22. REAL TALK: How can we begin to use conversation as a key to unlocking each other?

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And to be loved, we need to know.

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

I am so grateful that you're back here.

The main reason I'm grateful is that I really love recording this podcast.

I get to have these great conversations with my favorite people on earth, Abby, Amanda, and all of you.

And I get to do it without leaving my house.

That's why I became a writer, you know.

I've spoken about this to all of you before,

but you know that I am a highly sensitive introvert, okay?

And so what that means is that I love

people,

but not in person.

Okay.

I

feel deeply for you and for me and for the whole world.

I would die for you, but I would not

like meet you for coffee.

Okay.

The way this

manifests in my life is that I love humanity,

but actual humans are tricky for me.

Okay.

And

one of the major reasons that humans are tricky for me is what we are discussing today.

Okay.

Abby has heard me discuss this world problem incessantly.

Okay.

And the problem is this: every time I go out into the world,

it strikes me freshly that everyone is talking and nobody is listening

to each other ever.

Okay.

Every

circle of people

who are purporting to have a conversation are actually behaving as if they're in some kind of like

ultimate fighting championship situation.

It's like

all everyone is doing is interrupting each other constantly, one-upping each other constantly, waiting to talk without listening, or creating these hostage situations where one person is monopolizing the conversation, right?

Babe, this is your kryptonite.

Nothing actually makes you more upset.

Literally.

I know.

It was deeply upsetting to me.

Okay.

And it is, it's, it's like we as human beings really only have this one tool to connect with each other.

I mean, there's sex, but like for people, for, for, for non-intimate people, it's like we have this one tool to use to feel less alone, to lighten our own burdens, to learn from each other, to get wisdom, to learn from each other's experience, to feel useful and helpful and helped.

And that tool is conversation.

But nobody really teaches us how to use our one tool.

And I seriously think that that could be one of the main reasons that we're also lonely.

Right?

Because we don't even know really how to use the one tool that we have to connect to each other.

And I just feel like at this moment with social media and COVID continuously isolating us more and more, that we have

to commit

to learning and practicing the life-saving tool of listening, of sharing, of having better conversations.

So.

And it's interesting because a lot.

Like a huge percentage of the questions and the topic requests are about

how do I make friends?

How do I have better friendships?

How do I go out and meet people?

And when you think about it,

being able to have a conversation and connect and break through to people to be known and to get to know them is really the only way to do any of that.

Yes.

So when you think about it, this conversation that we're having today is about everything, right?

It's about how to feel less lonely.

It's about how to have better relationships.

It's about how to connect with your kids.

It's about how to connect with your friends and your partners and make friends and show yourself at work.

It's just

about the most important tool that we have as human beings.

Can I just say that this is something that you, Glennon, have helped me so much with.

I didn't realize I had some shortcomings when it came to this.

And I just want you, listener, to know that if you fall into any of the categories of which we will speak in in the next hour or so,

don't feel sad.

We base this entire episode on my failings at conversating.

That's not true.

That's not true.

A few of them are mine too.

And I think it's really just, it's really just all of them come.

from a good place.

Like none of these are moral failings.

They'll all, they're all trying to connect with people, but just missing the mark in execution.

And so I think it's why a lot of us walk away.

I mean, does anyone ever have the like, the conversation hangover where either that, I mean, I don't even drink anymore and I still have it.

When I was drinking, I had it a lot more, but like that night

or like, or like two minutes after, you'll be like, oh, God, everything I said was so awkward or like that didn't land or like

you just have to avoid that person for the rest of your life.

Yeah, exactly.

All I do is say something and then obsess about the thing that I said for the rest of my life.

Yeah, absolutely.

It makes having a podcast tricky.

But

we are going today to have a conversation about having a conversation.

Okay.

So

we have come up with, and let's just reiterate what Abby said, which is that.

basically we came up with all of these things based on all of our annoying annoying conversation habits.

Okay.

My conversation, my annoying conversation habit is to get annoyed at everyone in the conversation for not doing it the way I think that they should be doing it, right, baby?

Oh my gosh, I'm so proud of you for admitting that.

I didn't think that that was going to come out of your mouth.

Thank you.

You bring the threatening teacher anxiety to the entire conversation, just like, let's make sure that nobody messes up.

Correct.

That's right.

That's right.

I cut people off for cutting other people off.

I ruin the conversation in fear that someone else will ruin the conversation.

