameron is also our personal friend.

Speaker 2 Personal friend.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and somebody who wears a sweatshirt. You know what I mean? Just a cash

Speaker 2 crew neck, which is what I do say to people when they say, What can you tell me about Cameron?

Speaker 3 and I say, Well, they wear sweatshirts, yeah, that's right, good, thank you.

Speaker 3 I mean, one of my top credits, yeah, but thank you for reading all that. That's always nice to hear, right? When you're

Speaker 3 also slightly like humiliating, yeah, yeah, that's such an interesting thing because when somebody reads a bio of my life,

Speaker 3 I should be like, Fuck, that's amazing. Look at me, I've done stuff.

Speaker 3 But I'm always like,

Speaker 3 thanks. Yeah, of course.
Yeah, of course. Of course.

Speaker 3 What a nightmare.

Speaker 2 Well, it's also like bios read as how many things did this person have to keep doing to try to feel worthy of their place on this planet?

Speaker 3 Yeah, sure.

Speaker 2 The longer the bio is, the more desperate the god-sized hole is likely inside the person.

Speaker 3 Well, I mean, for me, it's, it's also like about cobbling together a living. Yeah.
You know, because I've done creative work for

Speaker 3 my whole adult life and I've had success with diversifying what I do so that I can, you know, support my family and support myself. And

Speaker 3 I think maybe that that is something that's changed a lot in the last, well, like during my time as an entertainer.

Speaker 3 People kind of used to do one thing, but that's not what's expected, as you both know as best-selling authors and then also podcast hosts and everything else you are. It's a different world.

Speaker 3 For some reason, people think I know how to do a bunch of stuff, but I don't with no training. So that's fine.
I'll do it. Absolutely.
I'll sign that contract and figure it out as I go.

Speaker 3 But that sounds romantic. I think people used to have like, you know, I think they used to go to acting school or whatever.
I think they still do. I think some people still do.

Speaker 2 Do they? I've heard that people go to writing school. I think so.

Speaker 3 They go to writing school. They learn how to write.
Yeah. Yeah, they go to writing school.

Speaker 2 They they go to acting school they go to like directing school yeah or you just have bipolar disorder and you're like i can do anything i want okay speaking of yes we had a funny text exchange the other day where i told you i don't know anything that's going on about your mental problems because my mental problems are such that they cause me to be very narcissistic in dealing with my own mental disorders and keep me sometimes from looking outside.

Speaker 2 So a lot has been going on with you. Here's what we know about this.
And then we want you to tell us everything. Although we did watch your special, which we absolutely loved and we will get to.

Speaker 3 Oh, thank you.

Speaker 2 What I know is you went away to film a movie,

Speaker 2 a TV show. Sorry.
A TV show. Yep.
A very big TV show. What was it called? Everyone loved it.
What was it called?

Speaker 3 It's called Million Million Things. It's a big network drama.
It was on ABC. You can watch it on Hulu now.
Right.

Speaker 2 And you had a big part in this big fancy show. And then you went away.
That's correct. And some shit went down.
And I don't even know what that shit was.

Speaker 2 All I know is that for a while, your partner, who we love, was staying at our home. We were just tending to each other's hearts.

Speaker 2 Fast forward, here we are. So can you tell us your version of what went down and

Speaker 2 explain to us?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, this is sort of what

Speaker 3 for folks who would like to have an experiential

Speaker 3 understanding of a manic episode and what bipolar disorder is like. This is what the special is about.
And it's also something that happened in my real life.

Speaker 3 So about three years ago, so I had, I did get this job, got this big job like four and a half years ago or four years ago or something. And

Speaker 3 it was very exciting. I was hired to not just be on a network drama, which is outside of my training and perceived skill set,

Speaker 3 but also the character was meant to be like an attractive sort of

Speaker 3 sought out person. And you know, I had, I've been on TV a bunch and there's like a comedic, like the person that's like walking through the background being like,

Speaker 3 or, you know, doing stand-up or being on a panel. So I was expected to be funny.
And I was expected to be a little funny in this show.

Speaker 3 Like there were funny things written for me, but I was also expected to be able to, you know, be emotionally present, cry, and then hold space of being somebody that, you know, ABC is owned by Disney.

Speaker 3 So it's like Mickey Mouse is like, you're attractive enough to be a queer person with short hair on television i found that very overwhelming because that's not necessarily feedback that i'd gotten previously in my life and also this was during the pandemic and i was living in vancouver so there were the borders were very difficult to pass and i just am giving this whole background because i was really isolated and

Speaker 3 noticed this increase in energy and ideas

Speaker 3 and risky behaviors that persisted for like 18 months, which is an extended time to be in a state like that.

Speaker 3 And yeah, my wife was staying with you, Katie, who we love, eventually, because

Speaker 3 I think it just got really scary. You know, it really got scary.

Speaker 3 And after trying to talk to me about what was going on, she eventually realized that she needed to just take care of herself, which I so respect. What awesome behavior.

Speaker 3 And also it gave me the motivation to take myself to rehab.

Speaker 3 And so, you know, we can kind of pick up the story there, but rehab is the best. And I got diagnosed with bipolar disorder shortly afterward.
And

Speaker 3 I'm now medicated and have been living with this new understanding and also this like really positive shift that also makes my job a little more difficult to do.

Speaker 3 That's it.

