Post Diagnosis: Glennon & Abby Reflect and Decide What Needs to Change

Speaker 1 One thing I love about our listeners is how industrious all of you are. The stories we hear about you guys going off on your own and starting your own ventures like we did, it's truly inspiring.

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Speaker 1 Instead of juggling separate tools for accounting here, HR there, inventory somewhere else, NetSuite pulls everything into one seamless platform.

Speaker 1 That means you finally have one source of truth, real visibility, real control, and the power to make smarter decisions faster.

Speaker 1 With real-time data and forecasting, you're not just reacting to what already happened, you're planning for what's next.

Speaker 1 And whether your company is bringing in a few million or hundreds of millions, NetSuite scales with you.

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Speaker 2 Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Can we? It's just you and me, babe.

Speaker 1 Can we do hard things by ourselves? Um, do you want to scoop a little?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't. I feel fine.
My positioning. Okay.
Thank you. But we will, in fact, talk about control and codependency during this episode.
So I do think that was a good start, right?

Speaker 1 Yes, it is. And I'm always just trying to deal with the tech and the proper

Speaker 1 look of the podcast. These things are, you know, we all have our strengths and we all do parts for this podcast.
And that's one thing that I bring to the table.

Speaker 2 Okay, but I am noting that recently we were in bed watching TV and you looked at how I was laying and you said,

Speaker 2 babe, you are not comfortable.

Speaker 1 You weren't.

Speaker 2 And then you had me sit up and you rearranged all the pillows. Okay, listen.

Speaker 2 So I'm just saying, I think that was precious, but it's not just about tech because there was no tech in our bed and you were still arranging my bodily self.

Speaker 1 No, okay, I hear what you're saying. And I understand that this is codependency.
The thing that I was doing earlier was my job. Okay.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 2 you

Speaker 1 have this weird thing.

Speaker 1 that not a lot of people, I think, have. When you are uncomfortable,

Speaker 1 you have a belief that this is now the way you live. Right.
I don't think that there's something in your brain. I don't know.

Speaker 1 It's interesting to me because like you were sitting on the bed and your head was like this and you were like, you were just, you were laying in the most uncomfortable position. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And so I just was like, honey, I don't think you're comfortable.

Speaker 2 I wonder what that's about. I hear what you're saying and it's true.
It's like.

Speaker 2 My mom is like this too. And it's like our adaptability is ridiculous.
If I go into a room and there's no lights on, it's just dark and I look for one second for the lights and I don't see it.

Speaker 2 I just will sit in the room and

Speaker 1 try

Speaker 2 to let my eyes adjust. I'll find a way to read a book.
I'll just sit in the dark. Yeah.
And it drives you baddie.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 I'm an optimizer. Unfortunately, I think that that's probably one of my strengths and one of my biggest weaknesses.

Speaker 1 But I always think that there's a way that we can get a little bit more comfortable, a way we can get a a little bit more fun, a way we can get a little bit more joy out of life

Speaker 1 and sitting uncomfortable in a bed that you're watching TV, like that should be the moment, the time in life when you're like, oh, this is where I get to really get cozy and comfy.

Speaker 1 And somebody who's obsessed with coziness, it's baffling to me how often I look at you and you're in these weird positions that I have to remind you, your body's allowed to be as comfortable as it possibly can be right now.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I know I'm always overthinking things, but I do wonder if over time this will get better for me.

Speaker 2 If this is part of a lack of embodiment and checking in with your own body and having agency over your own situation, yeah, that would be, you know, no matter what position my body is in, if I'm just in my head, I don't even notice.

Speaker 2 So I'm like contorted, and you're, you look at me and you're like, how could this be happening? And I'm not even noticing.

Speaker 1 It makes sense, though, for somebody who has been in a restrictive mode for their entire adult life,

Speaker 1 that might feel like that's supposed to be the way it feels. Like this uncomfortable position, I can imagine that restriction is a kind of uncomfort in your body.

Speaker 1 And so it's maybe really hard to differentiate what can be comfortable. And what I'm saying is you can always be comfortable.
Yes.

Speaker 2 Okay, yes, I agree with you.

Speaker 2 And I think it's interesting when you think about the way our bodies are out in the world or even in our own homes, the way we arrange ourselves says about how we actually feel we can be safe in the world.

Speaker 2 Oh, interesting. Like

Speaker 2 you,

Speaker 2 I sometimes look at you when we are out or we are, and I am like, I am baffled. Okay, I am equally baffled by your.

Speaker 2 way of being in the world where you just are spread out and you are just comfortable in any situation and your body is doing whatever the hell you feel like it should do and wants to do.

Speaker 2 And your legs are not crossed, and you're, you're not tucked in on yourself, and you're like, you're man spreading.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 I am always like, and I think, is this, I don't know if it's changing a little bit, but I tend to be curled up tight, legs crossed, sometimes my arms crossed. Like

Speaker 2 it makes me feel

Speaker 2 something.

Speaker 2 Safe?

Speaker 1 Is it a false sense of safety? Is that like...

Speaker 2 Well, I don't know. I mean, I will say when I look at you and how you sit, I'm like a little bit alarmed.
Are you embarrassed? No, no, not at all.

Speaker 1 Are you like, how could she be taking up so much space?

