Potholes & Productive Conflict in Relationships with Abby & Glennon

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Hello, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

Today, you are going to notice that there are only two of us here.

It's just Abby and me.

And what we thought we would do today is sit down together and talk to the pod squad by hearing a lot of their questions that they have in particular for me or for Abby or for both of us together and respond to you all.

This is so fun.

Is it?

Yeah, I like questions that are asked to me.

Okay, great.

Well, let's get into it, babe.

Great.

Hi, my name is Morgan.

I'm calling because

I love my girlfriend very, very much.

But I am concerned that she may be one of the only good things in my life, and I'm letting her be that way.

And I just want to

understand how I can both honor this relationship.

and love her as deeply as I do while also loving myself and giving space for myself.

Y'all are the best.

Thank you so much for this podcast and for everything.

It's so brave to be able to admit that.

Yeah, I relate to Morgan.

Do you?

I do.

I do.

I remember a long time ago, we were doing an interview on here with Esther Perel, and she said something that I did not resonate with in the moment, but over time I have come to resonate with.

And she said, in many relationships, there is one person who is afraid of losing the other person,

and there is one person who is afraid of losing herself.

And at the time, it seemed like too much of an oversimplification for me to

accept, but I have noticed it since then.

I can see it in couples.

I can see it in us.

And I recently was talking to a friend who is an artist, and she is in the first happy relationship of her life, and it is a beautiful, healthy relationship.

And it's two women and she is afraid

she's made it through the first few months of just complete loss of identity where you just get totally soaked into the other person right you just don't you forget you have a self yeah which is such a beautiful relief do you remember those days oh i've been when we first fell in love

i'd felt like i disappeared yeah but i loved it at the time it was like

i wrote a poem about it in Untamed, actually.

It was, it was like, I have always felt like I'm midnight blue and you were like this pearl color.

And when we fell in love, I was no longer midnight blue.

We just like mixed together and we were like this light blue.

And suddenly I was just gone.

And it was the most beautiful disintegration of self ever.

Like, that's what I think is so addictive about falling in love and why it's like drugs.

It's like drugs.

I also loved drugs for the same reason that I loved being in love in the beginning because I was gone.

Yep.

Same parts your brain light up, actually.

Yeah.

And then after being beautifully and euphorically gone for a while, you start to settle into existing again.

That's why they call it like falling in love.

It's like just a free fall of, and then there's a landing again, right?

Which is so.

hard.

I remember being really scared about that time for you because you had never fallen so hard before.

No.

And I remember having to have a conversation with you about that because I was like, I didn't want you to keep wanting to keep falling in love.

I wanted you to want to land with me.

And I was afraid that you were going to hate the landing.

Yeah, you kept saying, I remember having a conversation where I said, I'm annoyed you keep talking about this.

It was like you were warning me.

You're like, it's not going to always be like this.

And I felt, I said,

I feel like you're saying it's going to get worse.

And you said, no, it's going to change.

It's going to get better.

Yeah.

That part is better, like that landing part where the drugs are gone from your brain.

Yeah.

And you are two people again.

Yeah.

And then that's where the actual relationship starts.

Exactly.

Falling in love, that's not a relationship.

I know.

It's an enmeshment.

It's an enmeshment.

You become one.

You're both on the same road.

And then the landing happens.

And then the road splits.

And so some people split forever and the gap between those spaces is very wide.

And those couples who can stay together for a long period of time manage to keep the two roads very close to each other.

Yeah.

So you're like parallel walking side by side.

Yeah.

And that is the relationship.

The beginning part is magic, wild,

lose your mind.

And then

a relationship has to be between two solid people.

Yeah.

Right.

So I love you means there's an I and there's a you, right?

And so I think that this part is hard.

Did she say yes?

She's a woman with a woman.

I find

the landing part is excruciating that difficult for lesbians.

Yeah.

Because we really like enmeshment as a generalization.

I have a friend getting back to her who felt afraid.

She remembered her I-ness.

The phases moved from falling to landing.

She felt the landing coming on in the relationship.

And it wasn't that she was loving her person any less.

It was just that she was remembering that she was a person with needs and creativity and an eye that also needed to be tended to and needed to have time.

And

I think that that, while it can feel like a betrayal, like what Morgan is saying is she feels like remembering that she's also an individual and maybe even having to remind her girlfriend that she is an individual who needs time and who also needs to pursue her own stuff is a betrayal of the relationship.

But it's actually the only way to keep it healthy.

Yeah, I think,

God, I know this feeling because

early on, I thought that you loving me solved.

the problem that I was experiencing of not being able to know how to love myself.

The love that you were expressing on me was so poignant and textured and real.

And I just felt it all the way through.

And the love that I had for you made me feel like I know this thing called love.

