73. Pet Love: Are Animals the Closest We Come to Unconditional Love?

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Hello to our favorite people in all the world.

You.

Hattie just burped.

Okay, our dogs are here, so bear with us a little bit.

There is a reason for that.

There is a reason that our dogs are crawling on our lap right now.

Here's what we're talking about today.

As many of you may have noticed,

sister, hi, sissy.

Hi.

Has been on a mission.

I feel like since we started this podcast, I think sister has been on a serious spiritual mission since this podcast began.

Yeah.

Because

we're talking about everything.

Yeah.

We have forced her

to talk about her life.

Yep, to diagnose and treat our own selves.

Yeah, yeah.

And it is a whole thing when you have to start digging in.

And anyway, sister decided along the way that she would like to have more life in her life, right?

This is a question: where is the life in our lives?

Sister decided that she might, even her achieving

type A alpha self, would also like to have some delight and joy yeah right

am i saying that correctly well i mean no i'm not

i think it's just um

it's less like aspirational and more just desperation more just like it's not working for me so what am am i desperate enough to consider alternatives because

Yes, because

I might have reached the bottom of where this particular life is going to take me.

Okay.

So, you know, on this podcast, that's fair.

We are less inspirational and aspirational and more desperational.

Desperation.

Hashtag desperation.

Hashtag, we are less committed to wellness and more committed to just less dying slowly inside.

Yeah, it's less.

Yeah.

Okay.

Just

but you felt open, open to possible avenues of more delight.

Would you say that?

You felt your little Grinch heart

preparing to expand three sizes?

Yeah, I thought, you know, clearly the calculations that I've made heretofore have only gotten me heretofore.

So I am open to the idea that maybe

out of an abundance of data suggesting, there might be another way.

Okay.

Okay, right.

Okay.

So at that point, here we are going along on our lives.

And then your whole family comes to our family in California for the holidays for two weeks, right?

And what I would say about your children when they arrive.

What would you say about my children?

Well, one thing that I would say about my unbelievably fantastic niece and nephew are that when they see our dogs.

Yeah.

All they do is lose their little damn minds for two weeks.

Hattie, who is our little golden doodle type dog, is thrilled by this.

She has people to play with her.

It's just so happy.

Honey, our French bulldog,

well, she feels otherwise.

Well, maybe.

I mean, I think that.

She's more just like reigning queen.

Like she's like, I grace you with my presence.

She's also smaller than Hattie, so you can pick Honey up.

Right.

And so this is where Alice and Bobby, they'll just, they'll, they'll, they'll take her, they'll maneuver her.

They play with her as if she's the not live dog, more like she's a doll.

Right.

And then, so we watch, so honey's on depression watch when they're here.

She's getting poked and prodded for a couple of weeks.

She loves it, though.

But just so everyone understands the context, like my kids are so obsessed with your animals that

we bought Alice a special locket a couple of years ago.

And I told her she could pick any member of the family, any family picture she wanted to put in there, anything that made her the happiest.

And she unequivocally and very quickly said,

Oh, I will have a picture of honey.

Yes.

So the bulldog.

So, and anything in life that brought her joy and made her feel connected and loved.

And she picked your dog.

So now she has a locket with your dog in it.

Amazing.

And so when you were here, we ended up talking a lot about the possibility of one day you all getting a dog.

And

you've always felt open, well, you felt a teeny bit open to it because John's, your husband has been raised, was raised with German shepherds and dogs.

But I think you had this real feeling that

you're still in the chaos of young children.

Like

the chaos, the freaking dripping with children, no minutes, no bodily autonomy, no sanity moments.

Tell us how you felt about the idea of adding a dog to your family.

Well, it felt like, you know, someone who's

doggy paddling just to stay afloat, about to drown, and then say you handed them a dog.

And that's how it felt.

It felt like, oh, good.

So I'm barely making it.

Why don't you put a dog on top of my, you know, not so buoyant body?

But

that's how I felt.

but i i did feel resigned to it because it was probably our third date the first time that i had met um john's mom and

she

the first thing

she said to me was well amanda i hope you know that if uh you married john you're gonna have to have a dog like it was like out of the gate so why

oh it was meant in like just love of course

with that though i'm just saying like that that's like a, yeah, that's like a non-negotiable.

Yeah, it has felt like that.

So I was kind of resigned to it.

But if you would ever have told me that I would, you know, intentionally elect

to cohabitate with an animal, except under like resigned duress,

I would tell you, you have me confused

with someone who is a little easy breezy.

So it didn't feel so much like an election.

It just kind of felt like, well, that has to happen.

And

what happened was

I kept telling my kids since they were two, oh, eventually in a few years, in a few years, when you're old enough.

And at one point, maybe when they were quite young, I said, apparently to Bobby, when you're 10, because it felt millions of miles away.

Exactly.

But then unfortunately, what happened was he is nine and a half right now.

And he reminded me of that.

So don't

note to listeners who have young children.

You never put a number

on a promise.

Yes.

You keep it ambiguous.

You are not going in five minutes.

You're not going to be there in five minutes.

You're not going to get a dog when they're 10.

You're not, you, you're going to do it sometime.

