32. BEING BRAVE: What does it take to REALLY be Brave?

Speaker 1 One thing I love about our listeners is how industrious all of you are. The stories we hear about you guys going off on your own and starting your own ventures like we did, it's truly inspiring.

Speaker 1 It's a big part of why NetSuite came to us as a sponsor. NetSuite offers real-time data and insights for so many business owners, and by that I mean over 42,000 businesses.

Speaker 1 NetSuite offers the number one AI-powered cloud ERP. Think of it as a central nervous system for your business.

Speaker 1 Instead of juggling separate tools for accounting here, HR there, inventory somewhere else, NetSuite pulls everything into one seamless platform.

Speaker 1 That means you finally have one source of truth, real visibility, real control, and the power to make smarter decisions faster.

Speaker 1 With real-time data and forecasting, you're not just reacting to what already happened, you're planning for what's next.

Speaker 1 And whether your company is bringing in a few million or hundreds of millions, NetSuite scales with you.

Speaker 1 It helps you tackle today's challenges and chase down tomorrow's opportunities without missing a beat.

Speaker 1 Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com/slash hard things.

Speaker 1 The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/slash hard things.

Speaker 1 Netsuite.com/slash hardthings.

Speaker 1 We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 1 to places they've never been.

Speaker 2 Hi, everybody. You came back to We Can Do Hard Things.
Thank you for coming back. We also came back because this is our favorite thing.
We absolutely love meeting you here every week.

Speaker 2 We're going to start today's episode, which is all about what in the hell brave actually means

Speaker 2 with a story. I have a story, which is a beautiful story about a man.

Speaker 1 I know, right?

Speaker 2 It's exciting because, you know, sister, I have heard in the ether,

Speaker 2 people suggest that perhaps I don't like men.

Speaker 2 And that is not true. Okay.
It is not true that I don't like men. Okay.
Here's the situation for me. The situation for me is that I love humans.
I love human beings.

Speaker 2 I feel like we're born with all of this, you know, unique, wild energy and love and potential. And then this thing happens on the earth where we are given these roles.

Speaker 2 You know, you're a male, you're a boy, you're a girl. And we're given, along with our roles, we're given these scripts and these costumes and these ways of being.

Speaker 2 And like to the point where you all know, you too know, sometimes when I'm out in the world, I'm looking around going, oh my God, what is happening?

Speaker 2 Why are we all acting like this, looking like this, dressing like this?

Speaker 2 What are we doing? It's like we're all in a, on a, the whole world is a stage, right?

Speaker 2 And so what I don't like, and I'm willing to admit, is that I don't like,

Speaker 2 I am allergic to who men are conditioned to become in our culture. Not who they are,

Speaker 2 but like the man act.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 The man act that the poor humans who have been labeled men are stuck inside. okay like the matrix

Speaker 2 so what this act involves to me what i see the act being in the world is like just you know

Speaker 2 walking no yield there is no yield in the man act and what i mean by that is there is no yield on the sidewalk oh god if you are in if you are in this i mean abby knows i've tried to walk in our town and not yield to the men i literally have a bruise on my left shoulder

Speaker 2 you you cannot

Speaker 2 they walk as if

Speaker 2 there is no need to yield at any point.

Speaker 1 Well, and when you, when you actually do rub shoulders with somebody, a man,

Speaker 1 and you take like a hit, I'm like, how is that? You're like, oh, it hurts.

Speaker 1 I know, I don't know. But I stood my ground.

Speaker 2 I know. And then they look at me as if I am that shit crazy, like, as if I am so rude to not have moved,

Speaker 2 but they did not move, right? It's so confusing. So, and then that, that no yield, it's the entitlement of the talk time.

Speaker 2 You know, in a meeting, the man act says you must speak for 80% of the time. The man act says on a airplane, you must spread your arms and legs over to the other side.

Speaker 2 The man act. And then, and by the way,

Speaker 2 in fairness, I want to tell you that I am equally allergic to the woman act.

Speaker 2 of which I have been conditioned. Okay.

Speaker 2 Because we are,

Speaker 2 so I'll give you an example of the way I cannot stand my woman conditioning. Okay.
So I'm at a grocery store a while back and I'm standing with one of my kids and this

Speaker 2 human being who has been conditioned to the man act is standing next to me in line. Okay.

Speaker 2 And because he has to stay in his role, he is, you know, approaching me, coming very closely.

Speaker 2 There's something with the man act that thinks that men who walk by women are are supposed to put their hands on our waist

Speaker 2 or our back.

Speaker 2 What in the Sam Hill is that?

Speaker 2 If you want to know if it's appropriate to put your hand on a woman's waist that you don't know when you're standing next to them in the grocery line, I want you to consider, men, if you in fact would put your hand on the small of a man's back standing next to you in the grocery line.

Speaker 2 And if the answer is no, then keep your hands to yourself. Okay.
Anyway, that had just happened.

Speaker 2 I was already prickly as all hell. And then

Speaker 2 the man

Speaker 2 said a joke that wasn't funny. It wasn't funny at all.
It was kind of entitled, kind of obnoxious, reeked of a little bit of.

Speaker 2 And sister, I want you to tell me what I did.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 I laughed.

Speaker 2 I laughed.

Speaker 2 At the man's terrible, semi-rude joke who had just put his hand on my back for no reason who I couldn't stand. Okay.

Speaker 2 I laughed at him because it is the woman's role in any situation to protect the male ego.

Speaker 2 I could not just, or I could have, I have been trained. Kate Mann in her new book called this Hympathy.

