20. PLAYING OUR ROLES: How does culture’s invention of gender typecast every last one of us?

Speaker 1 One thing I love about our listeners is how industrious all of you are. The stories we hear about you guys going off on your own and starting your own ventures like we did, it's truly inspiring.

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Speaker 1 And I continue to believe

Speaker 1 the best

Speaker 1 people are free.

Speaker 3 Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

Speaker 3 Sister, whose name is Amanda and who shall be called Amanda heretofore.

Speaker 3 And Abby and I are thrilled and delighted that you have decided to come back and share an hour of your precious life with us. We will try desperately not to waste your time.

Speaker 3 And I don't think we will waste your time today because we are talking about an issue that applies and affects every single one of us on this beautiful, strange earth, which is gender.

Speaker 1 Wooch woot.

Speaker 3 Woot woot. This is like the most exciting topic for Abby and Amanda and me.
This is like all we talk about.

Speaker 3 So we are super excited to invite you into our ongoing relentless conversation about gender roles and how they affect our experience on this earth and how they affect other people's experience of us.

Speaker 3 We shall solve it today, I think.

Speaker 1 We shall solve gender.

Speaker 4 You know what I think I figured out is that

Speaker 4 thinking back on the fun episode of when I couldn't think of anything that was fun, I feel like

Speaker 4 as a gender studies major. about to do a podcast on gender, I feel like this must be what people think of when they think of fun.

Speaker 1 That's funny.

Speaker 4 I feel like this is fun.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 1 All right. We'll see.

Speaker 3 We will see, won't we? We will see. So one of the reasons we decided to have this conversation today is, well, Abby, you and I had an interesting talk.

Speaker 3 You told me that you were speaking on the phone to one of your dear friends

Speaker 3 and that you were talking about

Speaker 1 the

Speaker 3 beautiful thing that's happening among so many kiddos who are deciding that they identify most closely with being non-binary. Right.
And

Speaker 3 tell us what you and your friend said to each other.

Speaker 1 Well, for those who are living under a rock, the pronoun world is changing and rapidly evolving. And the non-binary world is gaining,

Speaker 1 I wouldn't say popularity, but people are ascribing to it and feeling like that makes more sense than the gender roles that most of us know as female or male, right?

Speaker 1 So, all of the kids these days, they're coming out as non-binary, they, them.

Speaker 1 And I was texting my friend who I adore. She, we were born like three or four days apart.
We were like soul sisters. And I just was talking to her about how I feel like I missed it.
Like, it just,

Speaker 1 it just so happened to pass me by. Like, the kids who were born in the 70s and 80s who might feel like me

Speaker 1 have worked really hard i think and by the way this is my experience i understand that there's going to be a lot of 40 and 50 year olds that choose to go down and walk the path of they them which is cool and amazing and i am here for it but for me

Speaker 1 I think that I've done a lot of personal work. I haven't really been

Speaker 1 a girl or a boy my whole life. I've just been somewhere in the middle all along.
And, you know, I was, I was like not wearing my shirt.

Speaker 1 Like my mom at one point, she's like, hey, honey, like you need to, you need to wear a shirt.

Speaker 3 You're like, you're 13.

Speaker 1 That's bullshit.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, uh,

Speaker 1 okay, but why do my brothers get to run around without shirts on?

Speaker 1 That doesn't feel right. Why indeed? That doesn't feel right.

Speaker 1 So I just want to give love to the folks out there who might find themselves in my position where it's confusing to see all these kids have a freedom or a word or a claim to something that wasn't available to me at the time.

Speaker 1 Or so I understood it, definitively speaking.

Speaker 3 The reason why we're having this conversation today is that I got on the interwebs recently and said something that I thought was just common sense.

Speaker 3 I don't think I explained it right because, as per usual, the interwebs had many, lo, so many feelings about it.

Speaker 1 Um,

Speaker 3 so it was this. Okay.

Speaker 3 And I want, Abby, I want you to explain the situation that happens to our family. And we do experience it as an entire family thing.

Speaker 1 Yep.

Speaker 3 But it's happening to you. And I would say it happens maybe 50% of every time we go anywhere in public.

Speaker 3 And that is that you are publicly misgendered

Speaker 3 by strangers over and over again. Can you just briefly explain to us how it happens and how it feels when it happens?

Speaker 1 Yeah. In the world, out in the wild,

Speaker 1 this, she, her has to pee or go number two every once in a while in public restrooms. It's just a reality, right? When I'm flying on planes, the irony of airplanes being non-gendered is amazing.

Speaker 1 I'm like, I pee in more airplane bathrooms than

Speaker 1 than is probably healthy,

Speaker 1 just because I feel safe there, right? Nobody's going to like call me out. But here's the story that always happens.