Right.

Maybe.

Sometime.

Maybe.

Sometimes.

Maybe.

We'll see.

We'll see.

We'll see.

Hell to the no.

Right.

Okay.

But, but I

feel this like little creaking of the dog door open because I can see a little bit with you.

When I see a little, you're usually a yes or a hell no.

So when I see any wavering,

I feel, oh,

there's hope.

There's hope.

Hell hath no fury like Glennon Doyle, whom which has now found a little slice of a door ajar.

Yeah, there was no, there was no database.

Y'all, she pulled out a computer, was doing research

for shelters for baby details.

Which we talked about during the Christmas holiday during the holidays so yes i believe the door was a tiny bit ajar and i'm like okay it's happening because if not now when it's not me who right so it's out there it's out there it's coming so it's time it's not like they're going to be seniors in high school we're going to be like well now you get a dog right so

so we we started actually talking about it and then

The week we got home from the holidays, my sweet neighbor, who's amazing, who

she found me my kids therapist.

She found me their like educational diagnostic people.

She found me my therapist.

She just like the,

she giveth unto me good things.

She brings a lot to the table.

God, I love friends like that.

You just know you can call them and they're going to know everything.

And they just like with a light hand, but just, you know, I'm struggling with this.

Okay, I got your person and I'm going to help you out.

And so she texts me out of the blue.

She knows nothing about the context.

And she says, I have the perfect dog for your family.

So this is the moment where you think, if you're waiting for a sign, here's a sign.

Okay.

And of course, because what I do in those situations where I'm given signs is I say, look, an eagle.

And I try to run in the other direction.

I know you called me and you're like, my friend said, I have the perfect dog for you.

What do you think?

I'm like, what do you mean?

What do I think?

What are you waiting for?

The dog to actually arrive in your bed with a bow around it?

Like, yes, this is the sign.

So I ignored that text from her.

And then like a week later, she said, are you just going to ignore the text where I said I have the perfect dog for you?

And so I said, okay, tell me about the dog.

So she fosters and love, love, and so many shout outs to all of the doggy foster people in the world.

I mean, it's such a beautiful gift to to protect these little ones after they're, you know, going through these big transitions.

So so she is fostering this dog she loves this dog she thinks he's perfect for our family we say okay can we meet the dog we meet the dog we start spending a lot of time with the dog it's like a real relationship

it is

it is you're dating so cute and i become much to my surprise

utterly obsessed with the dog.

I love him.

I love him so much.

We go through this this whole process where we try to adopt him i am sweating so much i am i have to write a letter to the you have to have a home study adoption a home study they come to my house i make my kids i'm like be normal don't no one be weird everyone act the way loving normal people would act i'm i'm so nervous and

We do the whole thing and they ask us lots of questions.

They referrals.

They call.

yeah they have to like call for character references who did you use

character references did you have neighbors or like because no one called me nobody called us yeah yeah

so

i

yeah a friend and a neighbor i've used and then

they

said yes and now

who do you have now

we have seamus

the golden retriever.

He is one year and seven months old.

He is so precious.

He had an original owner that could not care for him anymore.

And so then he went to my neighbor's house and then he came here and he is

amazing.

I love him.

And so

we have both seen flashes of delight in you since this little dog came.

Can you tell us?

Because actually,

when you, because I think we wait until our lives are under control to add absurd, delightful things.

We think joy, absurdity, delight,

unproductive,

just nonsense

is for when everything else is under control.

So we have that feeling where we're like, I'm treading water.

I can't add a dog.

But it didn't end up feeling like somebody put a dog in your hands while you were trying to not to drown what does it feel more like

i mean it feels more like

a reason to go play in the pool oh yeah you know it just feels it feels this is it reminds me of the friendship episode when it's like who the hell has time

for

friends when you don't even have time for the bazillion things in your life and it's all too much

and it's like oh wait no that's exactly why we need friendship because somehow when you

add

lovely, soul-affirming things to your life, it makes the rest of it less heavy.

Yeah.

Yes.

So, and I just feel like,

I don't know.

It's so interesting.

I had therapy yesterday and my therapist was talking about how

we as people, it's like we each have these essential selves, but then we have all this armor we put around us.

And then the people in our lives, they have their essential selves, but then they have all the armor.

So when we're bumping into those people, it's just armor bumping into armor.

Like we're never like getting to the essential.

And I realized, I'm sure there was a bigger lesson for me in my life for it, but I just kept thinking about Seamus.

And I'm like, that's it.

That's what's so matter.

He is just his essential being all the time.

He's just what he is, just going

about

being

exactly who he is at all times and it's silly and nonsensical but but there's no armor around any of it and that is disarming yes it puts you in a different place and i think there's certain people like this in our lives but very very rare like abby i actually think you are

of all the people i know the most

regularly essentially yourself like i think that's what is so magnetic about you.

Like, that's why you're irresistible to anyone around you is because you are your essential being all

a vast majority of the time.

And I think it's just, there's, I think animals and the very rare people like that that we interact with, it's just so magnetic.

Because maybe that's why I connect so well with dogs.

Maybe.

I don't know.

I was just joking.

