73. Pet Love: Are Animals the Closest We Come to Unconditional Love?

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Speaker 1 Hello to our favorite people in all the world.

Speaker 1 You. Hattie just burped.
Okay, our dogs are here, so bear with us a little bit. There is a reason for that.
There is a reason that our dogs are crawling on our lap right now.

Speaker 1 Here's what we're talking about today.

Speaker 1 As many of you may have noticed,

Speaker 1 sister, hi, sissy. Hi.

Speaker 1 Has been on a mission. I feel like since we started this podcast, I think sister has been on a serious spiritual mission since this podcast began.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 We're talking about everything. Yeah.

Speaker 1 We have forced her

Speaker 1 to talk about her life. Yep.
To diagnose and treat our own selves. Yeah.
Yeah. And it is a whole thing when you have to start digging in.

Speaker 1 And anyway, sister decided along the way that she would like to have more life in her life, right? This is a question. Where is the life in our lives?

Speaker 1 Sister decided that she might, even her achieving

Speaker 1 type A alpha self, would also like to have some delight and joy. Yeah.
Right?

Speaker 1 Am I saying that correctly?

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, no, I'm not.

Speaker 2 I think it's just,

Speaker 2 it's less like aspirational and more just desperation, more just like, it's not working for me. So what am I desperate enough to consider alternatives? Because

Speaker 1 Yes. Because

Speaker 2 I might have reached the bottom of where this particular life is going to take me.

Speaker 1 Okay. So, you know, on this podcast, that's fair.
We are less inspirational and aspirational and more desperational.

Speaker 2 Desperation. Hashtag desperation.

Speaker 1 Hashtag, we are less committed to wellness and more committed to just less dying slowly inside.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's less. Yeah.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Just

Speaker 1 okay. But you felt open, open to possible.
avenues of more delight. Would you say that? You felt your little Grinch heart

Speaker 1 preparing to expand three sizes

Speaker 2 yeah i thought you know clearly the calculations that i've made heretofore have only gotten me heretofore

Speaker 2 so i am open to the idea that maybe

Speaker 2 out of an abundance of data suggesting there might be another way okay

Speaker 1 okay right okay so at that point Here we are going along on our lives. And then your whole family comes to our family in California for the the holidays for two weeks.
Right.

Speaker 1 And what I would say about your children when they arrive.

Speaker 2 What would you say about my children?

Speaker 1 Well, one thing that I would say about my unbelievably fantastic niece and nephew are that when they see our dogs,

Speaker 1 all they do is lose their little damn minds for two weeks. Hattie, who is our little golden doodle type dog, is is thrilled by this.

Speaker 1 She has people to play with her. It's just so happy.
Honey, our French bulldog,

Speaker 1 well, she feels otherwise. Well, maybe.
I mean, I think that...

Speaker 2 She's more just like reigning queen. Like she's like, I grace you with my presence.

Speaker 1 She's also smaller than Hattie, so you can pick Honey up. Right.
And so this is where Alice and Bobby, they'll just, they'll, they'll, they'll take her, they'll maneuver her. Right.

Speaker 1 They play with her as if she's the not live dog,

Speaker 1 more like she's a doll. Right.
And then so we watch. So honey's on depression watch when they're here.

Speaker 1 She's just getting poked and prodded for a couple of weeks. She loves it, though.

Speaker 2 But just so everyone understands the context, like my kids are so obsessed with your animals that

Speaker 2 we bought Alice a special locket a couple of years ago. And I told her she could pick any member of the family, any family picture she wanted to put in there, anything that made her the happiest.

Speaker 2 And she unequivocally and very quickly said,

Speaker 2 oh, I will have a picture of honey.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 So the bulldog. So, and anything in life that brought her joy and made her feel connected and loved.
And she picked your dog. So now she has a locket with your dog in it.

Speaker 1 Amazing.

Speaker 1 And so. When you were here, we ended up talking a lot about the possibility of one day you all getting a dog.
And

Speaker 1 you've always felt open. Oh, well, you felt a teeny bit open to it because John's, your husband has been raised, was raised with German shepherds and dogs.
But I think you had this real feeling that

Speaker 1 you're still in the chaos of young children. Like the chaos, the freaking dripping with children, no minutes, no bodily autonomy,

Speaker 1 no sanity moments. Tell us how you felt about the idea of adding a dog dog to your family well it felt like you know someone who's

Speaker 2 doggie paddling just to stay afloat about to drown and then say you handed them a dog

Speaker 2 And that's how it felt. It felt like, oh, good.
So I'm barely making it. Why don't you put a dog on top of my, you know, not so buoyant body? But

Speaker 2 that's how I felt. But I did feel resigned to it because it was probably our third date, the first time that I had met John's mom.

Speaker 2 And she,

Speaker 2 the first thing

Speaker 2 she said to me was, well, Amanda, I hope you know that if you married John, you're going to have to have a dog. Like it was like out of the gate.
So I think.

Speaker 2 Oh, it was meant in like just love.

Speaker 1 Of course, John. Leave me with that, though.
I'm just saying like that. That's like a, that's like a non-negotiable.

Speaker 2 Yeah, Yeah, it has felt like that. So I was kind of resigned to it.

Speaker 2 But if you would ever have told me that I would, you know, intentionally elect

Speaker 2 to cohabitate with an animal, except under like resigned duress,

Speaker 2 I would tell you, you have me confused

Speaker 2 with someone who is a little easy breezy. So it didn't feel so much like an election.
It just kind of felt like, well, that has to happen. And of course,

Speaker 2 what happened was

Speaker 2 I kept telling my kids since they were two, oh, eventually in a few years, in a few years, when you're old enough.

Speaker 2 And at one point, maybe when they were quite young, I said, apparently to Bobby, when you're 10, because it felt millions of miles away.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 2 But then unfortunately, what happened was he is nine and a half right now. And he reminded me of that.

Speaker 1 So don't

Speaker 1 coming. Note to listeners who have young children, you never put a number

Speaker 1 on a promise.

Speaker 1 Yes. You keep it ambiguous.
You are not going in five minutes. You're not going to be there in five minutes.
You're not going to get a dog when they're 10.

Speaker 1 You're not, you, you're going to do it sometime.

