256. How to Host a Magical Gathering with Priya Parker

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Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

We are today talking about the most important thing in the world.

Is that true?

I think so.

Okay.

I'm ready for this.

Yeah, right?

I mean, on this earth, we have only a few resources and two of the most important are time and relationships.

And yet it feels like we have not figured out how to use time

to deepen or enliven, make ourselves closer to other people.

Like we have figured out how to gather people together,

spend some time and then leave,

but not use the time

to make our relationships better.

And today

we have a friend and a world-renowned expert on how to do that, on how to use our time and spaces to make our lives better by making our relationships better.

And that is, of course, Priya Parker.

Priya Parker is a conflict facilitator, strategic advisor, international speaker, and acclaimed author of The Art of Gathering, How We Meet and Why It Matters.

And she is also the host of the podcast Together Apart.

She is the creator and host of the Art of Gathering digital course about how to make meaning with and for our people.

And all of you should know that Priya is actually going to give away 50 of those courses to pod squatters.

So stay tuned.

Priya lives in Brooklyn, New York with her husband and two children.

Priya, thank you for coming on to talk about the most important thing in the world.

Thank you so much for having me.

What an introduction.

You're already modeling incredible hosting as you all do.

Yes.

Really?

I think we can actually end right there.

Okay,

we're good.

So, a cool thing, Priya, is that the reason this podcast started,

the ideation of it began when Allison, our

business partner, creative director, friend, sister, started going on walks with her friends during the pandemic.

And together they realized that they were getting together, but not talking about the most important things in their lives.

So they made a pact that they would each to the walk each week while they were socially distanced or whatever we were doing back then,

they would each bring their hard thing.

And then they would walk and they would each discuss their hard thing.

And then the walk would be over and nobody would solve each other's shit, but they would know each other better and feel less alone.

Don't you think that's a good example?

It's a perfect example

of gathering, coming out of an actual need

and the space and time forced of the pandemic, but the space and time to actually

be still enough to pause without judgment and ask, what is it that I actually am yearning for?

What am I longing for?

When I'm not in the like autopilot, manic day-to-day busyness of my life where I've already said yes to things three years ago that I don't even remember I've said yes to

because the pandemic paused all of that temporarily.

There was this little nugget.

Oh,

I long for my friends.

Oh,

which friends?

I'm not longing for all of them.

That's right.

There's some data here.

Right?

Like this pandemic,

as awful and terrifying as it was, was this forced space,

a social forced space, to actually ask, how do I want to spend my time?

And with whom?

And where is their desire?

And where is their obligation?

And where is their obligation that I choose to recommit to?

And where is their desire that I want to spark?

And part of what was so interesting in the pandemic was that because we could no longer have the default patterns of how we we talk to our friends, right?

You literally couldn't walk together side by side.

You couldn't brush shoulders.

I mean, maybe if you're part of the same pod or in the same unit, yes.

But what it basically did was it hit us over the heads with a jackhammer of like, the way you are doing things right now, you can't do.

And so, like any major disruption in our life, we are normless, right?

We are slightly in panic, but also if you stay still enough, you pause.

I love so many of your episodes in so many moments and so much of your conversation is around addiction.

And the moment we're like pausing

and listening to that knowing

and blocking out all of the distractions that are trying to get you away from that knowing and realizing, oh, there's a desire here.

And what these friends did on this walk was, oh, I'm longing for other people.

Which people?

How, given the constraints of this moment, might we spend time together?

Oh, just getting together may not feed me.

We can talk about all sorts of things.

We can spend all of our time either staying on the surface or just going through the same geographic territory of our conversations for the last 12 years.

I'm bored.

How do we do this differently?

And what they did was the first biggest step in transforming how you gather, which is they started with a need.

They started with an intention.

They started with a purpose.

Oh, I want to go walking with my friends and have depth.

How do we do that and then they found some structure to do that and then it ended this isn't forever we go part our ways afterwards so i love this example that this is the founding almost like

brick of we can do hard things

because it's kind of the whole story of just slightly tilting how we gather away from these like autopilot rote boring

formats that someone else in another time created.

And we get to choose if we want to repeat it or throw it out or keep some of it and invent anew.

Kriya Parker.

Okay.

Wow, you are good at the Venn diagram of what you're doing and what we're doing.

So

we are starting with desire.

We are going inside.

We are starting with desire.

This is what I'm hearing you say.

I desire this and this and this from these people.

Sometimes I need adventure.

Sometimes I need quiet.

What is the desire?

And we are staying fluid

because we're not creating a concrete pattern that then we have to keep forever.

We're staying in desire.

Maybe what I need this month is different than next month.

And we are doing things by design instead of default.

We are not doing things outside in just because the pattern is that we're all supposed to meet for dinner and drinks after eight o'clock.

And that that's not what we have to do anymore.

We can start from the inside and decide what we need and what we want and then act from there.

And sometimes even before desire, as you all know, desire is kind of hard to get to.

It is.

Yeah.

So sometimes it just starts from curiosity.

Yes.

What am I feeling here?

What real example, a friend of mine, who's turning 50

and he

never had a problem with birthdays and he was just feeling uncomfortable.

before like leading up to it.

And there was kind of this obligation or he in his head is like, I should probably have a birthday party, right?

Like, starts with the form.

And instead, his really

paying attention partner said,

You seem a little off.

What's going on?

And he said, You know what?

This age is really bothering me.

And she said, Why?

And he said, Because if I actually think about it, 50 is the age that when I see my peers,

they stop expanding.

Wow.

They've started to contract.

They take the less like scary job assignments and take the more cushy ones.

They start kind of making sacrifices that wilt their energy.

And I don't want to do that.

So what he decided to do, right, he named a desire and a fear and a need.

And for his 50th birthday, he only invited the people in his life who embody expansion.

And he didn't announce this like to them in advance, but in the moment he had a dinner and at the beginning of the dinner, dung his glass, ding, ding, ding.