I think that like that's such a beautiful point, Cissy, because, you know, dogs to me have, or pets, have this unique ability to interrupt what's going on in your life.

And both good and bad, right?

Like, there's some times where I'm pissed that honey, like, peed on the wood, the floor.

She does pee a lot.

But like, at the end of the day, the interruption is almost always like really welcomed.

Yeah, because whatever else you were worrying about or doing was kind of bullshit.

And like, they don't talk to you.

So you have to actually create this dialogue of like what they're thinking, what you think their experience is.

That's what I do.

I'm like, oh, she's cold.

All we do is talk about what they're thinking.

And for sure, they're not thinking any of the things.

She's feeling this.

Yeah.

Look at her.

She's so mad at us that we left.

Look at her.

She's so

sad.

Look at her.

Oh my God.

Howdy just looked at us in this really funny, sad way.

The projection of emotions on the dogs.

It's hilarious.

John walked in the other day.

That was on the floor.

I'm so worried about, you know, Seamus's

emotional stability.

Yes.

And it's because he got left after a year and a half of his life.

So I'm on the floor saying,

we're never going to leave you.

You have a home here forever.

You can just lay down that burden of worry about.

And John walks in and he's like,

Yeah, you've never had dogs before.

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Remember when Craig and I got Theo from the shelter?

Theo now lives right with Craig down the street, also our dog.

They, I went, we went and found Theo, and Theo we knew, belonged to us.

But then we had to leave because they had to do all the checks.

And then they told me,

we need another day because we're going to clean him all up.

Do you remember this?

Oh, yes.

You were so upset.

And I was so upset.

Don't you clean him first?

I don't want him to learn that he has to be like fancy and clean before his family takes him.

We will take him dirty.

Thank you.

That's right.

And then we went and got him and we were like, ew.

Why did you guys clean him?

And now with honey and hattie, I just feel strongly that both of these dogs

are the only people who truly understand me.

People, by the way.

And also,

they have taught me, they teach me everything about unconditional love.

Oh, yeah.

Because in different ways.

All right.

Hattie,

the golden doodle thing,

amazing.

She's, I'm staring at at her right now.

She teaches me about unconditional love because she loves everyone unconditionally.

It doesn't matter if you've been gone for one second or a week.

It doesn't matter if you're, she just is in

so much love, so much affection.

Just her energy is, I love you, I love you, I love you.

And so I learn how to

be unconditionally loved from her.

And with honey, the bulldog,

I learn how to to love something unconditionally who doesn't give a crap about me.

It's like, it's a gift of unrequited love.

It is.

It's like,

she really only loves me because

I'm warm.

It's conditioned.

The conditions are,

are you a warm body?

Like, like temperature-wise.

Exactly.

It's not just

like, do you have sweatpants on that are soft and cozy?

What are you bringing to the table, Doyle?

That's it.

Or are you, do you have food for me?

Do you feed me?

Other than that, she's a cat.

So I have to learn how to love her unconditionally, not based on how she treats me.

So it's like absolute opposites, but they're both teaching me.

And the one thing that I'll say that

I appreciate so much about dogs is that in this world where it feels like I'm always earning my worthiness based on like how much I do, how busy I am, what I can give you,

whatever, how we all feel, what I'm bringing to the table, what I'm,

what I've done for you lately, like that, that feeling of I always have to be producing to feel like I have, you know, earned my right to exist on the earth.

The dogs are the only beings that I feel love me more the less I do.

Oh, yeah.

Well, because you're sitting on the couch.

Yes.

Whenever you're on the couch, they're right there.

Their best day for me, their heaven.

They're like, you're the best dog mom in the entire world

would be if I sort of woke up, not really, didn't shower, sat back on the couch, didn't move all day,

and then went to bed again.

Yeah.

That would be their

this is the best person in the universe.

And there's something that is so healing about this.

Like, they are a walking invitation,

a walking reminder to play and to rest.

And to get fresh air.

Right, because they're going, right, because your couch story assumes that Abby is taking them out for a walk at some point.

But it's true.

And I do, I get it.

It's because

I feel like, as a person who lives by a spreadsheet and where it's hard to

stop or slow down, I feel

like

what Seamus is proving is that

nonsensical things

are important.

Like when you actually do the spreadsheet, when you're like, okay, their food and care costs many, many dollars.

Low, so many dollars.

They require a commitment of a lot of time and structure and planning.

And then on like the deposits column.

Oh, God.

There's like nothing quantifiable.

Nothing makes sense about the spreadsheet, but just their being and they're just kind of the delight that they offer is makes it just

a resounding yes, even though the spreadsheet says no.

So my religion of the spreadsheet and their being logical, quantifiable things, it kind of ruins my religion because I'm like, this thing doesn't make any damn sense, but yet I need it very much.

Dogs will destroy your capitalistic productivity religion.

I think that like what is so valuable to me about a dog is that they constantly are

this mirror of like, oh, just be here.

Right.

Like they're not living in their past.

They're not living in their future.

They're just like right here right now all the time.

And like, yes, sometimes it's annoying when they like want something right now, but at the end of the day, it's like such a good for me.

They put the be in the being, like they do.

They're just like right here, right now, all the time.

