Enneagram: Why Your Worst Traits Are Also Your Best with Suzanne Stabile

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Hello, Pod Squad.

Today we are revisiting an episode that I don't know if we have gotten more feedback.

than the feedback we got to this episode.

It really changed a lot of people's thinking about themselves and their people.

And it is our exploration into the Enneagram with the absolutely delightful Enneagram godmother herself, Suzanne Stibiel.

In this episode, Suzanne explains very clearly what the hell the Enneagram is and why it matters and how we can use it to get some better understanding into why we are the way we are, why our people are the way they are, and how to know each other better.

She highlights the gifts and the struggles that each type faces and why the worst part of you is often also the best part of you.

This conversation really stuck with Abby and led her to begin her work in therapy to examine and unearth her shadow side.

It helped me too to try to step out of my shadow side, which is my whole side, and remember that the sun exists.

If you like this one as much as we do, make sure to go find the bonus episode that aired after this one, episode 226, where Suzanne shows us how to use Enneagram to fix our relationships.

That was a doozy for me.

Okay, let's jump in.

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

Oh,

we have a treat today.

Very excited.

Today we are going to learn from the best about all things Enneagram.

Today, we have Suzanne Stebiel, who many of you know and who is an internationally recognized Enneagram teacher.

She is the co-author of The Road Back to You and the author of The Path Between Us and the Journey Toward Wholeness.

With backgrounds in sociology and theology, Suzanne has served as a high school professor, the first women's basketball coach at SMU after Title IX,

and as the founding director of shared housing a social service agency in Dallas Suzanne lives in Dallas with her husband Reverend Joseph Stebiel and she is the mother of four children and grandmother of nine wow so does anyone ever call you the Enneagramma or no just me

No, they do call me the godmother.

People call me the Enneagram godmother.

And we don't know who started that, but we like it.

Yeah.

So we're going with it.

Awesome.

Of course.

For those few people who don't know about the Enneagram, can you explain to us what it is and why it matters?

Sure.

I'm going to start with it matters.

And it matters because

it addresses dualistic thinking.

It addresses everybody's need to belong and their desire to have their life have meaning.

It adds compassion

to

everybody

who knows it and

makes space for it in their lives.

And it changes

how we

recognize our own importance in the world.

So the Enneagram is nine ways of seeing.

That's what it should be referred to as, because that's what it is.

And there are nine numbers, but they could have been trees or flowers or birds.

They happen to be numbers and

none are better than the others.

And in the reality of all of that, when it comes together, the seven plus billion people who are on the planet identify with one of the nine numbers.

And it's tricky right now because we have trendy Enneagram.

And, you know, there's two sides to everything, and there's two sides to trendy Enneagram.

And the downside is that

you can't know

your Enneagram type

with a quiz or based on your Halloween costume choice or what kind of salad you like.

It doesn't work that way.

And in fact, I'm not a fan of any of the indicators or the tests

for for several reasons.

One reason is because too many people come to me who, after they hear me teach it orally, report to me that the test was wrong.

I mean a high percentage of people.

And secondly, because your Enneagram number is determined by motivation and not by behavior.

Ah.

And the tests measure behavior.

Okay.

Wow.

We all do the same things, right?

We all do the same thing.

Right.

It's why we do them that matters.

Okay.

Can you go through the numbers?

Because we actually want to talk about the Enneagram, how to,

I don't know, is use the right word, how to see the, okay, use the Enneagram to

help our relationships, because I have found it so helpful to understand and be compassionate to.

other people.

I think that's a really beautiful way of using it.

But can you first go go through the numbers and tell us your favorite way to describe each and have people see themselves in the number or not?

Sure.

Real quick, because you synthesized 40 years of your research and teaching.

You have three minutes.

Okay, great.

Do y'all have anything for the third hour already scheduled?

Because you need to have somebody cancel that.

We just have you today.

Okay,

all day.

So you're in trouble.

All right.

First of all, I need to back up for a minute.

Okay.

In three hours, you will understand why

after reading all that you have written, it would be my great desire to know you.

And there are

maybe

20 meaningful, solid reasons for that.

But I want to give you two.

We're not going to get anywhere

if we can't tell the truth.

And we're not going to get anywhere if we can't tell the truth shamelessly.

And

I have a lot in common with you.

Really?

My first marriage was the wrong marriage.

I fought the good fight for women in athletics.

And we could talk about that for two and a half hours.

Abby, you and I could talk about that for five and a half hours.

I was cutting it short because it's not just you and me.