Speaker 2 We are trained to have so much sympathy for men that in that moment, I knew that my job was to make him comfortable,

Speaker 2 Even though he had just made me uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 So, so what I'm trying to say is that I do not like the acts. That's all I mean.
I don't like the toxic masculinity act.

Speaker 2 I don't like the toxic femininity act that just keep us on script and in our roles and keep us free from being whole and from being ourselves and from really seeing each other.

Speaker 1 Okay, that's all I mean.

Speaker 2 Now, onward to the beach story.

Speaker 2 All right, first, actually,

Speaker 2 I'm going to tell a shitty story about a man, but then I will get to the beautiful story about a man.

Speaker 3 In a development no one saw coming, Glennon's going to tell a shitty story about a man.

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 2 I need the juxtaposition.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 And also, it's just important. I feel it's important.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 Abby and I live by the beach now. It's amazing.
We go there a lot. And I'm sitting there.
I sit and read. Mostly all everywhere I am, it's just a different place to sit and read.

Speaker 2 Abby does things like in the water, surfing and such.

Speaker 2 So I'm sitting on the beach reading my book

Speaker 2 and I hear there's a family next to me and they are so sweet and they've got all these children and they're all having a good time. And then I see the dad turn around

Speaker 2 and look off in the distance. And he, his two children are approaching.
Okay. And the little boy looks like he's about eight and the girl looks like she's about 12 or 13.
Okay.

Speaker 2 And the girl is carrying,

Speaker 2 it's like a big game or something. She's carrying it over her head and she's, they're trying to get it to the family.
The man

Speaker 2 is so upset.

Speaker 2 He yells to his son,

Speaker 2 why are you letting her carry that?

Speaker 2 Why are you letting her carry that? Why don't you, like he's shaming him the whole way up for not carrying this heavy thing? Why are you letting a girl carry that?

Speaker 2 Why are you letting your cousin who's a girl carry that? And it's so loud and everyone's looking. And so they get closer.
And I am telling you that the man

Speaker 2 just, he brought the little boy and the girl over to the family. And he said, did you see what this, it was his son.
Did you see what my son just did?

Speaker 2 He just let his cousin carry this thing all the way over. This boy let this girl carry this thing all the way over.
And it was just this very intense. And you guys,

Speaker 2 you humans,

Speaker 2 I was sitting there watching this little boy's face.

Speaker 2 Also watching this girl's face, watching the rest of the little, of the children in the family's faces.

Speaker 1 And all I could think of was,

Speaker 2 This is where boys start to hate girls.

Speaker 2 That was my thought. Because that little boy is being so humiliated by his father, but he can't hate his father.
That's not the role here.

Speaker 2 So, what's happening is that he is now hating this girl.

Speaker 2 The hate, the misogyny, right,

Speaker 2 begins there. It begins in this fake idea of what that dad would have considered chivalry.

Speaker 2 It's the chivalry, it is the flip side of misogyny.

Speaker 2 It's little boy, you are stronger than her.

Speaker 2 Right? Your job is to what? Protect her?

Speaker 3 I mean, well, her showing strength that exceeds yours in your presence is shaming to you.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 1 And also, it's teaching the little girl to hate herself. Yes.

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 1 he's saying to her, you are weak. And she's like, oh, I guess I'm not supposed to be carrying this stuff.
I'm not strong.

Speaker 2 Yep.

Speaker 2 All right. Fast forward a week or two later.
So I was in the grocery store, and

Speaker 2 this father next to me was talking to his daughter. And it's like the middle of the conversation.

Speaker 1 And the dad says, well, don't forget.

Speaker 2 I think they must have been planning to go to an amusement park the next day.

Speaker 2 The dad says, don't forget, honey, if you decide to go on the roller coaster, that's brave.

Speaker 2 But don't forget, if you decide not to go on the roller coaster and you tell us that you don't want to go on the roller coaster, that is brave too.

Speaker 2 And oh my gosh, you guys, I just,

Speaker 2 first of all, my first thought was, oh, he totally read Untamed.

Speaker 1 There's this story.

Speaker 2 And I'm still dying to find someone in the wild who's reading Untamed. It hasn't happened to me yet.
And I'm just waiting for that. Oh, really? Isn't that

Speaker 2 tactical?

Speaker 2 It makes me so sad. I'm like, I always secretly look at what everyone's reading my whole life.
That's my,

Speaker 2 I want to talk to everyone about their book. That's the only thing I want to talk to people, to strangers about is what they're reading.

Speaker 2 And some day I just want there to be someone reading untamed.

Speaker 1 So I can be like, oh, hey, I wrote that book, but it hasn't happened yet. Well, in all fairness, COVID happened.
So we weren't allowed to actually be outside.

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah. You haven't seen that many people.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I haven't seen that many people.

Speaker 2 But then, so I talked about this story, this roller coaster story on

Speaker 2 Instagram. And apparently there's a woman named Maria who wrote a children's book about a roller coaster and being brave.
So it wasn't about me at all.

Speaker 2 It was probably, they probably just read this roller coaster book.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 it made me want to talk about this idea that we have about being brave.

Speaker 2 Okay. And like what this word means.
We're all telling each other every day, be brave, be brave, be brave. We're telling ourselves to be brave.
We're telling our children to be brave.

Speaker 2 But what the heck are we telling them to do and be?

Speaker 2 Right. I want to discuss what we mean by the word brave.

Speaker 3 This is like the quitting episode where you have the very, very different

Speaker 3 records

Speaker 3 going on the record about it. And

Speaker 3 Abby's line

Speaker 3 is of the ilk, courage is feeling the fear and doing it anyway. And Glennon's is, whatever the hell this means,

Speaker 3 not doing the brave thing is often the bravest thing we can do.