Speaker 2 No, I'm more embarrassed when I see myself not doing that.

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 1 that's what the alarm is.

Speaker 2 Well, I feel like, look at you. You're not doing anything that you say you believe.
Your body is not.

Speaker 2 you look like you're trying to take up the least amount of space. You look like you're protecting yourself.
You look like you're shrinking. You look like it doesn't look

Speaker 2 how I want to feel.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 So anyway, it's just interesting.

Speaker 1 No, yeah, I think that I do understand

Speaker 1 that I am codependent with you.

Speaker 1 I get it.

Speaker 1 And do you want me to stop telling you when I see you uncomfortable? Should I stop telling you?

Speaker 2 You know how in in couples,

Speaker 2 basically, I just say in couples, I don't fucking know. In our coupledom,

Speaker 2 I feel like there's things that each other does, and we talk about this a lot, that 90% of the time,

Speaker 2 it feels like precious and like love and cool.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then 10% of the time,

Speaker 2 it makes me homicidal. Yeah.
And it's hard to know which time it's going to be. When it's coming.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 But then I feel scared to say, stop doing that because actually, a lot of the time I like to know that I'm uncomfortable and have it be fixed.

Speaker 1 So is there a part of you that gets so this 10%, I'm curious about this 10%.

Speaker 1 Is there a part of you that gets frustrated or mad at me for noticing this thing about you that you should have noticed?

Speaker 2 No, I just think it's about being controlled.

Speaker 1 I don't like to be controlled.

Speaker 2 I don't like my body to be

Speaker 2 monitored, gotta change from the outside.

Speaker 1 This is problematic in a lesbian relationship, especially ours.

Speaker 1 Because I am just, I guess, this is my biggest problem. I am forever monitoring you, not because I want to change you, but I want to make your life better.

Speaker 1 I feel like it's why I always put on the planet:

Speaker 1 make

Speaker 1 you

Speaker 1 have a little bit more ease.

Speaker 1 And like you said, 90%, that's sweet, and 10%, that's so annoying. So, how can we

Speaker 1 fix this in a way that you have 0%

Speaker 1 homicidal feelings towards me?

Speaker 1 And we can grow this to 100%.

Speaker 1 Is the fix of this, honestly, and I really want to know the answer to this, is to just let you

Speaker 2 be uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think you might need to start allowing me to accept the consequences of my own actions.

Speaker 2 So like, for example,

Speaker 2 I also think things about me

Speaker 2 bother you more than they bother. Like, for example, Lauren and Allison are producers, and their job is to tell me if I'm sitting in a way that is not good for audio.
But they never do.

Speaker 2 So, I think they think I'm good. I think you're more worried about it

Speaker 2 than anyone else. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I think

Speaker 2 it might be a good, because I'm working on this with other people, letting people just make their own decisions and then if they're uncomfortable that's their choice totally I hear that and we'll just see then we'll see we'll see if they say anything

Speaker 1 because the reason why they haven't said anything up until now is because I'm arranging our little set Lauren and Allison tell us the truth in the chat Are you secretly concerned a lot about my audio, but you don't want to say anything?

Speaker 1 And it's not just your audio. It's the chair, the way the chair is positioned.
It's the camera angle. It's making sure your earphones are in.
There's stuff that I do.

Speaker 1 Like you do so much other stuff that I don't pay attention to. And I'm like, thank you so much.

Speaker 2 Okay. So is it about worthiness? Do you think you're earning your worthiness in our work and our relationship by arranging me?

Speaker 1 No, I am doing my job. Okay.
Like I think of it as my job. The way that you arrange.

Speaker 2 The producers are saying they are not concerned about my spacing or my body or my audio.

Speaker 1 Because I am also arranging this thing before you get here.

Speaker 1 I hear you, and I will let you live.

Speaker 2 Okay. Lauren says this.
I occasionally say something, but often Abby does take care of things before I can.

Speaker 2 So what

Speaker 2 Lauren is saying is that because you do your job,

Speaker 2 she doesn't have to say anything. So I think that's one for you.

Speaker 2 One tick for your.

Speaker 1 This is not who's winning here. Honestly, the most important thing i want to come across here is

Speaker 1 i want to make this a beautiful this is difficult having a marriage and a working relationship and trying to figure out the dynamics of all of that it's very complicated it has like complex

Speaker 1 things that are always at play

Speaker 1 I know if you're annoyed at me before we jump on this podcast and I'm like, oh God, like I got to really make sure that I don't push her buttons, you know, like there's just like, it's a lot.

Speaker 2 Well, it is a very interesting jumping off point

Speaker 2 having to do with our efforts, thinking it's our job to make the people that we love more comfortable

Speaker 2 and the challenges that arise from that belief.

Speaker 1 I know that it's not my job to make you more comfortable. I want to make you more comfortable.
Right. Like, I really,

Speaker 1 I do think that that is part of partnership is trying to make life a little bit better

Speaker 1 because you exist in the world of your partner.

