77. Double Date with Brandi & Catherine Carlile!

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Speaker 2 Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

Speaker 2 Today we are continuing our conversation with six-time Grammy Award-winning singer, songwriter, performer, producer, number one New York Times best-selling author and activist, and our dear, dear friend, Brandi Carlisle.

Speaker 2 But today, we are having a double date.

Speaker 2 We are joined by, of course, my beloved wife, Abby Wombach.

Speaker 2 And we welcome Brandy's wife, Catherine Carlisle. Catherine, one of our favorite people, has devoted her life to the intersection of music and activism with over 20 years of experience.

Speaker 2 Since 2012, she has served as the executive director of the Looking Out Foundation, which has raised over $3 million for a variety of grassroots causes.

Speaker 2 She has also served as creative director for Phantom 309 Productions, and you'll very quickly find out she has an amazing voice. She's also an incredible writer.

Speaker 2 Catherine and Brandi now live outside of Seattle, Washington with their two daughters, Evangeline and Elijah. Let's jump in.

Speaker 4 Her secret is that she did voiceovers before she moved to the station.

Speaker 3 That was your secret job. That's my secret dream job.

Speaker 2 Okay, we're going to start because I want to talk about that.

Speaker 3 No, no, no, that's not. Oh, no, Relena.
I mean, we should talk about Daddy Lennon. Don't worry about it.

Speaker 3 Are we recording?

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 All right. So

Speaker 3 you've just joined already

Speaker 2 our double date.

Speaker 2 This is We Can Do Hard Things double date episode with

Speaker 2 Catherine and Brandy. And you've kind of interrupted us in the middle, but that's okay.
You don't need to apologize.

Speaker 4 Yeah, just to give the four-on-one, we just had lunch.

Speaker 3 And so we're technically now in the after food portion of this double date.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's the after party. And we were just learning that Catherine used to do voiceovers.

Speaker 2 This doesn't surprise me at all. Tell me more.

Speaker 4 Shall I, or do you want to? No, tell me more.

Speaker 2 Who does the voiceovers?

Speaker 3 We want to talk.

Speaker 3 It was, I worked at a studio as a studio manager, and they would do voiceover stuff in the studio.

Speaker 4 Listen to that voice.

Speaker 3 Oh,

Speaker 3 and then

Speaker 3 one day, one of the vocal coaches doing this voiceover work said, you should, you should do it, you know. And I said, sure.
And I had like a couple of lessons and

Speaker 3 did them out of my cupboard under the stairs.

Speaker 2 Okay, if anyone's listening right now that like is in charge of voiceovers, you just need to hire Catherine. I could listen to her all day.
Actually, that is a line in The Rock.

Speaker 2 Is that what it's called? Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's so good. What is that line? About when Catherine goes for a walk and you're so codependent that you can't handle her meeting.

Speaker 4 And you out on your walk is all the distance this poor girl can take without listening to you talk.

Speaker 3 I mean, listen to her.

Speaker 3 She's only human.

Speaker 2 Okay, just how did you guys meet? And who asked out who first?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Who saw who first? Oh, I love this. This is so exciting, dude.

Speaker 3 Well, I knew what Brandy looked like before she met me because obviously, you know, she's Brandy. Right.

Speaker 4 And I did not know what Catherine looked like. And this is actually very funny because I was involved in

Speaker 4 a campaign in the States called the Fight the Fear Campaign. We were teaching women self-defense in response to a really violent crime that happened in Seattle.

Speaker 4 And Catherine had been reading about it all the way over in the UK.

Speaker 4 And she got in touch with my

Speaker 4 manager and asked if her her and Paul McCartney, who she was working for at the time, organizing his sort of charity stuff,

Speaker 4 could donate anything to the cause to help us raise funds.

Speaker 4 And my manager connected me with her because she ran a foundation and I had just started one. And so I was being mentored by this person for quite a while, actually, like a little over a year.

Speaker 4 And I knew some things about her. I knew she had a girlfriend.
I knew she liked the indigo girls. And I knew she worked for Paul McCartney.
And I thought she was Paul's age.

Speaker 3 Oh,

Speaker 4 I thought I was talking to like somebody pretty close to like 70

Speaker 4 the whole time.

Speaker 2 So when did you discover that she is in fact not?

Speaker 4 When I saw her.

Speaker 2 And how did you see her?

Speaker 4 About two years later.

Speaker 3 Oh, New York.

Speaker 4 She came to a show in New York City. She had come to New York to work at the Paul McCartney's office in New York City and came out to a show.

Speaker 4 And I remember the tour manager being like, hey, the charity lady is going to be

Speaker 3 at the show. And I was like,

Speaker 4 I i want to go out to the gay bars with all the lesbians i hope my friends is in new york city what the hell you know and i charity

Speaker 4 the charity lady

Speaker 4 wow and i got back to the dressing room and there was catherine in her 28 year old glory we were both 28 i just couldn't believe my eyes the shock of what i thought catherine would look like to what she did look like was just really disarming.

Speaker 2 Did you love her right away?

Speaker 4 Yeah, what was like the first thing you said to her?

Speaker 4 I think I said, I thought you were 70.

Speaker 3 Yeah, we did say something like that.

Speaker 3 Smooth. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And she was there with her girlfriend.

Speaker 3 Oh. Yeah, so it definitely wasn't love at first sight because we weren't in that headspace.

Speaker 4 No. And Kim was back at home in Middle Valley.
And her and her girlfriend were going to go to Memphis. They wanted to see the place that rock and roll was started.

Speaker 3 And I was like, don't come to Memphis. Come to my house.

Speaker 3 And so they did.

Speaker 4 And we became fast friends. We played guitar all night.
We cooked steaks. And I did love her right away.
I absolutely thought she was just the funnest person. But it was really platonic at first.

Speaker 4 For another year.

Speaker 3 Yeah. For one whole year? Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then who made the first non-platonic move?

Speaker 3 Well,

Speaker 3 Brandy.

Speaker 4 I say her, she says me.

Speaker 3 No, you get you.

Speaker 3 You winked at me. You gave me a really

Speaker 3 big puppy wink. Whoa.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Can you describe the, like, what?

Speaker 3 Yeah. We were at a blackjack table.
I'm a cliche. It's a long story.
And she had her leg cocked up on the chair.

Speaker 3 She looked at me and gave me the most confident

Speaker 3 wink I've ever received. And it made me feel really nervous.
And I thought, oh, what am I supposed to do about that?

Speaker 3 Probably winks at all the girls,

Speaker 3 you know.

Speaker 3 But yeah. Yeah, it made me sweat a little bit.

Speaker 3 And I would say that was the boldest move.

Speaker 4 It was the first time that we were like, oh, you know, maybe there was no tension. There wasn't any of that like long drawn out lesbian friendship tension thing.

Speaker 4 It was just like, I just, that was the moment I was like, she is so gorgeous and really fun. And, you know, my brother was there with me and people in my family.

Speaker 4 And it was just like, there was just something about it. It just belonged there.
and i was like i'm just gonna give her a wink

Speaker 3 i don't know whether to be like impressed or disgusted no i didn't either

Speaker 3 because like a wink it feels like so confident very confident

Speaker 3 yeah and it was like language i might want more than this like just one of those it was like an open for business wink like i'm open for business it was a sign okay lesbian sign yeah yeah see i'm new here so i didn't know that was one of our signs that is relatively new too Oh, oh, okay.

Speaker 3 We have a handshake too. I'll show you later.
We have a what handshake too.

Speaker 3 You're finally going to show me.

Speaker 4 But then we didn't see each other again. We went our separate ways.
But when we saw each other again, it was like I saw her and she saw me.