Speaker 3 Put that in your pipe and smoke it, people.

Speaker 3 Not doing the brave thing.

Speaker 2 Okay, what does that make sense to me?

Speaker 2 That makes perfect sense to me.

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Speaker 3 Okay, so we're going to talk about brave. So, as per Yuzh, I'm going to tell you what the definitions are

Speaker 3 from the dictionary. And then we're going to talk about what they actually

Speaker 3 mean to us. Okay, so

Speaker 3 adjective and verb. Adjective,

Speaker 3 ready to face and endure danger or pain.

Speaker 1 Ooh.

Speaker 2 Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 Verb,

Speaker 3 endure or face

Speaker 3 unpleasant conditions or behavior without showing fear.

Speaker 2 Okay, that's such horseshit.

Speaker 1 I don't like that one. Without showing fear.

Speaker 2 The dictionary is wrong.

Speaker 2 And by the way, what I would like to suggest is that the dictionary is very patriarchal. Yeah.
That is so, that is such a ridiculous. definition of doing dumbass things while looking happy.

Speaker 1 I don't think that that's what it's saying. I don't think that's what it's saying.

Speaker 2 To endure or face unpleasant conditions or behavior. Okay, so I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 There's a wide definition of that.

Speaker 2 Who could have written that? Let's see. Who do we want to endure or face unpleasant conditions forever without showing their emotions? Right.
Everyone except for rich, powerful white men.

Speaker 1 I understand that this sounds very patriarchal. But

Speaker 1 I also think that we have to break into this definition because the way you define define some of the words inside the definition can determine kind of what your kind of brave is, you know, like

Speaker 1 fear and your, you know, I don't know. I just, the ability to endure something, unpleasantness, like Glennon, you're that your level of unpleasantness and mine is very different.
Our thresholds.

Speaker 2 So I still have my eye on Miriam. Webster, or whoever the hell wrote this.

Speaker 2 Also, okay, I want to present my case

Speaker 2 for why the dictionary and Abby are wrong.

Speaker 1 Okay. I'm just joking, love, but I'm not.
This is the story of my life.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 So a while back, like years and years ago, I got this precious email from this woman who was a mother. And she told me that she had just been to this family reunion.
Okay.

Speaker 2 So bless her heart right away. And she, they were at this like river or something.

Speaker 2 And they were, they were doing this activity where people were supposed to jump off this big rock into like a flowing crystal river, babe. It sounds like something you'd make me do, right?

Speaker 2 It's like this adventure, so to speak.

Speaker 1 I would never make you do, you would never do that.

Speaker 1 Correct. Whatever makes you do that.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 the woman was asking me about this moment that she had with her family, which was this.

Speaker 2 Her 11-year-old son,

Speaker 2 human who had been conditioned with the Boy man act, was standing at the top of this rock, okay, that everyone was supposed to jump off of.

Speaker 2 And the whole family was at the bottom of the rock, and they were all looking up at the sun. And the son was standing on the edge, looking over, preparing to jump.

Speaker 2 And this mother could see that the boy was terrified. Okay, that this was a crisis moment for him, that he did not want to jump.

Speaker 2 And the entire family from the bottom, except for this mom, started yelling up at the little boy.

Speaker 1 Come on, be brave, be brave, jump, jump, be brave, jump, jump.

Speaker 2 And she said,

Speaker 2 Why did that feel wrong?

Speaker 1 I don't know why, Glennon.

Speaker 2 Why did that feel wrong? Why did that moment feel so wrong to me? It felt so off. And here's

Speaker 2 what I think felt off.

Speaker 2 We have trained people to believe that the word brave means what you said, just feel the fear and then do it. Okay, that's what we tell our children.
Feel the fear, be afraid, and just do it anyway.

Speaker 2 Okay, that works for our four-year-olds.

Speaker 2 But what about when our kids turn 16 and they're getting in the car and they're driving away with their friends and they're telling us they're going to the movie, but they're really going to the keg or down the street.

Speaker 2 So, are we going to go to the car and say, Honey, tonight, I want you to be brave.

Speaker 2 And by that, what I mean is, if you feel afraid because any of your peers are doing anything that kind of makes you feel afraid, I want you to ignore that gut feeling and I want you to just do it anyway.

Speaker 2 Just do it anyway, because that's what brave is. No,

Speaker 2 that is not what brave is. Okay, to me, that little boy up on that cliff,

Speaker 2 if he looked inside himself

Speaker 2 and felt a knowing that said, this is not right for me.

Speaker 2 This is not the right thing.

Speaker 2 This is not for me right now.

Speaker 2 The bravest thing on earth for him to do would have been to look at his family and say, no.

Speaker 2 I'm not jumping.

Speaker 2 I'm not jumping because it's not right for me.

Speaker 2 Because

Speaker 2 the reason why that would have been brave is because brave is honoring the inner self and the inner knowing, even if it goes against all of the outer expectations of you. Being brave sometimes

Speaker 2 requires you to allow the whole world to think you're a coward.

Speaker 2 Jumping.

Speaker 2 Jumping because a bunch of other people yelled at you and told you to

Speaker 2 is not brave if all you're doing is cowering to the outer crowd's expectations of you instead of honoring yourself.

Speaker 2 If you're losing yourself to honor expectations, sometimes the bravest thing to do is the not brave thing. That's what I meant, sister.