Speaker 2 Right. Maybe.
Sometime. Maybe.

Speaker 1 Sometimes. Maybe.

Speaker 1 We'll see. We'll see.
We'll see.

Speaker 1 Hell to the no.

Speaker 1 Right. Okay.
But, but I.

Speaker 1 Feel this like little creaking of the dog door open because I can see a little bit when with you, when I see a little, you're usually a yes or a hell no. So when I see any wavering,

Speaker 1 I feel, oh,

Speaker 1 there's hope. There's hope.
Hell hath no fury like Glennon Doyle, whom which has now found a little slice of a door ajar. Yeah, there was no, there was no database.

Speaker 1 Y'all, she pulled out a computer, was doing research

Speaker 1 for shelters for baby details. Which we talked about during the Christmas holiday, during the holidays.

Speaker 2 So yes, I believe the door was a tiny bit ajar. And I'm like, okay, it's happening because if not now, when?

Speaker 1 It's not me who, right? So it's out there.

Speaker 2 It's out there. It's coming.
So it's time. It's not like they're going to be seniors in high school.
We're going to be like, well, now you get a dog. Right.
So

Speaker 2 we started actually talking about it. And then.

Speaker 2 The week we got home from the holidays, my sweet neighbor, who's amazing, who

Speaker 2 she found me my kids therapist. She found me their like educational diagnostic people.
She found me my therapist. She just like the,

Speaker 2 she giveth unto me good things.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 she brings a lot to the table. God, I love friends like that.
You just know you can call them and they're going to know everything.

Speaker 2 And they just like, with a light hand, but just, you know, I'm struggling with this. Okay, I got your person and I'm going to help you out.
And so she texts me out of the blue.

Speaker 2 She knows nothing about the context. And she says, I have the perfect dog for your family.

Speaker 1 So this is the moment where you think, if you're waiting for a sign, here's a sign.

Speaker 2 Okay. And of course, because what I do in those situations where I'm given signs is I say, look, an eagle.
And I try to run in the other direction.

Speaker 1 I know you called me and you're like, my friend said, I have the perfect dog for you. What do you think? I'm like, what do you mean? What do I think? What are you waiting for?

Speaker 1 The dog to actually arrive in your bed with a bow around it. Like, yes, this is the sign.

Speaker 2 So I ignored that text from her. And then like a week later, she said, are you just going to ignore the text where I said I have the perfect dog for you? And so I said, okay, tell me about the dog.

Speaker 2 So she fosters and love, love, and so many shout outs to all of the doggy foster people in the world.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's such a beautiful gift to protect these little ones after they're, you know, going through these big transitions. So she is fostering this dog.
She loves this dog.

Speaker 2 She thinks he's perfect for our family. We say, okay, can we meet the dog? We meet the dog.
We start spending a lot of time with the dog.

Speaker 1 It's like a relationship.

Speaker 2 It is.

Speaker 2 It is.

Speaker 1 You're dating. So cute.

Speaker 2 And I become much to my surprise

Speaker 2 utterly obsessed with the dog.

Speaker 2 I love him. I love him so much.
We go through this whole process where we try to adopt him.

Speaker 2 I am sweating so much i am i have to write a letter to the you have to have a home study adoption a home study they come to my house i make my kids i'm like be normal don't no one be weird everyone act the way loving normal people would act i'm i'm so nervous and

Speaker 2 We do the whole thing

Speaker 2 and they ask us lots of questions. They referrals.

Speaker 1 They call. Oh, God.

Speaker 2 Yeah, they have to like call for character references.

Speaker 1 Who did you use for character references? Did you have neighbors or like because no one called me? Nobody called us.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 1 yeah.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I,

Speaker 2 yeah, a friend and a neighbor I've used, and then

Speaker 2 they

Speaker 1 said yes. And now

Speaker 1 who do you have? Now

Speaker 2 we have Seamus,

Speaker 2 the golden retriever.

Speaker 2 He is one year and seven months old.

Speaker 2 He is so precious. He had an original owner that could not care for him anymore.
And so then he went to my neighbor's house and then he came here and he is

Speaker 2 amazing.

Speaker 1 I love him. And so

Speaker 1 we have both seen flashes of delight in you since this little dog came.

Speaker 1 Can you tell us? Because actually,

Speaker 1 when you, because I think we wait until our lives are under control to add absurd, delightful things. We think joy, absurdity, delight,

Speaker 1 unproductive,

Speaker 1 just nonsense

Speaker 1 is for when everything else is under control. So we have that feeling where we're like, I'm treading water.
I can't add a dog.

Speaker 1 But it didn't end up feeling like somebody put a dog in your hands while you were trying not to drown. What does it feel more like

Speaker 2 i mean it feels more like

Speaker 2 a reason to go play in the pool oh yeah you know it just feels it feels this is it reminds me of the friendship episode when it's like who the hell has time

Speaker 1 for

Speaker 2 friends when you don't even have time for the bazillion things in your life and it's all too much

Speaker 2 and it's like oh wait no that's exactly why we need friendship because somehow when you

Speaker 2 add

Speaker 2 lovely, soul-affirming things to your life, it makes the rest of it less heavy.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yes. So, and I just feel like

Speaker 2 I don't know. It's so interesting.
I had therapy yesterday and my therapist was talking about how

Speaker 2 we as people, it's like we each have these essential selves, but then we have all this armor we put around us.

Speaker 2 And then the people in our lives, they have their essential selves, but then they have all the armor. So when we're bumping into those people, it's just armor bumping into armor.

Speaker 2 Like we're never getting to the essential. And I realized, I'm sure there was a bigger lesson for me in my life, Rip, but I just kept thinking about Seamus.
And I'm like, that's it.

Speaker 2 That's what's so matter. He is just his essential being all the time.

Speaker 2 He's just what he is, just going about

Speaker 1 being

Speaker 2 exactly who he is at all times. And it's silly and nonsensical, but there's no armor around any of it.
And that is disarming.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 It puts you in a different place. And I think there's certain people like this in our lives, but very, very rare.
Like, Abby, I actually think you are,

Speaker 2 of all the people I know, the most

Speaker 2 regularly, essentially

Speaker 2 yourself. Like, I think that's what is so magnetic about you.
Like, that's why you're irresistible to anyone around you is because you are your essential being all

Speaker 2 a vast majority of the time. And I think it's just, there's, I think animals and the very rare people like that that we interact with, it's just so magnetic.

