76. Brandi Carlile: Live From My Couch!

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We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things and I'm not going to waste your time by talking too much because we have a really exciting thing going on on today.

Brandy Carlisle

is a six-time Grammy Award-winning singer-songwriter, performer, producer, number one New York Times best-selling author.

Remember that day?

No, I thought you were the first person I called.

Oh, an activist who is known as one of music's most respected voices about her new album, which debuted at number one.

on Billboard's Americana folk albums chart and is played on loop in our home.

Seriously.

The New York Times said, larger than life and achingly human, she empathizes, apologizes, and lays out accusations.

She's righteous and she's self-doubting.

It makes me emotional, actually.

And NPR Music said, absolutely breathtaking, across the whole album, Brandi Carlisle pulls out all the stops.

It's just extraordinary.

She's just claiming rock god status.

Brandy lives in Seattle with her wife, Catherine, who is in this room, and their children, Evangeline and Elijah.

But right now, the rock god herself is sitting across from me in my living room.

Hi, friend.

Hi.

Why are you all in LA?

I didn't even ask you.

I mean, we came to do some tanya music and a lot of us just to see you.

I wanted to be here with you when we do this.

Well, I was just thinking that you should have been here yesterday, Brandy, because we had the most lesbian day ever.

Abby made me go to a place

that is called REI.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, okay.

Well, we were there for two hours

and

people kept coming up to me in these green vests and saying, can I help you?

And I kept saying, I like your nature costume, but I don't think so.

And I kept following Abby around because she was in heaven and there were so many carabiners.

Yeah.

So many.

And in every aisle, it just feels like a bear could pop out.

Do you like REI?

I do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I mean, the people that work there find me too.

They see the gay in you.

They see it.

It's like Namas Gay.

Like the gay in me sees the gay in you.

Maybe that was my problem.

Maybe they couldn't see the gay in me.

And because people do tend to not see the gay in me.

And then they thought I was in the wrong place.

And that may have been it.

They just saw it.

I see it.

They come up to me too.

I mean, everybody sees the gay in me.

Okay.

Me too.

Me too.

Nama's gay.

Okay.

So the name of this podcast is We Can Do Hard Things.

I know.

It feels as if

your last year,

just as your friend and an admirer of your work and an admirer of your entire family,

it feels so shiny and wonderful and beautiful.

And it all is.

What's hard for you right now?

well i think um

it's it's hard for me to not know how to come back into being who i was before the whole world stopped you know

and i think maybe that that um you know i could get more comfortable with that being okay that'd be good because maybe there was some of that stuff that maybe could be left behind

yeah feels like so much of what you're doing right now is about what we're leaving behind and what we're taking with us yeah so broken horses when i was thinking about what I wanted to talk to you about today, a lot of it's about love, family love, art love, divine love, all of it.

But what I think is interesting about the two of us is that two of our first big conversations that really started our friendship were kind of disagreements.

Okay.

Yeah.

So one was about queerness, and we'll get to that in a minute.

But the first one, well, we were talking a lot during broken horses during when you were writing the book, right?

And my genius idea for you was that you should not name the book Broken Horses.

The book that

then went absolutely crazy and people say is the best title on earth.

I told you that was not a good title.

Yeah, but, you know, disclaimer, you're the person that wrote Untamed.

So I can see why instinctually that would not be the title.

Yes.

And I think it's because, and I want to get into this, because I think it's because when I read

the title Broken Horses, I thought that broken horses meant a tamed horse.

Because, right?

I mean, I'm not a horse person.

Clearly, you know, the REI story.

I don't know a lot about outside, but a horse that has been broken is a tamed horse, right?

So I thought that you were saying that you were broken.

And that that was beautiful, but that's not exactly, explain to me what broken horses means and meant to you.

Well, broken horses means, you know, I saw it the way my five-year-old at the time saw it, you know, which was,

um, that's why I named it that is that she pointed out because she'd been asking for a horse or a pony, you know, since she could speak.

And I kept telling her how expensive they were.

And she was overhearing me and Catherine try to suss the title for the book.

And,

you know, we was talking about being poor about, like, you know, growing up in poverty.

And she was like, hey, wait a minute you had horses though and if you were poor how did you get a horse you know and i was like well actually i just i always had broken ones you know broken knees and broken pasts and things like that and um broken lineage and she said well you used to call your book broken horses and so i was just like oh yeah these these entities that came into my life were so substantial it would literally would not have taken the path that it took without a minute

And they were just the most unbroken thing in the world, but they were only accessible to me because of their brokenness.

And I saw

the arc of like my artistry in that metaphor too.

And when I explained it to you, you had a response that actually made me rethink it.

But it isn't something you should say irresponsibly.

It isn't something you should say without thinking about it because you didn't want any of my

fans or the people that like my music to feel like they were told they were being broken.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or that there was anything honorable about that.

But

the amazing thing, the more I think about it over and over again, your title and what you are saying about that,

is that, I mean, you said, I mean, broken in some obvious way, an apparent flaw that would suggest that the animal can no longer serve his man-made, human-serving purpose work.

And when I think about about that, I think about,

it reminds me of my mental illness.

This thing that I knew about myself really young

that made me

unable

to be purposeful to the system.

