202. Are You Being Gaslighted? with Dr. Robin Stern

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Speaker 2 And I continue to believe

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Speaker 3 Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Today we are talking about something that the world seems to finally be talking about, which is gaslighting.

Speaker 3 Today we have one of the world's experts on gaslighting. She actually coined the term gaslight effect.
Her name is Dr. Robin Stern.

Speaker 3 And she's going to talk to us today about what gaslighting is, what it isn't, who is most susceptible to gaslighting, and how we can get ourselves out of gaslighting relationships and make ourselves gaslight

Speaker 3 resistant. I cannot wait for this conversation.

Speaker 3 I really

Speaker 3 think that all of my 40s and likely much of my 50s will be about

Speaker 3 un-gaslighting myself and learning to become

Speaker 3 gaslight.

Speaker 3 resistant. That's the refrain, the thesis statement of untamed was I'm not crazy.
I'm a goddamn cheetah, because I think a lot about growing up as a woman is about

Speaker 3 rejecting the idea that there was ever anything wrong with you.

Speaker 3 And so this topic I just find absolutely fascinating. It's what I'm doing in my everyday life, and I can't wait to get some expert advice from Dr.
Robin Stern. Dr.

Speaker 3 Robin Stern is the co-founder and associate director for the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence and an associate research scientist at the Child Study Center at Yale.

Speaker 3 She is a licensed psychoanalyst with 30 years of experience treating individuals, couples, and families.

Speaker 3 She is the author of the Gaslight Effect Recovery Guide, Your Personal Journey Toward Healing from Emotional Abuse.

Speaker 2 Welcome, Dr. Stern.

Speaker 4 Thank you. To start, thank you.

Speaker 4 I am so excited to be here and I can't think of anything I'd rather be doing right now than talking to you amazing women about gaslighting and just surviving hard things yes

Speaker 3 well i'm so grateful to you i know you use

Speaker 3 he and she because in your practice you have seen mostly men gaslighting and women as gaslightees, which is very interesting, of course, because women are conditioned to be more empathic.

Speaker 3 It's not like we're all born gaslighters or gaslightees. We are conditioned, but Abby and I are married and lesbians be gaslighting the shit out of each other.
Okay.

Speaker 3 Most of our friends are two women in couples. Gaslighting abounds.

Speaker 5 Power struggle in relationships.

Speaker 3 Right, right, right.

Speaker 4 I get that. And after I wrote my book, I got a lot of email from people who said, guess what? Yeah.

Speaker 4 You may be seeing this, but it's happening here and here and here. And in the recovery guide, I did add some lesbian couples.
I added some guys who were gaslighted.

Speaker 3 It seems to me that the world has just recently caught up to the work that you've been doing for a very, very long time about gaslighting because you actually coined the term gaslighting effect.

Speaker 3 That was a long time ago. And now it's just so in the zeitgeist.
We're catching up to you. So can you start by explaining to us what the origin of the word gaslighting is?

Speaker 4 Sure. So there was a play in England in 1938 by Patrick Hamilton that was gaslight that was made into a popular movie with Ingrid Bergman and Charles Boyer in 1944.

Speaker 4 And I personally watched that movie maybe a dozen times before I wrote about gaslighting and coined the term gaslight effect. And in that movie, a

Speaker 4 adoring wife allowed her husband to manipulate her objects in the room, lead her to question her sanity, in the service of staying connected to him, in the service of not angering him, in the service of keeping herself in that loving relationship and allowing her own idealization and fantasy to continue.

Speaker 4 And her husband,

Speaker 4 who was a diabolical guy who, in that case, was after her money and her aunt's jewels, was brilliant at manipulating her, at leading her to second guess herself.

Speaker 4 Shortly into the movie, he talks to her about how she's forgetful. And initially, she says, that's so silly.
Of course, I don't forget things. I don't know.

Speaker 4 And then the audience watches him steal a piece of jewelry. He puts it in her, like a bag that she's carrying on their outing.
And we watch her looking for it. We know he stole it.

Speaker 4 And suddenly she's second guessing herself. Well, maybe I am forgetful as she's looking through her bag and you can watch her tension rise.

Speaker 4 And so in like a seven minute clip, you can see the gas light tea going from stage one, that's so silly. Of course I have memory to stage two, maybe he's right.

Speaker 4 I am tired. Maybe I am more forgetful than I thought.

Speaker 4 And so I was just fascinated by that.

Speaker 4 What I was really fascinated by was the similarity as I became a therapist to women I was seeing who were on the outside together and in charge of their lives and seemed confident, just like the Ingrid Bergman character did, in every area of their life.

Speaker 4 And then in this one area, in this intimate relationship, suddenly they couldn't even remember if they remembered correctly.

Speaker 4 And that was fascinating to me. How did this person give over to their power? How did someone else get all that power to tell you

Speaker 4 that what you know is not right that there's something wrong

Speaker 4 and to completely uh beat up on your credibility

Speaker 4 i'd be happy to read for the listeners just the list of red flags that would be wonderful and this is true with a little bit of a

Speaker 4 shift for work and for family too, although as we talked about, family is more complicated. But are you being gaslighted?