Speaker 1 Maybe that's why I connect so well with dogs. Maybe.
I don't know. I was just joking.

Speaker 1 I think that like, that's such a beautiful point, Cecy, because, you know, dogs to me have, or pets have this unique ability to interrupt what's going on in your life and and both good and bad right like there's some times where i'm pissed that honey like peed on the wood the floor she does pee a lot but like at the end of the day the interruption is almost always like really welcomed yeah because whatever you else you were worrying about or doing was kind of bullshit and like they don't talk to you so you have to actually create this dialogue of like what they're thinking, what you think their experience is.

Speaker 1 That's what I do. I'm like, oh, she's cold.
All we do is talk about what they're thinking. And for sure, they're not thinking any of the things.
She's feeling this. Yeah.
Look at her.

Speaker 1 She's so mad at us that we left. Look at her.
She's so

Speaker 1 sad. Look at her.

Speaker 1 Oh my God. Howdy just looked at us in this really funny, sad way.

Speaker 2 The projection of emotions on the dogs is hilarious. John walked in the other day.
That was on the floor. I'm so worried about, you know, Seamus's

Speaker 2 emotional stability.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And it's because he got left after a year and a half of his life. So I'm on the floor saying,

Speaker 2 we're never going to leave you.

Speaker 1 You have a home here forever.

Speaker 2 You can just lay down that burden of worry about. And John walks in and he's like,

Speaker 2 Yeah, you've never had dogs before.

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Speaker 1 Remember when Craig and I got Theo from the shelter? Theo now lives right with Craig down the street, also our dog.

Speaker 1 They, I went, we went and found Theo, and Theo, we knew, belonged to us, but then we had to leave because they had to do all the checks.

Speaker 1 And then they told me,

Speaker 1 we need another day because we're going to clean him all up.

Speaker 1 Do you remember this? Oh, yes.

Speaker 2 You were so upset.

Speaker 1 And I was so upset. I said, don't you clean him first.
I don't want him to learn that he has to be like

Speaker 1 fancy and clean before his family takes him. We will take him dirty.
Thank you. Right.
And then we went and got him and we were like, ew.

Speaker 1 I need you guys to clean him.

Speaker 1 And now with honey and hattie, I just feel strongly that both of these dogs

Speaker 1 are the only people who truly understand me. People, by the way.
And also

Speaker 1 they have taught me, they teach me everything about unconditional love.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. Because in different ways.
All right.

Speaker 1 Hattie,

Speaker 1 the golden doodle thing,

Speaker 1 amazing. She's, I'm staring at her right now.
She teaches me about unconditional love because she loves everyone unconditionally. It doesn't matter like if you've been gone for one second or a week.

Speaker 1 It doesn't matter if you're, she just is in

Speaker 1 so much love, so much affection. Just her energy is, I love you, I love you, I love you.
And so I learn how to

Speaker 1 be unconditionally loved from her.

Speaker 1 And with honey, the bulldog,

Speaker 1 I learn how to love something unconditionally who doesn't give a crap about me.

Speaker 2 It's like, it's a gift of unrequited love.

Speaker 1 It is. It's like, I, she really only loves me because

Speaker 1 I'm warm. It's conditioned.
It's the conditions are,

Speaker 1 are you a warm body?

Speaker 2 Like, like temperature-wise. Exactly.

Speaker 1 No, just

Speaker 1 like, do you have sweatpants on that are soft and cozy?

Speaker 2 What are you bringing to the table, Doyle? That's it.

Speaker 1 Or are you, do you have food for me? Do you feed me? Other than that, she's a cat. So I have to learn how to love her

Speaker 1 unconditionally, not based on how she treats me.

Speaker 1 So it's like absolute opposites, but they're both teaching me. And the one thing that I'll say that

Speaker 1 I appreciate so much about dogs is that in this world where it feels like I'm always earning my worthiness based on like how much I do, how busy I am, what I can give you,

Speaker 1 whatever, how we all feel, what I'm bringing to the table, what I'm,

Speaker 1 what I've done for you lately, like that, that feeling of I always have to be producing to

Speaker 1 feel like I have, you know, earned my right to exist on the earth. The dogs are the only beings that I feel love me more the less I do.
Oh, yeah. Well, because you're sitting on the couch.
Yes.

Speaker 1 Whenever you're on the couch, they're right there. Their best day for me, they're heaven.

Speaker 1 They're like, you're the best dog mom in the entire world would be if I sort of woke up, not really, didn't shower, sat back on the couch, didn't move all day,

Speaker 1 and then went to bed again. Yeah.
That would be their,

Speaker 1 this is the best person in the uni. And there's something that is so healing about this.
Like they are a walking invitation, a walking reminder to play and to rest

Speaker 1 and to get fresh air.

Speaker 2 Right. Because they're going, right, because your couch story assumes that Abby is taking them out for a for a walk at some point.
Right. But, but it's true.
And I do, I get it.

Speaker 2 It's because I feel like as a person who lives by a spreadsheet and where it's hard to

Speaker 2 stop or slow down, I feel

Speaker 2 like

Speaker 2 what Seamus is proving is that

Speaker 2 nonsensical things.

Speaker 2 are important. Like when you actually do the spreadsheet, when you're like, okay, their food and care costs many, many dollars.

Speaker 1 Lo, so many dollars.

Speaker 2 They require a commitment of a lot of time and structure and planning.

Speaker 2 And then, on like the deposits column, oh god,

Speaker 2 there's like nothing quantifiable, nothing makes sense about the spreadsheet, but just their being and their just kind of the delight that they offer is makes it just

Speaker 2 a resounding yes, even though the spreadsheet says no.

Speaker 2 So my religion of the spreadsheet and there being logical, quantifiable things, it kind of ruins my religion because I'm like, this thing doesn't make any damn sense, but yet I need it very much.

Speaker 1 Dogs will destroy your capitalistic productivity religion. I think that like what is so valuable to me about a dog is that they constantly are

Speaker 1 this mirror of like, oh, just be here, right? Like they're not living in their past. They're not living in their future.
They're just like right here, right now, all the time.