Speaker 2 I knew what I was talking about, even though everything I say sounds like an enigma wrapped in a puzzle. What I meant was

Speaker 2 sometimes

Speaker 2 you are the only one who knows that you actually did the brave thing

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 2 because what you have done is honor the inner knowing that no one else can see and if it and it's brave it's bravest when that thing is the opposite of what the outer world is screaming at you is brave and what they will applaud for that requires the most courage to me yeah i hear that and i also think

Speaker 1 i don't think you're wrong glennon i really don't i think you make a strong case thanks babe but i i do have to say though that it is all going to be different and based on what each one of us value in life.

Speaker 1 You know, for instance, for me,

Speaker 1 the way that I was raised, the person that I am, is different than the way that you're raised and the person that you are.

Speaker 1 So our value systems of what we want to get out of life are just inherently different.

Speaker 1 And those shape and change as we go and walk through our lives. So I might, what you would call more, I might have what you would call a more patriarchal view of brave.

Speaker 1 I take more physical risks,

Speaker 1 sometimes bordering on the side of reckless, especially pre-sobriety.

Speaker 1 I don't really overthink much. I've gone skydiving.
I've done a lot of stuff that would be categorically

Speaker 1 patriarchal in the world, the way that we see and view bravery.

Speaker 1 But for me, that's what I value. I am, I am attracted to a kind of adrenaline of life, a kind of liveliness, something that I can feel and something that makes me feel something.
Right.

Speaker 1 So me standing on top of that cliff and my family yelling to me, jump, you can do it, right? Like that's support. That's not pressure.
Yeah. It's so fascinating.

Speaker 3 It's affirming your inner voice.

Speaker 1 That's exactly. Yes, this is exactly what I want.
Yeah. So if I could amend my quote of feeling the fear and doing it anyway, it's like

Speaker 1 being in line with what you value in your life and searching out some of those things that you fear to

Speaker 1 embrace or evolve towards or grow into

Speaker 1 and find out what your threshold level is of that fear, right? Like, don't like

Speaker 1 skydive if you're terrified of heights, right? That might not be something that you value.

Speaker 1 One thing I love about our listeners is how industrious all of you are. The stories we hear about you guys going off on your own and starting your own ventures like we did, it's truly inspiring.

Speaker 1 It's a big part of why NetSuite came to us as a sponsor. NetSuite offers real-time data and insights for so many business owners, and by that I mean over 42,000 businesses.

Speaker 1 NetSuite offers the number one AI-powered cloud ERP. Think of it as a central nervous system for your business.

Speaker 1 Instead of juggling separate tools for accounting here, HR there, inventory somewhere else, NetSuite pulls everything into one seamless platform.

Speaker 1 That means you finally have one source of truth, real visibility, real control, and the power to make smarter decisions faster.

Speaker 1 With real-time data and forecasting, you're not just reacting to what already happened. You're planning for what's next.

Speaker 1 And whether your company is bringing in a few million or hundreds of millions, NetSuite scales with you.

Speaker 1 It helps you tackle today's challenges and chase down tomorrow's opportunities without missing a beat.

Speaker 1 Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com/slash hardthings. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/slash hard things.

Speaker 1 Netsuite.com/slash hard things.

Speaker 2 okay so you still you feel

Speaker 2 the idea of brave is still very aligned with you with physical adventure of course yeah so and and i just think of it as something completely different right i don't that doesn't to me feel sometimes when people are doing all of these like wild physical adventures i just feel like you have a lot of time on your hands yeah but honey i just feel like it relates to it relates to like the inner world though it's not just about taking a physical risk it's It's about feeling something.

Speaker 1 It's about embracing or interfacing with the world in a way that you experience. Like experience for me is something I value.

Speaker 2 Do you think this is why you like scary movies too? It's like you're trying, your whole life, you're trying to feel something. And I, my whole life, am trying to feel less.
That's right.

Speaker 2 The last thing I need to do is go surfing because my inner world is a storm of waves.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah, but that's not true.
You feel, you access your feelings in a different way. You read 700 books and dive deeply into the characters of all of those and you're feeling all of that.

Speaker 3 That is your adventure. Abby is experiencing adventure and thrill in just a very different

Speaker 3 way than you are, but you are still accessing that stuff. You're accessing it through.

Speaker 3 through reading and thinking. And it's just a different level

Speaker 3 of buzz.

Speaker 2 That's true. And I would say that.
I would say that I feel like all of my adventures are internal and it works for me. It's

Speaker 1 probably, I mean, quite frankly, we've just gone through a week of stuff that I've realized that I'm a little bit more scared to do individual work.

Speaker 2 Internal stuff. Internal stuff.

Speaker 1 And so obviously that's like what I'm now leaning into. So it's just where we're at every single year, day, it's going to be different.

Speaker 3 Well, that's so funny about the bringing up internal because to me, that's the central part of what brave is. I think about that Jeremy Goldberg quote that said, that says,

Speaker 3 courage is knowing it might hurt and doing it anyway. Stupidity is the same.
That's why life is hard.

Speaker 3 Amen. Like, how do you know if it's stupid or brave?

Speaker 3 That's the whole thing. Like, it's like foolish and heroic look exactly the same on the outside.
That's right. Exactly the same.
Like you never know.

Speaker 3 And so for me, it's the bravest things, like the ones that really stir me in my heart when I see them are the ones that by definition are

Speaker 3 singular and externally inexplicable. It's like, it's like the words that are used to like surrounding brave, like pain and hurt and fear and fearlessness and boldness.
It's like those aren't,

Speaker 3 those don't resonate with me at what actually

Speaker 3 the most kind of like breathtaking bravery is. It's the singularity of the decision.
Not in action.

