101. How to Be the Boss of Yourself with Bozoma Saint John

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They've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

So question, first question.

Yes.

Glennon.

Yes.

Are you still being an African auntie?

Are you checking your WhatsApp?

No, I don't check WhatsApp anymore.

I'm very, very disappointed

because Lovey and I taught you about WhatsApp and the importance of it.

If you are going to be a true African auntie, you have to check your WhatsApp because that's how the messages come.

Okay.

And I sent you.

a video from this morning.

Wait, hold on.

Let me see if I can display it here so you can see it.

Maybe you won't hear the sound this was critical this morning it was god talking to me this morning okay what did god say to you god said

this can you kind of see god said it's my mother what and her shirt says i can do hard things no way this morning this morning i came in from the gym and she was in the kitchen

And she was dancing around,

wearing a shirt that said, I can do hard things.

And I looked at her and I was just like, where did that come from?

And she was like, oh, do you like it?

I was like,

do you,

why did you do that?

And she was like, oh, I just, this is just a shirt.

I just put it on.

We both freaked out when I told her what was going on this today.

Oh my gosh.

So I sent it to you on WhatsApp.

And look at you, you missed the message.

Well, look what I deserve to miss that beautiful message because I did not check in.

But I feel like this is, this is what we were meant to do today.

Yep.

It was destined.

Destined.

I know it was destined because

we have been so delighted all morning because

we knew we were about to see your face and we haven't seen you for a while.

Yeah.

I know.

I miss both of you so much.

First of all, I should tell everyone what's happening.

There are a lot of people listening and they're like, this is a lovely conversation, but who's talking?

What's happening?

Okay.

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

Yes.

We have

over time noticed, Bose, that

the pod squad here on We Can Do Hard Things has 40 million questions about being a woman in the workforce

or really being any kind of marginalized human in the workforce.

And

I want to answer their questions, but I am not really in the workforce.

I am mostly in the bathtub.

Confirm.

Okay.

Right.

So

we

decided, Abby and I, that there really couldn't be any more qualified human being on the earth ever ever

to discuss and guide the world, really, through the minefield

of work and womanhood.

And that human being is Bozema St.

John, who also happens to be a dear friend of ours.

Can you introduce?

Yes.

Bozema St.

John is a Hall of Fame inducted marketing executive, author, entrepreneur, and in our opinion, a general badass.

Also, the world's opinion.

Bose has led global consumer marketing at Apple, Music, and iTunes.

She was chief brand officer at Uber and global chief marketing officer at Netflix.

Bose is currently named the number one most influential CMO in the world by Forbes and has been named one of Billboard's most powerful women in music for 10 consecutive years.

Same.

In 2021, Harvard Business School published a multimedia case study on her career titled Leading with Authenticity and Urgency, through which she developed and taught a program at the university aptly named The Anatomy of a Badass.

Bose was named as an ambassador for the African diaspora and special envoy to the president of Ghana.

And in the spring of 2023, Penguin Books will publish her memoir, The Urgent Life.

Bose counts her highest achievement as being a mother to her 12-year-old daughter, Lael.

Oh, you guys.

Welcome.

Do you listen to your bio and say,

what is my life?

What did I do?

How, what?

Yeah, all of that.

All of that.

Yes.

Yes.

I am also in awe.

It's amazing.

All the things.

It doesn't actually make sense because the...

stats are not in my favor and have never been.

And so it is, yes, it strikes me as awe-inspiring too.

Yeah.

Honey, do you remember the first time we met Bose?

Of course.

We met Bose

on the Together Twitch.

Yeah.

That's right.

Yeah.

I walked into a room and you were already there.

I told Abby this morning, the first thing I noticed about you was your clothes.

Abby said, is it okay to say that?

Is that objectifying?

And I was like, I don't know.

It's Bose, so I'm just going totally fine.

Yes.

I thought you were the most incredibly beautifully dressed human I'd ever seen.

And I was intimidated because of your fancy that were all the words behind your name.

When you were on stage, though, talking, what I was telling Abby this morning that I was most struck by was you were so bold and strong when you were talking about work in the world.

And then

the conversation switched to your daughter and motherhood.

And then this unbelievable vulnerability came forward.

The softness, you just never see both.

Yes.

Either the strong or the soft, right?

Yeah, you're strong and soft are both soft.

Do you remember meeting us?

Were we rememberable?

Rememberable?

Oh, rememberable.