But as time went on in our relationship, I do believe that we have found each other so that we can heal our own individual selves.

But we needed to create a safe enough space for each of us to be able to actually want to do that internalized work and want to go down those roads.

Yeah.

And that was hard.

I mean, you started writing Untamed

a year or two into our relationship.

So that love time kind of came to an end.

And then you went right into this period of

kind of isolation to get this book written.

And I remember that was a really hard thing for me because I didn't know how to take care of myself.

I didn't know how to love myself.

I'm just now coming into a place in myself and life that I'm starting to like open or peel back the layer, whatever you want to call it.

I get how terrifying it is.

And also I want to push back on Morgan a little bit because she's saying that her girlfriend is like the only good thing in her life.

And I think that that might be like.

this positivity bias, this one, I don't think that that can be true.

Well, I think what she's saying is it's the only good thing she's making room for.

That's right.

That's what I'm saying.

It's like her aperture is so focused on this one thing that she's like, there's nothing else good.

She's a little, I can hear like some fear in there.

This can't be healthy kind of thing.

How do I love myself?

How do I open the aperture?

Yeah.

And I get it.

It's scary.

And the friend who I'm talking about was so scared.

I think she was like Morgan.

I think she was so scared to hurt her girlfriend's feelings.

Yeah.

Because it's terrifying to like interrupt enmeshment with a reminder that you're an individual can feel so mean.

It can feel like a betrayal of the relationship.

Yeah.

But this is where the rubber meets the road.

Yeah.

This is where you find out if your relationship is going to be a long-term, lasting, loving, lasting relationship.

Like to me, I almost wanted to get there quick enough to be like, are we going to be good?

Yeah.

I feel like for us,

we didn't.

fully un-enmesh.

I don't think it's like a thing that you,

at least for us that you do you're enmeshed at the beginning and then you're not codependent and you're healthily two individuals like we're so codependent when you i'm just thinking right now about how when we go to bed and i say do you want tea and you say no it upsets me so much i feel like what are you doing this is what we do we have tea and we're gonna get in bed and we're gonna drink our tea and i know if you have tea that you're gonna be drinking it for at least 20 minutes so that means you're gonna be awake for 20 minutes.

You're going to abandon me and sleep without our agreed upon tea transition time.

The other night you got so mad because we got home late after an event, Fortune or TIG situation.

And I was so tired.

We had been going all day.

And I just got into bed and

I shut it down.

I powered down.

And you were like, wait, it's too fast.

What are you doing?

Hold.

And I was like, I'm tired.

I can't do the thing.

I don't want to do the nighttime ritual tonight.

I can't.

Yeah.

So we get that.

I think allowing yourself moments every day for healthy individuation and for codependent enmeshment.

Yeah.

You can have it all, Morgan, is what we're saying.

But you do have to have it.

You do have to have it.

So like, just go on a walk by yourself.

And then like what ends up happening, Glenn and I work together.

We live together.

We never leave the house.

We are enmeshed in a lot of ways.

But like sometimes when I go do do something on my own or go for a walk or go have coffee with a friend or go drive amateur soccer practice, like something that's not with Glennon, we come back and we're like, hey,

how was that time that we weren't together?

And it creates this kind of wonder and awe.

Oh my gosh, you were just, you were doing people things out there all on your own.

Tell me how that was.

Or sometimes you just go work out or do a sauna and you come back and I'm like, did anything happen?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you're like, what would have happened?

I just was in a box.

I don't know.

It's something might have new come up that now we get to share with each other.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, Rilke said that the highest form of love is protecting each other's solitude.

And I do feel like at the end of the day, we are individual creatures.

Nobody can ever escape that.

As much as we might try in love, in booze, in whatever, we do have a self, which means that every and any any truly healthy relationship honors that there are two different selves in it who might have different needs and different joys and who need to nurture each other's.

Yeah.

I think, though, that we were not separate selves in the past.

Okay.

And that's why when we came together, it was magnetic.

There's parts of your soul that were also parts of my soul pre-earth time.

Okay, let's listen to the next one.

Dee.

Hi, this is Dee.

I've had a question for a very long time.

It's for Abby and Glennon.

It seems like from the outside, you are an introvert-extrovert pairing.

And I'm wondering how you navigate that in your relationship.

I'm an introvert.

My boyfriend is the most extroverted puppy dog I've ever met in my life.

And I have a hard time.

We're going to move in together soon.

And it's like, how do I ask for space without hurting his feelings?

And is there a magical thing that you two have figured out that you could share with the rest of the world?

Love you both.

Love you all.

I'm not going to pick a favorite.

Love you all.

Bye.

Everybody has a theory about introverts and extroverts, right?

I think that

what I've noticed about us is

I don't know if there's a true,

if it's a spectrum, if there's anyone who is only an introvert and anyone who is only an extrovert.

