21. On Cussing, “Cattiness” & What Feminism Means to G

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And we're back.

And you're back.

Every time.

Every time, I just get so amazed and excited that you came back.

Thank you.

We keep throwing this party and there keeps being guests.

And it's just my favorite kind of party because no one's really here at my home.

It's just, it's perfection in every way.

This is episode, you know, two of the week.

We can do hard things.

So, of course, this is the we can do easy things episode.

We're just taking it easy, breezy, as we always do, right?

Amanda and Abby?

Yeah, that's totally your MO.

Easy and breezy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Light.

okay.

So what's up this week?

I will, I woke up this morning feeling very content because

we actually have a house full of children right now, teenagers.

So our oldest has a couple friends staying with us for a week.

And so they were at our house.

And then our middle had two friends sleeping over last night.

And the younger one also did.

So we had this house full of teenagers.

And I remember sitting on the couch last night.

We were playing some scattergories game or something, charades of some sort, and thinking, oh my gosh, I was so afraid of having teenagers because the world scares the crap out of you about how much they're going to suck.

But actually, I think that the teenage

years,

while there's been plenty of drama and trauma, is my vibe.

I think it's my favorite parenting slice.

I think you're good at it.

You're good at it.

I mean, you really are.

Thanks.

I mean, you know why I think I'm good at it?

I remember a long time ago reading this New York Times article by this brilliant person who said that what teenagers need is just a potted plant parent,

which basically means that once the teenage years come around, your job is to behave in all ways like a potted plant in the corner.

Like you're there.

Okay.

They need you.

They think they don't need you, but they need you more than ever.

But they need you in a very different way than they need you when they're young, which is they just need you to be there and quiet and not just inert

and maybe hydrating, but that's it.

Offering,

there's a lot of stuff that happens that requires feeding said teenage children that requires your wife administration that requires me.

Well, every potted plant needs a wife, and I got myself one.

But I've had this, don't, I mean, sister, you and I have talked about this theory where like we're expected to just like love parenting, but that's ridiculous.

Like parenting is too wide of an experience, right?

It's like, actually, most of the people that I know,

they have one time in parenting that they really vibed with.

Like they either loved being pregnant.

And then once the kid was born, they're like, oh, the good part's over.

They like, love babies or toddlers or preschool, you know, but it's like

everybody matches one.

Have you found yours yet?

I mean, I'm holding out.

Mine's just around the corner.

I can,

I can feel it coming.

It's just any minute now.

No, I remember my mother-in-law is like that.

She's also an older kid one.

That is her preference.

And I remember her saying, I mean, if I would have known what the top, she has five kids, by the way, one of whom is my husband husband and he is the fourth.

And she said, I definitely would have only had two, like all one front of us.

So I'm saying it's very, I think the

niche, I feel like saying I like parenting or the expectation you'll like all of it is being like,

I like life.

No one likes all of life.

It's just a very, it's all.

So I feel like there's a, there's going to be a period upcoming.

I'm kind of liking right now

Bobby's nine.

And I feel like it's like his, he's his own little person.

He goes and does things, but he still wants to play with me doing things.

Sometimes like he's still interested.

He's still cuddly.

It's like this very sweet spot, but he's not like,

he still wants me around a slice, but not like a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I can show up really well in small slices.

And that's, it's my maximum level of of performance.

I think God must have known my personality because I think for a long time I thought that I wanted to have a baby of my own, but I actually think that God must have known that that wasn't going to be good for me.

That I think that the

formed person,

you know, eight to 13, eight to 18 now,

13 to 18 now.

is the kind of my jam.

Like I can have having the conversations, like not dealing with poopy diapers.

Like,

I really think that I got the best of all of the worlds.

And I'm sorry that you all had to stay up so late with breastfeedings and late nights and stuff.

Although, I am, you are getting payback now, babe.

I, I do all late night driving.

Listen, every time the kids have to be out till 11, which is a terrible thing about teenagers, that they freaking make

every time I begin to feel guilty about allowing you to do the night shift, I think back on all

of the midnight feedings and how you just geniusly missed them and arranged this so beautifully.

And I do not feel guilty

any longer.

Okay.

I loved so much our conversation about gender.

And we decided that there were so many beautiful questions from our incredible pod squad that we saved them all for today.

And we're going to get to as many of them as we can.

So let's jump in.

Let's hear our first question about gender.

Actually, is our first question a write-in?

It is.

It is.

You ready?

Uh-huh.

Ready.

Okay.

Here's the first question.

Hi, G, what do you say about this?

I am a woman who is much more comfortable with men.

Most of my friends are men because I find women to be so competitive and caddy that I just can't take it.

