77. Double Date with Brandi & Catherine Carlile!

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Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

Today we are continuing our conversation with six-time Grammy Award-winning singer, songwriter, performer, producer, number one New York Times best-selling author and activist, and our dear, dear friend, Brandi Carlisle.

But today, we are having a double date.

We are joined by, of course, my beloved wife, Abby Wambach,

and we welcome Brandy's wife, Catherine Carlisle.

Catherine, one of our favorite people, has devoted her life to the intersection of music and activism with over 20 years of experience.

Since 2012, she has served as the executive director of the Looking Out Foundation, which has raised over $3 million for a variety of grassroots causes.

She has also served as creative director for Phantom 309 Productions, and you'll very quickly find out she has an amazing voice.

She's also an incredible writer.

Catherine and Brandy now live outside of Seattle, Washington with their two daughters, Evangeline and Elijah.

Let's jump in.

Her secret is that she did voiceovers before she moved to the stage.

That was your secret job.

That's my secret dream job.

Okay, we're going to start because I want to talk about that.

No, no, no, that's not.

Oh, no, Relena, no.

I mean, we should talk about Daddy Lennon.

Don't worry about it.

Talk about my perfect voice.

Are we recording?

Okay.

All right.

So you've just,

you've just joined already

our double date.

This is We Can Do Hard Things double date episode with

Catherine and Brandy.

And you've kind of interrupted us in the middle, but that's okay.

You don't need to apologize.

Yeah, just to give the four-in-one, we just had lunch.

Uh-huh.

And so we're technically now in the after food portion of this double date.

Yeah, it's the after party.

And we were just learning that Catherine used to do voiceovers.

This doesn't surprise me at all.

Tell me more.

Shall I, or do you want to?

No, tell me more.

Who does the voiceovers?

We want to talk.

It was, I worked at a studio as a studio manager, and they would do voiceover stuff in the studio.

Listen to that voice.

Oh,

and then

one day, one of the vocal coaches doing this voiceover work said, you should, you should do it, you know?

And I said, sure.

And I had like a couple of lessons and

did them out of my cupboard under the stairs.

Okay, if anyone's listening right now that like is in charge of voiceovers, you just need to hire Catherine.

I could listen to her all day.

Actually, that is a line in The Rock.

Is that what it's called?

Yeah.

It's so good.

What is that line?

About when Catherine goes for a walk and you're so codependent that you can't handle her meeting.

You're out in my garden and you out on your walk is all the distance this poor girl can take without listening to you talk.

I mean, listen to her.

She's only human.

Okay.

Just how did you guys meet?

And who asked out who first?

Yeah.

Who saw who first?

Ooh, I love this.

This is so exciting.

Well, I knew what Brandy looked like before she met me because obviously you know she's brandy right and i did not know what catherine looked like and this is actually very funny because i was involved in a um in a campaign um in the states called the fight the fear campaign we were teaching women uh self-defense in response to a really violent crime that happened in seattle and catherine had been reading about it all the way over in the uk

and she got in touch with my um manager and asked if if her and Paul McCartney, who she was working for at the time, organizing his sort of charity stuff,

could donate anything to the cause to help us raise funds.

And my manager connected me with her because she ran a foundation and I had just started one.

And so I was being mentored by this person for quite a while, actually, like a little over a year.

And I knew some things about her.

I knew she had a girlfriend.

I knew she liked the indigo girls.

And I knew she worked for Paul McCartney.

And I thought she was Paul's age.

Oh,

the whole time.

I thought I was talking to like somebody pretty close to like 70

the whole time.

So when did you discover that she is, in fact, not?

When I saw her.

And how did you see her?

About two years later.

Oh, New York.

She came to a show in New York City.

She had come to New York to work at

Paul McCartney's office in New York City and came out to a show.

And I remember the tour manager being like, hey, the charity lady is going to be

at the show.

And I was like,

I want to go out to the gay bars with all the lesbians.

My friends is in New York City.

What the hell?

You know?

And I charity.

I got to see the charity lady.

Wow.

And I got back to the dressing room and there was Catherine in her 28-year-old glory.

We were both 28.

I just couldn't believe my eyes.

The shock of what I thought Catherine would look like to what she did look like was just really disarming.

Did you love her right away?

Yeah, what was like the first thing you said to her?

I think I made, I think I said, I I thought you were 70.

Yeah, you did say something like that.

Smooth.

Yeah.

And she was there with her girlfriend.

Oh, yeah, so it definitely wasn't love at first sight because we weren't in that headspace.

No.

And Kim was back at home in the Middle Valley.

And her and her girlfriend were going to go to Memphis.

They want to see the place that rock and roll was started.

And I was like, don't come to Memphis.

Come to my house.

And so they did.

And we became fast friends.

We played guitar all night.

We cooked steaks.

And I did love her right away.

I absolutely thought she was just the funnest person.

But it was really platonic at first.

For another year.

Yeah.

For one whole year?

Yeah.

And then who made the first non-platonic move?

Well,

Brandy.

I say her, she says me.

No, you get, you know, you winked at me.

You gave me a really

big puppy wink.

Whoa.

Yeah.

Can you describe the, like, what?

Yeah.

We, we were at a blackjack table.

I'm a cliche.

It's a long story.

And she had her leg cocked up on the chair.

She looked at me and

gave me the most confident

wink I've ever received.

And it made me feel really nervous.

And I thought, oh, what am I supposed to do about that?

Probably winks at all the girls,

you know.

Who's

yeah yeah it made me sweat a little bit um

and i would say that was the boldest move it was the first time that we were like oh you know maybe we there was no tension there wasn't any of that like long drawn out lesbian friendship tension thing yeah it was just like i just that was the moment i was like she is so gorgeous and really fun and

you know my my brother was there with me and people in my family and it was just like there was just something about it it just belonged there and i was like i'm just gonna give her a wink

I don't know whether to be like impressed or disgusted.

No, I didn't either.

Because, like, a wink, it feels like so confident, very confident, wild, yeah.

And it's just like language.

I might want more than this, like just one of those.

It was like an open for business wink.

Like, I'm open for business.

It was a sign, okay, lesbian song.

Yes, yeah.

See, I'm new here, so I didn't know that was one of our signs.

That was relatively new, too.