Like it feels to me that there are two different ways of being that some people are more, their comfort zone is more introverted and the other person's comfort zone is more extroverted.

And the beauty of

having a marriage where there's one of each is that the other person's preference helps you illuminate a part of yourself that you didn't know you actually need to swim in sometimes.

Like

Abby's social side,

her,

you know, getting some life or energy or connection out of being with other people

has made me caving to that sometimes, as we must do for each other.

has made me discover

that it's actually quite important to me too.

I mean, I am probably pretty far on the introvert side, right?

But the older I get, the more I realize that we had a dinner the other night and there were three other couples there and we talked for five hours at a table and it was absolutely life-giving and magical for me.

Yep.

It was the right kind of social for me because it was people that I felt very safe with.

It was people who were being very vulnerable and deep and not just staying on the surface of things and getting to the meat of life and sharing their pain and their joy.

And it was that sort of thing.

But

I do need

connection with other human beings.

And Abby

does

need.

alone time and Abby does need to sit with herself.

Would you agree that

my way,

you being forced to, I've been forced to adopt some of your way because as a couple, I need to honor your need for social interaction and that has helped me.

Would you say that because I abandon you all the time so I can have alone time,

that you have discovered the importance of introverted time for yourself?

I mean, it's interesting.

I'm just sitting here really thinking about myself.

And I spend a lot of time alone.

I spend a lot of time alone.

Thinking about myself 10 years ago, that was not the case.

I never spent any time alone.

And that was a byproduct of my job and my addictions.

I think that sober Abby is not as extroverted as alcoholic Abby.

I think I have learned to work on some of my introvertedness

and express some of that introvertedness throughout a day

because I've been forced into it, because you

do really need solitude and time to yourself to recharge.

I've also been kind of considering these blanket statements of introvertedness and extrovertedness, because I don't know if it's about energy necessarily.

I also think it's about love and experience.

And I think having

for me, the kind of personality that I used to have and the kind of personality that I'm developing now, soccer player, pre-Abby to like current Abby.

And I'm just getting older.

So I'm really interested more in my interior space

because I am very conscious of the fact that the kids will be leaving soon.

There's going to be less chaos in the house.

And I really want to work on that space for myself so that when it does get more quiet here, that I don't feel scared.

yes to answer your question you definitely have helped me learn

more solitude can i ask you a question about what you just said because it just made me think of something

it's so interesting that you said so i won't feel as scared i think it's so interesting that i wonder if this is true about introverts and extroverts i tend to feel more scared when we're surrounded by people.

And you tend to feel more scared

when you're alone.

Yeah.

And that is an interesting way to think about introversion and extroversion.

Yeah, like your comfortability.

Like, I think that you used that word just a little bit ago.

I think that that really rings true because I don't.

What are you scared of when you're alone?

Well, I think it's interesting.

I feel less scared than I used to be.

And this is going to make no sense once.

I have always been scared that nothing's there.

That like folks who feel less scared or more comfortable being alone, they know that they know themselves and the parts of themselves they feel fine with.

And I've always been scared that there would be nothing there or that everything there would be shameful or unlovable.

And I don't believe that anymore.

And so it's like, oh, here I am.

This is who I get to take with me everywhere on this earth for the rest of my life.

And I want to get into relationship with myself.

And so that's what I've been doing all of my therapy on for the last six months is to get into a better relationship with myself.

One, because the kids are leaving.

Two, because I think that that would be super healthy and important for the rest of my life.

And then three, I actually think that

the better relationship I can be in with myself, the better relationship I can be with everybody else.

Absolutely.

I'd hate for Dee to frame it with her partner.

They're moving in together.

They're starting a life.

I would hate for the framing to be, I, D, need to be alone.

You, my partner, need to be with other people.

So let's find some kind of compromise there because that's polarizing and actually not true at the core of things.

The truth is that D and her partner are both full human beings, each of whom needs time alone and time with other people.

So how is that going to be navigated?

Right.

Yeah.

Both.

Yeah.

They both have to come

from their polarized ends towards the middle.

I mean, my therapist just said, this is like such a beautiful thing to be aware of.

It's like, if you are polarized on an issue or personality traits or whatever, she said the most beautiful thing.

She said, yeah, but you're covering so much ground.

It's such a wide breadth.

to be able to work within.

Tell me what she meant.

She meant one person is looking closely to the ground and the other person is up high and can see the whole landscape.

So both are covering ground in different ways.

Yeah.

So that you're just, the surface area is wider.

You're capable of more.

And so it doesn't mean one person's right or wrong.

It's good.

Yeah.

So when we get into any disagreement around stuff, I think it's really beautiful and hard when you want to be right about stuff.

you want the direction to go in your way but being on separate ends of certain issues or personalities it's so helpful.