Speaker 1 I walk into a woman's restroom because I am a she, her,

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 I immediately get a sinking in my stomach feeling.

Speaker 1 It's like, it's a trauma that has to happen over and over again. Like I have to like, I have to put armor on.
I have to like

Speaker 1 get the kind of strength somebody would need, I feel like, to go into another trauma of their life every time I walk into a public restroom because I know somebody is going to have a problem.

Speaker 1 So the way that I dress, I'm always wearing a hat because I don't want to be noticed in the, in the world every single minute of the day. So I'm always wearing a hat.
I'm, I'm tall, I'm muscular,

Speaker 1 and I dress more masculine than feminine. And so every single time I walk into the bathroom, somebody

Speaker 1 always tries to save me from myself, thinking that I have entered into the wrong bathroom.

Speaker 1 And so it's

Speaker 1 a kindness, but what ends up happening is

Speaker 1 they are like, I'm sorry, you're in the wrong restroom, right?

Speaker 1 And what ends up happening, well, I've already, I've already fixed my voice because I also have a lower voice than the average female woman um

Speaker 1 and so i automatically fix my voice to raise up a few octaves and i'm like hi i like almost try to beat people to the punch because there's inevitably at this moment of embarrassment for them and then me and then i feel embarrassed for them so there's like this victim i feel like i'm re-traumatizing myself every single time and then you're you end up making them feel better i see that all over again then you're suddenly like it's okay you're okay

Speaker 3 it's That's fine.

Speaker 1 You know, don't worry about it. But like,

Speaker 1 it like, I can't explain to you

Speaker 1 how actually upsetting it is

Speaker 1 and how embarrassing it is for me for some reason.

Speaker 1 I don't know if that's just my problem, but I do know that there are a lot of people in my position that walk into restrooms that are like walking into the lion's den of shame, of fear, of questions.

Speaker 1 Like, why can't people just look, look at my face and believe and trust that I am making an adult choice to walk into the correct room?

Speaker 3 Yes. And then it also happens a million other times.

Speaker 3 So the bathroom is the most traumatic, but most of the time when people are trying to be polite by adding that gendered greeting that we have all agreed upon of sir, ma'am, gentleman,

Speaker 3 madame, whatever people say.

Speaker 1 Madame.

Speaker 3 I mean, I've heard that.

Speaker 1 Sir,

Speaker 3 whatever the hell the word is. Sir, ma'am, mostly, right?

Speaker 1 Yep.

Speaker 3 They say sir to you all the time.

Speaker 1 Yep.

Speaker 3 I'm a sir. So thank you, sir.
Thank you, sir. Sir, sir, sir, sir.
And can you tell me how that feels?

Speaker 3 Because you have explained to me how it feels one way when you're alone, but when you're with me and the kids, how it feels

Speaker 3 different.

Speaker 1 Well, if you could imagine like doubling down on the shame shame and embarrassment times like a billion. I don't know why.

Speaker 1 Like maybe there's a psychologist out there that can help me sort through some of this stuff, but

Speaker 1 especially with the kids.

Speaker 1 I don't know if there's like

Speaker 1 it's like somebody calling you by the wrong name forever and you just being like,

Speaker 1 yep. That's my life.
Like that's my experience here.

Speaker 1 And every person,

Speaker 1 it's so sweet. You all do it in one way or another.

Speaker 1 But every friend of mine, like, you don't even, like, there's like this over, like, you don't even look like a boy. I mean, the truth is,

Speaker 1 I do.

Speaker 1 I do present masculine. I get it.
So part of me feels like, well, isn't this what you're kind of going for? But the other part of me that is solidly in my she, her pronouns and gender identity

Speaker 1 feels sad, feels really sad.

Speaker 3 Yeah. So here's what I, this is what I was talking about on the internet.
And

Speaker 3 I do not think for me, the question is, well, do you look like a girl or boy? They should be able to figure out. I think that for me, the question is, why is gender

Speaker 3 something that we have all decided we get to call out and guess? for other human beings, right?

Speaker 3 Why have we decided that gender is the thing that we get to label strangers as?

Speaker 1 Okay. That's good.

Speaker 3 It's this sir, and it's not, it's the intention is often good manners and kindness. That's what we have to call out here.
Like, you know, it's a very, it is a southern thing.

Speaker 3 It is, you know, a familial thing. It is some, it is the culture of the military.
There's a lot of cultures that use sir and ma'am as good manners.

Speaker 3 But the thing is that there are times in our culture where what is good manners stops matching to what is kind and good and right.

Speaker 3 And whenever we have to choose between good manners and kindness and inclusiveness, we choose kindness.