Oh, oh, okay.

We have a handshake too.

I'll show you later.

We have a We have a handshake, too.

You're finally going to show me.

But then we didn't see each other again.

We went our separate ways.

But when we saw each other again, it was like I saw her and she saw me.

And as soon as we locked eyes, I remember she was standing in the front of a tour bus.

I was standing in the back of a tour bus.

And I was like, that's it.

I'm done.

Nothing else.

And during those three months, were you guys in connection, like contact, communication?

Really casually.

Very casual.

Yeah.

Catherine had sent me some music.

She'd been making some music in her band.

And I had sent her a bit of music.

And there was no, nothing, no hidden agendas in it.

We just, I think we knew, we really knew instinctually, and actually, we've never really talked about this

to

keep enough distance between the two of us.

Well, there was a lot of to where when we did come together, it was like, I lived in London, too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You knew that something, we had that.

We were like, we know this is going to be like an almost holy thing.

And so we need some time to get our shit together so that when we get together, neither of us hurts each other kind of thing.

Yes, we did that.

Or compromises our own integrity.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That was like a really like we wanted to separate from our former lives well.

Yeah.

So that we could step into our future.

Yeah, because we want to enjoy telling this story, right?

Yes, exactly.

Yeah, and I do.

Yes.

Did you both have that full sight?

What would she say?

She was more mature about it than me.

I was like, what the fuck?

I just want to see you.

Yeah.

I made and held the lunch.

That's right.

That's right.

And I'm really grateful because it is a story I love to be able to tell.

And I feel really good about telling it now in hindsight.

It was too important.

And I remember thinking you were too important.

Like, this is not something to mess with.

Yeah.

And you met on a book tour, right?

Super sexy, a librarians convention.

Whoa.

2,000 librarians.

Yeah.

I was just thinking about that moment.

So there were like seven writers lined up on this dais.

And then there was maybe 2,000 libraries.

It was like the hugest ballroom ever.

And then they, and Abby.

Okay, so it was seven writers and Abby.

And this was like at the height.

She was just retiring.

So, and so then they said, okay, you can all come up for to get your book signed.

So, so then.

All the seven of us writers sat there and there was one line up for Abby.

It was so awkward.

I was like, Trying, I wanted her to think I was cool.

And there was no one in my line.

So I I just had to be like,

I'm just not doing signatures right now.

And like walk away.

It wasn't quite like that.

It was like that.

I mean, listen, I'm not a writer by trade, but here I was trying to like sell my book to the librarians of the world.

I hadn't even finished my book.

So they all had their books.

Oh, wow.

And I just had like, like a cover sheet.

She was deciding whether to actually tell the truth in her book, whether to talk about addiction.

And she came up to me in the hallway.

We were walking.

We had never spoken before.

We had, I was already in love with her, but because oh, you, it was love at first sight.

It was, well, now I see it as desire at first sight.

I thought it was love, like magical, mystical, Disney love.

It was.

It was, but I think

the drugs have worn off in her brain.

You know, not the drugs, but we'll talk about that.

The science, the chemistry in her brain.

Yeah.

It was love at first sight.

But she, we were walking through the hallway and she stopped me and she knew that I had an addiction background

because she read all the little blurbs about the people who were going to be there and she was like i'm really i don't know if you've i don't know if you've heard like what happened to me i'm like

i don't i've where would i have heard like what are you do sports and then we're talking like what what and she was like like on espn and i was like no no i haven't watched espn she had just gotten a dui and it was a really hard time for her yeah but she was so terrified to talk about addiction she was thinking about putting it in the book because, for somebody who's like a shiny Captain America type, sports type, they're having they have to be perfect, right?

It was so weird for me to hear because, as people in music or a writer, I'm like, so what?

Yeah,

everybody has addiction.

Yeah, what is there even to write about?

Yes, what else would you write about?

Yeah, it was the first time anybody in my life had ever given me advice that didn't require me to be perfect in order to stay where I was.

Right.

And I just remember she touched my arm electric.

Yeah.

And I was like, what the fuck.

And then she goes, I have a rap sheet as long as your arm.

Like in the real world, we like real people.

And I was like, oh.

So that's, that was my wink.

Yeah.

That was pretty good.

Yeah, for sure.

That was real.

Yeah.

Good advice, too.

Yeah.

So the tour bus.

The wink of the smart person.

Right.

The wink of words.

The smart person bandies.

true.

That's right.

Well, I didn't have like a blackjack table on my leg.

It's all turned around under my cham.

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So when you saw, Catherine, when you saw Brandy on the tour bus, did you also feel like, oh shit, something is happening?

I mean, not in that moment, but I felt it actually prior.

I remember like I was on this Greyhound bus traveling to see her.

Dedication.

I know.

I know, I got on a fucking, excuse me, I got on a Greyhound bus, so that was love, obviously.

But I remember feeling really nervous, like...

really nervous and I had I didn't have an appetite and that's when I know there's something wrong with me

and yes

I love food, yeah.

But no, I do remember the bus and I do remember it kind of becoming obvious that it was like a mutual attraction and that maybe there was hope for us.

But it all felt a bit hopeless at the time.

Okay.

You do have a lot of questions.

Hopeless because

I forget we're in a podcast.

It's like asking.

Ask happen more questions.

I know.

Okay, so hopeless at the time because you were in different places.

Different countries, yeah.

When did you decide, okay, I'm going to freaking move to America and live in a commune in the woods with no heat?

She doesn't move.

There's no

heat.

Housing is

the fire gets made every day.

Which is so awesome.

Yeah.

Again, tell us about your house.

Tell us about your house.

Well, it's a log cabin.

It's a log cabin.

On the foothills of the Cascade Mountains.

Yeah.

Did I get that right?

Yep.

Yep.

And it's, it's a really beautiful place.

It's really humble and there's a wood stove and you feel like you're going a bit back in time.

And it's just really cozy and it's beautiful all year round.

It's just.

So

you split your own wood and you create your own heat.

Yeah, every single day.

There's no heat like it.

And there's no heat like it.

It's like forced air just like blows stuff around.

It just feels,

I don't like the way it feels.

I like kind of radiant heat.

And she does too, because that's like all the cobbledy street heat.

Piggledy piggledy houses.

Air conditioning of you know, people coming out better than dryers.