Speaker 3 It's like for me, it's the decisions that are made in the quiet, in your head or in your heart, where only you know whether it's brave or stupid. And

Speaker 3 I think that something is brave when you know that the people that

Speaker 3 love you or hate you, like they might be able to support you in your decision, but they can't ever

Speaker 3 confirm your decision for you.

Speaker 3 You know, it's like only you.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And that's why when we know it, when we see it, that's why when we know, because you're relying on only you. And in this world, when we have so much need to,

Speaker 3 you know, for affirmation, for support, for confirmation of everything that we're choosing, it's like to actually do an extraordinary thing where you

Speaker 3 know

Speaker 3 something and are doing something that by definition no one ever can understand.

Speaker 2 Oh my God.

Speaker 1 Is

Speaker 3 real. Like it's, it's just so, it's so bold.
And so it's like, this, that to me is why brave is just this like radical posture that says,

Speaker 3 I am,

Speaker 3 I, I will, I can, I won't, yes, no, and there's no explanation that can validate it. It's just you.

Speaker 2 I am

Speaker 2 obsessed with that. I do!

Speaker 2 That is so amazing and reminds me so much of the Georgia O'Keefe quote:

Speaker 2 that is,

Speaker 2 courage is making the unknown known.

Speaker 2 That really the bravest thing we can constantly do is just know ourselves deeply and then show ourselves in one way or another to the world, which is or to someone or to ourselves, which, sister, is what you were just getting at in some ways.

Speaker 3 And that's that's exactly it. Because it's it isn't the making it known by going around and explaining it forever.

Speaker 3 Because by definition, you can't ever explain it enough to make it be able to be rejected or affirmed. It's just that's why for me, the people who are

Speaker 3 like every trans person in the world to me is just so breathtakingly brave because they, it's no one can know what they are except for them. And then they just, in their

Speaker 3 way,

Speaker 3 they just

Speaker 3 make it known. And it would either have been that they were just

Speaker 3 knew it inside of themselves and never made it known their whole lives.

Speaker 2 I think that's why I have such an affinity. I don't want to say that I don't think it's probably true, but I don't want to say it, but I'll say it anyway.

Speaker 2 I don't like queer people better than straight people, but

Speaker 2 I kind of do. And I try to think about why that is, like why when I walk into a room, I always want to be with the queer people right away.
And I think it's because

Speaker 2 it's almost like I already know they've passed a brave litmus test. And I'm sure that the straight people have in the million ways too, but I just can't see it right away.

Speaker 2 Like, I know that the queer people have already, I can see that they've already made a decision to just live as who they are, even though the world's expectations maybe doesn't jive with it.

Speaker 2 So I already know we're like,

Speaker 2 I already have this like huge respect, I guess,

Speaker 2 right? Because I can see that decision right on them usually.

Speaker 1 Well, as a yeah, anybody, anybody in the marginalized community has had to do so much self

Speaker 1 analysis and uncovering that those are the kind of people we want to know anyway.

Speaker 2 Tell us about your story, about your, when you finally made the unknown known

Speaker 2 to the world. It's one of my favorites.

Speaker 1 I think that, you know, one of the things that you

Speaker 1 and I talk a lot about is these moments in our lives that not just changed us, but

Speaker 1 that were really difficult and were a struggle. And I guess I'll just take you back to like the late 90s

Speaker 1 and just talking about my own queerness and coming out story.

Speaker 1 You know, I watched Ellen DeGeneres

Speaker 1 come out publicly. This is during very formative years.
I was like 16, I think at the time.

Speaker 1 And she just got exiled. Like she just got sent off.
She got fired and could never get hired. And so

Speaker 1 even though people talked about it for a moment, her not getting hired and being like sent away from the fame world

Speaker 1 was news to me. It was like, oh, okay, so I can't do that.
Right? Like, can't come out. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, like, that's what was like entered into my subconscious from the time that I was a young teen coming into my own sexuality and my own

Speaker 1 sexual identity. So

Speaker 3 that was pre-macaroni grill, even.

Speaker 1 That was. That was, that was like a year or two before macaroni grill.

Speaker 1 But I think for me, one of the things that I attribute a lot of my strength from and bravery from is a former coach that I had. Her name is Pia Sundahag.

Speaker 1 She is Swedish and she came into my life. 2008.
So this is like, you know, 10 to 12 years after

Speaker 1 I was told

Speaker 1 subliminally that I needed to hide myself. And of course, I had come out to my family, to my friends, and the world in many ways, right?

Speaker 1 Like, so, so as a, as a, at the time, as a pro-athlete, as a pro-female athlete, one of the ways that I was able to make money other than just play the sport was endorsements.

Speaker 1 And in order to be

Speaker 1 as one of the

Speaker 1 faces, I guess, of women's soccer, in order to get more of those endorsements,

Speaker 1 I knew

Speaker 1 that I could not come out publicly

Speaker 1 so as to not lose chance at more financial

Speaker 1 independence. And that is the truth.
I was terrified.

Speaker 2 And also, you've told me that you already didn't match the look. that those endorsers wanted, right? They wanted the ponytails.

Speaker 2 They wanted the very, you know, femme look, and you are ready, we're not that. That's right.
So you've,

Speaker 1 yeah. Yeah.
I definitely was afraid of being completely

Speaker 1 in the

Speaker 1 zone of, oh, that is, I mean, even though I'm sure that I presented gay, I was like really trying hard for like the corporate world to be like straight passing.