Yes, you were rememberable.

You were rememberable because also I had seen both of you separately before I saw you in person, obviously.

Abby, clearly.

The whole world had seen you already.

I knew that.

I was very excited about that.

Glennon, I don't even know if I even told you this.

I first saw you

on Oprah stage

at USC.

Oh, I didn't know that.

I was only able to be there for like one session and it was yours.

And I sat in the audience and then this sprite of a person came across the stage.

And I was like, oh, this is the most interesting white woman I have ever seen in my life.

Like, I was like, oh, okay, yeah, her, that one, this, this one.

Oh.

And honest.

You know, I hadn't heard such honesty before.

So by the time we got to the together live tour, oh, I knew exactly who in the hell y'all were.

I did not know that.

And you did not disappoint.

I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Still honest.

Even backstage, still honest.

So I was very, very impressed by you both in person.

Thank you, both.

So, one of our themes this year on this pod

is how to know when to dig deep and stay

and how to know when to stop digging and go.

This is something

that we have not figured out yet.

Okay, just to preface you with that, but I keep thinking of it in terms of you because I've read some quotes that that you've said recently.

So you recently left Netflix where you were the global chief marketing officer and you said this, you have to know when time is up and keep it moving.

And then you said, you don't have to be the savior.

You can save yourself too.

So chills.

How did you know?

When it was time to leave Netflix?

Like, how do you know when it's time to leave a place?

What settles in?

It is so hard to articulate.

It really is.

Oh, it's hard to articulate because

of that hard place of trying to figure out whether or not

the problem is you

or the problem is them.

You know, when they say like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, it's not you.

It's not, it's not you, it's me.

It's like, how many times times do you have to say that before you realize that, no, no, it's actually not me at all, it's them.

Yes.

And then the disappointment in that.

In knowing that

you chose, you decided.

And they were the problem.

To be able to admit that is so hard.

You know, so then, Yeah, you spend the time trying to prove that you actually were not wrong, that you chose right.

That's what you spend your energy doing.

So that's what happens to me too.

That

often I'm in a situation and I'm like, oh, yeah, no, no, no, I chose right because I'm good at choosing.

I've thought about it.

I have followed my intuition.

God told me.

And I moved.

I went.

And then at some point, you're like, uh-oh, I don't think this is right.

Yes.

But I've spent so much time then

trying to convince myself that I wasn't wrong.

You know, and that it must be me.

That if I'm only

smarter, if I'm only

more likable,

if I'm only wittier,

if I'm only more amenable,

then maybe I'm not wrong.

Because how could I be wrong?

I know myself.

I take no

i could never be wrong in that

it's become very humbling actually

we were talking about like being strong and soft it's like you can be self-assured and also humble and humble in knowing that sometimes you get it wrong sometimes you get it wrong again and again and again and again that's right in that wrongness

it's okay you still survive you can be wrong

you know i'm very comfortable in being wrong now very very comfortable i'm like oh

wrong turn again

and everyone will know

and god is like the gps that's like redirecting redirecting and you missed your turn

it's so fascinating bose i've never heard anyone describe it like that but it is like at some point whether it's a marriage or a job relationship whatever at some point you realize oh it's me either way, because either it's me in this situation that's making it hard

or it's me that made the decision before to go into this relationship.

Yes.

It's me.

It's me.

It's me.

It's not them.

It's me.

And that is such a hard thing.

It is a hard thing to acknowledge.

It's a hard thing to accept,

you know, and then it's a hard thing to correct.

You have the moment where you're like, either way, it's me, whether it was me that got me into this

or it's me that's making being in it hard.

Yes.

I'm choosing me.

Yes.

I'm choosing me.

I'm getting the hell out.

Yes.

I'm going to stop.

I'm forgiving me.

Yes.

I'm forgiving me

for making the wrong choice again.

We're so hard on ourselves.

Beat yourself up.

I should have known better.

I've seen it before.

I should have seen it again.

Right.

And so then it's like the forgiving myself.

And And I'm talking about me.

I constantly have to forgive myself for sometimes making the wrong call for myself.

You know, it's so much easier, right?

To like forgive other people.

Yeah.

Not so much.

Not sometimes it's hard, but you know, it's so much easier to say, oh, well, that person made a mistake.

Like if I look at my daughter

and she makes a mistake, right?

I'm like, oh, hun, it's fine.

You're still an amazing person.