We have radiators or warm water.

That's so interesting.

I'm just

water.

I don't know.

I don't even know if you're telling me that right now.

So,

you know, there's this wood stove.

You know, I've lived in this house for 21 years.

There's a wood stove right in the middle of the room.

And the room is, everything's in kind of one room.

There's like a little loft with a couple of bedrooms, the kids are in, and everything.

But for the most part, this is this big wood stove in the middle of the house.

And we just make a fire and keep it going.

I mean, I'll keep a fire going for like three weeks.

Oh my gosh.

And then just let it go out to clean the wood stove.

So when it's really cold, what happens in the middle of the night?

Well, you know,

you pack a wood stove, especially when you get really, really used to for all these years in such a way and you close down.

the dampener in it to where it starves the fire of oxygen just enough to keep it warm but there's like not flame and blazing and everything so when you wake up in the morning you just introduce the air and it goes lights itself back up.

This is a metaphor.

This is a really good metaphor.

What do you guys fight about the most

in the log cabin?

Well, it's the splitting of all the wood, of course.

We have pockets of dysfunction and they complement each other, actually.

I have an issue with you.

Good fighters.

We fight all the time.

We do.

Do you?

Because I've never seen you fight.

Well, a little bit.

The cute bicker things like dishes are wonderful.

But no, we don't like, we don't want for anybody to think that there's anything unnatural, having unnatural about having a good row.

Like, we, oh, yeah.

Yeah.

So, what would it be about?

What was your last like actual, we are having a conflict we are going to have to work through, not just like, you know, a housekeeping one, but like a real one.

We normally,

you know, Christmas is an interesting time, you know.

We typically fight around that stuff.

We fight about alone time.

She needs it.

I don't.

And she doesn't need it from me, which is weird.

Like, if I'm there, she still feels alone.

But, like,

this whole thing.

It's very good.

I'm not paying attention to myself.

But, like, you know, I want company.

I remember like being a kid, like, my favorite sound was gravel under car wheels.

I was like, who's here?

You came to surprise me today.

And I'll change everything.

Like, if you come for dinner, I might not want you to leave for three days, you know?

And Catherine's just like, what the hell is wrong with you?

Yeah, Catherine, that's my favorite sound too, but it's because people are leaving.

I like company.

I just, I like to know when people are showing up and when they're going to leave as well.

That's important information.

But yeah, we've learned to like.

live with each other around that kind of thing.

But big fights have come of that.

You know, I want family to come and stay and she thinks that we need some family time away from other family or whatever.

So we've had big fights about that.

We've fought about COVID.

Oh, God.

You know, neither one of us hates to not be in control of a situation or not know what's going to happen.

I don't know.

We're just like,

we're together all the time.

Yeah.

We get that.

Yeah.

You two must.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What about you guys?

What's your most constant fight?

We fight about

control.

Like I tend to be a very controlling person.

And so Abby is uncontrollable.

And that is like, you know, which, which bends first, the impenetrable force or the, it's, it's that, I think, has been interesting.

But I think we fight mostly about how we fight.

Yes.

So it doesn't matter

the fight.

Like it doesn't matter what the problem is.

It's that after the problem, we go into this pattern where I'm trying to be right.

I don't know.

What are you doing?

You often go to shame.

So like, if, if, so, if something happens, like Abby drops something and we're fighting about dropping, she'll be like, I'm the worst person in the world.

I'm, I can't believe I did that.

And so, then I have to be like, No, you're like such a good person.

And then I'm pissed because I'm like, wait, how did we end up here?

Where I'm talking about what a good person you are.

You dropped the fucking thing.

That's good, though.

That's a good thing.

And then we feel like we have these bulletproof jackets.

I feel like when you get, when you hurt, get hurt,

hurt is like, like, what do you do with hurt?

So then you put something on, right?

Like Chase, you always put on humor.

He'd just start laughing about everything nervously.

And then, or one of our kids would go to apathy.

I don't care.

Whatever.

So what would you think your bulletproof vest is in a, that covers hurt in a fight?

Well, I think you kind of hit on the head with the shame bit.

I put a shame jacket on.

But at the end of it, like, what does that all mean?

It's, I think it's a power play.

It's how do I get out of this to win?

Right.

Same with you.

Control is a power thing.

And like, Glennon, if we were to get into a real argument, will 100% of the time win because she is very smart and very good with words and will come up with 72 different cases in which this just happened.

The point was proven.

And that's where we start from.

This happened yesterday.

We were walking and we got in an argument.

And it was that.

It was like, she said, okay, if you want to be right, oh, wow, go ahead.

It's just like, I don't, that's, I'm not in this torture, yeah, I'm not in this to be right here.

Like, awful, I'm telling you right now, whether it's right or wrong, what you just said hurt me.

And she's like, Can you understand that my feelings are hurt?

That's what actually was.

Can you just stop and understand that my feelings are hurt?

Brilliant.

That's really

insight when my feelings are hurting.

Amazing.

What, wow,

the result that would get from me would be like

excellent.

Oh,

my result wasn't that good

well you're often

real quick one more time i want you to listen to me explain why what i did was right yeah so what did you what do you say when your feelings are hurt like how do you express yourself or not express yourself

i'm i have arrested development emotionally

um i i can only express one emotion which is typically anger okay so i won't feel sadness it's just an extension of of sadness anyway anger but that's how i um would display my emotion.

And I actually don't know at the time that I'm sad at all.

I just feel angry.

So I make sure.

Yeah.

I make sure to tell her exactly how she's feeling all the time.

That's good.

That's a good strategy.

She's super sad.

And if it's not like worthy of her, like it's being disproportionate, I say things like get a hold of yourself.

You tell her to calm down.

Have you read a newspaper lately?

Pull yourself together.

These are really effective.

Yeah.

It's my favorite one.

So you say, pull yourself together.

Yes.

And then

what do you say after that?

Calm down.

It's all my favourite ones.

Well, I typically...

So you go to shame.

That's your armor.

I actually fall asleep.

She sweats your God.

This hair comes down sleep.

Because she's so

brilliant and intellectual and measured and articulate and

seems to have all the answers all the time and seems to have control of herself.

So I get so exhausted by it, not being able to articulate myself because I'm feeling all the things because

I'm all about nerves and feelings and she's like up here.