Yeah.

To serve the status quo.

To serve the system.

So it was like, at some point, I was unuseful.

Yeah.

And The more I understood that I was unuseful, the more I was able to be creative.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

It's like, and undoubtedly you've shaped people and changed and altered the course of people's lives from that perspective.

It's so interesting because there's this scene, this part in Jenny Odell's book, How to Do Nothing, which you have to read.

It's so beautiful.

Okay.

But it's about this tree.

And there's this tree.

It's like the single standing tree in this park in California somewhere.

And the reason it's still standing is because when they came to cut down all the trees to use them for lumber, this tree was so twisty and weird and weak looking that they didn't take it down.

Like, uh,

it was unuseful

for capitalism,

so they left it, and its unusefulness is why it was allowed to live.

So, sometimes it's our weirdness

that makes us

ultimately the most beautiful because we were unuseful.

Yeah, we should be so lucky.

Yeah,

everybody just needs to be as unuseful as possible.

Yeah, to capitalize.

The book that you just read, I wrote that after you told me not to name the book Broken Horses.

I knew I had to go take a stock in, you know,

into why I wanted to call it that.

And basically realized I needed to explain it, not just to everyone else, but to myself, you know, so you, you were such an important part of

me being brave enough to put that.

book out.

And I remember I called you and I was like, I think I hate,

I think I hate my book title.

It's like the second time I'd ever spoken to you.

You're like, this is a pre-vulnerability freak out.

Yeah.

You're fine.

And I was like, yeah, but it's called Heroes and Songs.

And you're like, yeah, no, that's not your book title.

Actually, this is not a vulnerability test.

That's just a sucky ass title.

No, it's true.

Remember when they were trying certain, there were people who were trying to get you to like fancy up your talk in the book?

Yeah.

Do you remember that?

Yes.

You were like, do I need to make it?

They were like talking about it.

It's like an Instagram caption.

Yeah, that was so interesting.

And you were like, do I need to make it fancier?

Like, do I need to make this seem more writerly or something?

And I was like, they're going to, you're, all of us are going to cry if you change your voice

for this book.

And then, okay, this is my favorite.

And you're going to have to help me remember some of this because I've been trying so hard to remember it this week.

One time we had never spoken before.

And I had gotten on Instagram and done a thing about how I did not relate to born this way.

The born this way narrative.

I know.

Yeah.

How I felt like, with all due respect to everyone who does feel a connection with, yes, I was born this way,

that that's not how my experience has been, that I have experienced sexuality to be more fluid and

more of like an energy that can go in many different ways.

And you called me on the phone and you were like, hi, this is Brandy Carlisle.

Can we talk?

Do you remember that day?

I think very well.

Yes.

That should have been a podcast in and of itself.

That was an incredible conversation.

Why did you call me?

Well, okay, my wife had just read Love Warrior and Untamed.

And she was talking about you all the time.

And so we started following you on Instagram.

And we were discussing.

you and Abby like a lot before we knew you.

Some things are just that way, soulmates and stuff, you know?

And I remember her, she put the kids to bed without me and she was coming down the stairs and I had just read the post and I'm like, there's something really unsettling for me about this Glennon Doyle gal's recent Instagram post.

It bothers me.

I think there's, I think it might be irresponsible or something.

And

Catherine's like, well, you have no idea how cool she is.

Like she wants to talk through all this kind of stuff.

And, you know, she's really brave and she is not afraid to take risks and say things and then learn in retrospect about what it is that she thinks or feels or whatever, and which is a skill I really wish I had more of a handle on.

And she said, You should call her.

She'll totally want to talk to you about it.

And then I was like, I needed to get open to your perspective too.

And so I just spent a couple of days thinking about it.

And then we got in touch and had a really, really transformative for me

conversation.

And then I knew we were going to be doing that probably for the rest of our lives.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Same.

It was so beautiful because

basically I remember you saying to me, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Let's talk about just, you know,

not

claiming the born this way

idea, right?

The idea being that it is dangerous to kind of part from that.

For real, it's dangerous because there are people all over the country and world who are only avoiding conversion therapy

because their very religious parents can hang on to this born this way narrative.

Yeah, it's one of the reasons, exactly.

One of the reasons some people still really need born this way.

Right.

And to some people, it's just applicable.

And so it's like we can't take it away.

We don't have to submit to it if it's not, you know, our narrative, but I know that some people still really need it.

And if they were to see something on a person that's, you know, been so righteously and so well platformed,

I, you know, I remember, I think if I had seen that as a little girl, I would be like, oh, God, I hope my mom doesn't see this.

That's so interesting.

Yeah.

And the same part of you, oh, I hope my mom doesn't see this.

Oh, God, that's so good.

Yeah.

And the same, that exact thing is why it pisses me off so much.

I know.

It's because I have spent so much of my life

bowing down to

ridiculous religious bigotry that it pisses me off to have to like

censor myself or

succumb to to any narrative that is only in place or largely in place because it capitulates to that religious bigotry, right?

Yeah.

For me, for somebody who relates to it completely, it's perfect.

For someone who doesn't, but has to say they do,

it's like, I guess it just feels like I am having to change who I am

to make the religious people

accept me.

But I don't give a shit whether they do or not.