And

the reason

people

want to be with and learn from me is the same reason that people want to be with and learn from you.

And that's because we've figured out how to tell the truth and how to make space for people so they can be who they are without shame.

And that adds compassion to the world.

So,

thank you for inviting me into this conversation with you.

Thank you for that beautiful moment.

And thank you for seeing me.

And thank you for the work that you are doing in the world.

We have a lot of work to do.

Thank God we have.

I'm afraid it might take more than three hours for all the work we need to do in the world.

I'm so glad.

I'm so glad that in your threeness, you are in charge of how much time we're spending on feelings

and when we're going to get to the stuff.

It's mildly uncomfortable, I have to say.

No, it's beautiful.

I'm totally prepared to talk to the three of you about how messed up you are when it comes to feelings.

Oh, great.

Oh, my God.

And now I love you even more.

Finally, someone can explain to me myself.

Yeah, I can.

I've got the three of you.

I've got it all figured out and it's not going to take me long.

So we'll get back to the numbers.

And here we go with that.

I don't want to run through the numbers because that's what people do.

Okay.

And it's available everywhere.

Great.

So I do want to talk about the things that I think are currently really important

that each number offers and where each number has a limitation.

Perfect.

I started teaching with AIDS because anytime I'm teaching a beginning workshop, there are

men, mostly men and women who don't want to be in the room.

They're there because somebody said,

if you come to this, I'll, you know, I don't know.

I don't know what the agreement is, but you can tell

who's all folded up and doesn't want to be there.

That's that's what the men look like at my events as well.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, then you need to have me be your, uh, what do they call that when the not as good band comes out before the great

armor, the opener.

You need me to open for you because I know how to get to those people who don't want to be there.

You just talk about them.

Everybody wants to know about themselves.

Yes.

That's good.

Everybody does.

So the ones that are the most defiant are eights because they are by their nature the most defiant.

And

they think that this is just a waste of time and they could be playing golf or shopping or whatever.

And one of the reasons is because eights know that they're eights

and they like their number.

After an eight hears things taught, there are things about themselves that they feel like they might want to work on a little.

After I spend two or three years with them, there are things they want to work on big time, but it takes time.

You got to break them.

Yeah.

And their response to life is kind of like, man,

if everybody was an eight, think what we could do.

So I teach eights first.

And then there are the people who are there who think, ah, this isn't a real thing.

We're all just alike.

Well, if I teach eights and then I teach nines,

then they find out that we're nothing alike.

So then they've got a problem that I no longer have.

That's good.

But I want to teach the numbers in order.

So I teach eight, nine, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven.

So that's what I'm going to do now.

Eights Eights are

the fastest thinkers.

They have more energy than any other number.

They are awkward in relationships.

And they

are the reason

that hard decisions are made.

And if they do their work,

they can lead people to make hard decisions

without second-guessing themselves.

And here are some of the reasons why.

Their orientation to time is the future.

They problem solve an event before it happens.

They

are passionate about everything they do.

And if they're not passionate, they don't do it.

But they think passion covers all the feelings.

And I have to teach them that passion is a feeling.

And that other people have things like fear and anxiety and all kinds of stuff.

So once they learn that and once they do their work, then there is no end to what they can do.

They are feeling repressed.

because they think passion is the feeling.

And so they do life by using the doing and thinking centers.

And they do and think about it and do some more and think about it and do some more and think about it.

And they don't check feelings.

Okay, now I wish I didn't still have to have gender conversations, but we do.

And so I have to say that if you take all the gifts that make up AIDS and you put them in a man,

then in our culture, they are highly valued and respected, and people line up behind them like they are the Pied Piper.

And if you put those exact same gifts in a female, she is a bitch.

And

my daughter, who's an eight,

started telling us that people were calling her a bitch.

when she was in the fourth grade.

Oof.

My daughter, who until a year ago was the therapist for all of the

Catholic schools in the Fort Worth Diocese in Texas,

says that now they start calling those little girls bitches in first grade.

And then what follows is they start to stand back and deny themselves who they are

and be less smart because that gets them in trouble.

They just repress themselves and repress themselves.

Joey called me one morning and she said,

Mom, I don't think the golden rule applies to AIDS.

And an eight would say that, like, that's it, that you would expect that.

And I said, well, darling, what makes you think that?

And she said, well, I treat everybody exactly like I want to be treated, and it never goes well.

So,

culturally, there is a difference in

how eights are treated around the world.

