218. Kelly Clarkson: Red Flags, Divorce & Starting Over

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I walked through fire, I came out the other side.

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

I have a very special place in my heart for women who artfully and relentlessly tell the truth about their lives.

This one.

This one is right.

This one that we have with us today

is as cheetah-ish as a goddamn cheetah gets.

You may have heard of her.

Her name is Kelly Clarkson.

Yep.

Heard of her?

Hi, Kelly.

I've never heard of her.

I've never heard of her.

I should have worn my cheetah necklace.

I'm moving to New York, so all my jewelry is packed.

I should have worn my cheetah necklace for you.

I made one.

I cannot believe that you have a cheetah necklace.

No, you don't understand.

I know we've talked about this a little bit on my show, but I cannot tell you the timing, my nanny handing me that book, me reading it.

The fastest I've ever read a book, me getting to the part where it was like, would you want your child in this relationship?

And sobbing uncontrollably while they're both in my bed and I'm in my bathroom on the floor like a scene like it was a scene and it just was you know things come at the right time because I was struggling and it just came at the right time like and she's given me you know tons of like book ideas like to read we're all avid readers in our group so but I've never once been like that because we love very different books usually she likes like someone's died and then they're looking for them

she likes those kind of books and I'm like I don't want death.

I'm like, I'm good.

Life is hard enough.

I need something to help me not add more problems to my life.

Yeah.

So good.

Your group, someone in a group gave it to you.

We have like a, yeah, like my, it's like my, my mom, my sister, um, there's Ava, Tricia, Al.

There's such a bunch of us that like, we like reading different things or listening to it.

We're all very different, but somehow our crazy crew works.

Even my mother, I was just with my mother and sister in Montana, and she just started losing it over this toast.

And I was like, I'm going to let her have the moment on the toast.

The toast.

I'm like, bread?

Yes, because it kept burning.

The toaster kept burning her toast.

And she just wanted some toast and it just wasn't happening.

And it was obviously more than the toast that was happening.

It always is.

Yeah.

I was like, this is bigger than the toast.

But anyway, it was just funny.

But we're like that group that can also be like, so are you good?

Or we should talk about it.

I think we're all just to a certain age to where there's no bullshit.

So yeah.

yeah, so it's nice, but we're all very different.

So that's also very funny.

Isn't it a gift of getting older is having relationships where there's no bullshit?

Oh my God.

Yes.

Okay, so take us back.

So you, because we've, my sister and I listened to chemistry.

We were in a hotel by ourselves.

The whole album?

I thought you'd only heard the three songs.

No, I got it.

It's happy right now.

I begged.

I begged for a link.

We got a secret link from some secret people

sister and i sat in the hotel room blast it like we haven't done since maybe we were in seventh grade sissy oh my god i love it we were like looking at each other like weeping and then we were like kept like stopping it during certain lyrics and being like oh my god my god we were like going back and then like

it was a journey telling awesome it was a journey for us It's a journey, right, though?

It's a roller coaster.

It's funny that you listen to it.

I don't know if you listened to it straight through, but we.

We did.

We did.

So I went back and forth about that because I was like, well, maybe I just start at the beginning of the relationship and just kind of, you know, accordingly, like do each song, but it didn't make sense like sonically.

It was odd.

So I was like, you know what?

The whole thing was a roller coaster.

It's fine if the, if, if the sequencing is that.

So, um, but I definitely wanted to start with Can I Skip This Part, which is maybe one of the saddest songs I've ever written.

But that's how you feel when you go through something.

I know we can do hard things.

That's why we're here right now.

But sometimes you don't want to do it.

That's right.

You never do.

You rarely rarely do.

Go right to the end where people are like, you're going to be happy one day.

Yeah.

We call it trying to skip the crucifixion and go straight to the resurrection, which that is like never

the way.

Yeah.

It doesn't work.

I love that it wasn't in order because it feels like that too.

Feelings don't.

They're not clean and linear.

The beginning, middle, end, and post of a relationship is like everything everywhere all at once, right?

It's like you feel all, it's so beautiful.

So there's no post.

There's no post, really, is there?

There's just the new you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which is why it kind of ends with that's right.

So the song with Sheila E that we got her to perform on which I was so excited.

That's kind of the like

Stella got a groove back song.

Yeah.

Yes.

That's the song where it's just like, okay.

I was like, it's all right.

It's going to be good.

And I liked ending with that and starting with on the floor crying.

But

but it's, yeah, it's definitely a roller coaster.

So take us back to on the floor crying because everyone on earth knows the on the floor crying.

I used to say people say that God is everywhere, but I think that God is in the bathroom because of the moments of rock bottom I've had on bathroom floors.

That's like my

gosh.

Yeah.

That's me too.

You just said it.

My lowest point in life was actually after this show in Irvine

and years ago, like 2000,

I don't know, five, something like that.

I can't remember.

My lowest point I've ever been at.

And it was in a bathroom.

And honestly, it's the one place you can escape from everyone.

No one bothers you there, especially if you're like even lying, going, I got to go to the bathroom, like for real.

They really won't bother you.

Yeah.

You know, so it's just like, the longer.

They'll really leave me alone.

The longer you do that, the less they'll bother you.

Yes.

I know, I know.

I think that's the place where you find where people tend to leave you alone.

So yeah, it it was the one place at that, that amphitheater.

And that is true.

I've never thought of that before, but that was a moment for me.

Why was that your lowest moment?

So I had this thing and it since then still been working on the same thing.

Just love to, you know.

live

cyclical pattern.

But anyway, so I was very sad.

I was having a very hard time with certain people in my life that personally in business, just everywhere.

It was kind of like, and it was my heyday for me.

Like it was like the third tour we've done on that breakaway album.

I was very tired.

I'd had walking pneumonia twice.

I was just beat.

Nobody cared.

They just literally were pumped, not nobody, but no one that counted that made the schedule or did anything cared.

And so I'm a total southern girl and a very hard worker.

And I've always been taught to like, I mean, even in sports growing up, you know, you're like, no, you can push yourself further than you think.