Speaker 1 And like, yes, sometimes it's annoying when they like want something right now, but at the end of the day, it's like such a good for me. They put the be in the being.
Like they do.

Speaker 1 They're just like right here, right now, all the time.

Speaker 1 And that is when I'm at my happiest. And then cats.
Oh, don't get me started. Listen.
So Abby does not appreciate a cat. I'm allergic.
I'm allergic to cats. She just says she is.

Speaker 1 So we definitely can't get one. No, I'm very allergic to cats.
Okay. Well, the cat sander makes me sneeze.

Speaker 1 Are you physically or spiritually allergic? Physically. Okay.
So I appreciate a cat. Okay.
And I think it's because in life, Abby's more of a dog.

Speaker 1 But cats, they are badass with their boundaries. They are not trying to please anybody.

Speaker 1 They, right? We had cats growing up. They're always judging.
They're always looking

Speaker 1 and judging me. And all I want to do is be like, what?

Speaker 2 Cats are the lovies.

Speaker 1 They're the lovies of the animals. What animals can do.

Speaker 2 Do better, people. Yes.

Speaker 1 Yes. And I appreciate that.
So they're not trying to please.

Speaker 1 but they're also cozy. We grew up with cat after cat after cat.
Do you remember when gummy, gumdrop, I got to name that cat.

Speaker 1 So she had a litter of kittens in my closet.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 something

Speaker 1 happened.

Speaker 1 Gumdrop decided not to feed one of them. It was like this little runty runt.
And Gumdrop was like over it. I now understand Gumdrop's resistance and protest.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's hard not to feel that way about your second. It was like her sixth.
Exactly. And she's like, oh, hell no.
Yes. Five is my limit.

Speaker 1 Yes. And so there was this one kitten that was not thriving.

Speaker 1 And do you really, I think you and me or me and a friend?

Speaker 2 No, it was just, it was just you. And you had a friend over that night that they were born, but you made it your life's mission to bring this little kitty along.
And she wouldn't have.

Speaker 2 lived. No.

Speaker 1 And without you just eyedropper,

Speaker 2 you had an eyedropper of milk and you fed that thing every single day. And you kept, and remember, it wouldn't grow.
It wouldn't grow. It was like perfect.
It was like kitten size for its whole life.

Speaker 2 And so it was perfect because it was, but it was fat shit crazy.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 She lost some brain action, I think, in the beginning.

Speaker 2 Oh, she was amazing.

Speaker 1 Don't you remember how wild she was? She would attack everybody but me. Dad couldn't feed her because she'd just go crazy and attack her.
It's like a foreshadowing for your life.

Speaker 1 Yeah, some kind of metaphor. and we named Miracle.

Speaker 1 Oh, sweet miracle!

Speaker 2 I loved miracle, I loved miracle, but it's true, Abby, what you were saying, because I feel like there's so many points where theoretically, throughout our day in our lives, we'd be appreciate little moments.

Speaker 2 We could be going around being like, Oh, look at that smile! Oh, look at that.

Speaker 2 We could see anything as beautiful and special, but this having a

Speaker 2 vehicle of like a furry, precious, lovely thing kind of like

Speaker 2 it forces you

Speaker 2 your attention into the moments that you would otherwise

Speaker 1 miss. And it gives everybody in the family this.
I feel like in our family, the dogs are also like a pressure release valve.

Speaker 1 You're just staring at each other all day and you're like, We want to talk about real stuff. We're talking about stuff, looking at each other, judging each other, trying to figure each other out.

Speaker 1 Like, how are you feeling, kids? And also, like, what's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? And then the dog comes and everybody gets to shift literally their gaze from each other

Speaker 1 to the dog. And it's just this release valve of intensity to joy.
Yeah. Or stress.
I mean, honestly, our dogs are always peeing, always going in the trash. I mean, it's also, it's not all roses.

Speaker 1 No, it's not all roses, but it's worth it. Totally.
Even the peeing and the trash eating and the barking with Hattie, it's worth it.

Speaker 1 Like the amount of times that we look at each other and the dogs are on our bed, are we in the bed? We have no boundaries. And we're like, I love them so, like, and our teeth are

Speaker 1 like, I love them so much. What is that?

Speaker 1 Why do we want to eat them? That's

Speaker 1 so weird. We have a beast in our bed.
Yeah. We have a beast in our bed.
Yeah. And we're happy to be.

Speaker 2 It's an animal.

Speaker 1 And you should know that we have trained them. to sleep with their heads on the pillow between us.
They sleep like human beings.

Speaker 1 It's a row of

Speaker 1 Doyle Wombok. Like it's Abby, then Hattie, then Honey, then me.
And then during the night,

Speaker 1 I move Honey over to the other side of Abby because she snores so loud.

Speaker 1 And now we have a new animal. Well, here is where

Speaker 1 things get a little wild.

Speaker 2 You're even surprising yourself.

Speaker 1 The absurdity of dogs for us. Gate pets.
They're gateways. Is there a gateway?

Speaker 1 And I've always been anti, I've always been pro-dog, anti-everything else. Yes.
Especially rodents, especially, especially snakes and rodents. Okay.
Those.

Speaker 1 And I, I send all of the rodents and snakes love,

Speaker 1 but they're just, it's just not for me. It's just not my jam.
Right. Well, Tish, she comes to us recently and she said, you know what?

Speaker 1 You know what my life is missing? My life is missing a hamster. And she knows us as parents very well.
And so she is, you know, informing and educating the three of us.

Speaker 1 And she's also telling us why she needs it. Tisha's the one who, like, six years after the divorce will still explain that perhaps she forgot her book report because of the trauma of a broken family.

Speaker 1 She knows. So she told us that she was feeling like lonely and so she needed a hamster.

Speaker 1 She played all of our buttons.

Speaker 1 She approaches us and she has what feels like a little bit like of a

Speaker 1 report, like a school report. Like here is how long the hamster lives

Speaker 1 and also benefits. She fibbed on that.
She said only one year.