Thoughts?

my first thought when i hear this question which i hear quite often in many different iterations is that i want to call 911 i want to call like gender triage i want to just like circle up all of the most wonderful women i know and ship them to this person and just

bring her back to life because i just

I can see what the world has done to her.

And I understand it.

I've seen some of that in my life.

It makes sense, but it makes me sad because what I do know is the most important, beautiful parts of my life are relationships with women.

So, I mean, let's say this.

First of all,

I cannot say to you, although it makes me, you know, sweat and shake a little bit to hear people make generalizations about women, like women are catty and competitive.

Okay.

I do want to resist the feminist urge to just say that is bullshit.

Okay.

Because

there is, I understand what she is saying.

Okay.

Misogyny can manifest itself

with women feeling like we have to be competitive with each other.

And what I would say is that that's not inborn in women.

It's not like we're born competitive with each other and caddy with each other.

Okay.

If we are competitive with each other or more competitive than, say, men are, that is because we've been born into a world in which at every table there are 12 seats and 10 of them are for men.

Okay.

And two of them are for women.

And so since life for us on this earth tends to be one terrifying scarce game of musical chairs, we do tend to have to be competitive with each other.

for those two seats.

Why are men more relaxed with each other?

Because they just can be, because there's more space for them in the world, because they're not tokenized like women are, they aren't pitted up against each other like women are.

So, scarcity is placed in front of us as a reality, and we react to that in a very appropriate way by feeling like we have to be competitive with each other because, in fact, we do.

All right.

The cattiness thing always gets me, and I

okay,

here's my theory:

I could be wrong, but not likely.

Okay,

As I always bring up, I was a teacher.

Okay.

I was an elementary school teacher.

Thank God for many reasons.

One of the reasons I got to see up close how we train little girls and boys in this world.

I got to see it happen in real time in front of me.

And what I want to try to describe to you right now is this scenario.

Every time a little boy had an issue with another little boy,

that little boy would be told to deal with the other little boy in an honest, straightforward way that they could work it out.

Okay.

The little girls, when they had problems with each other, everybody, every adult would lose their shit.

The parents, the teachers, don't say, don't be, be nice, be nice, right?

Like a little girl would say, Tammy doesn't like me.

Why doesn't Tammy like you?

Like, we can fix this.

Everything was based on feelings.

Girls over and over again were taught to swallow their own feelings to make the other person comfortable, right?

To not rock the boat, to not cause any outer conflict, to be nice, okay?

So

little girls are not taught to deal directly with each other.

All right.

We are trained to swallow conflict, to swallow when people bother us, to swallow when we don't like people.

God forbid we don't like somebody else, to act like we like them.

But the truth always comes out sideways.

If you can't say it directly, it comes out sideways.

So here's the gossip.

Here's the cattiness.

Here's the whatever.

We are, what I do believe is that women would stab each other in the back less if when we were young, we were allowed to stab each other in the front.

That's really good.

Right.

That's what men are allowed to do.

They're allowed to say the thing, do the thing, work through it, be direct and get through it.

But women are terrified of doing that because the world has taught us to be terrified of doing that.

So I would love us to be able to be more direct with each other, but that's something that we're going to have to decondition ourselves from because the world has trained us not.

Babe, I have to tell you something that you, I don't know if you know this actually,

but I venture to guess that there's a lot of women listening to this that

fancy themselves a guy's girl, right?

And I think that that's before I met you.

I think that that's who I was.

I think I was somebody that secretly, because I got this male acceptance and I got to the seats at the male tables.

I was also a part of the problem that

men would talk poorly about women around me and I would like let that happen.

Men would, I was like one of the guys.

You know what I mean?

And I think that we have to examine those kind of relationships that we have and why we have them.

Because if it weren't for you to have pointed these things out to me, to be like, whoa, why do I, why am I doing that?

Like, I am a feminist.

I'm like out in the world trying to help women secure more rights.

But here I am inside of my own body, actually believing that maybe women are just competitive, too competitive and caddy, because I've been sitting at the tables where that's what the in that was the information I was getting, right?

So just examine the relationships you have.

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Also, I mean, I think we're disregarding the whole truth about gender, which is that it is

completely hierarchical.

Like, like it is not, it is not, you are either or.

It is one is better and one is not as good.

So, so when you are saying you're a guy, I mean, that is actually the gender binary wasn't a binary at first.

Like there, there wasn't a gender binary until the 18th century.

Before that, many doctors just dictated that there was one biological sex.

Okay.

It was male.

Women were inferior to men in that they had not properly developed.

Their penises were tucked inside of their bodies.

Legit, this is for real.