So I have to, I have to fall asleep.

It's just so physically exhausting and mentally draining.

And it always happens in the car, which has made me think she can't drive.

So I never let her drive because I'm afraid she'll fall asleep.

And I'm like, oh, it's because we always fight in the car and you fall asleep.

And then you wake up and you're like, oh, oh, well, what should we have for dinner?

like everything it's like everything's great when i wake up asleep that's her that's her palate cleanser it's just a 10 minute nap or whatever i i i love the way that she processes feelings and i don't think she has arrested development at all i think she's going to live to be 110 years old because of the way that she walks through the world that's amazing and it's like i mean i just i don't think there's anything wrong with Catherine at all, except for all the things she thinks are wrong with me.

That's a good one.

Well, one of of the things that I struggle with with Glennon, because Abby wants to get back to that real quick.

No, I think that this is important because the feelings bit, like Glennon feels like the world's pain a lot.

Yeah.

But she struggles in her own personal life to actually be able to access

those emotions.

So sometimes I'm hurt.

I'm like literally crying.

I'm upset.

I'm crying.

And she,

something shuts off or shuts down inside of her where she just goes completely cold.

It's so terrible.

Gone.

Do you know what I think it is?

What is that?

Arrested development.

You're perfect.

But also, I think, I've never said this out loud before, but I think that

I was raised as a girl.

A very girly girl.

Okay.

So I was raised to be in a heteronormative relationship and I was raised with toxic femininity, which expects toxic masculinity.

And in a marriage, that means I am vulnerable and you are not.

And if you start to get vulnerable, I'm scared as shit.

Because, wait a minute, who's going to protect us?

No, you can't do that.

Like, what's happening there?

Who's going to protect us?

Whoa.

I think it's like a deep, like

it's like that thing where women want their male partners be vulnerable because that's like the buzzword right now.

But actually, when you see it,

the most feminist women inside are like, be a fucking man.

It's this weird thing.

When you're taught that you have to be passive, you have to, you need a dominant person.

It allows you to be passive because you know that there is a dominance.

But I have both.

I'm dual, right?

And so when I go,

dare I say soft or when I actually have real like emotions, Glennon's, she'll, I can see it on her face.

Like it's a hardening

out of here.

Like I can feel it, but I know that's not her.

Like I know better than that.

So, I have to, like, I have to explain my real true depth of sadness.

I'm sorry.

I'm working on it.

I know, and you're doing a good job.

Thank you.

Did you have like overly emotional?

Did you have to comfort an overly emotional parent or anything like that?

No, but I was, I feel, I think I was raised in a loving but very volatile household.

And so, when someone else is that I love, this happens with my sister too, by the way.

When someone starts expressing very strong emotions, whether it's like yelling or cry, I it makes me freeze up.

Oh, yeah, that that and and then and I believe my whole thing is feel it all.

Like, I

but then when someone to me close to me does it, I'm

completely stunned, not with a kid, you except with a kid, yes, you're you're it's it's a protection, it's a safety thing, but this is out of control, is how it feels.

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I want to talk, you told us about your house.

The other special thing is that you live with, you have, you really do have like a family situation that's not just your little family.

Tell us about that.

Well, it's cool.

It's like my band that I've been in for over 20 years, like they're twin brothers, Tim and Phil.

And one of them married my little sister.

Oh, my gosh.

And so, like, 21 years ago, I bought this five-acre

property with the log cabin on it that I still live in now.

But there's all this property around it because it's like out in the middle of nowhere.

And like, as our family has grown, people have started to buy property around it in the band, and it grew to 95 acres.

So, Tim and Phil moved on with my sister and then Tim's wife, and they had kids, and now the kids are growing up together.

And then, because bands are so,

it can be so insular if they choose to be,

Catherine has two sisters that lived in Boston on the East Coast.

And when they graduated high school, they would kind of come out on the road and

hang out with the band or sell merch or whatever.

And then our band's cellist married Catherine's sister.

And then the engineer married her other sister.

And they all moved to the compound too.

Wait, I did not know that.

Each have one child.

So we live with Catherine's sisters,

my twin brothers, my sister.

And, you know, so all in all, it's six, eight kids now on 95 acres where we just walk to each other's houses or take four-wheelers or whatever.

And, you know, lately, we've actually been thinking about how we can continue to get together because we've gotten so it's actually getting so overwhelming for my house, which is now the smallest house because it's nothing's changed, you know,

since all those years ago to get, but I, you know like i'm destined to be the young matriarch so like i wind up cooking everything and we wind up in my house and it's like it's too many people now

well can't you just build right next to we're talking about it like a big barn or something yeah big cool kitchen

pull-down dishwasher like they have the elementary school you know

the holidays are hilarious we have to like stage all of the cooking like if i do a roast dinner it's oh my goodness it's like i have to do like

you know three trays of roast potatoes and then i have to cook like you know three different turkeys and three different ovens and there's not enough chairs we have to go get the drum thrown and the piano bench and all these different things and the kids chairs and everything it's like and we have to feed kim too you know you know we have to feed kim everything anyway

kim explain kim um kim brandy's ex brandy's ex she lives next door okay so kim okay because that's normal so i want to talk about that

i left that one out

i want to know with you too

so do you not deal with jealousy in your marriage like you live you live in your your ex lives in a house next door to you yeah i just you guys are very evolved about this it for real but like how do you do you not are you neither of you jealous people um

um we are about each other like if i thought that someone had a crush on Catherine and that she had a crush on somebody that was actually meaningful, I would lose my mind.

I would become a danger to that person.

Okay, that makes me feel better.

Thank you.

We are that way.

So I just,

you're both that way.

Yeah, we both are.

I mean, Abby always says she's not jealous, but what do you think?

I'll let you speak for yourself.

Well, you are.

You just got to this gay world.

And so

there's a part of me that you're naivete

when it relates to other women.

that come into your life.

I'm always just like,

because I have not only gay dart, but I can sense energy really well.

And I'm like, be careful there.

And also, I have to admit that I have a lot of PTSD and getting cheated on a lot.

So

it was just the nature of never being home.

That's so weird.

Why would I think that I could be in a relationship that I never was home for ever?

Same.