And that is when I'm at my happiest.

And then cats.

Oh, don't get me started.

Listen.

So, Abby does not appreciate a cat.

I'm allergic.

I'm allergic to cats.

She just says she is.

So we definitely can't get one.

No, I'm very allergic to cats.

Okay.

Well, the catander makes me sneeze.

Are you physically or spiritually allergic?

Physically.

Okay.

So I appreciate a cat.

Okay.

And I think it's it's because in in life abby's more of a dog but cats they are badass with their boundaries they are not trying to please anybody they right we had cats growing up they're always judging they're always looking exactly and judging me and all i want to do is be like what

cats are the lovies They're the lovies of the animals.

What animals do.

Do better, people.

Yes.

Yes.

And I appreciate that.

So they're not trying to please, but they're also cozy.

We, we grew up with cat after cat after cat.

Do you remember when gummy gumdrop, I got to name that cat.

So she had a litter of kittens in my closet

and

something

happened.

Gumdrop.

decided not to feed one of them.

It was like this little runty runt and gumdrop was like over it.

I now understand gumdrop's resistance and protest.

I mean, it's hard not to feel that way about your second.

It was like her sixth.

Exactly.

She's like, oh, hell no.

Yes.

Five is my limit.

Yes.

And so there was this one kitten that was not thriving.

And do you, I think you and me or me and a friend?

No, it was just, it was just you and you had a friend over that night that they were born, but you made it your life's mission to bring this little kitty along and she wouldn't have lived no and with you just eyedropper you had an eyedropper of milk and you fed that thing every single day and you kept and remember it wouldn't grow it wouldn't it was like perfect it was like kitten size for its whole life and so it was perfect because it was but it was fat crazy oh yeah she lost so she lost some brain action i think in the beginning she was amazing but don't you remember how wild she was she would attack everybody but me.

Dad couldn't feed her because she'd just go crazy and attack her.

It's like a foreshadowing for your life.

Yeah, some kind of metaphor.

And we named her Miracle.

Oh, sweet Miracle.

I loved Miracle.

I loved Miracle.

But it's true, Abby, what you were saying, because I feel like there's so many points where theoretically throughout our day in our lives, we'd be appreciate little moments.

We could be going around being like, oh, look at that smile.

Oh, look at that.

We could see anything as beautiful and special.

But this having a

vehicle of like a furry, precious, lovely thing kind of like

it forces you

your attention into the moments with that you would otherwise that's right and it gives everybody in the family this i feel like in our family the dogs are also like a pressure release valve you're just staring at each other all day and you're like we want to talk about real stuff We're talking about stuff, looking at each other, judging each other, trying to figure each other out.

Like, how are you feeling, kids?

And also, like, what's wrong with you?

What's wrong with that?

And then the dog comes and everybody gets to shift literally their gaze to each other.

Yeah, to the dog.

And it's just this release valve of intensity to joy.

Yeah.

Or stress.

I mean, honestly, our dogs are always peeing, always going in the trash.

I mean, it's also, it's not all roses.

No, it's not all roses, but it's worth it.

Totally.

Even the peeing and the trash eating and the barking with Hattie, it's worth it.

Like the amount of times that we look at each other and the dogs are on our bed, are we?

In our bed, we have no boundaries.

And we're like, I love them so, like, and our, our teeth are

like, I love them so much.

What is that?

What the fuck?

Why do we want to eat them?

That's

so weird.

We have a beast in our bed.

We have A beast in our bed.

Yeah.

And we're happy to be.

It's an animal.

And you should know that we have trained them to sleep with their heads on the pillow between us.

They sleep like human beings.

It's a row of

Doyle Wombok.

Like it's Abby, then Hattie, then Honey, then me.

And then during the night,

I move Honey over to the other side of Abby because she snores so loud.

And now we have a new animal.

Well, here is where

things get a little wild.

You're even surprising yourself.

The absurdity of dogs for us.

Gate pets.

They're gateways.

Is there a gateway?

And I've always been anti, I've always been pro-dog, anti-everything else.

Yes.

Especially rodents, especially, especially snakes and rodents.

Okay.

Those, and I.

I send all of the rodents and snakes love,

but they're just, it's just not for me.

It's just not my jam.

Right.

Well, Tish, she comes to us recently and she said, you know what?

You know what my life is missing?

My life is missing a hamster.

And she knows us as parents very well.

And so she is, you know, informing and educating the three of us.

And she's also telling us why she needs it.

Tish is the one who, like, six years after the divorce will still explain that perhaps she forgot her book report because of the trauma of a broken family.

She knows.

So she told us that she was feeling like lonely and so she needed a hamster.

She played all of our buttons.

She approaches us and she has what feels like a little bit like of a report, like a school report.

Like here is how long the hamster lives

and also benefits.

She fibbed on that.

She said only one year.

And this one lives too.

We get to the freaking,

we decide, okay, we're going to do this.

No, no, no.

First you said absolutely nothing.

Of course.

And then four days later, we're at the pet store.

No, we say absolutely, you can do this at Craig's house.

Yeah, that's right.

Craig and I are texting back and forth, like negotiating the crap out of this.