That is what I'm doing here.

So,

okay.

We three,

based on zero expertise in this area,

based on nothing but our own

feelings,

feelings and failings,

have come up with five simple changes that will lead to better conversations.

I know it might feel weird to have actual official suggestions or or rules about having a conversation.

it's going to feel restrictive and bossy to some people but i would like to posit that in any sort of creative endeavor structure liberates okay

this is a idea i live by that if i don't have certain structures within which to be creative i do not feel safe enough to unleash myself and i think that that is true in conversations i think that that i think all the time about AA and about how AA is the single longest running, most successful program of the world.

Why do people keep coming back and back and back and back to this place?

And I think it's because there is a structure that people adhere to.

Inside of which they actually get to tell the truth about their own lives and be vulnerable because they know that other people have a structure with which to receive their stories.

They know they're not going to get cut off.

They know they're not going to get dismissed.

They're not going to get belittled.

They know that they are safe sharing themselves.

And what people want more than anything is to be seen and understood and to feel less alone.

And because there are guidelines around conversations, people can do it there.

And it also allows you to be more of yourself.

You know, when you think like, oh, you're following these rules, it means you're not being yourself.

But I think you'll see as we talk through them that it's actually, it's taking all these jobs that we thought were our jobs in a conversation and just removing them.

So it's actually less, less

jobs and more just ability to show up as you are, which turns out to be actually the only rule.

Yes.

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Okay, so can we talk about the first one, which is the thing that I just hate more than anything in the entire world?

Yeah, I think it's safe to say this is going to be your ball to run down the field,

Glennon.

So go for it.

All right.

Interrupting.

I do not know how to explain to you how upsetting this is to me.

Abby knows.

When I go out into the world a couple times a year

and I stand in a circle of people who have an opportunity to share themselves and hear other people's stories where people are being brave and saying something that's important to them and then somebody else is constantly cutting them off.

Okay.

It actually, I've told Abby, it feels violent to me.

Okay.

It feels like a battle.

I just, there is something about someone sharing something and another person cutting them off and interrupting them that feels so wrong and arrogant to me that

I very often Abby will know, I have to turn to the person and say, hold on, let her finish.

Let him finish, which always creates another awkward moment that we have to get ourselves out of.

Now,

I know.

that there are a lot of people who get mad at me when I speak poorly of interrupting because they believe in interrupting.

They call it,

we'll put in the show notes, someone coined the term

creative overlap.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And that was a very good example of creative overlap because I was saying something.

Okay.

And you interjected something to keep me moving along the same

train of thought, right?

We were overlapping.

You were helping me.

You were carrying the ball down the field.

So for sports reference, if creative overlapping is if I'm talking, I'm holding the baton, I'm running the little race, okay?

And then somebody else, I'm almost done.

Somebody else takes the baton from me and keeps running, okay?

Same little track.

Interrupting, I'm running with my baton, and some

man

runs over,

knocks me out of the way, grabs my baton, and runs completely the other way.

Okay?

That to me is interrupting.

Babe, let's talk about interrupting because would you say it was the number one issue in our marriage for the first three years?

No, okay.

For like the first two years, it was fine.

Our marriage was perfect.

Then all of a sudden, because you, you bit your tongue, you didn't tell me for so long that it was driving you bonkers.

And then one day, I think it was at the dinner table this is where it like started to sink in so

when you told me that after dinner one day that we had had with our children that i had interrupted all three of them on like four or five different occasions

and what you said is you know honey when you interrupt them That means you're, you're stopping them from telling you who they are.

And I I just thought, oh my gosh, it's so right.

And it was like, I don't know, the first time in my life that I'd ever heard

somebody come to me with this,

what I feel like is a personality trait, or what I felt like was a personality trait.

And so, yeah, it's been, it's been.

a struggle for you for sure for a while.

And now I have taken the baton and really doing work on it.

And I think I'm getting a lot better.

You are.

Can you talk to us about why

on behalf of all the precious interrupters can you just talk to us about what

the feeling you get what are why do you interrupt yes my name is abby wombach i'm an alcoholic and an interrupter yes um hi abby

i don't know i think that

I think being a part of a big family

socialized me in such a way that when I

had something to say,

if you said it the loudest, you were listened to.

And then also one of my biggest things is if I don't say this thing right now, I'm going to forget it.

And this plays into like the fear of my brain and not being smart enough.

And like literally, I feel like if the conversation keeps happening, I will forget it.