Speaker 2 Tell us about. the diagnosis.
So

Speaker 2 one thing I love about the special is you can feel it the way that it's filmed, the way that you do it. You can actually feel the goal.

Speaker 3 The goal is achieved, it sounds like. I agree.

Speaker 2 I really think it's achieved.

Speaker 3 I thought it was very cool. Very cool.
Feel the mania. You can feel it.
And then feel the mania. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So the back and forth.

Speaker 3 I was like,

Speaker 2 Yeah. But can you explain to us what that feels like? Like, my dream for this episode would be that somebody would be like, oh, yeah, like feel

Speaker 2 seen in this. So tell us what it feels like when they asked you what the checklist.
How does one know that one might have bipolar?

Speaker 3 There's actually not that much

Speaker 3 that you can read or digest about this experience, at least that I could find. You know, it's like there's like four things, right? And so when I first

Speaker 3 was diagnosed, and this is the special, but like I met with a psychiatrist, got like 100% on the diagnostic test, which was a series of questions. And I was like, okay.

Speaker 3 And we could talk more about what those specific symptoms are. But the thing that I'll say that really stuck out to me was the phrase goes through life as if driven by a motor.

Speaker 3 And when I first read that, I did not understand what that could possibly mean because I've always just been living inside my own brain.

Speaker 3 And, you know, I did know that in my life, people had had a hard time keeping up with me. I didn't think that meant anything.
I think I thought, what is going on with everybody else? Like,

Speaker 3 get on my level.

Speaker 3 But being medicated, I feel that I'm having an experience that's a little bit closer to what might be a normative set of brain chemicals.

Speaker 3 And I'm shocked to understand the difference in energy and thought patterns. And this is just, the goal is not to be cured.

Speaker 3 So, like, it's not, I'm not going to have this massive change, but even just this understanding that people

Speaker 3 can slow down.

Speaker 3 I used to, for my whole life, I would use this phrase, I'm very calmed up.

Speaker 3 Like instead of calmed, I just didn't know how to describe it, which nobody has ever said before, but I'd be like, I'm just very calmed up.

Speaker 3 And I think, you know,

Speaker 3 the thing that the goal with the special, because I think when we talk about mental illness, it's like so vague and there's so much distance.

Speaker 3 And because, you know, I do this job that's words, it's like, it's just a description.

Speaker 3 But the really really cool thing about being able to film it that you're alluding to is that the special sort of starts with some camera angles that we're used to, a bit of something a little far away.

Speaker 3 And then over time, it progresses to these shots that are like up the nose while I'm on stage, which are, you know, meant to be like a little stressful or exciting.

Speaker 3 And then it eventually cuts to me alone wearing the same outfit, but it's all white and the room is all white, and that's intercut with the showroom. And it really is meant to

Speaker 3 show the audience like the stasis that somebody with bipolar disorder might be in,

Speaker 3 and then what it feels like to get very excited and sort of be out of control. And then the other side of that, which you're right, is depressive, but it's also medicated.
Right.

Speaker 3 Because

Speaker 3 what I hope it feels like is

Speaker 3 the performative

Speaker 3 part of myself has dropped out a bit and I'm kind of experiencing life

Speaker 3 with myself,

Speaker 3 which was previously impossible for me to do, actually.

Speaker 2 What does it feel like to be propelled by a motor all the time? What is a day being propelled? Is the motor mania? And how does that manifest in a day? What was it like for you?

Speaker 3 I think sometimes it was mania

Speaker 3 and other times it was just like you can be somewhere on a spectrum between people who have more depressive tendency and people who have a more energetic urmanic tendency and i'm on the more energetic urmanic tendency side of things so i mean what life has looked like for me over the i mean when i first started as a comic the goal is like you basically stay up all night and then get up in the morning and all night you're running around doing like five shows i would i lived in chicago at at the time.

Speaker 3 I would ride my bike everywhere with like a backpack on and two bottles of Pepto-Bismol strapped into the water bottle pockets on either side and like do five shows and then get up in the morning and be a nanny and be really able to be present with kids because again, they're actually full of energy.

Speaker 3 Or right out of college, I had two jobs. one working professionally at a school, one working professionally in comedy.

Speaker 3 And I worked 80 hours a week, like not 80 hours a week on my own, but like in community, you know, at a theater and then at a school, which requires so much energy.

Speaker 3 And then later, as I started to go to bed earlier, it meant getting up at like four or five in the morning and having 97 ideas for, you know, things I could do in my business.

Speaker 3 And then when this like particular episode was really intense, I was going to like two or three hot yoga classes in a row

Speaker 3 just to try to calm up. Yeah, just to try to calm down, right? Just to try to be able to sit still.
That is extreme. I don't know if you've ever done hot yoga, but it's like meant to exhaust you.
Yes.

Speaker 3 You know, and I would do a class that was like yoga-based, and then I would do a class where it's yoga-based and you're doing weights.

Speaker 3 And then I would do a class where it's like yoga-based and you're doing bar stuff. I mean, that's too much.
It's like way too much.

Speaker 3 Yeah, like in the yoga studio, where they're like, so two is probably our limit.

Speaker 3 You know, I think that that's wild.