Not it.

Not it.

Exactly.

And so we've decided as a family that hamster is going to live at Craig's house.

Well,

I don't know how this happens.

I don't know either.

Tish decides that she needs the hamster now and the hamster is now having to live in our house.

Because of the divorce problem.

Because of the divorce.

So we go to the freaking store.

We get this hamster.

Biscuit, the hamster.

We get all the things.

The whole damn family goes.

And now the hamster is living at our house.

And how do you feel about the hamster, babe?

Okay, so here's the deal with

biscuit, new rodent.

I call her Beatrix.

We call her Beatrix.

I freaking love this thing.

When Tish goes and is at Craig's house,

I sit and I watch her.

This thing is a knock.

Did you know?

I didn't know hamsters were nocturnal.

Like, I actually don't know what the point of her is because somebody's up during the night and not at all during the day.

So there's like one hour between

by the time we go to, we're like in bed that she might nine to ten, nine to ten.

Nine to ten p.m.

that I just sit there and I'm watching her and Tish does bath bonding time.

So Tish and the hamster.

So what I'm trying to, what we're trying to tell you, Pods Blood.

Watch out for the dogs.

From 9 to 10.

First of all, we used to go to bed at 9.

Okay.

Now, from 9 to 10, I am in my bed reading.

And if you need to find Abby, you have to go to Tish's room, even when Tish is not here, even when she's at Craig's.

Abby is sitting cross-legged in front.

of a cage that's on the floor.

I love that thing.

In the dark.

I just want it to come out.

And she's staring, waiting for biscuit to peek her little biscuit head out.

Unless, of course,

Tish is home.

When Tish is home, Abby stares with Tish from 9, 9.30.

And then Tish brings the hamster into the only bathtub that is a, that exists in our home, which is in my bathroom.

And Tish and the hamster sit in our bathtub.

for half an hour.

What are they even doing?

There's just bath bed.

It's called the bathtime bonding.

But like, what's so fun?

Is it flow?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, water, no water.

There's no water on it.

It's just an enclosed space.

So, so as the hamster doesn't, like, crawl into the crevice of a room and go away forever.

So this is a safe, a safe place.

But I do think

it's a perfect example of what pets do to a family because

my one sacred safe space, right?

When I do, when I get into the bathtub now, there's hamster shit in it.

Literally.

No, tish cleans it up no she cleans it up a and b here's what i'll say about this little hamster and i think the real reason why i love it it's because

this child worked really hard to convince us she did and i love this child yes you do so much i love our children so much that when she comes into our room and talks about the love that she has for this biscuit, it's like, it's a grand animal.

She's our grand hamster.

She's our grand hamster.

And I

love this thing as if it's my own because it kind of is.

And because we've watched her, I mean, Tish, you know how she is.

She would not, she came into our room each night and talked about how she's fostering trust between her and the hamster.

She would never pick her up because she, she needed to earn the hamster coming to her.

It was very,

she was trying to

set out the hamster for who the hamster was.

Don't you go in that room?

She said, Yeah, so don't you go in that room?

I'm like, gosh,

don't you go in that room, Abby?

I'm like, all right, well,

and then, of course, I got to get in there just to see.

Yeah, you do sneak in.

Well, because I think that all animals are going to love me the most.

You do.

You do.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I understand it's unhealthy.

It's so good.

It's so good.

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All right, let's, we have some

questions from the Pod Squad about their pet.

Great.

Let's hear some pet cues from the Pod Squatters.

Hi, my name is Leah.

I'm calling in because I'm really excited about something.

My dog, Stella, and I are going to go to our first group class to work on some issues that she has.

We've been doing a training program for a while now and we've done some private lessons but this is our first group class and I'm really scared and excited about it.

I just love Stella so much.

She's such a sweet dog but she just has a lot of issues whenever we go outside.

Stella just feels all of the things.

She is so affectionate and loving, but she gets so scared and anxious when we go outside.

But we're working through it because I want her to be able to go out into the world with me and I just wanted to call and tell you about that because she's on my island and I love her a lot I'd love to hear more about your guys' relationship with honey and Hattie and any other pets that you've had thanks bye

Leah is Stella's emotional support human and you know what she You know who Stella reminds me of?

Who?

My beautiful wife.

She just feels so much.

She's so lovely, but then she goes out into the world and she's so nervous and scared.

Yeah.

I'm glad that Stella's getting some group therapy.

I just wish she would still just be able to go to her private lesson.

I feel like it's so, I love that she said that she's on my island because we have received so many messages from people that are saying, you know, my animal is the closest thing to me and i think that that is beautiful and i feel like there's kind of a cultural

kind of like in the um friends episode where we talked about you know you get a divorce and everyone's like oh i'm so sorry but then you break up with your best friend and the world is like moving right along i just want to say out loud that there's so many people for whom their connection to their animals is their deepest, most profound.

The love story of their life.

The love story.

The love story of their life.

That's right.

It's a real thing.

And I feel like we kind of belittle it a little bit.

But there's honestly, when you look at

like the actual research, people should not be belittling it.

Dogs actually, and animals, pets that you love, they actually increase your oxytocin.

They make you less stressed out.