I've always been that person.

So I just pushed and pushed.

And there were very unhealthy people around me, like in their own lives, like very unhealthy.

And everyone on the coattails, if I'm being blunt,

was just draining me.

And there was nowhere to go.

Like home wasn't great.

Business wasn't great.

Even on the road, like the only place, if you at one point turn around and go, wow, the only place I actually feel safe or heard is when I'm on stage doing a show.

That's a really big problem.

Like, Like,

you know, so yeah, so that's a problem.

So that was the lowest I've ever, I've ever been.

Cut to years of still thinking I could, you know, there's like this song I have called Sober.

It's pick the weeds and keep the flowers.

And so basically I started, you know, getting, tending my garden and trying to like get people out that aren't bad people, just not good for me.

But I have this thing where, which is obviously I've done enough therapy at this point

to realize where things just kind of come back up, especially if you haven't addressed them or if you think you've gotten through it, but I haven't.

And so I just, yeah, for years, even until this relationship that's on this record, like there's still things that are just these cyclical patterns.

It's like, when am I going to learn?

Like, when is it going to be the time you actually learn and not just learn of it, but learn of it and actually change it.

Like, because it's very hard to change those patterns, especially that are built in from childhood, you know?

So

yeah, cut to a lot of bathroom floor time.

Floors.

So you read this part of Untamed.

I think it's the one that you're referring to where I had this moment where I realized I was staying in the relationship for my little girl.

But would I want this relationship for my little girl?

And if not, then why am I staying in this and calling it good mothering when really it's bad modeling?

Which is kind of like tricky because even I've had friends come to me after three now.

This is like three years this month, or maybe to like this week or last week, three years like since our separation, right?

And I'd read that and I know that to be true for me.

Like, I even watching my mother in two different marriages, there's things you pick up on, even as a kid that you're like, this is unhealthy, right?

So, like, an environment to live in.

It was one of those things when I read it, I definitely was still on the not fence, but I just, I kept the tug of like loving someone so deeply and the tug of like

really needing to love yourself as much or more.

And it was like, I just don't know if if I can do this while still trying to do this anymore.

But then it's, it's interesting because you think about your kids, right?

And you're like, oh man, like, I wonder,

like, how is this going to affect them?

I remember how it affected me.

And he has also been through divorces with his family.

Like, so I just, I was like, oh, nobody wants that, right?

So you try and you try and you try.

But then you figure out, well, I don't want them growing up with this unhealthy, but I'm going to be honest with you.

I've had people come to me that are going through divorce or going through really hard relationships with kids.

It doesn't matter either way you go.

Your kids still have a hard time.

It doesn't matter if you stay.

It doesn't matter if you go.

It's still, I'm still having conversations three years later.

Like my kids just came back from my ex.

And it's always like, you know, anytime there's mention of like maybe him being with somebody else or anytime, I mean, they are just really adamant about keeping that dream alive that we might still be together one day

like and still like you know and we are never around each other so it's it doesn't matter either way both are hard so but when people say well was it better in the end i'm like i don't know that it's better in the end either way is hard i think it comes down to you it's like i don't know if i can keep holding up all of this like i don't and that's what i feel like i'm having to do and i'm a better mother i can say that like after i'm a far better mother.

Because I think when you're honest with yourself, you're able to be honest with others.

But sometimes you don't know that you're necessarily lying to yourself.

Love is tricky.

It really convinces you that you're doing the right thing or this is what you should do.

It's just a very hard thing when you love someone so deeply

to separate that and to

have the right answer, which I don't.

When my kids ask me sometimes, I'm like, I can't give you that whole story.

Like, this is your separate relationship with your father.

You know, I'm saying this is mine.

This is yours.

Like, it's, and it drives my daughter who is

far beyond all of us.

I'm just like, oh my God, I'm not ready for this conversation.

She's very inquisitive.

She's very smart.

She catches everything.

I cannot leave a hint of sarcasm on the floor.

I can't do anything.

I have to be so on top of it.

I like her argument.

Yeah, trying to do the right kind of hard, like trying to decide between what's the right hard is like one of the hardest things about parenting.

And in general, even like this move, we're all moving to New York.

Like there's people that can come and go in general.

It's doing a hard thing.

Like it's which hard thing?

They're both crappy.

Yes.

But I appreciate that about you so much because I think that people, it's like they go the opposite fairy tale.

Like we used to be taught if you stay together, all happy, happily ever after, and there's your redemption story.

And then people went the other way.

Like now I broke it off because that was the right thing for me.

And now I have to make that the perfect happy ending.

And neither are true.

They're both extremely messy and they both have challenges and blessings with them and you just pick your hard.

I'll be honest.

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I want to ask you about the song Mine Mine on your new album.

It's one of the songs that have been released already.

Yeah.

This song like gutted me because you wrote, I don't know why I stayed as long as I stayed.

Yeah.

And

boy, do I get that.

We all do.

Boy, do I get that.

Why did you stay as long as you stayed?

But that's hindsight, right?

So it's like when you're in it.

And I think also our ego, like or mine, like my ego, I'm like, I can do this.

I can handle so much.

My ego is like, I can,

I can control my actions.

I can control my reactions.

I can, I can do this and I can reach this person and I can get through and I can, and it becomes a little bit of your ego that gets in the way.

And also, if I'm being completely honest, we don't want to do what we saw done.

You know what I'm saying?

Like, I'm like, oh, I don't want my kids to be those kids at school.

Like, you know, because I grew up and it's a little different.

They grew up here.

It's a very progressive city and even even New York that's progressive.

And, but in the South, there were like two of us with divorced parents in our class.

So it was very different.

And even like when you come down to like daddy daughter dances and you don't have anyone show up and like he lives far, there's been things that happen like even in my kids' school.

And it's like, you have to think of all those things.

And

I think you, you play it out differently in your head too.

You try so hard.

Like, I do not want to do that to her.

I don't want to do that to him.

Like that you start never thinking about yourself.