Speaker 4 If you answer yes to one or more of these things, then maybe you are.

Speaker 4 You're constantly second-guessing yourself. You ask yourself, am I too sensitive a dozen times a day? You often feel confused and crazy, even at work.

Speaker 4 You're always apologizing to your mother, your father, your partner, your boss. You frequently wonder if you're good enough.

Speaker 4 You can't understand why, with so many apparently good things in your life, you aren't happier.

Speaker 4 You buy clothes for yourself, furnishings for your apartment, or other personal purchases with your partner in mind, thinking about what they would like instead of what would make you feel great.

Speaker 4 You frequently make excuses for your partner's behavior. You find yourself withholding information from friends and family.
So you don't have to explain or make excuses.

Speaker 4 You know something is wrong, but you can never quite express what it it is, even to yourself.

Speaker 4 You start lying to avoid put-downs and reality twists. You have trouble making simple decisions.

Speaker 4 You think twice before bringing up seemingly innocent topics of conversation.

Speaker 4 Before your partner comes home, you run through a checklist in your head to anticipate anything you might have done wrong that day.

Speaker 4 You have the sense you used to be a very different person, more confident, more fun-loving, more relaxed. You feel as though you can't do anything right.

Speaker 4 Your kids try to protect you from your partner. You find yourself furious with people you've always gotten along with.

Speaker 4 You feel hopeless and joyless.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 6 We did an episode where we were talking about my relationships over time.

Speaker 6 And one of the things I talked about is how in one of my relationships, I found myself in this absolutely don't know how I got here insane place where I would literally call my boyfriend and leave him voicemails telling him that I had cursed.

Speaker 6 I was confessing to him in some kind of like, I don't know, plea to absolve me and say that I was okay and good.

Speaker 6 And I don't know how the hell I got there. And after reading your book, I now see it very clearly what was happening to get me to that absolutely extreme place.

Speaker 6 Can you tell us how it looks in relationships when this happens? What is it not? What is gaslighting concretely in a relationship?

Speaker 4 It's the undermining of reality. It's the undermining of the ground you stand on.
So what happens in couples is that it happens a little bit. Think about your own experience.

Speaker 4 When did he say to you, you shouldn't be cursing? I'll help you with that.

Speaker 4 It happens like that, where somebody says something

Speaker 4 and you think

Speaker 4 either that's crazy or maybe, okay, maybe that's a good idea. He's going to help me.

Speaker 4 Or I need this from you. If you loved me, you would.
So does that resonate with you?

Speaker 6 It does. It really does.
The whole going from the place where it's you're flirting with that person, going from the place where you're like, that is preposterous.

Speaker 6 Like you don't have a healthy perception of what's going on versus slowly to the place where you accept, oh no, I must not have a healthy perception of what's going on. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, that's it. We are trained as women to be agreeable.
We are trained to stand in someone else's shoes. We are trained to

Speaker 4 see whether or not we can accommodate. And we have an urge to be like join with that person so that we're seeing the world in the same way.

Speaker 4 And the other thing that I think is so powerful is when someone is that certain and keeps insisting, of course you're flirting. Don't you see how people are responding to you?

Speaker 4 Look at your facial expressions. Like, are you completely unaware of them? Come on.

Speaker 4 Even if you begin to have that opening of maybe he's right.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 What's interesting to me about this is that

Speaker 3 you mentioned too in your work that women can have the double shame. We're being gaslighted, but then we feel double shame that we're supposed to be strong people and how are we being gaslighted.

Speaker 3 But what's interesting to me is that very strong women are often the people who are gaslighted.

Speaker 3 You even point out in your work that it can be a reaction to the idea that, oh, wait, I'm with a woman and her power is greater than mine.

Speaker 3 And so I'm going to correct it by putting her in her place, throwing her off balance.

Speaker 3 Like, Amanda, when I think about that relationship, you were in terms of in high school, more powerful than that guy was in terms of social standing.

Speaker 3 And often in marriages, when a woman is making more money or when a woman is stepping out of line in terms of gender expectations, that's when the gaslighting comes.

Speaker 3 So it's important not to feel shame about having been gaslighted.

Speaker 5 Robin, I have a question about your own personal experience with gaslighting. Would you mind sharing some of that with us?

Speaker 4 Sure.

Speaker 4 So I thought a lot about that in the run-up to coming on the show today also. And I thought, well, was I ever gaslighted as a child?

Speaker 4 And I think

Speaker 4 not so much one-on-one. I don't think either of my parents were gaslighters.
They were critical, but they were loving.

Speaker 4 And yet we had this kind of drama going on in the house where my father, who was either very, very happy or very, very angry. And so it was like okay and normal for him to be very, very angry.

Speaker 4 And everybody would feel okay and normal about like hiding in their bedrooms.

Speaker 4 And so it's a little bit like the gaslighting that goes on in society, which is then makes for fertile ground for individual relationship gaslighting, where you just accept because it is the air you breathe, this thing that seems completely normal that makes you feel scared and terrified some of the time.