One of the biggest mistakes we make when we gather is we under host, we under tell people what they mean to us.

We under contextualize, why are we here?

Why have I invited you?

Why do I see you?

And why have you said yes?

And he literally, it took 45 seconds and he changed the entire room.

And he said, exactly what I just told you.

I have, this has been a really hard age for me.

You all know me.

I'm not somebody who usually like gets thrown off by things.

I realize I'm really afraid of contracting.

And each of you in different ways are people who always expand.

Each of you are people who, when it could be easier to keep contracting, you go on that adventure, whatever that adventure might look like.

And as he started to talk about it to each person in the room, Paul, even though you're 73,

you take risks that I would be terrified to at 22.

Gina, even though you haven't turned 43 yet, you are somebody who, when you make decisions, the way you do, the way you chose to leave your partner, right?

Allows me to be more courageous.

And in literally 45 seconds, he tells them why they're there.

He creates meaning.

He creates a real and authentic need.

He makes them feel of use rather than used.

And he basically says, for my 50th birthday, my only wish to you is for me for the next 50 years, when I'm at any cross points, will you always blow courage my way?

Whoa.

And that is so beautiful because that isn't just making that moment.

beautiful.

It's, it's allowing each of those people to know him so well, to know what they need from him, to know, like, if it's six months from now and I'm thinking about doing that hike, you know who I should invite?

Him.

Because I know that his intention for this year and beyond is to do precisely this thing.

Yes.

It literally changes the future.

Yes, it changes the future.

That's right.

Right.

I am going to change who I think of because of this moment.

And not just for him.

Wow.

You know, say I'm a guest at that.

at that party and I leave and two years later I'm debating whether to make a big decision.

And I remember someone saw me as someone who takes risk.

Exactly.

Right.

Gathering is culture making.

We think of gathering as this like sweet thing that's full of connection, and it is.

But gathering is world creation.

Gathering is line drawing.

Gathering is literally saying, I want to create this temporary alternative world that is a mosh pit, that is a soccer match, that is a 95th birthday party on a fishing dock.

Won't you come in and be a guest in this temporary way?

I think this moment matters.

I am leaving my partner.

I am honoring my daughter as she has her period in a world that is not modeling how it is to celebrate being a woman.

And I want to create a period party for her.

Won't you come?

And yes, men are invited too because they're relationally related to this.

I'm making this up.

But literally, how we gather

is what

we create and make as as normal.

Yes.

But it's not rocket science.

It works backwards because it's like what you just said about the leaving, I've left a marriage.

Like we just gather sadly with that.

What the hell is that?

Divorce, I mean, sorry, this can be an unpopular opinion, but divorce almost 100% of the time is a decision that what was is not good enough to stay in, which means it's a new beginning, which means it's almost always a hopeful, painful, but also a brave, bold step towards the future and towards more and towards bigger and towards life.

But if we gather and cry about it just because that's what we've always done, what if we had,

like we have graduation parties, divorce is largely a graduation, why aren't we having

soulful, like it doesn't have to be frivolous, but shouldn't we gather in a milestone honoring the courage of a divorce as a new beginning?

I I wrote the art of gathering before the pandemic hit.

And

when I conducted my research for that book, I interviewed over 100 different types of gatherers from all walks of life who other people credit with disproportionately creating transformative experiences.

And one of the things I saw again and again in my research was that traditional communities, so defined by you're born and die on the same plot of earth.

You pray to the same god or goddess, right?

You eat the same food.

You believe the same food is taboo, like whatever it is.

They have

pretty beautiful, specific transformational rituals.

So in like Indonesia, in a very specific Javanese village, when there's like a tooth filing ceremony of a three-year-old, everyone bursts into tears because they understand what the symbolism is.

That has been a tradition that's been passed down generation and generation.

South India, you go to a red thread tying ceremony and a red thread is tied around a specific wrist and everyone bursts into tears.

Why?

Because they understand the symbolism of the thread.

They have images of their like last five generations of ancestors doing the same thing and their progeny doing the same thing.

As we've modernized, as we've diversified, as we've married people who are different from us, a good thing, I'm biracial, I am bi-religious, I come from a family of divorce.

I live these things very deeply.

So much of basically what happens is we've thrown the old ways out.

And we're in this kind of confused moment where we've thrown out the ritual because it has been oppressive or it has been patriarchal or it has been focused on only the eldest son or whatever it have you, and saying, We don't want that.

But actually, we need ritual

and ritual and gathering and saying this moment matters rather than saying this is a tool that is bad.

It's not bad, it's a tool.

And so, when you throw a divorce party, to take your example,

it is actually pausing and asking, what is the need now?

What is the reality now?

What is important to mark?

What is taboo and shame and what is not?

And so part of what you're able to do when you gather is it's actually literally changing what people think of as normal

and of marking the transition.

And you can do a dinner.

It doesn't have to be a party.

You could do a dinner and say, everyone at this table has made a hard choice that was the right kind of hard.

It can be a meaningful, deep celebration.

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I love what you said about the creation of culture.

I don't think that is very commonly appreciated, but just your example in your own life about your baby shower, when you think about baby showers, you know, a bunch of women who are around a woman who's about to give birth, and you get what that ritual is about, you know, surrounding, giving, helping to defray the costs of bringing someone into the world, sharing wisdom, sharing tips, sharing, this is what worked for me.

And who's there?

Just women.

So, like, that is cultural creating the wisdom being passed down, down, the kind of planned obsolescence of the father in that format, where he is not present.

And how cultural shifting it would be to be like, no, a father and a mother are sitting there to receive the wisdom as if it belongs to each of them equally

is a cultural formation moment.

Yes.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And so often we inherit these rituals, right?

Baby shower or bachelorette or graduation party, and we assume there's a specific form.

We have to do it this way.

Of course, I would only invite women, or of course, I'm going to have a baby shower, whatever.

Of course, I'm going to call it a baby shower.

And yet, I mean, to take this example very specifically, so I'll give an example of a real couple.