Speaker 2 I know. And so

Speaker 2 I have always believed that about the people that I love. And so

Speaker 2 it has been an interesting journey over these last few weeks, really,

Speaker 2 because I think that I have come to terms

Speaker 2 with the idea that perhaps I need to do some work. on my own

Speaker 2 I'm saying the word codependency, but it feels like just a buzzword that is overused so let's just tell the story let's talk about pod squad today we want to talk about

Speaker 2 abby and i's reaction to an experience with sister's recent diagnosis and if you haven't listened to the last two episodes please please do

Speaker 2 really important

Speaker 2 on those two episodes amanda

Speaker 2 discussed what her experience has been being recently diagnosed with breast cancer

Speaker 2 and so as she is off taking care of business you and i are here continuing this

Speaker 2 and so we thought that it might be good for the pod squad to hear from us during this time about how we are handling all of it it's so interesting how

Speaker 2 Having this job makes us process things where we would choose to skip over it.

Speaker 1 It's forced.

Speaker 2 It's a forced processing and it's so good for us i know sometimes it makes me so upset that we have to do it truly

Speaker 2 and sometimes

Speaker 2 it feels like i mean after those two episodes we did with sister all three of us were like thank god we did this we couldn't do that conversation just amongst the three of us it's so interesting it was like too intense or something and then when we had

Speaker 2 When we were on the recording and we had Allison and Laura in there, it just felt like we could do it or something. And afterwards, you know, sister texted me and said, thank God we did that.

Speaker 2 I needed that so much. It helped me so much.

Speaker 2 But you're right. It does force us to

Speaker 2 process emotionally.

Speaker 1 One thing I love about our listeners is how industrious all of you are. The stories we hear about you guys going off on your own and starting your own ventures like we did, it's truly inspiring.

Speaker 1 It's a big part of why NetSuite came to us as a sponsor. NetSuite offers real-time data and insights for so many business owners, and by that I mean over 42,000 businesses.

Speaker 1 NetSuite offers the number one AI-powered cloud ERP. Think of it as a central nervous system for your business.

Speaker 1 Instead of juggling separate tools for accounting here, HR there, inventory somewhere else, NetSuite pulls everything into one seamless platform.

Speaker 1 That means you finally have one source of truth, real visibility, real control, and the power to make smarter decisions faster.

Speaker 1 With real-time data and forecasting, you're not just reacting to what already happened, you're planning for what's next.

Speaker 1 And whether your company is bringing in a few million or hundreds of millions, NetSuite scales with you.

Speaker 1 It helps you tackle today's challenges and chase down tomorrow's opportunities without missing a beat.

Speaker 1 Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com slash hard things.

Speaker 1 The guide is free to you at netsuite.com slash hard things,

Speaker 1 netsuite.com slash hard things.

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Speaker 2 Let's go into, there was a moment in the first podcast where

Speaker 2 I asked sister whether she was emotionally processing or how she was emotionally processing her recent diagnosis,

Speaker 2 she said to me, I'm not.

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 looked at her with great surprise and said, What do you mean? How are you not?

Speaker 2 Now, I brought this up in the last episode. I'm bringing it up again.

Speaker 2 The reason I'm bringing it up is because this moment in which sister became so upset with me for that question has illuminated something for me that I need to work on, which is that

Speaker 1 I

Speaker 2 believe in my mind

Speaker 2 that I know what's best for the people that I love.

Speaker 2 I think about what's best for them and what they should do for their greatest and highest enlightenment all day.

Speaker 2 Okay, and Pat Squad, just know that I've done some work here. And so I'm telling you what I've come to terms with over the last couple of weeks.

Speaker 2 It has come to my attention that not everyone spends all day from the time they wake up to the time they go to bed thinking about

Speaker 2 exactly what the people they love need to do to reach their truest and most beautiful life.

Speaker 2 And then in conversations with them, slyly asking questions, dropping hints, sending links, sending podcasts, sending books, doing all of these things that I think

Speaker 1 are

Speaker 1 love.

Speaker 2 But what I have learned from a couple of people in my life recently,

Speaker 2 sister and Craig,

Speaker 2 is that

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 does not feel like love,

Speaker 2 that that feels like control.

Speaker 2 I had a conversation with Tish about this right after it happened because my understanding was that sister felt like I was judging her in my, what do you mean you're not processing?

Speaker 2 Like that I was suggesting to her, you're doing this wrong and you should be doing it a different way, which would be better and more healthy, which

Speaker 2 at first for the first week, I told myself that is not what I was doing. I was just surprised because I didn't know what we were going to talk about on the podcast.

Speaker 2 Actually, that's exactly what I was doing. I was doing that.
I was like, holy shit, she's not doing this right. She's not processing.
It's going to make it worse. We need it.

Speaker 1 Okay. That's honest.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think that's what was happening.

Speaker 1 That's honest. That's the first time you've said that.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 To me.

Speaker 1 And all of our conversations since that recording. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So then I was talking to Tish about it because Tish is kind of my, I don't know,

Speaker 2 she tells me the simple truth about things. And so I said this thing about, wait, is it possible that thinking about your people and what they should do all day

Speaker 2 is not

Speaker 2 correct?

Speaker 2 And she said, well, mom,

Speaker 2 you know, I have thought a lot about somebody who's as smart as you who has an eating disorder for 30 years.

Speaker 2 must be so busy thinking about other people's problems that they don't think about their own problems. That's right in front of their face for 30 years.
God,

Speaker 2 that's what my 18-year-old says to me in the kitchen.

Speaker 1 Oh, fuck.