And then I won't say the thing.

And then I will disappear into the oblivion.

Okay, okay.

And this is what fascinates me because I think I want to stay there for a minute because I think that we have different ideas about what a conversation is.

And this fascinates me to no end because

when you say,

I'm going to forget what I want to say in that moment, and what if the conversation goes on and I haven't said that thing?

Okay, so when I think of a conversation, I think of

like, like, it's like a river that we're all deciding to get on.

Okay.

And we're just, our job is just to flow down the river and surrender to it and go wherever it takes us.

Right.

And when you, I can feel that energy comes.

You have to say something.

You're going to say something.

You're, you're, you're, what you're doing is you're holding on to the side of the riverbank and refusing to go with the rest of us down the riverbank.

So by the time you get to what you've said before, we're not even there anymore.

It's true.

It's like the, it's the other part of it is that if you're, if, if you're just waiting to say what you want to say, then what you've done is you've stopped listening.

Yes.

And like you're just waiting until the moment where you have an opening to say it.

And it's fascinating because the original meaning of the word converse was to live or dwell with.

like literally just to be

with.

And so if you take yourself, if you're, if you're, if you have a, I have something to say and I'm staying, you're not with wherever that's going, like you said with the, um, with the river.

That's, yes.

I'm waiting to talk.

Like, I, I feel like if we were in a circle, let's just say we're in a hypothetical circle talking to each other.

What I feel like you've just discovered for me is every single time I stop talking, I just turn my back to the circle, to the outside.

Yes.

And then when I think of the thing that I want to say, I'm going to turn back around and then say it.

And it just like, it's so rude the way that I'm doing conversation.

It really is.

Like thinking about it in that way, like I'm literally not listening.

All I'm waiting for is a moment of space where I can say the thing that I'm thinking about.

Yeah.

Rarely am I taking in what you've said.

It's so selfish.

Well, I don't think so.

I don't think it's selfish at all.

I think you're just, I think it's like an art that you, that we just all learn.

Like,

I think that some, a lot of people do think of conversation as taking turns talking.

And that's not to me what it is.

It's not taking turns talking.

It's like a surrender, a mutual surrender.

It's like sex in a way.

It's like,

and do you know that it, that was the meeting?

That like after the, after the original meeting, it used to be called to converse with,

was to have sex with.

No way.

Yes.

It was it was used to describe sexual relations.

I want to say about Abby's, it's not being rude.

I mean, I think a good, it's all about the way you were raised and the culture that you're in.

I mean, there's, there's a bunch of cultures where it's like.

That is the way that you show enthusiasm as everyone's

overlapping and talking over each other.

And that's the way that you show engagement in the conversation.

I mean, it's like, I mean, a lot of people think sarcasm is super rude.

We grew up in a very sarcastic family.

We, that was the way I connected with people for like 20 years before I unlearned that way of being.

It's just how you live.

And there's also a big neurodivergence issue.

People who are neurodivergent also engage with the world in a different way.

And they're often interrupting.

But I think,

so I don't think it's as simple as that, but I do think

that

letting people have

what they're saying and then waiting to respond, like being like, I won't know what a response should be until this person is done because it's evolving.

This conversation is evolving based on what they say.

And so, if I have a response already, it's not the one that is even appropriate.

Well, and I'll say this too, for all of us interrupters out there, I think that there is a deep insecurity inside of us that we really, what we're saying ironically is, I want so badly to connect that I want you to see me.

And in doing this interrupting in the way that we're conversating, it's like the complete opposite.

It's actually repelling so probably so much connection and intimacy that I mean, that's what I've learned.

Let's move on to talk time

awareness.

This is a fascinating one.

Have you ever been

with a group of people in which one person

without any sort of awareness just dominates the entire conversation and doesn't even notice?

What do we think about that?

What do we think about the monologuers and hostage takers?

I'm sorry.

That's what I think.

Babe.

Babe.

It's hard for you because you're like the sun and you come into a room and people want to hear from you and it's tricky.

But it doesn't work in like a marriage.

Correct.

Like

I have to learn, but I'm doing the work.

I'm going to just, I'm just going to be quiet on this part.

What do you think about hostage takers and monologuers, sister?

How do you deal with them?

Or are you one?

I think, well, I think the interesting thing about talk time is I think that we often

people who can

hold

a crowd or a conversation often feel like we're doing a service because we are moving.