But in our culture,

female eights

have to repress themselves until they find a space

that

values them and until they get comfortable enough in their own skin and in relationships with other people

that they take in how all nine numbers see

and their roles as leaders.

Wow.

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So does every number have work?

Like when you say, if they've done their work, I've heard you say if they've done their work several times.

So every number has a specific

work in their life that if they do it, they are at their healthiest.

And if they don't do it, they'll always have challenges.

That's correct.

Okay.

And the thing about the Enneagram.

is that it shows you what you're not getting right and it shows you how to fix it at at exactly the same time

if it's not minimized to cocktail talk and if it's taught well

so i'm gonna keep going through the numbers so we don't use the whole time doing that yeah great and then we'll use the next two hours to talk about the three relationships okay perfect

Listen to that three says to that.

But I just want to say, I'm just saying, I want to ask you, but I'm not positive that she's not a one.

I think we're not supposed to do this to each other.

We're not supposed to diagnose each other, but

I

just would like your opinion about whether or not she's a one.

And I wonder if that's just such a four of Glennon.

Well, I don't think that she chameleons.

I don't think she changes who she is.

Oh, don't use that word.

Damn it.

I don't think.

Let's put that in the annals.

Is that what that word is?

Of history.

Okay.

Chameleon, we're going to put in the annals of history.

It's dead to us.

And we're going to talk about threes in a different way.

Okay.

Wonderful.

Wonderful.

so i'll tell you we would be in a world of hurt if we didn't have them yeah okay

sorry sissy no like you might be a one but we'll know by the 530.

suzanne you live in texas right yeah okay that's really far i just want to come to your house right now

i know

okay

okay okay you send me when you want to come and I'll send you my schedule.

All right.

Oh, God.

That's so beautiful.

Okay.

I'll do it.

It's so true.

That's 100% true.

I'm going to be in California twice in the next three months.

Oh, will you come to our house?

Probably.

Okay.

We'll see where we are at 5:30.

All right.

Nines.

Nines orientation of time is the past.

And they're the number, if I could be another number that I would want to be.

They're laid back, peace-loving.

They see at least two sides to everything.

Now, y'all need to start remembering right now that the best part of you is also the worst part of you.

So the best part of eights is that they get stuff done and we want to follow them and they build big things and we want to be part of them and we couldn't make it without them.

But but we couldn't make it without nines or

ones or twos or threes or fours or fives or sixes or sevens either.

Right.

And so now you have nines right next to eight.

And I guess this is why they're at the top of the Enneagram, maybe.

And they kind of fall down both sides of the Enneagram.

And in doing that, they can see two sides to everything.

Cool.

That's the best part of them.

But that's the worst part of them.

My husband's a nine, and I'm feeling you at this moment that's it you can't just look at something and think okay we're gonna do this

and parenting with a nine who sees two sides to everything

it's like what's up with that yeah

right

we agree that the child is wrong the nine goes to deal with the child and comes back and says well oh my god sister that's happens to you

Of course it does.

It's the Enneagram.

It's not John's fault.

Well,

the thing is,

eight-year-old Bobby convinced me that he, in fact, might be right.

That's right.

Right?

That's correct.

And then somehow they have this woo-woo magic in them.

I'm married to one too, where you go,

oh, okay.

Yes, right?

And then you think, oh, I'm a bad parent.

Yeah, it's ridiculous.

All right.

Along with that, nines are the most stubborn number on the Enneagram.

So if you try to get them to do something that they don't want to do, they just dig in a little more.

But they don't tell you.

Oh, no.

No, no, no.

You know why?

Because we're in the anger triad right now.

So eight anger is straight up and then it's over.

Nine anger,

not so much.

It's passive-aggressive.

Do we need to get him in the room with you so he can defend himself?

Exactly.

Yeah, maybe at 6 30.

Okay.

Are we doing 6 30 your time and my time?

All of it.

Okay.

All right.

So

nines are

people

who have

zero interest in conflict.

So they do whatever they can to avoid conflict.

But

When there is a conflict with their integrity, then there's no doubt what they're going to choose.

and it's going to be on the side of right.

They don't care about the little stuff, they have a preference, but they won't go to bat for the little stuff.

The big stuff,

then they are standing solid, and you can count on them every time.

Their orientation at time is the past,

and so they're tethered to what's already happened,

and they rely on that to inform what's happening in the the present.

And they are

sometimes

too slow to respond.

And they struggle to believe that their presence matters.

And in that struggle, it's our responsibility to teach them that their presence matters.

Wow.

With eights, it's our responsibility to teach them that we're not going to betray them because that's what eights expect.