It is.

It's so helpful to be like, well, I understand you're like this and I understand you're like this.

How are we going to, and you don't have to meet in the middle.

That's the thing about relationships that I think there isn't a meeting in the middle.

No.

That is not compromise.

No, meeting in the middle is nobody gets what they need.

Exactly.

It's both.

So it's like, if we could just add on to that Rilke quote, because, you know, I'm just always trying to improve upon Rilki.

That's a smart endeavor.

Yeah.

It's like, is the greatest form of love just to protect each other's solitude or is it to protect each other's need for solitude and each other's need for connection?

Yeah.

Right.

That's really good.

It's so smart of Dee and her boyfriend to be thinking about this stuff

now.

But because when you're moving in together, you talk through how you're going to share space, but you don't talk about how you're going to share time.

And so wouldn't it be cool for Dee and her partner to sit down and be like, okay, we we both need, just like you're going to be like, all right, I'm messy in the bathroom and you're not, whatever.

We are going to need time

for ourselves and we're going to need social time.

So how are we going to work that?

And not even frame it as it's one thing you need and the other thing that he needs, but we both need these things.

How are we going to make them both real?

Totally.

So good.

We should be marriage counselors.

This is fun.

I know.

Good times.

What if we have a whole podcast, just you and me?

No offense, Cissy,

because it's a marriage thing.

Although she's pretty in our marriage.

I know she knows more about our marriage than we do.

Also, there's that little detail of we have no training or credentials or degrees.

Well, you can be the non-therapist podcast.

Check our work is all we're saying.

Check our work.

We don't know what the hell we're talking about.

When my book, when my first book, Carry On Warrior, was allowed to be in Christian bookstores.

It would all had a big sticker on it that would say, read with discernment.

Oh my God.

I always thought, so all the other books in here, you don't have to read with discernment.

Isn't that what you're supposed to do with a book?

Anyway, what we're saying is listen with discernment.

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Let's hear from Steve.

Hi, this is Steve.

The question that I would love for you to discuss is what is healthy,

whether you want to call it arguments, disagreements, and what does that look like?

What are the ways that, if you're in a marriage or engagement or relationship, when you get into a disagreement, what are some ways to make sure that you both move through any disagreement or argument?

And how do you close that in a healthy way so it doesn't continue to linger and both parties feel heard.

And then by the end of it, you can just both move on as opposed to what I experienced is that lingering set or taking things too personal or no one budging on the disagreement or argument, no matter how big or small.

So yeah, what's healthy arguing?

What does that look like?

And then also, what are ways to make sure that you both are complete with the conversation?

So appreciate you all.

Okay, Steve, we are laughing because I feel like Steve and I are similar

in this.

Okay, Steve, hear me out.

I really like conflict because it makes me feel like we're all, oh, we're traveling down this road together.

We have come across something that is an opportunity to

know each other better, to like do life better together, to serve each other better.

We've come across a snag

that we can untangle.

And that's exciting to me.

Yeah.

Right.

I'm starting to understand that a little bit more.

It's like a pothole down that road.

And you're like, we can go through this pothole and we're going to come out and the car is going to be okay.

I'm scared of the pothole is going to give our car a flat tire.

Right.

And I feel like you only have a conflict when you already have a flat tire.

That's what's happening.

If you didn't already have a flat tire, you wouldn't be having a conflict.

The conflict is proof of flat flat tire.

And the conversation is repairing the wheel so that you can roll or whatever.

You can keep going.

So keep going.

Okay.

So you're saying that before the conflict happens, I just want to be clear here.

The non-confrontational person is gaslighting the conversation, the other person into saying, we don't have a flat tire.

And you are saying, we have a flat tire.

I hear the thud.

I hear the thud.

I hear the thud.

And I'm like, no, there's no flat tire.

Right.

Okay.

Okay.

Go on.

Yeah.

And then that's just, well, then we're just going to crash eventually, right?

Yeah.

It's just going to, right?

Could have ruined the hubcap, like all these bad things.

Yeah.

But what Steve is saying is he would like,

he's open to healthy conflict, but he just wants to make sure that there's progress at the end of the conflict that you're both learning from.

Okay.

So we have this thing that drives Abby batshit.

Okay.

When I feel a conflict

ending, when I feel like we're coming to some kind of resolution, what is the thing that I always say?

You say, okay, so where we will go from here is

dot, dot, dot.

So where we're moving on from here is basically that means let's figure out what we have learned from this conflict

and what we're both agreeing we're going to do differently.

Like, in other words, what's the gift of it?

Yeah.

That we now will move into

the next part of it to make the conflict worth it.

Yes.

Okay.

That requires figuring out what the conflict is really about.

That's the thing that I think we can be varsity level at,

that

we'll like be bickering or fighting about something.