We're like, look, everyone's enjoying this.

This is lovely.

We're just carrying this conversation and carrying, like, it's a burden to be carried by a person.

But I think we just assume that

if other people wanted to talk, they would.

But I think it, it, what I have noticed is, I have, I have a few friends who are on the quieter side, and it's, it's like,

it's just they have a different barrier of entry to a conversation.

So they, they, they may

not

jump in.

Like, it's almost as if we view them as

being too shy to speak, but maybe we're just too aggressive and keep speaking.

So, like, if often they will have, just because they're not speaking doesn't mean they have, don't have something super valuable to say.

So I think that

I

will have occasionally just been like, well, what do you think about this?

And then it turns out that that person had the most interesting thing to say about any, then anyone else who had been talking.

So I just think it's interesting as like a practical point to notice,

you know, who

isn't talking and is there a way that isn't putting them on the spot, but that just

invites them in?

Because that just may be, they may just need a little bit more prompting than the next person.

And space.

Like there's a lot of people who just need a second or space in a conversation.

And I think that so many of us are so uncomfortable with any lapse in conversation, right?

Me, yep, yep.

Right.

That, that what would happen, so like giving an example, if we were with our family at the dinner table, if there was a second, Abby would maybe analyze that second and think, well, clearly nobody has anything to say and jump in.

And so what we used to talk about is like actually not giving a space.

Every time you talk,

you're taking that opportunity from somebody else, right?

Every time you're filling a silence, you're taking a part that could have been somebody else's who might need an extra minute because all of us have people in our families or friendship groups who might take and aren't going to like do the kill or be killed in a conversation, like actually need a space before they feel safe enough to speak.

And might I add, I just think, you know, I kind of spoke about this a little bit ago.

I think it's really important for those of us who struggle to have

the conversations that I think we're trying to aspire to throughout this podcast, ones that are meaningful, and deep and beautiful and

even, you know,

I think it's important to note that it is not a personal failing or a character trait of yours to be an interrupter or to be somebody who can't sit in that moment of silence, to let that moment just be.

I came from a big family, whatever your circumstances, I don't think that we can attach moral, like morality to it.

And I think that I think that prevents us and

keeps us in defensive mode when our partners bring this to us or

our children bring this to us.

And I think that it took me a long time to learn that lesson, Glennon, because for a long time I just thought, you're trying to change me.

You're trying to change who I am, right?

And this is just like a behavior that can be

can be altered or just just changed slightly so that you can have a deeper and better experience with the people around you.

Well, Well, and it feels like when you're saying, you know, who I am, it's like if you're having a conversation with anyone, then you are assuming a we,

right?

You have changed in a conversation, you've changed from two I's or three I's, and now we're this different entity that's a we,

right?

So, and there's a whole different set of ways we are in being.

We're not just proving our I-ness.

We are this new thing, this we thing, right?

And

I do think that because I'm extremely judgmental and the opposite of you in that way, I do think that there are moral issues involved.

Like when you think about talk time, I mean, I told you guys this story recently.

I did this,

I was a diversity and inclusion speaker for queer during Pride Month for this group.

And

I was on a call with

20 people,

and

three

white men

took up,

I don't know, 80% of the talk time of the entire meeting on a diversity and inclusion meeting, right?

And, you know, there is a moral issue there, right?

It's like it's talk time when we're all in the middle of a conversation.

It's like 10 of us walk up and there's 10 slices of pizza, and three of us feel entitled to take eight of those slices of pizza for no reason.

Right?

So who we're allowing to have the talk time and who's feeling entitled to take the talk time is often a moral issue because people who speak are the ones who are heard.

And the ones who are heard create the narrative and create the

so-called

because I think it's amazing how mad they got.

Tell what happened when you.

told the people stop talking.

Well, I said, I, I mean, I said, I stopped the meeting and I said, I just think it was for a very big company.

And I just said, I don't think that I can leave here without asking you to,

even on this meeting, pay attention to who is allowed to speak and who is not allowed to speak.

Pay attention to talk time.

And

two of the men, I think I called you, sister, and said, we might not have a speaking career anymore.

I mean, two of the men turned off their cameras and left the meeting.

But after they left, we had a really good conversation.

Everybody started talking.

But as you know,

weeks later, I got a letter from the person who had asked me to come speak and said that one of the men had gone home and told his wife that he was feeling very

put in a corner.

He was feeling very put in a corner.