Speaker 3 And what I would suggest about these gendered greetings is that even if the intention is that they are kind, that we've moved past it. Because here's the idea.
Gender is part of our identity.

Speaker 3 It's not something we can see. with our eyes and guess at.
It's something that people have to reveal to us. And we understand this about race, about nationality, about sexuality.

Speaker 3 We would never go up to a stranger and say, if they hand us our plane ticket, say, thank you, lesbian, white Irish woman. Like we don't guess identity.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 Like, so let's stop guessing gender. It's not, oh, we're being snowflakes.
It's not, oh, you're so sensitive, you're offended by everything. It's like, no, listen, it hurts.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 So, why stick to it?

Speaker 1 One thing I love about our listeners is how industrious all of you are. The stories we hear about you guys going off on your own and starting your own ventures like we did, it's truly inspiring.

Speaker 1 It's a big part of why NetSuite came to us as a sponsor. NetSuite offers real-time data and insights for so many business owners, and by that I mean over 42,000 businesses.

Speaker 1 NetSuite offers the number one AI-powered cloud ERP. Think of it as a central nervous system for your business.

Speaker 1 Instead of juggling separate tools for accounting here, HR there, inventory somewhere else, NetSuite pulls everything into one seamless platform.

Speaker 1 That means you finally have one source of truth, real visibility, real control, and the power to make smarter decisions faster.

Speaker 1 With real-time data and forecasting, you're not just reacting to what already happened, you're planning for what's next.

Speaker 1 And whether your company is bringing in a few million or hundreds of millions, NetSuite scales with you.

Speaker 1 It helps you tackle today's challenges and chase down tomorrow's opportunities without missing a beat.

Speaker 1 Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com/slash hard things.

Speaker 1 The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/slash hardthings. Netsuite.com/slash hard things

Speaker 1 well there's something to be said too though about this idea that we need to to

Speaker 1 put ourselves in these boxes so that we can organize and structure what we are because the truth is i think every human being does know that there's vastness and infinite abilities and and

Speaker 1 identities inside of all of us, right? And so because of that known fact,

Speaker 1 it's terrifying. Like, how am I ever going to define my life or my roles here or my purpose here? So I need to be put into this female or male role.

Speaker 1 And Glennon, you and I talk about this all the time because this stuff comes up for me all the time and for you all the time in many different ways.

Speaker 1 And I think in the end, it's just like, again, we are on a spectrum and we have to, as people

Speaker 1 keep evolving with the times to make sure that we are living the most most wild and precious and beautiful life we can imagine.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And that's true. And the story about you being misgendered is

Speaker 4 so important. And I get why that's so deeply traumatic to you.
It's the world constantly telling you, you don't fit here. You don't belong here.
This is not your place.

Speaker 4 You don't match, you know, the constant

Speaker 4 the world telling you that in a thousand ways.

Speaker 4 But it, it, what happens, what I say it happens a thousand times with you and glennon is that it isn't even when people misunderstand you as a man it's like we couldn't be in a situation where everyone knows there are two women in this uh relationship and yet you're constantly being coercively gendered so on your

Speaker 4 um the day before your wedding what can i tell this story about oh yeah yeah yeah yeah do it so The day before your wedding, when we're at the rehearsal, the wedding organizer at the church walked, there was no pre-discussion.

Speaker 4 It was as if it was like, this is obviously the way it's going to be. She knew you were both women.
She tells you, Glennon, where to stand and wait for the queue to walk down the aisle.

Speaker 4 And she told Abby, here's where you stand. You're standing at the altar waiting for Glennon to walk down and you'll be there to receive her.

Speaker 1 So like, even

Speaker 4 in that situation where everyone knew it was two women being married, it was understood and expected that there would be someone to fulfill the male gender role and someone to fulfill the woman's gender role.

Speaker 4 And the lady literally says to Abby, you stand here. And it was a ceremony.
I get it. It's a performance, but that, it's just a microcosm of what happens to us a thousand times in everyday life.

Speaker 4 It goes back to what Abby was saying is that our general discomfort, we need, we need,

Speaker 4 we think we've evolved to say, okay, we understand you two women are getting married. Yay, we affirm you.

Speaker 4 But also, we still need to make sense of this within what we understand to be this immutable gender binary where everyone has the role and we're just picking you up and putting you in this box.

Speaker 4 Does that feel comfortable?

Speaker 1 Ab the game.

Speaker 3 You may kiss the bride.

Speaker 1 Right. Exactly.

Speaker 4 Exactly. And that I just think that is,

Speaker 4 it's just a microcosm of what happens a thousand.