And instantly,

one of us will say, okay, what's the truthiest truth of this?

Let's go through an example.

Oh, okay.

I'm going to say a sentence and it's just get through the first sentence of it.

Okay.

Cause this is truly our life.

But okay.

Last month,

we grabbed our kombucha and we jumped into our golf cart to drive to our yoga nidra class.

Just

so embarrassing.

We are lesbians who now live near LA.

That is just our life.

It's just

what we do.

Here's what happened.

For some reason, I was driving the golf cart.

Now,

we have decided a long time ago

that I was not going to drive anymore.

We never discussed it.

I decided by myself because,

well, pod squad, you decide why.

We don't know if I am a bad driver or if Abby is just so nervous that I'm going to be a bad driver that her anxiety makes me a bad driver.

Okay.

So we get into the golf cart and immediately Abby just makes some noises that I feel like she's panicking already, that I'm going to hit something, that I'm going to back into something.

Now, in her defense, I do often back into things or hit things.

Okay.

I don't know.

And, you know, now we're in a golf cart.

So there's no airbags, no seatbelts.

Right.

Heightened.

There's a heightened fear of things possibly going wrong.

But what comes first, I ask?

Is it

the mistake, or does the anxiety of the other person

kind of make the mistake happen because I feel so nervous and rigid by your intensity or your fear that I'm going to do something wrong yeah so here's what happens pot squad so she's already making these noises and so I'm already heightened before you go on I just want to know from you were the noises warranted

I

do not think so.

I mean, I didn't hit anything, right?

No, but you were going to hit the curb.

Well, curbs, I mean, so what?

That's what curbs are for.

Not in a golf cart that the wheels will pop.

Okay, but I just feel like curbs are a generous suggestion to not keep going and hit anybody on the side of the road.

Okay.

Curbs are not.

Absolutely not.

No.

So these are not bumper curbs.

These are not like, hit me.

Then you know you've gone too far.

No problem.

That's how I think about curbs.

No, the goal in driving any vehicle is to never, not one time hit anything.

Because

you could cause damage to yourself, to something else, to a person.

Yeah, I know we're not supposed to hit people.

I am clear, which is what made the next moment

so unfortunate.

Oh, God.

Okay.

So I'm.

I think this might be the issue.

Is that you think it's totally okay to hit something?

No.

It's not.

It's not.

That's not the issue.

Like, are you sure?

Let me think about it.

Is that true?

I don't think it's ideal to hit things.

I do not.

Okay.

In order to accept myself as a human being who can't stop hitting things, I have made a hierarchy of things that are better to hit than others.

Yes.

All right.

Listen, can we just go back to the story?

You're making me nervous again.

I'm not making you nervous.

You are.

You are making yourself nervous based on the answers of what you're saying out loud into the microphone to millions of people?

You're divulging something.

And I think that's what's making you nervous.

I think maybe there's two types of people, and those two types of people feel differently about curbs.

Okay.

Okay.

So we're driving in the golf cart, and I'm a little bit nervous because of all the noises.

And what happens next

is that suddenly

what I would describe as coming to, I come to,

and there is a man, and he is screaming at me.

That's all I see is a man and a dog and the man is screaming at me in a very scary, aggressive man voice.

And because he's only like a foot from my face.

Okay.

So what has happened is that I have driven into a crosswalk.

This is completely my fault.

I have driven into a crosswalk that I was supposed to stop at and the man and the dog are there and he is screaming at me.

So what do I do when someone yells at me?

Start laughing.

Right.

So I just start laughing at the man, man, which makes me look like I don't care about this situation.

I do.

I'm just very scared.

There's also a dog.

The dog was like inches away from our golf cart.

Okay.

So the whole situation is very upsetting.

So then

I keep driving and I can't stop laughing.

I can't stop laughing.

Abby is furious.

I mean, I'm not furious.

I'm just like, what the fuck just happened?

How does that even happen?

It was a person walking across.

And I think that what you just said, like you dissociate when you're experiencing anxiety.

Right.

So then we park the cart and then I get out of the cart and start walking.

And then I almost get hit by a car.

Yeah.

I just walk into the street and then tell them what happened when we walk into the yoga studio.

Oh my God.

So we're walking into the yoga studio and Glennon's,

evidently, she has called this person.

her yoga nemesis.

I have a nemesis at my yoga studio.

It's this guy

who wears wears no shirt and makes lots of noises.

And evidently, it's very off-putting to Glenna.

He makes so much noise.

He's always talking when people are trying to be quiet.

He's always just taking up all of the audible space in the room.

Yep.

And of course, he's the only man, and the rest of people are women.

And it just, I have a very layered response to this man.

So we're walking in my nemesis.

So we're walking in,

and he's walking out as we're walking into the doorway.