Speaker 4 And as soon as we locked eyes, I remember she was standing in the front of a tour bus. I was standing in the back of a tour bus.
And I was like, that's it. I'm done.
Nothing else.

Speaker 3 And during those three months, were you guys in connection, like contact, communication?

Speaker 4 Really casually.

Speaker 3 Very casual.

Speaker 4 Yeah, Catherine had sent me some music. She'd been making some music in her band,

Speaker 4 and I was, I had sent her a bit of music, and there was no, nothing, no hidden agendas in it. We just, I think we knew, we really knew instinctually, and actually, we never really talked about this

Speaker 4 to

Speaker 4 keep enough distance between the two of us.

Speaker 3 Well, there was a lot of to where when we did come together, it was like, I lived in London, too.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah, you knew that something we had that we were like, we know this is gonna be like an almost holy thing.

Speaker 2 And so we need some time to get our shit together so that when we get together, neither of us hurts each other kind of thing.

Speaker 3 Yes, we did that.

Speaker 3 Or compromises our own integrity. Yeah.
Yeah. That was like a really, like, we wanted to separate from our former lives well.
Yeah. So that we could step into our future.

Speaker 4 Yeah, because we want to enjoy telling this story, right?

Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and I do.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 Did you both have that full sight?

Speaker 2 What would she say?

Speaker 3 She was more mature about it than me.

Speaker 4 I was like, what the fuck?

Speaker 3 I just want to see you. Yeah, right.

Speaker 2 I made and held the lunch.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 3 That's right.

Speaker 3 And I'm really grateful because it is a story I love to be able to tell.

Speaker 3 And I feel really good about telling it now in hindsight.

Speaker 2 It was too important. And I remember thinking you were too important.
Like, this is not something to mess with. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And you met on a book tour, right?

Speaker 3 Super sexy, a librarian's convention.

Speaker 3 Whoa.

Speaker 3 2,000 librarians. Yeah.
I was just thinking about that moment.

Speaker 2 So there were like seven writers lined up on this dais. And then there was maybe 2,000 libraries.
It was like the hugest ballroom ever. And then they, and Abby.
Okay. So it was seven writers and Abby.

Speaker 2 And this was like at the height. She was just retiring.
So, and so then they said, okay, you can all come up for, to get your book signed. So, so then.

Speaker 2 All the seven of us writers sat there and there was one line up for Abby.

Speaker 3 It was so awkward.

Speaker 2 Because I was like, Trying, I wanted her to think I was cool and there was no one in my life.

Speaker 3 So I just had to be like,

Speaker 2 I'm just not doing signatures right now.

Speaker 3 And like walk away. It wasn't quite like that.

Speaker 2 It was like that.

Speaker 3 I mean, listen, I'm not a writer by trade, but here I was trying to like sell my book to the librarians of the world. I hadn't even finished my book.

Speaker 5 So they all had their books.

Speaker 3 Oh, wow. And I just had like.
like a cover sheet.

Speaker 2 She was deciding whether to actually tell the truth in her book, whether to talk about addiction. And she came up to me in the hallway.
We were walking. We had never spoken before.

Speaker 3 We had, I was already in love with her, but because, oh, you, it was love at first sight.

Speaker 2 It was, well, now I see it as desire at first sight. I thought it was love, like magical, mystical Disney love.
It was. It was, but I think.

Speaker 3 But now that the drugs have worn off in her brain, you know, not the drugs, but we'll talk about the science, the chemistry in her brain. Yeah.
It was love at first sight.

Speaker 2 But she, we were walking through the hallway and she stopped me and she knew that I had an addiction background because she read all the little blurbs about the people who were going to be there.

Speaker 2 And she was like, I'm really, I don't know if you've, I don't know if you've heard like what happened to me. And I'm like, I don't, I've, where would I have heard?

Speaker 3 Like, what are you doing? You don't do sports. I mean, I know where you're talking.
Like, what, what?

Speaker 2 And she was like, like, on ESPN. And I was like, no, no, I haven't watched ESPN.
She had just gotten a DUI and it was a really hard time for her.

Speaker 2 But she was so terrified to talk about addiction. She was thinking about putting it in the book because, for somebody who's like a shiny Captain America type, sports type, they have to be perfect.

Speaker 2 And it was so weird for me to hear because, as people in music or a writer, I'm like, so what?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Everybody has addiction.

Speaker 3 Yeah. What is there even to write about?

Speaker 3 Yes. What else would you write about? Yeah.
It was the first time anybody in my life had ever given me advice that didn't require me to be perfect in order to stay where I was. Right.

Speaker 3 And I just remember she touched my arm electric. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And I was like, what the fuck? And then she goes, I have a rap sheet as long as your arm. Like in the real world, we like real people.

Speaker 3 And I was like, oh.

Speaker 2 So that's, that was my, that was my wink.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 That was pretty good.

Speaker 3 Yeah, for sure. That was real.
Yeah. Good advice, too.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So the tour bus, the wink of the smart person. Right.

Speaker 3 The wink of bounders.

Speaker 3 The smart person bounded.

Speaker 3 That's right.

Speaker 3 Well, I didn't have like a blackjack table on my leg up.

Speaker 3 It's all turned around under my cham.

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Speaker 2 So when you saw, Catherine, when you saw Brandy on the tour bus, did you also feel like, oh shit, something is happening?

Speaker 3 I mean, not in that moment, but I felt it actually prior. I remember like I was on this Greyhound bus traveling to see her.

Speaker 3 dedication i know i know i got on a excuse me i got on a greyhound bus so that was love obviously

Speaker 3 um

Speaker 3 but i remember feeling really nervous like

Speaker 3 really nervous and i had i didn't have an appetite and that's when i know there's something wrong with me

Speaker 3 um and yes

Speaker 3 i love food yeah

Speaker 3 but uh no i do remember the bus and i do remember it kind of becoming obvious that it was like a mutual attraction and that maybe there was hope for us

Speaker 3 But it all felt a bit hopeless at the time.

Speaker 3 Okay. You do have a lot of questions.
Hopeless because

Speaker 3 I forget we're in a podcast. It's like, asking

Speaker 2 more questions.

Speaker 4 I know.

Speaker 2 Okay, so hopeless at the time because you were in different places.

Speaker 3 Different countries, yeah.

Speaker 2 When did you decide, okay, I'm going to freaking move to America and live in a commune in the woods with no heat?

Speaker 3 She doesn't

Speaker 3 heat.

Speaker 4 The fire gets made every day.

Speaker 2 Which is so awesome. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Tell us about you happily.

Speaker 2 Tell us about your house.

Speaker 3 Well, it's a log cabin. It's a log cabin.
On the foothills of the Cascade Mountains. Yeah.
Do I get that right? Yep. Yep.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 it's a really beautiful place. It's really humble and there's a wood stove and you feel like you're going a bit back in time.

Speaker 3 And it's just really cozy and it's beautiful all year round. It's just.
So

Speaker 3 like split your own wood and you create your own heat. Yeah, every single day.
There's no heat like it.

Speaker 4 And there's no heat like it. It's like forced air just like blows stuff around.
It just feels, and I don't like the way it feels. I like kind of radiant heat.

Speaker 4 And she does too, because that's like all the cobbledy streets.

Speaker 3 It's the old England, piggledy-piggly houses.

Speaker 3 Air conditioning of

Speaker 3 heat coming out better.

Speaker 3 We have radiators. Or warm water.

Speaker 3 That's so interesting.

Speaker 3 I'm just

Speaker 3 I don't know. I don't even know if you're telling me that right now.
So,

Speaker 4 you know, there's this wood stove. You know, I've lived in this house for 21 years.
There's a wood stove right in the middle of the room. And the room is, everything's in kind of one room.