Speaker 4 It's not normal. It's not okay.

Speaker 4 So that's a little background

Speaker 4 that I'm actually going to check out with my brother when I get off this podcast. But when I was married to my ex-husband, And he grew up as a pianist.
He had no rules. There were no boundaries.

Speaker 4 He played the piano till whenever he wanted and no one ever told him to stop. He never had to be anywhere on time because, after all, he was an artist.

Speaker 4 So I liked to make dinner and I would like to make dinner at a certain time. And we had kids and we have two, I were two wonderful children.
And

Speaker 4 he would be late, but not just

Speaker 4 five minutes late. 20 minutes late, a half hour late.
And sometimes he'd call after 40 minutes and say, I'm on my way home. And so he would come in and I would say,

Speaker 4 next time, can you please call me? And it would go on like that. I wish you would let me know.
I feel disrespected. Can we talk about your being late? And he would say, you have a problem.

Speaker 4 And he would say that my problem was that I learned things that were false about being late.

Speaker 4 that I learned to associate it with disrespect, that I learned to associate it with not being kind or

Speaker 4 good to the other person. But really, it was just a question of whatever he made up at the time.

Speaker 4 And I thought to myself, that's ridiculous.

Speaker 4 But over time,

Speaker 4 when he would come late to dinner or late to the kids' choral concert or late to the school meeting, and he would tell me, don't start. I'm fine.

Speaker 4 If you have a problem with my being late, maybe you need to see someone about it. And so you could tell the relationship was already devolving anyway.

Speaker 4 But I began to think, and I was writing about gaslighting at the time. Wow.
And I was somebody who was pretty confident in my own perceptions.

Speaker 4 And I was working at a psychoanalytic institute and I was teaching about reality.

Speaker 4 I was teaching what is subjective reality and objective reality.

Speaker 4 And I'm watching this process in my own mind and thinking,

Speaker 4 he's gaslighting me, but what if he's right?

Speaker 2 Yes,

Speaker 4 and it was amazing to me. And I think that I

Speaker 4 managed to be so fascinated by the fact that it was happening that I wasn't really feeling the discomfort about it for quite some time.

Speaker 4 Because you can get into the explanation trap: oh, this is really fascinating. Let's kind of figure this out.
Rather than, I don't like this. Yeah, I don't, I don't want this anymore.

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Speaker 5 So we have people that are listening to this right now and are confused because

Speaker 5 it's not necessarily like the easiest thing to understand, especially when you're being gaslighted. How do you know that you are in a gaslighting relationship?

Speaker 5 And what are the signs and red flags for folks listening to look for?

Speaker 4 Well, thank you for that question and for the reminder that we have people who are listening because I was just here with you.

Speaker 4 I know.

Speaker 3 I love you so much for saying that you were studying it and then you didn't even know it was happening to you because that is a story of my damn life.

Speaker 2 So thank you.

Speaker 4 Yeah, well, if I can't say it here, really, we're gonna say that, right?

Speaker 4 First of all, it is never okay for someone to use anything about you to criticize you. And it's rarely about who's right and wrong.
It's always about how do you feel.

Speaker 4 So if you are in a disagreement with someone,

Speaker 4 which is fine, we disagree with people. We bump up against people.
That's how we know where our boundaries are.

Speaker 4 But if you're suddenly in this disagreement and you feel like you're being psychologically beaten up, it's not okay. It's probably veering into gaslighting because there's a pivot.

Speaker 4 Gaslighting is I say to you,

Speaker 4 hey, you know what? Like you've been avoiding my phone calls. And I'm really uncomfortable with that.
And you say, oh,

Speaker 4 I'm not. Just don't worry about it.
I'm just busy. And then I say it to you again because I'm pretty sure that like that's happening.
And you say to me, you know what? You're too needy.

Speaker 4 You're so sensitive. Like, what's going on with you? Suddenly, and this is for the listeners, the conversation is no longer about

Speaker 4 my trying to have a conversation with you about the fact that I'm feeling neglected by you or rejected by you. Now the conversation is about my sensitivity

Speaker 4 or my neediness. And so I'm walking away from that conversation.
I'm thinking,

Speaker 4 well, you know what? I am.

Speaker 4 And what's really important for listeners and people struggling is that even if you are,

Speaker 4 that has nothing to do with the fact

Speaker 4 that the person you're talking to didn't call you, didn't wait for you, didn't contact you.

Speaker 6 I love your both and strategy. I am sensitive and you are not calling me back.

Speaker 6 I am a very high strung person and you're not pulling your weight because it's so easy to accept the invitation into this parallel argument where you're never going to have your needs met on the thing you originally brought so it's a really nice way to be like you're exactly right and also let's continue to talk about your thing right and and if you're saying that you're not dancing the gaslight tango because you are saying you know what you're right i am sensitive and can we get back to that thing i was talking about before that

Speaker 3 because it's not about the thing it's the gaslightees becoming more invested in changing the gaslighter's perception of them. That's right.
So it's not even about the problem. It's anymore.