Speaker 3 Well, it's like what you told me about John and the

Speaker 3 law firm and the tax documents. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 4 So I get

Speaker 4 back when I was working at the law firm, I was making way more than my husband. I was doing all of our financial planning, preparing all of the documents for taxes, send him over to the accountant.

Speaker 4 I get back our filings. And it is always 100% of the time, he is listed as the taxpayer.
I am listed as the spouse. You know, it's like, that is, that's a, it's just assumed.

Speaker 4 It doesn't make any damn sense. He's never even talked to the accountant.
I'm making more money. It doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 It's like tax.

Speaker 3 In school, when I get the email about like who has to bring in the cookies or snacks to, and Craig doesn't get the email.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Right?

Speaker 3 Like I'm on the cookie planning list. How?

Speaker 1 How did that happen?

Speaker 3 I don't remember asking anyone asking which one of us makes cookies or if either of us makes cookies.

Speaker 1 Well, you for damn sure don't make any cookies.

Speaker 3 Thank you, babe. Thank you.
This email has reached the wrong recipient to whom it must concern is not I.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 3 But let's go back like a little bit. Let's talk about what actually is gender.
Okay. Because first of all, who the freak knows?

Speaker 3 I feel like there's one idea that I have resonated most with, which is that Judith Butler idea that gender is actually just a performance.

Speaker 3 All right. Now, this is not,

Speaker 3 it's just an idea that I has resonated with me.

Speaker 1 And it's like, we are all were born.

Speaker 3 And then someone says, this is what you are. And here's the role you're going to play.
This is what a girl does. This is what a boy does.
And then, you know, we call them roles, right?

Speaker 3 Roles are for actors. We actually have costumes, right? You're a girl.
Here's your colors. Here's your outfits.
Here's your hair. Here's your makeup.

Speaker 3 When people change costumes, like wear the other roles costume, people lose their damn minds. We have directors who all direct us into these roles, like religions and families and media and peers.

Speaker 3 So it's this idea that we are actually born these wild humans, but we are assigned a role. And then for the rest of our life, we have to play that role.

Speaker 3 And if we step outside of that role, we are punished.

Speaker 1 We are tribal churches.

Speaker 3 I used to see that so much as a teacher, as a teacher. Like these little boys,

Speaker 3 oh, God, I was a third grade teacher. And God help help these little boys if they would be, you know, at recess playing dodgeball

Speaker 3 and they would get overwhelmed

Speaker 3 and they would start crying. The teasing, you know, that is again, that is outside.
That is breaking character. Boys don't cry.
Boys don't feel. Boys don't

Speaker 3 show weakness or mercy, right?

Speaker 1 I feel so bad for those, for all the boys.

Speaker 3 And you could, me too. And you could see it happen.
You could see them break character and be real. And then you could see

Speaker 3 the tribal shaming of, you know, the other boys and the teasing, you know, for those boys to see the weakness that they themselves are trying to hide inside of themselves. So they have to shun it.

Speaker 3 Or the little girls would feel uncomfortable. Sometimes even the adults, you know, knock it off.

Speaker 3 Like, it's just.

Speaker 3 To me, that idea of gender as performance

Speaker 3 has been something that rings true. What about you, sister?

Speaker 4 Well, I think, I mean, it's interesting the roles, you know, gender roles, because roles are also assignments of expectations and responsibilities. Like that is your role.
You perform that role.

Speaker 4 You, your function is that role within the organization. And I mean, to me, I think, I mean, if you start with like textbook definition of gender, it's these like

Speaker 4 behavioral, cultural, psychological traits that are typically associated by the culture with one's sex. Okay.

Speaker 4 So what gender does is gender ascribes similarities within one sex and then differences between the sexes.

Speaker 4 And then we assign them different roles and responsibilities and different personalities and characteristics from birth. Like that's what we do.
But actually we do it before birth because we find out

Speaker 4 what our babies are going to be. And did you know that when we find out what our baby is going to be, if it's a boy, the words that we use to describe them are strong, tough, and handsome.

Speaker 4 The words we use to describe a girl are sweet, gentle, and kind.

Speaker 3 I saw that on the internet recently. Some dude, they said, what do you hope your baby is? And he said, I hope it's a girl.
Why? Because, you know, girls are just more nurturing.

Speaker 3 So this freaking fetus now has an additional mental load already.

Speaker 3 This fetus, it probably doesn't have a freaking kidney yet.

Speaker 1 To take care of her father, by the way.

Speaker 3 Has to take care of her daddy.

Speaker 4 Go ahead. But the thing is about gender is that we we view it as inherent and inborn in us but really what it is is literally before we're born we start telling people who they are and then as

Speaker 4 and and and we do this a thousand different times away a day

Speaker 4 and then

Speaker 4 because

Speaker 4 people have different experiences based on us telling them what is expected of them, what is appropriate for them, what is taboo of them, what they get shunned for.