Speaker 4 There's like a little loft with a couple of bedrooms, the kids are in and everything. But for the most part, this is this big wood stove in the middle of the house.
And we just make a fire.

Speaker 4 and keep it going. I mean, I'll keep a fire going for like three weeks.

Speaker 3 Oh, my God.

Speaker 4 And then just let it go out to clean the wood stove.

Speaker 3 So when it's really cold, what happens happens in the middle of the night?

Speaker 4 Well, you know, you pack a wood stove, especially when you get really, really used to for all these years in such a way, and you close down the dampener in it to where it starves the fire of oxygen just enough to keep it warm, but there's like that flame and blazing and everything.

Speaker 4 So, when you wake up in the morning, you just introduce the air and it goes and lights itself back up.

Speaker 3 This is a metaphor.

Speaker 2 This is a really good metaphor. What, what do you guys fight about the most

Speaker 2 in the log cabin?

Speaker 3 Well, it's the splitting of all the wood, of course.

Speaker 3 We have buckets of dysfunction and they complement each other, actually.

Speaker 3 I have an issue with that.

Speaker 4 Good fighters.

Speaker 3 We fight all the time. We do.
Do you? Because I've never seen you fight. Well, a little bit.
The cute bicker things like dishes are wonderful.

Speaker 4 But no, we don't like ⁇ we don't want for anybody to think that there's anything

Speaker 4 unnatural about having a good row.

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So what would it be about? What was your last like actual, we are having a conflict we are going to have to work through, not just like, you know, a housekeeping one, but like a real one.

Speaker 3 We normally,

Speaker 3 you know, Christmas is an interesting time, you know.

Speaker 3 We typically fight around that stuff.

Speaker 4 We fight about alone time.

Speaker 4 She needs it. I don't.
And she doesn't need it from me, which is weird. Like if I'm there, she still feels alone.

Speaker 3 But like

Speaker 3 this whole thing.

Speaker 3 Mary good.

Speaker 4 I'm not paying attention to myself.

Speaker 4 But like, you know, I want company. I remember like being a kid, like my favorite sound was gravel under car wheels.

Speaker 3 I was like, who's here?

Speaker 4 You came to surprise me today. And I'll change everything.
Like, if you come for dinner, I might not want you to leave for three days, you know?

Speaker 4 And Catherine's just like, what the hell is wrong with you?

Speaker 2 Yeah, Catherine, that's my favorite sound too, but it's because people are leaving.

Speaker 3 I like company. I just, just, I like to know when people are showing up and when they're going to leave as well.
That's important information.

Speaker 3 But yeah, we've learned to like live with each other around that kind of thing.

Speaker 4 But big fights have come of that. You know, I want family to come and stay and she thinks that we need some family time away from other family or whatever.
So we've had big fights about that.

Speaker 4 We've fought about COVID.

Speaker 3 Oh, God.

Speaker 4 You know, neither one of us hates to not be in control of a situation or not know what's going to happen.

Speaker 4 I don't know. We're just like,

Speaker 4 we're together all the time.

Speaker 2 Yeah. We get that.

Speaker 3 Yeah. You two must.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4 What about you guys? What's your most constant fight?

Speaker 2 We fight about

Speaker 3 control.

Speaker 2 Like I tend to be a very controlling person.

Speaker 2 And so Abby is uncontrollable.

Speaker 2 And that is like, you know, which bends first, the impenetrable force or the, it's, it's that, I think, has been interesting.

Speaker 2 But I I think we fight mostly about how we fight yes so it doesn't matter my god the fight like it doesn't matter what the problem is it's that after the problem we go into this pattern where I'm trying to be right

Speaker 2 I don't know what are you doing you often go to shame

Speaker 2 so like if if so something happens like Abby drops something and we're fighting about dropping she'll be like i'm the worst person in the world i'm i can't believe i did that and so then I have to be like, no, you're like such a good person.

Speaker 2 And then I'm pissed because I'm like, wait, how did we end up here where I'm talking about what a good person you are?

Speaker 3 You don't have the fucking thing. That's clever.
That's a good thing. You're a good story, right?

Speaker 3 Kind of thing.

Speaker 2 And then we feel like we have these bulletproof jackets. I feel like when you get, when you hurt, get hurt.

Speaker 2 Hurt is like, what do you do with hurt? So then you put something on, right? Like Chase, you always put on humor. He'd just start laughing about everything nervously.

Speaker 2 And then, or one of our kids would go to apathy.

Speaker 3 I don't care. Whatever.

Speaker 2 So what would you think your bulletproof vest is in a, that covers hurt in a fight?

Speaker 3 Well, I think you kind of hit her in the head with the shame bit. I put a shame jacket on.

Speaker 3 But at the end of it, like, what does that all mean? It's, I think it's a power play. It's how do I get out of this to win?

Speaker 3 Right. Same with you.
Control is a power thing. And like Glennon, if we were to get into a real argument, we'll 100% of the time win.

Speaker 3 Because she is very smart and very good with words and will come up with 72 different cases in which this just happened, the point was proven. And that's where we start from.

Speaker 2 This happened yesterday. We were walking and we got in an argument.
And it was that. It was like, she said, okay, if you want to be right.

Speaker 3 Oh, wow. Go ahead.
It's just like, I don't, that's, I'm not in this.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I'm not in this to be right here. Like, awful.

Speaker 3 I'm telling you right now, whether it's right or wrong, what you just said hurt me.

Speaker 2 And she's like, can you understand that my feelings are hurt? That's what actually was. Can you just stop and understand that my feelings are hurt?

Speaker 3 That's brilliant. That's really good.
I wish I could say when my feelings are hurt. Amazing.
What, wow.

Speaker 4 The result that would get from me would be like.

Speaker 3 Excellent.

Speaker 2 My result wasn't that good.

Speaker 3 Well, you're often. I was like,

Speaker 2 real quick, one more time. I want you to listen to me explain why what I did was right.
So what did you, what do you say when your feelings are hurt?

Speaker 2 Like, how do you express yourself or not express yourself?

Speaker 3 I have arrested development emotionally.

Speaker 3 I can only express one emotion, which is typically anger.

Speaker 3 So I won't feel sadness. It's just an extension of sadness anyway, anger.
But that's how I

Speaker 3 would display my emotion. And I actually don't know at the time that I'm sad at all.
I just feel angry. So

Speaker 4 I make sure to tell her exactly how she's feeling all the time.

Speaker 3 That's good. That's a good strategy.
She's super helpful.

Speaker 4 And if it's not like worthy of her, like, if it's being disproportionate, I say things like, get a hold of yourself.

Speaker 3 You tell her to calm down. Have you read a newspaper lately?

Speaker 3 Pull yourself together. These are really effective.
Yeah. It's my favorite one.

Speaker 2 So you say, pull yourself together.

Speaker 3 Yes. And then

Speaker 3 what do you say after that?

Speaker 4 Calm down is one of my favorite ones.

Speaker 3 Well, I typically,

Speaker 3 so you're you go to shame, that's your armor. I actually fall asleep.

Speaker 3 She's sweaty, my God.

Speaker 3 This hair comes down. I fall asleep because she's so

Speaker 3 brilliant and intellectual and measured and articulate and seems to have all the answers all the time and seems to have control of herself.

Speaker 3 So I get so exhausted by it, not being able to articulate myself because I'm feeling all the things because

Speaker 3 I'm all about nerves and feelings. And she's like up here.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 I have to fall asleep. It's just so physically exhausting and mentally draining.

Speaker 4 And it always happens in the car, which has made me think she can't drive. So I never let her drive because I'm afraid she'll fall asleep.

Speaker 4 And I'm like, oh, it's because we always fight in the car and you fall asleep. And then you wake up and you're like, oh, oh, what should we have for dinner?

