171. VP Kamala Harris: Our Post-Roe World & What’s Next

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The fact that you're doing this with us is just...

Are you kidding?

Seriously, you know, there's so much about this issue that

has to be about all of of us reminding

people they're not alone.

Yes.

The way you have constructed this show,

this thing you've done, it's very accessible.

So, in the privacy and the quiet of their own moment, whatever that might be, while they're taking a walk, or they're jogging, or they're working, or they're driving.

And I think that's really critically important because there's so much stuff out there: disinformation, misinformation,

judgment

that is

causing people, and then after years of a pandemic, causing people to feel very alone.

Yes.

And, you know, when you feel alone, when people feel alone,

it makes them feel small.

It's very disempowering.

And when we can remind them they're not alone and they're part of a community that cares about them, it's empowering.

Yeah.

It's a hug, but it's more than a hug.

Yeah.

Like, they want to lift you up.

Yeah.

You know, get up out of that chair, shoulders shoulders, back, chin up.

Yeah.

Well, we are dumbfounded with excitement and gratitude today because we have the absolute honor to be in conversation with a woman who can, has,

and will continue to do very hard things, Vice President Kamala Harris.

Vice President Harris is the highest ranking elected woman in U.S.

history, the first South Asian American senator, and the first woman or black American to be the California Attorney General.

Yet, among all her titles, she most cherishes the honor of being the daughter of Shamala Gopalan Harris, who taught her to never back down from a righteous fight.

And thank God for that, because she is leading what we believe to be the movement of our generation.

the movement for reproductive justice.

And she is inviting all of us to join her.

Thank you.

Thank you for being with us, Vice President Harris.

It is my joy and honor.

Thank you.

And thank you for your voice for all of you.

This is a moment for

all of us to understand our power

as an extension of our rights

and to join together.

in sisterhood and fellowship among all people regardless of gender to speak up.

So thank you.

It's great to be with you guys.

You do it all the time.

You speak up all the time.

Thank you.

This weekend would have been the 50th anniversary of Roe, which held that

our constitutional right to privacy included abortion.

And this protection allowed us to control our own bodies, plan our own families, and make the futures of our choosing.

In Dobbs, The court eviscerated that liberty with a stroke of a pen.

When the three of us us heard that, we were stunned, grieved, terrified,

and we called each other first.

How did you feel when you heard the news?

And who did you call first?

So I was on my way that day to Illinois to be with Congressmember Lauren Underwood to continue the work that we have been doing together.

And before that, I'd been doing on maternal mortality.

So I was on my way to do the work of highlighting one of the great

longstanding issues in our country, which is that women are unnecessarily dying in connection with childbirth, with particular impact on black women who are three times more likely to die, Native women, twice as likely to die, rural women, one and a half times more likely to die.

And the decision came down.

And I called my husband immediately

because he's about the only person I could call with the furor

that I had in a most unrestrained way

with language that did honor to that fear.

Yes, the correct language for the moment.

Yes.

And I just, you know, I've seen a lot.

I, I,

I,

in many ways, there is very little that surprises me, but I was shocked.

We knew from the leaked opinion that it was likely to happen.

But

when something actually does happen, that is so outrageous.

And, and, you know, and the contrast for me that day when I heard about it was here I am going to to work on an issue that has been long ignored and the hypocrisy

of these people who

pretend and put themselves out as caring about the sanctity of life,

but have been wholly absent in those numbers when it comes to the fact that women are dying every day in America.

in connection with childbirth.

So there were many layers to how I was feeling at that moment.

And,

you know, but it's also one of those moments that we just resolve, okay, got it.

We're going to have to fight.

So right after Roe was overturned, you hit the road to meet with everyday citizens and activists and state lawmakers in red, blue, and swing states to witness and understand

the real personal impact of the reversal of Roe.

How are people already being hurt by this?

In profound ways.

Let's start with just

if we can pull back the subject at hand.

So

among the many

roots, if you will,

that are part of this issue in terms of what's behind it, it is

the judgment

that has existed probably since the beginning of time about women's sexuality.

I love that we're going here.

Yes.

Right?

Yes, let's do it.

And then the associated

judgment that is designed to make her feel bad

and or embarrassed and or in some way subversive or an outcast.

And the net effect of that on this issue and many other associated,

but on the issue of

abortion or an unwanted pregnancy is to make her feel as though she did something wrong.

And so

I say this as maybe a long way of saying

God only knows the stories we don't know.

Because

those

people are not telling their stories because they feel so,

and then what is the word?

It might be embarrassed, they might feel that they will be judged, they might feel they've done something wrong, and they will therefore silently suffer.

And the stories have been the story of, for example, the tragedy of the 10-year-old girl who was molested

and had to leave the state of Ohio to seek help in another state.