Speaker 3 when you have different teachers you know and like the when the front desk staff turns over it's kind of like how i used to go to different convenience stores to buy my wine so nobody knew that i was buying the same bottle exactly but i mean even that it's not like i thought this was weird

Speaker 3 or or like i was trying to hide it necessarily i think i was just trying to cope yeah

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 I was also like doing things like smoking weed, like anything that is a

Speaker 3 depressant or anything that de-escalates,

Speaker 3 I was adding, stacking on top of each other and still like had almost no need to sleep. It was

Speaker 3 wild. It's like being stuck on a roller coaster.

Speaker 3 It's like very fun at the beginning. And then like, that's the thing, going through life as if driven by a motor.
I think I felt like a passenger sometimes, but I didn't know that.

Speaker 3 Because I thought this was, this is what we were all doing.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 You know, I don't know. I mean, earlier in your lives and behaviors you've had, did you identify at the time that those behaviors were unusual? Were you able to do that?

Speaker 2 When you said in the special that they gave you a list of symptoms and then they were your personality, that is the experience that I had, even just my recent anorexia diagnosis.

Speaker 2 Like when they sat across from the little Zoom and read the list of symptoms.

Speaker 2 I had a very, very sad destabling moment, not just because I was being being diagnosed with something, but because I thought

Speaker 2 that all of those things were what made me who I was.

Speaker 2 I thought I made up those things, that they were my personality, and to have them just completely pathologized was a very strange experience. I really related to that.

Speaker 2 No, I just thought that was life. Yeah, thanks for telling me that.

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Speaker 2 So you're on a roller coaster being driven by a motor and you're the passenger. That is so helpful to me

Speaker 2 to understand. Visual.

Speaker 2 You talk about this in the special, but like one of the crossovers I see between your and mine is that we both had disorders whose symptoms are often celebrated by the particular culture we're in.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 2 So nobody says to me, you know what, you're just a little too thin, too disciplined. That's not something our culture is going to say until you're dead.
So

Speaker 2 for yours, having a million ideas, like having so much energy, being able to do 80 hours of work is in some ways a capitalistic dream.

Speaker 3 Correct.

Speaker 2 What was the negative feedback? What is it like for somebody to be partnered with a person who's stuck on a roller coaster and not in charge of the movement?

Speaker 2 What were you getting from your family, friends?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, yes, that is a big thing that is true:

Speaker 3 of all the mental illnesses, bipolar disorder is the one where people will take these huge risks.

Speaker 3 They'll become inventors, they'll go to space, they'll become politicians, really successful musicians, because the the identification of risk is

Speaker 3 the lack of identification of risk is a part of it, which is so interesting.

Speaker 3 So people might take these risks where other people are like, I don't know how you could possibly start your own business or have this kind of idea.

Speaker 3 It's just not, you know, like have the same relationship to risk.

Speaker 3 And you're right also to point out the, you know, I totally understand and relate to in terms of eating disorder pathology that this is something people love.

Speaker 3 I mean, like, look at fucking TikTok or whatever.

Speaker 3 Like, if you get trapped in the wrong algorithm, you know, I also had a very active eating disorder in my teens and TikTok knows that, you know, because that's based on like the amount of time that you might pause on a particular video.

Speaker 3 And I've had a couple of times where like my algorithm went very far in the direction of like bodybuilders. And I was like, oh, I am still

Speaker 3 like telling on myself

Speaker 3 to a conglomerate corporation who might be whatever, you know, and that was really interesting to find out. And, you know, to answer your question about friends and family, I think

Speaker 3 that one thing that, you know, my wife Katie and I, you

Speaker 3 saw some of the things that she was experiencing during this time.

Speaker 3 And I think like in terms of fear or worry or hurt, you know, and pain. And I think the big thing

Speaker 3 is that I wasn't there

Speaker 3 for

Speaker 3 18 months of our marriage. I mean, a manic episode, you can forget what happened.

Speaker 3 I mean, there's certainly things I remember, you know, there's certainly things I was present for.

Speaker 3 And just chemically.

Speaker 3 not being present, that's been, I think, the biggest thing to work through in our marriage is that she remembers and lived through some things that I lived through in my body and mind.

Speaker 3 It's not like it was, you know, it was challenging on my end, but she

Speaker 3 was there physically and spiritually in a different way. And maybe that's true for sort of anybody that has a partner that might have like any sort of addictive issue,

Speaker 3 even somebody who's going through extreme grief, you know, something where their experience of life is

Speaker 3 locked into

Speaker 3 a chemical brain-altering experience that, I mean, you mentioned narcissism earlier. It's like just this abject focus on self that I think happens to so many of us.

Speaker 3 And then for the partner, it's like, well, okay, I guess I'm just alone, you know, either temporarily or permanently in this marriage.

Speaker 3 And so, or even just as a, you know, in this relationship, this parental relationship. So how do I cope with that? Do I still want this person in my life? Am I willing to wait around? Am I,

Speaker 3 you know, I think that's, I think that's a huge, huge question. Do you relate to that? I saw you have one of those reactions.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and it makes me feel for all of the people who love

Speaker 2 anybody who struggles with mental health in any way, because there's like the time when it's all a mess and you're all dealing with it like it's a battleground. And then maybe the person recovers

Speaker 2 and the person who was there and witnessed all the mess still walks amongst debris that the other person doesn't even know consciously exists. Totally.

Speaker 2 And that person loves and is so forgiving and so beautiful and knows that that person was, quote, gone. So can't blame the person for it.
And yet that remains and that person holds it alone.

Speaker 3 It's really incredible.