Speaker 3 It's about, no, no, no, I don't think I'm that way. And you must agree with me, which you call the urge to merge.
So can you talk to us about how the urge to merge gets us into the gaslight tango?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 In my experience over three decades of working with people, many of whom have suffered and struggled with the gaslight effect.

Speaker 4 One of the hardest places to be is when you can't let go of that desire to change your gaslighter's mind.

Speaker 4 So he tells you, you're so paranoid, or you're too sensitive, or you're too needy, or you're too whatever, and you can't stand that. Like you can't stand that he thinks that of you.

Speaker 4 And you've decided that you can't leave the relationship or you can't create the distance you want. You can't even limit it until you can convince him.
Of course, you're not thinking it through.

Speaker 4 You're just in that moment of, I can't stand that. I always get this image of this one couple I worked with years ago where he would say, she follows me around the house.
Like, that's unacceptable.

Speaker 4 As if her response and her neediness was the problem as opposed to his gaslighting.

Speaker 4 But it does become a problem for the gaslightee,

Speaker 4 because you do have an urge to be joined with your gaslighter. And if he's not going to come over, if you can't go to his side and you're defending yourself, you want him to come to your side.

Speaker 3 So it's the urge to merge a single perspective. It's to merge into a single perspective.
We must have this one perspective.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I mean, we're going to hold hands and look at the world together.
We're going to hold hands and be joined in the way we think about things.

Speaker 4 And when we feel that very strongly, when we have that need very strongly, then we have to agree.

Speaker 4 And most of the time in gaslighting relationships, is if you can't get him to agree, then you're going to agree.

Speaker 3 okay so how does that look in the scenario in which my sister is is

Speaker 3 at a party and she comes back after the party with her ex-boyfriend and her ex-boyfriend says you were flirting i saw you flirting and if she's in her gaslighting phase she says what sister

Speaker 6 Well, it depends how far along I was. Originally, I'd be like, you're crazy.
You have misconstrued that situation. That is not what it is.
but a little farther in it would be

Speaker 6 wait tell me what happened wait who maybe i should go ask my friend if that's what i was doing i think may okay i'm so sorry i made you feel that way

Speaker 6 and then progressing to the point where i would proactively get in front of it i'm sorry for that thing that i didn't do

Speaker 5 and then how does that change your behavior at the party the next time oh you do you just become smaller and smaller.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 4 Become smaller and smaller. And

Speaker 4 first, I'm sorry that you went through that. That sounds like it was most likely very painful.

Speaker 4 And I was wondering what happened between time one and time two. So time one, when you thought, like, don't be silly.
And time two, when you were saying, wait, like, what did you see?

Speaker 4 What happened for you? Did you think about it? at all, or did you just think, I don't know what's wrong with him? He's like really being weird.

Speaker 6 I think it was

Speaker 6 that thing that you're talking about: of the a good person and good woman seeks to empathize and seeks to understand the other perspective. And I love him.
So I don't want to upset him.

Speaker 6 And so this is clearly upsetting to him. So whether or not I'm intending or actually doing this thing has very little to do with whether he's upset.

Speaker 6 So I just need to change my behavior so that he doesn't get upset.

Speaker 4 Yeah, exactly, because it's really important that he never gets upset because when he gets upset, he tells you there's something wrong with you.

Speaker 4 A woman came to therapy and said to me, my boyfriend told me that if when we walked down the street, he'd like me to look down at the pavement because if I look at the pavement,

Speaker 4 then I won't be flirting with anyone else. And I don't really think I'm flirting with people, but like now when we go into a restaurant, I always take the chair facing the wall.

Speaker 4 And when I'm walking down the street, he asked me to do that. And

Speaker 4 what do you think?

Speaker 4 And it was very hard.

Speaker 4 And I can tell by your facial expressions that you get that it was very hard

Speaker 4 for this woman because it's true that if she looked at the pavement

Speaker 4 it that gaslighting wouldn't happen because he would never be triggered because she'd never do anything because she'd always be joined with him

Speaker 2 yeah

Speaker 3 you say in your work that gaslighting is always the creation of two people

Speaker 3 the gaslighter who sows confusion and doubt and a gaslightee who is willing to doubt their own perceptions to keep the relationship going

Speaker 3 Okay, let's talk about that because

Speaker 3 one of the things that makes me uncomfortable with that

Speaker 3 definition

Speaker 3 is that for me, I feel like I learned how to be a gaslighty as a child, right?

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 3 And by the way, I think a lot of old parenting was just gaslighting. Like parents telling you, don't you, what's happening is not what you think is happening.
Mommy's not tired. Mommy's not angry.

Speaker 3 Daddy's not like just all. I think parenting could be constant gaslighting.
But I feel like as a child, I was gaslighted plenty, but I didn't have the power to leave.

Speaker 4 But you're asking two different questions. One is like, do you have responsibility in getting into it?