Speaker 4 They have different experiences, they become different people and it becomes embedded in them, like their whole sense of self-worth and identity.

Speaker 4 And so therefore, our responses to each of these cues we're getting from society are our way of constructing and recreating the gender order because we are responding to what it is.

Speaker 3 So it's a culturally fulfilling prophecy.

Speaker 4 That's exactly right. That's right.
That's like what

Speaker 4 people say, like biology is destiny. That's how, that's why it became the way it is.

Speaker 4 But actually, culture is destiny because we are, because our, and that's a Judith Butler, you know, it's not biology, it's culture because the cultural way becomes so infused in us, we recreate it, it becomes part of who we are.

Speaker 4 And then we we look back at who we are as evidence for the fact that the gender is born within us. That's right.
That's right.

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Speaker 3 Okay, so what have you all ever felt? I want to know from you, sister, because I actually know the answer to this question.

Speaker 3 Sister, have Amanda, have you ever felt trapped inside of a gender role?

Speaker 4 Well, if gender roles are certain characteristics that are acceptable

Speaker 4 for your gender, then absolutely the biggest way

Speaker 4 that I experience it is in my work life. And

Speaker 4 it's actually been like

Speaker 4 a lot harder than

Speaker 4 I

Speaker 4 imagine it because it's kind of Abby, what

Speaker 4 you said about like constantly

Speaker 4 being reminded that this isn't welcome here. You're not, you don't belong here.
And so basically,

Speaker 4 what it boils down to is, I'm a very direct and confident and assertive in my job roles, not always in everything else, but and I feel like I ask

Speaker 4 questions that need to be answered. And I require people to answer them with facts and not just these like patronizing assurances of it's all under control.
We got what we, you'll be fine.

Speaker 4 And so I give people the respect of giving, of speaking directly to them, which to me is a signal of respect. And also,

Speaker 4 I like drive things to mutual goals. So I am, in other words, if I were a man, what you would call a very successful businessman.
Okay.

Speaker 4 But since I am not a man,

Speaker 4 even though I lead us in attaining really good business results, I am constantly and always

Speaker 4 being labeled as a lot or tough to work with or aggressive or dominant or whatever those words are when applied to a woman

Speaker 4 indicate that there is something wrong with me. And so

Speaker 4 the problem is, is it leads me to like question myself a lot when I would never,

Speaker 4 if I were a man, be questioning myself in those positions because I would never get the feedback that there was anything wrong with what I was doing.

Speaker 4 And I feel like it also creates another job for me because I'm constantly walking this tightrope of remaining as direct as I need to be to reach the goal, but also doing this job that men never have to do, which is circling back to all of our team and partners and everyone we're

Speaker 4 working with to make sure that everyone to manage everyone's feelings.

Speaker 1 It's so fucking exhausting.

Speaker 1 Literally. Exhausting.
Oh my God.

Speaker 3 Just listen to that. To make sure you add all your exclamation points.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 I mean, we were on a phone call yesterday and I heard you doing it. And I'm so appreciative because it's like about business and our lives.

Speaker 1 But sister, I am so sorry that you have to jump through all of those fucking hoops for somebody so that you can also get what you want. And also, by the way, they can get what they want.
God.

Speaker 4 Right. I'm working towards our mutual goals.
Like I'm driving us towards our mutual goals. And then I have have to go back and check in their feelings

Speaker 4 and their fragility about how they received the way I reached the results that they needed.

Speaker 3 Jesus. And times 10, if you're a woman of color.

Speaker 1 Yes. Of course.

Speaker 1 Times a bazillion.

Speaker 4 Times a bazillion.

Speaker 3 I mean, a man is passionate. You know, a man shows big wisdom and emotion, and he's passionate and ambitious, and he's a good leader.

Speaker 3 A woman shows the same passion and attention to detail and she is a controlling and emotional and mean and unkind and ambitious, which has a negative connotation if you attach it to a woman as opposed to a man.

Speaker 3 I mean, I over and over again,

Speaker 3 you know, you know this, sister. I've had partners we respect very much call me and say, okay, so I have the answers to your question because I know you're a control freak.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 3 it's like, wait, if I were a man and I had asked a question about my own business, about, you know, a business that I am, like, I had a question about my business. So I'm a control freak.

Speaker 3 It's just nothing that they would ever, ever say. And, and like, the idea of women who ask questions about their own lives

Speaker 3 being difficult.

Speaker 3 I mean, I remember someone saying to me, well, y'all, you know, you just have to be careful.

Speaker 3 People are going to call you difficult to work with.

Speaker 1 It's bullshit.

Speaker 3 And I remember thinking, you know what?