One of the things I kept hearing from people over and over again is like, but how do I actually do this?

Break it down for me.

I'm about to have my partner and I, heterosexual couple, my husband and I are about to have a baby.

We do not want to repeat the patterns of our parents.

We want to parent in a way that we have not seen before, which is co-parenting, which is involving the husband as a co-equal partner.

But the rituals that we have, right, are surrounding only the mother.

And that's around birth.

But what about parenting?

You mentioned earlier, I just launched a digital course.

And I, over the last two years, I've been working on this.

And they were one of our beta couples.

And so they came in and they basically were like, okay, okay, literally, how do I do this?

I don't want to do pin the diaper on the baby.

So like, what's the alternative, right?

And so they paused and asked the first lesson, which is, what is our actual need?

The biggest mistake we make when we gather is we assume the purpose is obvious and shared.

Oh, I know what a baby shower is.

I know what to do there.

I know how to like make the onesie and put the glue art on.

And they paused and she said, I realized I'm terrified of birth

and

we want to have a community where it's normal to co-parent.

And so they then said, how do we do this?

And they, again, two different needs.

They created two different gatherings.

One was a birthing ceremony and that was just with women.

So part of the art of gathering is not inviting everybody.

Yes.

Right?

It's like, not everybody should be at everything.

There's a purpose.

There's a need.

In that case, it doesn't make sense for people who haven't been through birth to be giving advice about giving birth.

It's okay to draw a line.

So they created a small ritual for her to prepare her.

And to your walk example of depth, instead of just coming and like wishing her love, which in and of itself is helpful,

they each were invited to share a story from her life

in which she already embodied the value

that will also serve her in birth.

Oh,

like you were so brave when you did this thing.

Or you, and these stories from the past, her past, that she already had everything she needed inside her, like Dorothy.

Exactly.

And we see this in you.

And we, and right, again, all of the other people, oh, these are qualities that are noticed.

Oh, this is this other facet of my friend I haven't seen, right?

It is life-giving to everyone there.

She is a vessel, but she's also a vessel for all of us, right?

It's like watering the garden of every guest.

And then separately, they started to walk through, okay, what is the actual structure?

We know a need is we don't want to parent the way our parents parented, but like, okay, so what?

Like, how do I actually do this Priya?

Like practical, practical, practical.

So in this course, literally they break down what's the structure?

What is the infrastructure?

What's the coordinating mechanism?

What's the math and the poetry to coordinate this community to have something that they haven't had before and explain to the men why they may be there.

And they invited literally what you said, they had a dinner party.

And then they had a dance party.

And at the dinner party, they invited six couples and they told them ahead of time.

They didn't spring it on them.

Please bring a story of one way you want to repeat an offer to our child and our family, one way you are parented that you love.

And one way you were parented that stops with this generation.

And that was the dinner.

Okay.

I just have to say this because I think that you said something early on around fear that I think is super interesting and something that I think a lot of us are probably thinking right now while listening.

You have to have a sense of audacity

to want to go against the norm of said party that you're trying to plan.

And that fear and vulnerability of, will people like it?

Yeah.

How do you like work through that?

I'm sure that this is a question you get a lot.

Like, cause I'm thinking, totally, I don't even like to celebrate my own birthday.

Yeah, or I'm scared to say, can you bring a dessert?

And I don't want

to say, can you bring a story about your parents?

Same girl saying,

How do we overcome that?

I'll start with it this way.

I'm a conflict resolution facilitator.

You all know that about me.

And people often say, What does conflict have to do with gathering?

And it's like, oh, honey, it has everything to do with gathering.

And one of the things, one of the rules in conflict resolution is that 90%

of what happens in an event, in a gathering, happens before anyone enters the room.

Wow.

It's the preparation.

It's the need.

It's the priming of your guests.

It's not like entering, say you come from a specific family that has always done baby showers in a certain way or always done the family reunion in a certain way and no one really always done the Passover Seder in a certain way, always done the like,

name your favorite, you know, ritual tradition in the same way.

And then springing on at that moment in this heightened moment where everyone is expecting a certain thing be like i'm actually going to do something kind of different it begins long before anyone enters the room and it's an organizing project

and so gathering doesn't start when people enter it starts at the moment of discovery in your guest's mind and you're hosting them all the way through so i'll give another example there was a journalist who called me up

and she was saying, I want to host a dinner party.

Can you art of gatheringify my dinner party?

And I was like, what do you think that means?

You know, do you put the fish knife here?

Do you put the wine glass here?

Like, and she was starting with form, right?

So many of us, we start with a form, even in our work calls, even when you think about like, what is a court proceeding?

You start with a form.

What is a board meeting?

Start with a form.

What is a like family reunion?

You start with a form in our head.

And like, that form is the beginning of the end.

Yes.

It may not be the right form.

And so she paused and she was like, I don't know if this counts.

And I said, rather than starting with a form, what is a need in your life that by bringing together a specific group of people, you might be able to address?

And she paused and she was like, I don't know if this counts.

But the thing that's coming to mind is I'm a worn out mom.

And the other day I was at a friend's house and she cut me peanut butter and jelly sandwich into triangles and she fed me and I burst into tears.

And I was like, why did you burst into tears?

And she said, Because it was the first time in a long time that I was taken care of.

And she said, what if I threw a dinner party for my other worn out moms?

And I said, Great, give it a name, right?

This, Abby, this gets to like the audacity point.

What I tell her in the next 30 seconds is coaching her not to like be audacious, it's giving her a bridge to help create a temporary world that other people want to be a part of.

Okay,

give it a name.

She called it the worn-out moms hoot and annie.

Give it a rule.

This involves alcohol, but if you talk about your children, you have to take a shot.

That's good.

And she started getting like excited.

You could like feel, you know, like the blood came back into her face.

It was like, oh, oh, that's a need.

Yes, that's a need.

She ended up, what does it mean to be embodied?

They ordered takeout.

And so the audacity, if she, if people had entered and they like looked around and she was like, you can't talk about your children.