The doctor in that state who I have talked with is now, has been facing threats to her life and is now facing a threat that she may lose her medical license.

And let me tell you something.

I, for a large part of my career as a prosecutor, specialized in

violence against women and children.

The idea that there would be laws being passed,

like in Florida, where I'm about to go,

that would make no exception for rape or incest is immoral.

Because again, let's break it down.

What has happened to that individual is that their body has been violated.

They have been denied the ability to have power over their own body to decide whether they want to engage in this act.

It is one of the most horrendous crimes because of the outrageous nature of the act,

which is a violation of someone's body.

And then, so-called leaders, sanctimonious,

are suggesting that, and after that has happened, you who has endured and survived that act will not have a choice over what happens to your body if you choose or need to have an abortion,

compounding the very violation that is about bodily autonomy and the right all people should have to live in a way that allows them to make certain fundamental decisions about their life.

So there are so many layers to this issue in terms of what makes these proponents of Dobbs and these laws that are being passed just wrong.

Because here's the bottom line.

The government should not be telling people what to do about their own bodies.

And one does not have to abandon their faith or deeply held beliefs to agree the government should not be telling her what to do.

Let her make that decision with her priest or pastor or rabbi.

Let her make that that decision if she chooses with her loved ones.

But the government

does not have a right to be making that decision for her.

That is such an important piece of this to show that

reproductive justice is actually

religious liberty.

Yeah.

Because there,

as you said, the Jewish teachings,

the overturning of Roe violates thousands of years of teachings.

One of the cases that went up with Roe

was actually the opposite, where the army was trying to tell a woman that she had to get an abortion to keep her job.

So it's the flip side of the same coin.

It has nothing to do with the actual procedure.

It's the choice of what your body will and will not do.

Exactly.

And

the point that you are making that I think we all have to make repeatedly to all of our friends is

this movement about allowing people to make this decision and choose for themselves is not a movement to convert people

in terms of their religious beliefs.

This is not what that is.

It is simply to say, you do

what you believe and what your faith dictates.

and leave the others to do what their faith and their beliefs dictate.

That's right.

And in that way, it is such a fundamental point, which is about one of the foundational concepts and principles upon which our country was founded.

Freedom and liberty.

I say, take back the flag on this issue.

This is about freedom and liberty.

Yes.

Yes.

Right?

That's right.

I mean, what we have learned from black and brown intersectional activists from the beginning is that reproductive justice doesn't have to do with a particular law or a particular particular legislation.

When we back up, as Monica Ray Simpson of Sister Song says, this is about full-scale liberation.

It is about the ability to walk through the world and do what we must do and be safe in doing it.

And I think if we all can understand that

it is about the full-scale liberation that is the use and enjoyment of your life as you see it,

everyone can get behind that.

There's a phrase for that,

which is self-determination.

Yes, I've heard that.

Right?

How about that?

Right?

How about that?

Self-determination.

If we think about it again, going back to

just the point about who are we as a country, what do we stand for?

What do we believe in?

What was our reason for being?

It was about self-determination and freedom and liberty.

It was about working against the idea that the government would be big brother and make decisions, fundamental decisions for you about your life and those things that are, in particular, the most private aspects of life.

One other way of thinking of it is that individuals should have the right to make decisions about the matters of heart and home.

So that's about who you marry.

It's about what you choose to do within the privacy of your home that is not about hurting anyone else,

but the choices that you rightly should have the ability to make, the freedom to make.

And our homes are our bodies.

Yes.

Our homes are our bodies.

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We were talking about how this is the first time in history that the Supreme Court has reversed itself to take back a constitutional right from the American people.

And we know this is not the end of that, but the beginning.

So what will extremist Republicans do next to restrict our reproductive liberties?

And will it include contraception and IVF?

So Clarence Thomas

said the quiet part out loud.

In the decision, in the Supreme Court Dobbs decision, Clarence Thomas said the quiet part out loud, which

this calls into question the right to contraception and the right to marry the person you love.

And so we should all take that very seriously.

Thankfully, Congress did on the second piece,

and we passed then a bill that Congress passed, which the president quickly and joyfully signed into law, protecting the fundamental right to marry the person you love.

But the right to access contraception, I mean, literally, we should be understanding and all people of any gender should be understanding.

Let's be clear about this.

It is about the decision that you should be able to make about whether or not you get pregnant or whether or not you want to get somebody else pregnant.

And in that way, again, all genders should be concerned about this.

Speaking about being concerned about things.

So my sister just mentioned what Monica Ray Simpson said about reproductive justice.

Bayard Rustin, a queer key strategist in the 1960s civil rights movement, said, we are all one.

And if we don't know it, we will learn the hard way.

Yes.

We know you've talked about the intersection between voter suppression and abortion restrictions.