Speaker 1 And this one lives too. We get to the freaking,

Speaker 1 we decide, okay, we're going to do this. No, no, no.
First you said absolutely nothing. Of course.
And then four days later, no

Speaker 1 pet store. No, we say, absolutely, you can do this at Craig's house.
Yeah, that's right. That's right.
Craig and I, Craig and I are texting back and forth, like negotiating the crap out of this.

Speaker 1 Not it.

Speaker 1 Not it. Exactly.
And so we decide as a family that hamster is going to live at Craig's house. Well,

Speaker 1 I don't know how this happens. I don't know either.
Tish decides that she needs the hamster now, and the hamster is now having to live in our house.

Speaker 2 Because of the divorce problem.

Speaker 1 Because of the divorce. So we go to the freaking store.
We get this hamster. Biscuit, the hamster.
We get all the things. The whole damn family goes.
And now the hamster is living at our house.

Speaker 1 And how do you feel about the hamster, babe? Okay, so here's the deal with

Speaker 1 biscuit, new rodent. I call her Beatrix.
We call her Beatrix.

Speaker 1 I freaking love this thing.

Speaker 1 I, when, when Tish goes and is at Craig's house,

Speaker 1 I sit and I watch her.

Speaker 1 This thing is a knock. Did you know?

Speaker 1 I didn't know hamsters were nocturnal. Like, I actually don't know what the point of her is because somebody's up during the night and not at all during the day.
So there's like one hour between

Speaker 1 by the time we go to, we're like in bed that she might nine to ten, nine to ten. Nine to ten p.m.
That I just sit there and I'm watching her and Tish does

Speaker 1 bath bonding time. So Tish and the hamster.
So what I'm trying to, what we're trying to tell you, pods blood. Watch out for the dogs.
From nine to ten.

Speaker 1 First of all, we used to go to to bed at nine okay now from nine to ten i am in my bed reading and if you need to find abby you have to go to tish's room even when tish is not here even when she's at craigs abby is sitting cross-legged in front of a cage that's on the floor i love that thing in the dark i just wanted to come out and she's staring waiting for biscuit to peek her little biscuit head out unless of course

Speaker 1 tish is home when tish is home abby stares with Tish from 9-9-30, and then Tish brings the hamster into the only bathtub that exists in our home, which is in my bathroom.

Speaker 1 And Tish and the hamster sit in our bathtub for half an hour. What are they even doing?

Speaker 1 There's just bath bed. It's called the bathtim bonding.
But like, what's so fun? Is it flow? No, no, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 1 No water. No water.
There's no water on the water. It's just an enclosed space.
So, so as the hamster doesn't like crawl into the crevice of a room and go away forever.

Speaker 1 So this is a safe, a safe place. But I do think

Speaker 1 it's a perfect example of what pets do to a family because

Speaker 1 my one sacred safe space, right? When I do, when I get into the bathtub now, there's hamster shit in it.

Speaker 1 Literally.

Speaker 1 No, Tish cleans it up. No, she cleans it up.
A and B, here's what I'll say about this little hamster. And I think the real reason why I love it, it's because

Speaker 1 this child worked really hard to convince us. She did.
And I love this child. Yes, you do.
So much.

Speaker 1 I love our children so much that when she comes into our room and talks about the love that she has for this biscuit, it's like it's a grand animal. She's our grand hamster.
She's our grand hamster.

Speaker 1 And I

Speaker 1 love this thing as if it's my own because it kind of is.

Speaker 1 And because we've watched her, i mean tish you know how she is she would not she came into our room each night and talked about how she's fostering trust between her and the hamster she would never pick her up because she she needed to earn the hamster coming to her it was very

Speaker 1 she was trying to go in set out the hamster for who the hamster was don't you go in that room she said yeah so

Speaker 1 i'm like gosh don't you go in that room abby i'm like all right well and then of course I got to get in there just to see. Yeah, you do sneak in.

Speaker 1 Well, because I think that all animals are going to love me the most. You do.
You do.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 1 I understand it's unhealthy.

Speaker 2 It's so good. It's so good.

Speaker 1 You know what we don't talk enough about? Sleep. I mean, we spend a third of our lives doing it, and it literally impacts everything.

Speaker 1 Your mood, focus, workouts, even how you show up for the people you love. But here's the thing.
Not all sleep is good sleep.

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Speaker 1 I love being able to take out the fill until it was perfectly adjusted to my neck and spine. You can feel the difference, and I want all of our listeners to try this pillow.

Speaker 1 Upgrade your sleep, visit coopsleepgoods.com/slash slash hard things to get 20% off your first order. That's C-O-O-P sleepgoods.com slash hard things.

Speaker 2 All right, let's, we have some

Speaker 2 questions from Pod Squad about their pet.

Speaker 1 Great. Let's hear some pet cues from the Pod Squatters.

Speaker 3 Hi, my name is Leah.

Speaker 3 I'm calling in because I'm really excited about something. My dog, Stella, and I are going to go to our first group class to work on some issues that she has.

Speaker 3 We've been doing a training program for a while now and we've done some private lessons, but this is our first group class and I'm really scared and excited about it. I just love Stella so much.

Speaker 3 She's such a sweet dog, but she just has a lot of issues. Whenever we go outside,

Speaker 3 Stella just feels all of the things. She is so affectionate and loving, but she gets so scared and anxious when we go outside.

Speaker 3 But we're working through it because I want her to be able to go out into the world with me. And I just wanted to call and tell you about that because she's on my island and I love her a lot.

Speaker 3 I'd love to hear. more about your guys' relationship with honey and hattie and any other pets that you've had.

Speaker 1 Thanks.

Speaker 3 Bye.

Speaker 1 Leah is Stella's emotional support human. And you know what? She, you know who Stella reminds me of? Who? My beautiful wife.

Speaker 2 She just feels so much. She's so lovely, but then she goes out into the world and she's so nervous and scared.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I'm glad that Stella's getting some group therapy.

Speaker 1 I just wish she would still just be able to go to her private lessons.

Speaker 2 I feel like it's so, I love that she said that she's on my island because we have received so many messages from people that are saying, you know, my animal is the closest thing to me.

Speaker 2 And I think that that is beautiful. And I feel like there's kind of a cultural

Speaker 2 kind of like in the

Speaker 2 friends episode where we talked about, you know, you get a divorce and everyone's like, oh, I'm so sorry. But then you break up with your best friend and the world is like moving right along.