Speaker 3 Like everything, it's like, everything's great when I wake up.

Speaker 4 That's her palate cleanser. It's just a 10-minute nap or whatever.

Speaker 4 I love the way that she processes feelings, and I don't think she has arrested development at all. I think she's going to live to be 110 years old because of the way that she walks through the world.

Speaker 3 That's amazing.

Speaker 4 And it's like, I mean, I just, I don't think there's anything wrong with Catherine at all, except for all the things she thinks are wrong with me.

Speaker 3 That's a good one.

Speaker 3 Well, one of the things that I struggle with with Glennon, because Abby wants to get back to that real quick.

Speaker 3 No, I think that this is important because the feelings bit, like Glennon feels feels like the world's pain a lot. Yeah.
But she struggles in her own personal life to actually be able to access

Speaker 4 those emotions.

Speaker 3 So sometimes I'm hurt. I'm like literally crying.
I'm upset.

Speaker 3 I'm crying. And she,

Speaker 3 something shuts off or shuts down inside of her where she just goes completely cold.

Speaker 2 It's so terrible.

Speaker 3 Gone.

Speaker 2 Do you know what I think it is?

Speaker 3 What is that?

Speaker 2 arrested development

Speaker 3 you're perfect but also i think

Speaker 2 i've never said this out loud before but i think that i was raised i was raised as a girl a very girly girl okay so i was raised to be in a heteronormative relationship and i was raised with toxic femininity which expects toxic masculinity and in a marriage that means I am vulnerable and you are not.

Speaker 2 And if you start to get vulnerable, I'm scared as shit because wait a minute.

Speaker 3 Who's going to protect us?

Speaker 2 No, you can't do that. Like, what's happening there?

Speaker 4 Who's going to protect us? Whoa.

Speaker 2 I think it's like a deep, like,

Speaker 2 it's like that thing where women want their male partners be vulnerable because that's like the buzzword right now.

Speaker 2 But actually, when you see it,

Speaker 2 the most feminist women inside are like, be a fucking man.

Speaker 2 It's this weird thing. When you're taught that you have to be passive, you have to, you need a dominant person.

Speaker 3 It allows you to to be passive because you know that there is a dominance, but I have both. I'm dual, right? And so when I go,

Speaker 3 dare I say soft, or when I actually have real like emotions, Glennon's, she'll, I can see it on her face.

Speaker 2 Like it's a hardening

Speaker 3 bye-bye out of here. Like I can feel it, but I know that's not her.
Like I know better than that. So I have to like, I have to explain my real true depth of sadness.

Speaker 2 I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 I'm working on it. I know.
And you're doing a good job. Thank you.
Did you have like overly emotional? Did you have to comfort an overly emotional parent or anything like that?

Speaker 2 No, but I was, I feel, I think I was raised in a loving but very volatile household.

Speaker 2 And so when someone else is that I love, this happens with my sister too, by the way.

Speaker 2 When someone starts expressing very strong emotions, whether it's like yelling or cry,

Speaker 3 it makes me freeze up. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 That, that, and I believe my whole thing is feel it all.

Speaker 3 Like I,

Speaker 2 but then when someone to me, close to me does it, I'm

Speaker 2 completely stunned. Not with the kids.

Speaker 2 Except with the kids.

Speaker 3 It's a protection. It's a safety thing.

Speaker 2 And this is out of control is how it feels.

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Speaker 3 off.

Speaker 2 I want to talk, you told us about your house. The other special thing.
is that you live with, you have, you really do have like a family situation that's not just your little family.

Speaker 4 tell us about that well it's cool it's like um my band that um i've been in for over 20 years like they're twin brothers tim and phil and um one of them married my little sister oh my gosh and so like 21 years ago i bought this five acre um property with the the log cabin on it that i still live in now but there's all this property around it because it's like out in the middle of nowhere and like as our family has grown people have started to buy property around it in the in the band, and it grew to 95 acres.

Speaker 4 So, Tim and Phil moved on with my sister, and then Tim's wife, and they had kids, and now the kids are growing up together. And then, because bands are so

Speaker 4 can be so insular if they choose to be, um, Catherine has two sisters that lived in Boston on the East Coast. And when they graduated high school, they would kind of come out on the road and

Speaker 4 hang out with the band or sell merch or whatever. And then our band's cellist married Catherine's sister and then the engineer married her other sister and they all moved to the compound too.

Speaker 2 Wait, I did not know that.

Speaker 4 Each have one child. So we live with Catherine's sisters,

Speaker 4 my twin brothers, my sister. And, you know, so all in all, it's six, eight kids now on 95 acres where we just walk to each other's houses or take four-wheelers or whatever.

Speaker 4 And, you know, lately, we've actually been thinking about how we we can continue to get together because we've gotten so it's actually getting so overwhelming for my house, which is now the smallest house because it's nothing's changed, you know, since all those years ago to get, but I, you know, I'm like, I'm destined to be the young matriarch.

Speaker 4 So like, I wind up cooking everything and we wind up in my house. And it's like, it's too many people now.

Speaker 3 Well, can't you just build right next to?

Speaker 4 We're talking about it, like a big barn or something.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's like a big cool kitchen,

Speaker 4 a pull-down dishwasher like they have the elementary school, you know.

Speaker 3 No, it's so good. The holidays are hilarious.
We have to like stage all of the cooking. Like, if I do a roast dinner, it's oh my goodness.
It's like I have to do like

Speaker 3 you know, three trays of roasted potatoes and then I have to cook like, you know, three different turkeys in three different ovens. And there's not enough chairs.

Speaker 4 We have to go get the drum thrown and the piano bench and all these different things and the kids' chairs and everything. It's like

Speaker 3 Kim too. You know? You know.
We have to feed Kim everything anyway. So, Kim, explain to Kim.
Um, Kim, Brandy's ex.

Speaker 3 Brandy's ex. She lives next door.

Speaker 2 Okay, so Kim, okay, because that's normal.

Speaker 3 So, I want to talk about that.

Speaker 3 I left that one out.

Speaker 2 I want to know with you too.

Speaker 2 So, do you not deal with jealousy in your marriage? Like, you live, you live in your ex lives in a house next door to you. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I just, you guys are very evolved about this for real. But, like, how do you, do you not, are you, neither of you jealous people? Um,

Speaker 4 um, we are about each other. Like, if I thought that someone had a crush on Catherine and she had a crush on somebody that was actually meaningful, I would lose my mind.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I would become a danger to that person.

Speaker 3 Okay, that makes me feel better. Thank you.

Speaker 3 We are that way. So, I just want-you're both that way.
Yeah, we both are.

Speaker 2 I mean, Abby always says she's not jealous, but what do you think? I'll let you speak for yourself.

Speaker 4 Well, you are. You just got to this gay world,

Speaker 3 and so

Speaker 3 there's a a part of me that you're naivete

Speaker 3 when it relates to other women that come into your life. I'm always just like, um,

Speaker 3 because I have not only gay dart, but I can sense energy really well. And I'm like, be careful there.
And also, I have to admit that I have a lot of PTSD in getting cheated on a lot. So

Speaker 3 it was just the nature of never being home. That's so weird.
Why would I think that I could be in a relationship that I never was home for ever?

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's like, it surprises me now that I could think that that would work.

Speaker 3 But anyways, yes, I do get jealous, but

Speaker 3 mostly because, and I don't mean this in an offensive way,

Speaker 3 because I don't think that you're paying attention to some of that. To vibes.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I don't even know if you know what to look for

Speaker 3 in that.

Speaker 2 Well, I didn't know about the wink until today.

Speaker 3 No, interesting. Here's the thing.
You do with men.

Speaker 2 Well, that's because I, yeah.