They increase the way that you socialize in the world.

That like people socialize more in the world who have animals that don't they handle stress better they have lower blood pressure i mean when's the last time a friendship did that for you i'm just saying you might want to check well it's like if we're basing our our all all over health and wellness on physicality then it's all those things you just said scientifically the animals make us make our lives better but also there's no spiritual tradition that at the heart of it doesn't say okay the way to the way is presence

yes that's it like that's it that's what everybody's saying in all of the in love and presence presence and love loving presence that's what every spiritual tradition tells us is the answer and dogs and animals that's what they're forcing us into that's right is loving presence it's that william martin quote do not ask your children to strive for extraordinary lives such striving may seem admirable but it is the way of foolishness help them instead to find the wonder and the marvel of an ordinary life.

Show them the joy of tasting tomatoes, apples, and pears.

Show them how to cry when pets and people die.

Show them the infinite pleasure in the touch of a hand and make the ordinary come alive for them.

The extraordinary will take care of itself.

Yeah.

Like that's what I feel like they do.

It's kind of like when you're doing meditation, bring your breath back, bring your breath back, bring your breath back.

It's like, that's what I feel like Seamus does for me.

You know, I'm so busy seeing the next thing, the next thing, the next thing.

And him being there is like,

bring your presence back to this moment because I'm licking your face.

Bring your presence back to this moment because I need you to pull on this rope.

Like it doesn't matter.

All these other things.

The meditation thing is so interesting because I was actually, this happens to me all the time.

I'm meditating

just recently, meditating upstairs and Hattie.

She's thinks she's a guard dog.

So she's sitting by the window and she's freaking out.

She's freaking out.

Okay.

so I'm trying to meditate and Hattie is looking out our window and freaking out because she thinks that the person who's walking by our house is attacking us.

So she's just distracting us from this beautiful meditation because she thinks she's under attack.

And

of course, you know, in meditation, Pemisha Jonah always says the obstacle in the path is the path.

So when my dog interrupts me because she's freaking out, because she doesn't think she's safe in my meditation, I try to think, okay, not like you're you're so annoying, you're messing up my meditation, but this is my meditation for the day.

How is Hattie interrupting me because she's scared my meditation?

And to me, the answer is: I'm saying to Hattie, Why are you freaking out?

You're totally safe.

We're in this beautiful moment.

I've got this.

And the God of whoever, all of our understanding, the universe is looking at me and saying, Why are you always freaking out?

We're in this beautiful moment.

You're safe.

You don't have to guard your house.

I've got this.

You're safe.

And why your God is saying to you, why do you, I send all of this into your life and you interpret every passerby as a potential threat, intruder and threat.

And you're always barking, Glennon.

You are always afraid.

So you're always barking when you could be just laying around in the sun in this house that is safe.

Wow.

I'll tell you what, my meditations meditations go quite different.

So good.

All right, let's hear from this next caller.

That was good.

Thank you, baby.

I was listening to your podcast last night as I was driving home from the 24-hour vet emergency for, you know, another crazy dog emergency.

And it got me home at four in the morning without crashing.

So it definitely kept me awake and entertained.

But my question for you is,

how do you deal with hard things with pets?

You know, we get gifted these incredible animals into our lives that become part of our family.

And I don't have kids, so I definitely have the fur babies.

And you just fall so deeply in love with them.

And you also know it's a short, short time.

And

so yeah, I guess I was just curious as to what your relationship is.

with pets and how you hold on to that connection, knowing that it's shorter than most human connections.

What do you do with the grief around all of that?

Like, what do you find helpful?

So anyway, I love you guys.

You're wonderful.

And please keep doing all the beautiful work that you're doing.

Thank you so much.

Bye.

I think Sissy's crying.

Are you crying over there?

I just don't.

I've never been through that.

She just got Seamus.

Yeah.

I mean, that's the question.

That's the question, right?

I'm, I'm thinking about the first experience that we had with animals and death was usually, I feel like most parents who are resisting

fur animals because they feel like they're treading too much water.

We start with fish.

That's what our family did.

We started with fish.

We were like, that's the reverse gateway

because, you know, I bought three years of non-dog time by having fish.

Right.

Exactly.

So it's like whole, it's a hold off.

It's a dam.

It's a, yeah.

So we bought fish.

We had three little beta fish that were in different little, what are they called?

Teeny aquariums.

They were in each of the kids' rooms.

This is when we were like real heavy, like Jesusy.

I am not kidding.

The fish's names were Jesus, Mary, and Joseph.

I did not name them.

Oh my gosh.

Are you kidding me?

No, I haven't even told you this whole thing.

So

Amma had Jesus.

Tish had Mary and Chase had Joseph.

Did Jesus just appear

from Mary without Joseph?

Was it two aquariums?

And then it's like, Mary unto her.

Jesus is given.

So weird, you guys.

And you had to move him?

Unexplainable.

And Mary the fish was like, dude, I swear to God, I did not have fish sex.

I did not have fish sexual

side-eyeing Mary for the first couple of days.

He was like, I was like,

Joseph the fish was like, I freaking knew it.

This is my favorite thing that has ever happened on our podcast.