Speaker 2 Everyone I've ever loved, I'm sure, has experienced that.

Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because I've gone through just recently, my brother passed away like a year and a little bit ago, and I've been through recovery.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 a lot of

Speaker 3 my experience

Speaker 3 was so important to have a person in my life,

Speaker 3 like Glennon, going through this last year of witnessing me.

Speaker 3 It's this weird thing that, like, I kind of know that like, I'm not all the way here. Like, I'm partly in heaven.
I'm partly trying to reach a different realm in a way through this grief.

Speaker 3 And so I can imagine when you get back to your house and Katie's, your wife has moved out. And I can imagine you'd be like, okay, I have to go and get help.

Speaker 3 I need this help in a way because she was like your witness to this unfolding in a lot of ways. And I guess...

Speaker 3 What I want to ask is like, at the time, you didn't know bipolar was the thing.

Speaker 3 Maybe it was drugs and alcohol. I don't know exactly what brought you to the rehab.
It's just like you were like, something's not right. That was it.
Okay. I just knew something was not right.

Speaker 3 That's, I could like feel it in my chest. I felt like I was going to have a heart attack.

Speaker 3 And that's what it was. I was like, this cannot be right.
Like, this is not, this cannot be right. But I also didn't think I needed to go to the hospital.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And you know what I want to add to what you just said also

Speaker 3 is that

Speaker 3 life is lonely and life is also powerful in this experience that we have, I think, in any relationship where

Speaker 3 I had this wild experience over the summer that I think you two are a little bit aware of because I think you texted with Katie during this time, but I got super sick.

Speaker 3 I got like this wild foot infection that turned into a whole body infection and like almost killed me. And when I was the sickest, I had a contagious infection.

Speaker 3 So I had to be downstairs in our house alone. And Katie and my mom, who was living with us at the time, could come down with like gloves and masks on, and they couldn't really stay down there.

Speaker 3 And I had that, it was like an incredibly freeing spiritual experience, actually, because the witness to this was me.

Speaker 3 Like I was the one who was there with me. And I think I thought that like,

Speaker 3 you know, it's this thing of like, we come into this world and we leave this world alone. I think that that, that loneliness, it's like a huge fear of mine, right? Abandon, alone.

Speaker 3 And, you know, I think what I realized is that I am such good company and such a strong witness to my own experience.

Speaker 3 And I think that's also true for anybody who loves, I guess what I'm trying to say, Abby, is like, your brother dies, you are the, like Glennon is a witness and also you are the witness, like the sole witness, right?

Speaker 3 Because we can't totally share that experience with someone else. And the same thing for, you know, eating disorder recovery.
Someone can watch that and be there with you.

Speaker 3 And that growth can come in a relationship. And also, like, at the end of the day, going to bed, it's like this very powerful experience of, wow, I was there with me.

Speaker 3 Like there's, I didn't know, I hadn't really tracked my life that way. And it was like life-changing, actually, to be like, oh, wow, that is so cool because I get to carry that with me.
God.

Speaker 2 It's that moment in the special where you're like, people have always asked you, how the hell?

Speaker 2 you stand up on the stage in front of all of these people and you're like how the hell do you sit in a room by yourself?

Speaker 3 Totally. Yeah, I did not have access to that.
I did not have access to that. I mean, literally, look at the job I chose.
Like, kind of like you said earlier, I just chose it.

Speaker 3 I chose a job where, I mean, and I look at the time in my life when I really started doing stand-up professionally, because I had done improv. And improv is like, I'm a goofy penguin.

Speaker 3 You know, like, it can be really fun, but you're not like having

Speaker 3 it's a different thing. When I started doing stand-up, I had just come out.

Speaker 3 My family was freaking out because I was raised so Catholic, you know, they were really worried I was going to hell, an actual place with fire, you know,

Speaker 3 and I had told like one friend that went terribly.

Speaker 3 And so then like the next thing I decided to do was like, okay, well, what if I just tell hundreds and thousands or thousands of people at the same time?

Speaker 3 Like that like somebody's going to be into this, you know, and I, I also was so afraid of that interpersonal rejection that I buffered myself.

Speaker 3 You know, if you're on stage, you always get to win, you kick people out.

Speaker 3 You're always funnier. You're literally amplified.
Everybody else is supposed to shut up. You know, it's like the best plan if you're like, don't reject me, you know? And

Speaker 3 so I love that I chose this job that like saved my life.

Speaker 3 And now medicated and older and, you know, in this beautiful marriage with supportive friends, I get to do the opposite, which is, yeah, like talk to people. without microphones.

Speaker 3 I mean, we're talking to microphones now, but if we weren't, that'd be okay too.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 2 How is that going? It was so, my favorite part of the whole special is you discussing

Speaker 3 how

Speaker 2 you chose to be medicated,

Speaker 2 which has meant that you are present with yourself, but you believe is making you not as good of a comic or harder for you. Tell us all about that.
It's fascinating.

Speaker 3 Yeah, thanks for asking about that. It's interesting.
I feel like I'm just a different comic. And I I would be interested to hear sort of your experience with this as well, both of you.

Speaker 3 Well, I mean, for me, the medication that I take, it causes brain fog and cognitive delays. And

Speaker 3 that is weird. It's a weird experience.
I'll be talking about something. I'll be mid-sentence.

