33. Living by Your Own Original Music Instead of Crappy Cover Tunes

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Well, hello, everybody.

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

Thank you for coming back.

We're thrilled every time you do.

Hi, Amanda and Abby.

Hello, Glennon Kishman Doyle.

Do people know your middle name, kishman hi i said it yeah my name is glennon kishman dole she looks up she looked up like she didn't remember she's like yeah like it was on like like a cue card behind her or something

doyle that's right that's right well i do have to do that stuff i can do hard things but not easy things like remember my full name or what age i am abby knows that i have several times googled how old i am

so i get so confused i am 45

and my name is right is that that's right And my name is Glennon Kishman Doyle.

My first name, Glennon, is my paternal grandmother's last name.

Ruth Glennon.

Ruth Glennon.

And Kishman is my mother's maiden name.

And Doyle is, we are both Doyles.

We are.

Amanda, even though we are both married, we are both.

Doyles.

The second time that I got married, I realized I already had a goddamn last name,

which I somehow didn't know the first time I got married.

So anyway, I just kept my name.

Yeah.

So.

And by the way, can I just say we have to have a podcast on that?

Yeah, it's interesting.

Right.

Unbelievable.

Continue.

Sorry.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's really something.

I will say a really cool thing that I just saw that one of your

soccery people, Sam Mewis.

Yeah.

She got engaged, right?

Is this Sam Mewis?

Yeah, she's now married, but yeah.

Okay, so she's married and her husband took her last name.

That's right.

And, you know, that sounds like so amazing and awesome and cool.

And wow, until you think, like, well, why is it a big deal?

Because women always are taking their men's last name and nobody's like, oh, that's so kind of you, you know?

But I just think it's cool.

Okay, so.

Sister, Abby and I have not talked to you for a few minutes.

Do you know?

No, I miss you.

We miss you too.

I just want our We Can Do Hard Things listeners to know that the reason we haven't talked in a few days is because a few days ago, I decided, with lots of help from my family, that I needed to,

how shall we say, get my shit together a little bit?

Process.

Process, maybe.

I don't know.

I just,

every so often,

I just start to

not be fine.

Just not be fine is the best way I can describe it.

I don't, I, there was so much, so much going on in the world and

Chase left for college and I wasn't processing any of it and I was just going and going and going.

And the way I usually notice that I'm not fine is when I start saying I'm fine.

All the time.

So when anyone asks me how I'm, I'm fine.

I'm fine.

I'm fine.

I'm fine.

Do you know what's so cool is I was talking to Dina.

Dina is our basically family.

She helps us run this whole shebang.

And she used to work with kids.

Okay, before she came to work with us, she used to work with kids.

Same, same.

So

she

was telling me this thing that I thought was so cool.

How every time a kid falls down or hurts theirself or is sad or cries, what do we say to them?

You're fine.

You're You're fine.

You're fine.

You're fine.

It's okay.

You're fine.

You're fine.

You're fine.

You're fine.

And we train them

to, every time they're feeling something,

to think, I'm fine.

I'm fine.

And then we wonder why adults are constantly saying every time they feel not fine, they say, I'm fine.

That's so funny.

What if we, I mean, it's, it's so true.

Because fine, it's actually not not yellow.

You're yellow.

You're yellow.

Like, it's equally arbitrary.

Exactly.

How are y'all doing?

We're yellow.

We're yellow.

How are you?

It means nothing.

It means nothing.

Fine.

I'm fine.

It's not a feeling.

It's not.

But isn't that wild to think about that we're actually trained?

That's so funny.

I know, but I never say that.

I never, ever, ever say that.

You don't say you're fine.

When you said, what do we say to kids?

I literally didn't.

know what you're saying.

I always say, did that hurt you or did that scare you?

That's good.

That's good.

Because half the time they're just like, it scared me.

It scared me.

It scared me.

That's like when Tish, oh my God.

Oh, yes.

When Tish went down on the soccer field once, she went down hard, y'all.

She went down hard

and she was down for a while

and everybody was nervous and the coach went over and talked to her, leaned over her.

Then they all go back to the bench.

Everybody claps.

The coach texts us.