I love that about you.

Right?

Like, I just, I don't know.

But it was the point is it was a beautiful conversation.

And you helped me.

I remember you saying something like,

I know that you feel like, you know, you see the pride flags and old Navy has pride flags and everyone's celebrating all the queer people.

And you think that everyone's accepted the queer people, but they've only accepted like 10 of us.

Yeah.

And two of them are on this call.

Yeah.

Exactly.

It's not, it's not important to remember.

Isn't that so important to keep in the backs of our minds, you know?

And I like stand on that stage every night and I look out at all of the people that are accepted and rejected for whatever reasons.

And it's just palpable.

And it's just not complete.

And not only is it not complete, it's not even entirely safe yet.

You know?

I know.

And so there's just so much more.

work to do simultaneous to celebration, which is what I love about the queers.

We've always celebrated through oppression, always.

And I mean, I think about like labels, you know, getting more and more

rejected in the LGBTQIA plus community.

And I, I, that both scares me and encourages me.

It's like, I think I gave you this analogy when we were talking on the phone, but I remember when I was young and I lived out in the foothills and Maple Valley and Black Diamond and Enom Claw and the cow towns of Washington state, to go into Seattle,

I would go to the same place every time, Broadway up on Capitol Hill.

And you could go into the stores and all the little knickknacks and the things they were selling had pink triangles and rainbows.

And I wanted all the rainbows and all the pink triangles.

And it was the place that I could go to be gay.

And it wasn't like I was in the closet anywhere.

It's just, it's just always weird everywhere.

But there I was not weird at all.

And we would do gay pride there every year.

And everything from finding a parking spot to the end of the day was fun, even before I could get into bars and drink.

and there was this point where um the city uh council they met and they they wanted to move the parade from broadway

into the city where all of the big parades all the straight people parades are and i was so mad i didn't like that forced assimilation thing and i skipped a year and then i went the year after and i saw these straight people there with their kids I was like, okay, this is good.

What parts of us like assimilate and what parts of us hold hold on to um our labels because you know abandoning all identity in terms of um

terms like born this way or the words that we use or the cultural um icons that we put up on pedestals and they become our defining things you know

it's like they keep us from becoming disenfranchised from each other yeah you know yeah when we still need to be kind of gluey

Yeah, because there's so many people who are like,

Abby and I were just talking to friends the other day who were like, assimilation is not what we want.

Like we don't want to be like, like, I think it's people who are that tree who like resisted for so long to stay so beautiful.

Yeah.

And then.

suddenly like get thrown into the useful category.

It's like, but that's not what we were doing the whole time.

Exactly.

It's kind of like, we want people to cross the line and to see who we are into our world, but we don't want to be asked to cross the line into your world, even no matter how beautiful the invitation is, you know?

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Well, and in terms of the labels and all of that, I guess I just feel

like,

you know, a kid who doesn't want their mom to see a woman saying,

actually born this way isn't exactly what I identify with.

I feel like there was a time in my life where I was like,

I feel open to that, but there was a choice to pursue it.

I want and demand equality and justice for myself and all queer people not just because they were born this way but if they woke up last tuesday this way yeah right like it's not because it's inherent it's because it's like i know we need that for court cases right that's an argument that people use right to get us rights yes so it's helpful yeah right

but when you think about it that's not

why can't we all use a religious space ironically yeah right like what they get religious exemptions they weren't born christian right or born Buddhist.

Good point.

Why can't we just use a different freaking, and especially let's use religion because that's like a karate chop Jedi move.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

But I just think there's different ways to approach it.

And I guess I just, I don't want any apology in my.

No.

And I like that, like the way that you look at it so in like the irreverent, like, well, what is it?

What if it's even better?

What if it's a better choice?

Well, it is better for God's sake.

Tan France was saying that the other night at a dinner we were at.

He was telling somebody was,

you know, somebody was lamenting their relationship.

And he's like, darling, yeah, men and women just don't go together.

They don't.

It's so unnatural.

And I have been, I have tried both.

I'm just saying I feel so terribly bad for my straight friends.

And they feel bad for themselves.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, but when you think about it, and they feel bad for themselves.

They do.

But why do you, why do we call that unnatural?

The most, it is so hard to bridge the gap of like gender conditioning in this country.

Especially, it's amazing.

Like trying to talk to a man is very difficult.

I don't know if you've ever tried it.

I find it really easy.

Oh, God.

But tell me more about that.

I just, I don't know.

I think that,

well, it depends on about what.

Okay.

I don't, I think in a relationship

with one,

I don't know.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think I would find that quite easy.

To talk to, to relate deeply to a man, do you think it's because?

But I don't think he'd be able to relate to me.

Okay.

I have a theory that it's not the men that I don't like talking to.

It's the man character.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

And maybe it's because you're not doing the female character that they feel like they don't have to do their

fundamentally.

You just said, you explained it.

I was like, why is it easy for me?

And you just explained it.

Yeah, that's why.

And because Abby, I mean, the difference between, if there's one man, the difference in the conversation between the way Abby speaks with the man and it's in me, it's night and day.

Is it?

It's night and day.

Oh my God.

I wonder if Catherine feels the same way.