Speaker 1 Right. So like, right, you know, I had a ponytail for a while that I just like, look at me, I'm wearing earrings.
Yeah, yeah, that's right. Or like, look at a different world back then.

Speaker 1 It was a different world. Yeah, it was.
Look at me. I'll let you even put makeup on my face.

Speaker 2 Oh, God help us.

Speaker 1 I mean, there were seriously campaigns that I am so embarrassed about. And I remember feeling so uncomfortable during those shoots

Speaker 1 just because I needed the money. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I just thought this is the only thing that corporate America accepts, right? So or America. Or America, right?

Speaker 1 Or the the world right or america

Speaker 1 america inc so in walks pia

Speaker 1 uh into my life and

Speaker 1 you know i had never really met a woman who was so uniquely themselves um you know she played this our very first meeting with our team she played a song these times are changing and like at the time our team kind of took itself a little probably a little bit too seriously like we are usa and like

Speaker 1 you know

Speaker 1 jamming the flag in the ground of every room we walked into and beating our chest.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's who we are. And she walked in and she's a Swedish woman who's completely herself in every, in every shoe she puts on, in every room she walks into.

Speaker 1 It was so fascinating. And I just remember feeling like in this, in this moment of this song, like this, she didn't alter herself when

Speaker 1 obviously the moment gets awkward when she's like just playing a freaking

Speaker 1 right yeah like playing a bob dylan song in front of us us in the serious people in a americans i'm like who the hell is happening our folk song gonna win gold yeah that's right that's exactly what we all thought and then like she didn't stop

Speaker 1 and so this awkward moment became unawkward because we became I don't know, we all were like, we were sitting back, like looking at each other like, this is a horrible experiment gone wrong.

Speaker 1 and then as the end of this song kind of came to us we just like all were leaning forward and we had never seen a woman operate in such a strong way and so she invited us into a higher sense of ourselves and yes she was gay and yes i had never seen a gay woman be so confident in their own skin And so this was the first time that I was given permission, I guess.

Speaker 1 Like, you know how they say, like, if you see it, you can be it. And then I watched her, I witnessed it.

Speaker 1 And I, and I spent time studying her and watching the way that she acted and watching the way that she walked. And

Speaker 1 I guess it was just like a couple of years later, because she, she was such a great coach. And she stayed on as a coach for many years for our team.

Speaker 1 It was in 2011.

Speaker 1 She came up to me at the very first camp that year and she just looked at me square in the eyes and she said, Abby Wambach. And I I was like, Pia.

Speaker 1 She said, Best player in the year, 2011. And then she just walked away.

Speaker 1 And I was like,

Speaker 1 huh?

Speaker 1 And it was like this very subtle thing. And every single camp,

Speaker 1 every single camp, the first time I would see her, she'd go, Abby Wambach.

Speaker 1 Best player in the year 2011. And for those of you non-sporty folks,

Speaker 1 every year there are best players awarded from FIFA, FIFA, which is the world's governing body of soccer.

Speaker 1 And so this was obviously PIA's goal for me. And I had never even, that wasn't, that's never been something that was on my mind.

Speaker 1 And this was the year that

Speaker 1 actually, in fact, my life changed in many ways because

Speaker 1 we had a World Cup in Germany that year, 2011. And I remember,

Speaker 1 you know, this is

Speaker 1 an eight to nine month process of building where you're, where you're intensely practicing and with each other

Speaker 1 every single day. You're on the road for over 200 days that year.
And then you find yourself in Germany. And Pia all year has been telling me, Abby Wambach, 2011 player of the year, right?

Speaker 1 And so I'm like, what am I going to do? And every lead up to every tournament, you try to like, you try to do something that like gets you in the zone, that, that

Speaker 1 puts you in this

Speaker 1 place, like the flow, as we like to call it in sports. And I decided, okay,

Speaker 1 I'm going to cut my hair.

Speaker 1 And I remember, I'll never forget it. I went to this European shop, this European haircutting salon, and they cut my hair.

Speaker 2 And can I just stop and say what

Speaker 2 I want the listener to be thinking right now is that this was a huge making the unknown known for you

Speaker 2 because you were deciding to cut your hair

Speaker 2 uh in a gay way how do we say yeah how do we how you were gaying up your head i was going to match my insides with my outsides completely yes you were finally gonna just take off that ponytail and just be you were gonna come out and own it it was your way of coming out right it was it was really this is pre-abbi wombach hair that everyone has now i was gonna say

Speaker 3 it's like, yeah, it's like, it's like

Speaker 3 BC. It's like, it's before

Speaker 3 there was

Speaker 3 the iconic

Speaker 3 Abby Wombach and all of the progeny that has followed. Exactly.
There was no. Abby Wombach haircut.
Yeah. Exactly.
There was just another ponytail in a sea of ponytails.

Speaker 1 And I mean, listen.

Speaker 2 And nobody could tell her whether that was the right or wrong decision. This was an unconfirmable or unpullable decision, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I just had to like do something to step into myself completely. And I feel like, and I didn't know it at the time, how

Speaker 1 emblematic this would be

Speaker 1 for the whole of this actual tournament and for the literal rest of my life. It was like, this was the thing that was blocking me from becoming the player that I.
ended up becoming.

Speaker 1 I mean, truly, I know that this sounds ridiculous, but sometimes when we allow ourselves,

Speaker 1 when we allow our inner selves to match our outer selves, everything becomes aligned.

Speaker 1 And this is the year that I scored that wild goal, that we scored that wild goal against Brazil in the 122nd minute.