Eights say they have no fears.

Their fear is of being betrayed.

And so we have to teach them with how we live in relationship with them that we won't betray them, but we cannot just say it to them.

We can't do that.

It doesn't work.

If you walk up to an eight and say, you know, I would never betray you, they write you off right then.

Oof.

You know, eights have never argued with this in all these years of teaching.

They've never argued with me about this comment.

Eights will have maybe 10 people in a lifetime that they trust.

Wow.

Damn.

Maybe 10.

All right, so you got these strong eights, and next to them, you've got nines.

They are equally strong, but in a completely different way.

And both have gifts that we have to have to make life work.

And then we're going to add ones.

All right, right, Amanda, we're going to decide if you're a one right now with one question.

Do you have a constant internal critic that you've had since you were a child

that never ever gives you an Ada girl

and that tells you constantly that you're not up for what's happening, that you're not behaving appropriately within what is happening, that you don't have what it takes, that you are never going going to get it

no

then you are not a one because they all have that maybe mine was talking so loud that i just heard it for you

i do have the one that's like you could have done that better here's where you missed that thing but i acknowledge when I am nailing something and I just think, oh, that marginal thing could have been better.

So that doesn't count, right?

That's right.

That's threeness.

Okay.

Okay.

Now we all have self-talk.

You know, we all beat ourselves up.

And

when we have lived in the kind of vulnerability

that I know Lennon and Abby and I have lived in, I don't know all that about you yet, but I'm going to find out.

The answer is

to know each other better.

I'm coming to you.

Let's write a book together.

So

when life

shames you,

twos, threes, and fours are in the shame

triad.

So it's our default emotion.

And that's why sometimes people confuse whether or not you're a three or a one.

Self-talk is everybody.

And shame is primarily twos, threes, and four.

Got it.

Okay.

Nines are the number most people want to be, by the way.

It's like, I want to be that.

Joe has a t-shirt that says laid back since way back.

And that's how he is, actually.

All right.

Ones.

Let's imagine for a minute.

A little kid who starts to hear this voice in his head.

It might be one he's heard somewhere else.

It might not be,

who just criticizes him all the time or her.

And let's say that she's in second grade.

And because of the critic, she can't stand to erase.

So every time she makes a mistake in school, she starts over.

And she starts over because her orientation of time is the present moment and she can't get it right.

And she knows it looks bad if she erases.

And she thinks she has time to get it perfect.

And then recess comes and she doesn't get to go to recess because she didn't finish her work.

And she didn't finish her work because the critic told her it wasn't good enough.

Okay, now let's just start growing that up.

Grow it up and grow it up and grow it up.

And then ones are always hearing.

the voices of whoever they're with and the voice of the critic.

And sometimes they've had the critic for so long that they're numb to that.

So they get to a point where they cannot hear it, and yet it gets them at the same time.

So they're trying to please the critic and everybody else.

And so perfection is what they seek because they don't know what else to seek.

And that's perfection in thought and word and deed.

And what they want from all of us is for us to show them in a way that they can believe it, that they're good.

But if they have to ask us if they're good, if we tell them that they're good, it doesn't count.

So you have to get ahead of it.

Can't send a text.

It's too easy to dismiss.

Can't send an email because there are too many to read.

Y'all know if you answer somebody on email, they just email you right away.

Oh my God.

It's the worst system ever.

I would go back to just having a phone and a heart.

I know.

There's no going back, girl.

I know, but then people who I think it would weed out 80%.

I think the people who actually called us would be people who were actually invested in us instead of just the emailing thing, which anybody can do.

This is off topic.

Back to you.

I'm sorry I brought it up if it's off topic.

No, that was me.

That was me.

Oh, it's me too.

But it's you and me for different reasons.

So we'll talk about that later.

Okay.

Mark that and we'll talk about that later.

Marked.

Marked.

So

ones

are the number that I would least want to be

because of the critic.

But if I had to have brain surgery,

I promise you I would interview brain surgeons till I found a one.

Cool.

Yeah.

The only thing I can't do without more than my brain is my mouth.

And they tell me they're connected.

So I, you know, I got to talk because that's what I do.

So there's that whole problem.

And ones look for fault in other people

because it's the only thing that levels the playing ground.

Otherwise, where are they going to stand?

If you're not wrong about something and you're not wrong about something, and you're not wrong about something, then I don't have a place to stand because I've got this voice that's telling me that I'm wrong all the time.

Oh, geez.

That sounds familiar, actually.

Uh-oh.

Are we having a number crisis here?