And that's honestly sometimes to be selfish for me was very important because I'm never, I'm rarely selfish.

It's been beaten into me since childhood, like to have a servant's heart.

It's very hard for me to take that and go, I need this.

Like, and then it's funny, because if you're not like that, then it's almost like you're like aggressive about it.

When you do need it, you're like, yeah, I need it.

Yeah.

Like you're it has to be aggressive because you've, you've been letting it sit so long that you're like, no, no, no, no, no.

Like, I need to aggressively tell you right now that this is not working.

Like, I don't know why we do that.

Well, you got to hold your boundary.

And sometimes, if especially if it's hard to create the boundaries to begin with, when you actually do one, you're like, I'm doing it.

Yeah.

This is the line.

This is the line.

Yeah.

No, I am better, I should say.

I am far better at boundaries now, but

we have this joke in our group because I'm around a lot of Scorpios.

And I feel like Scorpios are very like, just no bullshit.

Like this is what's happening and this is what you just said.

And that's actually what you meant.

They see

everything.

I have friends and my sisters, Scorpio too, they just see right through it.

And all I see is a sea of potential.

Oh, like scary.

Like scary.

Just a sea of, oh, that's not what they meant.

They probably meant this or they probably, no, you don't know.

Like maybe they're having a rough day and like maybe they didn't.

Normally, that's not like probably what they do.

I can't, I can't think that that's like, I am that person.

Yeah, you're painting those red flags green.

You're just painting them.

And you believe in the opposite of the Dr.

Maya Angelou quote.

So it's like, when people tell you who they are, do not believe them.

I am literally the opposite.

Like, my quote would be:

when people show you who they are, it might not be who they are.

It just might be who they are today.

Like, every, and I think it boils down to: I have to believe in change.

If I don't believe in change,

I will just go so zero dark 30.

I will literally get so depressed.

I will get so bogged down and I just feel everything.

So I have to believe that everyone's capable of change.

Now, most people in my group do not

believe that most people can change.

And that's fine.

I don't collect red flags anymore.

I definitely look at them and go, this is a red flag, or I'm just doing the same thing, right?

Okay, cool.

Like, you know, I at least recognize it.

but it's it's a very hard thing to give that up because it's also a beautiful thing to see I know potential in people and it's also a beautiful thing to like not give up because you hear those stories too of like you know this person didn't give up on me and then I finally felt love for the first time or I finally because people that are like that that just haven't seen light in a while right like people that are like that it's because they forgot what it looks like you know I feel like they just forgot I don't know where do you think

where do you think that that part of you comes from I think honestly religion like growing up I think when you go to church at that young of an age, here's the thing.

I

love spirituality.

I think religion can be confusing, but I love being spiritual.

And I had a really great, and it's actually,

I'm totally not going to cry.

It's okay.

I'm going to take a drink.

Okay.

Yes.

Whatever you want.

I learned in jail that you can't cry and drink water at the same time.

She did.

For my mug shot.

Yeah, the same kids learned in jail.

The sweet person who was taking her mug shot was crying so hard that they told her, take some water.

And she said, I'm not thirsty.

And they said, no,

you

can't stop crying.

It does.

It cuts it off.

No, and why that just happened is, oh my God, I'm going to get this out.

It doesn't help that, like, it's Margaret Monthly right now.

So that's helpful for me.

But anyway, I like, look, I'm sorry.

TMI.

No, I just, it happened the other day at the voice.

I was leaving the voice and my mother, she'll text me things like sometimes I thought I was referring to the show.

Like, why did you turn for that person or why did you, like, you know, like that kind of thing, or, or like, oh, that was a great performance, something like that.

And I looked, and so his name was Dr.

Frankie Rainey,

and he was a pastor.

Oh my God, I'm trying to get this out

anyway.

So he was one of those guys, like, I didn't have a dad, and he would have

like cut out clippings and send them to me, mail them to me the letter, like,

and just say, like,

really kind things,

Jesus, take the wheel.

Okay, we're right here with you.

We're with you.

I've had pastors before, and I've had

people that weren't so great in a church environment because it's not a perfect environment by any means, but I just mean for the most part, that's been kind of detrimental.

For the most part, like people around me, not great things happened.

But this one individual,

he was just a really good man.

So,

so he represents it for you, he represents

spirituality and religion, and all of that to you.

He represents what I love about it.

Yeah, like this sounds horrible, but I've never come across one marriage that I'm, I want that.

Like, I just really haven't.

Like, I'm going to be honest with you in my life, like, not like seeing people that I don't know, like, on the regular.

I mean, like, in my life, I've never been like, that's up close.

That's what I want.

Up close.

Yeah, like the real, the real.

Like, I'm like, I don't know, that seems real difficult and not fun and happy.

It's kind of like that.

Like, with him, I just saw he, he is what I felt like whenever I read those words in Sunday school or church or we're going through the sermon.

That rang true for me.

It was like, so he was such a great example of a man, of a leader, of all those things.

Anyway, so he passed away.

Anyway,

is that what your mom was telling you?

And your mom was telling you that?

Thank you.

Get it out.

Get it out, Gwenny.

I can get it out.

Yes, that's what she texted me.

And I was just really sad about that.

But I grew up like watching

someone like that.

I'm going to get it out.

No, I get it.

So for a person that hasn't experienced that kind of love to be shown that.

Yeah.

And then you change.

Yeah.

And that shows you.

Do you think you change?

Do you think you change as a result of that love?

Oh, my god 100 and that's why i'm this crazy person that always does this like and this is why because i know it can happen

do you ever wonder if

because i think sometimes we think oh i have all this hope and because i have this hope and i see the best in people i'm fucking things up but do you ever wonder if like you're doing things exactly the way that you're supposed to?

I think at some point we all do what we think is

good and right and beneficial for everyone.

And sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't.

I mean, I don't know.

I feel like it's a beautiful thing to see that hope.

But I also think if you heard the song Lighthouse on the album, coming at you, coming in hot with Lighthouse.

We wrote it, Kelly.

We heard it like we wrote it.