Like that that was just,

that was just, it was bad for the moment.

It's okay.

It's okay.

We're going to figure it out.

Right.

I encourage her that she can make mistakes and that she can turn around and do better.

But yet for myself,

oh, I could spend months,

you know, saying like, but why did you do that?

You knew better.

You know, and that's what becomes so hard about the

staying or the going.

How fast can I forgive myself for making the wrong decision?

Oh, that's good.

Will determine how quickly I'm able to get out and correct.

It's that thing about when you grab onto barbed wire, don't just hold on forever.

Like, don't, don't keep making the mistake because you've put so much time into making the mistake.

Like, that's right.

The quickest, we always talk about the

squishing the time.

Like, all of our suffering comes in the time between the knowing and the doing.

Oh, yes.

Yes.

It's like, yes.

Yes.

I was having a conversation with a friend and I was like, you know, that time, you know when you hit your shin

and that moment between knowing you've hit your shin and when the pain sets in is like the worst.

Yes.

Because you're just sitting there waiting for the pain to come.

You're like, oh, I know this is going to hurt.

Yeah.

That, that moment right there is what sometimes we're sitting in.

You know, because you don't want the pain to come.

And so then we're sitting there being like, ooh, I made a mistake.

Uh-oh, I hit my shin.

How long can I wait before the pain sets in?

Yes.

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Now, I understand, like from a personal perspective, you might view some of these choices that you've made as a mistake, but I have kind of another

perspective

that the world is only ready when it's ready.

So corporate America

might only be ready for a Bozema St.

John

in their minds.

And then in practicality, Bozema St.

John walks through the door and starts to fuck shit up and starts to do her work.

And they're like, ah, actually, I don't know if we're this ready yet.

Right.

I don't know.

Right.

And so maybe it feels like a personal mistake or a personal decision that you've made that you don't think was great, or in hindsight, you may have chosen differently.

But from the perspective of the macro, I think what you're doing is you're laying a foundation for those of us who will come after you and getting the corporate worlds or all of those tables you sat at a little bit more ready for people in certain ways.

And I think that that's really important not to get lost in this conversation, that your

presence and representation at some of those tables.

And this leads me to my question.

You've been at all of the most powerful tables in the corporate world.

How does it feel to so often be the one who looks like you at those tables?

The only one, I'm sure.

Yeah, probably the only one.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I look, Abby, thank you for that perspective you know because um i do often need the reminder of that too you know and so i think both can be true

um part of the reason why i

stopped looking at them as the cause or

the reason why sometimes something didn't work or, you know, for me to figure that out is that I felt like I was giving my power away.

And perhaps that's a survival mechanism, You know, that I was like, well, if I look at myself, if I say it's me, then I'm better able to feel like, okay,

I can make something else happen.

I can be the one who chooses because I chose to come and I can choose to leave.

And if I put the power over there,

then it feels like I can't choose because I'm waiting for them to do the thing that's right.

And so when I'm sitting at those tables,

and yes, almost always by myself,

it is both frustrating

to know that

I'm probably doing the right thing for the future,

but also that I'm the one who has to take the brunt

of it.

You know, that

I actually, again, like I've been, I've been thinking a lot lately,

ever since I left my job, doing doing a lot of thinking.

And I was just like,

damn, like the idea of hidden figures hurts so much

because to think that perhaps you were the catalyst for something and then nobody remembers your name.

Nobody gives you the credit.

And that's what it feels like when I'm in the room.

You know, I'm thinking, this is going to be so great for the people who come after.

But will anybody remember me?

Remember my pain, this moment, this choice I made?

And if not, is that okay?

Am I all right with it?

Am I okay with the sacrifice?

And if I'm being totally transparent and honest, I'm not.

I'm not okay with it.

I don't want to be hidden.

I don't want to be forgotten.

And yes, people can say, oh, but how can you be?

You're going to be in the Hall of Fame.

You're this and you're that.

And people know your name.

No, no no i want i want the credit

of course you do i deserve that you said that and it reflect

me think about being in those rooms and the temptation of wanting to align and become them and to align with the men the white men in those rooms yes how easy and alluring that is i've talked about that you know and i feel like this is the this is the real fight is to resist to keep resisting the urge in that alignment.

How do you do that?

And then that's what you're doing.

Yeah.

And then that's why it's

not working.

That's why it's that.

Yes.

Because look, I think one of the most

obvious places, and you know, it happens a lot.