But

I mean, there's so many assumptions to be made that they don't understand, that no, no one would understand about you, you know, initially.

I guess there's some common language.

One of them is like music.

Music is,

I think, in terms of it being successful is traditionally such a man thing.

You know, and men are really really fascinated with all people that play music so that's always a a a common ground and she has sports and she's kicked their ass in something that she they feel respect it's probably the same for both of you they feel respect because that you both have entered a world in which they have historically been dominant and are crushing yeah okay i want to ask you about the new album that Abby and I over and over again listened to in our home.

Okay,

this album, and I heard you say this, so you tell me if it's true.

You wrote Broken Horses

and then you just felt like you had an album pouring out that needed to pour out of you.

Is that the case?

Can you tell me about that?

Because that actually pissed me off.

Okay.

Because I've never done a huge creative project, finished it, and then been like, what I really need to do is do another huge creative project.

What have you done next?

What do you do next?

Like, so you close the thing, you send this off to your editor, and you're like, okay, I did it.

What do you do next

well actually i started a podcast so i guess okay yeah all right right

exactly i see what you're saying

carlio yeah it's like you're still the wheels are still turning you know you don't want to stay on the same track but you're like it's like yeah you know

you can't just put the brakes on right when it's flowing it's sort of flowing and like when i close that book after writing the thing about the horses prompted by you i um

that's what i love about this podcast we don't have to like sit around and pretend like I didn't send you demos and stuff like that, do we?

No, it's so wonderful.

I closed the computer and I got straight up and I walked right out to my keyboard, which is 10 steps away, blew the dust off it, fired it up and wrote throwing good after bad.

No.

Yeah.

Like all at once in one setting.

I played for Catherine.

I'm like, is this song really weird?

And she's like, I don't know.

And you sit with it for a few days.

And I sent it to Emily Sellyers from Indigo Girls.

Yeah.

Yes.

I love it.

And she liked it.

And I was like, no, actually, I think it's really good.

I think it might be the direction that I'm headed in.

And that just really inspired me.

So one of the first songs you sent us was Werewolf, the werewolf song.

And I just don't know why everyone's not talking.

I feel like on this album, everyone's talking about all the other songs and no one's talking about the werewolf song enough.

But Abby and I sat and listened to that song.

Okay.

You can tell me if it's not about this.

So I'm totally wrong.

Okay.

Because you know how when you're going through something in your own life, you think everyone's talking about that thing and they might not be.

Uh-huh.

But, okay, well, first of all, I need to read the, you probably know your own lyrics.

It's called Mama Werewolf.

Yeah.

And there's this part that says, if my good intentions go running wild, if I cause you pain, my own sweet child, won't you promise me you'll be the one, my silver bullet in the gun?

Okay, so are you saying there that

If you do any of the hurtful shit that your family of origin passed down, that you want your kid to be the one to snuff it out of you, whatever it takes.

Is that what that's saying?

Not, not to be.

Damn it.

Yes.

No.

Actually, exactly that.

Okay.

I just want to, I just want to be shown.

You know, like

the silver bullet doesn't like, it stops the werewolf from being the werewolf, but it doesn't like kill the

carrier of the passenger.

Do you know what I mean?

And I don't expect it to be their responsibility, although I'm so innately codependent.

I just keep keep doubling down on that.

But that's why I sing the song because of that,

that measure of lines and because of that definition that you just gave.

It's like, absolutely, if you catch me doing

what I endured,

just show me.

So when you sent us that song, it was a week after.

You know Tish, you know our Tish.

Of course.

Okay.

I haven't told this story and I won't, I'm not going to tell it completely.

I'll I'll just tell a little bit, but we had been together with my whole family of fortune.

And Tish, in a very dramatic moment, had pulled me out of the room and said,

what is happening in our family is not okay.

And you're not doing anything about it.

And

it was, she was totally right.

We did what families do, which is we don't talk about it.

We just pretend, we just become different people.

But she pointed it out and it was so uncomfortable.

And it led to this huge family rift.

And, you know, we're healing, but it was, it's, it's that, right?

Yeah, I guess she did it.

She's, was the silver bullet

in that situation.

Yeah.

So, what are you, what are you trying to

so much of your work in life, I think, is like a third way.

It's like how you are with religion.

It's like how you are with music.

It's how you are with your family.

It's like not, not the first thing.

I'm not going to be obedient to what the pattern is, the norm.

Yeah.

But I'm not going to throw it away either.

Like faith.

I'm not going to do it the religious toe-the line way, but I want it in my life.

So I'm going to create this third way.

Yeah.

What are you working on

leaving behind from old patterns in your family, your old family, or your old way of life or your whatever, and bringing to your children now?

I think that

the thing that

is most interesting about the way that I

parent and probably sets Kath on edge the most is that, you know, there are things about being parented by essentially

eternal non-conformist teenagers that I really like

and that I sort of think are okay.

And it's kind of Captain Fantastic-y and kind of,

you know, fringe.

And, you know, I'm having to

have to confront a culture of how much of that is okay all the time.

And I always will be.

There's always going to be a part of me that's really erratic, doesn't want to follow the rules, wants us to be different, you know, wants us to be unnaturally close.

There are parts of me that are just intense.