Speaker 1 And truly, my life completely changed because of that moment. And I absolutely believe with all every fiber of my being that that moment doesn't happen if I have a different hair cut.

Speaker 3 Like truly.

Speaker 3 Totally. No, totally.
Because

Speaker 3 you're letting go everything you said about passability, about I can still revert to this lane if I need to.

Speaker 3 You know, you stuck yourself out of that lane completely and said, I am standing on this ground. That is my ground.
Like whether it crumbles or not, I have, I am.

Speaker 3 flag in the

Speaker 3 in the ground right here where I stand. And

Speaker 2 and that's why this is me. Here I am.

Speaker 1 And that's why I think it's so important

Speaker 1 that we have people in our lives that we want

Speaker 1 to learn how to become our best selves from. Now, they're not going to be the ones that do the work, but Pia,

Speaker 1 this coach, was this symbol for me of what was possible, watching her go through her world. And it took me years to get the courage or bravery to step into my full self with this haircut.

Speaker 1 I mean, and you should have seen me, by the way.

Speaker 1 Minutes after I got my haircut, I was freaking out.

Speaker 1 Of course. And my teammates were like, they could see it on my eyes.

Speaker 1 I mean, I had tears in my eyes. I was like, I think I ruined it.
I think I've gone and messed up my whole life. But the irony is, if I actually could draw all of the goodness in my life,

Speaker 1 I think I can like literally point it to like this one simple choice that opened the doorway for me to be able to walk into a higher, bigger, more purposeful version of my life and myself.

Speaker 1 And by the way, I didn't win Player of the Year 2011.

Speaker 1 I won it in 2012. Hey!

Speaker 1 Hey!

Speaker 2 And I love that, you know, I think the most awesome people in our lives are the ones who, it's not like we want to be them, they just make us want to be us. Yes, like there was no part of Pia.

Speaker 2 You didn't look at Pia and say, I also want to be Swedish and play guitars in the locker room. Like, but her showing her unknown made you want to show your unknown.

Speaker 2 And those are the best teachers, right? That just make us want to be more ourselves. Because I remember you saying to me, I'm not going to get this right.
So, correct it, but you,

Speaker 2 you know, going through the process of watching Pia and that making you feel freer to be you

Speaker 2 made you think about your place in that line.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 what if you being freer about who you are and your sexuality and your gender identity and all of it would inspire for all kids watching the freedom that Pia inspired in you?

Speaker 2 So then we go from I can't be myself because it will hurt people

Speaker 2 to the truth, which is I can't not be myself because it will hurt people.

Speaker 1 That's right. That's right.
It's a really beautiful switch just to think of it like that because sometimes

Speaker 1 we can't be brave enough with our own lives because it's so fucking scary.

Speaker 1 But like sometimes it's actually it helps to think about a little kid or the little you or the little child who could help or who could be helped by some action you could take.

Speaker 1 And that could be the courage or the bravery that we need or like the the thing that pushes us to do that or uncover the unknown as george o'erkeef would say i mean i think about you know how terrified i was to come out to the kids right and then

Speaker 2 i would have said to myself i can't do this because it will hurt them right or anything different is scary as a parent and then i think about one of our kids coming out

Speaker 2 a year later,

Speaker 2 you know, and what possible freedom, what I thought would hurt them.

Speaker 3 And that's why the the boldness, it's like the

Speaker 3 boldness for me isn't about the action itself. It's just about the boldness has to do with the boldness of

Speaker 3 being okay

Speaker 1 with only you

Speaker 3 knowing it, that it's right.

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 and that to just circle back to the definitions, do you know the origin of the word brave? It comes from

Speaker 3 the Italian bravo, which is bold, and the Spanish bravo,

Speaker 3 which is

Speaker 2 untamed. Oh,

Speaker 1 oh, shut up. Yes.

Speaker 1 Stop it. How? Wow.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, okay, and just to bring this full circle, I just, that's what I was trying to get at.

Speaker 1 In the, in the, in the,

Speaker 2 it's like, oh, you're not crazy. You're a goddamn cheetah.
Like the weirdest, most unique, weird, wild things about you. Let it be known.

Speaker 3 Because if they're not untamed, you can do a bunch of shit that's bold.

Speaker 3 You can do bold stuff all day long, but it never, but it coming out of your taming, the bravery comes from the intersection of bold with untaped.

Speaker 2 That was what makes it real. Yeah.
Right.

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Speaker 2 So what we're trying to say, like if we get back to that kid on the

Speaker 1 rock.

Speaker 2 cliff too, whatever the hell thing I won't ever be on. Okay.

Speaker 2 It's not about the jumping or not jumping it's not about the outer thing that you do right it's not to do the thing or not but it's the inner choice to honor the self or not

Speaker 3 and i in that

Speaker 3 that's not even the one i see in that what i see is the mom who is like that's not right I can't explain it, but not in my family. We're not doing this.
Like, it is the, it's the,

Speaker 3 I'm not going to, I don't need to explain to all these people in my family why that isn't right, what's happening, but I'm going to say, nope.

Speaker 3 Yep. Not us.
Yes.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 Like I'm, you guys are a bunch of zookeepers right now, and I want my kid to stay free.

Speaker 2 By the way, I just want to say to all the parents right now, you never figure it out in the moment. Like, it's always you're like, that's not right.

Speaker 2 And then, eh, so we, it's okay to circle back with our kids like two weeks later and be like, okay, so here's the thing that happened.

Speaker 2 And, you know, it's not like any of us figure it out in the moment.

Speaker 1 I remember it's like we have to cover our basis.