So it's kind of like side-to-side side bodies.

She looks over her shoulder as she and him are literally right next to each other.

And she looks to me and she goes, great.

My nemesis is here.

I was like three inches from his head.

And I was like, oh my God.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That was outside voices.

That wasn't inside voices.

That came out of your mouth and he could for sure hear it.

So, Steve, let's get back to Steve.

Oh, yeah.

What we are saying, Steve, is we got home, we did a yoga class after that.

We got back home, Abby drove the golf cart, yeah, and we sat down on the couch to try to talk about this thing that had happened.

Nope, we waited till the next day.

We waited till the next day because we just couldn't even unpack it.

Here are some

rules I have learned about arguing with Abby.

Arguing with Abby is very frustrating because Abby is always on the high road during an argument.

When Abby starts, she avoids conflict.

She doesn't like it.

I'm getting better at that though.

Right.

But once she is inevitably having it, she is truly committed to her main goal.

is to actually figure out how I'm feeling, to express how she's feeling, and to come to some sort of solution

that works for our relationship.

This is crazy to me.

Okay.

I come into a conflict with virtual armor,

weapons.

I am a lawyer who is protecting her life.

That is how I feel.

I go into it like I have to prove why I'm not crazy.

I have to make a case for why the way I feel is okay.

Included in that case has to be many things that she has done wrong that she will have to face so that she can understand.

And I don't think it's about being right and wrong.

I think it's about me proving that I'm not crazy.

Yeah.

A little bit about being right.

Well, yeah, rightness has to do with not being crazy.

Not being crazy.

Yeah.

So

I have over time had to begin to understand

that.

So Abby sat me down one time and she said, I need you to understand that if you continue to have your goal be to be right, you're going to win forever.

We don't even need to have these arguments.

You're the lawyer.

You're going to win.

So you win forever.

Is that

good enough for you?

And I was like, oh my God,

I

have to actually do conflict.

I have to come into conflict and actually stay soft and open and have the goal not be that everyone here agrees at the end that my position was legitimate and correct and that they were wrong and we move on from there

that i actually have to be soft and open and have the goal of understanding abby

and

seeing things from her point of view instead of mine that like we're a team oh that was it when you said we're on the same team,

she looked at me during an argument, interrupted me, and said, you do understand that we're on the same team here.

And that sounds very simple, but I did not understand that.

I did not.

I know, I know.

I thought

we were showing up at the soccer game and there was your team and there was my team.

And whoever was better

was going to win.

And that is why we always lost.

Everybody lost all the time.

Yep.

Because even when I won, logistically, I walked away feeling like a big asshole, like complete shit.

And you walked away feeling like shit because you weren't hurt.

So

figuring out what the fight is actually about is part of that.

And we discovered that what that fight was about is the fact that when I feel criticized or I am in a situation that makes me anxious, I completely dissociate.

I am not able.

to stay present.

Yeah.

I'm working on that in therapy.

And you

maybe,

what would you say would be your, I won't want to say is your part.

What would you say was your part?

What was that argument about for you?

That

I'm judgmental about the way that you choose to drive.

Okay.

All right, Steve.

Maybe that wasn't the best.

What?

argument to pick.

No, I do think it's a good one though.

And to kind of go more to the truthier truth,

our work with IFS language has really transformed our

ability to not take things so personally.

Because when you talk about parts of yourself, then you're not capable of taking on the shame of being all things.

When fear comes up, I'm not all fear.

A part of me was having fear.

I'm not all anxiety.

A part of me was experiencing anxiety.

And so I think one of the most important elements, not only with disagreements or arguments in a relationship, is learning how to soothe yourself and to regulate your nervous system.

Yes, that's so great.

And that, to me, when we get back to it all, of the why, why did you say this or why did you do this or whatever,

I can always trace it right back to me being dysregulated for some reason.

And so it also allows me to become more aware of my own responsibility in creating the disagreement or the fight or the behavior that leads to a fight or disagreement.

Oftentimes we forget how to own the responsibility of things and apologize in a real way, right?

And so I think that that's also been really transformative for me as a person who gets really embarrassed about being wrong or gets really embarrassed about making a mistake, that.

the IFS language, the ability to trace it back to some sort of dysregulated nervous system allows me to be like, wow, I was really dysregulated.

And that made me say this thing because I was embarrassed.

And I don't want to do that.

And I'm really sorry.

So that's a good tip then, as I feel when I'm thinking you're talking, I'm thinking, we've never really had a very healthy conflict when we do it when we're both in the heat of the moment.

No.

Which is why the whole don't go to bed angry is the worst advice ever.

Yeah.

Really.

Saying this was a bad moment or this was a hard moment or a conflict we need to talk about.

And do you think we should talk about it tomorrow?