Speaker 3 I have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about, which is actually a difficult symptom to have if you're a stand-up comic. Fair.

Speaker 3 And also, I have found that audiences are okay with it. Like, I will have notes.
I will just openly ask, what was I talking about?

Speaker 3 And then people will want to jump in and, and it's kind of a fun thing. It's like a mad lib.
We're building it together because I know what to say next.

Speaker 3 I know how to interact with the audience, but I can't do it by myself the same way that I used to. And I even have had the experience of like sitting on a stool now as opposed to pacing the stage.

Speaker 3 Pulling into it right away. People like this transformation.
I suppose maybe,

Speaker 3 like any artist, I could just treat it as evolution.

Speaker 3 But it is fucking hard when something you've been doing for 20 years is just now

Speaker 3 different.

Speaker 3 I mean, did in terms of the podcast, I mean, I guess maybe there's two moments, transitioning from being a writer to a podcaster.

Speaker 3 You know, I don't know how that felt to you, or transitioning from experiencing life one way, getting this new diagnosis, and then you're talking about your life in a different way.

Speaker 2 Oh, I relate almost precisely to what you're saying, because for me, it's been a little bit different in that mine has been from going to being completely dissociated all the time.

Speaker 2 That's how I survived public life in any way. I was never present, ever.
I memorized things.

Speaker 2 I mean, when we first met, Abby walked into the little gym we had where I was, I had written down all the answers to everything anyone would ever ask ask me on the untamed year-long every TV show, every whatever tour.

Speaker 2 I wrote it all down. Then I read every single answer.
Now, please understand also the ums and the moments where I would pretend I was in the moment,

Speaker 2 okay?

Speaker 2 Memorize them. Oh, then I would read them into a phone.

Speaker 2 And then I would get on the elliptical for hours with

Speaker 2 my own voice in my head memorizing these things over and over again. So, by the time I had to hit a stage or a TV show or anything, I was not there.

Speaker 2 I sent a talking doll on, and I would pull the string, and she would say the things. And so, that is how I protected myself.

Speaker 2 I was, I'm an incredibly sensitive, very introverted person who had to become a hologram of herself. And so, I just became a hologram.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 2 So, what also helped me with that was all my medication. So, I have had the absolute reverse experience of you.
I have had to un-medicate myself

Speaker 2 because of my

Speaker 2 unmedicated being.

Speaker 2 I cry all the time now.

Speaker 2 I am unable to perform,

Speaker 2 which makes a segment or a minute. I can't do it.
I can't not be embodied, which makes me much less successful at marketing myself. makes me much less to nail a talking point, to nail a thing.

Speaker 2 I can't nail anything anymore.

Speaker 3 I mean, I will beg to differ on that front.

Speaker 2 But I can be human.

Speaker 3 I can be human.

Speaker 2 Like every time I'm watching a movie and I start crying, or I'm in a, I feel like the tin man from Wizard of Oz. I'm like, wow, yeah, I have a heart.

Speaker 3 Oh my God. This is so interesting.

Speaker 3 I mean,

Speaker 3 look at our little sneaky ways. Good job.
Cause I was on tour with you. I saw you take questions.

Speaker 3 So good job. Sneaky.
Thanks. Good job with those ums.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Sneakerooney.

Speaker 3 For me, you know, kind of, as you're saying, it was such an opposite experience.

Speaker 3 Cause I, for me, I think what I've had in my life is like eternal presence on stage because there's so much stimulation from an audience, from lights, from the requirement to speak for an hour and give people their money's worth.

Speaker 3 It's like perfect. It's like a perfect thing.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 there's like some loss there because that's, that's the thing I can't, I can do it in a different way. I can have this presence where I'm being vulnerable, right? But the

Speaker 3 magical chemical presence is limited by my mood stabilizers. And

Speaker 3 yeah, again, it's like, I love a coping mechanism that lands us in the right place and helps us survive until we hopefully heal that a little bit. But like, what a fucking genius move.

Speaker 3 This is why musicians and comics that that have this brain chemistry then put themselves in this position because it's like it feels right it's like the only time it's just like you're like so locked in like actually what i'm saying is do not give me any questions in advance don't literally

Speaker 3 never i mean have never gone on stage with things written down in full sentences not one time I write on stage. So like

Speaker 3 eventually everything's memorized, but I don't start with jokes that I've free written. That's never been true.

Speaker 2 But like, what is that presence? Is that you? That's the thing. That's what I'm trying to get at.

Speaker 2 And what is special is like, I see what you're saying, morphing this idea of like, okay, but like, who is Cameron? Because presence to me

Speaker 2 means, and that's just what it means to me right now, changes all the time.

Speaker 2 But it means I'm just going to decide that however I am in this moment is good enough and that there's no performance tied to it. Right.

Speaker 2 So, what's the difference between stage presence, this magic you're talking about, and like the presence you feel when you're sitting with a good friend and you're not proving anything to anyone and you're not performing?

Speaker 2 And can you not perform and feel alive?

Speaker 3 Sure. I mean, I think something that really helps me is like going to the gym, things like that, in terms of getting some of that locked in.

Speaker 3 I think when I'm with friends, I actually just kind of feel relaxed most often, which is

Speaker 3 weird. I don't really know how to process that experience.

Speaker 3 And so

Speaker 3 I'm like laughing and stuff and like having a good time. And in terms of like making life worth living, I think that,

Speaker 3 you know, it's odd, right? Because I don't think of my brain as separate from me. Like this is, those chemicals are me.
Everybody has chemicals that are them.