Literally, but it's like we were never, it was, it was just never going to happen.

That was the song where I finally not gave up on it, but gave up on that part.

I gave up on this is never going to happen.

Like that is the song where I got off the fence and was like, okay, like I can't, I'm going to drown.

Yeah.

This is not going to be good, like for anyone.

How do you know?

Because you have.

Christianity in your background.

You have, you just said sports.

You have southern.

You have a lot of cultures you come from that revel in suffering.

Because if you believe in hope and you're a Christian person and you have that in your head, I know from experience that hope is right after the suffering.

So it's like,

how do we know?

I mean, I had a friend the other day that was at our house that was like, so, you know, my therapist is talking about how suffering means stop.

So blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I was like, I'm sorry.

What did you just say?

Yeah.

Suffering means stop.

I thought suffering means I'm on the right.

You're almost there.

You're almost there.

Yeah.

And it also means that it matters.

Yeah.

For me, like, it also means that whatever,

whatever impacts you that deeply matters.

So, so I don't know.

I can't actually recall the exact situation,

but I think there comes a point to where you just feel so beat up, like

by life, by circumstance, by yourself, by others.

You're like, I have nothing.

to give.

And I think the point comes that I will say the main reason for that is I can't even focus on us anymore because we have these two little humans here that are counting on us.

And like,

I gotta, I gotta, I gotta get better like for them.

Like we gotta, we gotta make this better for them at least.

If we're not gonna,

you know, make it for, for us.

So it's, I think, I think probably kids, that probably did it.

Yeah.

And honestly, not, I'm not saying this because you're here.

Honestly, reading those words and on that bathroom floor, like that was one of, that was all around the same time that I wrote Lighthouse, that all of that, all those songs were written written like three years ago so that was one of the major things is reading that and going

oh my god like i would never want my daughter or son in this relationship like i obviously i would hope for like way better for them um you know and a far better kind of love yeah um so so then you think i want me to love myself as much as clearly i love them and it's so weird that oh

That's literally what my therapist, I think one of the first things to talk about, she was like, if you, if you could just treat yourself how you treat others, like,

you know, and I was like, oh,

okay, hard truth.

I was like, okay, well, that's all for today.

I was like, like, so I'm just going to swallow that pill.

I'm just going to be fine.

I guess I don't ever know, too, if you're doing it right or wrong.

You just, you feel like you're doing it, you know, how you should be doing it.

And I don't know, maybe we're fucking it up.

Like, I don't know, but you're trying not to.

And that's all you can do is try with all the information you have.

But I'm honest with my kids too, not honest about anything with me and my ex, but honest about life.

I think one of the best things my therapist told me was, cause I kept trying to hide it.

I would try and run and hide somewhere.

Anytime I would just get overwhelmed and I needed to like cry.

And she was like, why are you hiding?

Obviously, don't do it all the time, but like it's normal for your kids to see you.

That's right.

First of all, care that this is happening and it's affecting you and it's not an easy thing.

And I think that was a really good lesson for me to learn.

Cause obviously, like, look at my job my vocation in general like even i spent all of covet going through hell privately trying to make america smile on my ranch in the snow while trying to record a song in six different languages and doing all these other things it was hell like that covid was hell and i just had to keep smiling and and you know keep and so i'm very good at that so because i've trained myself um but it's not healthy so it was a very good lesson i think to learn from from my therapist was like it's okay for them sometimes to see you struggling.

That's life.

They need to see that.

And I'm like, why do we protect them from that?

I don't know why we do that.

But also, P.S., same with the world.

You're like such a lighthouse that like, it's also, I think, okay.

And, you know, TV shows are going to be TV shows, but to know that other people are struggling makes people feel less alone, you know?

And honestly, you just nailed why I even released this album because I,

you know, I'm like 41.

I've got a whole other job right now.

I don't need to necessarily do that.

First of all, I just did it for me therapeutically.

That's how I get through things.

It's almost like how I'm like, what am I thinking?

That's how I figure it out or where I'm at is writing.

And so I did it selfishly at first.

And then the last few years have been really hard on a lot of people.

I think that that's true.

Like any kind of art, I think that's how you connect with people and how you don't feel isolated.

And

so I think that rings true, what you said.

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I was wondering, you were talking about Lighthouse and

there's a line in that where you say, it's such a shame when our wants and needs don't align.

And that's when the song I Hate Love comes in too, because that's, it's literally that.

You can love someone so much, but it doesn't change what's happening.

Like, you know what I'm saying?

It doesn't change the issues.

It doesn't change the problems.

It doesn't help in any way.

It's not that powerful, turns out.

And it's funny, you know, you mentioned earlier when you were like, oh, because you're a lighthouse.

So egos, like ego, when I first started writing Lighthouse, it was because people always, ever since I was a kid, or they're like, oh, you're such a light.

People have always said that to me, right?

Well, when you hear that as a kid, you feel like you kind of, it's almost like your duty then.

Like, when you're a kid, you're like,

oh, I got to, yeah, you're like, okay, well, I got to be a light.

I got to be funny.

I got to be talkative.

I got to make everyone happy.

So then it's like your thing that you're kind of known for, like from early on, which is super unhealthy.

But it's funny because you learn about yourself too.

So in Lighthouse, not only figuring out about my relationship, but also me, it turns out I wasn't the lighthouse.

Like I started writing that.

I was like, you almost got all my light.

But it turns out we both were out here drowning.

The lighthouse is up there.

I don't know who that is, but it wasn't me.

And it's like your ego gets in check, and you're like,

Okay.

And you're like, I'm not even that.

We're both out here in the dark, just treading water, and we're not finding each other and we're not getting there.

But it's interesting because then it makes you think about all those things that, like, you put on yourself once again, like from childhood that you don't even, you didn't even realize you did, you know?

Yes.

I want to ask about that light because I was married before, and I

resonate so deeply with when you, when you say in lighthouse how you almost lost your light and it was so slow and so imperceptible that I didn't even realize it at the time like I just kind of folded myself into him and I thought that I was happy and I didn't even know till I was out of it how truly sick I was in it

yep

I mean you didn't even know like uh even all the things that you accepted as that's normal.