Okay, this is not a coach thing to do, but she needed to tell us the story so bad that she texts us on the sideline from the bench because she says she has leaned over to Tish and said,

What hurts the most?

Like she's trying to isolate the pain, right?

Like where it is in her body.

She goes, what hurts the most?

And Tish opens her eyes and says, my dignity.

That's kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's the story of my life.

So anyway, I was saying I'm fine a lot and I was feeling

overwhelmed by

thoughts and feelings.

And I realized I need to, I've hit like some sort of rock bottom.

Okay.

And my eating was getting weird again.

And

I feel like I.

I would say your thoughts about eating.

Exactly.

Exactly.

It's like, it's like I,

you know, I'm, I've been recovering from an eating disorder since I was 10 or however you want to say that situation.

But I still, when things get stressful or weird, I still have unbelievably compulsive thoughts about food and body.

It's just, it's, I had hit rock bottom again with thoughts about eating and food.

And then I start thinking about things more.

And actually, I decided I had hit rock bottom with all thinking.

Like

I,

my life, you know, what you we say in, in, when we're recovering from alcoholism, we decide our life has become unmanageable.

Like, I truly got to the point where I was like, oh, my thinking has become completely unmanageable.

I, I live with a maniac in my brain.

Like,

it's not just the food.

It's everything.

It's the person in my mind is insufferable.

It's just, the person in my mind is upset about everything.

And I'm not talking about just the things it should be, like, you know, the things in the world, the things I am actively involved in in activism.

I wish I could tell you that the things I'm always upset about are political things.

They often are, they're also everything else.

In my house,

it's just like

it's whatever the opposite of toxic positivity is.

Yes, yes, yes.

It's like just manic and chronic.

Everything's intolerable.

Yes.

And if I, I'm telling you, if this person, sometimes I can think, I can listen to the voices in my head and I can think if this person came up to me on the street

and talked to me the way my head is talking to me right now.

I would

be so disgusted, appalled.

I would be scared.

I would assume this person needed help mentally.

I would think this person was completely paranoid, was completely like,

and yet this is the girl that I live with all the days.

And so

I

started talking to Abby about it.

And okay, so I have this epiphany.

And I'm going to say it, and it's going to sound so ridiculous and simple to you, but that's like what they always are to me.

I'm like Dory from Nemo.

Like I figure things out and then I forget.

And then it feels like an epiphany to me when I remember six months later.

So

I think I've spent so much time figuring out, trying to decide how do I get this voice in my head to stop obsessing about food and body?

How do I change my thinking?

Okay.

And

it's not going to work.

I'm just telling you, the part of me that's given up

is not wrong.

Okay.

I'm not giving up

becoming more peaceful, but I'm giving up my previous strategy.

which was to some kind somehow change or control my thoughts.

Okay.

Not going to happen.

So then I started thinking, okay,

if I can't change my thoughts,

then I have to freaking do that damn thing that everyone who's smart is always telling us to do, which is meditate, which I've done before in my life and it has fixed me before, but then I forget and stop doing it and then I lose it again.

Because

Meditation

is remembering that you actually are not your thoughts.

So it's not trying to control and change them.

It's dropping below them.

Like

you're the ocean, and there's always going to be these crazy waves on the top, which are these thoughts and thoughts and thoughts.

But that there's a place that you can be safe from yourself if you sink below them and just look up and say, oh, there are those waves again, but I'm down here.

I wouldn't say that it's like being safe from yourself.

I would say it was just like to be with yourself.

Like all of it is the same.

Like your thoughts are still there.

All of it is still you, your body, your consciousness,

your physical body.

And it's the same.

And honey, I think

the realization of what you're...

You are a.

You are inherently a philosopher.

You study,

you read,

you are conscious, you're in the world.

You are like one of the smartest people I've ever met.

And so, and you've been affirmed with your thinking mind.

You've been affirmed with the thoughts that you have in the books that you write, your number one New York Times bestseller, with this podcast and the way that you produce it.

Like, there are so many things in your life that have affirmed the thinking you and the thought you.

And I think what we are learning is that there is also suffering

that goes into the extraordinary amount that you then think about all the other components to your life.

And I think what we've learned is we can't think through some of these things.

Some of them we can, but we can't think through all of them.

It's at the neglect of, it's like with so much focus, you are your mind.