Speaker 4 And then the second is, do you have agency to get out? Right. So when I say you need to be willing, you're complicit, complicit, and it's not victim blaming.

Speaker 4 I mean, those of us who have been targeted did not wake up one morning and say, you know, this sounds like a good idea.

Speaker 4 I think that like, I'll look for a gaslighting relationship and I'll be open to it. No.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 4 when what's most important

Speaker 4 is to preserve the relationship.

Speaker 4 when what's most important is to mirror this guy so he feels like you're empathic with him so he's not going to be angry at you and use the emotional apocalypse of threatening you or blaming you, criticizing you.

Speaker 4 Then that allows you to walk into the dance. It allows you to say,

Speaker 4 well, tell me what I'm doing. Like I won't do it again.

Speaker 4 Which you might have come to that conclusion.

Speaker 4 Anyway, look, if it makes you really uncomfortable and it doesn't seem like it's too much for you to give up, maybe you would say that, but not while you're being put down and undermined because of it.

Speaker 4 So when using the word willing,

Speaker 4 my hope is that people will know if they can walk into it, they can walk out of it.

Speaker 3 So, this is not then applying to kids, because kids can't walk in and out of a family.

Speaker 4 That's right.

Speaker 4 And in a family, it's very confusing because most of the time when you're growing up in your family, as I was describing my own family, where like

Speaker 4 angry explosions are just like, that's normal.

Speaker 2 Well, it's kind of not, right?

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 parents saying, you're not hungry, you're tired, telling you what you feel, or teaching you over time that you don't know how to trust your feelings and you shouldn't, in fact, trust your feelings, or lying about their own, no, no, no, I'm fine when you just heard your mom crying on the phone.

Speaker 4 So when you're a child and you grow up, and even worse, when you grow up where the gaslighting is about, you're worthless. You're just so lazy.
You're not going to find anyone.

Speaker 4 And then that becomes your self-talk. And that becomes the scared feelings, your vulnerable feelings that you never want to share with anyone, keeping you at a distance in all relationships.

Speaker 4 But when you can begin to critically think,

Speaker 4 And it has to be taught to you, maybe you don't leave, but then you say, I'm I'm not having those conversations with my mom anymore.

Speaker 3 I'm so amazed by this whole concept because I don't feel like I've ever truly been in a relationship until now where I wasn't actively being gaslighted.

Speaker 3 I think it's the work of our lives to believe that we have a self

Speaker 3 that there's no right or wrong, that is experiencing life in a certain way.

Speaker 3 I mean, I just had a conversation with my therapist this week where I was, I'm struggling in this one relationship and I'm scared to tell the person that this thing they're doing is bothering me and this thing they're doing is bothering me.

Speaker 3 And my therapist said, Glennon, if 10 other people think that person's behavior is perfect, but it's bothering you,

Speaker 3 you get to say it. And to me, I'm just thinking, but what if I'm too sensitive? What if, why is what I'm saying right and hers wrong? Like, what gives me the right to even say anything?

Speaker 3 I just think this is like varsity level stuff.

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Speaker 6 Can I ask you what the difference is between gaslighting and then two people who are in a relationship that just have a different perspective?

Speaker 6 I think part of the issue here is what seems like subtlety and like, oh, are we not allowed to have a different perspective or else we're deemed to be gaslighting? What is the hallmark

Speaker 6 of gaslighting that differentiates it from that?

Speaker 4 The undermining of who you think you are or something about you. It's not that you have a different opinion.
It's that you don't know how to think straight.

Speaker 4 Of course we have a different opinion about this because you don't know how to think straight. And here are the multiple examples of how you don't know how to think straight.

Speaker 4 Or you say that,

Speaker 4 but nobody would agree with you.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 So the moment is you're so paranoid.

Speaker 4 That's right.

Speaker 3 It's the moment where the thing jumps from the issue straight to the person, the other person's character.

Speaker 4 Character or sanity or perception or feelings.

Speaker 5 And the whole purpose for the gaslighter is to retain power and control.

Speaker 3 By destabilizing.

Speaker 5 By destabilizing the gaslight T.

Speaker 4 Yes. Thank you for that because it's a really important piece.
We forget that not all gaslighters are diabolical. Many of them are just like feeling fragmented in the moment on the spot.

Speaker 4 I got caught in something. And so how do I stabilize myself? How do I become what we call clinically

Speaker 4 cohesive? How do I bring myself together? How do I stand on the ground myself? Well, I'm going to do that by destabilizing you.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 6 I think think of it like a tug of war where the gaslighter is pulling on this side and saying, you're ridiculous. That doesn't make sense.
You never make sense. You're paranoid.

Speaker 6 And if you are pulling saying, no, I'm not here. Let me prove it to you.
I'm not. Let me show you.
Then that is what keeps the connection there. Whereas if the gas lady was just like.

Speaker 6 You're nuts. I don't know what you're talking about and let go.

Speaker 6 There would be no more connection there.