Yes.

Are incredibly unhealthy and abusive, like almost, you know, like it's like without anyone knowing or whatever, people just living their lives, how they live them, how they've acted their whole life.

You don't even recognize it.

And then you get out.

And I remember we were at the photo shoot for chemistry.

Even being at that photo shoot, it was the first time like everybody, even my whole team that's known me pre him, after him, like all that were like, oh my God, there you are.

I didn't even realize it.

And then all of a sudden, I was like, oh my god, I'm having like fun.

This is like so much fun.

Like the photographer, Brian Bonesmith, is incredible.

And he really got the message of the album and artistically kind of wrapped that in visually.

Even like

my clothes I was wearing, how I looked, how I laughed, the rock and roll side of me, all of that.

Everything was so different.

And I didn't even realize it until after that you

had

not dumbed yourself down, but like you you had

like belittled who you are to make sure everybody else felt

secure or fine.

You dimmed your light.

You dimmed your light.

Like you,

you like actually dimmed your light.

But I love how you said that.

So because I, cause in the song, I was on, I was, it's funny you just said that because I was in the song, I was like, I don't know if I want to give that power, that control away.

Like wording is so important.

But I did feel that at the time.

It was like you almost took all my light or I I almost lost all my light kind of thing.

But it's like, I turned it into like, you're right.

It's like, I allowed that to happen.

Like, so for people, because by no means am I a victim in that, you allow someone to do that.

You maybe don't notice you're doing it.

And like you said, it's imperceptible.

It's gradual.

And you don't, you don't even realize what's happening because it happened so gradually.

But I like that you said like that, that is the thing.

You, you choose to dim it.

You choose.

And it's like, and I just, I don't know.

I think in life, it's like, if I'm not around people like friends, family, lover, lover, whatever, like that are okay with the amount of light I have, like, then that's, we're just not meant to be together.

You know what I'm saying?

Like, that's okay.

But like to dole yourself

so you feel like somebody else could shine or so you feel like you're not in the way or you're not

whatever the situation is, like

it's not a, that's not a healthy way to live, you know?

Yeah.

Or

and it's not a healthy example for your child to look at you and see that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like we're teaching them what love is, right?

So if you teach them that love is, is quieting yourself so that you can be with like, cause love should actually be the emergence of you, right?

Like you should be more yourself in love than at any other time.

And when we show them that it's the opposite, that's kind of I've never experienced that.

You've never experienced that.

I've experienced love, like deep love, but working through a lot of stuff, I'm like, I don't, I don't think I've ever experienced that.

Yeah.

Like a love that makes you more you.

Is that what you're saying?

You haven't experienced a love that makes you more of you.

Yeah, I don't think I've experienced that.

Like, I don't, I don't think that other than, I mean, speaking with like a significant other, I've experienced that with like friendships or like family.

But like, I, I don't think I've ever experienced that.

And, and honestly, I'm firework and I'm okay with that, but I'm very spontaneous and I'm very communicative and I'm very like, I'm just very.

Like anything, any other, any word that can go with very, generally that.

Like I'm a walking empath i'm just very so you know i think it's got to be somebody that can you know not not i don't want to say the word handle that i mean i think somebody that prizes that that thinks that's cool or if not like i got to be honest with you these past three years like yes they've been hard but i was talking this the other day like the voice rap party obviously i'm moving to new york so i'm not doing the voice right now either so it was like blake and i's like last like thing for a minute and never say never but i just for for me it's probably good for right now it's like it's been nine nine seasons and we were at this rap party and we're all there and everyone's hanging out.

The crew, a lot of those crew are also Kelly Clarkson show crew too.

So like, I just knew a ton of people there, right?

I

had some tequila and I danced for three hours straight, practically.

I had the time of my life.

Because I just, I, there's something freeing about tequila, not having to worry, yes, but not having to worry about, oh, you know, if you're sitting together, oh, are you feeling alone?

Cause I'm dancing and you're not dancing.

Are you feeling like it's always like feeling everybody else's feelings?

And sometimes it's nice just to be alone and just in your own world and experiencing your own bliss and your own.

I literally danced with everyone.

I don't think there's a soul there I didn't dance with.

I mean, I had so much fun and it was just a freeing night because I wasn't in a relationship before my ex.

Like I literally was like basically single.

uh till like 30.

I was like in and out like a like two, but like not really.

It was like months and like, but I just mean like real relationship.

It's really only him.

So I'm pretty good at like rocking life like a loner, like because I like going to different groups of people and different vacations.

I'm just that person, but there's something just so freeing about it.

I think that people from the South, especially, will leave one relationship, jump into another.

And I'm like, I can't do that.

Like, I can't.

I'm not ready for it either.

But like, I, yeah, I can't do that.

When I'm picturing you at the party, I was just thinking, it's because you didn't have somebody who feels weak standing next to you.

Girl, that line.

That line.

Girl.

That line.

I was like, am I going to say this?

Am I going to,

I literally was like, am I going to, am I going to write that?

I said it.

And all the angels began to say

it's so real.

It's so real.

It's very true and honest.

And I feel like a lot of people can relate to that.

And I also feel like it wasn't supposed to be accusatory by any means.

It's just honest.

We're not like, this is not clicking.

Me being able to be the best version of myself or you being able to be the best version of you.

like this is this is not it I know I don't know what it is but this isn't it like but it's a real phenomenon on these conversations together we've had so many powerful discussions about

really powerful women and the men in their orbit not being able to handle it like it just being

at best case accommodating it or acclimating it, but certainly not, as you said, prizing it or celebrating it.

And that line that you had in me, I told you I wanted you, but you needed me to need you.

I'm sorry, ma'am.

Are you picking like every favorite line of mine on my album?

I was like, wait,

oh, your favorite lines are my favorite lines.

That's what I was saying.

I was like, I'm sorry, ma'am.

Wait, what?