Right.

Otherwise, you have to take a tequila shot.

She's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

I didn't sign up for this.

And they didn't.

She was hosting them.

So she sent out an email subject line: the worn-out mom's hoot nanny, right?

Names have titles, names have social contracts within them, right?

A meeting.

It's like a meeting can cover all matter of sins.

Is it a workshop?

Is it a hoot nanny?

Is it a brainstorming?

Right.

How many times, even in the workplace, you all probably work with exactly who you want to work with, but so many people enter Zooms these days in remote work and you back into the purpose.

I thought this was a brainstorming call.

Why is legal here?

Right.

No offense to my lawyer.

Exactly.

Exactly.

But so often, because we don't actually know what the purpose is, we kind of like waste a lot of other people's times like figuring it out in the room.

And she sent this email.

She told a story.

The audacity, again, it's not like, it's not only be brave.

It's creating the invisible infrastructure and telling a story, inviting people in to consent to want to be part of that temporary temporary world and follow a specific set of pop-up rules, not etiquette, that help us coordinate for the night, say yes, arrive.

And it's specific.

Is this for everyone?

No.

It's disputable.

What if I don't want to take a ticket shot?

Then don't talk about your children, right?

I'm being a little facetious here, but the constraints create energy.

It creates specificity.

And it allows people to realize that's really fun.

All six women RSVP'd, yes.

They like went off and did it.

And she's shifting the norms of her community.

Yeah.

She's shifting what women who also happen to be mothers can talk about in an evening.

Yeah.

She's temporarily creating guardrails, geographic guardrails.

It's like your walks, the founding of this podcast.

We can do hard things.

We can do hard things like parent, but tonight we're not going to talk about that.

Tonight, we're going to talk about all of our other identities that are also complicated by being a parent.

And we're going to have a little fun while doing it.

I love that you just mentioned the specific purpose and how that is the place to start, not the, I'm doing a wedding.

That's the purpose is not a wedding.

That is the format, right?

That is the function.

And that it needs to be specific and disputable, which I love.

Can you talk more about that?

Because

that is something I'd never heard of.

It makes so much sense from a lens of being a

a decision-making tool

throughout the rest of the planning.

I love this question.

And, you know, we started with talking about intention and desire.

And at some level, desire is also about choice.

It's about choosing.

And choosing is line drawing, right?

It's cutting something out in order to grow something else.

And gathering is like the sociological intellectual, like intellectual is the wrong word, but it's the invisible like patterning of our everyday life.

And so to be specific and disputable, one of the reasons going going back to the research that gathering and ritual and kind of meaningful moments for modern life and the messiness of modern life is kind of

not happening, right?

Everyone ends up in the living room kind of chit-chatting and then goes home.

Yes.

It's because we haven't actually paused to ask what is the need here.

And so often, like in trying to not impose, in trying to not be specific, oh, this is how I grew up Jewish, or this is how I grew up Indian, or this is how I grew up Southern Baptist, or this is how I grew up as a Yankee fan.

And assuming not everyone is a Yankee fan, we end up like

safe as social.

I figure we'll turn up the heat as this conversation goes on.

That is very specific and highly disputable.

Okay, Brian.

And so a specific disputable purpose.

Let me give another example.

You talk about weddings.

I've been working with a lot of couples who are kind of freaking out about their weddings and for a lot of different things, right?

We have this kind of runaway wedding industry that is like more and more events, more and more expensive, and all very much specific on form.

And so it's pausing and actually asking first, not why you're getting married, you should probably already have that conversation, but why are you having a wedding?

Why not go to City Hall?

Why not elope?

Like, why are you having a wedding?

And people are usually like, what do you mean?

Like, that's what just people do.

And it's like, okay, but why are you doing it?

And to pause, like, the rule number one in conflict resolution is to name the thing.

Why?

So for some people, it is to honor the previous generation.

This is reciprocity for all of the things that my parents and my grandparents have done and to almost repay those debts.

And in other

couples, the fundamental purpose is to unite a specific group, communities around two people and their specificity.

And those are two, very different purposes.

And when we don't pause and say, why am I actually doing this, particularly with your partner and then perhaps with your parents or whoever else may be decision makers, we back into proxy wars, right?

The guest list is a proxy war around purpose.

Who is this for first?

Does the last invitation go to the mother's colleague or to the college buddy?

And so.

A specific disputable purpose is basically saying, this is what the need is in my or our life, or this is what the need is in the community.

And then at some level, like testing, going back to Abby's audacity point, to see if you're right about the need.

I mean, in a wedding, you have more power because it is fundamentally about you and this union between two people.

But in a workplace or in an organization, like you may misdiagnose the need.

But basically, a specific and disputable need also allows you to understand who your guests are.

Often explosions happen at gatherings because people didn't sign up for it because it was really vague, right?

You go to a conference, you're like sitting there, sort sort of panel after panel after panel.

It's like, why did I come to this?

Right?

Or you could go to a party and you get cornered and you're sort of like finding only the people you know.

And it's like, I would much rather be at home with my partner.

And so, a specific disputable purpose, whether it's a worn out mom's hoot nanny, or whether it's what this wedding is actually about, allows you to make really helpful decisions and it helps you to generously exclude.

We over-include because we don't know why we're gathering.

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So one of the purposes is not just to have more meaning in the gathering and not just to get what we need.

from the gathering, but it helps us decide who to include and who not to include.

Is this what you call exclusionary inclusion or inclusionary exclusion?

Which one is it?

Yes.

You all are all so beautifully prepared.

The biggest, most beautiful nerds of them all.

It makes my little nerd heart like pitter patter.

So I call it a couple of things.

One is generous exclusion.

Part of what I've really been trying to do, if I kind of just like scoot all the way back, it's like, why am I spending my time doing this?

Why am I spending time like trying to shift how people are gathering?

And part of it is because we're lonely, we're in serious crisis, but also because as we're trying to birth a new world, we don't have the rituals to match it to make people feel safe and connected to that world.