And those parts, you know, feel okay to pass on for right now.

And I probably won't find out until my kids are older which parts of that aren't okay and which parts are, you know?

Or they'll just totally screw you by going the other way.

They'll become like Alex Piquetin's.

Like, do you remember the show where they were hippies and then the yes yeah and he had the blazer and he was like the republican yes if there's if there could be a chance that evangeline becomes republican and you know some she's been i don't know if this is unrelated but this is something i'm totally freaked out about is you know the girls their dad david who was

my

uh my first and only ever boyfriend from the time we were like 11 to where it just i don't even know if it ever did end it just sort of stopped being that way

And, you know, but he's always been my,

my person who's a guy.

When Kathy and I met, I was like, you have to meet this David character and see what you think.

And she was instantly like the same as me.

But he's, you know, probably going to hear this.

I'm not going to say empty, but just very like.

You know, he's a lone wolf.

He doesn't like speak.

He doesn't talk about his feelings.

He doesn't express himself.

He doesn't come around.

He, he stood me up for his own 30th birthday.

You know, throwing, he forgot our wedding.

He's like, you know what I mean?

He's never going to be

dad or best friend or any of those things.

He's just David.

And from a time we were kids, I knew he loved me and I love, I loved and still love him.

And I could always express myself to him.

But all he could ever say to me was, you're the best.

You're the best.

You know, it'd be like, we used to sleep in the same bed, totally innocuous.

We'd hold hands and just go to sleep in the same bed, you know, like 13 year olds.

And his mom would turn out the light and he'd go, you're the best.

And we'd go to sleep.

It's just something you used to say to me.

And I was like, can you ever say more than that?

Like, what?

Is that all you got?

You're the best?

Like, and Evangeline has started saying, you're the best

to me.

And it freaks me out because she doesn't know him.

And it's, and she looks like him.

She's got his identical face.

And as soon as she says it, talk about werewolf.

I'm like, you need to say more than that.

I don't even know what that means.

You need to explain yourself.

Don't you know people that don't know how to explain themselves in life don't get what they want?

And she's like, you're the worst.

Calfred says to me, she's like, she's so

competitive, as you've experienced.

You know, I don't get timed, she tells you.

She's so competitive that being the best is the greatest compliment she can give.

You're not the second best.

You're not the one that loses.

You're the best.

Yeah.

Well, I'm just going to to say real quick, I'm not bitter about this and I want you to know I'm not, but the last time you guys were over here, when I played with Evangeline for four hours, I got hated.

Okay.

And then Abby showed them her gold medal for 30 seconds.

And then Evangeline wrote a report on her the next day.

Was I anywhere in the report?

I know.

No, I wasn't even in the freaking report.

Because I wasn't the best at anything.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Abby is the best.

She's to,

she's the best.

But you're competitive.

Oh, as soon as I went home, I got down all my Grammy medals.

And I was like, but look what mama has.

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okay how does that that work?

I need to know how

you, how a person is like a bleeding artist, like a vulnerable, weird,

queer artist,

and then is also

super competitive in

the world, in the world, in like institutions, in lists, in like whatever.

How do you, I know in your book a lot, you say you're two people,

but how does that work?

Do you you drive yourself crazy?

I mean, you're probably the most intuitive, perceptive person I know.

I think you probably have a more accurate, you know, take on it.

I always say I'm not competitive, I'm driven

because I want to win.

Yeah, I just don't want anyone else to lose.

Yeah,

I really don't.

Like,

I would love everybody to just win.

And I know that's not like real life, you know?

And also, I don't mind being

like sidelined or not getting.

I mean, I pay attention to those critic lists at the end of the year, the New York Times and, you know, Rolling Stone and

American Songwriter and Variety.

Like, I pay attention to like their.

top 50 albums or whatever.

Like, and I, my heart, it's like I stop at 50, you know, and it'll be like, oh, 50 through 46.

And then 46 through.

And you know, you click on one and it shows those.

And I'm like, okay, I'm not at the bottom.

And then I click on the next one, it shows the next.

I'm like, okay, well, I'm somewhere near the middle then, you know?

And when it gets to that top five, my heart is like pounding in my throat because I'm so afraid I won't be in it.

And then I just miss the list altogether.

That's so vulnerable and nice for you to say.

And this year, I looked at all the lists and there was, there's a woman who sent me her album.

before anyone else heard it and I lost my mind over this album.

It's so good.

She's called Allison Russell.

And I did that with these lists, but I didn't have like the heart in my throat thing because I was so invested in her making

the top 10 of all these lists that I was, I was searching for her album cover that I've come to like understand exactly how it looks.

And I can spot it out of a lineup now.

And I was like, I really don't.

I am a different kind of competitive person.

I really like to see other people win and do well.

I don't want to be rejected, but I don't want anybody else to be either, you know?

Yeah.

That's really cool.

But Catherine, she does want other people to lose.

Oh my God.

She will like, she'll be like, oh, did you see the bloody, you know, list that you, you're number 47 or whatever.

And she's like, and so-and-so is number five.

And that album's not anything.

It's like, God, I love that woman.

She gets so jealous.

And I'm like,

I recognize it enough to know I don't feel that way, like genuinely don't.

Like I'd be happy to own it if I did.