I was like, no, that's, yeah.

That's, yep.

I mean, but

why do people need

to be needed instead of instead of

far more impressive and powerful that you would choose, I do not need you.

I am choosing you because I want to be around you.

I crave you.

I don't need you, but there's a difference.

And it, well, it's control is a big player there.

And like manipulation and all those things, those little fun things come into play.

That's the thing that I, I think that broke my heart the most was like, I just think that's the most beautiful thing to say.

And to this person, I've never said that to anyone.

Like, you're the only person I've ever even said that to or felt that for.

How powerful is that?

But it's not enough.

It's not enough for people sometimes.

And that's okay.

That's not how they want to be loved.

And that's not what they need in a relationship.

And that's what it is, you know?

But yeah, that's one of my,

I was like, I'm fitting that in one of these songs because I just, I feel like I said it till I was blue in the face.

I was just like, I,

I don't understand.

I just couldn't comprehend like how you couldn't see that as more beautiful and more,

I don't know, just closer because there's a difference.

Like if somebody's like financially dependent upon someone or if somebody's emotionally dependent upon someone, any kind of dependency, I feel like takes away from like what the core

loving relationship should be.

Like, it's like, no, no, I don't need that, you for any of that.

I'm just

because I want you, not because I need you.

I could freely be giving it to anyone and I'm freely giving it to you and only you.

I think that's so beautiful.

Um, people don't agree.

Like, I'm just gonna be honest, people don't agree.

And I will say this, because I know you point out women, and I do know obviously women with that too, but I know a couple dudes as well that have the same thing happens to men.

You know, they can, till they're blue in the face, say, I I have friends that are like, I can try and make them feel as confident in the relationship, as comfortable.

I can try and try.

And unless they see it in themselves, they're never going to receive it from me.

That happens to a lot of people.

I think that people who depend on being needed instead of wanted, which I get too.

I think it might also come from a lack of any sort of self or self-worth because when you need to be needed, it's transactional.

So you're like, I know what I'm giving you.

You know what you, but if you're just being chosen, that has to be like based on your humanity and not just what you can do for the other person.

And that requires a hell of a lot of self-worth.

And vulnerability.

That happened to me growing up.

I tried to transactionally keep people in my life because I was too afraid to let

whatever the relationship will be be.

I was like trying to control it.

Yeah.

And you didn't want to lose it.

Yeah.

I'm just thinking about the beautiful,

there's so many beautiful things about you.

And I, as I'm listening to you talk, I'm realizing why I love you so much, which is because you hold two things at once all the time.

You're not like a this or this type person.

You're like embracing all of it.

And I'm thinking about how we're taught all of these things that are goodness, that are like hope, belief in people, potential.

falling in love even.

These are all the things that are held up.

And these are the most beautiful things in the world.

And they're what make life living and they're also what fuck us completely, right?

Like yeah, like falling in love.

What the hell?

When we were listening to your album, I think which the song, best kind of high, what's the song that we were listening to?

Favorite kind of high.

Favorite kind of high.

Yeah.

I mean, sister and I were talking about how

we don't get wasted and go buy cars.

Right?

Some people do.

I don't know.

We don't, we're not like, okay, I have to make a huge decision.

Let's go house hunting.

So I'm going to get totally totally shit faced before I go house hunting.

But then we choose our life partners when we are in love, which is just basically being really high.

Right.

What the hell with that?

I don't know, but

I'll tell you why, because there's nothing like it, man.

There is something like in other things.

Like, I mean, if I'm like with motherhood and kids and that kind of, that's a whole other thing.

But with when it comes to like just you, your own world, like significant others others in that sense, like there's nothing like, even the first time I met my ex, he passed by me and I felt altered.

Like I felt like different.

Like it's like, wait, what?

Like, and I was like, well, I've never, I've never felt that before.

I mean, like,

I will take your clothes off with my teeth kind of

like, like that kind of just carnal, like, I'm just like, where did that come from?

You know, and, and that of high, and even in the beginning, and it wasn't for years later, by the way, we didn't even like run into each other again and, like, see, but I, but I wouldn't settle.

Like, that's the difference.

Like, you want to feel something like that, once you know that exists, you're like, well, I'm not settling until I feel that again.

And because we deserve that, that's just such a beautiful, you feel it in your whole body.

It's just a beautiful high that, like, of course, like, we gravitate towards that.

And of course, we make stupid decisions when it comes to that because it feels so good that, you know, it's like, why addicts are addicts i assume as well well i don't assume i love sugar so like i but it's like we're all addicts for some reason um something but but i just mean it feels good and it and it and it makes you feel good there's just nothing like it there's nothing i i have yet to find anything like that kind of high of like you know and then them calling you or you're texting the beginning and like all that kind of stuff it's just it's exciting it feels like the high of clarity like when you but it's the opposite but i but you're also so you're just hyper-focused, yeah, like you're acting like this, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I took your lyrics.

That's so interesting that when you were talking about it's such a shame when our wants and needs don't align, being like, I want to make this work, but it can't work.

took that as because I had the exact same the first time I locked eyes with my first husband.

I was like, well, good night, Moon.

Like, yeah, exactly.

And then a few years later, it was a real kick in the shorts.

Like, it just, it just was.

So, yeah, wake up, boo.

Good morning, son.

But

I took that as like, oh,

some of the things that I want undeniably

are not things that I need.

Yeah.

How do I learn to want what I need instead of to really want what I really don't need?

I know that aspect of self-worth too, though, right?

Like prizing yourself, even if it feels like, okay, back to sugar.

Like, I love sugar, but like, it's not good for you.

So, you know, you do all the things you're supposed to do, but I think you do initially like,

I mean, literally, it's like coming off of a drug like when you stop doing that right so it's like once you get through that the one the tug of war and you get on the other side you feel better you just feel better you feel um more clarity you just feel more um

i don't know grounded you feel less emotional because that's the thing too is like in that kind of relationship you want it but you don't need it it's like if there's always this tug of war happening of like, oh my God, I love you, but God, I hate you.