Speaker 4 There would be no more of the the thing that the gaslighter needs which is to keep you hanging on to keep you pulling exactly exactly did you feel that in your relationship where there was that like he needed to keep you by controlling you right yes yeah

Speaker 4 and so the minute you decide that you don't have to do that

Speaker 4 uh is the same minute or the minute after you decide that you can live without him.

Speaker 6 And often you think you're devoted to the person, but you're actually more devoted in the relationship to the perception of yourself as good and sane. Yes.

Speaker 6 So you realize that you can actually take that with you.

Speaker 6 You're not losing as much in letting go of the relationship as you think you stand to lose, which you think is your whole perception of your standing.

Speaker 4 Exactly. And that's so important.
And it's one of the reasons why it often takes a third person.

Speaker 4 who comes in and says, what are you doing?

Speaker 4 This isn't like, you're not the same person you used to be. Like I never see you anymore.
This is crazy. And suddenly you realize that some of what you need,

Speaker 4 it's already there inside of you. And some of what you need can come from someone else.

Speaker 3 And are we more susceptible to gaslighting within romantic relationships because we're so isolated in them? Like I,

Speaker 3 with friendships,

Speaker 3 We don't feel a disloyalty by going outside of the friendship and saying, hold on, can I run this by you? Because she just did this and I feel like weird about this.

Speaker 3 But in our marriages, we've created this culture where we feel disloyal

Speaker 3 discussing. When you feel disloyal, discussing anything, you are susceptible to being in this weird little cult.

Speaker 4 Right. That's right.
And then the worse it gets in your relationship or the more you feel ashamed.

Speaker 4 or the more you have those very vulnerable feelings that you don't want to share, or the crazier your gaslighter seems you certainly don't want to tell your friends about it because you know what they're going to say the more isolated you become and so it just begins to feed on each other and what's amazing and i wonder amanda whether this was true for you too like at the very beginning of a relationship there are signs

Speaker 4 somebody does something that you just think this is off

Speaker 4 but you're not paying attention to that at that moment because what you're paying paying attention to is: I'm so attracted to him. I think he's my soulmate.
Oh my God, he's so smart.

Speaker 4 I've never been able to have a conversation like this. He's so kind.

Speaker 4 This is what I hear in my practice. He knows how to be intimate.
Like, I just need to be with him.

Speaker 5 Do you think it's like impossible in relationships to not have moments of being gaslighted or being the gaslighter?

Speaker 5 Because it feels like when I was reading your book, I just kept thinking, oh my gosh,

Speaker 5 how many times I was gaslighted, gaslighted, or also, which is more scary for me to think about,

Speaker 5 is how many times I've been the gaslighter. And I haven't, I didn't know I was doing it.

Speaker 3 I felt that when I was reading, I was like, oh, I've done this.

Speaker 3 I've done this with Abby even, where she's come to me with a fear about our relationship that has cut so deep for me and made me so scared about who I was that I have then created a case for why that's not the case.

Speaker 3 And then she will say, I can't win this. I'm just, I'm hurt.
I can't win this.

Speaker 4 That's not an unimportant thing that you just said. The fact that you would say, Abby, I'm hurt.
I can't win this. I'm hurt.
Like you're sharing your authentic self.

Speaker 4 You are able to have an authentic conversation. You trust enough that you can share your feelings.

Speaker 4 That's different than in a relationship where you really feel that every time you open your mouth, like, oh, there you go again, using your psychology on me, you know, or something.

Speaker 3 One of the things that I took so much that hit me in the heart was when you talk about how in a gaslighting relationship,

Speaker 3 whether it's with a romantic partner or your mother, it's

Speaker 3 what happens is you become obsessed with the argument about this relationship is whether I am bad with money or good with money. Like my point here is, am I bad or good with money? Am I bad or good?

Speaker 3 Am I bad or good? Instead of saying, do I feel bad or good in this?

Speaker 3 Do I feel bad? I don't like this, regardless of whether I'm right or wrong. I don't like how this feels so unlike.

Speaker 4 And it's such a familiar story. You know, you go on a date with somebody or you meet someone for the first time.
You have a great connection and you go out to dinner.

Speaker 4 you write a nice note saying, great to meet you. And you don't hear from that person.
And then a week later, that person calls you and says, you know, let's get together again.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 you're not thinking to yourself, do I want to get together with somebody who waited a week to respond to my text?

Speaker 4 Do I like that?

Speaker 4 And maybe the first time you say, okay, you know, who knows, maybe she had COVID, maybe she was on a business trip, maybe whatever.

Speaker 4 But when somebody regularly treats you like that, we are more like, What's going on with her? You know, I wonder why she doesn't respond right away.

Speaker 4 I wonder if she had a bad experience with a relationship

Speaker 4 or a controlling mother or you know whatever it is that we can entertain ourselves and i mean that we're literally with the drama that it becomes the drama becomes fascinating and we completely forget

Speaker 4 that our heart is hurting

Speaker 4 And we forget to just tune into our own feelings.

Speaker 6 Yeah, we get caught in the question of whether we are justified in feeling bad

Speaker 6 as opposed to just saying, do I feel bad? And if I feel bad, it doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 It doesn't matter.