It happens every time.

But one of the most obvious, I think for everyone who sees it will understand, it was the moment I took the stage of the Apple keynote, WWDC,

where no other black person, forget black woman, no other black person had presented the software before.

I mean, Steve Jobs stage, right?

You've got all of the known people on the stage, Eddie Q and Craig Federici and Phil Schiller.

They're the ones who present, right?

And leading up to that moment, first of all, there was a lot of doubt that I should even do it, right?

Because look, I'm a marketer.

I'm not an engineer.

Black woman, although nobody wants to say that out loud, you know?

They're like, she's a marketer, not an engineer.

Yeah, I'm like, those are the cohorts.

and that whole statement about, like, oh, well, I don't know if they'll believe you.

Yeah, uh-huh.

I know why, you know.

Um, but Abby, your point about the allure

of

just aligning to make things easier, that was my choice that day, too.

Where it's like, look, everybody showed up in their jeans and button-down shirt,

like a literal visual.

I walked into the green room in the back of the stage, and there were, it was just a rack

of

jeans

and

blue button-down shirts and

pink button-down shirts and khaki colored things.

And I just looked at it and I was standing there in my curly afro, my very tight pink dress.

my Louis Buffon stilettos with a little poof on the back too.

How dare me, right?

A little poof on the back, just to add insult to injury.

And I was standing back there and it was like, you know, Tim Cook went first to start the presentation.

And then

Eddie went and Eddie is supposed to introduce me.

And I'm standing back there and I was just like, whoo, one of these things is not like the other, you know, waiting for my turn.

And when I went on that stage,

I I know it would have been easier for me too, by the way, if I had just put on the jeans and the button down.

If I had just tried to look like everybody else, maybe that would be one less barrier, you know,

than

even how I appear to be.

Not even, I hadn't even opened my mouth yet.

I had not even presented one idea yet.

Just how I look.

And so, for all of us who are showing up in these spaces,

of course, you just want to align.

In that little moment of like just walking in the door, knowing everybody's going to turn and look at you,

if you didn't have that hair, if you didn't have on that crazy outfit, if you weren't wearing those dang on earrings, if your nails weren't painted a certain way,

if you weren't wearing those shoes, clickety, clack, clack, clack.

Here I come down the hallway.

You know I'm coming because you heard my heels clicking.

It would be so much easier.

But I

refuse

to do that

because I do know all the people who are walking behind me.

I am very aware of that.

And it still hurts.

Both of those things can be true.

So, no, I am not like some, you know, like

humble martyr out here.

I want my roses.

I want them now.

I can, yes, both can be true that I want it for them too, but I want mine.

You know, and that's why I choose.

That's why when I'm sitting there and I'm like, oh, you know what?

This ain't right.

Let me just, where's my purse at?

Let me just pack my things and get up the hell out of here.

Because I recognize that unless I do that, I will be that hidden figure.

Nobody will know my name.

I love you so much.

And it's amazing when you think about,

I don't know how to put this into words, you will, but like how

the corporate world and the whole world

uses words

that cover the racism and the misogyny, uses words like professionalism.

Yes.

When what it really means is whiteness.

So.

Well, we just want you to wear this.

We just want you to talk like this.

We just want you to, because it's professional.

Yes.

Without dissecting what they're actually saying by professional white maleness, not just

white males.

That's right.

That's right.

Or when we are creating strategies, right, or telling stories, especially as a marketer, right?

That's my whole job is to create narratives about things.

And you have to make it for

the mass market,

right?

Meaning that my story doesn't matter in it.

But how can that be?

You know, very early on in my career, I contemplated that.

Like I was like,

so

how am I supposed to create this narrative for white men when I've never been one?

It's very strange.

And I thought, huh, I must be smarter than all the rest of y'all because if I can do it and you can't tell my story, oh, then I'm very fucking good because I could tell my story and yours.

Oh my God.

That's where it started from, right?

Because I was just like, oh, I see.

You're trying to tell me that I'm not as good as you, but actually, I'm better because I can do both.

You could only do one.

And then

at some point, I was like, oh, but wait, but my story is actually really important too.

So then, how do I put my story into the thing?

You know, how do I

add

my perspective onto the story to really tell it?

It was so interesting how much resistance you can get when you're simply just trying to show up as yourself.

It's still surprising to me.

Most times I'm just like, but this can't be.

Like, you can't really ignore

me, right?