Love it.

And

some of the biggest mistakes we make, we've been designing this.

course for the last two years and we literally have been just watching what are people's blockages like the book like helped change the mindset of like okay you can gather meaningfully but then what's the blockage why like why are people getting stuck one of them is a fear of imposing right who am i to do it in this way one of them is not realizing they don't know what their need is creating and pausing the need and one of them is the fear of exclusion Yes, right?

It's easier to not do something to get people mad at me.

Yes.

Yes.

And part of gathering is, yes, it's about love, but it's also about power.

And like as a host, you have a role to realize.

Like right now, you all are hosts of this gathering, the we can do hard things gathering.

The guests may be listening to it at different moments.

They may going on walks, but at some level, you are protecting them.

That's right.

By choosing which guests you have on.

You are protecting me by helping me feel safe, by honoring my work, by asking questions that are connecting you to me.

You are modeling, yes, love, but also power and protection.

And so, a good host practice is the first thing is generous authority, which is using your power as a host to connect your guests to each other,

to protect your guests from each other,

and to temporarily equalize.

And this is like, again, I said earlier, it's not rocket science, simple examples of what do I mean by protection.

David Gergen was a advisor to many presidents and was one of the the moderators of the Kennedy School Forum, which is at the Kennedy School in Massachusetts,

that has heads of state visit like once a week to talk to students.

You have 60 minutes.

The head of state or whatever luminary is visiting to talk to like 22-year-olds, right?

This is like a very special thing.

And maybe they're interviewed for 30 minutes, 40 minutes, and then there's a Q ⁇ A.

And at the beginning of every Q ⁇ A session, David Gergen says, it's now time to turn to our community.

And there's a thousand people in the room.

A question ends with a question mark.

Ah, that's

he's protecting the guests.

And people laugh.

And then always they're like person three, person four, person five, and you can probably imagine who these people tend to be and who they tend to not be, will be like, well, before I want to ask something, I want to just tell you about an experience I had in 1972.

And David Gergen will use his authority as a host and say, a question ends with a question mark.

He'll cut them off.

A question ends with a question mark.

I'm really serious.

People start like laughing nervously, but it seems mean in the moment.

He's protecting the purpose.

Amen.

He's protecting the gathering.

It is sacred.

Like those 20 minutes are sacred.

The head of state or whoever it is rarely gets to actually hear what young people think.

Young people get to be treated seriously and sometimes ask questions that will shift a policy potentially.

He understands the larger purpose and he's using his generous authority to protect it in the moment.

But he also, going back to Abby's earlier point around audacity, he stated the rules up front.

Yes.

And so whether it's the Kennedy School forum or whether it's a worn-out mom's hoot nanny, gatherings are temporary social constructs that if you choose to do, and again, it's anyone can do this.

You know how excited I am about this digital course?

I'm choosing to launch it on your show because we can do hard things.

And what harder thing can we do than gather and gather differently and treat our time together as sacred and actually say, this is what I think we should be spending our time in.

Won't you come in?

And in order for us to be different, we're going to put a few temporary rules that I'm going to enforce slightly, but you've already said yes.

And you're grateful.

for my generous hosting.

So grateful.

I think that I might suffer from this affliction more than the average bear but assuming that everyone knows the same etiquette

is not

i don't like going into a million different spaces and not knowing what's going to happen there and not knowing what's expected of me and not i mean our our most ridiculous example is somebody invited me to a potluck Priya and asked me to bring a dish.

And so I brought a fucking dish.

Just a dish.

They meant

to put food on it.

No food on it.

Did I know that?

No, because

they assumed some kind of common etiquette knowledge.

Correct.

This is such a beautiful example.

And I loved your episode on etiquette.

You're totally right.

Etiquette is a specific code.

And it's a code that works if we're generous to it.

It's a code that works for monolithic cultures.

When there is a way, I, you know, Abby, I know you went to, I don't know if it was Cotillion or if it was manner school, like I went to the same thing, right?

I'm, my mother's an Indian immigrant.

My dad's like from a small town in Iowa.

Like it was like the thing in my high school in Virginia, people were doing.

And so like every day I would wear the same vest and skirt because I owned like one good outfit.

I mean, good, right?

I'm putting good in clothes.

No one wants to see like the white turtleneck and the kids.

Yeah.

And I would like go and they'd wheel out the little trolley.

Yes.

And they're teaching a specific way to put the fork.

Oh my God.

We're not dancing the Harlem shake.

We're learning the steps of the foxtrot.

That's right.

And again, there are millions of people who have gone to Cantillion around this country, as I understand it, who actually,

if you're trying to enter a certain world, it actually helps people who didn't grow up in certain worlds to know that when someone says bring a dish, you put food in it.

But we don't live in that world.

We are a browning country.

We are going to soon be majority, minority.

My husband, Anand Girdardas, is a journalist and he says, you know, we are falling on our face right now as a country because we are jumping so high,

because we are trying to be the first thing that has ever existed in the history of the world, which is a multiracial democracy.

And part of explaining temporarily, hey, I'm having this party, this means this, is it's actually deeply inclusive.

Yes!

That is how I want you to be.

And the last thing I'll say is a lot of the people I interviewed in the art of gathering, and a lot of people starting to take this course, and some of the best gatherers in the world are introverts.

They're self-described as often on the outside of things, as loners.

Like, this is their language, not mine.

And I thought this was so interesting.

And I finally asked one of the people I was interviewing, I said, Why do you think this is?

And she said, I don't know about other people, but most gatherings I go to, I'm overwhelmed.

I don't know how to be.

I don't know what the codes are.

I feel unheld.

And so I create the gatherings I wish existed in the world.

And they're not like relying on the fancy house, like their starlight personality.

It's thinking ahead of time, what is this thing?

If I hosted a picnic, what is the specific item everyone could bring?

Bring your favorite tea mug.

I'll bring a thermos.

Bring two mugs, your favorite tea mug for yourself and one you want to share with the group and tell the story as to why.