But don't you think it's part of the it allows you to be like you because she's like that?

Probably.

Yeah.

If there was nobody cursing other people for winning, you couldn't be this, um, you know, evolved zen-like human who didn't care.

It's because you have a fighter right next to you who will take them all down for you.

Oh, yeah, that girl ain't having it.

All right, what people who are listening to don't know is that they're going to get a treat because we're going to actually do a double date for our next episode with Catherine.

So I don't want to give away too much of that.

But before she comes and we hear directly from her, tell us, what do you love about Catherine the most?

The thing I love about Catherine the most is

I'm so

predisposed to making sort of snap and lasting judgments about people.

And I just see everyone as fully accountable for themselves and capable of making better choices.

And I've always been that that way.

It's not my favorite thing about myself.

And I think as I've gotten older, because of Catherine, it's gotten better than me.

Catherine sees every person as an eight-year-old and not in a condescending way.

Somebody that I would think is a bad person, she'd be like, oh, he's just a bit naughty.

You know, he's cheeky.

He's all he's sparkly, darling.

You know, like she sees everyone's,

everyone's kid.

She sees everyone's kid.

And it's made me realize, like, we're all just kids running around growing up.

That's right.

I wonder if it it was Catherine who inspired this.

I put, I'm going through this thing where I'm trying to make this show.

So I'm dealing with a lot of Hollywood people,

which is a whole new world

and awesome in many ways.

But now it's awesome because we have the right team.

Anyway, I put a little sign next to my, next to my computer that said, everyone is a little tiny baby.

Just for that.

For that reason?

Yeah, because I realized everyone you're talking to it's like we all have these grown-up suits on but catherine's exactly right we are all just these little terrified babies inside yeah and our feelings get hurt when other people say stuff and then we say horrible things or but really it's because we're hurt yeah

and so you just have to remember everyone you're talking to is a little tiny baby yeah with all this potential and all this ability to be different next year or you know life is long i think instead of short and you know all those things are like just have been really good for me.

Um, you know, but also just I think, I think it's magical.

And her friendships are like

eternal.

And

she's just, she's sparkly.

She's a very sparkly person.

Yeah, she is.

Yeah.

And you guys are really similar.

March 20th is your birthday.

Your four is on the Enneagram.

Do you know that Catherine and I are both fours and we both were born on March 20th?

And do you know that you and Abby were only born one day apart?

She's June 2nd.

What?

Yeah.

Isn't that weird?

I didn't know that.

What year?

80.

81.

It's weird, right?

That is weird.

I know.

There is something about birthdays.

I mean, I love the Enneagram and it is uncanny how

it is weird.

I'm going to do a show on that soon.

It's very, and I just also love when people tell me who I am.

Like, just tell me.

And then I can like, and then I can just like have all these reasons.

Like, I keep taking COVID tests and every time it's negative, I guess I'm happy, but then I'm always, I'm kind of like, oh, so I just like feel this this way.

I'm just this tired and cranky.

Oh, I find you totally intoxicating.

You're, you know, you're never cranky to me, but if you ever want to be, I accept it.

Thank you.

And it's fine.

I appreciate it.

Because, you know, I've got Catherine to see you as an eight-year-old.

That's right.

And I love that.

If we ever get in a fight, I'm going to be like, can you talk to Catherine about it first before you just

condemn you to a life of crankiness for my self-righteous, cranky pedestal?

Okay, so speaking of love, I recently heard you say, which made my heart just like, okay, you were doing an interview.

You've done 7 trillion interviews, especially right after Saturday Night Live, which by the way,

did you, was Saturday Night Live?

I think you posted a picture of yourself sitting on Saturday Night Live stage like years before saying it was like a dream for you.

Was that a dream for you?

Just to see it.

Yeah.

Just to see it.

Yeah.

Okay.

Then you go on Saturday Night Live

with Ted Lasso.

like we were talking about abby and i were talking about how possibly did they put them together like if i were them i would have broken up the goodness like to have both of you be together on saturday night you're biased about i think both me and jason no it was so it was the best episode of satur night live ever and it was so funny too i mean it was really good funny and gorgeous and your performance was so ridiculous and just

my kids were like, holy shit.

Like it was just like transcendent what you did.

It goes back to what we were talking about before with like queerness being totally everywhere now and accepted.

But this is not, you're, you have walked a very long road to get to this moment where pride flags are everywhere and old navy is celebrating,

right?

I mean,

talk to us just for a little, just catch up the youngins

about what it was actually like for a queer rock star in a industry that was not where we are right now for a long while.

Because it looked, it's looking easy right now.

Do you know what I mean?

Like everyone's like, of course she's a rock star, but like you've been working your ass off

for so long with this crew of what you call the island of misfits.

who's been following you everywhere, who you've been dependent on and they've been dependent on you.

And then it's just yesterday that the world was like, okay,

come on.

Right.

Yeah.

So tell us about that and tell us about your, your crew that follows you and what that's like.

Well,

I mean, my sort of like gender identity has always been in flux and fluid.

It changes, you know, and it might change again.

And

I make a lot of allowances for myself around that.

I like it.

I think it's one of the funnest parts of being queer.