Speaker 3 It's just like,

Speaker 3 nope. Oh, gosh.
Like, because

Speaker 3 it's repellent.

Speaker 2 Well, and then coming from the other side,

Speaker 2 when we were talking in the last episode about being newer, the hard things about coming out later and coming out earlier,

Speaker 2 I don't know what the boundaries are. Like, I was, I was, oh, I was, I had a friends, I had friends that were women.
And like, we didn't.

Speaker 2 We just, we didn't have boundary. I mean, we didn't make out, but like, we, we were very close.
And like

Speaker 2 now, suddenly I'm supposed to read things in a different way than I ever have before with women. So I can see your point, I guess, what I'm saying.

Speaker 4 Yeah, but I think you'd know.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think I would know too.

Speaker 3 I'll know first.

Speaker 4 So to answer the question, yes, Abby is jealous.

Speaker 3 I'll know first. I'll have already warned her about it.
We'll have already had a conversation. It's all good.

Speaker 2 So, but you are. And are you jealous?

Speaker 3 I mean, every lesbian in the whole wide world wants brandy yeah so it's very hard for me i think i'd have a real problem if i really

Speaker 3 brandy i think i'd have a problem if i was innately i don't think i'm an innately jealous person um

Speaker 3 and i do have to accept that there's a lot of women fawning over brandy and and i just see that as a compliment but no if there was ever anything meaningful you know i would be very similar to Abby because I think brandy may not see things straight away just because of how intoxicating and how magnetic she is and how her profession, people romanticize singers and artists and they read too much into the lyrics and there's like infatuations happen very quickly.

Speaker 3 Interesting. I would go.
I mean, I've probably said to you a few times like, oh,

Speaker 3 you know, just pay attention to that person. Yeah.
And you're always right.

Speaker 3 Really? Yeah, she's always right.

Speaker 2 Okay, that's good for me to know. Let's go.

Speaker 4 I mean, the very first person I told that I was going to ask Catherine to marry me was Kim. And she was so excited.
And she's the one that told me to go and

Speaker 4 make something more of what, of what she could see that Catherine was to me.

Speaker 3 She did. She was the biggest supporter of our relationship.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 I mean, I wouldn't say that Kim's like the most evolved person in the world or anything, but she is, you know, special to me.

Speaker 4 And she, and she loved me most of my, has loved me most of my life now, or a big part of my life.

Speaker 4 And so she just saw, she's like, yeah, the Catherine thing, that's, this is it. This is when you go.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 2 That's really special and it is

Speaker 4 cool it was and yeah now she lives next door and like that's why it's not awkward right sometimes it is like she has little compulsions

Speaker 3 what do you mean like walking into our bedroom every morning no caffeinated and telling us we have to load our dishwasher

Speaker 3 yes she walks into your bedroom every morning well yeah she won't she won't mind she'll think this is funny this is amazing no i or like or like if we go somewhere it's it's like i drive because i have to drive everything because no one can drive me and um

Speaker 4 Kim has all these little caveats like built in. Like she says she's got sleep apnea, which I don't think she does.
And she says that she.

Speaker 2 Do you think it's weird that Kim and Catherine both fall asleep when you talk? Or do you because that's a coincidence. I'm just seeing the pattern.

Speaker 3 She

Speaker 3 no, but I'll give that some thought.

Speaker 4 One thing I do know is that she gets in the front seat next to me and then we fight the whole drive and Catherine sits in the back seat and laughs.

Speaker 3 Kim gets cost everywhere we go.

Speaker 4 It's me and Kim in the front seat.

Speaker 3 And I'm not allowed to to drive, apparently. Like parents.

Speaker 3 There's Randy White knuckling it with Kim, and then I'm like the kid in the back, and I'm watching my parents argue. It's like so fucked up.
But this is your time alone. Very entertaining.

Speaker 3 This is your time that you got to yourself. When I also fall asleep, yeah.
You're watching in real life.

Speaker 2 So you don't, Abby, Abby and I have now have finally decided after five years of trying to make it work that I just actually refuse. I will never drive when Abby's in the car.
Thank God.

Speaker 2 Like it's done. It's over.

Speaker 3 I made that decision about a month ago, too.

Speaker 3 A month ago,

Speaker 3 it's not worth it.

Speaker 2 Someone's going to die.

Speaker 3 I told you I was sorry about that.

Speaker 4 I told you I was sorry. Are you immediately driving?

Speaker 2 Are you, are you, what is it called? A backseat driver?

Speaker 3 Is that what you do?

Speaker 2 Do you scare her? Like, Abby scares me.

Speaker 3 Do you, oh, oh, oh, yes.

Speaker 3 Yes, yes.

Speaker 4 I mean, to be fair, I'm genuinely terrified.

Speaker 3 Same.

Speaker 3 And to be fair, how many cars have you hit in the last seven months, Gwenna? I mean,

Speaker 3 how many?

Speaker 2 This is a hard time.

Speaker 3 How many times have you hit

Speaker 3 our car on things? I don't know. I'm okay driving here.

Speaker 2 We moved and the streets are thinner, right? And so it's just like.

Speaker 3 Yeah, they're not thinner than the cars. Cars fit.

Speaker 3 They fit just as well when I drive.

Speaker 3 Some of us just have... things that we're good at.

Speaker 3 Some of us have things that we're not. It's okay.

Speaker 2 What came first?

Speaker 3 Because I never had a complaint about my driving and

Speaker 3 I didn't have any accidents or anything. And I drove on the other side of the road, and I thought I was doing really well.

Speaker 3 And I only deviated to the wrong side of the road once.

Speaker 3 Oh, that'll do it. That'll be the best double driver.
Well, she wasn't even in the car by the way.

Speaker 3 But now I feel like she made me a really bad driver because she's putting me on edge all the time. And making me second guesses.

Speaker 3 That's true.

Speaker 2 And by the way, when have all of my accidents been in just recently?

Speaker 3 Can I ask you both a serious question? I've been throwing you off your gun.

Speaker 4 No, but can I ask you both a serious question? Yeah.

Speaker 3 When you're driving with Brandy and you're driving with me,

Speaker 3 would you prefer to be driving?

Speaker 4 Or would you prefer to

Speaker 4 in the passenger seat? Let's be honest now. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I would prefer not to be driving. See?

Speaker 3 Because

Speaker 3 I yelled at you.

Speaker 3 That would be my sound.

Speaker 4 You would prefer not to be driving because you are sleeping.

Speaker 3 And you are sleeping every single drive.

Speaker 4 It could be five minutes, it could be an hour.

Speaker 3 You are asleep immediately.

Speaker 3 It is safe. You have heat in her goddamn mouth.
The biggest complaint I have.

Speaker 4 The biggest complaint I have about Catherine curving is: I think she will fall asleep.

Speaker 3 If I feel sleepy, I wind the window down and it's all fine. I think

Speaker 2 she's a spiritual genius.

Speaker 3 The sleeping thing is the answer.

Speaker 3 It really works.

Speaker 4 Really works. She can really sleep, this girl.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So, what ways do you feel like you are the most similar?

Speaker 3 That's a good question. I don't think we've ever been asked that before.

Speaker 4 We're actually similar in so many ways. I think we're both artists

Speaker 3 for sure.

Speaker 4 And, you know, there's a whole lot of who's going to protect us going on sometimes because when we transition into that place of being artists, there's no adult in the room.

Speaker 3 Oh, wow. That's cool.
Like what? Give me an example of what that looks like. Well, I think you have to tune out and go into another place when you create.

Speaker 3 And we have two kids, so we can't both do it at the same time.

Speaker 3 And that's interesting. That's an interesting scenario.

Speaker 3 Quite often, that will be a source of frustration for me because I always feel like naturally that space should belong to Brandy first and foremost because it's, you know, it's our bread and butter, really.