After that, and he was upset.

And the wife said to him, Well, how do you think women and people of color have felt since the beginning of time?

Thank you for the solidarity,

Tom's wife.

Yes, that's right.

And the really cool thing is that actually that guy had a bit of an awakening and was working on some things and was reading and trying to alter his

entitlement to talk time.

Right?

So there is some hope, but

yeah.

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Okay, sister, this one was really important to you.

So let's move on to it.

Number three was keeping confidences.

Talk to us.

This is a simple one.

It's just this idea that

I feel like we sometimes we want to, so so breaking confidence is when you share

something about someone that you're not supposed to share with with someone else, right?

And so I feel like sometimes it, again, comes from a place of wanting to like prove this connection to this person.

They want to like, you're like creating an intimacy by entrusting that information to that person.

Like, look, we're like here, we're like this now because I just told you this thing.

But I just think

that if you break confidences of someone who is not in the conversation, then you lose the trust of the person that is in the conversation because

they know that if you're willing to do that to that person, you're also going to do it to them.

So that's just a super simple one that I feel like, I mean, I've done it before.

I've been, I, and I just feel like it always

feels icky and just isn't a good

way to establish.

It's like a cheap way to establish a bond.

It's actually counterproductive.

Yeah.

And I think that we do it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Why I just wish, and I have no answer for this.

I'm not like positing a question that I have some wisdom to share about it.

I just, what is it about like the gossip that just feels so enticing?

It's like, it feels so

like being the first to be the one to tell the thing.

Or to hear, to hear the thing.

I hate, I hate, I, I loathe that part of myself.

Like, but you shouldn't.

You shouldn't, because we all do have it.

Like it is like an evolutionary thing.

I mean, apparently, like the idea about gossip, which is just, I mean, gossip can be negative, it can be positive, or it can be neutral, right?

It's really just sharing something about somebody else who isn't there.

That's the, that is the actual definition.

But there's these theories that like, that's how we evolved because you had to be aware of what was happening in who, you know, who had the food, who had, who was sick over there, who had the, in order to evolve.

And they've done studies, and like, no one should be pretending to be holier than thou on this.

It's like pretty much every single person does it.

Right.

And a lot of it is

positive or neutral.

A lot of it is like saying lovely things about somebody else, saying, but I think it's just in the negative category, it's very clear that

people distrust people

who

disclose that information.

I do.

So it's, yeah, and it's just a good, it's a just a because I think there's all, we're just all so desperate for connection that sometimes we reach out to these things that are not useful tools in establishing the connection.

And I, you know, I've done it before.

So I think it's just a good little template.

Okay.

This is a fascinating one that I love.

This is the mountain that I love.

Okay.

So let's get into it.

Number four: know when to make it about you and when not to.

Oh, gosh.

Okay, this is a self-study.

So this is not about you, Abby.

This is about me.

So I, I,

this is a big one.

Um, I feel like

it's really important because there's some situations where talking about yourself can be one of the best things you can do to make a real connection.

And then there's some cases where you can like obliterate that connection very easily.

So there's like good, bad, and the ugly of talking about yourself.

The fascinating thing is that

on average,

we all spend 60% of every conversation talking about ourselves.

Oh my gosh.

It is just a thing that we do.

And it's because talking about yourself activates the area of the brain that also lights up when you are taking drugs, when you're, when you are having sex and when you're eating great food.

It is like, it gives you a neurological buzz to talk about yourself.

So makes sense.

There's no, yes.

So that's, there's all the issue about moral morality and am I good or am I bad is horseshit.

It's like that we are doing this for a good reason, right?

Okay.

So, but

there's a good way.

And I used to never do this.

So I used to be like would never talk about stuff I was going through because I thought like it's my job to fix myself up.

It's not my job to bring my problems to other people for fixing.

And that it's actually self-disclosure is

increases social bonds and increases your personal health.

So when you are in, when you're in relationship with people and you're willing to share your, you know, your vulnerabilities and your fears and your struggles and your joys and your hopes, good.

Yes, keep doing that.

That is a very good thing.

And I think it takes courage to do that.

A lot of people don't do it, but that if you're, if you have shallow relationships and you're not bringing your stuff to people, that could be a reason why.

Interesting.

And then there's

the bad one.

So this is when you,

again, you're trying to connect with a person, like you said, Abby, like so hard.

You're trying not to make them feel alone.

they're sharing some like deep hurt or grief or sadness with you.