If we care about abortion rights and we don't want to keep learning the hard way, who else must we care about?

And what other issues do we need to make our own?

So

I love Venn diagrams.

We have heard.

So

one day I might write a book.

I love Venn diagrams.

So

the three circles, right?

And how they overlap.

And so on this issue, and that's about intersectionality.

It's about also the beauty of understanding that the vast majority of us have so much more in common than what separates us.

And when we can see it, whoa, the opportunity for coalition building and building community.

And reminding us we're not in this alone.

We're all in this together.

Not to mention what I think should be the edict to all of us, which is to say no one should ever be made to fight alone.

Right?

We must stand up for each other.

That's right.

And the rights that each is entitled to.

So on the Venn diagram,

I asked my team, let's look at where the attacks are coming from.

And when we look at where the attacks are coming from, what we find is that from the same place that you see an attack on a woman's right to make decisions about her body, you will see attacks on voting rights,

attacks on LGBTQ rights.

If you want to put a fourth circle on there, it's an interesting exercise to then figure out who's engaged in book bans.

Right?

And what that should tell us is, again, that there is a very significant overlap overlap in each one of these fights.

And these fights, one might ask, what are they about?

They're about freedom.

They're about liberty.

They are also about dignity.

They're about dignity.

And the dignity to which each person is entitled

is part of their existence.

Should not have to be earned

as part of one's existence.

One must be and should be entitled to dignity.

Because the dignity is not, no one is out there saying, this is an easy decision, willy-nilly.

What they are saying is that it's precisely because this is such a difficult decision

that it is yours to make in consultation with whomever you trust.

And that is why

I believe it's about dignity because it's about about trustworthiness on this spectrum of who can make this decision.

That's an excellent point.

You can be trusted with this decision.

And when you cannot be,

we have to pull back all those rights

because you as a human are not as trustworthy as this other set of humans.

who presumably are, because as you have pointed out, it's real hard to think of a law that limits a man's control over any part of his body.

I once asked that question.

Yes, I do remember that.

That was a good moment for all of us.

Yes.

I've only been replaying it almost every day since.

Yeah.

It's, I, it's absolutely, you're spot on right.

I, it just, it's about

also looking at, again,

there's historical precedents for this,

sadly.

But without going through all the history on this, which is depriving, for example, women of the ability to vote, to own property, all kinds of things, right?

Let's put all of that aside.

It is also in the context, this issue of the fact that the trajectory of our nation, the direction of our nation,

has hopefully always been about making progress.

Progress as defined by many things, including the expansion of rights,

not the restriction of rights.

That's good.

So, what we have just experienced is a restriction of rights that had been recognized by the highest court in our land.

And in that regard, I will say that as

Vice President of the United States, I meet with heads of state, foreign leaders, on a fairly regular basis.

I've now met with over 100 in person or by phone, presidents, prime ministers, chancellors, kings.

When we as the United States of America walk into those rooms to have those conversations,

we generally have been able to walk in chin up, shoulders back,

talking about the importance of democracy,

human rights, rule of law.

And in that way, we have presented ourselves as a role model of all of those

Well, the thing about being a role model, we all know this, people watch what you do to see if it matches what you say.

People around the world are watching as the highest court of our land just took a constitutional right.

And my greatest fear is that autocrats and dictators around the world where their people are fighting for rights and freedoms.

Let's talk about women who are fighting all around the world for their rights and their autonomy.

But those autocratic dictators can look at them and say, well, you want to hold out your friend, the United States?

Well, look what they just did.

You sit down.

And in that way, we then appreciate that this issue, the way it has gone down,

will impact not only the people of America, but arguably people around the world.

Which brings us back to our fight.

Yes.

Because

fighting to stand up and speak out about it, to

remind the people who are impacted that they are not alone, to focus on what is happening in these various states and in the United States Congress will also be something that people around the world will watch.

And those folks who are aligned with this fight will feel a sense of confidence that this is not over and we must continue to fight.

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What are some concrete ways every person listening to this can plug into the reproductive justice movement?

One of the ways is to use your social media power.

There's so much misinformation and disinformation out there.

And again, so many people feeling alone, right?

But they're on social media.

And to the extent that we can each use the platform we have to say, here's the correct information.

Here's the incorrect information when we hear it.

Like just to do it.

Keep doing it.

Even if you've done it before, keep doing it to reinforce the point.

Reinforce the point that there is help out there.

And let people know where there is help based on what you know to be help in your community or your state or in another state.

There is what we can do that is about supporting the organizations that are supporting the people who need help.

For people who live in states that have

practically outright banned abortion, you know, 16 states have laws now.

13 of them, the ban starts at fertilization, which is essentially an outright ban.

So helping people figure out how they can get to and tap into services that can help them if they're working two jobs and they've already got kids.