Speaker 2 I just want to say say out loud that there's so many people for whom their connection to their animals is their deepest, most profound.

Speaker 1 The love story of their life.

Speaker 2 The love story. The love story of their life.
That's right. It's a real thing.

Speaker 2 And I feel like we kind of belittle it a little bit. But there's honestly, when you look at

Speaker 2 like the actual research, people should not be belittling it. Dogs actually, and animals, pets that you love, they actually

Speaker 2 increase your oxytocin. They make you less stressed out.
They increase the way that you socialize in the world. That like people socialize more in the world who have animals that don't.

Speaker 2 They handle stress better. They have lower blood pressure.
I mean, when's the last time a friendship did that for you? I'm just saying.

Speaker 1 You might want to check.

Speaker 1 Well, it's like if we're basing our all over health and wellness on physicality, then all those things you just said, scientifically, the animals make us, make our lives better but also there's no spiritual tradition that at the heart of it doesn't say okay the way to the way is presence yes that's it like that's it that's what everybody's saying in all of the in love and presence presence and love loving presence that's what every spiritual tradition tells us is the answer and dogs and animals that's what they're forcing us into that's right is loving presence huh it's that william martin quote do not ask your children to strive for extraordinary lives.

Speaker 2 Such striving may seem admirable, but it is the way of foolishness. Help them instead to find the wonder and the marvel of an ordinary life.
Show them the joy of tasting tomatoes, apples, and pears.

Speaker 2 Show them how to cry when pets and people die. Show them the infinite pleasure in the touch of a hand and make the ordinary come alive for them.
The extraordinary will take care of itself.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like that's what I feel like they do. It's kind of like when you're doing meditation, bring your breath back, bring your breath back, bring your breath back.

Speaker 2 It's like, that's what I feel like Seamus does for me. You know, I'm so busy seeing the next thing, the next thing, the next thing.
And him being there is like,

Speaker 2 bring your presence back to this moment because I'm looking your face. Bring your presence back to this moment because I need you to pull on this rope.
Like, it doesn't matter all these other things.

Speaker 1 The meditation thing is so interesting because I was actually, this happens to me all the time. I'm meditating

Speaker 1 just recently, meditating upstairs and Hattie, she's thinks she's a guard dog. So she's sitting by the window and she's freaking out.
She's freaking out.

Speaker 1 Okay, so I'm trying to meditate and Hattie is looking out our window and freaking out because she thinks that the

Speaker 1 person who's walking by our house is attacking us. So she's just distracting us from this beautiful meditation because she thinks she's under attack.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 of course, you know, in meditation, Pemisha Jon always says the obstacle in the path is the path.

Speaker 1 So when my dog interrupts me because she's freaking out because she doesn't think she's safe in my meditation, I try to think, okay, not like you're so annoying, you're messing up my meditation, but this is my meditation for the day.

Speaker 1 How is Hattie interrupting me because she's scared my meditation? And to me, the answer is.

Speaker 1 I'm saying to Hattie, why are you freaking out? You're totally safe. We're in this beautiful moment.
I've got this.

Speaker 1 And the God of whoever, all of our understanding, the universe is looking at me and saying, why are you always freaking out?

Speaker 1 We're in this beautiful moment. You're safe.

Speaker 1 You don't have to guard your house. I've got this.
You're safe.

Speaker 2 And why your God is saying to you, why do you, I send all of this into your life and you interpret every passerby as a potential threat.

Speaker 1 intruder and threat and you're always barking glennon you are always afraid So you're always barking when you could be just laying around in the sun in this house that is safe. Wow.

Speaker 1 I'll tell you what, my meditations go quite different.

Speaker 1 That's so good. Damn, man.
All right, let's hear from this next caller.

Speaker 1 That was good. Thank you, baby.

Speaker 3 I was listening to your podcast last night as I was driving home from the 24-hour vet emergency for, you know, another crazy dog emergency. And it got me home at four in the morning without crashing.

Speaker 3 So it definitely kept me awake and entertained. But my question for you is,

Speaker 3 how do you deal with hard things with pets? You know, we get gifted these incredible animals into our lives that become part of our family. And I don't have kids, so

Speaker 3 I definitely have the fur babies. And you just fall so deeply in love with them.
And you also know it's a short, short time.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 so, yeah, I guess I was just curious as to what your relationship is with pets and how you hold on to that connection, knowing that it's shorter than most human connections.

Speaker 3 What do you do with the grief around all of that? Like, what do you find helpful? So, anyway, I love you guys. You're wonderful.
And please keep doing all the beautiful work that you're doing.

Speaker 3 Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 Bye.

Speaker 1 I think Sissy's crying. Are you crying over there?

Speaker 2 I just don't.

Speaker 2 I've never been through that.

Speaker 1 She just got, she just got Seamus. So.
Yeah. I mean, that's the question.
That's the question, right?

Speaker 1 I'm thinking about the first experience that we had with animals and death was usually, I feel like most parents who are resisting fur animals because they feel like they're treading too much water.

Speaker 1 We start with fish.

Speaker 1 That's what our family did. We started with fish.

Speaker 2 We were like, no, no. That's the reverse gateway.
Yeah. Because, you know, I bought three years of non-dog time by having fish.

Speaker 1 Right. Exactly.
So it's like hold, it's a hold off. It's a dam.
It's a, yeah.

Speaker 1 So we bought fish. We had three little beta fish that were in different little, what are they called? Tiny aquariums.
They were in each of the kids' rooms.

Speaker 1 This is when we were like real heavy, like Jesus-y. I am not kidding.

Speaker 1 The fish's names were Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. I did not name that.
Oh my gosh. Are you kidding me? No, I haven't even told you this whole thing.
So

Speaker 1 Amma had Jesus, Tish had Mary, and Chase had Joseph.

Speaker 2 Did Jesus just appear

Speaker 2 on Mary without Joseph?

Speaker 2 Was it two aquariums? And then it's like, Mary, I'm to her.

Speaker 1 Exactly. Jesus is given.

Speaker 1 So weird, you guys.

Speaker 2 And you had to move him?