Like, you wouldn't be that overt about it, but no, it's true.

Yes, we hide it in all the words.

They're like, no, it's got to be mass market.

It's got to hit, you know, the majority.

And therefore, your story is not important.

Your perspective is not important.

Please consider everybody else before yourself.

And perhaps that's also what is striking me because I've been conditioned that that's what I'm supposed to do, whether it's for the opening the doors for everybody else, consider everybody else with myself.

Or in the narrative telling or in the strategy setting, consider everybody else but myself.

And I'm just at the point where I'm just like, no, I'm only considering myself.

That's right.

How about that?

Yes.

That's what, because that's what you're doing for the people that come behind you.

Like, yes, that's the difference between freaking diversity, because especially for a woman like you, when they hire you,

they say, We want you for your perspective, we want you for your story, we want you for your whatever.

Of course, and then the second you get there, that's not what they want you for.

No, no, they want you for their sheets that says we have her.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

And to appear

to be different, but not actually be different.

Yeah.

So, and that was another thing that I've realized is that,

look,

I actually really do show up as myself, really, you know?

And so when that happens, people are just like, oh, but wait, I thought you would then just fit into our culture.

you know, because our culture is our thing and you're supposed to fit into it.

And what's so interesting to me is, although I love the arts, I'm really a science gal, you know?

And I'm like, molecules are so interesting when you think about matter.

It's like in any matter, it could be DNA, it could be water, it could be anything.

You add a molecule into the matter and the whole matter changes.

Doesn't matter what you're talking about.

So if you consider that the matter is a culture, whether it's society or it's a company or it's a family, you have matter.

And then the one molecule that enters that matter changes it.

It is not the same.

And so then you've got to contemplate: well, then, if that is true, because it's true in science,

if I walk into a corporate culture,

I am the molecule, the matter has to change.

It's not even a choice.

It has to change.

So then why would I consider myself insignificant?

even if I'm just one?

Because if you have a glass of water and you drop some red dye into it, regardless of how small that drop is, it changes.

It's no longer the same.

That's right.

So, that little drop can't be insignificant.

So, I am not insignificant.

Yes.

And why would I behave that way?

That's why it's not working.

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At the end of the day, Bose, is it that

a lot of places want to say and get credit for wanting to change?

But at the end of the day, that's the last thing that's wanted.

They don't want it.

They don't want the actual change.

They don't want the change.

They don't want the change because the change is also too hard.

I think they really do want it because we all want things.

You know what I mean?

We all want things.

But just as in the name of

this podcast, like it's hard.

It is hard.

Like everything else, I don't think anything is just black and white.

You know, I do believe that there is a desire to change, a sincere one, you know, a sincere acknowledgement that, like, oh, yes, okay, no, we are all the same here, and we do need to have perspectives that are different.

But then that difference comes, and it's like, ooh, that's way too different.

Can you just behave a certain way?

You know, can you just not say the things?

Can you not bring up that story when you're talking?

You know, because we don't, that's just, that doesn't fit into the thing we're trying to say.

Speaking of hard,

I think it's important.

What is it like

communicating with white women?

An easy question.

That's interesting.

What's the hardest part of

communicating with

white women?

The hardest part about communicating with white women is that they still think we're the same.

Somehow that just being women means that

we're the same.

And that is not true.

And again, I think it's like intellectually we all know that, but practically, do we know that?

Emotionally, do we know that?

I don't think so.

And so then the idea of our united

sort of energy and our united mission falls apart because we're still working inside of a society in which whiteness then is the superior.

And so it's like the superiority of the white women experience

is

completely a giant as compared to mine.

And so then mine doesn't really matter.

So

the individual kind of struggles or other types of challenges that I have, because there's so many other connection points in whiteness to white men

that I simply don't have.

Right.

And so you would think, oh, well, look, I have the connection to women regardless of race.

And then the white women have the connection to the men because of race.

So then they're connected here to the men and they're connected to me because of woman.

So they're connected on two points and I'm connected on one.

I'm dependent on that one.

And so I'm already at a disadvantage.

And so just understanding that as a literal practical thing, and that's just the bottom of it, right?

Everything else like builds on top of it.

But that, that is the most difficult.

Actually getting the understanding, not just intellectually, but emotionally, that we're not on the same same playing field is very, very difficult.

And how would that play out?

Because again, we're talking about alignment.

So

white women who say, I'm aligned with you because we're women, you're black, I'm white, but I'm aligned with you.