Yeah, it's like, it surprises me now that I could think that that would work.

But anyways, yes, I do get jealous, but

mostly because, and I don't mean this in a in an offensive way um because I don't think that you're paying attention to some of that to vibes yeah

I don't even know if you know what to look for in that well I didn't know about the wink until today

interesting here's the thing you do with men well I that's because I yeah it's just like oh no oh gosh like because she's it's repellent well and then coming from the other side I when we were talking on in the last episode about being newer the hard things about coming out later and coming out earlier,

I don't know what the boundaries are.

Like, I was, I was, oh, I was, I had a friends, I had friends that were women.

And, like, we didn't, I, we just, we didn't have boundary.

I mean, we didn't make out, but, like, we, we were very close.

And, like,

now suddenly I'm supposed to read things in a different way than I ever have before with women.

So I can see your point, I guess what I'm saying.

Yeah, but I think you'd know.

Yeah, I think I would know too.

i'll know first so maybe i'll know first so to answer the question yes abby is jealous yeah i'll know first

i've already warned her about it we will have already had a conversation it's all good

so but you are and are you jealous um

i mean every lesbian in the whole wide world wants brandy yeah so it's very hard for me i think i'd have a real problem if i really

brandy i think i'd have a problem if i was innately i don't think i'm an innately jealous person um

and i do have to accept that there's a lot of women fawning over Brandy.

And I just see that as a compliment.

But no, if there was ever anything meaningful, you know, I would be very similar to Abby because I think Brandy may not see things straight away just because of how intoxicating and how magnetic she is and how her profession, people romanticize singers and artists and they read too much into the lyrics and there's like infatuations happen very quickly.

Interesting.

I mean, I've probably said to you a few times like, oh,

you know, just pay attention to that person, you know.

Yeah, and you're always right.

Really?

Yeah, she's always right.

Okay, that's good for me to know.

That's good.

I mean, the very first person I told that I was going to ask Catherine to marry me was Kim.

And she was so excited.

And she's the one that told me to go and

make something more of

what she could see that Catherine.

was to me.

She did.

She was the biggest supporter of our relationship.

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say that Kim's like the most evolved person in the world or anything, but she is, you know, special to me and she, and she loved me most of my, has loved me most of my life now, or a big part of my life.

And so she just saw, she's like, yeah, the caffeine thing, that's, this is it.

This is when you go.

Wow.

That's really special.

And it is.

That's cool.

It was.

And yeah, now she lives next door.

And like, that's why it's not awkward.

Right.

Sometimes it is.

Like, she has little compulsions.

What do you mean?

Like, walking into our bedroom every morning.

No, caffeinated and turning up to load our dishwasher.

Yes.

She walks into your bedroom every morning.

Well, yeah.

She won't mind.

She'll think this is funny.

This is amazing.

Or like, or like if we go somewhere, it's like I drive because I have to drive everything because no one can drive me.

And

Kim has all these little caveats like built in.

Like she says she's got sleep apnea, which I don't think she does.

And she says that she.

Do you think it's weird that Kim and Catherine both fall asleep when you talk?

Or do you?

because that's a coincidence.

I'm just seeing a pattern.

She uh

no, but I'll give that some thought.

One thing I do know is that she gets in the front seat next to me, and then we fight the whole drive, and Catherine sits in the back seat and laughs.

Kim gets car sits everywhere we go.

It's me and Kim in the front.

And I'm not allowed to drive, apparently.

Like parents.

There's Brandy White knuckling it with Kim, and then I'm like the kid in the back, and I'm watching my parents argue.

It's like so fucked up.

This is your time alone.

Very entertaining.

This is your time that you go to your sleep.

I also fall asleep.

Yeah.

You're watching the real life.

So you don't, Abby, Abby and I have now finally decided after five years of trying to make it work that I just actually refuse.

I will never drive when Abby's in the car.

Thank God.

Like it's done.

It's over.

I made that decision about a month ago, too.

A month ago,

it's not worth it.

Someone's going to die.

I told you I was sorry about that.

I told you I was sorry.

Are you immediately driver?

Are you, are you, what is it called, a backseat driver?

Is that what you do?

Do you scare her?

Like Abby scares me.

Do you

mean to be fair?

I'm genuinely terrified.

Same.

And to be fair, how many cars have you hit in the last seven months, Gwen?

I mean,

how many?

This is a hard car.

How many contracts?

How many times have you hit

things?

I don't know.

I'm okay driving here.

We moved and the streets are thinner, right?

And so it's just like

they're not thinner than the cars.

they fit just as well when i drive

some of us just have things that we're good at that some of us have things that we're not yeah it's okay what came first because i i never had a complaint about my driving and and i ever i didn't have any accidents or anything and i drove on the other side of the road and i thought i was doing really well and i only deviated to the wrong side of the road once and oh that'll do it that'll be the best well she wasn't even in the car by the way but now i feel like she made me a really bad driver.

I feel like she's putting me on edge all the time.

And making me second.

That's true.

And by the way, when have all of my accidents been in just recently?

Can I ask you both a serious question?

You all feel good.

No, but can I ask you both a serious question?

Yeah.

When you're driving with Brandy and you're driving with me,

would you prefer to be driving?

Or would you prefer to

be in a passenger seat?

Let's be honest now.

I would prefer not to be driving.

See?

Because

I get yelled at.

That would be my answer.

You would prefer not to be driving because you are sleeping.

And you are sleeping every single drive.

It could be five minutes, it could be an hour.

You are asleep immediately.

She doesn't have heat in her goddamn house.

The biggest complaint I have.

Yeah.

The biggest complaint I have about Catherine firming is I think she will fall asleep.

I mean, if I feel sleepy, I wind the window down and I'm still fine.

I can turn off the she's a spiritual genius.

The sleeping thing is the answer.

It really works.

It really works.

She can really sleep, this girl.

Yeah.

So what ways do you feel like you are the most similar?

That's a good question.

I don't think we've ever been asked that before.

We're actually similar in so many ways.

I think we're both artists

for sure.