You are not exclusively your mind, right?

It's like at it sometimes living there

and never occupying the other things that are

just as much inherent to who you are, like your body and your soul and your all of that is, um,

it, it's important to be all of them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Maybe it's like it's a good time.

It's like a disco party with flashing lights and raging music.

And like, so it's good to stop in, but like not a good, the mind, my mind is not a good place to live all the time.

So,

so anyway, I'm telling you, I'm just saying it out loud, that I am starting

the meditation thing again.

Okay.

And I'm going to try

to

find a way to just live with a little more peace.

That's my goal.

I want to stay engaged in the world and my relationships and be okay with imperfection, but also

because we just have this one life and I want to be able to live it with some measure of peace and joy also.

So that's what I'm doing.

I just wanted to say it.

I'm doing the meditation.

And so far, it's been a freaking nightmare.

Okay.

I just sit there because it's like sobriety or something.

It's like, it's just really hard at first.

And you're so out of touch with any measure of peace that it's very hard to

start again.

But I'm going to stick with it.

Well, can I just say one thing too?

You also

have created beautiful, beautiful worlds inside of yourself.

Beautiful worlds that you live among.

And sometimes what's going on inside your head is

more interesting and more

beautiful than what is actually going on out here.

So

I think it's going to be even harder for you because you are this creative artist and philosopher that have this beautiful thing going on inside of you.

But I think in order to manage all of that, being able to find some stillness,

I mean, look, I don't think I've had one moment of quiet during the five days that we've been meditating.

Literally.

I'm just like thought, thought, thought, thought, thought.

Oh, there's a thought.

There's a thought.

So I just think

it's admirable.

It's heroic what you're trying to do because I know how much you value your own inner world.

So I just think it's really, really cool.

And

there is a letting go of control here that I know is going to be really tough.

Oh,

thank you.

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Okay, let's jump into our cues from our pod squad.

I love hearing from them so much.

Do we have a voicemail first?

We do, we do.

My name is Alexandra.

Hi,

Glennon and Abby and sister.

Glennon was talking about how she

almost didn't go to the event where she ended up meeting Abby and how she called sister and

ended up going.

And I know in her book, she talks a lot about finding your inner knowing and listening to it.

How can you tell the difference between anxiety

and like your intuition and like your inner knowing and like what you need in your body versus just like anxiety thoughts?

I don't know.

I don't know whether or not that was anxiety or something else I don't mean to project, but um

it just got me thinking about this question anyway uh it's always a hard question and uh thought it was worth calling and asking about thanks

I also have Alexandra's question so yes I also do someone please

I mean seriously Alexandra

it is like all the voice is so strong but I feel I feel like this has something to do do with what you were talking about on the last brave episode about

the deepest knowing is unexplainable and can't be put into words.

And it's just almost like a

gravity or it's like for me, anxiety.

My anxiety voice is always a voice.

Okay, it has so many words.

My anxiety voice is always words.

It's, it's arguing with me.

It's this, this, this, it's, but, but this, it's, but this.

It's a million fears.

It's a million reasons.

It's defenses.

It's, it's.

And my knowing

has no words.

And so how do I explain to you in words something that has no words?

I don't think I have to because you probably already know what I mean.

It's just like...

It's the thing below the words that already knows what to do,

but your anxious mind's trying to talk you out of the thing that you know to do.

And we can just choose to live in our anxiety mind for years and ignore the knowing.

And that's where like

all of our problems come, right?

Like the Abby and I always talk about all of our life is trying to like shorten the distance between the knowing and the doing

because

everything between the knowing and the doing is all the anxiety that's trying to talk us into not doing the thing we know to do.

So there's that.

And then there's this whole other side that I thought of

when Alexander was asking that question, which is

this idea of intuition.

Like if we're always following how we feel, how do we know?

Okay, here's, here's, here's what I want to, I want to give you this scenario.

What about

we're walking down the street?

I'm a white woman and I'm walking down the street and two black men in hoodies are walking towards me.

Okay.

And I feel scared.

So they do something, you know, something human, who knows?

They just are walking, being black maybe.

And I feel scared.

So I called the police.

Right?

What I will say to you, and what these, what continues happening is the person who called the police, the white woman says, well, I was afraid.