We're waiting back in there.

Okay.

Did you see Glennon lick her lips?

Like, yeah, I'm right.

No, I don't, I have no further opinion.

Okay,

amanda we're gonna come back to that because we all have that sometimes okay okay

i will leave you with this regarding ones and threes my guess is that when you're trying to get stuff done and get it done right the first time and make sure other people are doing their part right the first time it's for efficiency

not for atta girls

all right

so eight nines and ones make up the anger triad.

So let's keep in mind that eights want to hear that they're not going to be betrayed.

Nines want to hear that their presence matters.

Ones want to hear that they're good.

Eight orientation to time is the future.

Nine orientation to time is the past.

One orientation to time is the present moment.

And eight anger is straight up and then it's over.

Nine anger is passive aggressive.

And one anger is expressed as resentment

because ones turn their anger in on themselves first.

And then when they can't hold it anymore, it kind of just spews out.

And ones are very seldom angry with whomever or whatever they're angry about.

All right, let's talk about twos, threes, and four.

Now we've moved into the feeling triad.

Yes, we have.

And Glennon, that's where you and I reside.

Oh, and Amanda, we're all there.

Sorry, Abby.

No problem.

I bet it is no problem knowing how you like to deal with feelings.

No problem.

That's her t-shirt, Suzanne.

No problem.

Laid back since lay back and no problem.

No feelings, no problem.

She has feelings.

She just has a half range.

All right, so here we are.

Twos, threes, and fours.

This is a feeling disaster right here.

All right.

So, for twos,

they take in information first from the world with feeling, and then they want to do something about it.

The problem with that is that twos

feel other people's feelings, not their own.

Y'all don't know yet how much I adore my husband.

I'm still so in love with him, I can hardly stand it.

Oh my God,

and

I

trust him with,

there's nothing I don't trust him with.

Nothing.

And he says to me this question from time to time, just tell me what you're feeling and we can handle this.

And the answer is,

I don't know.

Second question, just tell me what you want.

Tell me what you need and we can handle it.

I don't know that either.

I know what everybody else feels and I know what everybody else needs and I know it intuitively.

And if I don't do my work, I spend my life taking care of them

and going back home feeling utilitarian and feeling like people take me for granted.

And I slide down the wall crying and say, forget it.

Nobody cares anymore.

But when I'm healthy, I approach people with feelings or I receive them as they approach me with their feelings.

And I think,

why am I engaging with this other person?

That's the first question.

Second question,

is this mine to do?

Third question, does the other person even want my help?

Y'all, can you imagine in 72 years how many people I've helped who didn't want my help?

It's astonishing when I think about it.

I help people reach things in the grocery store.

I help people who don't know me.

One older woman I ran into at 72, I'm saying she's older.

She's probably 95.

And she's standing looking at all the cereal boxes and she said,

Do you remember when we used to only have four cereals?

I said, I do.

It was much easier, wasn't it?

And she said, yes.

I thought about my mom at 92.

I handed her a box of raisin bran.

I said, I think this would be perfect.

I met her on the next aisle and she had corn checks in her basket.

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So I'm going to go around after I finish all of this and talk about what we have to bring up and why.

But what you have to see about twos is that we're really good teachers and we're really good nurses and we're really good helpers.

In fact, we're called the giver and there's a reason for that, except that we're terrible at taking care of ourselves.

And that's our work.

I put a definition of self-care that's on some tin thing that I ordered somewhere online because I don't even know what it is.

And if y'all said to me right now, tell me what self-care, what that definition is,

I don't remember.

I think it says something like, I need to take care of me first.

Maybe.

And what I need to hear and believe is that I'm wanted.

I want you so much to be able to do it.

Me too.

Me too.

Thank you.

I want you to.

Threes.

Make the world go round.

Truth.

Yes.

And here's why.

Especially in our culture, we value youth and efficiency and effectiveness.

And

threes have it.

They have all of that, bundles and bundles and bundles of all of that.

Your orientation of time is the future.

So you look to the future, you plan for the future, you know what the future is going to look like.

And along with Abby and AIDS,

you feel like you can change the future.

That's astonishing.

So, y'all go for it,

and you think you can mold it into what you want it to be.

Are you suggesting that's not true?

I'm just hinting, I don't want to lose one of my hours, so I'm just hinting.

Okay,

so um,

the reality is with threes and sevens

is that it's the hardest for them to get on this journey toward growth by understanding how they see the world and how other people see the world because people don't want you to change.

Oh,

damn.