Speaker 3 What happens when you're a woman and you get to a table of any sort of leadership? What happens is you actually realize how much mediocrity is going on at that table. Like how much

Speaker 3 you have worked so hard to get there and you've had to be perfect because you're a woman. If you're a woman of color, you've had to be perfect times 40.

Speaker 3 And so you get there and you are excellent.

Speaker 4 Okay, because you've had to be.

Speaker 3 And then you see how much freaking mediocrity

Speaker 3 is at that table, is allowed at that table. Right.
And so you start challenging it and asking questions, and that is difficult to them. Yep.
That is what's difficult.

Speaker 3 I once said, look, my team is not difficult to work with. My team is difficult as all hell not to work with.

Speaker 3 You're just not working. If you work with us, we're not difficult.
We're difficult to not be working with. Work harder, do better, and we'll all be fine.

Speaker 1 This is why more women.

Speaker 1 This is why more women need to be in leadership positions because when they call us difficult, I know deeply, and we have to change this, but I know deeply that it's because we're being detailed and we're calling them out and we're actually requiring more of the people around us.

Speaker 1 That's exactly right. Challenging mediocrity.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And go ahead.
Sorry.

Speaker 4 No, I was just going to say to any

Speaker 4 to and then you say these things and people are like, ah, you're making that up. You make everything about gender.
But what I want to say about that is that

Speaker 4 you, when you are walking walking through the world and working in the world as a woman,

Speaker 4 it is not that you're making everything about gender. It is that everything that you do is received and interpreted through the lens of your gender.
That's right.

Speaker 4 You don't get to, you don't get to just do something. You are doing things as a woman.
And so, so for example, they did this study of the, of composers, okay?

Speaker 4 The, they compose the music, the music gets played, okay?

Speaker 4 they um studied the critics response to the music when they knew it was a male composer and when they knew it was a woman composer um when they knew it was a a male composer they evaluated based on the technical musical attributes when they knew that it was a woman composer they said things about the perception of her mood.

Speaker 4 No. They said, yes, they did.
They said, she's pissed about something.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 What's wrong with people?

Speaker 4 This is her musical composition. So when you say,

Speaker 4 when you're a man and you say, may you make everything about gender, I say, you get to be over there just creating music. Okay.
That's why you don't have to think about music.

Speaker 4 That's why you don't have to think about gender. I'm over here creating music and I am being aggressive and angry.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Which is why I don't get to just create music. You get to create music.
So you get to discount gender.

Speaker 3 that's right that's why you know it's it's the opportunity cost and and and think about when when race is applied also

Speaker 3 right that now you're seeing me you're i'm making music but you're experiencing it through my gender and my race

Speaker 3 It's not even about the music anymore. It's like what I said in the beauty, what I found over and over again through when I put work out in the world.

Speaker 3 So when my male colleagues put work out into the world,

Speaker 3 the world looks at the work and judges it.

Speaker 3 When I put work out in the world, the world looks at me and judges me.

Speaker 3 Nobody's ever even talking about my writing. Is it me? Like, is she a bitch?

Speaker 1 Is she blah? Is she,

Speaker 3 it's, does she even have a right to put work out into the world?

Speaker 3 We have to shut her up before we even look at the work.

Speaker 1 Yep.

Speaker 3 Right? It's so,

Speaker 1 wow.

Speaker 3 And the opportunity cost of that, like when you think, I can't remember who it was, but, you know, someone talking about, I think it was a black woman writer. I'll have to look this up.

Speaker 3 And she was, wouldn't it be lovely if we could also just write about life?

Speaker 1 Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 4 Oh, that's like how Lovey's book

Speaker 4 keeps getting put in racial studies categories in every bookstore.

Speaker 4 And she, so because she is a black woman, her writing is categorized as racial theory. Okay.

Speaker 3 And she's writing about her.

Speaker 4 She is writing about her life and fighting fear.

Speaker 1 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 That's right.

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Speaker 4 Gee, do you ever feel trapped in gender roles?

Speaker 3 Well, yeah, I mean, a million times every day. I guess

Speaker 3 something that I've been thinking about lately is in terms of career,

Speaker 3 in terms of you know, decisions about what to do next as a woman in the world.

Speaker 3 I actually measure opportunities differently in terms of exposure. Okay.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 I don't, you know, I have a friend who recently, she's a teacher, one of my dear friends, and she had an opportunity to become the principal of the school. And she was like, Glennon, I don't know.

Speaker 3 Like, I know how people judge women in charge, in power.

Speaker 3 Like, why? It's like putting a target on my own back. Like, there's the, there's the want, there's the fight inside of the woman that's like, yes, I want to take that on.