Speaker 1 I didn't know you've had this conversation with Dish. P.S.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I was like,

Speaker 2 what?

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 So, pod squad. What I'm saying is

Speaker 2 perhaps one of the reasons that we obsess about our people and what they should do is so we don't have to think about what we should do. Interesting.
I'm not even sure that's true.

Speaker 2 I'm just saying it sounds right.

Speaker 1 And also, I just want to add on to what Tish is

Speaker 1 saying.

Speaker 1 The second that you got sober, when you found out you were pregnant with Chase,

Speaker 1 you then proceeded to

Speaker 1 have to craft and create this new life for yourself.

Speaker 1 And a lot of that life was centered around babies that you did have control over, that you did have to make so many decisions, that you were thinking about it.

Speaker 1 So to me, it feels completely in line with how you thought adulthood went.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I did. I really did.
And now it's like this crisis time. Like it's making me not do this because this year,

Speaker 2 since the first day of this year,

Speaker 2 when your brother died and then all of these things keep happening and our kids are going through these big challenges and sister and everything is so

Speaker 2 out of control that none of my plans

Speaker 2 are working anymore or can protect anyone or

Speaker 2 everyone is completely out of my control and

Speaker 2 I think maybe always has been.

Speaker 1 Oh, there it is. But there it is.
I was wondering if you were going to get there.

Speaker 2 All right. So first of all, I have to tell you this, because as I was coming to this

Speaker 2 understanding about myself, which by the way, I have no solutions for when I figure something out like this, I know I will eventually figure out. I will work on this in therapy.

Speaker 2 I will, because I want to be free.

Speaker 2 I do want to be free. I want to be freer in my mind, in my life.

Speaker 2 And so whenever I find a place that I'm like, stuck in, I really do want to figure it out because I want to be free, but also because because one of my greatest longings in my whole life is that my people feel actually loved by me and that I'm loving in a way that is not making people feel like I'm doing it out of fear or control.

Speaker 2 So I do want to figure this out. But I'm in the part right now where I'm just like, I see the problem.
I don't have any idea what the solution is. I don't understand what people think about all day.

Speaker 2 I mean, you and I sat and I was like, can you tell me what you think about?

Speaker 2 I said to you, you don't think all day about what sister should do, what Tish should do, what Chase should do, what Emma should do, what Craig should do. You don't.

Speaker 1 Not for one second. Oh my God.
Like, I have to think through the girl's calendar and what I need to do to make their life run,

Speaker 1 but I'm not thinking because the truth is, is, and I mean this in a beautiful way, it sounds like a bad word, but I'm not trying to manipulate their life into

Speaker 1 their life. They're the ones that have to do that.
And I, what I think about during the day is, oh, I feel hungry.

Speaker 1 I wonder what I'm going to eat. And then it's like, oh, I've got a little work to do.
I got to open some mail. I got to read a book.
I got to do things.

Speaker 1 I think that the difference is if I see you uncomfortable in a moment, I'm like, you look uncomfortable. I think that you could be more comfortable.
But I'm never thinking,

Speaker 1 what could I do? What could I send Glenn in?

Speaker 1 What could I put in her life that will make her finally once and for all realize that she's uncomfortable?

Speaker 2 Oh, you're doing it in the moment. You're not plotting and scheming and strategizing all that.

Speaker 1 Yes, I'm not trying to manipulate somebody's life for them.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And the problem that you have, and I will say this because this is problematic for you.

Speaker 1 You are smarter than a lot of us.

Speaker 1 And you do have really good ideas.

Speaker 2 I do have good ideas.

Speaker 1 Really good ideas.

Speaker 2 Great ideas. You are smarter than all of them.
I'm supposed to waste them all.

Speaker 1 Yes. I am.
I'm supposed to waste them all. Yes.
Or if somebody comes to you

Speaker 1 and asks for your specific advice yeah then you get to answer and give them your your opinions well i'm gonna have to keep a folder of all of them just so i'm ready in that moment yeah because the truth is is

Speaker 1 we will never learn our own lessons we will never feel like we have our own lives That is why early on in our relationship that I felt some sense of control and I was like, oh, no, no, that feels icky to me.

Speaker 1 It feels like I'm doing this wrong. And it feels like you don't love me, or if I don't go down this path.

Speaker 1 And I also think

Speaker 1 it makes us, those who are in your life, feel insecure

Speaker 1 about our own decision-making skills.

Speaker 2 Of course, it does. Of course, it does.

Speaker 1 Here's what I will say. And we can get back to Amanda in a minute, but what I will say about the kids, because you know, they're teenage years,

Speaker 1 you are an extraordinary parent in that

Speaker 1 as they've aged, when Chase comes to you, you're not trying to manipulate him.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 1 I know that.

Speaker 1 I know that for a fact, because when I hear you talk to him, I think, oh my gosh, you're capable of non-manipulation parenting. You're capable of letting, and I hate the word.
I don't want to.

Speaker 2 Well, you said it a lot of times. So I think it's true.
I think it is a bit of manipulation.

Speaker 1 But I don't mean it in like a,

Speaker 1 I don't think it's insidious. I think that what it's coming from is this real place of love and desire for the people in your life to have beautiful lives.