We recently had a hard time and we just decided we're too heightened to even talk about this tonight.

Let's come together and talk about this tomorrow morning.

Yep.

And that was so helpful because it's like half of the work in a conflict between two people is the work that each individual does in themselves before they get together to discuss the conflict.

Totally.

So you can trust each other to do the regulation stuff that you need to do to come back with a problem, yes, but with the right goal

and

your best self.

And it takes a considerable amount of trust because I didn't have a lot of this trust before,

but taking that space the other night was revolutionary for me because I am the person who wants to fix it right away because I can't let you leave my site because I don't know what you're going to think.

and how you're going to want to repair this.

I need to be a part of the repair.

And two people really do need to get their nervous systems to regulate before you can start the conversation of repair, because otherwise you're just going to keep going in this vicious cycle or the dance, as the Gottmans would say.

I don't know.

Taking that space

and then coming back and then learning that you were also thinking about it and also wanting to work towards a common outcome.

There's something about that that was so beautiful.

And the more we can do that, the more that I will trust that you have our relationship as the priority.

That's what it is.

It's the relationship as the priority.

And that was new to me.

Yeah.

For me, if you're separating into different corners,

see, even that language.

Yeah.

Even that language.

Everyone's going to their corner

before you fight.

No.

If you're taking space, it is clearly so each person can develop the best case possible to win.

Right.

And that's probably one of the reasons you're afraid to give me space too.

Yeah.

It's like, oh, God, her argument's going to get even better and like more vicious.

But

if you separate with the trust that each person is going there to bring their best self because you have this common shared goal, which is how are we going to use this conflict to understand each other better to get closer.

But Steve, I love that you're thinking this way.

And I think it would be very smart to sit down and before you have the conflict, not when you're in the conflict, talk about conflict.

Talk about what are your guidelines?

Are you going to be the type of couple that doesn't bring in generalizations?

You always this, you never this, that doesn't bring in the past to every single argument, that really tries to decide: okay, we're arguing about the toothpaste.

What is this really about?

This is about boundaries, this is about respect, this is about acknowledgement.

Maybe that's something that you guys do.

You say, each time we have a conflict, let's try to figure out what it's really about.

Let's stick to a few ground rules.

And at the end, let's decide where we're moving on from here together.

If anything,

conflict ending in a new shared understanding

is everything.

Otherwise, what's the point?

Yeah, a new shared understanding.

But

I would say that maybe this might be Steve and yours

struggle in that when something is talked about.

You and Steve might be of the mind that this is no longer an issue and we shall never talk about this again.

We won't ever come across this problem again because we've talked about it.

And of course, you won't.

But what is the thing?

In all relationships, the same problems keep rounding and rounding and rounding and rounding.

So it's only like three things for your whole life.

Exactly.

So it's like, I think it's a fallacy to think if we talk about it and repair it, it will never happen again.

I think that that's naive.

So I don't know.

I think it's about trying to understand each other more.

That's what argument is about.

It's like, oh, wow.

And the more we argue, the more I understand you,

the more then I'm capable of trying to relate and interact so that I don't trigger you or you don't trigger me.

The understanding and the knowing is what this is all about.

To know me

is what I hope the goal is.

And for me, my goal is to know you so well so that I'm not bringing things out that is upsetting.

That's good.

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Okay, let's hear from Sydney.

My name is Sydney, and I am calling with a big question because I'm struggling with something I have never had to deal with before.

And that is a really close friend doing something that I strongly disagree in, and I know is sabotaging her and a lot of people around her.

However, confronting her is one of the hardest things I've ever had to do.

And I want to do it in a loving way, but I don't want to lose her as a friend at the same time because good friends are really valuable, especially when you're in your mid-20s and as you get older.

So how do you confront a friend on something that you know they're doing that is hurting them?

Thanks.

This is going to be a hard one for me.

Just saying.

It's interesting to hear this question from a 25-year-old's perspective and think about how I think about it now as an almost 50-year-old.

And I know that I

know that for much of my life, I really believed that I understood what people were doing that was harmful for them or not harmful for them.

And

I think we don't really know that is how I think now.

I don't know that that's right or wrong.

The only thing that we can know is what's hurting us or what's harming us.

You, Sydney, cannot actually know

why your friend is doing what she's doing or what it's serving in her life or what kind of survival strategy she's employing or where she is in her spirituality or what she has in her past or what part of her journey she's on.

But what it seems like you do know is what is hurting you.

The only clean way I know

to confront, I'm saying that in with air quotes, someone else's behavior is to fully own

that it's about you.

For example,

I

can't

be around you anymore because I am a person who, when I see this happen, I feel

upset, a lack of control.

I am sensitive to

unkindness.

I am a person who is threatened by drug and alcohol use, so I can't be around it.