They're good if the rest of us change.

Yes.

But it messes with everybody's life if you change.

Wow.

That's right.

And so when you start to do your work,

some of which, Abby, is in your book,

when you start to do your work, people don't support that.

Because they want good old, happy seven.

That's right.

And when threes start to do their work, here's your biggest gift, Amanda, and it's a big one.

And you can learn to use it in moderation so you don't have to give it up.

You're feeling repressed.

And here's what that means.

But all the magic is with you and feelings because you can read every room with two people or 2002 and know how they feel.

And then you don't use those feelings.

You don't consider that when you decide what you're going to do.

and when and how you're going to do it.

It's just something you know.

So the work I need to do, or that's what I do.

Well, the work you need to do is you got to bring up feelings.

And what you do is you have a feeling and then you set it aside.

Correct.

Because it messes with efficiency and effectiveness.

It's just messy.

It's not predictable.

You have a plan.

You made today's plan last night

and you have a plan for the day.

And if feelings get all up in your plan, you don't like them and you don't know what to do with them.

And so you set them aside with every intention of dealing with them later.

Correct.

But later doesn't come.

It just

because they live in the future.

That's right.

And so there's the magic.

It's magic in our culture of being able to read the feelings in a room and then not use that reading to decide what you're going to do next.

That is magic.

And nobody who works with you, beside you, for you, wants that to change because that's what makes things happen.

So, you got to learn to bring up feelings

and hold them and consider what's happening in the room while you effectively and efficiently keep moving forward.

And you have to trust your response to them

instead of setting them aside and not revisiting them.

Cool.

Got it.

Got it.

Well, you think what I have to do.

I have to walk into a room and read everybody's feelings and just not respond.

Okay, so her problem is that, is it a problem or a good thing that she's reading everyone's energy and then not considering it when she makes her next decision?

What does that look like in practice?

It's a problem.

Oh, it's a problem.

It's a problem.

And here's why it's a problem.

Okay.

Because we have three native intelligences.

We all have them.

We all got them at birth.

We've all got them.

Thinking, feeling, and doing.

Enneagram triads are determined by which one's dominant.

Enneagram stances are determined by which one's repressed.

And the other one supports the dominant.

Okay.

So there are three three aggressive numbers threes sevens and eights

and when we talk about eights

then we're talking about the fact that they have a feeling and it's passion

and it covers things

supposedly

and when we get to sevens we're going to talk about a half range of feelings the happy half

that's her

And when we are at threes, we're talking about, I take in information with feelings.

I just don't use that information to process those.

What I'm going to do next.

It's not practical or efficient.

Can't use that.

It's unwieldy.

That's right.

And so we are off balance anytime we're not using all three centers.

And that's what the journey toward wholeness is about.

Okay.

How am I going to manage my dominant center, which is my favorite?

So Lennon and Amanda and me, feeling is our favorite.

We love it the most.

That's how we take in information.

And we then only use one other one.

And so Amanda has a three after you take in information with feelings, then you set feelings aside.

And then you're operating in the world like an eight does, only inverse.

Eights are doing and then thinking.

And you're using doing and thinking.

and doing and thinking and you're not using feeling.

Huh.

Yeah.

Right.

Uh-huh.

Yes.

Yes.

But it's like almost like this weird superpower that Sister Amanda has because she gets the feeling.

She understands it.

That's helping her make the decisions to the thinking and doing, but she's setting aside the actual art and act of feeling.

That's right.

That's exactly right.

Good job, Pam.

All right.

So here's this.

So imagine I'm just at my house one day and

Richard Rohr calls.

And he says, Suzanne,

I'm going to teach in Italy this summer.

Would you like to come teach with me?

So that's where you put the phone down so nobody can hear and you jump up and down and scream.

Right.

Right.

And then you come back to the phone and you say,

I'd love to.

I'll have to check my calendar.

And he said, you're free.

I checked.

And I said, I'd love to.

So we get there.

And

I teach a know your number the first day

to people who speak

17 different languages from 21 different countries.

Wow.

Had a polyglot in the room who spoke eight languages.

Oh my gosh.

And then they,

yeah, amazing.

And then they had translators.

So I teach know your number and Richard is doing stuff for people who already know their number.

They're exploring Francis Sinclair's caves and stuff.

So the next day we teach together.

So here I am in Assisi, Italy, with my mentor and teacher and friend.

And

the plan is for the first period that he's going to teach and I'm going to respond.

So he teaches and just imagine how prepared I am and prayed up.

Like I got all the stuff going.