Do you see it

throughout work, throughout

that really the alignment goes the other way?

Really, when the shit hits the fan, the alignment, white women align with the power.

With the white men.

That's right.

With the power.

You know what's a practical one of that?

Do you remember remember in the Obama administration?

You probably read this, where they said that the women band together to help amplify each other's voices, right, in meetings and whatnot.

I thought that was such a beautiful thing.

And it has taken root in corporate.

Like you can see it, you know, where women say, okay, we're getting in there.

You have an idea.

I'm going to support your idea.

You know, it's like, and that's such a beautiful thing.

But what is happening also is that

in those situations,

it is not just my voice that needs to be heard, but my perspective and my story,

which sometimes needs to lead.

But I find that white women have a hard time following black women.

And so then it's like that whole affirmation, like rah, rah, rah, let's support each other.

Only it's also one direction.

So the there's the meetings before the meetings, but there are meetings after the meetings,

right?

The meetings after the meetings are the ones that are just like, oh,

I'm so glad you said that.

And, you know, did you hear me when I supported you?

And I'm like,

so you kind of didn't.

You did kind of, you kind of said my idea again, and then they heard you.

That's kind of what happened.

And it's like, oh, no, no, no, but we still got the the we still got the point across like we the women we said the thing and we made the point i'm like no no no it was my thing and then you took it

and made it yours and then you came back and said oh it's ours nobody remembers it i said it because you said it

was it but that's the thing it's like again i'm just like having sometimes you just feel so frustrated because i'm just like where is my voice

you know it's like yes we are going further because the woman's story went forward, but it was taken forward by the white woman,

and she didn't even acknowledge me.

Yes.

And so then it's like, okay, well,

here I am again

by my damn self.

Having to be the kind of jerk afterwards in that post-meeting, going, actually, no, you stole my idea.

That wasn't ours.

And that makes you feel like a jerk, but like, you still have to do it.

Yes.

And by the way, everybody thinks you're a bitch.

Yeah.

You know how many times I've been called arrogant, selfish, a bitch?

You know how many times?

All the time.

And I'm like, no, I'm not selfish.

I'm not a bitch.

I'm just asking to be acknowledged.

Yep.

I'm just asking to be seen.

That's it.

It is the lowest of things I'm asking for.

The lowest.

I didn't even ask you to call me a genius, which I fucking am.

Yes.

I just asked you to see me.

That's it.

That's it.

Low bars here, now I'm selfish.

You get me?

Because I said, oh, no, it wasn't your idea.

It was my idea.

Oh, well, this is teamwork, though.

Oh, really?

Because you seem to be the only one in the team.

You got to tell people.

I'm so excited to talk to people.

I feel like people are going to feel so.

Well, I was actually thinking about share the mic because when you said, is anyone hearing

my story?

That's what I remember you saying to me.

Glenn in, you said, I'll never forget one sentence.

You said, I'm just, I'm screaming into the wind.

I'm screaming into the wind.

I said, how are you?

Or something.

And you said, I'm just, I'm screaming,

but I'm, no one's hearing me.

I'm screaming into the wind.

Glenn in.

Can we also pause just there for a second?

Because that moment also just needs to be acknowledged because when you and I talked

you said the thing that most white women don't say

you know you were like how do I how do I help your voice

and I said I was just like oh shit

she want to know how to help amplify my voice it literally knocked me off my feet

you know because I was just like man I've been in so many

environments conversations with very well-meaning people.

Again, I don't think everything is black and white.

Things are very great, you know, people who mean well, they want to help, and all that,

but they just take your voice and then they put theirs on it, and it changes.

Then it's out, and you can't get it back.

You know, but what you said in that moment is what then led me to say, I feel like I'm just screaming into the wind, nobody hears me.

Then it was like it was, it almost became an easy solution after that.

It did.

It was like,

of course, of course, of course.

You should just be heard.

How do I put you on the platform so you can be heard?

But it was such a fundamentally

different question

from everybody else.

And also, we have to acknowledge that.

That was not just because I answered, but because you asked the question.

And then

that was a question that led to so, lo, so many questions because then you and Lovy,

right?

You and Lovy came back and were like, you had a whole.

I mean, you guys didn't like 12 minutes.

You had a whole plan.

Do you remember what happened next?

Oh, man.

This is when I feel like this.

The ancestors

or the spirits who are not yet here, you're know, the ones who are waiting,

they just all came through.