I, I, I, it is every time we're making a decision about someone else's behavior, I think it's very important that we frame it as this is about me, because it is.

No one's behavior is subjectively right or wrong or good or bad.

I mean, it feels like that, no.

But

I think there's a double-edged approach to, I mean, Abby knows that it is very important to me to not compromise my own mental health or comfort, really, by being around people who trigger me for certain reasons.

So I actually end up doing this a lot.

But

I have learned that that is about me and that I need to take responsibility for.

So it is important to me when everyone's in a room that everyone is heard.

When someone is taking up all the space in the room or

being extremely loud or cutting people off, it is important to me to not be around that, but it is also important to me to express it in a way that is about me.

I am a person who feels major anxiety when I feel like people aren't being heard.

And so I have to remove myself from this situation because of my own

reactions.

The other person gets to decide over time if that's something that isn't working for them.

But I don't get to say to them, this isn't working for you, even if I secretly believe that.

All I get to say is, this isn't working for me.

That's good.

And, you know, this is hard because we don't know exactly what they're dealing with here.

So I want to just throw a caveat in in here is if they are a danger to themselves, like a real danger.

Sure.

You know, we have to be mindful of that in this conversation.

But it sounds a little bit like, you know, drugs or alcohol might be involved.

Just assuming here, I'm just throwing something out.

And I know that, you know, interventions work for some people and they don't work for others.

I am generally of the belief that people are just going to people.

And

having been one of those people, that I was hurting myself for a long time.

And I got confronted by a lot of friends.

And it was always of the,

you need to stop doing this.

You're hurting yourself.

All of this stuff.

And none of it ever really rang true to me.

Any of those kind of confrontations or interventions.

And while listening to you talk about it, that feels truer to me than those.

I also think that people are just going to be themselves and they're just going to keep doing what they need to do until they stop.

And so we just have to make decisions on who we have in our lives.

And obviously, I understand having good friends is really important to people.

People will only change when the thing that they're doing hurts them more than helps them.

And we actually don't know.

I mean, I was starving myself for two decades.

Eating disorder, the amount of people who could have said to me, you are hurting yourself, and did over time.

But what they didn't know was that that was a survival strategy for me.

I was saving myself.

And I was not going to

stop.

You know, I was taught.

for a very long time by my family, by culture, that getting bigger threatens my attachment, threatens my validity, threatens my attractiveness, my currency in the world.

And so

a million people saying you're hurting yourself, I couldn't even understand that until I understood it.

And that was not because anybody else told me

that.

It was so everybody's on a journey and the thing that they are doing that you think is hurting them could be the way they're staying alive.

That's right.

So all you get to do is decide what hurts you.

Yeah.

So Sydney, if this person's behavior is hurting you, then number one, you get to decide whether you're going to be around it or not.

That is your right.

That is your power.

And you have to do that for the rest of your life.

Yep.

And

it's yours.

You get to say, I can't be around this anymore because it hurts my heart, because I'm sensitive to this or that, because I'm up to.

I don't want to.

I don't want to because it offends my integrity.

Whatever is your reason.

You could just say, I don't want to be around this.

Yeah, that's good enough.

And I love you so much.

And it's hard for me, and I can't do it anymore.

All we can do, all of that AA shit, like all we can do is keep our side of the street clean.

You cannot go on to other someone else's side of the street and clean up for them.

It never has ended well one time.

Okay, let's end with Lexi.

Hi, this is Lexi.

God bless Abby, but I don't understand why she keeps saying woof at the end of something like crazy or wonderful.

I keep hearing her say that, and I just don't, I don't know why.

I was hoping she could explain it.

Why?

So maybe I could incorporate it into my vocabulary when appropriate.

Thank you.

Woof.

Oh, Lexi.

Oh my God, I kind of feel embarrassed.

I don't really ever feel embarrassed.

I do say woof.

Like, to me,

to this millennial slash gen

what are you

no you're you're millennial you're millennial i don't know you are but to me it's like my expression of that

is so

good oh it's like oh but i don't want to say oh because i do enough of that shit on this podcast so i've incorporated woof

And pod squad, if you knew, I mean, every once in a while we get a message that says, could Glennon just please stop saying right, right?

And what they don't know is 58 rights have already been cut

from that episode.

I say right all the time because I'm trying to ask if I'm making any sense.

Right.

I know.

You say woof because you're celebrating what someone has just did.

It's so you.

But it's also like, it's my equivalent to wow, but I feel like I say that so much that I just needed to like diversify a little and add something that's just mine.

I also love my dogs.

So it's like, woof.

Is a shout out to honey and Hattie for incorporating them.

It's a, it's all positive.

It's with all love.

But Lex, Lexi, woof.

Pod Spud, we love you.

We'll see you back here next time.

Woof.

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We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wombach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

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