You are just horrible.

Like, you know, or god i there's nobody i could picture myself being with and then you go back and forth and that's not healthy that's just emotionally being just like

just going nine oh all the time there's no rest like in there so it's the same thing that's why i was making the metaphor like with sugar like i feel like i could be like very emotional like all the time and it's always it changes your body right it's like not good for you right so it's like but you finally get away from that and you realize how okay this actually feels better like you know what i'm doing that actually feels better for me but i think it comes down to for me like

just prizing how you feel instead of how someone makes you feel.

Cause like that can be very confusing.

Yeah.

Especially when it comes to not just love, but lust, you know?

Yeah.

And we're learning a lot about how that initial attraction.

I mean, this is fascinating me lately, that initial, oh,

that's like why do we do it for some people, not everybody, we're all human.

I don't understand.

A lot of people are now teaching us that it's actually more tied to anxiety than love.

Like it's something that's activating inside of us.

It has to do with our original attachment.

So like, I think in like 20 years, we're going to start seeing that first initial rush as less of a sign that of a green go and more of like, a hold on, this could be a red flag.

Like we don't, if we get caught in the middle of an intersection and like cars are going, woof, we're not like, oh, I can't wait to get this feeling back.

Yeah.

You know, because that's like anxiety, danger, danger, fire.

Like there's part of initial lust.

And also, is the problem that we just keep marrying people?

Like, could we just have sex with them?

Do you know what I mean?

Like, is the initial attraction?

Like, do we, maybe we just don't have to keep marrying everyone that we follow.

Well, and that, that's why I'm so glad you said it.

Cause like people right after, like, I mean, right after, like, even like separated, it was announced and it came out.

It's like, oh, hey, I know someone.

I'm like, are you insane?

Better be a really great therapist.

Like, I don't want to talk to anyone right now.

I'm still processing.

And even now, like I said, like, I danced for three hours and then I had such a great night.

And I think people feel, and I also, where I'm from, it's like very, you like someone, then you date them, you love them, you get, you get married, you have children, you receive your pension.

It's like all these, it's like, all these things that are just like boop, boop.

And it's like, that's not how it is for a lot of us.

I was literally having this conversation in the middle of nowhere on my ranch up in the mountains with my mother.

And she was like talking, I don't know, she said, do you think you'll ever get married again?

I don't think she would have said that, but somehow it came up.

And I was like, it's not that I'm against marriage.

I think marriage is beautiful.

I think it's amazing.

I just don't think that it necessarily is for everyone, you know?

I mean, I get why people love.

apple pie, but like, is it my favorite pie?

Do I have to have apple pie?

No.

Like, I don't want it.

I don't like, I don't necessarily want it.

Just because everybody's like, this is the best pie you've ever had, doesn't mean I want to eat it.

I don't feel like everybody needs to do the same thing because we're all at different points in our life.

And even like career-wise, I love having, like you said, a lot of things.

I, I thrive in that environment.

I'm the best version of me when I'm productive.

I'm the best mother.

When I'm productive, I'm just better.

I figured that out for me.

That's not everyone.

Like, and I have goals that I want to do.

I don't have time for marriage.

That's it.

If people think you're just going to get married and it's like going to be, it's work.

It is so much work.

Even if you are in love, like you've never been in love in your life, it is work either way.

It is day in and day out work.

I don't mean to sound, it's not horrible.

I just mean like, it's just a lot of work, like for communication and we're ever changing.

You know, we read something, it inspires us, it might not inspire that person.

They're so annoyed by it.

Why are we all of a sudden that, you know what I'm saying?

I don't know that I'll ever get married again.

I'm not like against marriage.

I would love to fall in love.

I I would love to experience that.

I would love, you know, whatever the future holds is I'm open to it.

But I think people get married all the time.

Like for, for sometimes reasons that they just feel forced.

It's the next step.

That is not why you should get married.

Do you feel in your life these days, like in your work, in your everywhere life, that you're kind of

getting to dance alone now?

Like you don't have to have that double consciousness because your work and when I see you singing and doing your show, it feels very like like you're in your body, you're doing your thing,

like you're dancing.

And did you before have to always make sure you weren't being too successful, you weren't being too me, me, me?

And now you get to just do that without.

I felt limited, yes.

And I don't feel like that's necessarily the truth for all marriage.

I just think that was in my case.

Like I just felt limited.

But if you're.

you know, on the same path at the same time and you're actually working together and every day communicating together and doing the work, I think that it could be beautiful.

But for me, it wasn't that and it was very limiting.

Not to say that that's just his fault.

That's my fault for allowing that to happen.

That's my work as well.

It can also be limiting, like I said, because I maybe as in love as I was, I just wasn't ready, you know, and maybe the other person wasn't either.

And you just try and make it work and it doesn't.

I know.

And I think that we can like dog marriage a little bit.

I know that because we've all had our struggles with marriages before.

But I do think the things that I've learned the most about myself was through the heartbreak of losing a marriage.

There has been nothing in my life that has taught me more about myself.

So like, as much as I do think we need to like be conscious and not necessarily be like.

intoxicated with the in-love feelings before we make the decision to get married.

I do think it's important to note that like, it's not all for naught for those of us who want to do the work.

And it's also in support of marriage Kevin the reason you left your marriage is because you believed that it could be better than it was like when I heard you say

um

I kept trying to make it work but I didn't want to make it work I wanted to make it beautiful

I was like oh my god yes we are all like make it work make it work as if that is the gold standard is that it works I can make a pile of shit work but should I

like I want it to be beautiful.

Yeah.

That's the same thing too.

I was just talking about somebody else in a different area of like under my umbrella.

And it was like, like, yeah, I can take all that on and I could do that, but that's not fair.

And just because I can do it doesn't mean I have to or should.

Like, you know, and here's the thing, too.

I think sometimes we focus so much on finding the person instead of the people because there's no way one person, in my opinion, and I love humans.

I really do.

Even the shitty ones, apparently.

I just, you know, we'll give a lot of leeway.