It really does not feel like

our idea was just a conduit, right?

To let it be born because it just felt that easy.

It was like, as soon as we just stopped, you asked the question.

It was like a portal being opened.

You asked the question.

We went back.

We were like,

okay.

Because I was exhausted.

Again, frankly, honestly, I was just exhausted.

I was like, I don't want to talk to nobody.

Y'all can keep talking.

I'm going to be sitting over here resting my vocal cords.

And from that moment, it was like, look, okay, let's figure out like, how do we open up

our contact lists and find the white women who have these enormous platforms?

And how do we get them off of there?

How do we get them off?

That's good.

We don't need them saying our thing.

How do we get them out, though?

But we still want their platform.

And it was amazing to think that all we had to do was ask.

Yep.

Ask the right people who are willing to say, oh, okay, let me just move over.

And again, I don't want to pretend like that was an easy thing either, because look, I feel like Instagram or social media platforms

to some degree feel even more sacred to people than their own homes.

Isn't that interesting?

You'll invite somebody over to your house to look in your fridge much quicker than you would say, oh, go ahead and just say whatever you want on my Instagram.

What if they say something crazy?

What if they say something you don't like?

What if they say something that's offensive?

You don't know what that person's going to say.

It's like, how scary is that?

The bravery on both sides of this incredible movement that we made of white women being brave and vulnerable enough to say, look,

I'm going to get out the way.

You're the keys to the house.

You just do whatever you want.

And then the bravery

and tirelessness

of Black women who were saying,

okay,

I'm going to say it one more time.

I'm going to say the truth.

And I'm going to be unafraid of what people are going to say about me because they don't know me.

They might judge me.

I'm going to say it anyway.

And oh, let me tell you, even for me, right?

Somebody who's, I'm out, I'm talking, I'm saying the things.

And all of the work that was going into creating this movement,

I remember I called Lovey.

It was like we had told everybody to go online at like noon or something like that.

And I swear to you, it was like 11.55.

And I called Lovey in a panic.

And I was like, oh, I forgot I'm supposed to do it too.

I don't remember that.

I totally forgot.

I completely forgot.

Like, somehow that completely escaped me.

And then I was just like, how am I going to do that?

I'm so tired.

I don't even know what I'm going to say.

I didn't even started thinking about it.

And then I got afraid.

I was like, what if I say the wrong thing?

There's so much expectation.

Like, I don't know what I'm going to do.

I was worried about my outfit, forgot what I was going to say.

And then after I was done saying what I wanted to say, I fell out,

exhausted, completely drained.

And so I continuously think about that too.

When we're, you know, I think about like the corporate settings or these business settings where it's like it takes so much energy

to show up, to say the thing bravely,

to go back outside of that space

and still continue

without laying down and taking a break.

You got to do that day after day after day after day.

It is a miracle

that we're still able to do this.

Like, I look, I had to give myself a pep talk the other day.

I looked at myself in the mirror and I was like, girl, you are just a miracle.

You are a miracle.

Like, the fact that you are where you are from where you came from.

Withstanding what you've been through, it is a miracle that you're here smiling with that clear-ass melanin skin of yours.

Looking as good as you do, having a happy spirit, raising an incredible daughter, being an awesome friend.

You're a miracle.

So go ahead.

Keep your head up.

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Speaking of miracles, can we talk about that daughter of yours?

I think,

you know, Instagram land is really big on love stories.

And we, as a culture, tend to value most the romantic ones.

But I

swear to God,

I'm, I'm, I have goosebumps already, and you all don't know what I'm going to say, but I'm just saying that the love story of you and Lael

has got to be one of the most beautiful ones

being told right now.

I mean, and for those of you who don't know, you'll have to go.

We'll put all the links to Bose's social so you can see all of her genius, but also see this love she has.

Just tell us about Lael and what are, even like right now, from where you are in the world, and what are your dreams for her?

Oh, Laelle.

I don't even know where to start with that, you know, because Laelle is my rainbow baby.

Um, I lost a daughter before Laelle, Eve, my first.

And I lost her the day she was born, which was just devastating and crushing.

That's to put it mildly.

And

three months after I lost Eve,

I was like,

I want to have another baby.

I want to be pregnant.

My doctor was like, are you out of your mind?

Sit your ass down and and let your body heal.

And I was like, No, I'm determined.

No, this is what I want.

This is what I want.