Speaker 4 As if you have to be justified. Why do we can't we just be? I mean, we are who we are, right?

Speaker 3 I do wonder if I were not in a gaslighting tango with the world,

Speaker 3 would

Speaker 3 My thesis statement of untamed have been, I'm not crazy, I'm a goddamn cheetah. That's what it was.
Or would the next phase be,

Speaker 3 okay, if you think I'm crazy, regardless of whether what you think, I'm a goddamn cheetah, I'm going to

Speaker 4 go ahead and

Speaker 4 cheetah.

Speaker 3 No longer arguing. The point is not whether I'm crazy or not.
The point is, I have an inside. that has feelings and experiences.

Speaker 3 And I am going to create my life.

Speaker 3 You have a visualization in the book that moved me so much, where you just close your eyes and you imagine that everyone around you is a safe person, that you only allow people in that make you feel good.

Speaker 3 And it was so beautiful in terms of like, that's actually how we get to live. No matter if we're right or wrong about our reactions to people, no matter if we're good or bad, we get to

Speaker 3 decide who feels good and warm to us without justification.

Speaker 4 every day

Speaker 4 exactly

Speaker 6 maybe i'm crazy i'm a goddamn cheetah that's it

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Speaker 6 Robin, is there a way that you could run through the three types of gaslighters for us? Because I had never heard about the glamour gaslighter.

Speaker 6 And I think that people are probably in their heads seeing the Intimidator gaslighter. But I think the other two are really illuminating for folks.

Speaker 4 I agree. The Intimidator is easy to spot because he's intimidating.
He's cursing. Sadly, he may get violent.
It's something that you need to watch for.

Speaker 4 and just nasty and critical and uses tone of voice and body posture, physical distance to make sure that you stay connected, you stay in line, that he's right.

Speaker 4 But the Glamour Gaslighter, he's just all about the show.

Speaker 4 He was just so cute. He brought his girlfriend flowers all the time and they'd have these blow-ups.
And then she wouldn't hear from him for a while. And she would be just on the verge of saying,

Speaker 4 this is not okay,

Speaker 4 or I don't like this. And then he would arrive at her house and she would start to complain and he would say you know i love you

Speaker 4 come on it's not really a big deal so it was four days but look what i bought you

Speaker 4 some people might say you know what honey i don't want to give from you right now rather you just treat me well so save a gift for a time we're in a good place

Speaker 4 but When you feel like your glamour gaslighter is larger than life, he's your soulmate, you've never met anyone as amazing, And you have that kind of idealizing going on.

Speaker 4 And he's a man of grand gestures, making you feel like you are the only person in the world for him at that moment. It's easy to fall into.
And then the good guy, Gaslighter, was

Speaker 4 so nice, very affable, very pleasant,

Speaker 4 can tell you you're crazy with a smile on his face.

Speaker 4 So when you walk away and you may have like a weekend-long argument, thinking of a couple I worked with who argued for the whole weekend until Sunday night from Friday night about whether or not they would visit her parents.

Speaker 4 And he really didn't want to go when he talked to her about how attached she felt to her parents and that was so wrong and she had real issues with it.

Speaker 4 And in the end, he said, all right, we're going to go.

Speaker 4 And you've convinced me. We're going to go.

Speaker 4 She was exhausted.

Speaker 4 She was exhausted in the relationship. And yet she felt like she had nothing to complain about because everyone liked him.
He's a nice guy, mild-mannered,

Speaker 4 agreeable, smile on his face.

Speaker 6 And the way you described that was so huge to me because, okay, so we got the good guy. He agrees to go.
Fine, we'll go to your mom's. We'll go to your mom's.
He goes to your mom's. He sits

Speaker 6 pouty, stone-faced in the corner and doesn't interact with anyone.

Speaker 6 Then you can tell he's not engaging, he's not having a good time, get in the car, pretend like nothing's wrong. You say,

Speaker 6 what the heck with that? And he says, what are you talking about? What are you talking about? It's never good enough for you. I agree to go to your mom's.
I sit there.

Speaker 6 You are projecting this stuff that I didn't have fun. I sat there and I enjoyed myself and it's never good enough for you.

Speaker 6 So you can't ever put your finger on the actual receipt for why you feel upset.

Speaker 4 So you feel even crazier because it's unprovable that's right because you can't point to the monster who just said to you you're a bitch yeah the nice guy just went to visit your parents and so you end up in the therapist's office yeah and you say

Speaker 6 i don't know yeah because you're like i can't explain it it's just his energy and then the glamour one it is so subtle too because the person who's showing up and quote unquote doing things for you but they are not connected with what you need or want or even the way that you feel.

Speaker 4 Absolutely. Yes.

Speaker 6 They're more about that person's perception of themselves and what a good partner would do as opposed to meeting you anywhere where you are.

Speaker 6 So again, you're in the therapist's office being like, I don't know, I'm kind of just really pissed at my person because they just brought me flowers.

Speaker 6 And you feel like a complete crazy person because what you really wanted was them to just sit with you and talk with you.