My God.

So

there was one ideal sex that was male, and then there was not male, not male, okay?

Just like there was one ideal

race and that was white and everything else was not white.

Okay.

So, so, so what people are saying, I mean, the whole idea of a binary started in the the Industrial Revolution where the separate spheres, and we had to say that women were domestic so that they would be in charge of what's at home while men went to work.

Okay.

But it was not at all

and value assessments were placed on that because when we started to say men are all men are created equal, we inherently needed to say that women were unequal so that they would be denied and place biological and characteristics on them them as inherent.

So there would be a reason why they would not be allowed to have this equality.

So, anyway, what I'm saying is that, like,

inherent in that is saying, I am as good as.

I do not,

I do not, I am a guy's girl.

I do not lack the deficits that are associated with other women.

I, Abby, can hang with the dudes because I'm not sensitive.

I am not whatever, whatever male is defined as,

female is defined as the opposite of that.

It is not looked at.

It is said, male is superior and strong and powerful.

Therefore, women is the opposite of that.

So, so saying that,

there is, I guess, some truth and experience of that.

For some people, it has not been my experience.

The competitive and cattiness has not been my experience.

But what I'm saying is, people are saying, I can hang at this table.

I am not like the average woman because I have swallowed the conditioning that makes me believe that the average woman lacks what the guys have.

And that is that on that.

Thank you.

Retweet.

I love this write-in because I'm just obsessed with bad words in general.

But my favorite write-in, which we got several times, was, can we discuss the gendering of profanity?

And to that question, I say, fuck yes, we can discuss the gendering of profanity.

Okay, language,

obsessed with it.

Okay, obviously for many reasons, but within this context, because language reveals all of our conditioning, what we say

just reveals what we believe.

right and who we are okay and so

here's my issue with gendered insults is that they all have power attached to them, right?

So I had this conversation with

a dude recently and he called somebody a pussy.

And then he was saying, I challenged him on it.

And he said, okay, how come I can, I can't say pussy, but you all can call each other dicks?

Or you can call men dicks.

Okay.

Because you're so frequently just calling people dicks.

Yeah.

I'm like, when do I call anyone a dick?

Like, I don't think that I do that, but okay.

I

whatever.

The point, what I was, what I tried to get at with this dude, what I tried to get at with this dickhead was this.

All right.

Here's what I want to discuss.

The word dick, okay?

When we call someone a dick,

we are usually referring to someone who is like overconfident.

He's, he's just

wildly entitled.

He's just full of himself.

He has too much power.

or he has he thinks he has more power than he really does he's just oozing with entitlement

so

we don't

we don't call people who are expressing weakness who are showing weakness dicks or pricks right dicks and pricks are folks who feel overempowered

pussies on the other hand

Pussies.

We call people pussies when they are weak.

Okay.

When they are just crumbling with weakness, when they're showing vulnerability, we don't call someone who's over, who's feeling drunk with power a pussy, okay?

Pussies are weak.

All insults attached to women's genitalia are weak, right?

A pussy is someone who is weak,

which means vaginas are weak, okay?

A dick is someone who's strong,

which means that we believe penises are strong.

Okay.

And also, furthermore, on this topic,

can we discuss the fact that most of the insults, the gendered insults we hurl at men are actually insults to women?

Okay, son of a bitch.

I'm going to call you a son of a bitch, which really, all I called you was a son.

I'm really out of nowhere insulting your poor mother somewhere, right?

She's not even here.

She's a bitch.

Your mom's a bitch.

Okay,

that's what we're saying when we call someone who's on a motherfucker.

I'm just gonna start saying going after people.

Your mother's

a bitch.

You might as well.

Mother fucker.

Okay, motherfucker.

Okay, so

how is that an insult to a man?

All right.

They call each other motherfuckers.

Fucker, by the way, is someone who fucks.

So that's, that's a, that's a, that's a solid, like a compliment.

The only one who's being insulted there is mothers everywhere.

You are so terrible that you fuck mothers.

Okay.

Oh my God, I'm sweating so much.

I cannot believe our children are going to listen to this.

It's so good.

Well, I hope to God they'll think about their gendered insults after this conversation.

Douchebag.

Douchebag.

Okay.

You are so disgusting

that

what I am labeling you as is a thing that some women use to clean their body, which, by the way, is disgusting because your body is already a self-cleaning instrument.

You don't need any of it.

It's the layered.

It's misogyny inception.

The layers.

Okay?

So what I'm saying is, even when women are minding their own goddamn business, we're not even there.

The dudes are insulting each other.

Okay?

We're being insulted.

Right?

I just, oh, and by the way, when I show up somewhere and do something awesome and brave, guess what people call me?