And the thing is that, like, maybe

looking back now, it's again, maybe reaction to trauma, right?

Feeling like, ooh,

I was supposed to be a mom, and then I'm not a mom.

So now I got to be a mom.

I'm going to do everything in my power to do that.

As soon as I got pregnant, I was terrified.

Like sheer, I'm talking about like sheer terror, trying to think of every way to get out.

out.

Like, okay, I made a mistake again.

Like, I made a mistake.

It's my fault.

I wasn't supposed to do this.

I don't know why I did it.

Okay.

But I held on and held on and held on.

Lael was born two and a half months early.

And

I prayed every single day of my pregnancy

and every single moment of my labor that she would be born.

Alive,

breathing,

kicking,

crying, anything.

And I promised God, I was like, if she lived, that I would name her for him.

Because I said, La El, meaning belonging to God.

And

she

was born on May 29th, 2009, same day as my sister.

Elua!

yes Elua's birthday and

the doctor prepped both Peter and I that

because she was premature because they'd given me a bunch of steroids to help her lungs develop so she could breathe that's unfortunately what happened to Eve was that she just couldn't breathe and

he said she's probably not going to make a sound you won't be able to hold her

we're going to deliver her and then she's going to go so just be prepared for that And Lael came out like lightning.

You know, it was like a crack in the air.

She's like, wow,

scream.

And I,

I mean, I was in such awe of her in that moment.

I was like,

I've delivered a warrior.

A real, like a real life warrior.

And

I refused to let them take her because I was just like, oh, no, no, no, she's fine.

And when I tell you, I did one of those, like in the movies, you know, where you just reached down and grabbed the kid.

That's what I did.

I was like, no, she's mine.

Ripped her right out of my womb, put her on my chest,

took in the scent of her, her heartbeat,

the thin, translucent skin that she had, and felt every inch of her.

She was not bigger than one palm, but I felt it, all of it.

And in the months that followed, you know, she was in the hospital for a while.

I prayed every day.

She came home right before her due date.

And I thought, now I'm responsible for this warrior.

You know, to show her the way,

to make her understand that

her life

is such a gift,

you know, that she was so wanted,

so needed,

not just for like my own salvation and belief and faith,

but that she is here for such a great purpose.

I mean, we all are, but I believe it for for her.

I know she's destined for something great.

I don't know what that is.

And I won't try to force it.

Whatever the path is, I will follow it

because

there is no math that says she should be here, but yet she is.

And so my hope is that she's just going to walk in her destiny and fulfill it.

Well, we started this interview with you saying there is no math

that says that you should be here where you are in this world there is also no math that says the little warrior should be where she is and yet you both

are freaking warriors gorgeous warriors a beautiful love story when the urgent life is ready will you come back here please to tell us the story and I just cannot wait, Bose.

I cannot wait.

Please send me that book as soon as it's ready.

okay.

I will.

I will.

And you, you already know it's like, you know, the

process of

writing is so, so difficult.

But this, this was,

it's been a long time coming, you know?

And I'm, I was ready.

The moment I sat down, I was ready.

I wasn't ready a moment before that.

But as soon as I sat down, it was like,

everything just started

coming.

And so I'm telling all of it, you know, all of the pain, all of the triumph, all of the all the things.

What a gift, Bose.

Nobody

will ever forget your name.

That is for dead.

You are unforgettable.

Thank you for being with us and sharing your story.

And please come back.

And the next right thing for all of you, pod squatters, is just to go back and listen again.

Okay.

And then pretend when Bose is giving her pep talks to herself, that it's for you.

Oh, because you are also a miracle.

That's right.

All right, Bose, go do all of your million important hard things.

We love you forever.

We will always be in your corner.

And Lael's,

um, we will talk soon.

Thank you for this.

And

thank you so much.

Carry on, warriors.

Bye.

I give you Tish Milton and Brandy Carlisle.

I walked through fire, I came out the other side.

I chased desire,

I made sure I got what's mine.

And I continue

to believe

that I'm the one for me.

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line.

Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are back.

A final destination

we lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to belong.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a heart game.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem,

sometimes

things fall apart.

And I continue

to believe

the best

people are free.

And it took some time.

But I'm finally fine.

Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks on that.

A final destination

we lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to belong.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a heart pain.

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

We might get lost, but we're okay with that.

We've stopped asking directions

in some places

they've never been.

And to be be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do hard things.

Yeah, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we

can do hard

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