Speaker 3 And it's

Speaker 3 this relaxed feeling

Speaker 3 is,

Speaker 3 I think, what life is. It's just that I get access to this other,

Speaker 3 I mean, it's drugs. We all do drugs.
We don't know what we're doing, right?

Speaker 3 When we have like a really amazing meal or like even capsaicin, which is like the active ingredient in hot sauce, is like actually addictive.

Speaker 3 Like it lights up our addiction centers and they're eating more and more hot sauce. Hilarious, right?

Speaker 3 I did not know that. Yeah, it's true.
I'm actually in withdrawal right now. I love hot sauce.
I know, I do too. I'm in withdrawal right now.

Speaker 3 We don't have sriracha and the last two lunches that I've had have been like.

Speaker 2 This is recovery. You're in,

Speaker 3 yeah. It's like I don't know that I need to remove all that from my life, right?

Speaker 3 And the chemical thing of relaxation and downtime is beautiful, it's just that like that hyper-presence thing, I think it's actually also spiritual to be honest.

Speaker 3 Like, all the chemicals, because I say in the special that mania releases in the brain the same chemicals as cocaine.

Speaker 3 So,

Speaker 3 I don't know, like I said, my medication doesn't cure that experience,

Speaker 3 So that will just always be part of my life.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I don't really know what other people are doing. Right.
I don't know.

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Speaker 3 off.

Speaker 3 I want to touch something that you talked about, that there might be a loss of the performer that you used to be. And

Speaker 3 how are you handling that now in the place you're in? I mean, what would you call the place that you're in right now? Because are you in recovery?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, I guess I would just say I'm receiving appropriate and helpful mental health care

Speaker 3 and medicated. You know, I'd say things like that.
I guess, you know, I mean, again, this is a symptom of bipolar disorder, but it is so hard. You know, shifting like that is so hard.

Speaker 3 And I like when things are hard. So

Speaker 3 when I think about

Speaker 3 my life, I must have signed like a contract before my little soul was sent down here because I have been afforded a lot of opportunities for learning. And

Speaker 3 I happen to be open to that. Not always at first, maybe kicking and screaming, but also like, fuck yeah.
I mean, I just, I don't know. I guess I move in that direction and then the next thing unfolds.

Speaker 3 Does that make sense? Yep. That's how we live our life.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 It really is. Yeah.
Kicking and screaming and then like, oh, oh.

Speaker 2 I always think about that. I'm like, I am either in a very remedial group or a very advanced group.

Speaker 3 One or the other is the batch I'm talking about. I don't know.
I signed some sort of contract with the universe. I believe that.
And I love it.

Speaker 3 I wonder what will happen the next time I'm here. It's like, I'll just be like, this time I get a break.
You know what I mean? Like the next time I'm like, I don't want to learn anything.

Speaker 3 I want one job. I want to marry young, you know, like stay with my person forever.
I don't know. Maybe that's what will happen.
But yeah, this time around, I chose like hurdles.

Speaker 3 That's the, that's the track and field specialty that I currently have. So do you still want to keep going hard? Like in different ways.
I just have a brain that wants to learn.

Speaker 3 Again, like this is just like chemically what's happening. So like, for instance, I'm gardening a lot right now and poor Katie is like about to lose her fucking mind.

Speaker 3 She just has to tell me like, we're not allowed to talk about gardening after this time of night because I, I've been like identifying all the plants that are around our house or in our neighborhood.

Speaker 3 And then I plant stuff and then I like stare at it. One of our neighbors doesn't love us so much.

Speaker 3 And I think part of the reason is that they think I'm looking in their house often, but I'm really just looking at their garden.

Speaker 3 And I realized I had to move on. Move along.

Speaker 2 That's the thing about bipolar too, right? It's like having these big interests that soak you up completely. What else? Give Give us another little

Speaker 2 you might be bipolar if risk,

Speaker 3 okay? Sure. So, some of the symptoms I've had that are very funny.
Yeah, so too much confidence. So, do you notice you're way more confident than some of your friends? Huh? I wonder.

Speaker 3 Religious fervor is one. So, are you have you started your own cult?

Speaker 3 Um,

Speaker 3 and then, like, again, business risk: are you

Speaker 3 trying to go to space and also take over the government through your friendship with a president.

Speaker 3 Just something to wonder about. And

Speaker 3 charisma

Speaker 3 is one. You get some feedback about having a lot of charisma.
How much do you sleep? Three hours? Then you get up, you put a headlamp on, you go garden

Speaker 3 again. I think my neighbors are like, What is going on over there?

Speaker 3 Whatever. So, yeah, those are some of the symptoms for me.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 God, what other,

Speaker 3 oh, I mean, another one that is very, very common is hypersexuality, which we don't talk about a lot. And again, is rewarded in this culture.
So that can just kind of mean

Speaker 3 like, are you like presenting yourself in a sexy way more often than most people?

Speaker 2 Do you have

Speaker 3 a high sex drive that

Speaker 3 everybody you're in relationship with

Speaker 3 on things like that.

Speaker 2 If you're going to space and you're taking over the world, your relationship with the president and you also have 24,000 children.

Speaker 2 Oh, fuck!

Speaker 2 I forgot about that detail.