And, you know, there's a whole lot of who's going to protect us going on sometimes because when we transition into that place of being artists there's no adult in the room oh wow that's cool like what give me an example of what that looks like well i think you have to tune out and go into another place when you create um and we have two kids so we can't both do it at the same time um and that's interesting that's an interesting scenario um quite often that will be a source of frustration for me because i always feel like naturally that space should belong to brandy first and foremost because it's you know it's our bread and butter really whereas for me it's more of a hobby I guess we're really

highly sensitive to each other's writing like yeah my wife is so cool like there have been some times where well not sometimes every time if I and I don't write very often but if I do go glossy-eyed and I wind up at that piano and I'm I will look around 20 minutes later and every light in the house will be off.

There'll be a candle, a glass of wine, and she'll be gone and so will the kids.

Well, I mean, I'm witnessing, I'm like, she did it again.

Well, I'm witnessing something that's come in from

you're witnessing something that's come in from somewhere.

Tell me what you mean.

Well, well, she would say it comes from God, but I'm you know a British atheist, so it's hard for me to get on that.

You're agnostic, agnostic, yeah, sorry.

Whoops.

Um, it's so interesting that

every time Abby says she's atheist, I'm like,

I know, agnostic, agnostic, yes, I believe in something, I don't know what it is, agnostic, but um, no, and and she's not a disciplined writer and she doesn't

write all the time.

It's very whimsical.

It's very spontaneous to the point where she could just be going past the piano and just go plonk and then be like, ooh, and she'll sit down and then she'll write this masterpiece.

So for me, that's a really precious thing.

And I'll do anything I can to facilitate it because

I know how these things come and go.

And, you know, you should seize the moment with creativity, even if it's inconvenient, you know?

That's super magic.

Beautiful.

That reminds me of the real key thing: that's love is

protecting each other's solitude.

Yeah, I thought you were going to tell a story that that reminds me of a time when you did this.

No, it reminds me of a lot of people.

I don't know what I'm saying.

Are you going to tell them I've been loving habit, or do I have to?

Oh, yeah, she did.

Yeah.

I mean, come on.

Well, we live in a very small log cabin, and

I was, after a couple of years of marriage and, you know, two kids or whatever I was starting to crave some space and we have a very busy household lots of people coming and going all the time in the her favorite sound the driveway wheels on the on the road

and I was going solely insane at that point

so she

was very intuitive about it and she suggested I needed a room of one's own right Virginia Wolf I definitely didn't have that and she created that space for me she um me and those Amish guys yeah it was what is it like like a log cabinet?

Do they live with you also?

I came from Montana.

Hamish and Jables.

Stop it.

Swear to God.

No, dead serious.

Amish guys.

Amish and Jables.

Came out and stayed on the property for about five days and we built the cutest log cabin for Catherine.

It's filled with instruments and on her phone and things that she likes.

And she goes out there and writes all the time.

And I just installed blinds because I realized like I could still see all the things happening and I could still see my children.

So I have to like have a blind pulled down as well.

Yeah.

I had to work in the closet.

Yeah, that's right.

And then when I thought, oh, I need an office because I'm a grown-up, right?

So when we moved houses, I got a big office and I couldn't do it.

I wrote all untamed, even in our new house, in the closet.

In the closet of the office.

Yeah.

It was like a little troll, like underneath a eve.

And like, and it's one little teeny table and had to be with because of that.

I would still see, like, remember my life.

And I can't remember my life.

So you write, how often do you write?

How do we get to hear all of Brandy's stuff?

Oh,

just whenever I can, you know, it's not a priority for me.

I always choose work and kids and Brandy.

But on the rare occasion, I'm disciplined enough to be like, I'm going to that log cabin to write.

I typically have a great time and end up being really prolific and productive.

And I love it.

What do you love to write about?

I like to write for other people.

I find that really interesting to put my head in, you know, walk in somebody else's shoes and and try and write for somebody else.

That's a really good exercise as a writer if you feel like you're uninspired by your own happy life, you know.

I just, well, I write about my kids, about brandy, whatever's on my mind.

And do you not have, because we, one of the things we talk about is like

people say, well, there's a kite in every relationship and a kite holder.

And like, the kite holder is the one who holds the one who's out there and doing all the things.

And that, that's kind of bullshit, right?

Because then there's one person who always has to be grounded right so

we you know with us there's like somebody who's staying grounded and then switch sometimes yep do you guys feel that or do you not have a desire to be as out there i don't as brandy i don't know so you don't have anything that's like i wish i was doing that god no no

i um it makes me so nervous watching her have to do these terrifying things all day long all the time.

I'm much happier to just support and watch and

you know so no i don't i don't have a desire to do that but i'm very immersed in it and interested and inspired by it and i love i i yeah so no i don't want to get on stage and do that it's so terrifying right i remember seeing her we went to your um

i was about to say coming out party

yeah the album the release of the album we listened to the album

That night was so ridiculous.

Wasn't that fun?

Oh my God.

It was, okay, so a listening party.

So it was a bunch of people in a backyard

and it was the first time anybody had heard the new album.

Yeah.

And you performed some of it

on the ocean.

People just sat in couches and listened to it.

And I think it was the first time a lot of us had been out in long times.

Yeah.

And seeing hours.

And it was safe.

And it was outside and everybody's eating mac and cheese.

Yes.

And listening to the albums.

You rented sofas and so we were sitting on sofas outside and Catherine was so cutely nervous for you.

That's what I remember.

She came over and she's like, why does she want to do this crazy shit?

And why?

She was so sweet.

And so supportive and so beautiful.

And that was the night that everybody figured out that this album was going to be

insane.

It was so good and so moving.

I was really focused in on the couch you guys were.

I was like, really, it's really important to me, you know, what you guys think.

And it was really important to me and Catherine that you were there.

You know, and it was, that's why, you know,

that's why we sent you demos.

That's why it's like, you know, you're an important part of our lives.

And we see you guys as, you know, kind of pivotal peers,

don't we?

Yeah, absolutely.

Same.

Yeah.

There's a lot of similarities too in our relationships.

And it's weird.

It switches.

Yeah.

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Another reason, another thing that we struggle with is when we do have some sort of disagreement, this is now where we begin.

Right.

So we're done with that.

So

forever.

Yeah.

Forever.

We don't go backwards.

We start here and this is where we start.

Well, I feel like if you work really hard, you know how an argument is kind of like conflict is like you're working something out together.

Yeah.

What's the point of it if you're not getting to a new understanding, right?