And so there have been times in my,

you know, career where I haven't been like identifiably queer, but have been out for, you know, most of my life since I was a teenager.

And there have been all kinds of little, you know,

micro-rejections and surprises and things along the way.

But one thing I've, I've noticed

recently is that the zeitgeist has sort of finally started to, and I don't mean this as a concession.

I don't want anybody to think that we're, we're done

but that they finally started to embrace androgyny and the awkwardness of the queer experience

as maybe cool.

Yeah.

And having that part of it be okay, that's a big change for me, you know, because there is a time when that was just a total non-starter.

I mean, it just meant total exclusion from pop culture.

And

worse than exclusion, you know,

you're fair game to be parodied.

It's the funniest thing in the world to make fun of the indigo girls or Katie Lang.

Like she could, they couldn't be cool,

you know?

And that's not that way now.

Like maybe it's very, very cool

to be,

you know.

What do you think about

my brain explodes every time I try to think about gender?

I'm losing my mind about gender actually, which is cool for me because that's like when I start to try to figure out things is when it all falls apart and I feel like I know nothing.

I'm usually on the cusp of something, but

I don't understand gender.

Like, I can't find gender inside of me anywhere.

Like, I can find gender outside of me.

Like, gender is something that's on me.

It's not in me.

Yeah.

Like, if I, if somebody said, if I said, I am a girl, and somebody said to me, how do you know?

I would have no fucking idea.

I would be like, well, I have on rings and I have highlights and I'm I have a sports

bra on and I'm in these clothes, but there's nothing inside of me that says,

like, so when you say you've gone, you're, you leave allowances for gender in the future, you

do you feel in your insides

I'm a woman?

Or do you feel in your insides, I'm a man?

Or do you, because I actually feel on my insides that I don't have a gender.

Huh.

I just am act, I am acting out something that I was told when I was little, that this is what you are.

And I'm, I can crush it.

Yeah.

Like I can do all the things that make me look like that thing.

To me, it feels like calibration.

It's like when your insides match your outsides, when you make a fee, when you make something happen and it lines up and you're like, that's it.

That's me right now.

That's who I am.

At this phase of my life, that's how I feel.

And it could be flipping your hair from one side to the other.

It could be just something's missing about me and I don't feel great.

And it's the mascara.

Oh, there it is.

There, there I am.

Or, or you take the mascara off and you're like, there I am.

And it's just about like, for me, it's always been about allowing myself to just calibrate to where I'm like, oh, there it is.

I'm comfortable.

The last time I felt,

oh my God, Catherine, I punished this for Catherine for this for days.

The last time I felt like

uncomfortable.

in my skin as an adult would have been

shooting my video for right on time.

Oh, was it all the glitter and stuff?

I think it was the way the clothes fit me.

It just felt like I was out of sync with myself.

And it was a terrible feeling.

It was like two strings on a guitar being out of tune and vibrating incessantly instead of calibrating.

And so the whole day I was just like moody.

I was like snapping at Kath and just like not eating any food when everybody else was eating food and sulking off to these trees.

And I felt like a seven-year-old little girl again, rubbing dirt onto my dress so that I wouldn't have to wear it to the family reunion, you know?

That's Abby.

That's how Abby always felt.

But that's so interesting.

But I felt that way going the other direction too.

Really?

Yeah.

So you've had times when you dressed completely masculine and then you felt like that was not you either.

You felt uncomfortable?

No.

And, you know, Kath can attest to that, particularly around, you know,

heteronormative couples that need us to fit, Catherine and I to fit that paradigm.

It makes sense to them.

But which one is dad me?

Which one is the man?

That's the whole fucking point of this whole fucking thing.

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So, to give me an example of when you went calibrated the other way.

Oh, well, like I just said, like when, you know, a really well-meaning and lovely, straight couple feels the need to dad maybe.

Oh, dad you right.

You know, oh, God.

Oh.

Yeah.

Or that ease like in conversation, the one that we talked about earlier that, you know, Abby and I can both enjoy is just a little too presumptive.

Yes.

Abby will note that sometimes it's like the man that she's talking to forgets she's actually a woman and takes off his mask and says some shit about women.

And she's like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Don't forget who you guys are.

Well, you guys spent a lot of time in Florida.

Yeah, that's true.

We did.

It's true.

We did.

Bless Florida.

So what I do wonder, though, when you say, That day that you were shooting that video, how uncomfortable you were,

and you felt like out of your skin and you had to sulk away and you didn't eat the food like that's actually how i felt for like 25 years really

i think that there's something about like being like a really femme woman yeah or presenting that way that makes you feel like you're always in a costume

i mean think about like i had six six inch heels on all the time and like tight clothes and like

it just always felt like that See, there have been times I've really liked that.

And it's just, it's calibrates.

If my insides that day match my outsides,

I'm okay.

I can be okay.

And sometimes it's just, I hate how unpredictable it is.

It's just a day in and day out thing.

Actually, really, it's more like a year in and year out thing, you know, for I just have allowed myself to go through a lot of queer phases just because, you know, you know, I really feel for people that

come out later in life.

I think there are some things that maybe you might have had easier.

For sure.

But it's like chickenpox.

Maybe it's better to get it over with when you're younger.

That's instead of born this way, we're going with queerness.