Speaker 1 And just because something worked for you or in your mind could work for somebody else does not mean it will.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and it's what you told me a long time ago with you. I was trying to make a suggestion to you about a way that you could have a better life

Speaker 2 experience.

Speaker 2 And I thought I was being tricky. And you said, when you try to control me like that, it makes me sad because it makes me know you don't trust me

Speaker 2 because we only control the things we don't trust.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 I think the goal is in our relationships to continue to remind the people we love that they know what to do

Speaker 2 as opposed to to manipulate them into doing what we know they should do.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I was texting with my friend Margaret about this and she said my favorite thing about it so far, which is that I wrote her along several paragraphs about how I've discovered that maybe not everyone spends all day thinking, making plans for their people and obsessing about them.

Speaker 2 And I'm going to have to figure out what this problem of mine is.

Speaker 2 And she didn't respond for about an hour and then she responded with this sentence, which was, have you ever considered that maybe you're just Italian?

Speaker 2 I just thought that was so wonderful.

Speaker 2 Oh, you guys, it's so interesting, right? Loving people without controlling them is the final frontier for me. And maybe, maybe, oh my God.

Speaker 2 Maybe it's because a person like me has never, I'm learning in recovery from anorexia, self-love without control.

Speaker 2 Like, I've always only controlled myself. I've never trusted myself to live and breathe and make decisions and eat and sleep and whatever.
I've always just controlled the shit out of myself.

Speaker 2 And so, maybe it makes sense that this is now what I would be learning with other people.

Speaker 1 Yes,

Speaker 1 what I'm hearing you say, correct me if I'm wrong, sounds like this control part of you

Speaker 1 has become the alter ego of what you thought was your capital S self.

Speaker 1 And I think what could really be helpful, at least I think this is what my therapist would say,

Speaker 1 getting in relationship to that part of yourself, like really getting into,

Speaker 1 because for a lot of your life,

Speaker 1 The control part of yourself was keeping you alive.

Speaker 1 It was allowing you to survive your childhood, your diagnosis, the diseases, like the, you know, all of the stuff that you've had to deal with, the struggle.

Speaker 1 I don't think that the control part of you is bad. I think that it just no longer serves you.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Or other people.

Speaker 1 Right. But finding a way to get into relationship with the control part of yourself and figuring out

Speaker 1 how old that part is.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's going to really be interesting because it's all neuropathways too. When I pay attention now, now over the last couple of weeks, when I'm watching my thinking,

Speaker 2 holy shit, every minute I'm thinking about, I say to myself, sister, Craig,

Speaker 2 because all I'm doing is thinking about other people.

Speaker 2 and what they should do. Babe, I'm rereading a book about trauma right now.

Speaker 2 And I found myself yesterday, I read books as the people that I love who I'm going to give the book to.

Speaker 2 Now, I don't know if this is some level of codependency that makes me need to be hospitalized, but I thought about it last night. I was like, oh my God, because now I'm watching all this behavior.

Speaker 2 I was reading the book, thinking I'm going to give this book to two people that I love.

Speaker 2 And then I was reading paragraphs, imagining myself to be the person that I love and what epiphanies they would be having if they were reading that paragraph about their particular childhood trauma.

Speaker 1 Okay, that's

Speaker 1 insane. Hold on before you go down that road, why did you choose to do that?

Speaker 2 Because I thought, oh, this book is going to help them so much. And they're going to read this and they're going to know that

Speaker 2 what they're doing in their life is really just a result of childhood trauma. And then they're going to get free from it and then they're going to be be happy.

Speaker 1 Okay, but how does that relate to you?

Speaker 1 Why was it important for you

Speaker 1 to read this book

Speaker 1 in a way that

Speaker 1 was very specific to each of these people you wanted to give it to?

Speaker 2 I don't know that I was doing it deliberately. I think I was doing it.

Speaker 2 I think I do it

Speaker 2 unconsciously.

Speaker 2 I just do it. I do it all the time.
I read things as other people.

Speaker 1 I know, but I'm trying to figure out why do you do do that? Okay. Why?

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 That's a really good question. And I think that, okay, let's just say in the case between me and my sister,

Speaker 2 I think I have an old story that started in our childhood

Speaker 2 that I am the fuck up. Like if you're looking at like family roles, I was an addict very early.
I was a mess. I was

Speaker 2 confusing to the family. I was hurting everyone.
I was the

Speaker 2 scapegoat in terms of what experts call it, the one in the family that all the problems live inside of her.

Speaker 1 Yep, and everybody gets to blame.

Speaker 2 Yes, in the long run, the scapegoat is like a container that all the family's problems can go into. And so then everybody can point to that one and say she's the problem.

Speaker 2 But really, any child who's acting out something in the family is acting out. things that are in the family, right?

Speaker 2 So that was my role. My sister's role was hero.

Speaker 2 And we'll get into this more when sister's here, but she

Speaker 2 was perfect. Like she had to be perfect.
She had to be strong. She had to be protective.
She had to not cause any more stress for my parents. Like I'm sure a lot of people relate to that role.
So then

Speaker 2 we grow up.

Speaker 2 And this is what happens in adulthood. You

Speaker 2 think that you're living your life by free will.

Speaker 2 And then if you're lucky enough, something happens and you realize that you have work to do because you're not living by free will. You're just living in old stories, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, sister and I created this world in which our

Speaker 2 childhood roles are concretized. Like

Speaker 1 in your business life.