It costs

$3 to have tea bags in a thermos.

But so often, we don't know how to have a specific, disputable purpose, but meaning lies in specificity.

And in a democracy, gathering in this way, learning how to actually think what is my need, who needs to be there, and how do I explain this to them in a way they want to be part of it.

They're willing to give up some amount of their freedom.

I'll wear that silly hat for Glennon because I realize she explained it to to me in the invitation.

This is how she used to party when she was nine years old.

And I love her and she's trying to bring more silliness in her life versus stepping in and being like, here, wear the silly hat.

Gathering in this way is good for our democracy.

But it's just one little pebble at a time.

Meaning lies in specificity.

Meaning lies in specificity.

So you are not being specific because you're a prima donna.

You are not being specific because the thing that you're hosting, you want it to be just so.

You're being specific in order to make sure that this gathering has meaning

and the meaning matches the need.

And so this reminds me so much.

We just did a couple episodes on dating.

It's a stretch, but dating and beige flags.

And the way that they were talking about beige flags, it's like, I want to be so

approachable and accessible to everyone

that I am going to exude such a generic mass appeal that I actually appeal to no one.

Because you actually don't want your gathering to work for everyone on God's green earth.

You want your gathering to specifically work specifically for this group of people that you are gathering.

If everyone is invited, nobody is invited.

If I am willing to date everyone, I am willing to not date anyone specifically.

Closing the door metaphorically and literally creates the room.

And it's not forever, right?

So community is different than gathering.

People start getting upset, like, you're going to leave them out at this one time.

It's like, it depends on the purpose.

And in workplaces, people are like, invited to way too many meetings.

Right.

It's like, give them their time back.

Yeah.

So often, like, we don't know what we want to attend because there's not specificity to it.

And you can be specific and be exclusive, right?

You can definitely be specific and be a prima donna.

Like, specificity is a tool.

If someone suggests a dress code that costs $1,000 to meet, that's a very specific form of connection.

But specificity, I'll give another example.

A friend's boss received like a magnum of champagne

from a client and he doesn't drink.

And the magnum was from 2003.

And the friend of mine said, What do I do with this?

Like, this is a huge amount of alcohol.

Like, what do I do with this?

Like, do I invite four people?

Do I invite 12 people?

Like, is everyone taking a sip?

Like, it actually size matters,

right?

Like, depending on the gathering, like, is this literally like everyone has a thimble and it's hilarious, and you invite 70 people?

Like, what is it?

It's just this funny design constraint.

And I said, invite 12 people.

And the barrier to the cost of entry is you have to bring a story

from your life in the year 2003.

Specificity, right?

It just, it's like that moment of connection.

There's so many different things one can talk about, right?

All of us have so many different identities.

One of the things I loved, Glendon, when you had like a deep dive on Amanda, you said,

there are so many ways to tell the story.

There's so many lens I could give you to this beautiful person, right?

That is true of all of us.

And when we enter a room, I'm debating.

Am I showing you my biracial side?

Am I emphasizing my conflict side?

Am I saying my divorce side?

Am I emphasizing my softball player side?

My marching band side?

Do I not want to tell you about my marching band side?

No matter what, right?

Who are these people?

Whoops.

Whoopsie daisies.

Please, marching band listeners, raise your hand.

Oh, it's so good.

It's so beautiful because, you know, in the beginning, you said this is about world creation, and it is.

It's also about identity creation.

As someone who's slightly obsessed with who the hell am I?

We do so much of it alone.

And that's why we're so confused.

I mean, I'm on a freaking BuzzFeed trying to figure out if I'm a Harry Potter character.

Like we're not really what you're saying is these gatherings are partly, I brought you here because I see you as brave.

Like if someone did that, I would be like, oh, I'm brave.

Yes, yes.

That's how I see, right?

We see each other through each other.

Yes.

And not every gathering needs to be like through conversation or through dialogue.

It can also be a shared experience.

I don't know if you heard, but there's a lot of conflicts and tension within families right now.

Oh, Jesus.

No.

Here we go.

Just going to tell you.

Just going to tell you.

Let's get into it.

So there's a woman I know.

Again, specificity.

So a woman I know, every example I share, I have permission to share.

She was actually on one of our office hours, digital course office hours, and she was trying to figure out, like real person, we're testing like, how does she actually shift from like, I want to gather this way, but I have have a family reunion.

Ah, like, what do I do?

And it was her father's 70th birthday.

There's always drama when the collective family comes together.

She didn't want the focus to be a big long meal because the more they talk, the more everything goes downhill.

Sometimes talk is the solution.

Sometimes talk is the problem.

And so she was, again, if you go think back to the baby ritual example, like what is the structure?

What's the coordinating mechanism mechanism to shift how we gather

and so all she did she realized that the math and poetry of her gathering was she invited her entire family two weeks ahead of time she's hosting them before they arrive to send three photos

of pops it could be a photo with them just three photos

And then the moment of focus, the peak of the gathering was in all of the family members gathered in the living room.

She on her phone projected a TV and then she invited them.

When you see your photo,

tell us about why this reminds you of pops.

And so there's like an old photo from 50 years ago of he and his wife when they were 22 outside of a just sold sign in the house that they're all sitting in.

Oh, wow.

And then there's an image of a black pickup truck.

And the four-year-old granddaughter starts jumping up and down.

It's an accessible like coordinating mechanism saying, Saying, every time I see a black truck, I start getting so excited because I think it might be Poppy.

She found the right

coordinating mechanism that was accessible.

Everyone had a few photos that was ahead of time, that wasn't too high a lift, that gave people a meaningful way to engage, that was equalizing, that protected them, equalizing,

that protected them from each other

and let them spend time together in a way that wasn't going to be really painful.

Yes.

And in that specific family, like they still wanted to spend time together, but she realized as this aspiring, artful gatherer, that she needed to slightly tilt how they spend their time and bring their family along in almost like incognito form.