I'm not racist.

I was afraid.

And the question, the next question becomes, well, what if that fear is racist itself?

Yes, you are afraid.

But the reason you're afraid is because we've been conditioned in this,

drenched in these ideas that black men are dangerous.

Like, how do we know what is our real knowing and what is just our conditioning?

Like, I, have I been conditioned to be afraid of black men?

Why wouldn't I be afraid of a white men?

I've only been hurt in my life by white men.

If I'm going by my experience,

the only people who have ever hurt me are white men and white women.

So then, why am I more afraid, my instinct to be afraid of two black men in hoodies?

That's because of my conditioning.

What if our intuition is racist and misogynist?

And, you know, what if I can't trust myself sometimes because that woman starts talking and is bold and ambitious and my first response is i don't like her

that is not the self that i want to be trusting

so i guess i'm not sure that i i have a a perfect answer for that i just know that i had a friend say to me recently you know, it took me 45 years to start trusting myself.

And now I figured out that my self is racist and misogynist and islamophobic and like

there's another level

of

examining our reactions right our knee-jerk reactions and questioning them i think we have to keep questioning until we get to the root that is not just conditioned

so good and it's not just this kind of systemic bias that is through us.

It's also, you know, all of our own histories and our traumas and our fears that are some, that are so internalized in us that they sound exactly like our own voice.

You know, the repeating, it is, it's definitely coming from you, but is it for you?

It's like for me, I feel like we need to do a trauma episode because there is so much that our body stores, literally stores in us in terms of like unprocessed stress and memories and these patterns that we keep repeating.

And for me, it's, I feel like, I feel like it's just like all the time the voice is screaming at me, but it's like,

it's just like shitty covers of tired songs.

It's not my original work, right?

Yeah.

So I think that it's like, is that a cover of a song you've heard before?

Or is that original songwriting from you it's like oh i love that i love that so much i i think like

i mean i it's so good it feels to me because when i feel myself having to decide between my anxious mind or like the the mean self i think what would my five-year-old self sound like like down the road And that gives me a lot of insight, right?

And also, Glennon, something that we all, and I think we've told the listeners this before if you're having like a trying to figure this out i i would say get into your body instead of your mind and and feel into what feels more warm or cold that's something that we actually are teaching our children so that we don't actually because then we're just victims to our mind and who the is that who is our mind some mess in there is it the is it our best self or is it this cover band we talk of yes it's just a bunch of covers Sister, I'm obsessed with that metaphor.

It's just a bunch of covers.

It's like, you know, recently somebody said to us, you know, I just,

I just, I want to, you know, embrace the gay community.

It just, it just feels wrong to me.

Like I can't get around how much wrong it feels.

Now, of course, this person was raised in the evangelical church.

Like that, that's not God putting that in her.

It's like this cover that's playing over and over again from the church.

But bless her, she thinks that she was born feeling that.

And she's correct that it is in her.

Like, that's the difference.

Like, you can't just say everything from inside of you is of you.

No.

It's very, yeah.

Yeah, there's work.

There's all kinds of work to be done there tragically.

I just want to ask, because we ended the last episode where you asked everyone as their next right thing to say the bravest thing they've ever done.

But you never, neither of you told us your bravest thing.

Well,

I think like my

knee jerk would always be about like the second part of my life, the work or the marrying Abby or the publicly divorcing or any of that.

But I actually don't, I think the bravest thing I ever did was in high school.

So

I was, let's see, I think I was a senior in high school,

which means that I had been

severely bulimic at that point, but for, let's see, 10, 11, 12, like six years or something, six or seven years.

And I

was, I was holding a tray, walking into the cafeteria or walking out of the, out of the line.

Remember the lunch lines?

Like you go through, you get your food.

And I was standing there with my tray, my plastic tray, looking out at the cafeteria, the high school cafeteria.

Now, what you need to know about my high school cafeteria, which sister knows, but it was ginormous.

Our school had like 6,000 kids in it or something.

And so

the high school cafeteria was

just

massive.

And

I don't know if there's anything in the world

that scares me more than a high school cafeteria.

Like, I just think that

it's like the pit of hell to me.

It's like all of the horrifying vulnerability just intertwining.