Speaker 2 In our business life, like I'm the creative one who can't handle details. She's the protector.
She does all the, I will stand on this wall for my sister.

Speaker 2 I will, she has like a kill list of people who have done me wrong, right?

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I think that I feel

Speaker 2 in my bones, not in my brain, I think I feel

Speaker 2 responsibility, guilt, and shame

Speaker 2 for forcing my sister into that role as a child and forever.

Speaker 2 And so since the role of hero requires so much stress,

Speaker 2 I feel responsible for lessening her stress. Got it.
Because I feel like I am the reason

Speaker 2 that she

Speaker 2 has to live in high stress. Okay.

Speaker 2 Because of my role as a kid, because of my addictions and how wild I made life for so long and how much pain I caused my family, et cetera.

Speaker 2 And then also because now we have these jobs where her literal job,

Speaker 2 which we are rearranging, by the way. But I think I have to find a way to fix this because she's doing all of this in my name.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 1 It makes sense. I feel only a little lost because that doesn't sound as true to me.
What part?

Speaker 1 It doesn't sound as true because

Speaker 1 this behavior doesn't sound like you're filling into

Speaker 1 the roles of you being fucked up and she being the protector. It sounds like you doing this controlled thing.
It sounds to me like you are trying to prove that you are not the fucked up one.

Speaker 1 Ah.

Speaker 1 I do think that there's shame and guilt and stuff attached to your old story, but to me, it is a proving mechanism that you are trying to show that you are not the fucked up one.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm always trying to prove that I'm not the fucked up one.

Speaker 1 Forevermore.

Speaker 1 Fuck. And I don't think that it's all necessarily bad.

Speaker 1 We just have to be able to acknowledge and become aware of the times where we are not in our own bodies and we are trying to live outside of ourselves.

Speaker 1 And I think that that's what this is a beautiful thing for you.

Speaker 1 And it's hard, especially because

Speaker 1 sister's diagnosis, you feel responsible for her diagnosis.

Speaker 1 And I want to give you a ton of leeway to not be able to do this all perfectly. This is the hardest thing you and your family have have ever had to go through.

Speaker 2 I think I do feel a little bit responsible for my sister's diagnosis.

Speaker 1 I know.

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Speaker 1 off.

Speaker 1 I know that we are kind of solidified in the roles that we're given in our families and it's fucked up. It's like, oh, this one is that and this one is that.

Speaker 1 And then we take those through our whole lives.

Speaker 1 We are much more complicated than the childhood roles that are given to us. You are not

Speaker 1 a fuck up

Speaker 1 by any means.

Speaker 2 It's weird weird when you are a recovering addict because I never know, and this is for sure true for me.

Speaker 2 Although I might be undoing the story now, but I feel like I never know

Speaker 2 if I was, if I'm a fuck up

Speaker 2 who's pretending to be an upstanding citizen now,

Speaker 2 or if I was always an upstanding citizen who was just pretending to be a fuck up the first half of my life. But does that even matter?

Speaker 2 No, it doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 Does that even matter? Like we, we're human beings and our lives are long, hopefully. And sometimes we have these weird circumstances that turn into addictions.

Speaker 1 Sometimes we're predisposed for addictions. Sometimes we get free of those addictions.
That doesn't mean that you're bad or good.

Speaker 1 What it means is you made certain decisions during certain parts of your life that were really unhealthy. And now you don't make those.

Speaker 1 Well, you were just saying the other day to one of our kids, the best indicator of how somebody is going to act is,

Speaker 1 what did you say?

Speaker 2 The best indicator of how someone's going to act in the future is how they've acted in the past, not what you think they're about to do. I always think,

Speaker 2 you know, this, I always feel certain that everyone is just on the brink,

Speaker 2 just

Speaker 2 so close to like enlightenment, to like the thing that is going to make them freer and happier. And I always think everyone's about to change.

Speaker 2 And that is

Speaker 2 a form of like relational terrorism. That's right.
It's like not thinking anyone is okay how they are, but there's a lot of,

Speaker 2 it's confusing to me. It's confusing to me

Speaker 2 how we're supposed to show up for our people

Speaker 2 with all of ourselves, like with everything we are. Like I am very bad at a lot of things, you know, that other people are good at.

Speaker 2 I'm really good at a lot of things, like seeing possibilities for people and really knowing my people and seeing options that other people might not see and making creative, wild decisions that really make a difference in people's lives.

Speaker 2 So I feel confused about how to bring my full self to people while not making it manipulative or

Speaker 2 controlling or,

Speaker 2 I mean, I know that I wouldn't want anyone in my life just constantly bringing me ideas for how to better myself.

Speaker 1 That would suck. Also, you're not constantly bringing people ideas how they should look better.
You're not. You're always thinking about it.
Yeah. But you're not constantly bringing it to them.

Speaker 2 I'm so ready. If anyone asks me, I will be ready.

Speaker 1 Totally.

Speaker 1 But also, What makes this even more complex and difficult to manage, which is what this is, this is a difficult thing to manage is that technically you are the boss of so many people right this is your business and sister even myself we are attached to you and this business that you've built over a couple decades and so it is confusing to know the lines between partnership you and me a business relationship and then a hierarchy of this thing that you've built with your own two hands for many, many years.