Speaker 3 Whereas for me, it's more of a hobby, I guess. We're really

Speaker 4 highly sensitive to each other's writing. Like, my wife is so cool.

Speaker 4 Like, there have been some times where, well, not sometimes, every time, if I, and I don't write very often, but if i do go glossy-eyed and i wind up at that piano and i'm i will look around 20 minutes later and every light in the house will be off there'll be a candle a glass of wine and she'll be gone and so will the kids well i'm witnessing i'm like she did it again well i'm witnessing something that's come in from you know

Speaker 3 you're witnessing something that's come in from somewhere tell me what you mean well well she would say it comes from god but i'm you know a british atheist so it's hard for me to get on that you're agnostic agnostic yeah sorry whoops um it's so interesting that

Speaker 2 every time Abby says she's an atheist

Speaker 3 agnostic yes I believe in something I don't know what it is agnostic but um no and she's not a disciplined writer and she doesn't um write all the time it's it's it's very whimsical it's very spontaneous to the point where she could just be going past the piano and just go plonk and then be like oh and she'll sit down and then she'll write this masterpiece so for me that's a really precious thing.

Speaker 3 And I'll do anything I can to facilitate it because I know how these things come and go. And, you know, you should seize the moment with creativity, even if it's inconvenient.
That's super magic.

Speaker 2 Beautiful. That reminds me of the real key thing.
That's love is

Speaker 2 protecting each other's solitude.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I thought you were going to tell a story that. That reminds me of a time when you did this.
No, it reminds me of a story. I know that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 Are you going to tell them I've been living with habit or do I have to? Oh, yeah, she did. Yeah.
Okay.

Speaker 3 I mean, come on.

Speaker 3 Well, we live in a very small log cabin. And

Speaker 3 I was, after a couple of years of marriage and, you know, two kids or whatever, I was starting to crave some space.

Speaker 3 And we have a very busy household, lots of people coming and going all the time. Her favorite sound, the driveway, wheels on the

Speaker 3 road.

Speaker 3 And I was going solely insane at that point.

Speaker 3 So she

Speaker 3 was very intuitive about it and she suggested I needed a room of one's own, right? Virginia Wolf. I definitely didn't have that.

Speaker 3 And she created that space for me.

Speaker 4 Me and those Amish guys.

Speaker 3 Yeah. What is it like a log cabin?

Speaker 2 Did they live with you also?

Speaker 4 They came from Montana. Hamish and Jables.
Stop it.

Speaker 3 Swear you.

Speaker 3 No, dead serious. Amish guys.

Speaker 4 Came out, stayed on the property for about five days, and we built the cutest log cabin for Catherine. It's filled with instruments and on her phone and things that she likes.

Speaker 4 And she goes out there and writes all the time.

Speaker 3 And I just installed blinds because I realized like I could still see all the things happening and I could still see my children. So I have to like have a blind pulled down as well.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I had to work in the closet. Yeah, that's right.
And then when I thought, oh, I need an office because I'm a grown-up, right? So when we moved houses, I got a big office and I couldn't do it.

Speaker 2 I wrote all untamed, even in our new house, in the closet.

Speaker 3 In the closet of the office.

Speaker 2 It was like a little troll, like underneath the eave and like and it's one little teeny table and had to be with because of that I would still see like remember my life and I can't remember my life.

Speaker 2 So you write how often do you write? How do we get to hear all of Brandy's stuff?

Speaker 3 Oh

Speaker 3 just whenever I can, you know, it's not a priority for me. I always choose work and kids and brandy.

Speaker 3 But on the rare occasion, I'm disciplined enough to be like, I'm going to that little log cabin to write.

Speaker 3 I typically have a great time and end up being really prolific and productive. And I love it.

Speaker 2 What do you love to write about?

Speaker 3 I like to write for other people. I find that really interesting to put my head in, you know, walk in somebody else's shoes and try and write for somebody else.

Speaker 3 That's a really good exercise as a writer if you feel like you're uninspired by your own happy life, you know.

Speaker 3 I just, well, I write about my kids, about brandy, whatever's on my mind.

Speaker 2 And do you not have, because one of the things we talk about about is like

Speaker 2 people say, well, there's a kite in every relationship and a kite holder. And like the kite holder is the one who holds the one who's out there and doing all the things.

Speaker 2 And that's kind of bullshit, right? Because then there's one person who always has to be grounded. Right.
So

Speaker 2 with, you know, with us, there's like somebody who's staying grounded and then switch sometimes. Yep.
Do you guys feel that? Or do you not have a desire to be as out there

Speaker 3 as Brandy? I don't.

Speaker 2 So you don't have anything that's like, I wish I was doing that.

Speaker 3 God, no. No.

Speaker 3 It makes me so nervous watching her have to do these terrifying things all day long, all the time. I'm much happier to just support and watch.
And, you know, so no, I don't.

Speaker 3 I don't have a desire to do that.

Speaker 3 But I'm very immersed in it and interested and inspired by it. And

Speaker 3 yeah, so no, I don't want to get on stage and do that.

Speaker 2 It's so terrifying. I remember seeing her.
We went to your

Speaker 2 coming out party.

Speaker 3 Yeah. The album, the release of the album.
We listened to the album.

Speaker 2 That night was so ridiculous.

Speaker 4 Wasn't that fun?

Speaker 3 Oh my God.

Speaker 2 It was, okay, so listening party. So it was a bunch of people in a backyard

Speaker 2 and it was the first time anybody had heard the new album. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And you performed some of it. Played all of it.
On the ocean. People just sat in couches and listened to it.
And I think it was the first time a lot of us had been out in a long time.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And seeing all of those amazing things.

Speaker 4 I was outside and everybody's eating mac and cheese.

Speaker 3 Yes. So listening to the album.
There were sofas. You rented sofas.
And so we were sitting on sofas outside. And Catherine was so cutely nervous for you.
That's what I remember.

Speaker 2 She came over and she's like, why does she want to do this crazy shit? And why?

Speaker 3 She was so sweet and so supportive and so beautiful.

Speaker 2 And that was the night that everybody figured out that this album was going to be

Speaker 2 insane. It was so good and so moving.

Speaker 4 I was really focused in on the couch, you guys were. i was like it really it's really important to me you know what you guys think

Speaker 4 and it was really important to me and catherine that you were there

Speaker 4 you know and it was that's why you know no you're not that's why we sent you demos that's why it's like you know you're an important part of our lives and we see you guys as you know kind of pivotal peers

Speaker 4 don't we yeah absolutely same yeah there's a lot of similarities too in our relationships and it's weird it switches yeah

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Speaker 3 Another reason, another thing that we struggle with is when we do have some sort of disagreement, this is now where we begin.

Speaker 2 Right. So we're done with that.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 forever. Yeah.
Forever. We don't go backwards.
We start here and this is where we start.

Speaker 2 Well, I feel like if you work really hard, you know how an argument is kind of like conflict is like you're working something out together. Yeah.

Speaker 2 What's the point of it if you're not getting to a new understanding?

Speaker 2 Right. And then I want to move on from that understanding.
I don't want to go backwards anymore because it's progress.

Speaker 3 Having the same fight over and over again is a struggle.

Speaker 3 Not coming. I'm like, have you guys ever heard of the book?

Speaker 4 You know the book? What is it called? It's like

Speaker 3 let your son go down. No, no.

Speaker 4 Oh, that's the lyric based on the book.

Speaker 3 But the book is called like, how to not talk about your marriage or how to no, how to not, uh, how to not talk about your your fight, your problems. What was it?

Speaker 4 I don't know, but the whole, the whole premise of the book is like, you know, instead of the, the concept of like,

Speaker 4 don't ever let the sun go down on your anger, like you should always let the sun go down on your anger.