And so your effort is to say like they're talking about they lost a loved one or they're going through a divorce or something.

And so you are like

searching through your mental database, being like, what experience do I have or do I know of that connects in some, in some tangential way to what you're saying?

And so we say things like, that's exactly how I felt when my grandma died.

Or my friend went through the same thing when she split up with her husband.

Like you, you say the thing because you're like, look, I see you.

But, but this is what is amazing.

In our effort to say we see them by drawing any kind of parallel to any experience that we have had or someone else has, we actually make them feel invisible.

Oh.

And this is because this idea of like sympathy versus empathy, that empathy is when you feel people's pain through their

particular experience.

Yes.

Right.

Like

not through yours, not through somebody that you knows.

Like, it's like every, it's this, it's this whole new way of looking at life that I had to learn the hard way, which is that like experiences are always particular, pain is always particular, and it's brand freaking new.

It's like when someone tells you about their divorce, no divorce has ever happened before their divorce.

This is a brand new thing.

And so

it feels when you draw,

like

to be empathetic, we have to understand how they really feel in particular, not in the abstract.

And so when you lump them with other people, you're just minimizing and invalidating them.

And so what that feels like in practice also is you tell me about your divorce, then I tell you, oh, well, that's what happened to me and blah, blah, blah.

And then I'm talking about me.

And like this person has disclosed this thing about themselves and we're not even on their thing anymore because I've diverted it back to me.

And so instead of pulling the baton from their hand and talking about your thing, you could ask follow-up questions.

But that is the hard thing, right?

Like, and also when you do feel like you have this like wealth of knowledge, like when you feel like you're like, oh my God, I have so much to offer, it's actually accepting that that offering isn't helpful,

which is odd.

That's right.

It's an odd feeling.

You have to be like, I could offer you all of this, but in offering all you all of this, I'd be defeating my own purpose.

So instead, I have to just come as as if I've never heard any of this before and ask you to tell me a little more.

That's right.

So let's move on to that.

Okay.

We're going to close with this number five, which is

ask

better

questions.

If

this is a magic trick, this conversation thing that we're discussing.

The question

is the like, it's the white rabbit.

Okay.

The question

is the most important part of the conversation I think I think that the best conversationalists are the people who know how to ask good questions okay and you have talked about this sister in terms of

asking the real question

can you or asking about the real thing can you talk about that

Yeah, I just think that sometimes that the times where I'm just like go dead inside is when I'm being when I'm surrounded by super intelligent, intriguing, fascinating women, and we're talking about dumb shit.

Like, we're not all like we all know your kids going through that thing, and your marriage is going through that thing, and your parent is going through this horrible thing.

And we're not talking about any of it.

And it just feels like a giant waste of collective emotional

intrigue.

And so the and so i

just

it doesn't always go well but i've just tried to just ask the the main thing like i know you just went to go visit with your mom like

how'd that go how'd that feel you know or

what is you know

how's how's it going with the school system did they get did you ever get those reports back or how do just because i feel like there's such a we're all so lonely and we might as well be like addressing our, our highest emotional needs when we're together.

Now, I get that there's not, there's not always a place for that, but

that

generally has led to like really great conversations that we would never get around to having.

It's never the time unless somebody asks the question.

That's right.

That's right.

And another thing that I love so much about

asking questions, you know, in our family, we do the thing where we have questions that we ask at dinner each night.

Okay.

And that's, I'll tell you why we did that, because I

found myself, you know, we'd been have very busy days.

The kids go do all their stuff.

We go do all their stuff.

We would be wanting this like quality time.

Right.

And we'd get to the table and I couldn't think of one freaking thing to say to these people.

Like all I could think of was like, how is your day?

And like the kids would be, would say fine.

And I just, and I could think of, I look at them like, I know they're treasure chests of treasures.

And I cannot think of one damn thing to elicit any of the treasures that they have inside of themselves.

I'm too tired, lack of creativity, whatever.

So I went to this friend's house at one point and years ago, and she has this rule where when people come over for dinner, they choose a question.

And it's like a big ended question.

Like, what's one great regret in your life?

Or like, if you could travel one place, or who's a friend and who's the loneliest friend you have in your life and why?

Just like big questions.

And each person goes around and answers.

Now, it's awesome because

you get things out of people that you didn't know.

You get to actually, you leave tables, you leave conversations, knowing the people who came into the conversation better than you did when they sat down.