Speaker 1 And so

Speaker 1 there isn't a one size fits all answer here.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 all we can ask and all you can ask of yourself is just to become aware of things that might not be serving other people.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it makes me think of when we were telling the kids about sister's diagnosis and you and I had

Speaker 2 just

Speaker 2 sat down for hours and tried to figure out our calendar because we wanted to go there immediately and then we wanted to come back here and then we wanted to come back for the surgery we had a bunch of and then we had some stuff going on with our son at school we wanted to go get to him and and so i came upstairs with the calendar

Speaker 2 sat the girls down

Speaker 2 told them the diagnosis and then went immediately into

Speaker 2 how we were going to arrange the calendar logistics the logistics of how we were going to make it work how it was going to be fine how we were going to get get there, get back, do their things, get the things.

Speaker 2 It was all going to work out. It's here we are.
And that's the deal. And the girls, I'll never forget that.
They just looked at me and it was really quiet.

Speaker 2 And Tish goes,

Speaker 1 okay,

Speaker 2 when are we going to talk about our feelings about this?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I was like, oh my God, that's wild. I just came up here and just like logisticsed them

Speaker 2 through this as if I could skip through the fearful part of it.

Speaker 2 And I think that

Speaker 2 you know, we all have parts of ourselves that take over when we're really scared.

Speaker 2 And when I'm really scared, I think

Speaker 2 I can intellectually figure this out.

Speaker 2 I can fix this. I can sort this.

Speaker 2 I can make a lesson out of this. I can, whatever.
And so

Speaker 2 I think maybe

Speaker 2 the constant effort to

Speaker 2 control, manipulate, love,

Speaker 2 guide,

Speaker 2 whatever it is with people I love is probably just a part of myself that doesn't want to sit with the fact that I can't ever help anyone or control anyone.

Speaker 2 everyone's out of control and that's just life.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 2 there's a part of it that feels so utterly unacceptable to me that we can love people as much as we love them and then not be able to protect them and not be able to keep bad things from happening to them it feels so

Speaker 2 it feels like a glitch in the system that should not have been this way

Speaker 1 to me well let me just ask you specifically have you actually done real emotional processing of what has happened with this diagnosis.

Speaker 2 I mean, I think I feel like I'm doing a lot of processing right now.

Speaker 1 I know, but what you're talking about is, Pot Squad, what Glenn and I talk a lot about is

Speaker 1 her circling

Speaker 1 the

Speaker 1 purple, swirly, abyss darkness at times in her life. And like when you get close to it.

Speaker 1 I mean, right after the diagnosis, you were,

Speaker 1 there was no talking about it.

Speaker 2 I would not speak. I would not speak for a week.

Speaker 1 You didn't talk about it. I mean, you spoke, but you would not go.
I'd say, how are you doing? And you're like, nope.

Speaker 1 You'd literally say, nope, can't do it.

Speaker 2 I wasn't even making any big movements. I was walking around like a robot.
Like I felt as if there was

Speaker 2 a vase full of poison inside of me.

Speaker 2 And that my job was all day to not let the vase spill any poison.

Speaker 2 And the poison

Speaker 2 was the reminder

Speaker 2 that life is so

Speaker 2 precarious and that

Speaker 2 anything could happen to anyone at any time.

Speaker 2 And also separation. Like, I feel like my sister and I are one person, which is what this is all about.
I understand that we are two people.

Speaker 2 My brain knows that. Okay.
Or I don't know, actually.

Speaker 2 Some part of me knows that.

Speaker 2 And this sort of diagnosis,

Speaker 2 it's like what sister was talking about in the last one. It's just a separation.
There's nothing I can do. There's no, it's not happening to me.
It's happening to her body, which is not my body.

Speaker 1 And you can't do anything to manipulate or fix it.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 How has that gone?

Speaker 2 Does it look like it's going well?

Speaker 1 I mean, I'm just curious. I don't need there to be a solution or things you're working on or like teachings here.

Speaker 3 What has this allowed you to

Speaker 1 feel?

Speaker 2 I mean, I have felt,

Speaker 2 I have had days, as you know, in the last two weeks where I can't speak.

Speaker 2 where I feel so sad that I can't even, I mean, we went to one of our kids' soccer games and we pulled into the parking lot and you had to actually just drive me all the way home because I couldn't get out of the car instead of the soccer game.

Speaker 2 I just was too sad to walk.

Speaker 1 Sad? Okay, there's a feeling.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Let's keep going down the feelings road.

Speaker 1 What are some feelings that you've been feeling? I felt anger.

Speaker 2 I felt sadness.

Speaker 2 I felt panic.

Speaker 2 I have felt.

Speaker 2 I I think those are the three main ones.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Anger, can we talk about that for a second?

Speaker 2 I feel like anger for me is just more intellectualizing in this situation.

Speaker 1 You know what? That I honestly,

Speaker 1 this is

Speaker 1 not the first time I've thought this. Okay.
But I think that maybe you and your therapist need to talk about

Speaker 1 really

Speaker 1 being able to access your feelings before you're thinking.

Speaker 2 Oh, 100%.

Speaker 1 I think that you think you can think through any feeling.