And then I want to move on from that understanding.

I don't want to go backwards anymore because it's progress.

Having the same fight over and over again is a struggle for not coming.

I'm not sure.

Have you guys ever heard of the book?

Hear the book.

What is it called?

It's like

how let your son go down.

No, no.

Oh, that's the lyric based on the book.

But the book is called like, how to not talk about your marriage or how to no, how to not, uh, how to not talk about your fight, your problems.

What was it?

I don't know, but the whole, the whole premise of the book is like you know instead of the the concept of like

don't ever let the sun go down on your anger like you should always let the sun go down on your anger oh right right just let something pass for a long time before you talk about it then you'll know if it's still really important or not

go to sleep people yeah just go back

to the spiritual sleep well we've talked about that before my sister like what is that rule is so stupid like keep talking about it because you're at your worst like you're talking about something very sensitive so you should keep talking about it when you're exhausted Yeah.

Like that's your worst self.

Picture of the outcome happening in that situation.

It's just not going to happen.

We had an argument the other day.

What was it?

We ended up laughing at each other.

We were still in the middle of it.

We went and started cracking up laughing.

And I was like, well, okay, that one ended in the middle of it.

I think I said something like,

I barked at you and you barked at me.

I had said something rudy.

And I'm like, well, you really pissed me off.

And I was probably Kim.

And you were like, well, that's what you do.

You do this and I don't talk to you for two two days.

And I was like, well, can we just skip that?

But it just ended up being this like laughing thing where we were just laughing.

And I was like, well, that worked.

Is that the best?

Wasn't it Esther Perel who says sometimes when she's in the middle of a fight, she just lay down on the ground?

Right.

Because that's like injecting humor into how ridiculous something.

Like you can't, you can't keep angry momentum going on when something absurd happens.

Exactly.

We get to that point where we keep saying the same thing.

I'll say the same thing like five times.

She'll say the same thing five times.

And then all of a sudden we'll go, we just need a moment.

And then we take like a two-minute break.

We just don't say a word for like a couple minutes.

And then we're like,

I think we're good.

Are we good?

And it's like, we're not coming to a resolution.

Nobody's like winning here.

We're just, let's just like move on.

I think that that might be where like the 40s and 50s are at of age in terms of, because it's like, the more I know is the more I realize I have to just accept you for exactly who you are

and have no reason or need for you to ever change because

history has it.

It's just like never going to happen.

I'm never changing.

You're never changing until I want to change, you know, until you want to change.

What do you

want for your family and your relationship for this next chapter?

Like, what's your dream next?

Well,

for the pandemic to be over first and foremost, obviously.

My dream for my family is that we just find a way to stay together.

That's mine, too.

Like, let her answer this.

Let her don't do it.

Don't do it.

Stay together.

Stay together.

Stay together.

Well done.

I must have picked it up from you.

No, yeah, just to manage to stay together in a sane way in the midst of all this chaos and crazy times and working really hard and just, yeah, just keeping us together.

Do you mean physically?

Physically.

We like to experience things all together and even

not the great things, you know.

All of our traveling and our music and, you know, our activism, we like to do it as the four of us for as long as we can because we know that.

soon these kids will aggregate soon they're going to have their own yeah you know things and they might not want to come on the road and a time is coming when you know they're going to say mom i want to be with my friends or i want to go to the school i want to do this thing and since now now's not that time, I just want us to stay together for as long as we can.

Yeah, it's so beautiful how you do that.

Do you go everywhere together?

We try to, yeah.

I mean, it's not great a lot of the time.

You know, they get overtired.

I get irritable.

Brandy gets, you know, beside herself.

And it's, you know, we're all in this hotel room wondering why on earth we're not in our nice cozy log cabin.

But, you know, there's something beautiful in all the chaos.

I think.

I think so too.

Yeah.

We just keep doubling down on that codependence.

Just double down.

Yes.

That's right.

Just double down.

I love it.

I love it because what are you going to do?

Go have these experiences that change you.

And then that's how, that's the growing apart, right?

And then you're trying to explain it to each other.

When I'm on the road, like we get to the end of the day and we're supposed to be, you know, having healthy relationships or checking on the phone.

I can't check in on the phone.

You're the worst one.

I'm like, and there or here, and I can't do both.

And I can't translate life.

It's hard to translate life to someone.

So you either have to do it together.

Yeah.

I know what you mean.

And I will not call.

And it's like, she thinks it's a punishment, but it's like, if she doesn't come with me, I will not call.

It is a punishment.

She becomes very despondent.

She won't call.

She won't pick up the phone.

She's

feeling you did this.

You did this to yourself.

You did this.

I don't call you.

What about what do you want for your family?

Oh, God.

I mean, our family is changing so much.

What's that like?

Because Chase is gone now.

You know, he just came back.

He's not gone.

He's in college.

He's gone forever.

He's gone.

And we just had him back for the first time.

And it was really emotional for me because I think I had this fear.

And I told him this halfway through, that when you raise them your way, right?

Like you teach them all the things and you teach them your way, your way of thinking and how you think about the world.

And like you do your best.

And then you send them away.

And you realize when they leave, they're going to learn about other families and how they did it and other ideas.

And like,

like they're going to start judging you for real.

Because you can't really judge a situation until you're out of it.

Yeah.

Till you see another situation, till you talk to other people who are no, they're not near their parents to like, oh, no, it's all your family.

Like, what is it?

I like my parents.

And so it's scary because it's like this, it feels, it's not, but it feels like a test of everything that you've done for the past.

Like send them out and see if they still like you, if they still want to to come to you if they still go on you know and like i can get so weird with chase because he's the first like he'll he he'd come into the room and i'd like turn it from the real housewives to a documentary on turtles so he would think i'm like no literally smart and like literally literally she was in the bathtub in our bedroom in our in our bed bathroom and i was upstairs in the top floor and she texted me and she's like what are you watching and i'm like my show nobody's up there i'm by myself she said I would prefer it if you don't watch any

killing or any kind of thing in the common areas.

But you guys, the vampires, the killing, the guns.

Like, it's just

all she watches.

It's called Last Kingdom for Netflix.

It's what I do when I'm alone.

But like, to be fair, I saw, you know, the Instagram of you in the bathtub looking like.