I'm ready, right?

And I stand up to respond and I do a pretty good job.

And they have translators in the back of the room, French and German.

And I'm teaching and I have a good feel except for this one guy.

And he's all folded up and looking kind of mean at me.

And I see that he doesn't have headphones on.

So I thought,

bless his heart.

He doesn't speak English.

So it comes time for the break and I come down the three steps off the platform, go to him as fast as I can.

And you know what we do, right, when we think people don't speak our language.

We have to talk louder.

So I'm screaming at this guy.

They have translators,

German, French.

They got translators.

And he looks at me and says,

I speak English.

And I said, you do?

And he said, obviously.

I said, well, why don't you respond to anything I say?

People respond when I teach.

Why don't you respond to anything I say?

And he said, I just don't like you.

Oh.

And I said,

what any two would say.

Why?

Right?

Like, I can be what you like.

Just tell me.

And he said, I don't like anything about you.

And I turned to walk away and I thought, I'm never going to feel this small again.

This is it right here.

But it wasn't it, because I hear Richard behind me.

And he said, Still going after the one, are you?

Oh.

He said, Suzanne, you had 299 people in your hand,

and you are going after that guy.

Amanda, you would never go after that guy.

Lennon, you would never go after that guy.

I don't go after guys in general.

You wouldn't have gone after this one.

So do you see the gift that that is that we have in threes?

But in order to be numb to that guy or to whatever is going to keep us from starting on time or to whatever's going to keep the project from working, you have to numb yourself to other feelings as well.

And so you have to learn to bring up feelings so that you can manage life with thinking and feeling and doing.

Wow.

And nobody wants you to do things any differently than you're doing.

So if you start feeling stuff, the people around you are going to say, what's happening?

That's true.

I think it's true.

When she gets mad, I get so upset.

When she feels sad, I feel so upset.

When she feels anything i feel so upset yes yeah but it's weird because there's this thing that we want i think that what we're saying to sister is like we just want her to have the space to feel all the feelings yeah but if your person's a three you're like we want you to have the full human experience could you just make sure you're doing it between two and four on sunday because that's when i don't need you right that's it right there

that's it

So for Abby, for you, it would have been, we want you to have a full range of feelings.

Just don't let it affect your game.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That rings.

That's true.

All right.

Let's talk to the feeling queen for a little bit.

Fours orientation time is the past.

And that means that it's filled with longing.

If only.

If only that could have been, if only that hadn't happened, if only,

if only.

And fours and ones

somehow believe

that they arrived on the planet flawed in some way.

Like there's something wrong with me.

And so all the numbers are associated with a passion or a sin.

We used to use the word sin, but so many people have been hurt by that word.

Passion has also been used.

in ancient time, and I'm using that more now than I used to.

And the passion for fours is envy, but people don't know the difference in envy and jealousy.

And so they think fours are jealous.

Jealous is wanting what somebody else, their stuff, their position, that stuff.

What fours envy is the comfort that the rest of us have in the world.

Oh, yeah.

Yes.

They just want to be comfortable.

Yeah.

I say that all the time.

And Abby's like, Do you need a different sweater?

Do you need whatever?

And I'm like, no, on the earth.

Right.

No, I need to be a different Enneagram type.

And you're never going to be.

Right.

You were born this type.

You are this type.

You're going to be this type.

So we all got to do our work to be the best of this type we can be.

So what fours long for,

and by the way, it's problematic because fours are comfortable with longing.

It's a familiar feeling.

And so what fours long for is the comfort that the rest of us seem to have out here in the world.

What they long for is the peace that we seem to have when we're just out doing stuff, when we're not worried about everything.

And what they want more than anything

is relationship.

It's the thing.

And they desire relationship from the time that they're little kids until their last breath

relationships relationship relationship and that doesn't mean with more people what it means is they desire to have relationships that they can count on that go deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper

And so for us make the mistake

of starting off trying to talk to to people they met yesterday

on the same level that they talk

with people who they've known for five years.

That is good.

Yeah, but it weeds people out really fast.

Yes.

But what if it weeds out somebody that you want in your life?

And so

Fours have a lot of work to do.

That's my t-shirt.

A lot of work to do.

And it's okay because they want to do it.

Yeah.

If you said, who's going to sign up to do the work we need to do?

Fours would be first in line.

Not like

helpful work to everyone else, but you're talking about inner self-work.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

How can I have this normal, whatever that is, thing that everybody has?

And how can I walk around on the globe for a day or two and not feel like I'm flawed in some significant way?

How can I have that?