Speaker 2 Yeah, which is why the days where I've had, where I've just been so sad that I couldn't talk about it, I think it's good. I think I have had

Speaker 2 time and access, and all of my recovery has helped me to allow myself just to be sad and not try to fix it with my brain or with any strategies or anything. Just like doing good.
It's been sad.

Speaker 1 You've been doing good.

Speaker 2 You guys.

Speaker 2 Holy shit.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 2 yeah, I just, I, first of all, I wonder if other people

Speaker 2 do what my brain does, which is

Speaker 2 scheme and plan and strategize, call it love for other people all day. They do.

Speaker 1 Of course they do. I mean, the other side of that coin or like right next to that is motherhood.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but I think what I'm realizing is that it's not motherhood. It's not, but especially as the kids grow, like I feel like I need to learn this love without control more than ever.

Speaker 2 Like I have to do it now because with adult children out in the world, if I don't figure this out, I'm going to drive myself and them nuts.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but I just need you to understand that there's nothing fucking wrong with you.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, no, I know.

Speaker 1 This is like a natural progression of like parenthood and, you know, coming off of an addiction like all of this stuff makes so much sense i don't think that there's anything wrong with me i think that there are more

Speaker 2 levels of freedom and peace and love to reach i do not think there's anything wrong with me i think that a lot of the quote problems that i identify in myself are in everyone

Speaker 2 and that

Speaker 2 One of my gifts is to see things that are keeping me stuck,

Speaker 2 dig into them,

Speaker 2 and unlock another level of freedom.

Speaker 1 And that's what you're saying here, right? That maybe you're just feeling a little stuck.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And I just think it's a beautiful thing.
I think it's a beautiful thing to take a moment, like what happened on the podcast two episodes ago. It's just a little moment.

Speaker 2 And we can just brush past that stuff. We can just be like, oh, it was just a misunderstanding, whatever.
But actually, I like to slow things down and be like, wait, what actually happened there?

Speaker 2 Something really important happened there.

Speaker 2 Inside of that moment where I said the thing and did the facial expression and looked surprised and then sister's reaction inside of that singular moment was decades,

Speaker 2 decades of like stuff that went back to when we were seven and 10. And what I like about it, what I like about that moment and I think that

Speaker 2 I feel proud of is that I didn't take that moment and think, what does this mean about her her and what she needs to do?

Speaker 2 I really took that moment and thought, wait, what does this mean about me and what I do and how I approach things and how it does or does not make the people that I love feel loved?

Speaker 1 I do think initially when we got off the pod, that recording, I think that there's this initial guilt, shame, because you know that it was upsetting to her, that you were like, you were doing both at the same time.

Speaker 1 And then you were like, why did she react that way? I didn't mean it in the way that she took it. And so I don't want people out there to think that you were just like

Speaker 1 immediately, like you were trying to figure it out. It took me days.
It took you a couple of years.

Speaker 1 Yeah, to really sit with it. And that's to me,

Speaker 1 Glenn, and I can't tell you how profoundly different that way of moving through something has changed in the last couple of years in your recovery.

Speaker 1 You are seeing relationships as a circle rather than it just being like one way.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I don't know. I just think that it's been really beautiful to watch you kind of process through this whole thing.

Speaker 1 And it's not been easy for any of us, but you have done such an extraordinarily beautiful job.

Speaker 1 You really have.

Speaker 3 Thank you.

Speaker 2 I love you and I trust you. And I will keep all of my ideas for you in a folder.
until

Speaker 2 and unless

Speaker 2 you ask for advice.

Speaker 1 I mean, the problem is, babe, your fucking ideas are really good. So

Speaker 1 I'm going to ask you, can I see your folder?

Speaker 2 Okay. All right.
Pod squad, I love you. I've got a whole folder for you too, Pod Squad,

Speaker 2 because I do love you and I have good ideas for you.

Speaker 1 She's very good and very smart and very beautiful.

Speaker 2 We'll see you next time. We can do hard things.

Speaker 2 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Speaker 2 Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

Speaker 2 To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

Speaker 2 This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

Speaker 2 We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 2 We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wombach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 2 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and this show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.

Speaker 2 I give you Tish Melton and Brittany Carlisle.

Speaker 1 I walked through fire, I came out the other side.

Speaker 1 I chased desire,

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Speaker 1 And I continue

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Speaker 1 The final destination we lack.

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Speaker 1 We'll finally find our way back home.

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Speaker 1 bring,

Speaker 1 we can do a heart pain.

Speaker 1 I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

Speaker 1 I'm not the problem,

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Speaker 1 And I continue

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Speaker 1 the best

Speaker 1 people are free,

Speaker 1 and it took some time.

Speaker 1 But I'm finally fine.

Speaker 1 Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are back.

Speaker 1 Our final destination

Speaker 1 lack.

Speaker 1 We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 1 to places they've never been.

Speaker 1 And to be loved, we need to be known.

Speaker 1 We'll finally find our way back home.

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Speaker 1 We're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

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Speaker 1 in some places they've they've never been.

Speaker 1 And to be loved, we need to belong.

Speaker 1 We'll finally find our way back home.

Speaker 1 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 1 that our lives

Speaker 1 bring,

Speaker 1 we can do hard things.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we can do hard things.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we

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