It's like chickenpox.

Okay, that's our new one.

We'll have a chickenpox party.

We'll have like a queer person party and just hope that the contagion spreads and society.

Yeah, herd immunity.

Yeah.

Queerness.

Okay.

Do you think, though, that what you're talking about with this calibration kind of leads to the spectrum idea?

So if you're matching your outsides wherever you feel like you are on the spectrum, then you're good.

For me personally.

For you personally.

So that's kind of how I feel about sexuality.

So it's like born, gender doesn't work for born this way, for you, right?

You would never have, I'm born this way, like woman or man.

You feel like it's an ever-changing energy that you just have to match your outsides to your insides at the moment.

For me personally.

For you.

Yes.

So that's how for me personally, I feel about sexuality.

Cool.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Like I could never,

I was not born gay or straight, I don't think.

Yeah.

But it's something that I have to keep matching my insides to my outsides.

But you're interesting

because there is something about you that the compass pointed a different direction the whole time.

The compass was, there is a compass in there, right?

I don't know.

I think my compass was that I don't think I was doing what you were doing so early.

Yeah.

Like you were, well, okay, you know, there's this bell hooks quote that says, queer, not, Chase and I both sent this to each other at the same time, the day Bell Hooks died.

Mystical.

Queer, not as being about who you're having sex with, that can be a dimension of it, but queer as being about the self that is at odds with everything around it and has to invent and create and find a place to speak and to thrive and to live.

Hmm.

Like your faith is queer, your family is queer, your gender is queer.

Your art is queer, like because you've been trying to find

a calibration from your outsides to your insides that is different from what the world has told you.

Yeah.

It makes things really precious.

Yeah.

Because

so much about the way that we live culturally is heteronormative, that you're rejected by so many basic tenets of so many institutions that you don't, you can't.

you know, repel yourself to the outside of all of them, or you're just in outer space.

You're just in nowhere.

So you have to find places through these institutions.

You know, you can't reject them like they can reject you.

And it makes people special.

And that's why, like, when I know I'm not supposed to say this, but when I say I like queer people better than straight people,

I mean, I don't totally mean that, but I kind of mean that because I just mean right off the bat, I have a built-in respect for you because I know what it took for you to be yourself in this world.

Like, that was a battle and a struggle that you fought and are still standing.

So, it's like in a, it's like two points already for you,

right?

Yeah, exactly.

And, and you're going to be fun.

Yeah.

And you're going to create stuff that's really great.

You know, I really, I'm, I walked out of Bohemian Rhapsody with my chest like puffed out.

And I was like,

queer people brought everything great that there is about American music.

You know,

without queer people and black people, we are fucked.

Like completely.

There's nothing nothing fun about us.

You know, but I don't know.

I still find you a bit of an anomaly, like really interesting, you know, because I just,

even if you weren't like married and with Abby, I would be like, I wonder when Glennon's going to come out of the closet.

Really?

Yeah.

That is such an honor.

I'm so sorry.

You can cut that out if you need to.

No, I want to know more.

Tell me, do you know I read an Amazon review of my, of Love Warrior that said, when the fuck is this woman just gonna come out yeah and I was like oh my god I have to read reviews so that I can know who I am yeah these people knew before I did why

let me think about it

I just sense it

you know what I mean it's not it's not just an openness it's just something about your energy

you know to me you feel queer you might see yourself in one place on the spectrum now or another place in the spectrum a year from now or a year ago.

But, you know, to me, if I had met you and you'd still been married or you were single, I would think, man, I wonder if Glenn is in the closet or if she's ever, you know, thought about going on a date with a woman.

Absolutely amazing.

Yeah, I wish I could explain why.

It's just like

a kind of animal that sees a kind of animal and goes, yeah, I get that.

It's the namasuke?

The namas gay.

It's the it's our it's why the rei employee approaches you for the carabiner.

If they know you want the carabiner, you just don't know you want the carabiner all the, you know, all the time.

For fuck's sake,

you want to camp.

You actually don't know this, but you want to camp with me and Catherine.

And I know Abby does.

All right.

Well, I trust you, I guess.

I turned out to be queer, so I guess I could turn out to be a camper.

With that, I love you.

I love your family.

I love everything that you're doing in the world.

I'm just so grateful that you guys, well, Catherine's in here too, that you all are our friends.

All right, y'all, come back on Thursday because we're going to have a double date with you guys.

Yes.

Brandy.

All right.

Don't forget this week, we can do hard things.

Bye.

Oh, I love it.

It was wonderful.

I mean, could it be a better interview when you circle back around to REI and

Navasuka?

It was expert on your part.

I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle.

I walked through fire.

I came out the other side.

I chased desire.

I made sure I got what's mine.

And I continue to believe

that I'm the one for me.

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line.

Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks on map.

A final destination

lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to belong.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a heart pain.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem, problem.

Sometimes things fall apart.

And I continue

to believe

the best

people are free.

And it took some time,

but I'm finally fine.

Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks on that.

A final destination

we lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home

and through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do hard pain.

We're adventures and heartbreaks on that.

We might get lost, but we're okay.

That we've stopped asking directions

in some places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home

and through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do hard things.

Yeah, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we

can do hard

things.

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