Speaker 6 But somehow things aren't lining up and you can never, ever put your hands on what the thing is.

Speaker 4 Yeah, there's no connection because it's all a show for him. It's about him wanting to be the glamour gaslighter bringing you flowers.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 An important question I just think over and over again that is in your work is. It's not about being a perfect person.

Speaker 3 The point is not whether he's right or you're right, but whether or not you want to live like this and feel like this.

Speaker 4 That's right.

Speaker 3 The second you stop deciding who's right, who's wrong. And if you switch to, do I want to live like this and feel like this?

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I know that so much of this is about abusive relationships and romantic situations, but on some level, I just feel like

Speaker 3 women in general

Speaker 3 are in gaslighting relationships and the gaslighter is the world.

Speaker 3 That is truly like in my bones how I feel that

Speaker 3 so much is, you know, why are you angry? Why are you, why are you tired? Why are you controlling? Why, as a, you know, and I feel responsible to the pod squad right now to say to you that,

Speaker 3 Robin, if there were a collection of sensitive human beings, like if this is the convention, you're at it. The pod squad is a convention of sensitive human beings on the planet.
And that is true.

Speaker 3 And sensitivity is a badge of honor. And also,

Speaker 3 if you have been telling yourself that you're just sensitive your entire life,

Speaker 3 labeling your sense, yourself as oversensitive is also a really good way for the rest of the world to get off the hook

Speaker 3 for their behavior. I recently said to a therapist,

Speaker 3 she said, well, let's not forget that you're sensitive. And I said, But also, like,

Speaker 3 is that the whole truth? Is the narrative of my life that I'm sensitive or just that I noticed some bad shit?

Speaker 3 I think two things can be true at once. We can be sensitive human beings, and that can be a

Speaker 3 beautiful, wonderful thing, but let's not use it as an excuse.

Speaker 4 And just by the way, I would say the narrative of your life is about boldness and courage and kindness and putting good things in the world.

Speaker 5 That's right.

Speaker 3 Thank you, Robin. I feel very ungaslighted by you.

Speaker 3 You're wonderful. I think that your work is the work of our lives as women.
Thank you.

Speaker 4 I really appreciate it. I just had a feeling that I would love all of you and love being with you.
And I do. And I appreciate your questions and applaud what you're doing.

Speaker 4 When I told my sister-in-law today that I was going to be on your podcast, she said, oh my God, I listen to every one of my podcasts.

Speaker 4 So I was very excited.

Speaker 2 What is her name?

Speaker 4 Well, her name is Jackie Stern.

Speaker 6 Jackie, we love you, Jackie.

Speaker 3 Thank you for listening. Pod Squad, this week, please just remember that you are real.
Your feelings are real. The point is not, do they have a point?

Speaker 3 The point is, do I like the way this feels?

Speaker 4 That's right. Do I like the way this feels? Do I want to do it again? Yeah.
Do I not like this way? Feels? I'm not going to do it again. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And no need to present a case. That's it.

Speaker 4 No need to collect evidence. Self-compassion.
Present self-compassion.

Speaker 3 Love you. See you next time.

Speaker 3 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things.

Speaker 3 First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

Speaker 3 To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

Speaker 3 This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

Speaker 3 We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 3 We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. I give you Tish Melton and Brandi Carlisle.

Speaker 3 I walked through fire.

Speaker 2 I came out the other side.

Speaker 2 I chased desire,

Speaker 2 I made sure I got what's mine.

Speaker 2 And I continue

Speaker 2 to believe

Speaker 2 that I'm the one for me.

Speaker 2 And because I'm mine,

Speaker 2 I walk the line.

Speaker 2 Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on map

Speaker 2 A final destination

Speaker 2 We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 2 to places they've never been

Speaker 2 And to be loved, we need to be known

Speaker 2 We'll finally find

Speaker 2 our way back home.

Speaker 2 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 2 that our lives bring,

Speaker 2 we can do a hard game.

Speaker 2 I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

Speaker 2 I'm not the problem.

Speaker 2 Sometimes things fall apart.

Speaker 2 And I continue

Speaker 2 to believe

Speaker 2 the best

Speaker 2 people are free.

Speaker 2 And it took some time,

Speaker 2 but I'm finally fine.

Speaker 2 Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that

Speaker 2 Our final destination

Speaker 2 we lack

Speaker 2 We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 2 to places they've never been

Speaker 2 And to be loved we need to in all

Speaker 2 We'll finally find

Speaker 2 our way way back home.

Speaker 2 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 2 that our lives bring,

Speaker 2 we can do a hard pain.

Speaker 2 Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

Speaker 2 We might get lost, but we're okay with that. We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 2 in some places

Speaker 2 they've never been.

Speaker 2 And to be loved, we need to be known.

Speaker 2 We'll finally find our way back on.

Speaker 2 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 2 that our life

Speaker 2 brings,

Speaker 2 we can do hard things.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we can do hard things.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we

Speaker 2 can do hard

Speaker 2 things.