And I don't know what is a better reason for time together, right?

You also,

as a result, know yourself better, right?

And you feel less alone, less alone and less weird because you realize that we're all, we've all got this weird stuff inside of ourselves.

But number two,

in every family, in every, you know, a group of friends, there are always people who won't fight the conversation battle.

who are not, who have just as many gems inside of them, who have just as many beautiful ideas and challenges and problems and burdens and stuff to share, but will not pick up a sword and fight the thing where, you know, the three people who are always like

jumping over each other to talk, they won't do it.

But when you ask a question

that everybody gets to answer, you make sure that even those beautiful people who won't fight for it get the time to share themselves.

So it's an equalizer, right?

Yeah.

And it, and it, I think, curbs some of the folks who might have a little bit of social anxiety as well in terms of having conversation because it's not easy, obviously.

Like I suck at having conversation, but there are also people on the other side who are as anxious to even enter into a conversation.

So the structure of it also is liberating.

So that's something that's just an awesome, I just love it so much.

I love it when I'm at a table and somebody pulls out a question.

It makes, it just makes me feel like we're going to get to everybody and nobody's going to be allowed to cut each other off and we're going to hear from everyone and we're going to to talk about real things it makes me so excited tell the tell the folks what our friend our kids friends think about it

oh

well we thought that oh everyone is going to love us the most because we make everyone eat dinner with us and we all of our kids have to sit down with us and we just thought we were like the favorite family and what did tish's friend said are we all do are we doing the question thing and tish was like yeah we always do and she and she rolled her eyes or something and tish was like what and she goes your family's intense

We're like,

We're like so proud of ourselves.

These kids are going to go back to their families and be like,'Wow, they have amazing conversations for dinner.' But nope, lo and behold, we are the weird family that has intense conversations over dinner.

I know.

So, anyway, it's not foolproof.

I think that I know more than anyone on this entire planet that having the right therapist to talk to can make a life-changing difference.

That's why I think Alma is so cool.

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You can use their directory to search for someone who specializes in the areas that matter most to you, whether that's anxiety, relationships, or anything else.

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That's hello A-L-M-A dot com slash hard things.

So for next straight thing, what do you all think?

Should we just see if people want to try one of these things and maybe the pod squatters can get back to us on how it goes?

Or maybe they could think of different ways

to

have better conversations that we haven't thought of.

Because I would love to hear other people's ideas.

Same.

I would too.

And also, I would just say this, being the person that struggles probably with this episode the most,

what I would say is try to like enter into a conversation with your partner about this

and go into this conversation as defenseless as you possibly can.

Go in open.

Ask really big questions like, am I an interrupter?

Do do I talk about myself a lot?

Things like this that can actually help you get closer to maybe your partner.

Because I know that that for a long time it took me a while to like

lower my defenses to getting really honest to want to actually do the work to be better at this

amanda do you have anything to say before we sign off i think it would just be really fun to think about if you already know you have a

an area that you want to focus on to get to know people better in your life.

I mean, I think that's what this is all about.

It's not like rules about conversation.

It's tools, tools to be able to get to know people better that you obviously want to know because you're in conversation with them.

So how to do it more effectively.

So if you already know what that tool is that you want to lean into, be interesting to pay attention to it or pick one of these five that you know is your biggest challenge and just pay attention to it to it during the week and see if you have,

see if you learn anything.

Like for me, I am going to do the watch talk time.

I'm going to, I, I take up a lot of talk time in my family and, and I'm going to just see what happens when I don't.

Awesome.

And I'm going to listen because that's my favorite part of conversation.

So I want to hear all of your pod squatter ideas about how to have better conversations because this is one of my favorite topics ever.

And I learned so much from all of you.

So leave us your ideas.

When things get tough this week, don't forget, you can do hard things.

We love ya.

I give you Tish Milton and Brandy Carlisle.

I walked through fire, I came out the other side.

I chased desire,

I made sure I got what's mine,

and I continue

to believe

that I'm the one for me.

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line.

Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are map.

A final destination.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a heart again.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem,

sometimes things fall apart.

And I continue

to believe

the best

people are free.

And it took some time,

but I'm finally fine.

Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are map.

Our final destination

lack.

We stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to

know.

We'll finally find

our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do a hard pain.

We're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

We might get lost, but we're okay with that.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find

our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do hard things.

Yeah, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we

can do hard

things.

We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios.

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