Speaker 3 I want to like change the world for my daughters, and yada ya. And then there's the part of the woman who's what's like, I know the world,

Speaker 3 like, I know that I will make decisions. Like, that you know, Abby and I say this all the time, and half the time we're joking, but actually, we're not.
And that, why do all of these things happen?

Speaker 3 Because the world hates women, that's right,

Speaker 3 the world hates women, so and and and the world really hates women who dare to be

Speaker 1 out there and

Speaker 3 you know,

Speaker 3 ambitious and successful successful and exposed and you know it reminds me of that when in in miss americana which we loved so much because taylor swift has dealt with so much of this

Speaker 3 where she said i just hope i can you know survive a while longer because i know that the world will only tolerate a successful woman for so long oh and that's the damn truth so i mean i would say in terms of trappedness

Speaker 3 i measure exposure based on what I know about what the world will tolerate from a public woman.

Speaker 1 That's right.

Speaker 3 And also, I have a specific brand of a gender role within a gender, which is that I'm a very femme woman,

Speaker 3 like I present in a very femme way.

Speaker 3 And so I have had something that I've dealt with my entire career,

Speaker 3 which

Speaker 3 is that people, when I speak somewhere, or I would,

Speaker 3 people say some version of,

Speaker 3 you're so smart.

Speaker 3 Okay. Like I've had entire articles written about me over and over again, calling me a Trojan horse.

Speaker 3 Okay. And I used to think that was so cool until I thought about it more deeply.

Speaker 3 And basically what I think people say are what they're trying to say without saying it, without knowing this is what they're saying is, I look at you.

Speaker 3 And I think you're going to be stupid and vapid and have nothing important to say.

Speaker 3 And then you open your mouth and I'm surprised pleasantly that you can like form sentences. And I'm like, but I'm a New York Times best-selling author and actor.
Like, what did you expect?

Speaker 3 Like, what?

Speaker 3 So there's this thing I'm constantly fighting, which is like the expectation of idiocy.

Speaker 1 Yep.

Speaker 3 With a femme or this like puffy, like, I don't know if people think I'm going to start talking about like rainbows and unicorns and clouds and shit and stickers and kittens.

Speaker 3 Like, I'm not exactly sure. Stickers.

Speaker 3 So what about you, babe? What about you and your check? Because you have a totally different, obviously, experience than I do.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, I think it's kind of interesting. All of us have very different experiences.

Speaker 1 I think I get trapped inside the male gender role a lot.

Speaker 1 And as it relates to like yours and my marriage, it happens all the time. So we're at a restaurant, when they bring the check, they give it to me.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Pisses me off.

Speaker 1 When we're at the bank, you know, there's, there's husband and wife.

Speaker 1 And even when we're in business meetings,

Speaker 1 I don't know if you notice this, babe. Actually, no.

Speaker 1 I do notice this. I do know you do.
Sister, I don't know if you notice this. We're in literally a business meeting for Glennon's business.
I'm just like. I'm just like the side piece.

Speaker 1 I'm just the wife over here.

Speaker 1 And they will make more eye contact with me

Speaker 1 than they do with Glennon, talking about the future project that they want to do with Glennon.

Speaker 1 And like, there are times where they're looking at me, and I actually have to point to Glennon and be like, talk to her. Like, don't, don't do this.
Like, talk to her because you're losing.

Speaker 1 Like, let me just tell you right now, you have lost this pitch because she's never going into business with you. But, but, yeah, so here I am.
Like,

Speaker 1 and by the way, the irony in that, and I don't, I hope this isn't telling too much, honey, but like in our marriage, I am more of the stay-at-home parent than you are, even though we're both home and we work from home.

Speaker 1 Um, you know, I'm taking the kids to their sporting events and all the stuff.

Speaker 1 So, like, you're actually, you should actually be more male-gendered in our marriage in terms of the way that the gender roles and the norms are seen in the world.

Speaker 1 So, I just think, I think it's really interesting.

Speaker 4 Well, I I think it's about, I mean, that gender role is about

Speaker 4 authority. It's about authority, right?

Speaker 1 I mean, that's the whole old school head of household.

Speaker 4 It's, it's, it's, this is the head of the household. This is the person who's voting on behalf of the household.
This is the, so it, if I can convince the person at the highest order of this,

Speaker 4 then

Speaker 4 I've closed the deal.

Speaker 3 Yes. And I think that we really do.
Two women in a marriage who are handling their business is something that freaks the living hell out of every patriarchal bone in people's bodies.