Anyway, just happened.

So we've got Jesus Mary and Joseph was going fine for a little while.

And my friends had their kids over, and they were all running around upstairs in the kids' bedrooms, all the little ones.

And I hear screaming from upstairs.

And

Amma is little, her little voice is screaming,

Mom,

Jesus is

dead.

Jesus is dead.

Okay, over and over again.

So we run upstairs, and poor little Peyton, Amma's friend, has poured the whole fish food

into the aquarium.

And so Jesus has, indeed, gorged Jesus himself so much that Jesus is in fact dead and floating.

And for sure,

Amma's waiting for it to resurrect.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

His promise is real.

Yeah, for sure.

Amma's like, this story is not yet over.

right it's the friday exactly friday first the pain then the waiting then the rising right but in fact jesus the fish was not gonna rise and so this was the first

real conversation that we had to have as a family about religion about

yeah that was tricky but you know really just talking about What is the point?

I mean, I remember saying to Chase, like, what is the point?

They just die.

We love them and then they die.

And it was speaking to this larger point of like, what is the point of loving at all?

And I really remember the five of us just coming to the idea of we do not love because it lasts forever.

Because if we did that, we would all be fools.

We would all be wrong.

We would all be wasting our time because it will never, in fact, last forever.

But

we love because the process of loving something changes us.

Yes.

Because the process, the doing of it, the loving and being loved creates this

growth in us

that leaves us different and better and wholer and more beautiful when it ends,

after it ends.

Right.

So maybe that love doesn't even really ever end.

I still love the dog that I had from years and years ago.

Yeah, you're right.

It doesn't.

You're right.

It doesn't end.

The relationship doesn't fully end.

Everything we love will transform in some way or another over the lifespan, but it's so compressed with our little animals that,

again, with the presence, it's present in your head the whole time.

Yeah.

You know, you know.

Yes.

I think that

it's like.

It's like death in training.

And we get to practice, hopefully, throughout the whole of our life with these pets to start learning about death and understanding what the relationship we personally have with it so that we can prep for the death of our, you know, parents or, or our loved ones.

Like, I just think, yeah, it is.

I mean, what a, what, like, I don't know if there's a more beautiful lesson you can teach.

And it's just so interesting to me that for us, these dogs and this hamster

are going to help us and teach our kids.

Exactly, because it also, I don't know how to do it.

I certainly don't know what's right and wrong, but I know what feels tempting to me when

an animal is lost.

What's tempting to me is what's tempting to me with everything that my kids go through.

It's painful, which is,

it's okay, and look an eagle, and here's a new one, and don't feel any of it, and moving on.

You know, all of these things we do where we're replacing the animal really fast, or we're like, you know, distracting them, or we're telling them that it went to live on a farm somewhere or we're

lying and lying and lying so that they don't feel the loss of loss.

And for me, it's an opportunity to resist that and to trust that to show them ritual, right?

To like give a container to grief, to give a

vehicle to it.

Okay, yeah, now we sit sadly and we don't know.

We don't know.

We say we don't know.

We don't necessarily, if we don't believe it, make up a bunch of stories about what is happening.

We don't know.

And then we sit and we don't know together and we feel sad together.

And then we create some sort of ritual to help us move through our grief.

And I think that the same, you know, it is practiced for human loss, but it also is its own real loss.

That is a very real loss.

And I think, you know, I didn't.

grow up with dogs, but John was one of five kids.

And it's so interesting how when that family gets together, I feel like a lot of the portion of the conversation revolves.

They're all different ages.

They span this gap, but they have the glue.

It reminds me of Untamed Elmers.

It's like the glue that connects their experiences through these various times where they were different ages and different stages is what dog was at the center of their family during.

during any time period.

And they get together and they talk about those times with the dog.

And so, and this is, you know,

40 years later, you know, the dog we had then, then the dog we had then.

And silly, they actually tell stories all the time about it.

So I feel like it's a really

acknowledging the glue

that is the, these animals in our families and how that continuity

can

still be alive.

years later is really special.

And it's like the center.

Like we think of pets as like the app, I'm thinking of a a wheel a wheel right now when you're talking and i'm thinking of how we think of pets as like you know they're on the outside with us but maybe the pet is the center the dog is the center because it's like everybody gets to have their own separate relationship with the dog too and every kid gets kind of what they need you know the a kid who needs to play and be engaged you know a kid i remember the cats like

a sensitive kid who like feels so much at school and can't connect with people at school, but then comes home to their safe place with the dog.

It's like the dog turns out kind of to be the center of the wheel because it's the only part of the wheel that is consistently its essential nature.

You know, when I get with my,

you know, son, I love him so much, but I bring so much fear and anxiety about his future and what's going on here and what's going on there that there is inevitably some of my armor pushing his armor at all times, as sad as it makes me feel.

Like, but but with the same with my husband, but the dog is the only one in the family who is

strictly as essential nature.

So when that's the case, people can come and get what they need and have this genuine connection.

Yeah.

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All right, let's hear from Kelsey.

Hi, guys.

My name is Kelsey.

I am a nurse, and my first year, I worked in a pediatric ICU that was emotionally traumatizing, physically traumatizing.

and threatened the eating disorder recovery I'd worked so hard to maintain.