Speaker 3 And by the way, I will just say, I'm not, you know, we don't call somebody a mentor, but this particular person has said that it was said to him that he should get checked out for this thing.

Speaker 3 He said that publicly. So then when he said that, I said, huh?

Speaker 3 Well,

Speaker 3 but there are also so many people that are open about this that, you know, you can like look at the creativity, or at least I can.

Speaker 3 And I really like Chapel Roan is really open about this and, you know, the creativity, but also the like exhaustion that she talks about around public appearance, things like that.

Speaker 3 You know, that hyper-presence can really take a toll.

Speaker 3 I also find that I have like auditory sensitivity. So it's like hard for me to be in like planes are a fucking nightmare for me.
So thank God I chose a job where I have to constantly be on the road.

Speaker 2 Why is it like that weird hum that gets you remember in the special when she said during the movie she has to get up like 12 times to investigate a noise that's like six streets away?

Speaker 3 Also, like, can I tell you, this is the honest truth, and you're not going to believe this, but like, you know, the headphones that they pass out on a plane, right?

Speaker 3 They're like not the headphones people bring. And then people use them for the in-flight entertainment system.
Do you find that you can hear everybody's headphones?

Speaker 3 No. Like I'm talking about, are you ever on a plane and you go, what is somebody watching 20 aisles back from me and you can't stop paying attention to it?

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 3 Because I didn't think. That's great.

Speaker 3 That's terrible.

Speaker 3 So it's like helpful. I take a little extra medication now and wear sunglasses and like a low hat and noise canceling headphones.
And that helps me to be in an environment like that.

Speaker 2 That's incredible, but it speaks to the other thing you're talking about, which is like, it's not, there's something spiritual about it too. I'm not saying that it's real.

Speaker 2 Like this hyper-presence that's connected to everybody else's hyper-presence, this thing more going on.

Speaker 2 You're breathing through the roots and then the other people in their trunks, which you just have to watch the special.

Speaker 3 There's more going on.

Speaker 2 There's something going on. Yeah.

Speaker 2 But it's real.

Speaker 3 I absolutely think that that is true. Well, you know, I obviously,

Speaker 3 you both know that I

Speaker 3 am so interested in philosophy and spirituality and organized religion from like a study perspective. And it was said to me when I was an undergrad theology major that God is between,

Speaker 3 you know, there's no like

Speaker 3 God without between. And that also is something that really stuck with me.
And again, just in terms of some of the opportunities I feel like this.

Speaker 3 too many brain chemicals has afforded me. One is, again, if you're having hyper presence and you're really feeling that between in such a real way, it's that is spiritual.
It's very cool.

Speaker 3 It's why people meditate. It's like why we even go to group fitness classes and all that stuff.
It's there's so much to community.

Speaker 3 And I feel like that's something that this has afforded me: like, just a little extra awareness of that experience. And again, sometimes it's too much.
Right.

Speaker 3 And I want to like murder everybody for their extremely low headphones that they're listening to.

Speaker 3 But yeah, I mean, is that possibly what we're all doing here? Is

Speaker 3 attempting to be connected? Yes.

Speaker 3 I'm curious because like,

Speaker 3 was it hard for you to accept this diagnosis?

Speaker 2 Or was it a relief?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 That's that one. Yes.

Speaker 2 You're like, oh, this is, because you're like, I know this moment very well, which is like something's wrong. I don't know what it is.
And then somebody hands you what it is.

Speaker 2 And it makes you feel such a relief that it somehow feels like, oh, it's not just all my fault. It's a thing.

Speaker 3 The all my fault thing is pretty intense. Yeah.
Right. Because there are some decisions that I've made in my life that had some pretty big consequences on other people.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 what I can do is take responsibility for those decisions and stay medicated and stay with support so that I don't make risky choices that scare the shit out of other people or hurt them.

Speaker 3 So that's one thing is like attempt because guilt and shame, that doesn't really help anybody.

Speaker 3 You know, nobody that I feel guilty toward is like, oh, thank God, now I have this like person who has an albatross around their neck that will make eye contact with me.

Speaker 3 You know, I think we can, well, at least for me, I've just been attempting to turn that into

Speaker 3 being a mature adult and taking responsibility. The fuck was I talking about? Was all their question?

Speaker 2 What, that it was a relief, that it was a relief.

Speaker 3 Oh, God, it was such a relief. Yeah.
I've had these experience two times in my life when I realized that I was queer.

Speaker 3 And then when I got this diagnosis, where it was just like, oh my god, finally, some like help in understanding. Prior to this, I didn't know there was like something.

Speaker 3 I was like, Am I on the autism spectrum? I just didn't know what it was.

Speaker 3 But yeah, this has just been, it's like been so awesome. Also, because, well, I guess the final thing I'll say is that it also gives me some relief in like

Speaker 3 the things in my life where I couldn't keep something going that somebody else, like I got too excited about a job and then

Speaker 3 that excitement didn't necessarily help that job, or I

Speaker 3 couldn't handle the particular ideas of a particular friendship. And so then that friendship went away.
And I think when I look back at my life, I also think,

Speaker 3 oh, stuff was like kind of hard for me.

Speaker 3 And then I can have a little bit more,

Speaker 3 it just helps.

Speaker 3 That's great.

Speaker 2 The special is going to help a lot lot of people. And it's the good kind of help, which doesn't feel like help.
It feels like entertainment. It doesn't feel fun.
It doesn't feel like help.