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The equalizing two,

I tend to feel so comfortable when there is a structure for time

because

I feel that lack of equalization.

If we just invite people into spaces, then there's always a couple people who have the kind of personality that dominates conversation, that will talk the whole time, that every space is filled with their voice.

And so if we don't arrange different structures, there's only three people ever talking.

We don't get to know 80% of the people.

So it makes me feel so comfortable when there's a structure that's like, now that person has the floor.

Now this person, now the four-year-old's voice gets to come out because it's her moment.

That's probably the most precious moment of the thing.

And it never would have happened.

Yes.

If there wasn't a structure.

Exactly.

And structures can be like found in the moment.

So I'll give a different example: retirement party.

My father is a government civil servant, worked for the government for like 30 years.

This is a couple of years ago.

He was retiring.

I mentioned earlier he's in Iowa.

So code for that was like, he didn't want to make a fuss.

And he was like, slip out, you know?

And one of his colleagues realized Ron's retiring, sends an email around,

and very well-intentioned, like beautiful instinct, right?

Let's mark this.

My stepmother asks, oh, there's a, there's a lunch.

And he's kind of like, I go, I guess, like, sort of, can I come?

Yeah, yeah, sure.

So she, she goes,

she'd read my book.

You know, you're like, make sure your parents read your book.

And she sat down and she was so excited.

And there was like a 17-person table at like a Greek restaurant across the street.

10 minutes go by, 15 minutes go by.

And then all of a sudden, she's like, starts getting really nervous.

And she's like, is lunch just going to be lunch?

Oh,

it's like his retirement party after 30 years.

Like,

whoa, what is happening here?

As she describes it to me, she like kind of blacked out, like dung her glass, stood up and was like,

hi, you know, voice shaking.

I'm, I'm Renee.

I'm Ron's wife.

And

I'm so happy to be here today.

And, you know, I know like home, Ron,

but I don't really know work, Ron.

Oh, this is good.

Would you tell me something about him?

Silence.

We can do hard things.

And then out of the corner, there's a small little ding, and it's the intern.

And he stands up and he says, I've been working here for a few months.

And I learned very quickly, even though Ron is on the other side of the floor, if I have any question, I walk across the floor because no matter what he's doing, he will put his papers down, stand up, and answer my question.

Another one dings.

You know, Ron is always the person at the end, he's created pesticide programs, at the end of the program, right?

When we're all like, just done, it's like, it was like, ship this thing out.

He

rallies the troops and he's like, we get to name the acronym.

And his personal coup was when he named one out of it after his daughter, the Pesticide Reduction Information Act, the PRIA.

Oh my God.

You know, and like, and all of a sudden, like popcorn, popcorn, popcorn, popcorn, popcorn, people laughing, people talking, people sharing specific stories.

She sits down.

She models like radical, audacious guesting.

Yes.

And vulnerability.

And vulnerability.

And that is what it is.

You have to be so vulnerable to be like, I have a need that we get beyond surface level and that I have a place where I can share my squishy middle.

And so it's vulnerable for me to host this thing where I'm asking for somebody else's squishy middle.

But that's what it takes for people to be able to show up that way.

But for a purpose.

Yes.

They're not saying, share your childhood traumas.

And there are workplaces that are currently doing that and it's inappropriate.

Yeah.

It was vulnerability for a purpose, right?

There was a legitimate purpose there, which is let's honor this guy.

She found the right coordinating mechanism.

In this course, I call it the math and the poetry.

She found the poetry and the math.

What could they all do?

What's equalizing?

They then choose their level of vulnerability.

But the last thing, going back to your first point, Amanda, is like it changes things afterwards.

When I say transformative, first of all, the story in my father's head for the next, however long he lives, God bless him, is my work mattered.

People saw my moments of kindness,

but it also changed the guests.

Whoa.

Maybe I should stand up when the intern comes.

Yeah.

Oh,

didn't realize people noticed moments of joy.

Whoa, right.

And so she got there in the moment and she took a big risk.

And sometimes it can fall flat, right?

But the amount of times we're at a funeral or like memorial, or I was recently at a launch for a film at a big conference, hundreds of people there, people milling around.

And like, you can kind of feel that pregnant moment where it's like, okay, someone going to say something.

Like, are we, what are we doing?

What are we doing?

What are we doing?

And no one said anything.

And I am.

I went to the person who the ostensible host is.

And I was like, that person was like, oh, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no,

here's your moment.

And he said to me, I have my notes in my pocket,

but I don't want to kill the vibe.

Oh.

And I'm like, I don't know if this is an American thing.

I don't know.

Our like misplaced fear of imposing, it's like, no, no, no, no, no, you're birthing the moment.

Yeah.

Right?

Like a moment of focus, one minute, two minutes, three minutes.

But so often we under host because we're not totally sure how to create that moment tell a story why are we here

why are you here how do we create this incredible film during a global pandemic with teens in 32 different spots and the way that you clarissa i'm making this up shipped the tapes right from the driveway and wiped them up with cloric swipes and send them to eric and then you took it on a donkey clearly i'm like literally making this up now

nailing it right it's like all of this moments like moments of specificity and marking and allowing us to own the good i mean abby you do that like this is your like a captain it's almost like let us steer the ship as a captain these are people they need to be loved they need to be touched but they need to be oriented what are we doing here and why are you all here and why does that matter can people leave not knowing why they matter to something and it feels like such an opportunity listen pod squatters, introverts, weirdos, like this is our moment, right?

Like

this is our moment to be like, no, what would we want?

What when we say, when I say, I don't like parties, I don't like being with other people.

I don't mean that.

That's not true.

I mean, I don't like the form and the way that it always is.

I actually love being with other people.

I just need intention and structure.

It's what's the truest, most beautiful gathering you can imagine.

It's like you actually do get to do that.

And the beauty of that is then not only do you get to have it for yourself, but you are creating

a culture that allows for other people to say, Well, actually, this one's my truest, most beautiful

gathering of my imagination.

It gives people permission.