Speaker 1 Unexplainable. And Mary, the fish, was like, dude, I swear to God, I did not have fish sex.
I did not have fish sexual

Speaker 2 side-eyeing Mary for the first couple of days.

Speaker 1 He's like, I was like, Joseph, Joseph the fish was like, I freaking knew it. This is my favorite thing that has ever happened on our podcast.
Anyway, just happened.

Speaker 1 So, we've got Jesus Mary and Joseph was going fine for a little while. And my friends had their kids over,

Speaker 1 and they were all running around upstairs in the kids' bedrooms, all the little ones. And I hear screaming from upstairs, and

Speaker 1 Amma is little, her little voice is screaming,

Speaker 1 Mom,

Speaker 1 Jesus is dead.

Speaker 1 Jesus is dead.

Speaker 1 Okay, over and over again. So we run upstairs and poor little Peyton, Amma's friend, has poured the whole fish food

Speaker 1 into the aquarium. And so Jesus has indeed

Speaker 1 gorged Jesus himself so much. that Jesus is in fact dead and floating.
And for sure, Amma's waiting for it to resurrect. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 This promise is real.

Speaker 1 Yeah, for sure. Amma's like, this story is not yet over.

Speaker 2 Right. It's the Friday.
Exactly.

Speaker 1 It's the Friday. First the pain, then the waiting, then the rising, right? But in fact, Jesus, the fish, was not going to rise.
And so

Speaker 1 this was the first real conversation that we had to have as a family.

Speaker 1 About religion. About.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that was tricky. But, you know, really just talking about what is the point.
I mean, I remember saying to Chase, like, what is the point? They just die. We love them and then they die.

Speaker 1 And it was speaking to this larger point of like, what is the point of loving at all?

Speaker 1 And I really remember the five of us just coming to the idea of we do not love because it lasts forever. Because if we did that, we would all be fools.

Speaker 1 We would all be wrong. We would all be wasting our time because it will never, in fact, last forever.
But

Speaker 1 we love because the process of loving something changes us. Yes.
Because the process, the doing of it, the loving and being loved creates this

Speaker 1 growth. in us

Speaker 1 that leaves us different and better and wholer and more beautiful when it ends,

Speaker 1 after it ends.

Speaker 1 Right. So maybe that love doesn't even really ever end.
I still love the dog that I had from years and years ago. Yeah, you're right.
It doesn't. You're right.
It doesn't end.

Speaker 1 The relationship doesn't fully end.

Speaker 2 Everything we love will transform in some way or another over the lifespan, but it's so compressed with our little animals that,

Speaker 2 again, with the presence, it's present in your head the whole time.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You know, you know.
Yes. I think that

Speaker 1 it's like death in training.

Speaker 1 And we get to practice, hopefully, throughout the whole of our life with these pets to start learning about death and understanding what the relationship we personally have with it so that we can prep for the death of our, you know, parents or, or our loved ones.

Speaker 1 Like, I just think.

Speaker 1 I mean, what a, what, like, I don't know if there's a more beautiful lesson you can teach. And it's just so interesting to me that for us, these dogs and this hamster

Speaker 1 are going to help us and teach our kids. Exactly.
Because it also, I don't know how to do it. I certainly don't know what's right and wrong, but I know what feels tempting to me when

Speaker 1 an animal is lost. What's tempting to me is what's tempting to me with everything that my kids go through.
It's painful, which is,

Speaker 1 it's okay. And look an eagle and here's a new one and don't feel any of it and moving on.

Speaker 1 You know, all of these things we do where we're replacing the animal really fast or we're like, you know, distracting them or we're telling them that it went to live on a farm somewhere or we're

Speaker 1 lying and lying and lying so that they don't feel the loss of loss. And for me, it's an opportunity to resist that and to trust that to show them ritual, right?

Speaker 1 To like give a container to grief, to give give a a vehicle to it okay yeah now we sit sadly and we don't know we don't know we say we don't know we don't necessarily if we don't believe it make up a bunch of stories about what is happening we don't know and then we sit and we don't know together and we feel sad together and then we create some sort of ritual to help us move through our grief And I think that the same, you know, it is practiced for human loss, but it also is its own real loss.

Speaker 2 That is a very real loss. And I think, you know, I didn't grow up with dogs, but John was one of five kids.

Speaker 2 And it's so interesting how when the family gets together, I feel like a lot of the portion of the conversation revolve. They're all different ages.
They span this gap, but they have the glue.

Speaker 2 It reminds me of Untamed Elmers.

Speaker 2 It's like the glue that connects their experiences through these various times where they were different ages and different stages is what dog was at the center of their family during

Speaker 2 any time period. And they get together and they talk about those times with the dog.
And so, and this is, you know,

Speaker 2 40 years later,

Speaker 2 you know, the dog we had then, then the dog we had then. And silly, they actually tell stories all the time about it.
So I feel like it's a really

Speaker 2 acknowledging the glue that is these animals in our families and how that continuity

Speaker 2 can

Speaker 2 still be alive years later is really special.

Speaker 1 And it's like the center. Like, we think of pets as like the app.

Speaker 1 I'm thinking of a wheel, a wheel right now when you're talking. And I'm thinking of how we think of pets as like, you know, they're on the outside with us, but maybe the pet is the center.

Speaker 1 The dog is the center because it's like everybody gets to have their own separate relationship with the dog, too. And every kid gets kind of what they need.

Speaker 1 You know, a kid who needs to play and be engaged, you know, a kid, I remember the cats, like

Speaker 1 a sensitive kid who like feels so much at school and can't connect with people at school, but then comes home to their safe place with the dog.

Speaker 1 It's like, the dog turns out kind of to be the center of the wheel because it's the only part of the wheel that is consistently its essential nature.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, when I get with my

Speaker 2 you know, son, I love him so much, but I bring so much fear and anxiety about his future and what's going on here and what's going on there.

Speaker 2 That there is inevitably some of my armor pushing his armor at all times, as sad as it makes me feel. Like, but with the same with my husband, but the dog is the only one in the family who is

Speaker 2 strictly his essential nature. So, when that's the case, people can come and get what they need and have this genuine connection.
Yeah.

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Speaker 1 All right, let's hear from Kelsey.

Speaker 3 Hi, guys. My name is Kelsey.