Speaker 3 Oh, right, right.

Speaker 4 Just let something pass for a long time before you talk about it. Then you'll know if it's still really important or not.

Speaker 4 Go to sleep, people.

Speaker 3 Just go to sleep.

Speaker 2 Go back to the spiritual sleep.

Speaker 2 Well, we've talked about that before. My sister, I'm like, what is that rule is so stupid? Like, keep talking about it.
Because you're at your worst.

Speaker 2 Like, you're talking about something very sensitive. So you should keep talking about it when you're exhausted.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 Like, that's your worst self.

Speaker 4 Picture of the outcome happening in that situation. It's just not going to happen.
No. We had an argument the other day.
What was it? We ended up laughing at each other.

Speaker 4 We were still in the middle of it. We went and started cracking up laughing.

Speaker 3 And I was like, well, okay, that one ended in the middle of it.

Speaker 4 I think I said something like,

Speaker 4 I barked at you and you barked at me. I had said something rude to you.
And I'm like, well, you really pissed me off. And I was probably Kim.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 4 you were like, well, that's what you do. You do this.
And I don't talk to you for two days. And I was like, well, can we just skip that?

Speaker 4 But we just ended up being this like laughing thing where we were just laughing.

Speaker 3 And I was like, oh, that worked. Is that the best?

Speaker 2 Wasn't it Esther Perel who says sometimes when she's in the middle of a fight, she just lay down on the ground?

Speaker 2 Right. Because that's like injecting humor into how ridiculous something.
Like you can't, you can't keep angry momentum going on when something absurd happens.

Speaker 3 Exactly. We get to that point where we keep saying the same thing.
I'll say the same thing like five times. She'll say the same thing five times.

Speaker 3 And then all of a sudden we'll go, we just need a moment. And then we take like a two minute break.
We just don't say a word for like a couple minutes. And then we're like,

Speaker 3 I think we're good. Are we good?

Speaker 3 I forgot. I forgot.
And it's like, we're not coming to a resolution. Nobody's like winning here.
We're just, let's just like move on.

Speaker 3 I think that that might be where like the 40s and 50s are at of age in terms of, because it's like, the more i know is the more i realize i have to just accept you for exactly who you are and have no reason or need for you to ever change because

Speaker 3 history has it it's just like never gonna happen i'm never changing you're never changing until i want to change you know until you want to change what do you um want for your family and your relationship for this next chapter like what's your dream next

Speaker 3 Well, for the pandemic to be over first and foremost, obviously.

Speaker 3 My dream for my family is that we just find a way to stay together.

Speaker 4 That's mine, too.

Speaker 3 And keep it. Like, let her answer this.
Let her don't do it. Don't do it.
Stay answering. Well done, brothers.
Well done. Well done.

Speaker 3 Well done.

Speaker 3 I must have picked it up from you.

Speaker 3 No, yeah, just to manage to stay together in a sane way in the midst of all this chaos and crazy times and working really hard and just yeah just keeping us together do you mean physically physically we like to experience things all together and even

Speaker 4 even not the great things you know it's we all of our traveling and our music and you know our activism We like to do it as the four of us for as long as we can because we know that soon these kids will aggregate.

Speaker 4 Soon they're going to have their own

Speaker 4 things and they might not want to come on the road.

Speaker 4 And a time is coming when you know they're going to say, Mom, I want to be with my friends, or I want to go to the school, or I want to do this thing.

Speaker 4 And since now's not that time, I just want us to stay together for as long as we can.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's so beautiful how you do that.

Speaker 2 Do you go everywhere together?

Speaker 3 We try to, yeah. I mean, it's not great a lot of the time.
You know, they get overtired. I get irritable.
Brandy gets, you know, beside herself.

Speaker 3 And it's, you know, we're all in this hotel room wondering why on earth we're not in our nice cozy log cabin.

Speaker 3 But, um you know there's something beautiful in all the chaos i think you know i think so too yeah

Speaker 4 we just keep doubling down on that codependence just double down yes

Speaker 3 that's right just double down

Speaker 3 i love it

Speaker 2 i love it because what are you gonna do go have these experiences that change you and then that's how that's the growing apart right

Speaker 2 and then you're trying to explain it to each other

Speaker 2 when i'm on the road like we get to the end of the day and we're supposed to be you know having healthy relationships or checking on the phone i can't check in on the phone.

Speaker 3 You're in the worst way.

Speaker 3 I'm like, and there or here, and I can't do both.

Speaker 2 And I can't translate life. It's hard to translate life to someone.
So you either have to do it together. Yeah.

Speaker 4 I know what you mean. And I will not call.
And it's like, she thinks it's a punishment. That's like, if she doesn't come with me, I will not call.

Speaker 3 It is a punishment. She becomes very despondent.
She won't call. She won't call up the spot.

Speaker 3 She's really. I feel like you did this.

Speaker 3 You did this to yourself. You did this.
I don't call yet.

Speaker 3 What about, what about, what do you want for your family?

Speaker 2 Oh, God. I mean, our family is changing so much.

Speaker 4 What's that like?

Speaker 2 Because Chase is gone now.

Speaker 2 You know, he just came back.

Speaker 3 He's not gone.

Speaker 3 He's in college.

Speaker 2 He's gone forever. He's gone.
And we just had him back for the first time.

Speaker 2 And it was really emotional for me because I think I had this fear. And I told him this halfway through, that when you raise them your way, right?

Speaker 2 Like you teach them all the things and you teach them your way your way of thinking and how you think about the world and like you do your best and then you send them away and you realize when they leave they're gonna learn about other families and how they did it and other ideas and like

Speaker 3 like they're gonna start judging you for real because you can't really judge a situation till you're out of it yeah till you see another situation till you talk to other people who are no they're not near their parents to like oh no it's all your family like

Speaker 2 and so it's scary because it's like this it feels it's not, but it feels like a test of everything that you've done for the past.

Speaker 2 Like, send them out and see if they still like you, if they still respect you, if they still,

Speaker 2 you know, and like, I can get so weird with Chase because he's the first, like, he'll, he'd come into the room and I'd like to turn it from the real housewives to a documentary on turtles.

Speaker 3 So he would think I'm like, no, literally, smart. And like, literally, literally, she was in the bathtub in our bedroom, in our

Speaker 3 bathroom. And I was upstairs in the top floor.
And she texted me and she's like, What are you watching? And I'm like, My show, nobody's up there, I'm by myself.

Speaker 3 She said, I would prefer it if you don't watch any

Speaker 3 killing or any kind of thing in the common areas. But you guys, the vampires, the killing, the guns, like it's

Speaker 2 all she watches.

Speaker 3 It's called Last Kingdom for Netflix. It's what I do, but I belong to you.

Speaker 4 But, like, to be fair, I saw, you know, the Instagram of you in the bathtub looking like there was not an ounce of energy left in your soul.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 And it's like, if somebody's visiting and you, especially somebody as important as your child, and you set yourself aside for long enough, you're going to think it's them you're sick of and ready for them to leave, but really you're just sick of not being able to be yourself.

Speaker 3 That's right.

Speaker 2 I mean, Brittany, that's the story of my life. That's right.

Speaker 3 Wow. That's right.

Speaker 2 One time my friend said, We're going to New York to go to this meeting. And I said, I know it was like a fancy thing.
And it was for a publisher's meeting. I said, What am I supposed to do?

Speaker 2 And she said, just be yourself.

Speaker 3 And I said, I don't know how much longer I can keep that up.

Speaker 2 So anyway, the point is he came home and he still loves us.

Speaker 3 And he just hung up. One and got a little plus on her report card.
On her mothering report card. Wow.