Speaker 3 You nail it. Thank God.
Thank God. It's accidental help.

Speaker 2 It's like you got a big candy bar and somebody just sneaked a teeny bit of broccoli in that you can't even taste.

Speaker 3 That's it. You know, like that's the thing, right? Why, why do we have humor? What is the point of comedy? And it is definitely to like just inject a little bit of knowledge and understanding in

Speaker 3 some other bullshit that hopefully is giggles

Speaker 3 giggles well more than anything in that doc it made me happy to hear that you're laughing that you're like literally having a good old time like good old chuckle every once in a while you're laughing i'm crying this has got to be the right direction it's the best yeah it's the best well i guess that's what i'm saying like by feeling a little more relaxed i don't know if that's what you're also describing

Speaker 3 i don't know i just also i like go into every room and be either like trying to punch everybody or like seduce everybody or like top everybody or like make everybody laugh. It was just like,

Speaker 3 dude, come on, man.

Speaker 3 So now you're with. Sometimes I laugh too.

Speaker 2 You're with. You're between.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 You're doing the thing. You are among people.
Also, laughter is a sign of submission.

Speaker 3 Like even in our, in our monkey mind,

Speaker 3 when primates are submitting, they show their teeth.

Speaker 3 And when we're laughing, we're like, just, yeah, we're we're allowing that we're going to be with, we're like allowing that somebody else could be funny.

Speaker 3 We're crying again, submitting to feelings. And like, do I need to be the boss all the time?

Speaker 3 Maybe.

Speaker 3 But I don't think that's helpful to me. Yeah.

Speaker 3 So good. We love you.
Can I ask you one more question, please? What does it feel like to cry?

Speaker 2 Well, for me, it has always felt like I had like a dam inside me. Like I could feel something welling up, but then there was like this

Speaker 2 wall that shut it back down, which I appreciated.

Speaker 2 Like when you say a thing you need until you don't need it, for me, it's usually I have a thing that is a survival technique for me that eventually tries to kill me. Like that's what it is.

Speaker 3 Yeah, man, for real.

Speaker 2 And if it didn't actually try to murder me, like if someone didn't sit me down and say, you're about to die, I would never get rid of it. So I have been lucky

Speaker 2 to have those those moments several times in my life where a professional has said, so here's the thing, the thing you're using to save your life is the murderer.

Speaker 2 It's my favorite thing about this realm of my recovery. I feel like

Speaker 2 when I cry now, like in front of my kids, like they can't believe it. It just happens all the time.
And they've, they've been my kids for. my whole life and they've never seen it.

Speaker 2 And so it makes me feel seen. It makes me feel like, oh, I see crying is the way that other people get to see our insides and what moves us.
And what moves us is who we are.

Speaker 2 So nobody was ever allowed to see who I was because nobody ever knew what was moving me. So it feels like there's a part of me that thinks, oh, nobody's known me until now.

Speaker 2 Because they can see on my face and my body what is moving me from the inside, which is a lot of things, it turns out. Right.
So it's exciting. It's a virtual being with myself, I guess.
I love that.

Speaker 3 Abby, are you good at crying? Yes.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I can cry. I mean, I can't cry like on the spot, but when something feels sad or joyful or wonderful, the tears are just, I'm the cry baby of the family.

Speaker 3 Yeah. But Glennon, it's been really interesting to watch because like from my perspective, when she started crying, I was like, oh my God,

Speaker 3 what is

Speaker 3 like the world is ending. Something is really wrong in there.
But it was just like she was just having a moment.

Speaker 3 So we've all gotten used to it. It's good to know you.
Yeah, I hear you. I mean, this is, I love that.
I'm so happy for you, Glennon. And, you know, I'll say that to just relate so much, right?

Speaker 3 Cause this is, I'm in my second marriage. I loved my ex-spouse so much.
And we're friends now. And also, we're both comedians.

Speaker 3 And so we connected by like basically having like a frown on, but like being extremely funny back and forth. And what an awesome gift, right?

Speaker 3 Like for somebody that was being understood only that way at that time, I feel so much gratitude for that. And it's like a public experience.

Speaker 3 And then one thing that I just wasn't able to do is like have a private experience the same way.

Speaker 3 And so that's really, you know, what

Speaker 3 is different in my marriage now a lot because of my availability. And like, we laugh so much at home.
Did you you know you can make jokes at home? Nobody's even listening.

Speaker 3 There's not even an audience. It's not even recorded.
We're goofing around. It's just the two of us.
Our dog can hear. Nobody else.

Speaker 2 What a waste, Cameron.

Speaker 3 What a freaking waste.

Speaker 3 What are we supposed to do with this? How do I sell this? Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 What is this? Happiness? What is the monetary reward?

Speaker 3 All righty.

Speaker 2 Okay, everybody, go see the special and we'll talk about it offline because you're going to want to talk about it. We love you, Pod Squad.
Cameron, thanks for this. Yeah.
Absolutely loved this.

Speaker 3 Thank you so much. What a beautiful interview.
And thanks for everything you've shared. You're the best.

Speaker 2 You're the best.

Speaker 3 See you next time, Pod Squad.

Speaker 2 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Speaker 2 Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

Speaker 2 To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

Speaker 2 This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

Speaker 2 We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 2 We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wombach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 2 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, and Bill Schultz.