Speaker 1 So if this moment does arise and you feel like that there might be what would be classified as a more patriarchal view of bravery coming out in people, jump, go, do it, do it.

Speaker 1 You can just cover the basis and be the person that says, or don't.

Speaker 2 Look inside yourself, find your truth.

Speaker 1 Look inside yourself and find your truth. Honor your knowing.
Like, you can say it, even though it might look quote unquote like patriarchally uncool, but that might be really helpful for that person.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Also, don't you think it's a little bit of like a false paradigm? Because we're always, if you, I just think, I just think as a society, we're always looking at the cliff.

Speaker 3 We're always looking at the rollers, we're looking at the roller coaster, and we're saying like, brave is doing that or not doing that. And I just feel like, what?

Speaker 3 I feel like y'all are looking for brave in all the wrong places. Wrong thing.
Like, it's just like, that is something that maybe is brave for some people.

Speaker 3 Maybe people give two shits about whether they jump or not. So it's like the brave, you only know brave in you.
You only know if you're brave is the like saying,

Speaker 3 I'm leaving this relationship or I'm staying in this relationship and my mom's not going to understand and my neighbors aren't going to understand, but I know what I need and I'm going to trust that that is enough.

Speaker 1 Or

Speaker 3 it's like my friend Dana, who is one of the bravest humans that I can imagine in the world. And she, at 39 years old,

Speaker 3 told us all that she needed to be a mother and she had a baby on her own, and she is raising that baby in the most beautiful way you can imagine. And, like,

Speaker 3 we are, we're there to support her. We can see what an amazing mother she is, but only she knew, only, only she could have known that.

Speaker 3 And,

Speaker 3 and I just,

Speaker 3 I just don't,

Speaker 3 it's those things, it's those, those moments you can look at in your life that are sometimes the loneliest.

Speaker 3 The loneliest,

Speaker 3 the loneliest clarity you can have

Speaker 3 are sometimes the bravest moments.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 Brave can feel a lot like lonely clarity.

Speaker 2 Damn, that rings true to me.

Speaker 2 Lonely clarity. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's so interesting because I feel like all of my brave is external. So, and I think I need to do so much more work on internal.
What is your haircut? Your haircut. Yes.

Speaker 3 I mean, Abby, do you think anyone, did you, did anyone on your team, anyone in the agencies that were representing you, any in your family that you could have made a pro-cons list that somebody else could have understood?

Speaker 3 Only you knew the significance of this seemingly very minor event in your life, which is to cut off some dead cells of your head.

Speaker 3 Like, but that only you knew how transformative that moment was for you stepping into your thing. That is lonely clarity.

Speaker 1 Right. Yes.
It was terrifying.

Speaker 2 I just want to say that. I don't know if anyone else is going to feel this way, but this is my favorite conversation so far.
I loved this so much.

Speaker 2 Next straight thing. Let's just think about what's the bravest thing we've ever done.

Speaker 2 And not necessarily looking for it in places that are we're expected to, like on cliffs and jumping out of airplanes. But like when in our lives have we really made something unknown known?

Speaker 3 And I would just add that it doesn't have to be something you've done. It doesn't have to be an action.
Like it can be the thing that you knew undeniably, but couldn't defend.

Speaker 1 Yes. Oh, that's good.
Ooh.

Speaker 2 And we want to hear him. I want to hear him.
Send us your voicemails right to us on the Instagrams.

Speaker 2 We're going to be back with you in two short days because we can't get enough of talking to you. So

Speaker 2 until next time, when it gets hard to be brave, don't forget we can do hard things. And also, more importantly, don't forget we can quit hard things every damn day.

Speaker 2 Love you so much. Talk soon.

Speaker 1 Bye.

Speaker 2 I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle.

Speaker 2 I walked through fire. I came out

Speaker 1 the other side.

Speaker 1 I chased desire, I made sure

Speaker 1 I got what's mine

Speaker 1 And I continue

Speaker 1 to believe

Speaker 1 That I'm the one for me

Speaker 1 And because I'm mine,

Speaker 1 I walk the line

Speaker 1 Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on map A final destination

Speaker 1 we lack

Speaker 1 We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 1 to places they've never been

Speaker 1 And to be loved, we need to be known

Speaker 1 We'll finally find

Speaker 1 our way back home

Speaker 1 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 1 that our lives

Speaker 1 bring,

Speaker 1 we can do a hard thing.

Speaker 1 I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

Speaker 1 I'm not the problem.

Speaker 1 Sometimes things fall apart.

Speaker 1 And I continue to believe

Speaker 1 the best

Speaker 1 people are free.

Speaker 1 And it took some time,

Speaker 1 but I'm finally fine.

Speaker 1 Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

Speaker 1 A final destination we lack.

Speaker 1 We stopped asking directions

Speaker 1 to places they've never been.

Speaker 1 And to be loved, we need to belong.

Speaker 1 We'll finally find our way back home.

Speaker 1 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 1 that our lives

Speaker 1 bring,

Speaker 1 we can do a hard thing.

Speaker 1 Adventures and heartbreaks on that.

Speaker 1 We might get lost, but we're okay with that. We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 1 in some places

Speaker 1 they've never been.

Speaker 1 And to be loved, we need to be known.

Speaker 1 We'll finally find

Speaker 1 our way back on.

Speaker 1 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 1 that our lives

Speaker 1 bring,

Speaker 1 we can do hard

Speaker 1 things.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we can do hard things.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we

Speaker 1 can do

Speaker 1 hard

Speaker 1 things.

Speaker 2 We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 2 Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it.
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