This is literally the tilt between I don't like parties.

It's like, I don't think anyone likes those parties, but it starts with language, it starts with specificity.

It's like, were I to mark whatever it is in my life, what would this be?

It may be three people, right?

But it's a muscle.

Practicing, gathering is like, it's a muscle.

It's an everyday practice.

And if this feels overwhelming, then you can start as a guest.

My really good hosts are really good guests.

This sounds fun, too.

It doesn't feel like

it sounds like a party I want to go to rather than like one that I don't.

That they've been to seven trillion times.

And I also just want to put you on the spot and ask you for one more thing.

And then I want to talk about the giveaway and how people are going to get this.

So we've created this space, but the problem with get-togethers with people is people.

Okay, so what I would love for you to do is to say, Glennon, I will come back and I will talk to you about how to, when we gather,

deal with in loving, generous, but protective ways with people who are difficult.

Period.

It would be my honor.

Okay.

We could call it

people.

Are the Trojan horses

of the conversations we have been avoiding to have?

Because there are these forcing mechanisms that actually ask, who do I want there and who do I not?

And the interesting part isn't who do I want there?

The interesting line is the ambivalence lines.

It's also not like who doesn't need to be there.

Who cares?

It's that like ragged edge where there's so much juice and where there's an invitation to either like have a facing conversation the purpose of this is this and like next time when there's something else there's this and you don't mean that thing to me right i had a friend who had a 40th birthday party recently he wanted to keep it relatively small he's part of a theater community I heard about this in my newsletter recently.

And I put like the theater communities in asterisks because as I understand, not being part of them, like these people roll deep.

Like you've been part of many shows.

We have like six friends.

Like they have like 200, you know, like real friends.

So he was having his 40th birthday party and he wanted to keep it relatively small, which is why I'm like joking.

Relatively small for him was 40.

Oh, but that was a tight line in an embedded community.

And he still, he wanted symbolically, he knew himself.

He knew what he is like at 40 versus 200.

So he cut, that was the line.

And the line he chose for the purpose to protect it was, if I am only going to invite.

the people who I've had a meaningful one-on-one conversation or experience with in the last year.

Because that to him was a proxy for like desire, active desire.

So he did that.

A bunch of people weren't invited.

Some were mad and didn't say anything.

Some were mad and said something.

And the transformative conversations were the ones who's like, What?

I thought we were close.

Why didn't you invite me?

He explains his line.

And then some people were like, Well, that's dumb.

And some people were like, Oh my gosh, it's been a year.

I'm so sorry.

I totally get that.

I'm actually kind of embarrassed.

I love you so much can i take you out for dinner

it shifts the relationship and so if you want to we can coach you through a gathering and all the steps i will ride along with you and come back and talk about it but this is why it's so interesting because the planning yeah

for the host

can be transformative i see it And it's why it's one of the reasons that I trust you in this work is because I don't want anybody talking about gathering unless they're also a conflict resolution.

I'm talking about that.

It's like, who are we?

That's what it takes.

Who do we want to be now?

Yeah.

Gathering is political.

It's small P political.

It's saying, I think we should spend time in this way.

I think these people should be here.

I think for this moment, these people should not be here.

I think this is how we should coordinate.

People may revolt.

People may have a better idea and they might, but it is actually choosing to engage with each other and putting something out there.

I love it.

Sister, tell people how they can get this free giveaway which is our first one i'm so excited for this

and you get a course

and you get a course and you get a course and you get a course and you get a course part of the reason i'm giving away these courses on your show i've never done this before is because what is harder

than how we gather right with our people in front of them being vulnerable not just individually not just with our partner with our community and where else to do this than with the people who most want to try to do things differently

Yep.

Amen.

Amen.

Okay.

This is the Art of Gathering Digital Course.

This is the one that Priya's been talking about.

She's spent two

years researching and building.

It normally goes for $397.

It's a six-week self-guided course.

She is generously gifting us with 50, that is 5-0

registration.

So the first 50 pod squatters who go to priyaparker.com slash hard things.

That's P-R-I-Y-A-P-A-R-K-E-R dot com slash hard things and sign up on the landing page.

You will get it, the course for free.

And it is just thrilling and exciting.

So come do this course.

And even if you aren't the first 50, we have goodies for you there.

Oh, let's go.

It's so good if you're not the first 50 because we know you all are.

You all roll deep.

We're like a theater.

The first 50 million.

Exactly.

Triya Parker, we love you.

Thank you so much.

Modeling artful gathering that protects people, that is authentic, that is based on the questions you actually have, that honors your guests, that...

creates safety, that creates vulnerability, that has differentiation between different episodes of when are you going deep on you?

When are you mirrors?

And when are you windows?

You are modeling this.

And it's like, it's a distributed gathering over time.

That's that's a new form.

And so you're modeling this in this fascinating new way, but you're already walking the talk with your community.

And Glennon, we'll see how you do this with your other community at some point.

I know.

Come into a theater near you.

Embodied community.

It's a new friend.

Our two friends are like, exactly.

Our two friends are like, we're going to have to come back over, aren't we?

Looks like another pizza night at Doyle.

But the toppings are specific.

Specific.

And then you have to bring stories.

In specificity, there is meaning.

That's right.

Exactly.

That's why they're.

All right, pod squatters.

We will gather here next time.

Bye.

Hooray.

Bye.

Oh, I love that.

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things.

First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

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To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow.

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While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

We appreciate you very much.

We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios.

I give you Tish Milton and Brandy Carlisle.

I walked through fire, I came out the other side.

I chased desire,

I made sure I got what's mine

And I continue

to believe

That I'm the one for me

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on map.

A final destination

we lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a hard thing.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem,

sometimes things fall apart.

And I continue to believe

the best

people are free.

And it took some time,

but I'm finally fine.

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

A final destination we lack.

We stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a hard thing

to adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

We might get lost, but we're okay

back.

We've stopped asking directions

in some places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do hard things.

Yeah, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we

can do

hard

things.