But it's not about, I don't feel like, I feel like we put a lot on marriage too, like and partnership, like, cause it's like, there's no way somebody is going to be able to accomplish all of that for you.

And there's no way you should put that on them.

I remember even in my marriage, like we would, I would constantly be like, hey, are you going to go hang with your friends?

I'll go hang with my friends.

That is very important.

Instead of isolating each other and just only being you all the time.

Nobody learns in that environment.

If you're having the same conversations with the same people and the same, you know what I'm saying?

Like you need others in your life.

And that's, and when you're in a relationship

and that's not necessarily promoted, that's a giant red flag.

That's why I'm such a big thing on like, you know, you are the group you surround yourself.

Are those people that make you better?

Are those people you would want to be?

Those people, you know, are good for you.

And I feel like that's the thing.

Like, yes, you can choose to spend your life.

And I would love to find a partner, like, to spend my life with and have fun with and go bowling with and drink tequila with and dance with and all that those things.

But at the same time, and also like that loves reading and also that loves just things that I'm really into.

But also I just feel like you don't need to hinge all that on one person.

I think that you can get that from your village of people that you surround yourself with.

So we started this conversation talking about.

the circular lessons we learn over and over again.

I'm so glad you're feeling very fine.

I'm so glad you're going to go here.

It's like a spiral staircase, right?

Life is a spiral staircase.

We keep spinning around, coming around to the same lessons.

And the only thing that's different is that our like thighs are a little stronger.

We're just a little stronger when we get to the next problem.

We have a little bit of a higher perspective, but it's the same shit.

If you had to, at the end of the day, get really honest with yourself,

what lesson did this whole

relationship, and it's not even the relationship, it's who you were in the beginning, middle, and end teach you?

Really, to boil it down, I feel like it's to

not only be honest about those that are around me, but honest about myself.

I think it's honesty because I think,

I mean, by no means do I think I've ever been a liar.

I just mean like, I think we

mold things and shape them to justify them.

instead of just being truly honest about what's really happening because you don't want it to be that way, because once again, your wants and your needs are different.

Right.

So I think it's just being honest about,

I don't really want that.

That's not for me.

And that's cool that you want like, and being okay and comfortable enough, like coming back to what you're talking about, like

coming back to not having transactional relationships and not having

just that, that fear of losing someone if you're so honest with them, because you're going to lose them anyway, if you're not being honest, you know?

So I think honesty, just being really truly honest about who people are, including yourself.

Yeah.

That's a big win for me.

I mean, listen, like you can

talk all the days long.

Your people know you as this lighthouse.

To me, you are truth.

And that is why people are attracted to you, Kelly.

It's because they can see the truth in you and you speak the truth and you are just so open.

and honest.

And I, I just feel so inspired by that.

Not many people in your position, in your industry, are your, are the way you are.

That is why people love you.

I think it's fucking cool.

Thank you.

You're so fucking.

Thank you.

You made me feel cool.

I was like, okay.

No, I love that.

So nice.

Thank you.

I think at a certain age, though, too, right?

We just get tired of trying to make everything shine.

Sometimes a turd's a turd.

Yeah.

Like, you know, it's like, sometimes it's what it is, you know?

So it's okay.

You know, I will tell you that I'm glad no one's ever said to me over and over again, you're the light.

That sounds like bullshit.

That's why you get, you make your reputation, Kelly, as a depressed introvert.

And then no one expects shit from you at a party.

And what's funny is everybody thinks I'm an extrovert.

I am an extrovert, but I think I am by

practice because I am quite an introvert as well.

Like people are always like, hey, let's hang.

I don't hang.

I hang with like literally like my village, like, and then we get it together forcibly because my therapist made me once a week to have a life.

Like we go out, but I'm kind of that way too.

Like I'm a Netflix and chill person.

Like I'm, you know, or I don't know, I'm not as what I think everybody perceives me a lot of the time because I feel like I've just been trained to be that way.

So it's interesting that whole conversation about extrovert or introvert.

Like I feel like we're all a little both.

For sure.

You're on a spectrum.

Well, Kelly, you asked before, like, it's hard to know whether you're doing things right or wrong.

And I don't think that that's the question.

I think you're doing things true.

Yeah.

And that's,

yeah.

And in the spirit of truth, before we end, I'm going to tell you something that my teenage daughter told me after I made an announcement at one of her get-togethers,

which is,

mom, Netflix and chill doesn't mean what you think it means.

If you could stop saying Netflix and chill in front of my friends, that would be great because Netflix and chill does not mean sit on the couch and watch Netflix.

It means have sex.

I would love to Netflix and chill.

No, I'm actually, I'm actually meaning it exactly how

let's just be, let's just keep it real.

Like, yeah, I like to sit on the couch and watch a movie, but I'd also like to do other things.

The movie is followed by having a lot of sex.

Yeah, so next time,

people.

Next time a dude walks by you and you feel altered, we're not going to the altar.

We're going to Netflix and chill.

That's right.

Exactly.

Amen.

We love you, Kelly Clarkson.

It's never

so looking forward to this.

Thank you for having me.

It was a dream.

We love everyone.

Get excited for chemistry.

Chemistry.

Unreal.

Oh, thank y'all for listening.

That means a lot.

So good.

You're the best.

All right.

I love y'all.

Love you too.

Kelly, thank you so much.

See you guys next time.

Bye.

All right.

Bye, y'all.

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I give you Tish Milton and Brandi Carlisle.

I walked through fire,

I came out the other side.

I chased desire,

I made sure I got what's mine.

And I continue

to believe

that I'm the one for me.

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line.

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks are map.

A final destination,

you lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to belong.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a heart pain.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem,

sometimes things fall apart.

And I continue

to believe

the best

people are free.

And it took sometime.

But I'm finally fine.

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

A final destination

lack.

We stopped asking directions

to

places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a heart pain.

Adventures and heartbreaks on that.

We might get lost, but we're okay back.

We've stopped asking directions

in some places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do hard things.

Yeah, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we

can do

hard

things