Ballsy.

They're saying to me, they are looking at me and they are saying, you are so brave, you are almost like a guy.

Yes.

That's right.

I'm not showing up like a guy.

I'm showing up like a brave woman.

But you're finding a way to even erase my womanhood in this moment.

Right.

You are so sad that it's almost like you're a dude, you freaking douchebag.

Right.

So if a woman shows up bravely, she's a man.

If a woman, if a man shows up weakly, he's a woman.

It's just,

and you know what pussy comes from?

It's from the word pussillanimous, which was a word that was just a descriptor for women.

It literally was just what women were described as.

Okay.

So, so then it evolved, but it, it, it does mean woman.

So there's that.

Oh my God.

Woman?

You know what?

Oh, and it means cowardly.

It means cowardly, by the way.

That word means cowardly.

And then

the whole female genitalia,

the Latin word for that is shame.

Okay.

Shame.

What?

Pudenda.

Shame.

Okay.

So you are cowardly and shameful.

And I'm just talking about your genitalia.

Okay.

Good God on earth.

Okay.

And I don't know what we do, by the way, because I love a good insult.

Well, anyway, I had some feelings about gender.

Just a a few.

Just a few feelings.

We can.

I love

reminder to put the little E on this episode.

Also, how cathartic is it to say so many cuss words?

Oh, my God.

I love it so fucking much.

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All right.

We have, we have another write-in.

Let's go.

Ready for it?

Yes.

Okay.

You call yourself a feminist.

What does that mean to you?

Okay.

This

word,

I have actually been, babe, how much would you, I've been thinking about this so much lately.

Okay, so much lately.

And I am going to describe something that is a new thought for me.

And so it might not come out perfectly, but I'm just going to do my best and just ask everyone to be full of grace.

Okay.

So

here is what I've come to understand about what I mean when I say I am a feminist.

And I'm sorry if it pisses people off.

Not at all.

Are you?

Okay.

I'm just, I'm a woman, so I have to say I'm sorry.

When I say I am a feminist, I actually don't think that I mean that I am on the side of women.

that's gonna be a best I know.

I'm gonna pull that and just run with it.

I know, I know, but let me just say more things.

Okay,

I think I, what I mean, like the truthiest truth I'm trying to get at when I say I'm an I am a feminist is that I am on the side of whoever is getting most royally screwed at the moment by power.

Okay,

so I, what I mean is, if I went went into a culture where women

had been oppressing and marginalizing men

for millennia,

I would be a

masculinist or whatever the other one is.

Okay.

I

have come to this

kind of deconstructing of what I mean by feminist recently with the phenomenon

that I don't align with and that I don't understand, which is this idea of a turf feminist.

What does that mean?

A trans exclusionary radical feminist.

Okay.

So J.K.

Rowling.

Okay.

So that's the, that's the acronym that's okay.

I got it.

Right.

So

I'm sure you'll know what, who they are in, in a hot minute after we record this because they'll all be on our social and self-stream.

Come for for us.

I don't care.

Actually, please don't.

I do not understand

why a group who has spent so long fighting for equality would then turn to another group

who is fighting for equality

and not

wide open arms them

to the movement.

I don't understand the hypocrisy, the irony the um

the arrogance

right i i

you and i have talked about this at length sister and you have some amazing thoughts about well i mean it's the it

correct i mean the people who should be the biggest champions and empathize most radical feminists with uh transgender women should be the biggest champions but it's also

it is also the history of white feminism i mean that that that hypocrisy and that lack of alignment with uh marginalized groups is all the way through the history so so basically

like

where there is a threat where

white women's status is perceived as threatened by by the liberation of any other marginalized group feminism as a movement has

historically always

not only cast them aside, but actively, as the TERFs are doing with the transgender woman, actively lobbied against their interests because of this idea, not only of political expediency, but also the idea of what we talked about with the males and

distinctiveness threat.

You are a threat to the boundary on which I base my entire identity.

And so, in the case of, like, if you just look at the suffragettes, right?

So Elizabeth Cady Stanton, who's like one of the most celebrated suffragettes, she actually campaigned against

actively going around the country, campaigning against the 15th Amendment, which would grant black men the right to vote, because she saw that as an insult and a threat to white women's status, that black men would get it before white women.

She also, the basis that she used, okay, so the same way that TERFs are are vilifying transgender people, the basis she used to do that was to say that

this vile conception of black men as potential rapists, right?

That whole horrible thing that could, you know, continues to pervade culture is completely inaccurate.

And by the way, that's what they do now with the transgender people.

Like think, think, oh, they're going to get you in your bathrooms.