There was not an ounce of energy left in your soul.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's like, if somebody's visiting and you, especially somebody as important as your child, and you set yourself aside for long enough, you're going to think it's them you're sick of and ready for them to leave, but really, you're just sick of not being able to be yourself.

That's right.

I mean, Brandy, that's the story of my life.

That's right.

Wow.

That's right.

One time, my friend said, We're going to New York to go to this meeting, and I said, I know it was like a fancy thing, and it was for a publisher's meeting.

I said, What am I supposed to do?

And she said, Just be yourself.

And I said, I don't know how much longer I can keep that up.

So, anyway, the point is, he came home and he still loves us and he just hung out

on her report card.

Wow.

It wasn't like a report card.

It's just like an energy that when you want them to come home and feel like

you're a resting place.

Yeah.

You know, like you're

a charging station or like a safe, good place to come back to.

And that's how it felt.

So I don't know.

It's just, I guess with family, it's like.

And we both are keenly aware of being in an environment in high school where you couldn't, where I couldn't be my full self.

So going to college was a, was a, was paradise.

Was like, I, it was like going to the place I could finally become myself.

And so going home for the holidays, or I never went home for, for summer.

for

break.

I just stayed in college because that's where I felt like myself.

And so it's just really important for us as parents that our kids can feel like their true full self at their house.

That's what I, that's what I mean.

Like, I'm just like, do you

feel like this is the place where you're held and free?

Yes.

Or do you feel like you left and now you can be free?

That's right.

And so that's what you're trying to figure out.

And as a parent, you're kind of like,

hoping that they, they, because you don't know.

You only hope.

And then when you kind of get confirmation oh no they do feel free i did it how i wanted to do it because the way that might be impacted might be different this is an elaborate way for you to tell us we have to accept the american girl doll

but are these the kinds of things you have to think about now with kids that are this age yes because i mean i i think about this all the time how do you

how do you keep them wanting to be with you That's right.

That's what it is.

How?

My entire life is just trying to keep them wanting to be with me.

It's pathetic.

You just keep telling them that they're perfect.

And then whoever they show up every day is exactly who you want to be around.

That's it, right?

My plan is like four-wheelers or zip lines.

Okay.

That will be probably also sprinkled within.

But what if you have a poet child who doesn't want to go on?

Like, if you said that to me, what did you just say?

Say that again?

Like, my plan is like four-wheelers or zip lines.

Unsafe.

Not safe.

Well, there's always my roast potatoes or her roast potatoes.

If I have a poet, I will say, if you come round to me and mommy's house we're gonna have glenn and nabby okay there you go

look how smart we are it's glenny and abby want to come around because what if and and i just pose this as a question what if elijah or evangeline are the kind of person that what if they're just like uber femme like so like like what they might be then feeling in your house is the exact thing that you are feeling.

Like, oh, oh, I think so.

You know, I think

that's a good thing.

I'm really sensitive to this because, like, what you're talking about is absolutely playing itself out all the time.

There are things that, you know, they that are so natural to them.

This nurture nature concept is fascinating to me all the time.

Um, they have, at least at this point in their lives, embraced a gender expression that,

you know, I've got to learn to navigate and Catherine's got to learn to navigate.

And both of us are just like, look at our hands.

It's so hard.

Look at her hands.

Look at my gay hands.

Yeah.

Look at our gay hands.

But I mean, with the exception of the American girl doll, I love it.

Yeah.

Really?

I love it.

Yeah.

And I've got, I've really taken to like, you know, ordering when they switched from pajamas to nightgowns, that was a big one for me because I love little babies in their pajamas.

It's the cutest thing you've ever seen, you know, with the footies and everything.

And they're like, we want nightgowns and we want like lace on these things and frill and

it was and you were able to embrace it yeah they looked like human cupcakes yeah they looked like human cupcakes I mean when you last time you guys came and Evangeline came she had you guys had gotten her a um

like a little silver barrette that was crystals on it yeah she

gave that to you she gave it to me well you obviously did make it upstairs even though you didn't take the book report

she gave you she gave me the precious thing.

Yeah, I'll just never forget when she told you you guys were going to play that game and there had a timer on it.

It's like, so Evangeline.

She's like, I don't get timed.

Yeah, that was it.

I used that timer real fast.

And you're like, okay.

Yeah.

She does not get time.

As if it had already been decided by a committee.

Yes.

I like it, though.

Heidi knows.

She knows the stipulations.

This is like revolutionary.

The stuff we're talking about, it's a sentence, two couples just having a conversation, but LGBTQIA domesticity family discussions, they really are radical.

The concept of it is radical.

I could not have imagined it when Catherine and I got married illegally without a license all those years ago to think that, you know, not only are we all really married, but we're sitting here talking with kids as atypical parents and every

by every definition about how to navigate these waters that we are really finally able to get a glimpse at.

It's, it's radical.

It feels good and it feels like home, but also it's pretty crazy.

And I think maybe this could have something to do with like the homophobia that my mom might have struggled with during

my teenage years, not knowing if I'm.

I'm wondering if you could ever have a life like that.

I could have what she has.

Yeah.

Because I couldn't then.

Almost impossible.

I want to extend a little bit of compassion.

Totally.

Yeah.

I feel that way now.

Hopefully that sense of grief is going to become a thing of the past because I think that was my mom's default:

am I going to have grandkids today?

Yeah.

But yeah, hopefully that's going to go away.

Yeah.

And are you really living rad?

Yes.

One has produced a song with Brandy Carlisle.

Speaking of.

Speaking of what?

We will let you listen to that right now.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I have loved this so much.

So fun.

Every minute of it.

It was amazing.

We can do hard things.

Oh, guys.

we had to do it on a podcast to finally have a real double date.

I know, right?

I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle.

I walked through fire, I came out the other side.

I chased desire,

I made sure I got what's mine,

And I continue

to believe

That I'm the one for me

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on map

A final destination

we lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find a way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a hard thing.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem,

sometimes things fall apart.

and I continue to believe

the best

people are free.

And it took some time,

but I'm finally fine.

Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are back.

A final destination

we lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find

our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do hard things

for adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

We might get lost, but we're okay okay with that.

We've stopped asking directions

in some places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find

our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do hard things.

Yeah, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we

can do hard

things.

We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios.

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