Speaker 3 I feel that it is like the ultimate threat to the patriarchy because it's like two women who don't need

Speaker 3 you,

Speaker 3 like who don't need your roles, who don't need

Speaker 3 a man, like not for money, not for power, not for a job, not for an orgasm. Like

Speaker 3 it's it's a threat right it's a complete challenge to what we have decided we need in terms of order and people playing roles i wonder like destroying the whole stage yes but i wonder from like a man's perspective what would be the most threatening like out of all the things you said orgasm power money

Speaker 1 um like what would be the most

Speaker 1 like the highest

Speaker 4 list i'll tell you what it is oh it is a

Speaker 4 it's a gender conforming trans man

Speaker 4 is the greatest threat. It is, um,

Speaker 4 it's the idea of distinctiveness threat. So anyone who,

Speaker 4 anyone whose identity

Speaker 4 is

Speaker 4 tied

Speaker 4 very, very closely with the gender binary. So if I am a dude's dude, I place my I place so much of my identity in my maleness, my man-ness,

Speaker 4 then any time there is a threat to the boundary around my

Speaker 4 identity group. So man,

Speaker 4 okay, that is the stark boundary. It is everything that has to do with my identity.
When you start to blur and shift those lines to let into my group, a

Speaker 4 person

Speaker 4 who was assigned female at birth, who passes as a man, gets the respect of a man,

Speaker 4 is allowed to have

Speaker 4 my identity denomination, that is the biggest threat to me. It is why TERFs can't handle

Speaker 4 gender-conforming

Speaker 4 trans women.

Speaker 3 That's right.

Speaker 3 Okay, so we're going to go into the next right thing because we have so many beautiful, beautiful freaking questions questions about gender roles that we're going to save them all for our next episode.

Speaker 3 But let's end with this. For our next right thing, here's what I know.
We need help from our pod squad. Okay.

Speaker 3 For all of those of you who

Speaker 3 identified or want to help with this idea that even when people are well-intentioned, we might be kinder to

Speaker 3 have a different non-gendered

Speaker 3 address.

Speaker 3 Help us think of one. Like, is it y'all?

Speaker 3 You know, y'all's sweet, but it just feels very southern to me. So, whenever I'm saying y'all, I feel like an imposter.

Speaker 3 Folks, friends,

Speaker 3 do we just leave it off? Because, really, do you have to say thank you, ma'am? Can't you just say thank you very much?

Speaker 1 That's right.

Speaker 3 We need your ideas.

Speaker 4 Like, why do we even have to do that?

Speaker 1 It's so bizarre. We need your ideas.
And also, I think in terms of creating a new word or a new phrase, like you say, Glennon, there's always a third way. It doesn't have to be man or woman.

Speaker 1 Like there's there, we just have to go ahead and create it. So like, let's just go make the world the place, the most beautiful, truest, beautiful place we can imagine.

Speaker 4 And for folks for whom that is deeply uncomfortable, for I mean, I went to the University of Virginia. I know how strongly folks feel about their sir and their ma'am.

Speaker 4 And I feel

Speaker 4 what I would just say to the people who feel real uncomfortable with that is ask yourself, are you saying those things because you deeply want to show respect for a person?

Speaker 4 If so, please, please realize that

Speaker 4 that outcome is the opposite for the people that you meet who you are misgendering. That's right.

Speaker 3 Also,

Speaker 4 ask yourself if that doesn't resolve the situation for you. Are you actually more deeply committed to showing respect for folks?

Speaker 4 Or are you more deeply committed to identifying yourself as someone who knows the difference between

Speaker 4 how to be polite and how not to be polite? Because it is very possible that you are afraid of losing your identity and distinguishing yourself from other people who don't know better

Speaker 4 so that you are othering people all the time.

Speaker 1 That's really good.

Speaker 3 Thank you, sister. And if, and, you know, over and over again, what, what we learn when we enter any sort of conversation about race as a white woman, I know my intention

Speaker 3 is much, much less important than the actual outcome. So over and over again, we're saying the impact, right?

Speaker 3 If, if over and over again, but my intention is this, and someone else on the other side is saying, but the outcome is this, but the impact is this,

Speaker 3 right? We let goes of the buts and the intention and we listen to the outcome and the impact.

Speaker 3 Okay, so thank you so much. I mean, I think that there's nothing more

Speaker 3 true to the we can do hard things idea than just really having these tricky conversations that hopefully guide us towards maybe an uncomfortable, awkward.

Speaker 3 Sometimes it feels like someone's pulling like a block out of the whole Jenga thing we've built and it's all going to fall apart. And I love that feeling, right? So thank you for

Speaker 3 allowing us to sometimes make things awkward because blessed are the awkward because they shall move things forward.

Speaker 3 When things get hard this week, y'all, folks. Don't forget we can do hard things.

Speaker 3 Thanks, y'all.

Speaker 3 We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 3 Especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it.
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