Think about bathroom bills, right?

They're always finding a way to make the person who is most screwed by power seem like the predator.

Right.

Which, by the way, I mean, you know, let's just,

let's just acknowledge the fact that like black people were being

literally crucified by lynchings throughout this entire period, most of which were based on false claims that black men and black boys had raped white women.

That's right.

So she's leaning into this, this whole idea of them as a threat, which then threatens their lives.

Yes.

And by the way, sets up this whole

notion of feminine fragility, which is saying that white women need these rights, not because they're equal, but because they need protection from this outside threat.

Okay.

So

that happens over and over and over again.

We finally get the 19th Amendment.

We totally leave behind the fact that black men and white and black women were completely disenfranchised that whole time after we got it, right?

So white women get the vote.

We're like, sweet, let's celebrate.

They're completely disenfranchised by voter laws.

And we never look back again and do anything to help them, which is.

exactly repeating itself now, right?

We elect Trump out.

Phew, great.

Thank God we're safe again.

And

all of the voting laws that are happening right now in the South after Georgia's historic show up in the last election, they're all being disenfranchised again.

And we're just going on our merry way like, sweet, that's a relief.

I mean, it's just, it is at, it's at the core of everything that white feminism has been and transgender people.

So please just think carefully every time you hear one of your, a turf or a lawmaker say, well, we have to protect women.

you'll see this now in the sports conversation, right?

Oh, we can't let trans kids into sports.

You know,

first,

a minute ago, we were supposed to be scared of trans people in bathrooms, right?

That's what they were leading with.

Now we're supposed to be scared of trans people taking over.

I mean, where have they been protecting us all fucking long?

Right.

All of the people who are so suddenly, it's like whenever patriarchy finds someone to hate worse than women, they suddenly love women.

Like they suddenly want to protect us.

Like, I would love to see every single one of these lawmakers who's suddenly so interested in making women's sports fair.

I would like to see the list of all of the other efforts they've made over the years to ensure equality in women's sports.

So, over and over again, women inside of sports are telling the world what they need.

to make sports fair.

They need investment.

They need to be paid.

They need health care.

They need, but

all of that goes unanswered.

Don't be fooled, right?

Don't be fooled.

Whenever they tell us that they're trying to protect women, it's always horseshit.

Right?

They are not trying to protect us any more than they were trying to protect us during the civil rights era.

They're just trying to use women

as an excuse to keep groups oppressed.

That's right.

That's it.

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Okay, let's finish up with what is quickly becoming my favorite part of the whole podcast, which is our Podge Squatter of the Week.

Hey, Glennon and sister, my name is Jim.

I'm sure I am one of many men who listen to your podcast and who have read or listened to Untamed.

It's an amazing book.

You two are two amazing women.

And I'm proud to say that I'm a feminist

and I'm also a gay man.

And I think your book really resonated with me in that

when you talk about the struggle of women and misogyny, the same can be said about gay men as well, and

how we're,

as a boy, we're raised to not be gay.

You know, I'm 56 years old, and you know, my parents were set in their ways, and I wasn't supposed to be gay.

I was married.

I have a son, he's grown, he's also gay as well.

But I guess

what I'm trying to say is, oh my gosh, the feelings,

the things I feel are so deep.

And sometimes I think, why do I feel so deep and so hard?

I wish I could just shut everything off.

I don't really have a question and I don't really know what to say except I think I must be the male version of you guys.

And I love you guys so much and I love your podcast.

I just do.

You guys are awesome.

Keep doing good work.

And yes, we can do hard things.

And I woke up this morning with that song in my head.

So I thank you.

I thank your daughter, Tish, and I thank Brandy Carlisle.

You guys are great.

Thanks.

I don't even want to, I just want to end with Jim.

You're beautiful.

I hope you never, ever shut any of yourself down.

We need more of that, not less, not ever less.

Thank you, Jim.

All right, like Jim, let's all

remember

this week, until we meet again,

that life is really hard, but we can do hard things.

Love y'all.

I give you Tish Milton and Brandy Carlisle.

I walked through fire, I came out the other side.

I chased desire,

I made sure I got what's mine.

And I continue

to believe

that I'm the one for me.

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on map A final destination

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been

And to be loved, we need to be known

We'll finally find a way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a hard pain.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem,

sometimes things fall apart.

And I continue

to believe

the best

people are free.

And it took some time,

but I'm finally fine.

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

A final destination

we lack.

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do hard again.

We're adventurous and heartbreaks on that.

We might get lost, but we're okay.

We've stopped asking directions

in some places

they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do hard

things.

Yeah, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we

can do hard

things.

We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios.

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