And

so

the way, actually, that you can have that is by bringing up doing.

But I don't know if we're going to have time to talk about all that today.

Because that's where you like balance.

See, I don't, I believe it or not, with all this brilliance, I'm thinking repressed.

So I figured out how to make my way in the world, just reading people's feelings and doing what they want.

You've done a really good job.

Yeah.

The problem with not thinking is it's about to do me in.

I'm going to have to make some decisions about who and what I'm supposed to care for.

That's so interesting.

So the doing is my.

Yes.

That's what you have to bring up.

Okay.

And you don't like everyday doing.

No, no.

No, doing the interesting things,

shopping at the store where the fruit is beautiful,

doing things that have texture and that are attractive to you and that you know you can kind of get into and that has depth to it in some way.

That's the doing you want to do.

But the bills have to be paid.

The garage has to be cleaned out.

You have to get on the bottom.

The cabinets have to be closed.

The toothbrush has to be washed, but we're not interested in that.

I had now myself.

The reason we think she's a one is because she says that.

Yeah.

But she's saying that for efficiency reasons.

See, it's the motivation.

It's inefficient to leave the cabinet doors open.

Right.

Because then when I get in there, I have to close them before I can do what I'm there to do.

So, what is the four's motivation?

Your motivation is

your deep desire to be seen.

That'd be nice.

And heard.

That'd be cool.

But your deepest desire is to be understood.

Yes,

that tracks.

And you've done a lot of things to try to be understood.

You are kind of screaming at the world saying, would you please don't

see me by now?

Right.

Right.

That's it.

It's like,

I told you everything,

except how often I clip my toenails

because I just would like to be seen and heard and understood.

Yeah.

So do the other numbers not think there's something wrong with them?

Like they're not on this quest their whole life to figure out what is wrong with them.

God, that must be nice.

Okay.

And I think there are fewer fours than any other number.

And I think there are a lot of people who don't know a

Richard Foster, a Quaker, wrote some books years ago about spiritual practices.

They're very good to this minute.

And

I think I may, maybe I knew this.

He said this in the early 80s.

He said, and I don't do this kind of talk much, so don't get sidetracked by it, but he said,

the new tools of the devil are muchness and manyness and noise and crowds and hurry.

Okay, now let's add technology.

So let's take the devil out for many

for whom that doesn't track well.

And let's use distraction.

The new tools that distract us from our lives are muchness and manyness

and noise and crowds and hurry and technology.

That leaves no space for a four.

That's right.

There's no space.

So, what you're looking for is a place to stand in a world that moves really fast.

And when they say, how are you?

They don't mean that.

They mean hello.

It's just another way to say, hey, y'all.

Yeah.

Right.

And for

you and for me, when people say, how are you?

What happens inside of us is how long do you have?

Right.

and for you it's never long enough right

you cannot get people to slow down enough

to understand you they see you and they hear you and millions and millions and millions of people identify with you

but that's not the same thing as understanding

are lots of fours addicts

Is that a thing?

Because

it feels like fours and sevens.

Fours and seven.

Oh, well, there you go.

Check, check.

You're 100% right on this call.

But there are a hundred reasons why.

Right.

So when we get to sevens, we'll talk about that more.

Let's review for a minute.

Okay.

Twos are feeling dominant and they support feeling with doing.

Threes are feeling dominant, but they immediately set feelings aside because they're the core number of that triad.

And they do life with just thinking and doing.

Fours are feeling dominant,

and they support feeling with thinking.

And so they feel and think and feel some more about what they think.

And then they have more feelings about what they think about what they feel.

And that is their world until they bring up doing and bring balance to their lives.

I'm crying right now.

She's laughing.

So let's have a one little minute time out and let's say this.

I know that everybody can't see us

and won't, but they can hear us.

But what nobody sees.

is all of the expressions of compassion

that are visible from all four of us.

And that's why I teach the Enneagram.

Oh, God.

Yeah.

Because

we need a more compassionate world.

And the Enneagram hands it to you.

Yes.

Once you know the Enneagram, you have no excuse for not recognizing that we're not all pretty much the same.

We all take in information and process it in our own particular way.

We all have gifts that the world needs, and they're not the same.

And we all have a responsibility

to understand people who don't see the world the way we do.

It's good.

Beautiful.

It's really good.

We love you, Suzanne.

Oh, y'all.

I'm so thankful for this opportunity to be with you.

And I so hope I gave you what you want.

Bye, Pod Squad.

We'll see you guys next time.

Thanks for coming.

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