The majority of women who seek abortions have children.

Child care is expensive.

You got to travel.

That's a bus ticket, a train ticket, a plane ticket.

That's expensive.

You know, people are barely being able to pay rent.

And so, supporting the organizations that are helping folks who need to travel,

supporting the organizations that are providing legal assistance,

it is outrageous that not only do many of these states not make an exception for rape or incest, the number of states that are criminalizing healthcare providers,

providing for prison time

for a nurse or a doctor is crazy.

Yes.

Yes.

If we were talking about this a few years ago, we'd say this is just bananas.

That's never going to happen.

It has happened.

So supporting the organizations that are supporting folks folks who might need legal services.

And then there's elections, because hey, elections matter.

Yeah.

Who your local prosecutor is matters, especially if you are in a state that has criminalized health care providers.

Who your governor is matters for sure.

Who your attorney general is matters.

And then who your local representatives are, that matters because they're going to be in particular if they if they work in your state house as a legislator they're going to be the ones either pushing for greater protections or pushing back against restrictions

that's why at the beginning i traveled to all the states not all the i haven't yet traveled to all the states but but a lot of states blue and red states to convene state legislators to remind them that we need them and they're now going to be on the front lines because this has moved out of then the federal piece into the states.

So be active in statewide organizations.

Get involved.

And, you know, let's all be joyful warriors on this, too.

Right?

My sister was dying to ask you about being a joyful warrior.

So, the most joyful warrior.

Your mother

was a pioneering scientist, and you picked up a lot of your leadership principles from her.

Yes.

And in her lab, you learned that innovation

is what can be unburdened by what has been.

Indeed.

And this moment is terrifying.

Yeah.

And it's grueling.

And talk about elections matter.

We're years in and we're tired.

So it's terrifying, but it also can be seen as a moment of a gift.

Right.

Because

what got us here is not going to take us from here.

We are doing something new or we are just standing by and letting them take whatever else they're going to take next.

So what do you see as the gift of this?

And what do you see as the innovation going forward for what this movement can feel like and what can be?

So I think moments like this

remind us

that when we decide, oh, I ain't having this.

Okay, got it.

I'm getting out there.

I'm going to go and talk to some friends.

I'm going to do my social media as necessary.

I'm going to

join an organization.

And the effect of that activism

is always a really wonderful thing, I think, for an individual, which is to see the incredible power and strength that we each have to lift up each other.

It's an incredible strength.

You know, one can say you can, you know, how strong am I?

Look at my muscles, right?

And flex your arm.

But I think the true expression and measure of strength is not based on who you beat down, it's based on who you lift up.

That's right.

And

for a lot of people, they may have thought, I think we all did, some things were long settled, so I don't have to worry about that.

That's good.

Those folks 50 years ago who got Roe

decided they did their thing and I have benefited and we're all good.

And then the Dobbs decision came down and everyone realized, ah, got it.

Can't take anything for granted.

Got to be active and hold on to our gains because otherwise they may atrophy, deteriorate, or be taken.

And

so the strength of the moment is to remind us we have to be vigilant.

And that's okay.

Because it's just about acknowledging the fact and the truth of the matter, which is

anything that is precious and important requires our vigilance

in protecting it.

Because the duality of these things is that usually the thing that gives us great strength can also be very fragile.

Meaning, if we don't protect it,

it could go away.

Before we end, I have to ask one thing.

So

when we get all of our Joyful Warriors podcasters together

and we do all of the things you've suggested and we get a democratically controlled Congress and we get a Democrat into the presidency, do you have confidence that Democrats will go to the mat to write bodily autonomy into law once and for all?

I absolutely do believe that that will happen.

And I think that,

again, well, we can look at just the most recent track record on marriage.

Yes.

Because we've been pushing for it for a long time, but we thought, okay, we're good.

You know, I performed some of the first same-sex marriages in the country.

We thought we were good.

You know, the courts are making, and now we realize, okay, the courts may have made certain decisions, but we can't assume that will be forever.

So Democrats and some Republicans came together and said, okay, let's pass.

this bill that codifies puts into law the right to marry the person you love Similarly, I think that

everyone has been shocked into being fully awake that we need to

do something in Congress, but sadly, we still don't have all the numbers we need.

And that's why elections, in terms of who your Congress member is and who your senator is, really matters.

Because the one thing that can end all of this in terms of these bad laws is if we, at the federal level,

say that it is a right that cannot be taken away.

That's right.

Which is why you are our MVP.

Go team.

We are just so unbelievably honored for this time with you.

We are relentlessly in your corner.

Thank you.

Thank you for this time.

Thank you, Pod Squad.

Further directions to come.

We can do hard things.

Thank you, Pod Squad.

Thank you, guys.

This is really great.

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