Like,

who are you?

Social stuff, like, who are you going to sit with?

Like, where is anyone going to want you at their table?

Like,

the cool kids, the jucks, the whatever, like the

social

drama of it.

And then, like, the lights in the cafeteria.

It's just like so bright.

Like, there's no hiding anything.

It's just all, you're just standing there in all of your selfness while everyone just looks at you holding your tray of food, which you're going to have to somehow in this insanely vulnerable situation, eventually put in your mouth and chew, which is like so human and terrifying.

And it's just all like high school.

It's just,

oh,

so

I actually used to often, and my kids feel so sad when I, when I talk about this, but I used to actually sometimes take my tray into the bathroom just because

just it was too much, just the cafeteria was too much.

So I would just take my tray into the bathroom, eat, throw up, whatever.

So I'm sitting in the bathroom.

No, I never made it to the bathroom that day.

I'm standing in the cafeteria having this moment of hell.

And I'm just like,

fuck this.

I'm a senior in high school.

I take my tray.

I walk to the guidance counselor's office.

I don't think I'd ever been there before.

I knock on her door.

I stick, I walk and I put my tray on her desk.

And I said, I

have a mental problem.

And I can't be here anymore.

I need to go somewhere else.

Like, I can't do life

like this.

anymore.

I'm not.

And I remember saying, I'm not leaving here

until somebody helps me.

Like, I can't be at this place anymore.

And

I don't know what chain of events happens next.

I just remember refusing to leave.

And then I remember mom and dad showing up at the school and taking me to the mental hospital.

That

is

so fucking brave.

I mean, I am not leaving here until I get the help I need.

This, I'm not going to live like this anymore.

I mean, you could pretty much put like 90%

of the brave things

in the world into one of those two camps.

Yes.

I am not going to live like this anymore.

And I am not leaving here

until I get the help that I need.

Or if I don't get the help I need, I'm definitely going to leave here.

Yes, exactly.

That's exactly it, right?

And by the way, this counselor, I'm like, I'm 16 or whatever.

I don't freaking know what that help is.

That's your job, right?

Parental unit.

Y'all get paid.

There's three of you between mom, dad, and y'all.

You should be able to figure this out.

I'm going to take my milk carton.

I'll be in the other room.

Exactly.

That's how i felt and also it was the first

big

i cannot emphasize enough the importance of that this part of it so much of my life has been like

no to this

like i it was my first big quit

Like, yes, I am now a senior.

I have been doing this thing for a long time.

I understand that everyone else seems to think that this is normal, this way of life, this Lord of the Flies high school situation.

Everyone seems, I've been playing your reindeer games for a long ass time now.

Yeah.

But just because it's common doesn't mean it's normal.

It's good.

I think I heard Ashley Ford say that recently.

I think it was Ashley Ford.

Just because everyone's doing it doesn't mean it's sane or normal.

So it was my first, the bravery of it for me was like, I don't care if this is working for everyone else.

Like that no longer matters to me what i'm telling you is that it is not working for me it's good

so like maybe the mental hospital will be better like that is

that and ps it was

okay

but it was my first big quit of i'm not doing it the way y'all are doing it anymore And even those of you who are pretending to be the boss of me,

well, that you're just,

I'm sitting here and I'm not leaving.

Yes.

Yes.

I'm not,

I'm, I'm not going to be making this convenient for you anymore.

Like, I'm going to be very inconvenient right now.

You had your own

sit-in.

Yes, I did.

It was my sit-in, babe.

It was.

And it was like, I don't know.

I bet that's not going to look good for your school if there's a 16-year-old who keeps yelling that she needs to go to the mental hospital here.

I mean, do you think that's what it boils down to?

Do you think that Brave

is

acting

as if you are the expert of you?

Yeah.

That like you, and that's why it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to look like monumental to any damn body else.

It's just like these can be these little things that are like even imperceptible to others, but you're like, this

yes to this thing, no to this thing.

Like, I

am the expert of me and I know.

Yes.

And I'm not going to adjust myself anymore to fit into your way.

For right now, y'all are going to adjust to what I'm telling you.

Or don't.

But don't.

This is what I'm doing.

Right.

But, but when you're a child, it's like, I had those resources, right?