Speaker 3 I am a nurse, and my first year I worked in a pediatric ICU that was emotionally traumatizing, physically traumatizing, and threatened the eating disorder recovery I had worked so hard to maintain.

Speaker 3 And it took everything in me to quit that job. It was like the first time I did something despite knowing that everybody

Speaker 3 would look at me differently and possibly think I failed. So that is the best decision I think I've made in a very long time.
I love my job now.

Speaker 3 I'm getting my master's in psychiatric nursing and I'll be a psych MP in a couple years. But I just wanted to ask you guys, do you have pets? And if you do,

Speaker 3 have they like changed your mental health at all? I just adopted kittens and it's been the most mentally well I've been in a long time.

Speaker 3 Love you guys.

Speaker 1 We love you too, Kelsey. First of all, this is such an example of the bravest thing.
The bravest thing is sometimes doing the thing that everyone else will think

Speaker 1 was weak,

Speaker 1 was wimpy. That is some brave stuff, Kelsey.
And then you can hear the joy and the freedom in her voice after that decision. It's so awesome.
Good for you. Yep.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think that my dogs are, I would say for sure,

Speaker 1 Lexa Pro and Honey and Hattie

Speaker 1 are the three most consistent

Speaker 1 helpers of my mental health, 100%. And I, I think.
Also your wife. Oh, sorry.
Yes. Also you.

Speaker 1 There's something that

Speaker 1 for it's interesting that

Speaker 1 Kelsey has an eating disorder recovery story because I think one of the things that's scary about people

Speaker 1 is that people all have are all conditioned. People all have their own conditioning, their social, gender, all of it, beauty, conditioning.

Speaker 1 And so when you are recovering from something that has so much to do with the way you view yourself and the way the world, the world treats you based on how you look, your outer shell.

Speaker 1 It's not fake that you're always dealing with other people's shit.

Speaker 1 You are always dealing with other people's shit.

Speaker 1 People react to you in certain ways based on how you appear in the world and when you are someone who is recovering from an eating disorder that stuff is not only triggering but it's obvious it's way more obvious than it is for other people it's like

Speaker 1 It's like seeing the matrix all the time. So you can see how people react better to you when you look a certain way or not as well to you when you look a certain way.

Speaker 1 You're worth more because you look the way that the world has told you to look. Whatever it is, we see it all and feel it all.
And dogs are the only beings or animals who don't.

Speaker 1 There's none of that. Dogs are not socially conditioned.

Speaker 1 To me, that's why

Speaker 1 my dogs feel like such an incredibly safe place for me because

Speaker 1 they have not been affected by the world in ways that make them

Speaker 1 treat me in certain ways that makes me feel unsafe. Right.

Speaker 1 So yes, Kelsey. And also, you know, people like people who have anxiety or conditions that make us overthink everything and get lost in our minds.

Speaker 1 Dogs are the immediate fix for that or cats or because they bring us back to like, okay, I just need to walk and I need to eat and I need to play and I need to sleep.

Speaker 1 And then that reminds you, oh, yeah. So like, really, what I need to do is I just need to sleep.
I need to eat. I need to play.
That's it.

Speaker 1 And I probably need to drink more water. Yeah.
They bring you back to like the immediate

Speaker 1 small thinking that like big thinking

Speaker 1 screws you with

Speaker 1 okay let's hear from our pod squatter of the week

Speaker 1 hello my name is leah so i know alice has the sea turtles and kish has polar bears apparently my four-year-old son has all the animals in captivity i recently brought him to the zoo against my better judgment because i was trying to do this aggressive parenting thing where i let him make his own choices, but rather than like just pushing all of my beliefs on him, which I still think that some of them are valid, but I still want to give him the space in the room to find his guys,

Speaker 1 blah, whatever.

Speaker 1 Well, I'm a single parent, and he saw all the animals, particularly the lions and the tigers, and all he could ask, very mildly, was, where are their mice?

Speaker 1 And I'm going to bust out their cages, and I'm going to bash through those cages. Where are their mommies?

Speaker 1 To which every other child looked at them, looked at their parents, and said, where are their mommies?

Speaker 1 And so I created an uprising at the National Zoo where many, many toddlers were both confused, sad, mad, crying about where all of the influence mommies are.

Speaker 1 So we are doing our part to untame ourselves as well as apparently untame all the

Speaker 1 captivity.

Speaker 1 Thank you for everything you do.

Speaker 1 Oh, the uprising at the zoo. Hell yes to that little troublemaker.

Speaker 1 Okay, so how, first of all, I'm obsessed with, because I was trying to do this progressive parenting thing where I let him make his own choices, yada, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1 First of all, yes to blah, blah, blah. Okay.
I hear you. I feel you on a molecular level with the blah, blah, blah.
I also try to do the blah, blah, blah. And it feels very blah, blah, blah to me.

Speaker 1 But I would like to say to this parent, your blah, blah, blah, trying to allow your kid to have their own vision and their own voice and their own instinct and trust it is effing working.

Speaker 1 Because you thought it was just that like you're trying to take them to the zoo, even though you don't believe in zoos. But here they are showing up at the zoo and saying, F this,

Speaker 1 raising their little troublemaker hand, asking the tough questions, asking the tough questions.

Speaker 2 Your little one is looking at the zoo saying, I thought it would be more beautiful than this.

Speaker 1 I can imagine a truer and more beautiful version of this. And so, that little troublemaker says the thing, excuse me, I'm having feelings.

Speaker 1 And then all the other toddlers are like, Hell, yes, I too was having those feelings. F this system, and we're all going to band band together and turn it over.

Speaker 1 So the zoo

Speaker 1 becomes

Speaker 1 liberated.

Speaker 1 Yes to you. My gosh.
Yes to all of you people that are actually trying the yada yada. The blah blah blah.
Blah, blah, blah. It's effing working, y'all.
Keep it up. We love you so much.

Speaker 1 Ask the hard questions this week. Raise your little toddler hand.
Do the blah, blah, blahs.

Speaker 2 Find the moments of ordinary and let the extraordinary take care of itself with your tiny little furry or scaled or feathered friends.

Speaker 1 Oh, we love you. We'll see you next week.

Speaker 1 We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it.
It's fine.