Speaker 2 It wasn't like a report card. It's just like an energy that when they, you want them to come home and feel like.

Speaker 2 Like you're a resting place. Yeah.
You know, like you're a charging station or like a safe, good place to come back to. And that's how it felt.
So I don't know.

Speaker 2 It's just, I guess with family, it's like.

Speaker 3 And we both are keenly aware of being in an environment in high school where you couldn't, where I couldn't be my full self. So going to college was a, was a, was paradise.

Speaker 3 Was like, I, it was like going to the place I could finally become myself. And so going home for the holidays or I never went home for summer for break.

Speaker 3 I just stayed in college because that's where I felt like myself.

Speaker 3 And so it's just really important for us as parents that our kids can feel like their true full self at their house.

Speaker 2 That's what I, that's what I mean. Like, I'm just like, do you

Speaker 2 feel like this is the place where you're held and free? Yes. Or do you feel like you left and now you can be free? That's right.
And so that's what you're trying to figure out.

Speaker 3 And as a parent, you're kind of like oh hoping that they they because you don't know you only hope and then when you kind of get confirmation oh no they do feel free i did it how i wanted to do it because the way that it might be impacted might be different this is an elaborate way for you to tell us we have to accept the american girl doll

Speaker 4 but are these the kinds of things you have to think about now with kids that are this age yeah because i mean i think about this all the time how do you

Speaker 3 how do you keep them wanting to be with you that's right that's what it is how my entire life is just trying to keep them wanting to be with me it's pathetic you just keep telling them that they're perfect and then whoever they show up every day is exactly who you want to be around all it that's it right because my plan is like four wheelers or zip lines okay okay that will be probably also sprinkled within

Speaker 2 but what if you have a poet child who doesn't want to go on like if you said that to me what did you just say say that again like my plan is like four wheelers or zip lines unsafe not safe.

Speaker 3 Well, there's always my roast potatoes or her roast potatoes.

Speaker 4 If I have a poet, I will say, if you come around to me and mommy's house, we're going to have Glenn and Abby. Okay.

Speaker 3 There you go. Move them in.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Look how smart we are. It's Glenn and Abby want to come around.

Speaker 3 Because what if, and I just pose this as a question. What if Elijah or Evangeline are the kind of person that what if they're just like uber femme?

Speaker 3 Like so like, like what they might be then feeling in your house is the exact thing that you are feeling.

Speaker 4 Like, oh, oh, I think so. You know, I think

Speaker 4 I'm really sensitive to this because, like, what you're talking about is absolutely playing itself out all the time. There are things that, you know, they that are so natural to them.

Speaker 4 This nurture-nature concept is fascinating to me all the time. Um, they have, at least at this point in their lives, embraced a gender expression that

Speaker 4 you know I've got to learn to navigate and Catherine's got to learn to navigate and both of us are just like look at her hands it's so hard look at her

Speaker 3 look at my gay hands yeah look at our gay hands um

Speaker 4 but I mean with the exception of the American girl doll I love it yeah really I love it yeah and I've got I've really taken to like you know ordering when they switched from pajamas to nightgowns that was a big one for me because i love little babies in their pajamas it's the cutest thing you've ever seen you know with the hoodies and everything and they're like we want nightgowns and we want like lace on these things and frill and

Speaker 2 it was you were able to embrace it yeah they looked like human cupcakes yeah they looked like human cupcakes i mean when you last time you guys came and evangeline came she had you guys had gotten her a um

Speaker 2 like a a little silver barrette that was crystals on it yeah she

Speaker 3 gave that to you. She gave it to me.
Well, you obviously did make it.

Speaker 2 It's upstairs then.

Speaker 3 And even though you didn't take the book report, you didn't make the book report.

Speaker 3 She gave you a precious thing. Precious thing.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I'll just never forget when she told you you guys were going to play that game and there had a timer on it.
It's like, so Evangeline. She's like, I don't get timed.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 That was it. I used that timer real fast.

Speaker 3 And you're like, okay. Yeah.
No,

Speaker 2 she does not get time as if it had already been decided by a committee.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 3 I like it, though. Heidi knows.
She knows the stipulations.

Speaker 4 This is like revolutionary. The stuff we're talking about.

Speaker 4 It's two couples just having a conversation. But LGBTQIA domesticity

Speaker 4 family discussions, they really are radical. The concept of it is radical.

Speaker 4 I could not have imagined it when Catherine and I got married illegally without a license all those years ago to think that, you know, not only are we all really married, but we're sitting here talking with kids as atypical parents and every

Speaker 4 by every definition about how to navigate these waters that we are really finally able to get a glimpse at.

Speaker 4 It's it's radical.

Speaker 4 It feels good and it feels like home, but also it's pretty crazy.

Speaker 3 And I think maybe this could have something to do with like the homophobia that my mom might have struggled with during

Speaker 3 my teenage years, not knowing if I'm.

Speaker 4 I'm wondering if you could ever have a life like I could have what she has.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Because I couldn't then.
Almost made it impossible.

Speaker 4 I want to extend a little bit of compassion.

Speaker 3 Totally. Yeah.

Speaker 4 I feel that way now.

Speaker 3 Hopefully that sense of grief is going to become a thing of the past because I think that was my mom's default was like, am I going to have grandkids today? Yeah.

Speaker 3 But yeah, hopefully that's going to go away. Yeah.
I can't really look at

Speaker 3 that. One has produced a song with Brandy Carlisle.
Speaking of.

Speaker 3 Speaking of,

Speaker 2 we will let you listen to that right now.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 2 Thank you. that.
I have loved this so much.

Speaker 3 Every minute of it. That's amazing.

Speaker 2 We can do hard things.

Speaker 2 Guys,

Speaker 2 we had to do it on a podcast to finally have a real double date.

Speaker 3 I know, right?

Speaker 2 I give you Tish Milton and Brandy Carlisle. I walked through fire.

Speaker 3 I came out

Speaker 3 the other side.

Speaker 3 I chased chased desire,

Speaker 3 I made sure I got what's mine.

Speaker 3 And I continue

Speaker 3 to believe

Speaker 3 that I'm the one for me.

Speaker 3 And because I'm mine,

Speaker 3 I walk the line.

Speaker 3 Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks are map.

Speaker 3 A final destination

Speaker 3 we lack.

Speaker 3 We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 3 to places they've never been.

Speaker 3 And to be loved, we need to belong.

Speaker 3 We'll finally find our way back home.

Speaker 3 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 3 that our lives bring,

Speaker 3 we can do a hard pain.

Speaker 3 I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

Speaker 3 I'm not the problem,

Speaker 3 sometimes

Speaker 3 things fall apart

Speaker 3 And I continue

Speaker 3 to believe

Speaker 3 the best

Speaker 3 people are free

Speaker 3 And it took some time

Speaker 3 But I'm finally fine

Speaker 3 Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks are map.

Speaker 3 A final destination

Speaker 3 we lack.

Speaker 3 We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 3 to places they've never been.

Speaker 3 And to be loved, we need to be known.

Speaker 3 We'll finally find our way back home.

Speaker 3 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 3 that our lives bring,

Speaker 3 we

Speaker 3 can do hard pain.

Speaker 3 adventurous and heartbreaks on that.

Speaker 3 We might get lost, but we're okay.

Speaker 3 That we've stopped asking directions

Speaker 3 in some places they've never been.

Speaker 3 And to be loved, we need to be known.

Speaker 3 We'll finally find our way back home

Speaker 3 and through the joy and pain

Speaker 3 that our lives bring,

Speaker 3 we can do hard things.

Speaker 3 Yeah, we can do hard things.

Speaker 3 Yeah, we

Speaker 3 can do hard

Speaker 3 things.

Speaker 2 We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 2 Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it.
It's fine.