Like, I had, I was in a public school that had counselors.

I had parents who would show up.

Like, the thing that makes it so impossible to be brave when you're a child is that you can be yourself and nobody can freaking adjust and you're just screwed.

Well, but that happens to adults all the damn time.

Yeah.

How many marriages are you sitting around?

Like, I'm miserable.

Surely they'll notice.

Like as many people are listening to this saying, why did it take Glennon?

to have to go into that counselor's office and get the help she needed.

Why didn't her parents come help her?

Great question.

Also, how many of my years have I sat in a marriage going, I'm pretty sure I seem miserable enough.

Surely, surely he's going to notice and start doing the things that need to be done.

Surely he's going to, like, no, we are the only experts at us.

We are the ones responsible for us.

We are the ones who require the words to be said.

Here's what I need.

Here's what I need no more of.

Here's what I am doing next.

You can come this way or not, but here's what I know about me.

That's good.

Brave is being believing in being that you are the expert of yourself and your own needs and wants.

That's amazing.

Love it.

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Okay, brave pod squad, it is time to move on to our pod squatter of the week.

This is one of our favorite parts.

You have to know.

We go through so many of your stories, and we actually wish we could choose 50 pod squatters of the week.

But today's is our friend, Charlene.

Babe, can you read Charlene's letter to us?

It's so fantastic.

Oh, gosh, we love Charlene.

All right.

Dear Glennon, Amanda, and Abby, hello, amazing ladies.

I want to thank you for this amazing amazing podcast and the work and love that has gone into creating this community.

I listened to your podcast on my drive to work and sometimes before bed.

I realized I missed your episode on queer freedom and I'm laying in bed listening to the glorious words and want to share my decision to no longer be a member of my church.

Hallelujah to that, sister.

I have a sister too.

one that I have loved my whole life, but our relationship has never been steady.

We have butted heads over the years and for so long, she seemed distant.

We never seemed to be meeting each other where we already were.

Then, last year, things changed.

My sister called me to tell me about her girlfriend.

I had never heard my sister this happy in my 29 years on this earth.

When I saw them together, it just made sense.

This was who my sister was.

No hiding, no masks.

She had never seemed more comfortable with herself.

Her being the bravest cheetah I knew and her being her true, authentic self brought my sister back to me.

So I'm laying here listening to your podcast about how you decided to walk away from your church to make sure your children were not tarnished by their opinions.

My husband and I wanted to have kids in the next few years, and all I can think is, how can I encourage my future children to be members of a church that would close the door on their amazing aunt?

If I keep staying as a member, I am sitting and saying nothing in hope something will change.

Out of guilt to parents and community, I've stayed a member, but I realized tonight exactly what you said, Glennon.

The church is not God.

I am not walking away from God.

God is always with me.

I am just leaving the building.

The building will not define my future or my children's future.

The building no longer has the power to encourage homophobia and and hatred in my family.

Thank you for the work you do.

You inspire so many and all my love to you and your families.

Oh my gosh.

Charlene.

Babe, is Charlene your favorite now?

Yes.

Can you call?

I want to just send her my number.

Charlene.

Okay.

That's so fantastic.

And also, I just want to read this one real quick.

This is from Becky.

Dear Glenn and Sister and Abby, I've listened to your queer freedom freedom in the church episode no less than 10 times.

My husband has listened a few times too.

I have had all those feelings for so long but did not know how to articulate them.

Thank you for giving me the words.

My next right thing was scheduling a meeting with my pastor to ask some tough questions.

I asked him to listen to the podcast and we're going to talk about it.

I refuse to be a stone thrower, let poison sink into my child, and be in a place that lets homophobia live.

We can do hard things.

Oh, Becky.

I just want to you know point out

the different approaches but both brave and beautiful from charlene and becky you know one left the institution one is challenging the institution from within and both are such brave beautiful decisions

love so great love becky charlene you're our favorites this week let us go forth pod squatters and be like Becky and be like Charlene

and be ourselves.

Let's be brave.

Let's sit in the, what did we call it?

Lonely clarity.

Let's live this week as if we are the experts of our own selves and our own lives.

And thank God we can do hard things because that will be hard.

We love you.

We'll see you next week.

We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios.

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