And it took everything in me to quit that job.

It was like the first time I did something despite knowing that everybody

would look at me differently and possibly think I failed.

So that is the best decision I think I've made in a very long time.

I love my job now.

I'm getting my master's in psychiatric nursing and I'll be a psych MP in a couple of years.

But I just wanted to ask you guys, do you have pets?

And if you do,

have they like changed your mental health at all?

I just adopted kittens and it's been the most mentally well I've been in a long time.

Love you guys.

We love you too, Kelsey.

First of all, this is such an example of some the bravest thing.

The bravest thing is sometimes doing the thing that everyone else will think

was weak,

was wimpy.

that is some brave stuff kelsey and and and then you can hear the joy and the freedom in her voice after that decision it's so awesome good for you yep yeah i think that my dogs are i would say for sure

luxapro and honey and hattie

are the three most consistent

um

helpers of my mental health 100 and i i think your wife oh sorry yes also you

there's something that

for it's interesting that

Kelsey has an eating disorder recovery story because I think one of the things that's scary about people

is that people all have, are all conditioned.

People all have their own conditioning, their social, gender, all of it, beauty, conditioning.

And so when you are recovering from something that has so much to do with the way you view yourself and the way the world, the world treats you based on how you look, your outer shell it's not fake that you're always dealing with other people's shit

you are always dealing with other people's shit people react to you in certain ways based on how you appear in the world and when you are someone who is recovering from an eating disorder that stuff is not only triggering but it's obvious it's way more obvious than it is for other people it's like

It's like seeing the matrix all the time.

So you can see how people react better to you when you look a certain certain way or not as well to you when you look a certain way.

You're worth more because you look the way that the world has told you to look.

Whatever it is, we see it all and feel it all.

And dogs are the only beings or animals who don't.

There's none of that.

Dogs are not socially conditioned.

To me, that's why

my dogs feel like such an incredibly safe place for me because

they have not been affected by the world in ways that make them

treat me in certain ways that makes me feel unsafe.

Right.

So, yes, Kelsey.

And also, you know, people like people who have anxiety or conditions that make us overthink everything and get lost in our minds.

Dogs are the immediate fix for that.

Or cats or because they bring us back to like, okay, I just need to walk and I need to eat.

And I need to play and I need to sleep.

And then that reminds you, oh, yeah.

So like, really, what I need to do is I just need to sleep.

I need to eat.

I need to play.

That's it.

And I probably need to drink more water.

Yeah.

They bring you back to like the immediate

small thinking that like big thinking

screws you with.

Okay, let's hear from our pod squatter of the week.

Hello, my name is Leah.

So I know Alex has the sea turtles and Kish has polar bears.

Apparently, my four-year-old son has all the animals in captivity.

I recently brought him to the zoo against my better judgment because I was trying to do this progressive parenting thing where I let him make his own choices, but rather than like just pushing all of my beliefs on him, which I still think that some of them are valid, but I still want to give him the space in the room to find inside block, whatever.

Well, I'm a single parent and he saw all the animals, particularly the lions and the tigers, and all he could ask, very mildly was, Where are their mommies?

And I'm going to bust out their cages, and I'm going to bash through those cages.

Where are their mommies?

To which every other child looked at them, looked at their parents, and said, Where are their mommies?

And so I created an uprising at the National Zoo where many, many toddlers were both confused, sad, mad, crying about where all of the animals and lobbies are.

So we are doing our part to untame ourselves as well as apparently unsame all the

captivity.

Thank you for everything you do.

Oh, the uprising at the zoo.

Hell yes to that little troublemaker.

Okay, so how, first of all, I'm obsessed with, because I was trying to do this progressive parenting thing where I let him make his own choices.

Yada, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah.

First of all, yes to blah, blah, blah.

Okay.

I hear you.

I feel you on a molecular level with the blah, blah, blah.

I also try to do the blah, blah, blah.

And it feels very blah, blah, blah to me.

But I would like to say to this parent, your blah, blah, blah, trying to allow your kid to have their own vision and their own voice and their own instinct and trust it is effing working

because you thought it was just that like you're trying to take take them to the zoo, even though you don't believe in zoos.

But here they are showing up at the zoo and saying, F this,

raising their little troublemaker hand, asking the tough questions, asking the tough questions.

Your little one is looking at the zoo saying, I thought it would be more beautiful than this.

I can imagine a truer and more beautiful version of this.

And so that little troublemaker says the thing, excuse me, I'm I'm having feelings.

And then all the other toddlers are like, hell, yes, I too was having those feelings.

F this system and we're all going to band together and turn it over.

So the zoo

becomes

liberated.

Yes to you.

My gosh.

Yes to all of you people that are actually trying the yada yada.

The blah blah blah.

Blah, blah, blah.

It's effing working, y'all.

Keep it up.

We love you so much.

Ask the hard questions this week.

Raise your little toddler hand.

Do the blah, blah, blah.

Find the moments of ordinary and let the extraordinary take care of itself with your tiny little furry or scaled or feathered friends.

Oh, we love you.

We'll see you next week.

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